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Author Topic: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison  (Read 5918 times)

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Deep Funk

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2014, 06:57:40 AM »

Honest with genuine testing methodology. Too bad their ears can't hear what should have been drastic differences to us.

I wanted to rock the boat with that article, but none of us care enough  :)p13

It is a minefield to simply say to the authors "you are ... because" or "you have a point in ... to ..." etcetera. In the context of their experience and expectations it might be that the test on Tom's Hardware might be the best they can do.

Some of their assumptions do not match my experience through the years. Followed by a silly and limited collection of audio sources and lacking understanding of the currrent audio market I can only think the authors missed their own mark.

They can keep their 2 Dollar source. Their core statement is that they are satisfied with it...
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Hroðulf

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2014, 10:31:33 AM »

Like the DAC1, it's a by the numbers device, with parts chosen likely for their numbers rather than what they might actually sound like. The ODAC philosophy is very similar, but at its price it's easier to forgive.

Well, the QRV-08 amp me and Fishski built are also purely design-by-numbers devices. A bit overkill in topology, but executed with dime-store parts. And the performance is up there with the best afaik.

The O2 on the other hand, whilst measuring good, didn't wow me and the other guys neither sound nor circuit wise. I have a feeling that The Wire delivers more of what the NWAVG promised.
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olor1n

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2014, 12:13:52 PM »

Indeed. To me it depends on where I arbitrarily place my threshold of what is acceptable.

Furthermore, IMO headphones tend to cap performance. DACs and Amps can only do so much. I have not heard of a DAC or Amp that will turn United Airlines free-phones into HD800s (even KG and "think-objective" ones).

If looking for bang for the buck, and if pursuit for the ultimate plankton fart level of performance is not a priority, I would say the $2 deal sounds pretty good.

I think experience of what one gets as one goes up in level of performance, what one is willing to live with, and what one is willing to pay for is a pretty valid and personal determining factor.

I personally for one cannot understand how the ODAC+O2 at $290 is a low cost value proposition when faced w say a $50 Creative X-Fi thingy, or indeed a $2 ALC889 solution. Nor how such a combo became the de facto threshold of high fidelity that some think should be accepted by all, when cheaper or more expensive alternatives could suit any given person depending on his or her priorities.

Nailed it.

If everyone adhered to this view though there would be nothing to fuel the fanboy battles. What would the point of forums be in this environment? Civility and open discourse of what it is we actually enjoy about this hobby? Pffft, that blows.

Plankton fart level. Lol.
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jerrolds

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2015, 09:35:37 PM »

Sorry for necroing this thread, but i think the methodology they used was above and beyond most that ive seen on here and other forums.  Do you really think most of us can tell the difference between quality dacs/amps (especially neutral/non coloring) in a double blind test when correctly level matched?

An O2/Dac vs Gungnir/Rag vs Xonar vs Polaris vs HDVD800?

I understand some people might be able to train themselves to be VERY familiar with their stacks sound signature, especially with their favorite tracks.  But id like to know if these trained ears can really tell the difference between hiqh quality source files (FLAC or even 320kb mp3s) and a $200 O2 vs $1000+ stacks on music theyre not familiar with.

Measurements are awesome, repeatable with no luck involved - but double blind testing with real people, especially audiophiles would also be great and the best way to measure "subjective opinions". I'm surprised theres no double blind testing at giant headphone meets.
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zerodeefex

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2015, 09:44:46 PM »

Good luck setting up a controlled experiment during a busy, loud meet in non-ideal conditions.

Interestingly, Anax actually sat down at a vendor's booth at a meet in Feb 2014 and immediately told them their music sounded like shit. Like compressed MP3s.

He came back later because they wanted him to to take another audition. Again he said the same thing when he took a listen with his HD800s. Turns out they were using 320kbps MP3s.


Edit: also, I would not trust Tom's Hardware to come up with a rigorous testing methodology if it came and bit them in the ass. They're not Anand Lal Shimpi and he's still an enthusiast, not a scientist.
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jerrolds

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2015, 10:09:02 PM »

Attacking the testing methodology itself is vaild, but i dont think its fair to attack the tester if they followed correct testing process - scientist or not.

Did Anax switch the 320kbs with FLAC/DSD files, and was able to tell the difference (consistently) in the same setup?

I personally thought the tests he did was pretty detailed, and showed a level of transparency that most reviewers would not consider. I just wish he had more subjects, maybe some from the industry (Tyll/Marvey/Nwavguy) etc?) if possible.

It would be nice if the measurement threads came with some double blind testing, especially when people claim things like "better clarity in the upper mid range, more textured bass, less strident highs" with different amps/dacs pairings with headphones.

If i were pushing a DAC/AMP and think it rivals equipment much more expensive, i would think about getting those soundproof booths similiar to what they have in eSports games tournaments and let everyone in and compare their equipment head to head.
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shotgunshane

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2015, 02:15:06 AM »

Sorry for necroing this thread, but i think the methodology they used was above and beyond most that ive seen on here and other forums.  Do you really think most of us can tell the difference between quality dacs/amps (especially neutral/non coloring) in a double blind test when correctly level matched?

An O2/Dac vs Gungnir/Rag vs Xonar vs Polaris vs HDVD800?

I understand some people might be able to train themselves to be VERY familiar with their stacks sound signature, especially with their favorite tracks.  But id like to know if these trained ears can really tell the difference between hiqh quality source files (FLAC or even 320kb mp3s) and a $200 O2 vs $1000+ stacks on music theyre not familiar with.

Measurements are awesome, repeatable with no luck involved - but double blind testing with real people, especially audiophiles would also be great and the best way to measure "subjective opinions". I'm surprised theres no double blind testing at giant headphone meets.


Wait, so you say you understand someone might be so familiar with their own stack and songs that they could train themselves to tell a difference but given stacks they are unfamiliar and songs they are unfamiliar with they wouldn't be able to do it? Priceless. Either there is a difference or there isn't. You can't train yourself to pick out something that doesn't exist. (Circular argument to follow).
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ultrabike

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2015, 03:20:06 AM »

Sorry for necroing this thread, but i think the methodology they used was above and beyond most that ive seen on here and other forums. 

I read that page a few years ago I think. I found the reading interesting and engaging. But I don't think the methodology was above and beyond most of what I've seen. To me the study says that if your goal is "good enough" and not ultimate fidelity, then $2 should be fine.

Do you really think most of us can tell the difference between quality dacs/amps (especially neutral/non coloring) in a double blind test when correctly level matched?

An O2/Dac vs Gungnir/Rag vs Xonar vs Polaris vs HDVD800?

Perhaps not as easy as comparing with a $2 solution, but yes, I think it's possible.

I understand some people might be able to train themselves to be VERY familiar with their stacks sound signature, especially with their favorite tracks.  But id like to know if these trained ears can really tell the difference between hiqh quality source files (FLAC or even 320kb mp3s) and a $200 O2 vs $1000+ stacks on music theyre not familiar with.

Harder that with CrapWare. But in some cases, I believe so. One might not be able to tell which one is "right" in the absolute sense though. Just which source/setup one likes most.

Measurements are awesome, repeatable with no luck involved - but double blind testing with real people, especially audiophiles would also be great and the best way to measure "subjective opinions". 

Measurements are as good as the measurement equipment and the assumptions one makes when developing them and interpreting them. I feel the assumptions and interpretation involve some subjectiveness, and sometimes luck.

I'm surprised theres no double blind testing at giant headphone meets.

I'm not. It's fairly impractical for one, and I feel most people are more curious about how a particular setup sounds and if they like it in a more absolute sense first. Comparisons to one's own frame of reference and other gear is of great interest of course. However, doing double blind test for all or some equipment in the meet may become a bit not-so fun vs. just checking things out. To much stuff out there, and some stuff one just does not like regardless of blind testing.

I mean, even in that study if blind testing was so fun, one would probably see these guys doing it with all their repertoire (not these few songs here and there), and screw the O2 and Benchmark... le ts bring on EVERYTHING and blind test it!...  p:8
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ultrabike

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2015, 03:24:19 AM »

I also forgot to point out that "$2" in that page is a bit sensationalist. It's an integrated solution and it will not work unless it's supplied with power, an interface, and so forth... Then does $2 are not $2 anymore...
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OJneg

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Re: Tomshardware - $2 vs $200 vs $2000 DAC comparison
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2015, 03:43:17 AM »

I also forgot to point out that "$2" in that page is a bit sensationalist. It's an integrated solution and it will not work unless it's supplied with power, an interface, and so forth... Then does $2 are not $2 anymore...

It's like saying the DAC chip in high-end DAC X, Y, or Z costs $10 so therefore it's a $10 solution!
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