CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Main Deck => Discussion for Registered Members Only => Topic started by: socrates on December 05, 2012, 03:01:40 PM
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Okay, dudes, so* can someone with, like, the proper test gear FINALLY quantify the following nagging Q's:
++ Hair between pad (cushions) and head (dummy plastic and/or natural skin/flesh/bone) -- even with non-sealed cans, how does hair caught between pad and head affect FR/CSD and/or SQ? Purrin' ... can you test this on your dummy somehow?
++ Pad deformity/shape -- many foam types flatten over time changing interface geometry. Not sure this is good or bad ... e.g., flatter (worn out) pads do close transducer/ear gap (this may be good or bad). On the test dummy, you many want to "simply" clamp ear cups in a bit more.
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* I resisted the temptation... (http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2011/12/02/so-it-turns-out-that-everyones-starting-sentences-with-so/)
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We've seen artifacts from a stray hair or two. Of course we clean it up and remeasure and dump the old capture, so.....
Tyll, I believe, did a pad compression article w/ measurements if I recall.
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- Pad compression makes a difference. The closer the driver to the ear, the more measured bass.
- A clump of hair will interfere with the seal. Seal is tends to be more critical for closed headphones than open headphones (for obvious reason). This is actually a great idea - to measure with hair. Sometimes I get too much seal and actually program the compensation curve to take away bass... Other times I get too little seal. I'm sure Tyll knows what a pain it is trying to get consisting seal and bass measurements.
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- Pad compression makes a difference. The closer the driver to the ear, the more measured bass.
- A clump of hair will interfere with the seal. Seal is tends to be more critical for closed headphones than open headphones (for obvious reason). This is actually a great idea - to measure with hair. Sometimes I get too much seal and actually program the compensation curve to take away bass... Other times I get too little seal. I'm sure Tyll knows what a pain it is trying to get consisting seal and bass measurements.
Well typically it is the upper part of the earpads that come into contact with hair that's right above the ears, so you could just adhere some hair at those locations of the dummy, see if it does what you expect (a bit less bass).
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Why does seal matter more with closed headphones? I can't think of why that would be...
Except that closed headphones often have pads that are designed to seal for isolation, so they are designed and tuned with a seal in mind, so you break the seal, and it's then not operating in the right environment. And open headphones often have velour or other pads that don't seal as well in the first place, so it's not a big factor.
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Why does seal matter more with closed headphones? I can't think of why that would be...
Except that closed headphones often have pads that are designed to seal for isolation, so they are designed and tuned with a seal in mind, so you break the seal, and it's then not operating in the right environment. And open headphones often have velour or other pads that don't seal as well in the first place, so it's not a big factor.
One exception would be Audeze headphones. Especially LCD3s which have been reported as having too good of a seal causing some vacuum effects on certain owners' eardrums.
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Orthos are different, or usually are. Audeze are more traditional, and are damped and require a seal. Hifiman is doing god knows what with no damping and a bad pad seal.
Generally orthos need a good seal. Sometimes you can get away with not having it though, and there are lots of benefits.
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Most older orthos didn't have enough bass to get away with having no seal. The newer orthos really shouldn't have any problems pulling off 'leaky pads' with their huge drivers, it really should make an interesting experiment if someone tries some velour pads on an Audeze phone.
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Why does seal matter more with closed headphones?...
closed headphones often... are designed to seal...
so, they are designed and tuned with a seal in mind... you break the seal, and it's then not operating in the right environment...
Exactly. Think of a sealed cup as a small chamber with higher pressure then the surrounding outside air.
If the driver is heavily relying on damping from the internal cup pressure, then changing that pressure slightly will either:
A)change sound in accordance with the impedance curve whilst simultaneously reducing overall SPL
or
B)leave the driver under-damped :gross:
I'm assuming that Audeze is using pad seal to "mass"-damp the front of the driver, and HifiMan is going straight for optimal driver tensioning...
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Actually Hifiman's newest 2 orthos don't use damping at all.
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They don't use external damping.
properly tensioned drivers is kinda-sorta damping, IMO.
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Better to use separate terms then because the Audeze drivers are tensioned as well.
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Duely noted! an edit has been made.
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Good fdbk folks...
Weird ... just noted a similar-themed Dec 4th article on pad deformity @ Headfonia, "What Happens As The Cushion Pads Ages":
http://www.headfonia.com/what-happens-as-the-cushion-pads-ages/
I swear to dog, fellas ... I found that article AFTER posting here. This topic's bug must be in the air.
Anyway ...
On my Beyers (dt880, 990), I have noted that flattened cushion pads tend to gap more at the bottom; that is, the Beyer's clamp (seal) is not even in the TRUE circumaural "dimension" ... at least with my head/skull geometry. The more worn (=flattened) the pads, the more signif. the gap. Also, that smaller gap causes the ear to touch/rub against that foam (sheet) filter, effectively wearing a hole in it.
Now, pardon me ... I've got a dog to kick.
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And open headphones often have velour or other pads that don't seal as well in the first place, so it's not a big factor.
Even with open-air or semi-sealed models ... the headphone's orig. designer probab. TUNED the can's FR/CSD for the DEFAULT pad material. So even cans with porous or soft pad material (foam, velour, felt, etc) may be compromised with hair or worn-out (flattened, "leaking") pads. Like a bass-reflex (vented/ported) loudspeaker which has funky foam in the port.
The pad/foam (when new) is also part of the can's waveguide, and changing it changes dispersion.
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That latest and greatest article about pad deformation on headfonia had me giggling a good bit. Dude basically describes as HD800 as 'unlistenable' until he got new pads. poo
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I like how he didn't even notice they were a different design with different dimensions..... :-Z
I asked and he said the original pads were never washed or dried. Removing those as possibilities I find it hard to believe the new pad will turn into the old pad through simple use. I've never seen that older pad on any HD800 and I've seen/listened close to 10 of them by now.
Could explain why he cherishes the HD700 so much in comparison. Nah, nvm, the explanation is worse than that.
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I didn't even know the HD800 pads were replaceable. I looked at them, pulled slightly and once I saw nothing happened, I didn't made further checks. I guess my pair has the "older" pads then. In any case I haven't noticed differences on sound for wearing glasses or the hair length.
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Seriously. Is that Headphoney-A guy an XXXXX or something? As Anax noted above, the "new" pads are an entirely new and different design. They are flatter, thus moving the driver closer to the ear.
Closer to the ear = less forward / less upper-mids + treble.
Did he just wake up one day and decided his HD800s were WTF? Or how the heck were the worn pads fluffed up so much anyways?
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That latest and greatest article about pad deformation on headfonia had me giggling a good bit. Dude basically describes as HD800 as 'unlistenable' until he got new pads. poo
Commercial sites like Headfonia live on NEW REGULARLY-CREATED/"ORIGINAL" ** content (that's how SEs give higher SERPs and (for Google) PR). I could create some BS non-fact-checked article/topic that sounds/reads good to the general uninformed or UNDER-EXAMINING visitor ... whatever the eff it takes to get the SERP and PR and Alexa up high in the SEs...gotta get people to those Banner Ads and Amazon tracking links. So make sure we write in complete sentences, spell/grammar check your prose. It's all about the IMAGE ... and Mike's a GREAT photographer, too ... his site sure is pretty and well laid out (an honest compliment!)
But that "Mike" (or whatever the eff his real name(s) is/are/will be) is really full o' poo when it comes to MANY things headphoney. You an say that about a lot of these Johnny-come-lately sites cashing in on the head-gear boom ... H-F.org, IF, ABIP, IAM, etc, etc.
The one good thing about Headfonia is its DISQUS board. "Mike" pretty much lets one say anything in the comments area (proab. only 'cause it's free content that boosts his SERP/PR/Alexs) ... unlike Mansilla&Currawong's Kingdom or (especially) THIS place ;) Oh but those "Banned" insignias are great for drama. But I liked em better when had an "!" [Banned!] in fiery red. Not ... the new pussied version:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/-ug4aJhiwxd4/TiXa_VhHYxI/AAAAAAAAA_g/brz5yNrR9Ec/head-fi-banned_thumb.jpg?imgmax=800)
** For more on Content-is-King rule Google "SEO (search engine optimization)". What you'll get is a seeming endless list of Services, Sites and Books ... all willing to boost your SE metrics ... for a $. Hmmm ... I wonder if Headfonia is a pro job (outsourced SEO, site development), or did Mikey or one of his partners do it inside. It's Alexa is 139,611 and PR=4. Meanwhile, H-F.org is sittin' pretty at Alexa = 8,824 (WOW!!, it was >40K only a few mos. ago ... Jude's gettin' paid like a mo-fo ... must be nice to be a "non-profit" (dot.org) these days!!)
Yeah, with that $olid track record (= meteoric rise), I can see why Anal-X and his fellow buttholes got poop-canned ;) I prefer drive-by's myself ... but Mansilla's slicker ... like his used-motor-oil hair tonic :vomit:
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The one good thing about Headfonia is its DISQUS board. "Mike" pretty much lets one say anything in the comments area (proab. only 'cause it's free content that boosts his SERP/PR/Alexs) ... unlike Mansilla&Currawong's Kingdom or (especially) THIS place ;) Oh but those "Banned" insignias are great for drama. But I liked em better when had an "!" [Banned!] in fiery red. Not ... the new pussied version:
You may or may not be Dale, but as far as I can tell it seems you have been banned as 13mh13, headfone, hans13, hollowman, hollow_man and so on. Unless Y-O-U A-R-E N-O-T 1-3-M-H-1-3...
Either way you keep preaching about Alexa, "vested interest", and about the need to criticize "all these sites and opinions" using the exact same tone as 13mh13. Why so? Because you were banned? Did someone hurt your feelings? Does this summarizes all there is to it about audio and the audio community for you: https://sites.google.com/site/audiothiest/ (https://sites.google.com/site/audiothiest/)
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That latest and greatest article about pad deformation on headfonia had me giggling a good bit. Dude basically describes as HD800 as 'unlistenable' until he got new pads. poo
Commercial sites like Headfonia live on NEW REGULARLY-CREATED/"ORIGINAL" ** content (that's how SEs give higher SERPs and (for Google) PR). I could create some BS non-fact-checked article/topic that sounds/reads good to the general uninformed or UNDER-EXAMINING visitor ... whatever the eff it takes to get the SERP and PR and Alexa up high in the SEs...gotta get people to those Banner Ads and Amazon tracking links. So make sure we write in complete sentences, spell/grammar check your prose. It's all about the IMAGE ... and Mike's a GREAT photographer, too ... his site sure is pretty and well laid out (an honest compliment!)
But that "Mike" (or whatever the eff his real name(s) is/are/will be) is really full o' poo when it comes to MANY things headphoney. You an say that about a lot of these Johnny-come-lately sites cashing in on the head-gear boom ... H-F.org, IF, ABIP, IAM, etc, etc.
The one good thing about Headfonia is its DISQUS board. "Mike" pretty much lets one say anything in the comments area (proab. only 'cause it's free content that boosts his SERP/PR/Alexs) ... unlike Mansilla&Currawong's Kingdom or (especially) THIS place ;) Oh but those "Banned" insignias are great for drama. But I liked em better when had an "!" [Banned!] in fiery red. Not ... the new pussied version:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/-ug4aJhiwxd4/TiXa_VhHYxI/AAAAAAAAA_g/brz5yNrR9Ec/head-fi-banned_thumb.jpg?imgmax=800)
** For more on Content-is-King rule Google "SEO (search engine optimization)". What you'll get is a seeming endless list of Services, Sites and Books ... all willing to boost your SE metrics ... for a $. Hmmm ... I wonder if Headfonia is a pro job (outsourced SEO, site development), or did Mikey or one of his partners do it inside. It's Alexa is 139,611 and PR=4. Meanwhile, H-F.org is sittin' pretty at Alexa = 8,824 (WOW!!, it was >40K only a few mos. ago ... Jude's gettin' paid like a mo-fo ... must be nice to be a "non-profit" (dot.org) these days!!)
Yeah, with that $olid track record (= meteoric rise), I can see why Anal-X and his fellow buttholes got poop-canned ;) I prefer drive-by's myself ... but Mansilla's slicker ... like his used-motor-oil hair tonic :vomit:
I tried to understand this post, but I'd rather put a fucking hammer through my head.
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Best first post, ever! :)p1
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...
I tried to understand this post, but I'd rather put a fucking hammer through my head.
I did understand that and I still felt like putting a hammer through my head...
Karma boost!