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Author Topic: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"  (Read 6336 times)

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AustinValentine

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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« on: May 07, 2015, 04:18:48 AM »

Posting this over here so as to not derail the Yggy thread. This entire situation stuck in my craw a bit, so I'm going to say my peace about it:

In 1993, I was at University of Michigan with friends as part of a Triangle Foundation demonstration - the group of us were trying to push the regents to pass an ordinance barring sexual discrimination on campus. A counter-protest formed and ran the group of us back to our cars. The angry mob overturned our Honda Civic, kicked in the windows, and dragged us out of the vehicles. I got out of it with a few minor laceration and abrasions; the mob beat one of my close friends until he was almost unrecognizable. I can still remember the reason they targeted him over me: I was in a flannel, he was wearing a fishnet shirt. Don't ever say that grunge never did anything for anyone.

This was five years before Matthew Sheppard was strung up on a fence in Wyoming.

While less frequent, violence against LGBT/Q individuals is still a problem. In 2003, another close friend and I were pulled over coming out of Palmer Park in the early hours of the morning. We drove through the neighborhood to get back to home quicker; the police assumed that my friend was picking up a gay prostitute. (In this story, I was the gay prostitute.) The only thing that kept them from beating me with maglites was that they realized that my friend in the drivers seat was a girl with boy-cut hair. Just four years ago, one of my students (a theater major who performed in Sesame Street Live) had his face beat to a pulp at a BP in Detroit because his assailant simply thought he was gay. This is to say nothing about the violence that LBGTQ individuals do to themselves. I spent a year volunteering for a gender-queer emergency helpline at Affirmations in Ferndale, MI. The internal struggles are often more frequent and taxing than external ones.

There is a reflexive relationship between representation and response, portrayal and reaction, that makes comments - even jokes - still matter. This might sound like I'm on the side of the "PC Police", and in some ways I am. I think that quite a large amount of our stereotypes (negative and otherwise), attitudes about gender, feelings about other religions and belief systems, [Insert Identity Politics Here], etc. etc. are reproduced through day-to-day vernacular transmission modes. Jokes are one of these modes, an especially powerful one as they combine taste preference ("sense of humor") with value judgement ("do you find it funny or not?"). If someone calls another person on a joke, the genre provides numerous minimizing tropes to defer, deflect, and obfuscate.

But here's the place where I think that most people here and I would both agree: complaining in some vague, secondary, unconnected forum isn't going to help anything. If someone has a problem with something that Mike said, the solution is to confront Mike - either privately or publicly - and talk to him directly. Do you think that the UofM Board of Regents would have done anything if our group had simply wrote editorials in the local LBGTQ newspaper complaining about what bothered us? We did write editorials in Between The Lines and they didn't do damn thing. Our demonstration did. If a person believes something is in bad taste, then they should say so. If someone thinks something isn't funny, they should stand up and speak up. Don't take a screen cap and run elsewhere to complain about it.

The above isn't coming from some sort of hyper-masculine "man up"-type ethos. The goal of confronting another person in these types of situation isn't to tell them that they are wrong or to engage in some sort of public shaming tactic. And posting a screen cap, at this point multiple screen caps, in another public venue is certainly that. The goal should be to engage in discourse, trusting that the o ther person is capable of hearing what you have to say. In the best case scenario, the other person sees the validity of the complaint and moves forward more aware of how something they wrote made another person feel. I guess it comes down to deciding what a person wants to produce with their critique.
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Colgin

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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2015, 04:27:38 AM »

AV - as a U of M grad i am kind of ashamed when I read your story about your experience there. How truly awful. I was at the Law School from '89 to '92 and I found that environment very supportive of LGBT rights.  But that world is kind of insulated in a sense from the rest of the campus even though our quadrangle was in the middle of it all, and I could see how the larger university at that time may have been less tolerant.
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AustinValentine

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Re: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2015, 04:32:12 AM »

AV - as a U of M grad i am kind of ashamed when I read your story about your experience there. How truly awful. I was at the Law School from '89 to '92 and I found that environment very supportive of LGBT rights.  But that world is kind of insulated in a sense from the rest of the campus even though our quadrangle was in the middle of it all, and I could see how the larger university at that time may have been less tolerant.

In it's defense, the campus was far more supportive than almost anywhere else during that time period. It's why we were able to get the regents to pass the non-discrimination by-law at all in the first place. But the local establishments (bars, restaurants, practically everywhere but bookstores) began refusing to serve because they didn't want to risk the stigma of becoming a "gay bar" etc.

It was just screwed up times all around. Ann Arbor is like gay El Dorado these days, so there is that.
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kothganesh

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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2015, 04:34:42 AM »

Austin, as another UoM grad (1982/87), I am kinda shocked as well on reading your experience. If anything I thought AA was pretty liberal. I know for a fact that places like Ulrichs and University Cellar were very liberal and left-leaning establishments but I suppose one cannot extrapolate.
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AustinValentine

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Re: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 04:43:23 AM »

Austin, as another UoM grad (1982/87), I am kinda shocked as well on reading your experience. If anything I thought AA was pretty liberal. I know for a fact that places like Ulrichs and University Cellar were very liberal and left-leaning establishments but I suppose one cannot extrapolate.

Ha! University Cellar was exactly what I was thinking of when I said "everywhere but the bookstores." Well, that and Common Language - where all the Second-Wavers hung out. Note: I wasn't a student at UofM, I just hung out there quite a bit. (UDMercy grad here, though I did teach a creative writing class at UofM-AA in mid-2000s.)

Ann Arbor (along with Royal Oak and Ferndale) were, and still are, the most LBGTQ-friendly cities in Michigan.
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Kunlun

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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2015, 04:48:47 AM »

Thanks for sharing, AV. It's important.

Can we have a compromise where hating on, assaulting or denying the basic human rights of a person for their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. are completely wrong...

But where we can still make fun of Lachlan a little for being a self-righteous prig?

Not that his motives are bad and not denying what prejudices he's had to deal with, but just in the recognition that if he's not a college freshman then he's one in spirit in terms of being a bit annoying.



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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 05:04:14 AM »

Ann Arbor / Detroit was by far the gayest place I've ever lived in. Had more LGBT friends (yes, plural) there than I ever did in California. Funny how that happens. All of my LGBT friends were ... very normal. A lot of them were in tech so they used PCs. Seemed like the straight people used macs.

When I left Ann Arbor in 2002, there was one gay bar. Most of other the gay bars in the area were in god forsaken places in the Detroit Metro area.

I didn't know Mike Moffat encouraged violence against LGBT people. Quite frankly, I think Paramount is more wrong than Mike Moffat by not making most of the science officers on the Enterprise of Asian decent, or making Khan a fucking Englishman. I find the actions of Hollywood far more soul-crushing to Asian men than the words (taken out of context and the overall point he was trying to make) of Mike are to transgendered people.
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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 05:14:07 AM »

While your personal experience is enlightening and I agree the copy/paste was a simple exercise in narcissism by a sad individual who craves constant attention, this whole thing is ridiculous and the pendulum has simply swung too far in society. People are bitching about stuff they simply don't understand logically due to their own emotional insecurity. What do I mean by that?

Mike made a comment joking about a certain group perhaps preferring Macs over PCs. Wow!! BFD. What if I don't joke and say girls prefer to wear pink and boys prefer pick-up trucks? This is far more damning and stereotypical logically speaking. Will this lead to an increase in hate crimes and physical violence? What do you do with actual FACTS when they demonstrate a stereotype to be largely true? What if the LGBT community does actually prefer Apple products? You can't express that fact anymore?? Pft...

If you want to be treated like a normal member of society equally, stop acting like you are something special above everyone else. Learn to be wise in your actions, aware of your surroundings and defend yourself. There are more crimes perpetrated by heterosexuals against other heterosexuals daily. The fantasy world certain groups of people want to create where no one will ever want to hurt someone else because of their gender, sexual preference, income level, race, ethnicity, intellect, physical appearance, or ideology simply does not and will NEVER exist. If you think an extraneous law here or rule there with random police scattered about will ultimately save someone, you are mistaken. Dialogue, discourse, education and personal responsibility are the keys. A successful democratic society is built from the ground up, not the top down.

In a world where people are being buried alive, decapitated or incited to burn cities to the ground, I cannot fucking believe anyone gives a rat's ass what Mike jokingly thinks a Macbook user looks like. Btw, he uses a Macbook too so GROW THE FUCK UP PEOPLE!

The world today could use a lot less insecure sensitivity projecting into everyone else's personal space and a revival of a much better sense of humour.

I'll leave this here below, I have nothing more to say on the matter including my experiences with prejudice from all sides as truth and facts should stand on their own merits...






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Griffon

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Re: Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 05:43:01 AM »

If you want to be treated like a normal member of society equally, stop acting like you are something special above everyone else.

This. I don't give a god damn fcuk about if anyone being a LGBTQ, but I'm royally pissed off by those people whose identity revolves around being a LGBTQ. As if being LGBTQ gives them a privilige to be babied. The annoyence doesn't come from their being LGBTQ; it comes from their sense of being a priviliged group.

I feel this is likely attributed to a culture that if one is in possession of something (be it object or identity) one is automatically granted some special status, passively or actively - just like some of the headphone enthusiasts will judge someone using Beats as tasteless, or the advertising of living in X neighbourhood is like belonging to the nobility, or wearing a Rolex equals to having a successful career, or believing in a certain religion makes one a good person - all of which are just bullshit to me. No, being LGBTQ is not exclusive from being an asshole, and if you are an asshole, don't expect other people will always tolerate you.
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ultrabike

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Re: What To Do If You Don't "Like A Thing"
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 05:49:50 AM »

IMO, sexual orientation does not make a person remarkable. Love, kindness, loyalty, valor, hard-work, self-sacrifice and so on are perhaps more remarkable.

Growing up there was (and still is) this famous Mexican openly gay singer by the name of Alberto Aguilera (better known as Juan Gabriel). He got made fun of many times at many levels. Given JG sexual orientation, my father had little respect for this singer. However, my father eventually learned a bit about his story. It seems that among his siblings he was the only one that took good care of his mother, who was a maid for a then powerful Juarez family (which I happen to know relatively well). JG bought the mansion in which she used to work and gave it to her mother and did many other good and respectable deeds. Along with other couples, my parents went to some of his concerts and they loved it.

My father would say now that JG is more man than some men (it's a figure of speech "Juan Gabriel es mas hombre que muchos hombres").

As far as Mike, more than once have I found myself saying something inappropriate w/o meaning to offend. I don't know Mike well, but I feel his intentions were not to hurt anybody.
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