CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Tyll Hertsens on July 18, 2013, 09:22:51 PM
-
My review is up: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/jps-labs-abyss-ab-1266-planar-magnetic-headphones (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/jps-labs-abyss-ab-1266-planar-magnetic-headphones)
I'm wondering if other have heard the low-level noise confusing the treble that I did?
Pretty obvious on the measurements in the impulse and 300Hz square wave response.
(http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/JPSLabs_AbyssAB1266_Graph_Measurements.jpg)
Have you measured them yet Marv?
-
That IR and square looks super zingy and noisy, Tyll. Excited to read your review to see if that comes through in the sound as well. It seems like it's so fast that it can't control itself. Reading now.
-
Agreed on nearly all points. The speed, spaciousness, and bass all quite impressed me, and when fit was figured out comfort wasn't all that bad. The hollowness in the midrange was the only thing I really felt bothered me but it depended on musical style. Top end was really bothersome with a few types of DSD files, but when I switched to normal stuff nothing stuck out as offensive in the treble for me. Wasn't super focused on that range when listening though.
Oh, also totally agreed on the L-2/HD800 pairing.
-
Have you measured them yet Marv?
Just did on my new measurement rig. Checking a few things to make double sure. Very similar to your results. My comments (some edits) in an e-mail a few hours ago. Seems we are hearing some of the many of the same things.
Try any high res really-well-recorded bass drum track while wearing them loose and it sounds just like the skin of a particular drum being picked up by a particular microphone connected by a particular cable, absolutely the way it was recorded at that location and point in time- Or at least to me.. :) .
^ Yup.
I’m also astounded by the layering and separation. Lots of stuff going on and you can pick out individual stuff when things get really busy. Really jaw dropping in that regards. I haven’t measured it yet, but do I hear some excess energy (ringing) past the sibilance region (also noted this before on the two units at THE SHOW), but it’s minor and mostly unnoticeable after the amp warms up. (In my experience, Alex’s amps need at least an hour of warm up. Two is better.). I think the fact that the driver was designed to be very open (no need for layers and layers of damping material) really helps with this.
Also sounds like ~5k is slightly recessed (not as much bite as I’m usually use to, but upper mid/lower treble recess is more often than not a good thing, at least for my preferences) and a narrow bump in the mids / vocals or vocal harmonic region. Cloud region is very flat (I like it this way – brings clarity – but I know others will like more warmth). Perhaps some slight emphasis in the lower bass. Just being extremely nitpicky (as in most people won’t hear these things).. Bass quality is out of this world. Overall I absolutely love the overall spectral balance. Reminds me very much of my current speaker reference (surgically EQ’d).
Treble is a bit rougher than the STAX, but the Abyss brings a lot more to the table. Better speaker like tonal balance and some balls. Pow Pow Bam Bam, etc. and doing it accurately too (no artificial emphasis).
I'm wondering if other have heard the low-level noise confusing the treble that I did?
I thought I heard ringing at 9-10k if this is what you are referring to. Only tried half a dozen tracks before I had to go to work. Measurements show 8-9kHz. I think distortion measurements may explain some of this low-level noise (I think I know what you a talking about and I've heard this behavior before with other planars.) I'll get measurements up soon.
-
I didn't hear them as extensively as others, but I guess it could be that the tremble emphasis I perceived might have been due to the FR unevenness in the tremble area + non-linear distortion, but dunno. The hollowness in the midrange might have contributed to what I perceived as a little "wonky-ness". From IF measurements, these seem to measure close to the HE400s FR wise (and SW wise), but with the distortion issues moving from the mids to the tremble.
Really good article BTW Tyll! :money:
I also felt these cans had great bass extension/impact, speed, and soundstage with some possible deficiencies in the high-mids and tremble area. I thought they were a little bass emphasized (and I really mean a little), but that might have been the choice of tracks and the headphones I used for comparison which roll off in the lower to mid bass area. It could also be the small drop in the 150 Hz area relative to the 30 to 60 Hz area.
-
I am almost positive the leanness we heard was a result of the source at THE SHOW.
-
Could be Mytekness issues...
-
When I put them on my measurement head, I found that if they didn't seal (albeit lightly) the bass had some phase problems. It seemed to me you do want it to "seal" around your ears, just not with a lot of force.
-
Could be Mytekness issues...
Feel free to swing by and listen.
-
Let me know what time is a good time Marv.
-
So before I post Abyss measurements, I'm going to tease you guys. My sponge measurement rig is no more. I've built a new one which simplifies workflow (I used to take two measurements, one with sponge and one with a solid-plate.) In other words, all future measurements will not necessarily be comparable to the old ones. I will indicate new measurements with a "V2".
In order to establish a reference, since measurements are still relative and I make no claims of accuracy (other than any subjective references to my reference speaker system), I will provide a few measurements of some other well known headphones first.
-
Oh geebus, get on with it!
walk the plank
-
Oh, and really nice impression posts above. Thanks for that!
-
One more to tease. Actually these "checks" are more for myself. AB-1266 is next. (Why does AB-1266 sounds like some nationalistic-fascist CA law prohibiting eating rare steak.)
-
AB-1266 MEASUREMENTS!
Here is the FR and distortion for left
1/6 octave smoothing
90db SPL/A white noise
-
Left CSD
-
Right channel
-
Seems some ringing going on in the 8 to 10 kHz area... Bass is cleaner than the HD600, but man technically the HE500 is hard to beat in that area.
-
Look closer in the 50Hz to 120Hz area for distortion. Most "bass" will reside from 50-120. AB-1266 is 7-10db cleaner in that region compared to HE-500. Also note spike at 9k. Perhaps this is what Tyll was referring to with the low level treble noise.
-
The bass difference seems to be that the Abyss has a considerably cleaner midbass, but does not deliver in low~sub-bass nearly as well as HE500 (as shown by the quick FR roll-off and subsequent distortion hump under 50 Hz). Could be seal-related?
Interesting how the Abyss has a similar 4-6kHz behaviour as HE500 though, where there is a big FR notch but is in fact much more benign in the CSD.
Really love the conciseness of the new plots format...gonna miss the old isometric 3D CSDs though.. there's just something about seeing an isometric plot that feels really intuitive to take in.
-
It is interesting re that upper mid dip - when A-Bing, it is more evident but when listening the overall tonal balance feels very smooth ( I would even dare to say less congested than a headphone which measures more smoothly across this region ). I am aware of an edge at the top end of a trumpet blast , but again would never call them glaring or overly sharp - that peak you measure probably accounts for some of this ( again when directly compared to something like RDs T50rp - I feel the paradox has this same presence as the AB1266 )
Not as clean as I thought they might measure based on sound, they are still one of the best headphone experiences I have ever enjoyed.
thanks Purrin and Tyll for the data and time put into this.
..dB
-
Really liked the review Tyll. I appreciate the honesty in the review. No headphone is perfect and I am happy that you discussed the strengths and weaknesses. Not only that, but you did it in a very articulate and well thought out review, rather than the love it or hate it reviews I see all the time.
Regarding the 8-9 khz peak. Do you guys think this is related to the "rough ortho treble" problem that has been discussed here? I am wondering if it is just an inherent flaw of orthos? I think it is interesting that many of the ortho's are cited as having excellent bass. Do you think that is another common strength of orthos (besides the HE-6)?
Also, do you think that the Abyss will be very amp dependent? The Burson is laid back in the treble area from what I heard during my brief listen.
-
Also, do you think that the Abyss will be very amp dependent? The Burson is laid back in the treble area from what I heard during my brief listen.
Yes. No doubt. Amp and DAC dependent. My Mjolnir has become laid-back sounding over time to the point where it handled the treble peak very well. (It was initially on the unrelenting / "dogmatically vigilant" when new.)
The Burson HA160 (if that is what you are referring to) is also laid back, but that may not gel well with the slight depression near 5k. I don't think the depression near 5k sounds as deep as measured. I've seen this characteristic with planar type drivers and wonder if it's not at least partially a measurement artifact. (see SR-Omega, HE-500, etc.)
-
Regarding the 5k depression and my suspicions that at least part of it is a cancellation artifact:
HE-500 (approximate figures)
Pad inner diameter = 5.75 cm
Dip = 6kHz
6kHz Wavelength = 5.7 cm
AB-1266 (approx. figures)
Pad inner diameter (top-bottom) = 7.0 cm
Dip = 5kHz
5kHz Wavelength = 6.9 cm
-
More subjective impressions extracted from shoutbox:
purrin:
Gotta go
Today at 01:05:06 PM
purrin:
I think the secret to the Abyss is how open it is. They designed to driver to require minimal damping. And without the out of control behavior that usually comes with minimally damped designs. In other words, the driver is near ideally damped as it is.
Today at 01:04:51 PM
purrin:
What I like most about it. It sounds like my EQ'd speaker setup (overall presentation)
Today at 01:03:29 PM
Elysian:
I do like the HE60 for the speed and immediacy, which is something the 007/009 does not have as pronounced. For the Abyss, I wonder how much the performance is tied to the driver tech and materials, as opposed to geometry (how far the drivers are from one's ears and anything else that would affect general acoustics).
Today at 01:02:51 PM
Elysian:
Very interesting. I'm likely picking up a LCD3 tomorrow. Been enjoying orthos more than stats overall, though I don't think I'll get rid of my stats. Will keep a close eye out for meet impressions.
Today at 01:01:54 PM
purrin:
But I'm an oddball anyways because I've always preferred my modded Jades over the STAX 007/009. Just not into the STAX "ethereal" sound. Also like the Orpheus, which IMO doesn't have the STAX "etheral" sound either.
Today at 01:01:41 PM
dBel84:
thanks for the initial feedback , mimics much of my own experience
Today at 01:00:40 PM
purrin:
No measurements yet. Gotta hit a meeting for work soon. Maybe late tonight.
Today at 12:58:04 PM
purrin:
The Abyss doesn't have that much of a downward tilt as the 007. I think layering and very fine detail extraction is better too on the Abyss. That's with my DAC. Layering could rival 009, but I think Abyss is still better than 009 at extraction of low level information.
Today at 12:57:27 PM
purrin:
Also Abyss less laid back as 007mk1. 007mk1 is great because its fairly smooth - no rough edges. Abyss is probably a little rougher in the treble. But Abyss bass kills 007 bass. More articulate, more power, more accurate, deeper, lower.
Today at 12:54:21 PM
purrin:
Closest to Abyss would be 007mk1. But again Abyss has balls.
Today at 12:52:47 PM
purrin:
For the meet. Helping Alex and Joe out since they couldn't make it.
Today at 12:51:40 PM
purrin:
Some things better, some things not as good. But keep in mind I've never really liked the 009 that much. Abyss has balls.
Today at 12:51:21 PM
Elysian:
Did you buy the Abyss, or do you have it on loan?
Today at 12:51:21 PM
purrin:
I think it's better.
Today at 12:50:36 PM
iRo:
1 million question would be - is it better than 007 and 009? Looking forward to more impressions about Abyss.
-
I like the 3D plots better as well, but other than that, they seem to jive very well with mine.
I like the new rig, Marv. Good stuff.
-
Sounds like abyss would have been the headphone I always wanted-- too bad it's 5k.
I actually like a recession in the upper mid-lower treble area. Finesse and speed of a stat with the muscle-bass of a planar magnetic and that tonal balance-- but it's 5k. :(
-
Also notice that 500Hz ridge which matched the blip in my FR measurements that I suspect is the primary diaphragm resonance. I guess that's the downside of not having much damping.
I don't think I paid enough attention listening for it, but it was there in your notes.
Ah well, they're shipped back to JPS now. Very interesting headphone.
I bet 5 years from now the model (or its decedent) will sound pretty darned good.
-
The unimpressive distortion and treble roughness were expected given the design. I do wonder if they thought to minimize distortion via spacer thickness experimentation. Interested in hearing these this weekend...I'm expecting them to sound really open for an ortho given the lack of many materials on the back side. Has anybody tried to run their LCDs without that thick jute mat-like square patch? I imagine they'll sacrifice some square wave performance for a larger/less cluttered soundstage.
Marv: Is there any way to change the units on the y-axis to something more intuitive than .41 ms? I also kinda miss seeing both channel FR plots on the same graph so we can easily spot channel imbalances.
Stapsy: Ortho bass impact is due in large part to the excursion of the diaphragm. Stronger magnets can increase the strength of the field as well. As for the treble issue, I have a feeling it has to do with the metal trace. I have a rough idea of how to fix that but I'll have to research a bit more.
-
Interesting stuff here, I think Tyll and yourself gave me a good idea on what the Abyss may sound like to myself. Locally in Singapore we do have the Abyss but almost no decent amp to drive it with(its demoing at Jaben and Burson's distro is elsewhere).
Also, I concur I like the 3d plots better though on the 2d plots its easier to see the exact frequencies/ ring times. Any chance you could make them color more like geographic stuff like mountains?
-
Sounds like abyss would have been the headphone I always wanted-- too bad it's 5k.
I actually like a recession in the upper mid-lower treble area. Finesse and speed of a stat with the muscle-bass of a planar magnetic and that tonal balance-- but it's 5k. :(
I've now spent a little bit more time with them. I'm much closer to saying these are the headphones I've always wanted. Having dangerous thoughts of getting back into headphones (I'm a speaker guy now) and dipping into the HSA account (since the Un-Affordable Care Act will make my current HSA + catastrophic health insurance plan illegal in a few months.)
I know many of us have given JPS Labs a lot of shit, and frankly many of us expected it to sound like shit. But as I told Joe, prove me wrong. I think it's safe to say that he's proven me wrong. I don't think the AB-1266 takes top honors in many technicalities (HD800 is a better plankton extractor, distortion can be a little better, 007/009 have a more relaxed feel and smoother treble, a handful of headphones are more neutral, etc.) but the little things it does well add up to a complete package for me. I certainly believe it belongs in the Pirate's Booty. I'm not quite ready to say it's my favorite so far - mainly because I haven't spent too much time with TOTL headphones lately and need to re-acclimate myself. As Tyll implied in his review, it's one of those things where you don't think about the technicalities - they are "thrown out of the window" and "what really matters is the listening experience."
As to the noise in the mid-treble, the measurements would seem to indicate something there, but honestly I don't hear it with my regular set of test tracks (composed of a good mix of good recordings and many marginal recordings). The DAC I used was the PS Audio PWD2 (upgraded 1) running firmware 2.03 with filter 1. OR5 handed USB to I2S conversion duty. JRiver MC18 was used and all recordings up-sampled in MC to 176 or 192. PC was an earlier Core 2 based MacMini running Windows 7. Amps used were the Cavalli Liquid Gold and Schiit Mjolnir. The DAC hasn't been turned off since I don't know when. Both amps were turned on at 7am in the morning and have been left on all day. The treble peak is audible, the treble seems slightly rough, but these issues were minor to me (I'm probably used to the treble irregularities of my wide-bander speakers, despite super-tweeter help.)
Other tidbit: the frame allows us to swivel the drivers inward. This does change the staging. I angled the drivers in as much as possible. I wore the cups low and forward. The thickest part of the cushion was at the 8 o'clock position. The staging in excellent. Good center focus. Not as wide as HD800, which I do think is a bit on the diffuse side. Very open. An openness that goes on and on and on.
ultrabike came by. I'm sure he will add his 2 cents.
-
More measurements
- L+R
- 30Hz Square
- 300Hz Square
-
CSDs (regular ol' visualization)
Interesting how the treble ringing is a shift from the peak. Subjectively earlier (before measurements were taken), I felt the treble peak was past the sibilance region. I thought it a bit odd that I saw a peak at 8kHz (which is smack in the middle of the sibilance region and not a good spot (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,71.msg26631.html#msg26631)). It turns out the ringing behavior gets shifted upward from the peak to 9-10kHz (what audio engineers know as the "tape hiss" or "definition" region), which amazingly believe it or not (at least to me) is much more tolerable than if it were at 8kHz.
-
Has anybody tried to run their LCDs without that thick jute mat-like square patch?
Yup. Bass-o-matic. Think Darth Beyer. Possibly worse. I may even have a measurement somewhere.
-
Has anybody tried to run their LCDs without that thick jute mat-like square patch? I imagine they'll sacrifice some square wave performance for a larger/less cluttered soundstage.
I'd be really curious about this, too.
-
Thanks for letting me take a listen Marv!
Sound
Probably the best bass reproduction I ever heard. Bass rendering and impact is definitively one of the main strengths of these cans. In that sense I guess they are fun, but not basshead crazy nor mushy. Bass quality was not sacrificed for quantity.
The mids are also pretty good. IMO vocals have good presence, though a little "hollow". As if the vocals had some sort of room coloration. This could be due to the upper mid range FR deep, but I'm not sure.
They are not tremble shy at all, but they are no Grados either. There might be some sort of tremble noise there perhaps due to THD non-linear distortion levels in the same region.
This is not a perfect headphone, but it is unique and definitively not offensive sounding...
Confort
Actually going from memory these are lighter and easier to wear than Audezes, so it those are not-a-problem for your noggin then these will be an improvement. However, don't expect them to be lighter than a pair of HD600 and such.
I also played around by pressing them against my head to get a light seal, but I didn't perceive a significant improvement in sound quality. However, rotating them around degraded SQ IMO, so I just let them be their un-seal-y selves.
Presentation
Nice set of accessories, but as far as the headphones go...
(http://www.cvltnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/head-crusher2-550x733.jpg)
Price
As far as the price... Well, yeah... Can't afford them... California PowerBall (Loto) is currently $141 million so maybe...
Overall
Unique sound signature... in a good way, unique presentation... in a bad way.
-
Uh, the Abyss measurements look like what I heard with my pair of Beyer T70p before they died in a damping accident.
Including the 8-9k ringing. The only difference is that those were a bit more rolled off at both ends, which would especially affect bass.
A tiny bit peakier in the mids too.
My pair was way less bright than what Purrin measured with his T70p.
Huh?! :)p12
Of course, I'd rather hear it first before concluding they sound the same, but this might be hard to arrange.
-
Dunno mang, the T70P do look a little brighter:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=182.0;attach=869;image)
My pair was way less bright than what Purrin measured with his T70p.
Ah!!! Seems you were one of the lucky few! I think Tyll measured 3 T70p's and they all had behemothic K2 level tremble peaks:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT70250Ohmsn01111.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT70250Ohmsn01111.pdf)
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT70250Ohm.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT70250Ohm.pdf)
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT70p.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT70p.pdf)
The good news is that the Abyss don't seem to sound like an average T70p.
-
T70P FR as posted by RD:
(http://pubs.usgs.gov/gip/dynamic/graphics/Half_Dome.gif)
-
By "Behemotic" you mean 6 dB peak. Mine only had 2 dB, much better.
The main difference being that in Abyss, the ringing is hidden by a highs dip, while in T70p it's not.
-
By "Behemotic" you mean 6 dB peak. Mine only had 2 dB, much better.
The main difference being that in Abyss, the ringing is hidden by a highs dip, while in T70p it's not.
:)p13 Yes, 2 dB would actually be pretty good IMO.
Another consideration would be that the typical T70p is a closed can that while bright it has very little presence in the high tremble region (>15 kHz - almost no air) which may affect soundstage. The Abyss does not seem to have this (air/soundstage) problem... It has others tho... (http://www.moviedeaths.com/phorum/smileys/frankenstein.gif)
-
It's nice to see some data on these! A big thanks to Tyll and Purrin. Really helps to put what I've been hearing into perspective and helps me understand why I like them so much.
I wish I could have written more about these, but I've got a lot of stuff going on right now. I pretty much agree with a lot of what has been said however. The treble is definitely not as refined as the Staxen, no surprise there. Most of the time it's not an issue for me however. In terms of overall balance I *much* prefer the Abyss to the SR-009 most of the time as well. From a pure engineering standpoint, I really think JPS got most of this headphone right. I'm inclined to believe that they spent a lot of time testing out configurations of materials and *listening* to these things, and it shows.
-
The ringing shift is very strange. Have you ever seen another HP or speaker do that?
Also, how do you think the price is broken down? Are we paying for JPS labs R&D or the actual manufacturing costs. I hate the idea of paying for R&D, though that is probably the economist in me. Seems like that is the business model for small/boutique companies.
-
Apparently we're paying JPS for R&D as well as tooling, which really annoys me. Joe or the other guy said something about it costing so much so they could recoup the cost of their new $50,000 laser engraver. It makes more economic sense for them to outsource the engraving work and offer the headphones at a more reasonable price. Can you imagine if Craig started selling a simple SPUD amp for $45,000 a pop and rationalized it with "well I bought a new 5-axis CNC and tube production plant so I gotta make my money back somehow." I guess it's a good way to collect equipment, but it shouldn't be supported by the community at all. I'm not really surprised they can get away with it though since this is a subjective-driven hobby.
-
That's like my kids' pediatrician saying his new jaundice yellow level skin detector / measurement gizmo cost $7000. I was thinking "boy, I'm sure I'm gonna pay for that". And I was right. He started mumbling stuff like jaundice causing mental retardation, causing my wife to get hysterical (this behavior is a totally understandable mother / child thing). The implication here of course is our baby needed additional specialized treatment = more money for him.
I wasn't too worried because many Asian babies have jaundice when they are born - just two days under the sun and some pooping takes care of it. But I sure wanted to kick that doc's ass right then and there on the spot. Actually, it's not that bad. JPS isn't making my wife so hysterical to the point where I have to buy it.
-
That kind of thing really bugs me. You are right n3rdling. Purchasing the means of manufacture shouldn't increase the price of the product when it can be done third party. I am sure that it happens all the time, but don't try to use that to justify the price. Does that mean the price goes down once the cost of the new machinery has been paid off? If so sign me up for a pair in 6 months.
-
That kind of thing really bugs me. You are right n3rdling. Purchasing the means of manufacture shouldn't increase the price of the product when it can be done third party. I am sure that it happens all the time, but don't try to use that to justify the price. Does that mean the price goes down once the cost of the new machinery has been paid off? If so sign me up for a pair in 6 months.
Price on most non-uber rare things generally depreciates over time as the market becomes saturated and demand begins to decrease. Since price is one of the incentives that can cause product to move off the shelves, sure, it's likely that pricing on the Abyss will go down eventually. I doubt it will be a very substantial step down though, high-end headphones that aren't poorly designed seem to hold their value quite well.
Good to hear that the Abyss sounds good and that the product isn't a sham. I'd definitely like an opportunity to hear them, but I don't know if it'll ever be something I'd like to own just because they're really, really aesthetically unpleasing to my eyes.
-
Ok, I must be taking crazy pills or something.
I thought the whole point of the Abyss being "a sham" is the fact that it costs five [expletive deleted] thousand dollars.
Now I am reading that "hey, its strengths and weaknesses put it on par with other $1-2k headphones [edit: and that one other crazy overpriced one], so you know, you should check em out"
Did I miss the bus?
-
Ok, I must be taking crazy pills or something.
I thought the whole point of the Abyss being "a sham" is the fact that it costs five [expletive deleted] thousand dollars.
Now I am reading that "hey, its strengths and weaknesses put it on par with other $1-2k headphones, so you know, you should check em out"
Did I miss the bus?
Well it's also being matched up against another $5K set of cans (009s), so it's not too outrageous of a comparison.
-
I have a feeling a majority of the rebuttals will be based on escalation, precedent and good old capitalistic rationalization.
I suppose my issue boils down to: Why are we letting the market bear this?
-
I have a feeling a majority of the rebuttals will be based on escalation, precedent and good old capitalistic rationalization.
I suppose my issue boils down to: Why are we letting the market bear this?
Because people keeping paying. :&
-
Instead support people making reasonably priced headphones. Even Sennheiser is known to add a markup just to make extra buck, but it's not that egregious.
My personal fave is dr Fang & Hifiman. Very reasonable prices for the high quality. (Funny thing: they're 40% more expensive locally than at Head-Direct. Not even duty+VAT can account for this.)
Stax is not one of them, I mean they're good, but not $5k good if HD800 can match them with a some work, or even exceed them. Plus the interesting high voltage bias and special amps...
So, what else? Audeze? Overpriced if you ask me and QC is spotty.
Super overpriced Fostex TH900 with weird premium components and its less overpriced, but still, ancestor Denon AH-D7000? Not quite. I've read some funny audiofool remarks that those actually have proper bass reproduction, had a short laugh. :)p13 (At least TH900 is tolerable and low distortion, but that doesn't warrant the price at all.)
Air is pretty rare at the top. I'm not sure that something like Abyss can actually compete here with the best of them.
Taking a step back, there's some serious competition, we're talking the likes of Senn HD600, HD650, Beyer DT880, AKG K701, Hifiman HE400... and more.
I understand diminishing returns, but it's not even logarithmic, it's log^4 or worse in some cases.
-
Maybe *I'm* missing something, but what are "we" supposed to do?
First off I know of two people who purchased these, and one of them is me. I seriously doubt many head-fiers are going to be buying these anyway, and most of the sales are going to be outside of any social circles to which you or I belong.
Secondly, what should Tyll and Purrin say? I haven't seen either one condoning the price tag. Both expressed reservations about it, clearly. But then both also gave their honest opinion as to how these sound. Do you think they should say these sound awful because of the price tag? Do you think they should say it's a scam because of the price? Does that make the SR-009 a scam? What about the Orpheus?
Honestly, the folks who have been most vocally opposed to the Abyss seem to be distorting the situation a bit. I keep seeing comments about these being hyped on head-fi, for instance. What hype? So far the only "hype" has been a thread in which people have bitched to high heaven about the price, how ugly they look, how they're going to sound horrible, and how the world is going to come to an end and we'll all have the mark of the beast branded on our foreheads (a trademark sign, in JPS tradition). Supposedly newcomers are going to be duped into buying an Abyss because of all the gushing praise that has been lavished on them. Well, at this point if a newcomer did a search on head-fi I think they'd go running in the opposite direction.
Rationalization of exorbitant prices is nothing new in this hobby. Yet the rebuttals of these rebuttals are nothing new either: people will rationalize in the opposite direction. I've seen far more "anti-hype" for these headphones in the last few months: people wanting to play industry crusader or the victim card, Stax fans feeling threatened that their beloved ego-object will be dethroned, and so on. I'm already seeing the same folks on head-fi picking apart Tyll's statements and trying to spin his comments in the most negative light possible.
TL;DR version: My point is, I don't see any runaway hype for these anytime soon. The Abyss is going to have a tepid response *at best,* even with people like Tyll praising it. I honestly don't see the Abyss causing any industry waves.
-
The price is egregious. It's more expensive than already overpriced Stax and doesn't boast quality to match.
Seriously, this thing costs half a car. I'm pretty sure they're waiting for a few "sucker" sales to pay for the hardware to make these.
For comparison, it's 4x as expensive as Senn HD800. Is it even 2x better? Not likely with those charts.
It might be about on par with equalized HD800.
It looks like it is neutral, but the slight ringing and bit too long decay in mids will be the end of it and is likely not easily fixable.
(Unlike, say, traces of ringing in HE500 and its bass harmonic distortion.)
-
I think we've established that it's exorbitantly priced.
That wasn't the issue being discussed. The issue being discussed was why "we" were "allowing" such prices.
Edit: I love the head-fi arithmetic people come up with looking at measurements without any concrete experience. Like statements about how it might be on par with this or that equalized headphone costing X amount. Or comments about this or that measurement being the end of it without having actually heard the results.
I also love when people start talking about prices but don't factor the costs of upstream gear. Yeah, you can get an SR-009 for less. But you're going to need an amp that costs a few thousand on top of that. Meanwhile I've driven the Abyss quite nicely out of a $500 second-hand power amp.
-
You mean some people are not against such prices? facepalm
I'd like to meet them and ask them how many jet planes they own and whether I can have a ride.
It's a manufacturer's prerogative to set the price. Whether anyone will buy it is another question.
It's not even looking sleek enough to be a sculpture.
Really hardcore audiophiles could get a very good speaker setup including room treatment and amplification for this amount of money. (Whether they'd recognize those speakers is another matter entirely - there's about just as much junk on that market, if not more.)
Heck, even Fostex TH900 is bordering the territory of high fidelity speakers.
-
You mean some people are not against such prices? facepalm
I'd like to meet them and ask them how many jet planes they own and whether I can have a ride.
It's a manufacturer's prerogative to set the price. Whether anyone will buy it is another question.
It's not even looking sleek enough to be a sculpture.
Really hardcore audiophiles could get a very good speaker setup including room treatment and amplification for this amount of money. (Whether they'd recognize those speakers is another matter entirely - there's about just as much junk on that market, if not more.)
Heck, even Fostex TH900 is bordering the territory of high fidelity speakers.
No, I'm pretty sure most people are against the price of the Abyss. That's my point. Some folks are acting like the Abyss is garnering all this hype and people are condoning the price. This hasn't been my observation so far. That's why comments asking why folks are allowing such prices seem kind of weird to me. Just because Purrin and Tyll praise the Abyss doesn't mean they support the economy behind it.
Edit: Just to clarify further, my point is it seems like folks are already going to be "protesting" the Abyss' price so to speak in that most head-fiers---even those who buy ridiculously priced gear---are probably not going to be buying one. The people who are are probably the type of people who would buy it regardless of what gets said about it or not, and that sort of niche will always exist. I genuinely think though that in the case of the Abyss where there's a good product behind the price tag, one can discuss the product itself apart from price considerations and still be responsible, provided the price is mentioned as a caveat.
-
I think purrin pretty much saw my question for what it was and answered appropriately.
-
And no, you can't have a ride on one of my jets. They're all currently being refitted with gold interior paneling.
-
And Googlei's Girls are fully booked.
-
I feel the Abyss cans are indeed overpriced. I think they are not aesthetically pleasant. But they don't sound horrible. Like I said, to me they do bass very well. I cannot say these are the most neutral of phones, or clean across the entire audio frequency range. But they are pleasant. These are not analog modem sounding.
Now about the price... Yes, the price is too high. And I feel the same way about the higher end Stax. If one takes a look at an 009 FR it is not without coloration. It seems to have low distortion but does that justify the price tag? For some the answer might be yes, for others... No. All I can say is that the Abyss does not suck balls SQ wise. Would I buy them? Probably not... But I can say that about quite a bit of cans... Including the likes of an 009...
I'm still considering an HD600... And even then I think about it because I think the current price of the HD600 is a little high...
In a nutshell, the Abyss is not a performance / price can. But it does some things very well.
-
That kind of sensible response has no business on an audiophile forum.
That's too bad about equipment costs being factored into the Abyss. I hope that means they're in it for the long haul and will put together some competitive price-performance options. I don't think they're setting a very good precedent with their pricing. The 009 even at $3.3-3.4 is still a bit too rich for my blood, though I would've picked the 009 up if I was bowled over by them.
-
At least they sound good...after Tyll/Purrin review the only thing people really have to critique them on is the price and the aesthetics. IMO JPS stacked the odds against themselves with the high price. People are going to jump all over you when you come out of nowhere and charge 5.5K for the first pair of headphones you release. This is especially true when your existing product line consists of high price cables, power conditioners etc. These are the sorts of products that get people up in arms anyway. Is it overpriced? Probably...but the same could be said for the 009. This clearly isn't a product for everybody, the price itself is enough to keep 99% of people away. It genuinely sounds like they have developed something interesting...an open sounding ortho. Good for JPS labs. I would much rather have a 5.5k headphone that does something original vs something that sound like shit (which was most peoples' prediction).
-
Despite the price, I do have a deep appreciation of the AB-1266 for its uniqueness. I haven't conversed with Joe that much, but from what I can gather, JPS definitely had certain goals in mind. They selected a technology ("asymmetric ortho" for lack of a better term) knowing full well its strengths and weaknesses (openness, speed, articulation, layering vs. higher 2nd order distortion, other weird sonic stuff) and just went with it.
Joe did tell me he tuned them to mimic a high-performance two channel speaker system (presumably his reference) and I think that's pretty cool. To a large extent, I feel he's succeeded. I could only presume that some performance targets were met, others exceeded, and others not quite met.
I guess what I'm saying is that I get a sense of what JPS Labs was trying to aim for; and that what they were aiming for was something of merit. One of the reasons I started this site is because I got tired of WTF is this, and WTF is that with one too many headphones. Recall my 2012 State of the Headphone Hobby (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,487.msg8923.html#msg8923) manifesto?
I'll point out the $1000 HD700 (I mean WTF was that? Was the HD700 performance target designated by a committee of neophytes, dispassionate engineers, marketeers afraid of HD800 cannibalism, bean-counters, or a combination thereof?) What about the $2750 Ultrasone? Even the HD800 has serious issues (mind you that Anax, one of its stronger proponents here, runs it modded - and Jason@Schiit brings his HD800 to meets with a version of the Anax mod.)
I do think STAX had an idea what they were doing 009, but that's a $4250 headphone which requires at least an Electra or LL2 to do it justice if you can't DIY a KGSSHV. I'm running the AB-1266 from the LAu which is fricking awesome, but the fact is, the AB-1266 is still very highly capable with the $750 Mjolnir.
For all we know, Joe @ JPS probably heard the 009, and then switched to the AB-1266, and said to himself "buck that, I'm charging $5500 for the AB-1266."
I mean, I don't like the price, but it sucks to be me I guess.
-
Actually, it's not that bad. JPS isn't making my wife so hysterical to the point where I have to buy it.
Well, the "traditional" cure for hysteria is kinda interesting...
-
One picture - getting ready for the meet. HE-400 to the left of the LAu. AB-1266 on the lowest shelf. (see, it doesn't look that fugly from that angle!)
-
DAMN IT!!! The HE400 were right there and I did not compared them! I'm an idiot! But then that's nothing new.
Also, I think the Abyss look presidential in the lower shelf :P
-
Lego White House for the win!
I think that when a headphone leaps into a whole new price range the general populous is expecting (demanding?) something ground breaking, earth shattering, heaven opening... From what I'm reading I don't think the Abyss brings that to the table. That's going to be hard for many to accept.
Their performance seems to be on par with some of the other expensive offerings, in its own way, and buyers will be selecting it for many reasons other than price vs. performance.
-
Is asymmetric just having the magnetic structure on one side? If so, how does HE-4, HE-5 compare etc?
I can fully understand the strengths and weaknesses behind the asymmetric design, but it just seems weird they'd have the magnets between your ear and the frontwave, and not the backwave, for resonance reasons. Although I guess having the magnets on the front means better control of the sound that hits your ear.
-
I can fully understand the strengths and weaknesses behind the asymmetric design, but it just seems weird they'd have the magnets between your ear and the frontwave, and not the backwave, for resonance reasons. Although I guess having the magnets on the front means better control of the sound that hits your ear.
I think its mentioned somewhere that JPS tested both configurations and concluded that the config with magnet towards the ear performed better.
While its doesn't seem immediately obvious, think about it. With an obstruction in front, most of the sound waves are just going to bend around the obstruction and some of them(high frequency) will be reflected away from the ear = no major harm done.
OTOH, with the magnet towards the back the reflected sound waves would reach the ear after a slight delay from the original signal from the front creating an echo(Coomb's effect) which would probably be more of a sonic issue.
I am myself not fully convinced that, the magnet on the backside would cause any significant reflections since the frequency of waves reflected would most likely be ultrasonic (because of the miniscule distance).The effect of not having a reflective damping material otoh is very audible and has been discussed ad nauseum among orthoheads and tbh, having a critically damped ortho just by air is probably the holy grail for most of us nuts.
-
Okay, I'm torn. I'm definitely looking forward to hearing another great-sounding headphone at the show today, but the stratospheric pricing and medieval styling are bothering me. And I finally figured out why.
To understand, you have to know that I actually have two companies--Schiit, and Centric. Centric does marketing for a lot of different companies, and the list includes quite a few audio names that you know. So, what follows is some marketing advice for Abyss, offered in the spirit of constructive criticism:
1. Looks are key. Centric works with both audio and other luxury-goods companies. And when you come in at the very top end of the market, people expect a stunning product, in terms of looks, function, and sound. Yes, it's unfair. Yes, that's the way things work. We would have suggested working with an industrial designer.
2. The name doesn't do it. Again, luxury products have names, not video-camera alphanumerics. Especially when 1266 could be the year in which the headphones were styled. Why is this an AB-1266? Why not something expressive? We would have suggested a renaming before the product hit the market.
3. The logo doesn't do it. Rock band? More medieval references? If you want to say "state of the art", this is not it. We would have suggested a visual rebranding before launch.
4. There's no story. At this level, people want to know about the company behind the product, how it was made, how it is unique, how many thousands of hours went into its development, how it's qualified, its philosophy, its history, its technology. There's almost none of that on the website. At this level, again, connection with the people behind the product is key. We would have suggested developing this story in depth.
Now, this is meant as constructive criticism from the marketing side of things. This isn't meant to get more business for Centric, or to slam a fellow company selling gear. It's just perspective from 19 years of doing marketing for companies as large as Intel and as small as a single-person startup--and about two dozen audio companies along the way.
-
They've already been rocking the Abyss name, so I personally don't mind the serial number deal they got going on when most anybody could hear 'Abyss' and automatically think of these.
Other companies, however...
LCD2
LCD3
HD800
SR009
SR007
Yea..
As for the aesthetics, I don't mind the looks of the cups themselves with the spacious pads that show the inner magnetic structure and the machined aluminum and the exposed bolts/screws. The headband though? Holy shit that's a travesty. It's like TakeT H2+ tier.
-
[The effect of not having a reflective damping material otoh is very audible and has been discussed ad nauseum among orthoheads and tbh, having a critically damped ortho just by air is probably the holy grail for most of us nuts.
I can agree with that. Although I only have experience with the HE-400 of the Hifiman lineup, even though it's not as balanced as the Mad Dogs or refined as the LCD2, I dare say I like the way it presents sound better. It's much more layered and open sounding, making for a more dynamic sound. I assume the Abyss is just more of the same, especially given the no backwave magnet.
-
The HE-400 is nowhere near being critically damped, I would rather take any properly damped ortho. That driver needs damping but Hifiman chose not to provide any, probably because they thought that the side effects of a poorly researched damping scheme would be worse than applying none.At that price point, I won't blame them.
-
Oh, then I guess we fundamentally disagree then. Your original post was hard to get a read on.
I'm all for an open-air and damping-free planar as possible as long as there's minimal problems with resonances.
-
I guess dBel and I are the only ones who actually don't mind the way the Abyss looks.
Honestly, I don't see the Abyss targeting the general population anyway, even in terms of head-fidom. I know it's a question of degrees: the Abyss is even more expensive than a lot of other already expensive gear. Yet we're already talking about virtually nonexistent price v. performance value like Ultrabike said. Summit-fi is already so far outside the realm of normalcy that we're essentially talking about degrees of madness, and it admittedly seems a wee bit surreal to me for one madman to be calling another madman out because he happens to talk to his suppositories in a French accent rather than just, y'know, talking to them.
As if $4,000 for the SR-009 is admittedly exorbitant but ultimately permissible, or $6,700 for an R10 you can't replace is irresponsible but daring and motivationally fathomable. We can come up with any manner of justification, citing the questionable credentials of the manufacturer or something's supposed ugliness for one object while casting the other in the role of desirable artifact or collector's holy grail. Ultimately at the end of the day however the justifications are just that. It seems like few people want to openly admit to spending a ton of money on what basically amounts to frivolity in either case, on what is purely a luxurious indulgence.
-
Oh, then I guess we fundamentally disagree then. Your original post was hard to get a read on.
I'm all for an open-air and damping-free planar as possible as long as there's minimal problems with resonances.
I guess I should explain. A lot of us know that the best capacitor in the signal path is not having one. But does that mean that we should just stop using capacitors even where they are needed? Some of the best amplifiers known to us use a capacitor in signal path, ECBA comes to mind. The endeavour there is to use a capacitor which is as sonically transparent as possible.Many people have preferred the ECBA over lots of DC coupled designs.
Its the same with damping, its a necessary evil. It should be there when it is needed & when properly applied it provides considerable sonic benefits in terms of extension,linearity,speed, resolution and even soundstage.
Ofc, we would all love to have a headphone which can get by without any of the traditional damping. That is where a headphone like AB-1266 comes in, it seems that JPS guys have made a headphone which has come considerably closer to this ideal of 'damping just by air' than any other previous planar magnetic headphone.I personally think that this is a major technological advance for planar magnetic headphones and if JPS can iron out some of the flaws identified in the above posts, they would have a winner in their hands.
P.S. Purrin/Tyll : Would it be possible for any of you to measure these without the back grilles? I am mighty curious to know how these would behave just in the air without the effect of cups.
-
As guru has noted above, this is the key to the Abyss. You can tune most any ortho to have a reasonably flat frequency response, but to get it right without any real damping - that is a manufacturing challenge. The TOTL stats do this , but you need a stat rig to enjoy them and I am with purrin that I am not a fan of the "ethereal" stax sound.
I know people are making a fuss about the looks, truth is the SR009 looks like a POS when sitting on someones head - it has that funky spring arc that sticks up 10 cm above your head
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/d/d6/350x263px-LL-d6ef726f_Stax.jpeg)
and good looks don't make it look any better
(http://static.apple.nextmedia.com/images/apple-photos/apple_sub/20120629/large/29fu7p.jpg)
I absolutely don't care about the rugged industrial look, in fact I think they look quite rugged and industrial . I like it and the fact that they are comfortable and sound spectacular is the real kicker
price - having seen what it takes for Alex to get his amps to production, I can see many hidden manufacturing costs in the Abyss. I have a hard time justifying costs in audio as it is , but when I look at some of the craziness that we accept in the stereo world, paying $5K for a high end transducer seems far less crazy than paying $100K for the equivalent in a speaker. Even if we do not go to the extremes, take the $200 pioneer speakers which rocked the stereo world with their fidelity, does this mean that manufacturers such as sonus faber should rethink their product and not sell monitors for $15K. I am not trying to justify things for JPS BUT I can see where some of the costs come in ( without the whining and misguided assumption that they are trying to pay for expensive tooling required for the manufacture of the headphones) Most people drop $500 - $1000 on aftermarket cabling. Joe being a cable guy made what he considers the best cable suited to his headphone as part of the boutique accessory package. Many may ask why do they need a customized leather carry satchel , a complement of cable adapters and a headphone stand as part of the deal. If these were not included could the cost have been dropped by $1500 ? If I am reading into the idea behind the Abyss, you are buying the ultimate headphone package , "just add an amp" deal. I also think the package is seriously cool. Far more lust worthy than the stax briefcase of the SR007 series. Why did JPS not farm out the CNC work to another fabrication house - well they did initially and after suffering the seriously defunct manufacturing chain , they decided to do it in house . This was after RMAF ( when the price had already been announced, so not a factor in cost of the headphones at all ).
enough rambling , looking forward to more impressions. To my ears, music has never sounded more "real" , the LAu synergy is probably part of this experience.
..dB
-
Haha I just got done telling somebody how I think the SR-009 headband looks ugly. It's kinda sad because the 007 headband looks great.
Not sure if that was a shot at me, but I don't think it's a misguided assumption to say we're paying for the tooling when one of the JPS guys directly said it in the HF thread. Not CNC...laser engraver.
I got to hear these at the meet today and will post brief impressions when I'm not pooped.
-
Undampened orthos are quite doable. In fact, they're not undampened, they're air and electrically dampened like subwoofers.
For that, you need a very light membrane and a friggin big magnet, preferably neodymium, with well done very light traces on the driver.
Oh, and an acoustic seal with a large driver to move enough air for air braking to kick in. The more, the better.
The less tension in such a design the better - makes it more responsive to linear acoustic suspension, as opposed to highly nonlinear tension with properties that often are hard to predict. (See how many QC issues Audeze has.)
Damping the driver can be done from both sides, but having a back reflection is usually more of a detriment and it's hard to get rid of it completely.
That requires some very serious application of material and a large cup.
While subs are dampened by the air in the box, just invert the design and you get an acoustic suspension headphone. I think that's what most open headphones actually are in bass, but few of them are large enough.
-
I could honestly care less about looks, hell I own the Float! But I certainly don't have that gap over my big noggin! Respect for not making it cosmetically good and not big enough for fat heads. When I wear the 007 my head is basically touching the arcs.
Where did those models come from, perhaps:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7WHJYW47UB0/TfA7xM0dTVI/AAAAAAAABvQ/zPZvyrb6Vpw/s1600/beetlejuice.jpg)
As guru has noted above, this is the key to the Abyss. You can tune most any ortho to have a reasonably flat frequency response, but to get it right without any real damping - that is a manufacturing challenge. The TOTL stats do this , but you need a stat rig to enjoy them and I am with purrin that I am not a fan of the "ethereal" stax sound.
I know people are making a fuss about the looks, truth is the SR009 looks like a POS when sitting on someones head - it has that funky spring arc that sticks up 10 cm above your head
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/d/d6/350x263px-LL-d6ef726f_Stax.jpeg)
and good looks don't make it look any better
(http://static.apple.nextmedia.com/images/apple-photos/apple_sub/20120629/large/29fu7p.jpg)
I absolutely don't care about the rugged industrial look, in fact I think they look quite rugged and industrial . I like it and the fact that they are comfortable and sound spectacular is the real kicker
price - having seen what it takes for Alex to get his amps to production, I can see many hidden manufacturing costs in the Abyss. I have a hard time justifying costs in audio as it is , but when I look at some of the craziness that we accept in the stereo world, paying $5K for a high end transducer seems far less crazy than paying $100K for the equivalent in a speaker. Even if we do not go to the extremes, take the $200 pioneer speakers which rocked the stereo world with their fidelity, does this mean that manufacturers such as sonus faber should rethink their product and not sell monitors for $15K. I am not trying to justify things for JPS BUT I can see where some of the costs come in ( without the whining and misguided assumption that they are trying to pay for expensive tooling required for the manufacture of the headphones) Most people drop $500 - $1000 on aftermarket cabling. Joe being a cable guy made what he considers the best cable suited to his headphone as part of the boutique accessory package. Many may ask why do they need a customized leather carry satchel , a complement of cable adapters and a headphone stand as part of the deal. If these were not included could the cost have been dropped by $1500 ? If I am reading into the idea behind the Abyss, you are buying the ultimate headphone package , "just add an amp" deal. I also think the package is seriously cool. Far more lust worthy than the stax briefcase of the SR007 series. Why did JPS not farm out the CNC work to another fabrication house - well they did initially and after suffering the seriously defunct manufacturing chain , they decided to do it in house . This was after RMAF ( when the price had already been announced, so not a factor in cost of the headphones at all ).
enough rambling , looking forward to more impressions. To my ears, music has never sounded more "real" , the LAu synergy is probably part of this experience.
..dB
-
Okay, the real deal, hands-on impression of the Abyss, heard at the LA meet on our Mjolnir: Holy Schiit!
No, really, these are very, very good headphones. We went back and forth between the Abyss and a bunch of other TOTL orthos and conventional designs. Bottom line: the Abyss is not BS. It is very dynamic, alive, vibrant, and natural-sounding headphone. It clearly deserves to be included amongst the best of the best. In some ways, it is the headphone I'd choose over all of them.
However (you knew this was coming, right), I'll stand on my marketing and design comments. Especially after seeing how the Abyss will not fit people with smaller heads, at all (Rina basically had to hold them on her head.) And, in person, you don't immediately think, "5.5K" when you see them--not in styling, not in detailing, not in fit and finish.
-
I'm not sure I'd be able to adjust them to be narrow enough, either. Not the first time a headphone has had this problem.
Other than that, everything seemed high quality and I'd be interested in spending extended time with a pair.
-
c/p:
I only really listened to the Abyss (wanted to hear the KingSounds but they were stuck in customs). They looked worse in person than in pictures, especially while adjusting the pivot on top. Fit was unsettling but not painful. I listened through the DNA Stratus and CA LAu. This headphone seemed like it had extremes in strengths/weaknesses. The bass was great, and the soundstage was really big. They were quite detailed for an ortho I think. The imaging was a little strange to me - diffuse for sure, but hard panned sounds were very distracting, perhaps due to the depth of the earpads. Mids sounded a bit off at times, but I'm not sure how to describe it. Purrin asked me if I meant 'hollow' and I guess that kinda describes it. Unfortunately the treble was a mess. The bass was high end, the mids were mid fi, and the treble was low-fi.
-
Not sure if that was a shot at me
nope
regarding fit - I am surprised people with small heads have trouble. I do have a small head and often have trouble. The HE6 do not fit regardless of what I have tried. The SR009 barely fits - hangs on the top on my ears , The Abyss just fits but it does so comfortably.
-
Yeah, I've got a small head and find a lot of headphones uncomfortable / too big. The Abyss actually fits me really well. Maybe my ears just stick out or something.
In either case it's nice to see more impressions for these. Seems they're quite polarizing, which is to be expected I guess. The Abyss just pushes enough of the right buttons for me while avoiding pushing the wrong ones to make it one of the most "complete" packages for me holistically. I find other headphones I've listened to over the years do certain things better, but the Abyss just hits the 'right' combination for me: that FR balance with that sense of presence and that level of detail, layering, and speed. For me the issues aren't anywhere near big enough of a deal to spoil that, thankfully. Obviously other folks will have different levels of sensitivity to these things.
-
I totally understand where n3rdling is coming from. In a weird way, I don't disagree with him and I don't think what he said is inconsistent with what I've said about the Abyss. He doesn't use many words, but I've known him for a while. It's one of those things.
-
I suppose my issue boils down to: Why are we letting the market bear this?
It is because there is a market.
EDIT: schiit's marketing messages are right too.
-
I just came across a "blog and only that… not a full-on Hi-Fi+ product review" from Chris Martens on these headphones, and a few things jumped out at me that made me go back and (re-)read this thread/ Tyll's review.
CM:
- "One might argue, in fact that the Stax may be, by a hair, just slightly quicker (in terms of transient speed)"
- "However, the Stax cannot, I think, equal the Abyss in terms of sheer accuracy of tonal balance"
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/first-listen-abyss-ab-1266-planar-magnetic-headphones/
Tyll's review:
- "the SR-009 sounded a bit sterile and amazingly not as fast as the AB-1266."
- "The other two (HD 800 and SR-009) had a more neutral response to my ears"
Everyone seems to agree on the detail retrieval and bass aspects of the Abyss, and the overall impressions are very favorable. So, are the other discrepancies about speed and tonal balance due to personal preference, fit, source gear, product variation, or what? I would guess the BHSE that Tyll used was at least as good as whatever Martens was using in terms of speed. FWIW, I find my tastes and trust lie closer to Tyll's- I'm not so sure about CM's.
-
Keep in mind Tyll's Abyss was fubar. He stated that they did not sound the same as the one Don and I heard, and I suspect his pair did not sound like Muppet's either. I've noted Tyll's preference is likely a bit toward the brighter side than mine. (I can't stand the HD800 in stock form, no matter the cable.) We both appreciate headphones without peaks or nulls, but my ideal FR probably has a more of slope downward.
In terms of transient response in comparison to the 009. It's hard to compare directly. Both headphones are very agile but how they start and stop are very different. The STAX seem to have a gentler start and then come up to lightning fast speed with a gentler stop. The AB-1266 is sort of like a four wheel drive launch and a sudden F1 carbon fiber brake stop.
I feel the overall tonal balance of the Abyss is closer to my reference (the EQ'd speakers), but with the slight upper mid depression and slight treble ringing at 9k. The overall balance of the 009 is a tad too tipped up compared to my reference. The lack of sub to low bass impact of the 009 exacerbates this perception.
-
I'm probably not ever going to own the Abyss unless I hit the lottery (I have at least three more years of paying college tuition ahead of me), but I do think it's safe to say that JPS has established itself as a playa, and it will be interesting to see whether they can deliver a quality product at $2K or less.
popcorn
-
Does the 007 have that sub to low bass impact?
-
Mindless speculation-
The overtly high price of the Abyss is intentional. They release a great (but not $5K great) product to the big blue depths, and watch the fish bite. Hype spreads, legit people in the biz talk about how "if this bugger was a few grand cheaper, I'd be very inclined", and the few objective qualms about the sound/build quality get jotted in a notebook by JPS. Which they use to tweak their about-ready-to-go significantly less expensive version of the Abyss. The one they originally planned on making most of their name and money off of.
It's a common tactic, and what I the unemployed-nobody-living-in-an-astrovan would probably consider, and something you've all likely suspected.
-
Mindless speculation-
The overtly high price of the Abyss is intentional. They release a great (but not $5K great) product to the big blue depths, and watch the fish bite. Hype spreads, legit people in the biz talk about how "if this bugger was a few grand cheaper, I'd be very inclined", and the few objective qualms about the sound/build quality get jotted in notebook by JPS. Which they use to tweak their about-ready-to-go significantly less expensive version of the Abyss. The one they originally planned on making name and money off of.
It's a common tactic, and what I the unemployed-nobody-living-in-an-astrovan would probably consider, and something you've all likely suspected.
It's based on the dealer model. This is old-skool HiFi distribution. You are more likely going to get a better price by going to the local HiFi dealers and bargaining. I suspect 50% margins. Call around and see which one caves first for the price you want. Of course you are more likely to get a better price if you've had dealings with a particular dealer before. Also got to play the game as a customer. Dress well. Act like you have money. Don't look like a bum - that is like how Anax did at THE SHOW. Otherwise they won't take you seriously.
-
Does the 007 have that sub to low bass impact?
Yes on sub to low bass volume.
No on sub to low bass impact.
I also think the 007mk1 bass is kind of soft in terms of presentation. mk2/2.5 is boomy unless modded.
-
...I've noted Tyll's preference is likely a bit toward the brighter side than mine...
In terms of transient response in comparison to the 009. It's hard to compare directly. Both headphones are very agile but how they start and stop are very different. The STAX seem to have a gentler start and then come up to lightning fast speed with a gentler stop. The AB-1266 is sort of like a four wheel drive launch and a sudden F1 carbon fiber brake stop.
I'm generally not that sensitive to highs either, which is why I think I can identify w/Tyll's impressions.
Haha... I like the metaphors. I guess there are variations in speed build-up. I was also wondering if we are also getting to the point where we're splitting hairs- therefore the perceived speed might be program material or frequency dependent?
So this 'one-sided planar magnetic drive' is apparently proprietary, which means they must've filed for a patent. And this means that nobody will be able to make a can with the same technology, minus the cables, expensive etching, stunning looks, and accessories for under $2k? I understand that they probably spent a lot of money and time to develop this. But it's too bad that it puts them out of the reach of mortals. Thank god it isn't beautiful.
-
I've really enjoyed reading this thread over the last few days. My prejudice towards the company wrote it off straight away. Slightly embarrassed to say that but hey this company has some expensive cables...
-
I forgot to mention the pair I have in my possession is a pre-production pair. Joe did mention he'll get a production pair out to me after a bit. I am definitely looking forward to it.
-
Was able to have a listen to them again to confirm or deny my prior findings at The Show. They have some interesting attributes but I'll definitely be keeping my modded HD800s. Even if they were the same price or less. Unless the production unit improves noticeably. Still waiting for the next coming.
-
I'm generally not that sensitive to highs either, which is why I think I can identify w/Tyll's impressions.
Haha... I like the metaphors. I guess there are variations in speed build-up. I was also wondering if we are also getting to the point where we're splitting hairs- therefore the perceived speed might be program material or frequency dependent?
So this 'one-sided planar magnetic drive' is apparently proprietary, which means they must've filed for a patent. And this means that nobody will be able to make a can with the same technology, minus the cables, expensive etching, stunning looks, and accessories for under $2k? I understand that they probably spent a lot of money and time to develop this. But it's too bad that it puts them out of the reach of mortals. Thank god it isn't beautiful.
HiFiMAN HE-4 I think are also just one magnet? no idea how similar it is though, design-wise.
-
Someone asked me about how these compare to the modded Jades in e-mail, pm, an HF thread, or somewhere else. I will answer that here.
- The Jades have a similar peak in the treble, which is mollified by the modifications. Minus for the Jade is the peak is smack in the sibilance zone. Plus is the extent of the Jade's peak / ringing is much less than that of the Abyss'. Overall the Jades have smoother treble. With the Abyss, one has to be more careful of the amp. Etchy SS is not a good idea with the Abyss.
- Jades are more neutral in the mids. Abyss is laid back with the dip is the presence region. I think both n3rdling and ultrabike noticed this with the Abyss. Personally I find the Abyss' behavior OK, although I have the say the Jades are more accurate.
- Abyss have more overall clarity. They are cleaner in the bass and the mids. Jade's background is a slightly grey.
- Abyss was way more bass impact. Across entire region of bass, and especially down low. Abyss bass is also tighter, but it's close. Keep in mind that I feel Jade bass quality is better than 007mk1 and probably nudges out 009.
- Abyss does not resolve as well as Jades. But I also feel Jades out resolve 007mk1 and 009 in terms of plankton (not necessarily the same think as detail.) The best plankton extractors (DAC willing) are IMO: 1) HD800, 2) Orpheus, 3) Jade.
- Jades Achilles heel is headstage depth. There is very little. It's not claustrophobic or lacks openness. It just doesn't project any depth.
I should line up everything in an spreadsheet and compare modded Jades, 009, 007mk1, and Abyss. I don't think there's a clear winner and it ultimately depends on what you are looking for. My favorites: Orpheus, Modded Jades, Abyss, and 007mk1 (honorable mention).
-
If you make such a spreadsheet, I could add the new Jecklin Floats if you're interested. I'm actually sorely in need of some direct A/B time between the new Floats and the Abyss.
Edit: I think throwing in the "super" LCD-3 would be helpful too.
-
Mmmm....Super LCD 3. I spent lots of time w/ two more LCD-3s at the SHOW. So that's like 7-8 LCD3s I've heard now? Still haven't duplicated that sound that made me think of putting the HD800 up for sale. That was a good 48 hours.
-
An interesting read. I personally do not like of concept putting magnets before the driver, however I did not had a chance to listen.
So my comment is just a theory, based on experience of modding and listening of other headphones, no judging.
I think all points of what purrin said is connected to each other -
- The Jades have a similar peak in the treble, which is mollified by the modifications. Minus for the Jade is the peak is smack in the sibilance zone. Plus is the extent of the Jade's peak / ringing is much less than that of the Abyss'. Overall the Jades have smoother treble. With the Abyss, one has to be more careful of the amp. Etchy SS is not a good idea with the Abyss.
- Jades are more neutral in the mids. Abyss is laid back with the dip is the presence region. I think both n3rdling and ultrabike noticed this with the Abyss. Personally I find the Abyss' behavior OK, although I have the say the Jades are more accurate.
This behavior is usually highly related to the next points. Generally speaking, high-frequency peaks and somewhat recessed presence, if done right, can cause cleaner and punchier bass. Every musical bass have a portion played by high frequencies, and it plays an important role, that reflects by human perception as bass impact and speed. Reduced presence can further exaggerate the effect, by lowering down nearby spectrum, and here frequency masking comes into play.
- Abyss have more overall clarity. They are cleaner in the bass and the mids. Jade's background is a slightly grey.
- Abyss was way more bass impact. Across entire region of bass, and especially down low. Abyss bass is also tighter, but it's close. Keep in mind that I feel Jade bass quality is better than 007mk1 and probably nudges out 009.
Also, presence region often have some reverberation of surroundings (even if emulated artificially, as we are to used to it. nobody listens in anechoic chamber), and if it is lowered, it can add to perceived overall sound clarity. If it is overdone however, it can lead to making sound artificial.
I will not be much surprised, if magnet structure resonances have a thing in it (via ringing feel in the Abyss), as placed in front, rather than back of the driver, clearly makes them more prone to it.
-
Low distortion is probably a better indicator of clean and articulate bass. The old Denon D series, Darth Beyers, many Ultrasones, all have laid back presence regions with treble peaks, but their bass quality is bad. Even the HE500 has this tonal characteristic, and the HE500 bass tends to be one-note-ish unless driven by a power amp.
-
Well yeah. I was speaking from a position that distortion graphs are more or less the same. Don't know much about Jade, besides that it was an attempt to replicate Orpheus.
HE500 stands apart from most other orthos for myself, as to me it is an otho, which was forced to sound like dynamic. Some strange beast between two worlds. However pretty nice for its price nonetheless.
-
IMO HE500 is really held back by stock earpads, where pleathers are too warbly and stuffy, and velours are too edgy and bright. The Jergpad project is still ongoing between myself and another avid modder going by name of Modulor on H-Fi (who has sold a large batch of the modded pads earlier this year, and plans to make and sell a much larger batch later this month). It's amazing how "right" we can push the HE500s to sound with these fairly extensive pad-specific mods.
Marv, do you think you are down for another measurement/impressions from the upcoming September batch of the newest revision of Jergpads? Much has changed relative to the scrappy pads I sent you some months ago, both in terms of sound attenuation and in terms of durability/quality. If you are down I'll ask Modulor about it.
Edit: might be preferable to take this to PMs.
-
Yes. My original jerg pads fell apart and I know you made some changes so I didn't bother measuring them with the he400.
-
I had a solid few hours trying these Abyss cans out with a Cavalli LAu at a mate's house the other day, along with some other high-end cans by Stax, Audeze, Fostex and Sennheiser, plus an assortment of amps and DACS (and cables I would never pay for with my own money). Yes, they're extremely ugly, like something those burly "outlaws" on Discovery biker build-off would weld together from plumbing material in their sheds. They do sound very good with the LAu, however. Very, very good.
Thing is, they weren't envelope pushing good to my ears. Again, I stress, to my ears - In terms of clarity, resolution and overall imaging, they were handily spanked by the Stax 009 + Woo Audio WES at the meet-up. Same could be said for a Senn HD800 I tried there (though I can't recall the model of amp it was paired with). In terms of pure musicality/ euphonia, the LCD3 + Alo Studio Six I tried bested them for the genres I listen to, and I'm not even a fan of the Audeze sound in general. The Fostex TH-900 (yes, a closed can ... gasp) + GS-X MK2, to my mind, remains the most entertaining combo out of all the high-end rigs I've tried, easily besting the Abyss + LAu and LCD3 + Alo Six in terms of "high from music" moments and presentation.No other combo makes me want to bounce and bob around as much. I don't really care if the Fostex's get slagged off by "true audiophiles" for being too hi-fi sounding or whatever. Obviously there's some bias here if you look at the equipment listed in my profile, but it's equipment I bought after comparing them with everything available in the market, so it's somewhat justified, in my mind.
Back to the Abyss. Yes, they're definitely high-end headphile cans. Their biggest selling point is their speed, to my ears. But considering what I've tried, what I've owned in the past and what I currently own, along with my musical preferences; the most I'd expect to pay for these would be LCD2 + aftermarket cable money - or about $1500 max to be precise, but even that feels overpriced considering the increased enjoyment I get from a TH-900, which is also about $1500 (cheaper than that where I live, actually). If I were in a forgiving/generous mood, I might strongly consider the Abyss at any price below $2000, but considering their current market price (plus the price of a Cavalli LAu), no way. I'd rather save for a SR009 and upgrades to my WES for that money.
Disclaimer; I don't consider myself an audiophile. I concentrate on enjoyment first and foremost, and how much a can/dac/amp combo entertains me with the genres of music I listen to (electro, house, lounge, math/post rock, acid jazz, fusion, instrumental hip-hop, vintage pop). I don't bother with graphs and charts and audiophile vocabulary. I'd rather share a beer and hang out with "lowest common denominator" peasants that own direct drive Technics 1200s than elitist audiophiles with their whatever-flavour-of-the-month designer brand turntables. Judge my utilitarian/simpleton impressions as you see fit. It's the view of the common uneducated bloke, for the most part.
Cheers.
-
Thx for the impressions! I do wonder what DACs you had and the various amps involved. I was following along w/ your impressions until you mentioned Studio six. No way it approaches the WA5, EC BA/S7, Manley 300B, Malvalve, Stratus. I'm glad you enjoyed it but I don't consider that amp anywhere near the top level of dynamic amps out there w/ any phone. Just my 2 cents.
-
I'll admit I'm inexperienced with Audeze. Look at my profile and I only have a LCD2 (which I hardly listen to), that I mostly drive with the Pan AM and Violectric V200/V800 combo at home, so to my ears, the LCD3 + Studio Six was a slight step-up from the Audeze sound I usually get. Then again, I did mention that I'm not a big fan of Audeze's house sound (mids are overly lush, coupled with the already lush deep house I listen to, kinda makes it sound veiled, almost fake sometimes). Maybe it's because I find Audeze LCDs extremely uncomfortable (even with the Vegan optionals), so my impressions might be masked by the (dis)comfort factor.
I could only post impressions of what I tried at the same time as the Abyss at the same place. I recall seeing a Stratus there, but can't recall what can it was attached to. As for DAC, most of the time at the meet-up, I mostly dragged about a Lawry or Mytek with my MBP, employing their DAC only and bypassing whatever internal amp they had (if any). I tried to keep the DACs constant, using the same source quality for all the headphone/amp combos I got to try. Obviously I was familiar with some combos more than others, which is why I mentioned bias, since I understand that some combos just synergize better than others. Again, I could only use what was available at the meet - a gathering of friends, not some big-time convention - and what was not being used by others. Tried to derive my impressions as fair as I could, considering the limitations.
Like I said, just a common bloke's point of view. A common bloke who loves headphones, but still a common bloke compared to most posters here. I can only like what I like, and I loved the Abyss, just not as much as it's street price suggests, and not as much as some other combos.
Edit: For what it's worth, I also got to experience an Audeze LCD3 with another Cavalli amp. Think it might have been a Liquid Glass (had a pair of tubes in the middle). Sounded good, but the Studio Six combo was a bit more entertaining to my ears. No idea how "stock" the combo was though, or whether there was any extensive tube-rolling involved prior, but it was highly euphonic. HAd a very personal and deep soundstage about it, which I tend to prefer over wide soundstages which I often find too aloof for my tastes.
-
I think you would be surprised how many people here like the TH-900, despite it's "fun" FR.
-
The TH900 is generally well regarded 'round here for the most part. I certainly enjoyed mine with the Zana Deux SE, and I felt it was something of a party animal while maintaining enough sobering clarity to drive home at the end of the night. To a large degree the bass was free of bad distortion, so it sounded fairly clean despite being pretty massive in scale, and it resulted (to my ears at least) in a bass response that wasn't as overwhelming as the measurements might imply. Overall I felt the TH900 had an organic and lively quality as well, a certain "vitalism" that made it sound sweet and rich but also natural and energetic at the same time. This I [perhaps erroneously] attribute to the biocellulose drivers, and I find the Sony R10 exhibits similar qualities to varying degrees as well.
Over time however, the flaws of the TH900 grated on me more and more. The edginess of the highs started to creep up during longer sessions, though the bottom end fullness helped to kind of counterbalance this for me to an extent. Unfortunately the slight sucked-out quality of the midrange left the extremities a bit more grating to me than if there was something fuller there in between. I still feel the TH900 is a great headphone with its own particular charms, but I ended up selling mine off because I wanted to downsize.
Personally I find the bass response of the Abyss trounces that of the TH900 and just about any other headphone out there. As far as resolution goes, I don't think the SR-009 outclasses the Abyss. The HD800 however is another story; I think the Senns are still the way to go if you prioritize resolution above all else, provided you have the right amp behind them. I still think the SR-009 is uncanny in its ability to "get out of the way" and just sort of slip into the background, though in general I tend to feel it's pretty overrated in our hobby. The SR-007 comes pretty close to matching it performance-wise when powered properly, and it does so without the treble emphasis. I think maybe it's that emphasis (on the SR-009) makes details stand out to people more though. Honestly, I think headphones like the SR-009 have a sort of "wow me at a meet" honeymoon effect on a lot of folks.
-
For many of us this is the story of so much gear we go through, right? We fall in love with something about it, knowing full well that this or that is not quite right. In the early days of our love affair we look past that little thing. This may last a while. But as time goes on we find the little thing starting to stand out, to grind away at our audio soul, until we decide it's time to move along.
Those euphonic tube amps that seduce us with the lush easy going presentation. In the right mood they make us melt. After time we start to think they are muddy and lack detail. Many never tame the HD-800 treble peak, and it eventually leaves an owner thinking they are etched or edgy. Those thin, bright electrostatics sounded so detailed you couldn't get enough, until you had way to much of it! That powerful SS amp that has a little kick down low, boom boom, until you feel like you've got a disco in your head.
For many of us, that's the stuff that get's relegated to now and again service because we just can't live with it full time. Or goes out the door so we can seek something closer to, well, neutral? I'm not sure it's a clean cut as that, but when stuff has too much color that takes it too far from it, I think it's only a matter of time.
Marv called me out on this when I had the ZDSE... and he was right.
Anyway, just sort of rambling while I'm stuck in an airport...
Over time however, the flaws of the TH900 grated on me more and more. The edginess of the highs started to creep up during longer sessions, though the bottom end fullness helped to kind of counterbalance this for me to an extent. Unfortunately the slight sucked-out quality of the midrange left the extremities a bit more grating to me than if there was something fuller there in between. I still feel the TH900 is a great headphone with its own particular charms, but I ended up selling mine off because I wanted to downsize.
Honestly, I think headphones like the SR-009 have a sort of "wow me at a meet" honeymoon effect on a lot of folks.
-
I thought the LCD3 was a good match with the Studio Six, although I didn't feel it was a top-tier amp in an absolute sense. The ALO seemed to counter the LCD3's thickness a bit.
-
For many of us this is the story of so much gear we go through, right? We fall in love with something about it, knowing full well that this or that is not quite right. In the early days of our love affair we look past that little thing. This may last a while. But as time goes on we find the little thing starting to stand out, to grind away at our audio soul, until we decide it's time to move along.
Those euphonic tube amps that seduce us with the lush easy going presentation. In the right mood they make us melt. After time we start to think they are muddy and lack detail. Many never tame the HD-800 treble peak, and it eventually leaves an owner thinking they are etched or edgy. Those thin, bright electrostatics sounded so detailed you couldn't get enough, until you had way to much of it! That powerful SS amp that has a little kick down low, boom boom, until you feel like you've got a disco in your head.
For many of us, that's the stuff that get's relegated to now and again service because we just can't live with it full time. Or goes out the door so we can seek something closer to, well, neutral? I'm not sure it's a clean cut as that, but when stuff has too much color that takes it too far from it, I think it's only a matter of time.
Marv called me out on this when I had the ZDSE... and he was right.
Anyway, just sort of rambling while I'm stuck in an airport...
Over time however, the flaws of the TH900 grated on me more and more. The edginess of the highs started to creep up during longer sessions, though the bottom end fullness helped to kind of counterbalance this for me to an extent. Unfortunately the slight sucked-out quality of the midrange left the extremities a bit more grating to me than if there was something fuller there in between. I still feel the TH900 is a great headphone with its own particular charms, but I ended up selling mine off because I wanted to downsize.
Honestly, I think headphones like the SR-009 have a sort of "wow me at a meet" honeymoon effect on a lot of folks.
And I'm guessing the real conclusions to such stories is that everyone just end up with their HD650s? :)p8
-
that was beautiful. a very charming love story.
and not a happy ending. author must be european.
but I relate! the journey has been fun though.
-
And I'm guessing the real conclusions to such stories is that everyone just end up with their HD650s? :)p8
[/quote]
Dunno, haven't heard 'em yet... ;)
-
And I'm guessing the real conclusions to such stories is that everyone just end up with their HD650s? :)p8
Dunno, haven't heard 'em yet... ;)
[/quote]
Personally I still prefer my modded Ksc75s to the HD650, the latter just sounds way too forward even with its recessed mid-treble.
-
this thread has made me think that everything I own is a mistake. Anyone want a ZDSE + TH900s? A Dynahi + HD800s?
-
Don't ever sell the HD800, it doesn't stop scaling.
-
I will never sell the HD800 in your honour
might have meant more if I had bought one on the first place :)p13
-
(http://cdn2.ubergizmo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/monster-dna.jpg)
I recently bought these Monster DNA headphones. I am never selling them. They never stop scalene.
..I'll see myself out now.
-
this thread has made me think that everything I own is a mistake. Anyone want a ZDSE + TH900s? A Dynahi + HD800s?
I'll save you the shame of owning the ZDSE and TH900. PM coming with my addy so you can ship it right away and save yourself from being an outcast. Hang on to the face tweeters. :)p7
-
I am never selling them. They never stop scalene.
Hold on to that feelin', bro
-
Don't ever sell the HD800, it doesn't stop scaling.
I always joke, but I shan't sell my babies.
-
I recently bought these Monster DNA headphones. I am never selling them. They never stop scalene.
..I'll see myself out now.
How obtuse. facepalm
-
this thread has made me think that everything I own is a mistake. Anyone want a ZDSE + TH900s? A Dynahi + HD800s?
Hang on to the face tweeters. :)p7
Says Mr. 009. :)p8
-
I'll save you the shame of owning the ZDSE and TH900. PM coming with my addy so you can ship it right away and save yourself from being an outcast. Hang on to the face tweeters. :)p7
I'll make sure to cushion the box with wads of american cash to keep it safe, too :boom:
-
Goldenears took their measurement... http://en.goldenears.net/24177
-
The CSD plot looks rather odd. It doesn't seem to match the "reviewer's opinion" section.
-
Anyone know the pinout for these? Is it exactly the same as Audez'e? Might as well offer a cable for them, although I'm sure people are pretty happy with "stock".
-
These already come with $3,000 cables though!
-
True, but if you don't get the privilege of paying that $3,000 on top of the price of the headphones, you may not benefit from them the same way.
-
They use the same connectors as Audez'e.
I think the stock cables for the Abyss are actually really nice. The material used for their jackets reminds me of what Etymotic uses on the ER4S somewhat, and I find it's just the right balance between flexibility and rigidity; they don't tangle up or catch on clothes, but they're not rigid and awkward to move around with either.
JPS does offer more expensive cables for the Abyss. I recall they were promoting them at several meets in Asia. I think the price was like $8k or even $10k for these cables.
-
Similar to the LCD2/3 which I believe are 4 pin? The JPS cables are mini-XLR 3 pin. I was able to jam the Audeze connectors into the Abyss. Tight fit though. (JPS connectors won't fit into Audeze obviously). Don't know if it's a brand thing or not. The JPS connectors look similar to the Switchcraft? mini-XLR 3 pins.
I actually prefer the sound of copper, at least on my current setup. Hence my use of the Audeze cables in the interim until I can figure out what to do.
-
Holy fuck, you jammed a 4 pin XLR cable into a $5500 headphone? Sweet merciful Jesus. Like, I'd be happy to reterminate that for you for like 10 bucks. Anybody know the pinout for the 3 pin?
-
Let me get back to you on the pin-outs. Will probably re-terminate myself with CAT6 in the meantime. Yes, I do stuff that would horrify most audiophiles. This includes running the Abyss from a $120 microphonic amp.
-
The pins don't exactly line up right going from 4-pin to 3... that must have been some aggressive jamming...
-
Actually the pins do line up exactly. Just the 3-pin housing (JPS) is just a tad smaller.
-
Huh weird... I tried in the past and it didn't work, but tried it again just now and presto heyo it goes in. Maybe I was trying to do it backwards last time.
-
Anyone know the pinout for these? Is it exactly the same as Audez'e? Might as well offer a cable for them, although I'm sure people are pretty happy with "stock".
Here it is for everyone.
-
Demoing these babies on my incredibly high end work setup of ODAC > Vali. I'm pretty impressed. First thought is that this is way better at recreating the 2001 car audio slump'n experience of long excursion 15"s in the trunk of my old 1990 subaru legacy station wagon with some of my favorite hip hop albums than any other setup I've had. Feels pretty speedy and clear while having some impressive bass slam. Even on this setup I'd take them for fun listening over the ZDSE > TH900 for hip hop heads.
-
Demoing these babies on my incredibly high end work setup of ODAC > Vali. I'm pretty impressed. First thought is that this is way better at recreating the 2001 car audio slump'n experience of long excursion 15"s in the trunk of my old 1990 subaru legacy station wagon with some of my favorite hip hop albums than any other setup I've had. Feels pretty speedy and clear while having some impressive bass slam. Even on this setup I'd take them for fun listening over the ZDSE > TH900 for hip hop heads.
Worth the asking price to you?
-
Driving it on a $120 amp is worth the $6.5k asking price in and of itself.
-
Well played.
-
Worth the asking price to you?
Caveat: The Abyss I'm auditioning is modded so I'm unsure how the stock Abyss compares. They also have custom Marvey cables that have 25% more awesome than stock cabling.
Listening a little tonight with X-Sabre > 2A3 MKIV > Abyss with some of my own music. I agree with Marvey's assessment that this sounds much closer to a decent speaker setup than other headphones. I definitely prefer the HD800 on some music, but live and older recordings just sound much closer to real live music.
Subjectively, if I just had this single setup with the HD800s, I'd get the Abyss, too. The bass is to die for and it just does a lot right tonally. The speed is amazing (as many people mentioned). I agree the price is pretty high, but I really do like these quite a bit.
I've owned and sold the TH900, SR-007 MK1, and LCD-3 and I've spent quite a bit of time with the SR-009s. If I was in the market for a second flagship to complement the HD800s, I'd get these. As it is, after I move if it turns out my dreams of a new speaker rig aren't possible, I'll most likely pick up a pair.
-
Based on my brief impressions of the Abyss I also thought an apparent strength was transparency. I wasn't expecting that level of transparency.
-
Hm.. based on my time with them on a Cantata > LAu rig, the last thing I'd call them is speaker-like. They are very similar to Audeze headphones, but less wubwub more balanced signature. Still sounds like a hallway with speakers on direct left and right with not much in the middle. Even my poorly assembled speaker rig has a far better soundstage than these, and my UERM rapes my speakers, as do the HD800s, but not by as much.
Not that I think they sound bad, they are merely one of the best sounding headphones out there with my signature fatal flaw. People without soundstage issues ignore me.
-
Best soundstage I've heard so far in a planar. Best bass too, of any type of headphone. I've been pleasantly surprised how far they've come along since the prototypes a couple years back, and how modding can nudge them further.
I'm glad Marv switched out the monster cables for something more sensible, wearing the Abyss with the stock cables feels like you've strapped a seatbelt on your head. Now about that frame...
-
Hm.. based on my time with them on a Cantata > LAu rig, the last thing I'd call them is speaker-like. They are very similar to Audeze headphones, but less wubwub more balanced signature. Still sounds like a hallway with speakers on direct left and right with not much in the middle. Even my poorly assembled speaker rig has a far better soundstage than these, and my UERM rapes my speakers, as do the HD800s, but not by as much.
Not that I think they sound bad, they are merely one of the best sounding headphones out there with my signature fatal flaw. People without soundstage issues ignore me.
When we say they're like a good speaker rig, we're not talking about soundstage so much as their tonality, physical presence, and how the bottom-end performs. They sound like a good, properly optimized two way speaker system. Not a big room-encompasing multi channel rig.
The biggest weaknesses of the Abyss in my opinion are:
-Treble could use a bit of refinement / polish. I prefer a smoother top end. My set doesn't sound as bad as Tyll's original measurements would suggest, but it's still somewhat noticeable, especially if you're coming from e-stats.
-The timbre of some instruments is a little hollow, namely strings. The best headphone of all time for strings IMO is the Sony R10, followed by the Orpheus. Just for reference.
Other than that, most of you know what I like about the Abyss by now and why it's one of my primary references.
-
- Marvey Creatology Foam/Felt circles to fix the treble. $100 MSRP.
- Marvey Cables to fix the string timbre. $500 MSRP.
Willing to do a 90% deal off for pirates.
-
I guess I can see what you mean, MF. They do have sort of a solid robust sound to them that feels more complete than most headphones.
-
The strings have bigger issues than timbre. Namely being slow, smeared and inarticulate. Guitars sound like mud.
-
And the Marvey grill mod for the smearing. Very similar to the jerg HE-500 grill mod. I was surprised that this actually provided more clarity - not too dissimilar to the effects of the jerg HE-500 grill mod.
zeedee, take some pix if you can.
-
Can't say I've personally heard guitars sounding like slow mud on the Abyss.
-
Ol
I guess I can see what you mean, MF. They do have sort of a solid robust sound to them that feels more complete than most headphones.
Yup, MF hits the nail right on the head.
Honestly, some of my favorite CDs like Ella and Louis never sounded so good on headphones before. I'm suitably impressed.
- Marvey Creatology Foam/Felt circles to fix the treble. $100 MSRP.
- Marvey Cables to fix the string timbre. $500 MSRP.
Willing to do a 90% deal off for pirates.
I don't know what the delta is between your modded pair and the stock Abyss, but I really love this sound.
Also the man purse they came in is the nicest bag in my house right now.
I'll take pics tomorrow when everyone is awake and not around.
-
I hope to hear these some day!
-
Can't say I've personally heard guitars sounding like slow mud on the Abyss.
Listen to the first 2 minutes of Hotel California/Hell Freezes Over and compare to the HD800 or pretty much any decent dynamic. The difference should be clear in the inner harmonics and trailing decays, the Abyss has none on any rig I've tried modded or unmodded. For me it's a fatal flaw for the price.
Also re: Abyss speaker like bass, I find it enjoyable and entertaining but also find it and speaker systems that produce similar bass to be colored. Certainly not Beats colored but just a tad more than neutral for my ears/tastes.
-
I think the "mud" thing was a matter of semantics. To me, I heard the exact same thing and simply opined the Abyss does not resolve as well as the HD800. Really no surprise there. "mud" sort of implies Leben bass in my mind.
-
I think the "mud" thing was a matter of semantics. To me, I heard the exact same thing and simply opined the Abyss does not resolve as well as the HD800. Really no surprise there. "mud" sort of implies Leben bass in my mind.
This. But it was particular to a seemingly narrow band which seemed to make it seem more pronounced and annoying to me. Bass resolution when modded and paired right is superb.
-
I blame the Mytek for that.
-
I blame the Mytek for that.
And the PWD, Cantata, and M7? I suspect something in the single sided magnet/driver design. Purely speculation though.
-
I was referring to that time where we did hear the Abyss sound like Leben mud - on that Mytek @ THE SHOW. I don't what was up with that rig.
-
I was referring to that time where we did hear the Abyss sound like Leben mud - on that Mytek @ THE SHOW. I don't what was up with that rig.
Oh yeah, that thing...yeesh.
-
Can you tell me more about the mod Abyss marvey, I am very interested of the test on my Abyss.
-
I cut out concentric circle rings to place around the circular shaped grill. The material was a sandwich of Creatology felt and foam. The earpads actually have some room between them and the flat metal surface of the headphone.
Finally I cut fine Creatology foam strips (the ones with adhesive backing) and placed these strips over the bars of the grill. In other words, I did not leave any portion of the metal baffle exposed.
Finally, I got rid of the stock cables. I replaced them with high quality very flexible thin copper microphone cables.
-
Thin cables? How will the bass ever get through? (now I feel like an old-school HFer)
-
Thin cables? How will the bass ever get through? (now I feel like an old-school HFer)
:)
-
It's driving me nuts because I can't remember where I bought the cable.
It was an online place. They sold all sorts Canare, Mogami, etc. but also had their house brand "red" something.
UPDATE: Mogami W3031
I asked the guy at Redco for a good quality very flexible cable with a smallish diameter, but not too small. The W3031 is what he recommended.
-
Redco? They sell all that stuff and also have the Redco house brand.
-
I'm trying to start a trend toward thin cables again. Like the old Grados.
-
Thank you Marvey
Photos to better illustrate your ! :P
-
My Abyss are up north on a San Francisco Bay Area tour. I can draw pictures in the meantime.
-
I'll take pics before I hand them off
-
MS Paint drawings. I demand them!
-
Finally, I got rid of the stock cables. I replaced them with high quality very flexible thin copper microphone cables.
One would think a cable company should have had good stock cables to begin with. Or something like that. Or maybe it's an upgrade package?
-
"I can draw pictures in the meantime."
"I'll take pics before I hand them off"
Thank you Marvey, zerodeefex .
-
JPS Abyss with black screw..
(http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/905819imgserver1.jpg)
-
For the strips, I actually scanned the baffle to print out a cutout pattern.
-
For the strips, I actually scanned the baffle to print out a cutout pattern.
Creatology foam is this thingy? http://www.michaels.com/Creatology™-Foam-Sheets/gc1328,default,pd.html
-
Yup. These are the sticky back ones: http://www.michaels.com/sticky-back-foam-sheets/kd3124,default,pd.html?cgid=products-kidsteachers-foamandfeltcrafting-foam
-
Was totally busy and knackered after the Bay Area Meet. Marv was kind enough to set up a whole Abyss rig with Mjolnir and Reference 7 so I could get a chance to hear them late that Sunday night. Thanks, Marv! I thought they were nice tonally and with good physical weight to the sound. But something in the upper bass was <just> a bit warm/bloomy and nipping at the heels of the low mids/vocals. Not spilling over, but enough to notice and think that would be something I'd have to live with. (Bit smoother transition there would be nice.) I wondered how they would sound on my Balancing Act set-up.
So Marv left them with me and said to let the Bay Area hear them for a bit. Since then, I think it might have been the Mjolnir interacting with the Abyss for that upper bass to low mid transition "thing" I was hearing. I don't notice the same thing while using two other rigs.
Second rig I heard them on, I compared them with HD800 (unmodded) using Lavry DA10 > BA with AD-1 output tubes. The difference between HD800 and Abyss was HUGE for me. HD800 seemed "collapsed" in weight/richness/physicality/size of stage. Too thin. Using Norah Jones "Come Away With Me", the bass was just so thick and physical and real on the Abyss in comparison.
Made me worry that my set-up might be lacking too. So I am listening to them today on my PWD (FW 2.4.3) > BA with PX-4 > modded HD800.
Luckily, my BA/HD800 setup is richer right now than the other BA set-up that I heard. My rig is a little thicker, richer, more 3-dimensional- but HD800 are still not as physical as the Abyss. The bass is tighter/cleaner on the HD800 but also "smaller" and staying more in the center of my head. In contrast, the Abyss shakes the whole room like a bass cabinet actually can. What's more important? The HD800 seems a bit cleaner and smoother/more elegant/resolving to me. Clean sound (and lack of reflections) so that I don't have to strain to hear the mids is one of the things I love most about headphones. Tonality is overall a bit brighter and weight of the sound lighter on the HD800. I've got HD800 running in a way that I love them. The Abyss do some things better though...
Seems like the width of the Abyss stage is actually bigger, with more "fleshed out" and round/physical-sounding instruments. Which leads me to agree that they are more speaker-like. More like listening in a room or a place. To speakers or amplified instruments, especially. Bass seems almost a little bit too much or boomy in comparison with HD800 at times but also pretty natural. The way the Abyss move air is more palpable and I "feel" the music more as I hear it. The bass on the Abyss can hold a low "floor" to songs like Lyle Lovett's "Flyin' Shoes" that I do hear on big Dunntech Sovereigns but have not heard/felt on headphones before.
Abyss, a little less smooth/tight/fast but resolving in another way- the physicality of the instruments can help me place them better at times and create layers that way. Abyss can seem wider with these layers but not as much front to back or up/down. The HD800 can seem to present as a sphere and seem to have a big space to wander around in but I think it sounds more like a big space and the Abyss feels more like a real space.
What doesn't quite help with the Abyss sense of space for me is the air/treble compared to the HD800. The treble extension on the HD800 just seems much greater to me and I was surprised to see the Abyss graphs and that there was not more of a roll-off from 10-15kHz+. The treble and upper-mids peaks seem controlled for me but I would like a little more air. (When Chesky walks up and whispers in the ear, the HD800 win that one on realism.)
Nice with regards to sibilance, the Abyss seem to just be missing a <slight> bit in the mids somewhere that can make me think of a low/nasal resonance. It doesn't fit my idea of "honky" or "veiled" or "wonky" so I can't use those words. Just <slightly> resonant on vocals once in a while?
Tonality surprisingly good, bass capability and physicality are so good. These would be a nice complement to my HD800 and a "fun" pair. I don't have to ditch the HD800 yet though...
-
Matches what I hear mostly. Still has the typical headphone soundstage issues I always harp on though. The Abyss feels planted, but lacks up top and has very slight nasal sound.
-
Just to follow up... Now that I've gotten "the amp" in, I've actually reversed some of the mods (the felt piece). There's the definitely the possibility that I may end up going back to stock.
-
The levi ?
-
Just to follow up... Now that I've gotten "the amp" in, I've actually reversed some of the mods (the felt piece). There's the definitely the possibility that I may end up going back to stock.
You can try blu tack instead, it works wonderfull with most iso I tried. Can even emulate that ""fazor" thing if there is space
-
I had a solid few hours trying these Abyss cans out with a Cavalli LAu at a mate's house the other day, along with some other high-end cans by Stax, Audeze, Fostex and Sennheiser, plus an assortment of amps and DACS (and cables I would never pay for with my own money). Yes, they're extremely ugly, like something those burly "outlaws" on Discovery biker build-off would weld together from plumbing material in their sheds. They do sound very good with the LAu, however. Very, very good.
Thing is, they weren't envelope pushing good to my ears. Again, I stress, to my ears - In terms of clarity, resolution and overall imaging, they were handily spanked by the Stax 009 + Woo Audio WES at the meet-up. Same could be said for a Senn HD800 I tried there (though I can't recall the model of amp it was paired with). In terms of pure musicality/ euphonia, the LCD3 + Alo Studio Six I tried bested them for the genres I listen to, and I'm not even a fan of the Audeze sound in general. The Fostex TH-900 (yes, a closed can ... gasp) + GS-X MK2, to my mind, remains the most entertaining combo out of all the high-end rigs I've tried, easily besting the Abyss + LAu and LCD3 + Alo Six in terms of "high from music" moments and presentation.No other combo makes me want to bounce and bob around as much. I don't really care if the Fostex's get slagged off by "true audiophiles" for being too hi-fi sounding or whatever. Obviously there's some bias here if you look at the equipment listed in my profile, but it's equipment I bought after comparing them with everything available in the market, so it's somewhat justified, in my mind.
Back to the Abyss. Yes, they're definitely high-end headphile cans. Their biggest selling point is their speed, to my ears. But considering what I've tried, what I've owned in the past and what I currently own, along with my musical preferences; the most I'd expect to pay for these would be LCD2 + aftermarket cable money - or about $1500 max to be precise, but even that feels overpriced considering the increased enjoyment I get from a TH-900, which is also about $1500 (cheaper than that where I live, actually). If I were in a forgiving/generous mood, I might strongly consider the Abyss at any price below $2000, but considering their current market price (plus the price of a Cavalli LAu), no way. I'd rather save for a SR009 and upgrades to my WES for that money.
Disclaimer; I don't consider myself an audiophile. I concentrate on enjoyment first and foremost, and how much a can/dac/amp combo entertains me with the genres of music I listen to (electro, house, lounge, math/post rock, acid jazz, fusion, instrumental hip-hop, vintage pop). I don't bother with graphs and charts and audiophile vocabulary. I'd rather share a beer and hang out with "lowest common denominator" peasants that own direct drive Technics 1200s than elitist audiophiles with their whatever-flavour-of-the-month designer brand turntables. Judge my utilitarian/simpleton impressions as you see fit. It's the view of the common uneducated bloke, for the most part.
Cheers.
may i add to ask whether any of the following you compared to gs-x and cavali to match the abyss 1266 ?
Prelude3.1-SE
Bakoon - HPA-21 Headphone Amplifier
AudioValve RKV Headphone Tubes Amplifier
masskobo 394
Krell KSA-5 Headphone Amplifier
Fostex TH-900 ) + GS-X MK2 combination makes you the best loy in music ,the abyss and cavalli next best and still best in resolution ?
the hd800 or the abyss which one you prefer ?