CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => IEM Measurements => Topic started by: Anaxilus on February 24, 2014, 01:24:39 AM
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Construction is best I’ve seen in universal since the FitEar 334. Sound not quite up to price tag relative to the top-end competition (performance wise, not price) in my opinion. Filter system is neat however rather tedious.
Note-I used stock tips, did not tip roll as none were available at the time.
Treble filter
-not so hot, too U shaped
-bass not very resolving or textured next to UERM. Mid to low bass is okay but a tad too warm and murky by comparison. -Top end more uneven and fatiguing due to u shape, smoother than uerm. Imaging not as good, blackground greyer, inner dynamics too flat and smooth, no inner detail or sufficient air or space for notes to breathe.
-Piano sounds plastic/teflon with typical Shure timbre that drives me crazy. Notes linger and reverb a bit too much hurting imaging and resolution. Some might like it as an overly psychoacoustic 'natural' effect.
Medium filter
-most balanced of the lot
-cleans up the Shure a little but it’s just a step behind the best in the biz.
Lesser transparency is clear in A/B. Reminds me a bit of the Unique Melody signature grey sound. Bass guitar still sounds like a hazy blob of reverb on Spyro Gyra. Ride and crash are just buried along with the bongo drums all of which come back once switching back to the UERM. Bass guitar is properly defined/imaged and piano has more natural timbre with all the appropriate harmonics on display using the UERM
Bass filter not used, couldn’t stand to have less treble than the Medium filter which seems pretty accurate already.
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Thanks, that saves me a bunch of money.
The UERM does pretty well with timbre.
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Disappointing. Was thinking about picking up some new high end IEMs or CIEMs at RMAF this year, but I wonder if there's anything that's an actual improvement over UERMs yet. As good as they are the UERM is far from perfect, lots of room to improve.
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I wonder if there are any high end universal IEMs that are worth the price and are up there with adequate performance.
Also wish there were universal version of UERM. UE please...
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I heard these at SeaTac airport and I believe the bass filters were installed. All I can say is never use the bass filters with these. The bass was nice and punchy for a BA, but the treble was rolled off like every other Shure I've heard and threw off the tonal balance for me.
Not worth $1000 IMO.
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Whoa there folks. What's with all the sudden "no longer considering these" comments? With respect to Anax, I trust his ears, but I don't think he'd want any of you to suddenly write something off without hearing it yourself just based on a single set of semi-negative impressions.
For instance I'm extremely happy with the Shure SE846. They're not perfect, no, but to my ears they're one of the absolute best universals on the market right now. I'd take them over the IE800, K3003, FI-BA-SS, 1Plus2, and universal FitEars. I've also got a pair of the UM Mentors, and sonically I vastly prefer the Shures.
In other words, this is one of those times where I have to disagree with the subjective assessment.
Also re: bass filter
The bass filter is awful and not at all indicative of the other filters.
I find these to have the best overall balance and timbre with the medium filters and Shure's stock tips.
If I were to ever downsize my collection of IEMs, the Shures would stay for sure.
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Thanks!
Well, Steve Guttenberg liked the 846 over the JH Roxannes. It really upset some people who have paid and waited 120+ days for their Roxannes...
I'd love for Noble to get a 4.a to anax and Lff, that seems to be something that can really meet and beat the UERM (from having the custom 4C).
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Thanks!
Well, Steve Guttenberg liked the 846 over the JH Roxannes. It really upset some people who have paid and waited 120+ days for their Roxannes...
I'd love for Noble to get a 4.a to anax and Lff, that seems to be something that can really meet and beat the UERM (from having the custom 4C).
Well I think the JH Roxannes sound like utter shit so I'd have to agree w/ Gutty on that one. I've tried every which way many times to get the best out them and it's simply impossible. The JH13FP blows it away.
As for the 846, I'd say they play in the same ballpark w/ the other universals that MF mentioned but they each have their own set of trade-offs so are subjectively sidegrades IMHO. Compared to the best at the same price ranges, the UERM, ES5, and JH13FP blow the 846 away for my metrics. If you are going to cram that many drivers into a shell and charge that much, one should be able to hear an accurate rendering of strings without smearing. The Shure timbre thing seems to be something that bothers some more than others. For me the question when comparing new gear to my personal references is, under what circumstances would I would prefer to use this new piece of gear versus what I already have? In this case, as many others, I have to say zero. But that's just where I come from perspective wise.
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Have had the 846s for the last 4 days. Only purchased them because, although I kinda expected I wouldn't be that impressed, I managed to get a good deal on the pair I have and figured I'd be able to sell them rather quickly here in Europe (£950/$1,590 in the UK!) if I didn't like them. I have to say that I even regretted the purchase as I didn't want to go through the hassle of selling them, but it was too late...
To my surprise, not only did I like them, but have been very, very, very impressed. I prefer the white (treble) filters, but the blue (so-called neutral) ones are still pretty good, though the bass becomes a little more pronounced due to how the treble is presented and how it blends with the mid & low freqs.
Those who know me (from Head-fi) will know I've heard—and owned—quite a few IEMs and a few cans (K3003, ER-4S, F111, TG334, Parterre, FIBASS, FIBASB, IE800 , ES3X [customs], EX1000, EX800 & 7550, FA-4E, KAEDE, SE535, SE530, W4, UM3X, W3, UM2, CK100, CK10, SM3 [utter rubbish!!], HD800, HD600, AKG K141, etc).
My ears have been telling me the 846 is among the very best phones I've ever heard—without a shadow of a doubt—, and I'd definitely take it over the TG334, IE800, FIBASS, Parterre and all the rest of phones I've heard, except the HD800 (and possibly the HD600), the ER4S & K3003, though I'd need to have a proper A/B session (which I tend to really dislike) to determine whether I'd take the SE846s over the K3003s & ER4S (read: right now I cannot honestly say I prefer the ER4S & K3003).
Last night a did a pretty quick comparison between the ER4S & 846s and that's when I realised why I've been blown away by the Shures — the differences weren't that pronounced (ER4S with stock green filters & Shure olives AND a proper fit & seal, 846s with stock grey single-flange silicone tips & white filters).
For the record, I've never been a Shure fan (sold both my SE530 & SE535s within days/weeks after purchasing them, as well as the SE215) and have been very critical of the SEXX5 MMCX connectors & swivel mechanism — curiously enough, I get a better fit with the larger 846 shells than I did with the 535 & 215 shells.
http://grooveshark.com/#!/s/America+Is+Waiting/3LaNgC?src=5
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The 846 can do anything you want them to do period. You can choose not to like them if that makes you happy but it does what the 535 can do and more. Best universal earphone out there period. If you prefer listening to a woman with a guitar then no need to go with this a single BA drive will handle that. If you want a whole band with multitude of instruments then this is for you. You want Jazz it can do it, you want classic rock it can do it, you want a night club it become a night club.
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Anaxilus, You bought the 846 and this is your opinion on them? Besides comparing it to custom earphones how would you compare them to universal earphones? Bass and especially sub bass is warm maybe bass is not your cup of tea. What styles of music did you listen to? Have you ever been to a live concert did a live show sound warm to you?
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Hmm, the 846 must have something to commend it or there wouldn't be such strong supporters!
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The 846 can do anything you want them to do period.
No they can't, period. I think my impressions spell out what I heard pretty clearly.
Are you serious? Yes I've been to many live concerts acoustic and electronic both well and poorly mastered. Have you? I've also played violin and piano. I listen to all styles of music, see our DAC review spreadsheet to get an idea of tracks I use and my musical tastes. The problem with the 846 bass is it simply unresolving and lacking proper texture that is being lost from the original master/recording when compared to the UERM.
You're idea that all live performances sound the same, as in 'warm' however you mean that personally, is problematic. If I can go to a concert these days where the sound engineer hasn't tweaked Scott Weiland into sounding like Axel Rose I'll be over the moon. It seems you might like electronically compressed and overblown bass that blows out phone mics. I can tell you that my own ES5 can hit harder, faster and cleaner than anything from Shure.
As for universal versus custom, I'm not getting into that debate again...yet. I don't listen to universals much anymore except when I need something disposable I don't mind losing too much.
The Shure sound signature is not really my cup of tea for a variety of reasons. When I was new and not a hobbyist, Shure was my main IEM for many years all the way from the E1 to the 500.
These were loaners from CeeTee whom I know in real life personally, I did not buy them. I don't seem to know you as you haven't introduced yourself yet per forum policy.
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Hmm, the 846 must have something to commend it or there wouldn't be such strong supporters!
It sounds like they just have a "pleasing" sound to them. Nothing jumps out at you and makes you walk away. Compared to some of the other high end universals, I think these just take you away from analytical listening in general. Technical proficiencies has never been a Shure staple, but a smooth, laid-back sound that is easy to listen to is what they do best.
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That's what I'm getting from this thread, too.
Some people like plankton, some people like...giant squid (or whatever sea metaphor you like for a sub-bass feel).
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Technical proficiencies has never been a Shure staple, but a smooth, laid-back sound that is easy to listen to is what they do best.
I pretty much agree with this and that's my problem with some gear. Real live music is in your face with a clear and clean sound unless you like to sit further back in a concert hall and let the diffuse away throughout the room and that's your preferred 'sound'. So if you know how close the original recording is to the real thing, if the gear just crushes it or manipulates it, then that's not my thing. If I know the quality of my live recording, I'm not going to tolerate it sounding like radio, especially if doing so ends up costing me a lot of money.
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Anyway, there's a lot more to breaking down a music's rendering than just plankton or squid. But yes, preferences matter.
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Well I have been to various live concerts in my years. I can say well over 200 live concerts since 1976. Yes not all will be anywhere to perfect but they are live and not controlled in a studio where it can sound any way they want it to sound. Also no I have never been to a live show with one person playing one instrument so I am not familiar with that style of music. In this hobby it can be easy to search for what is not right and then point that out but I like to search for what I like and enjoy those areas that I like. Ofcourse no earphone can be perfect and the ones one likes will have limitations depending on different styles of music out there. One earphone can make that piano sound marvelous but it doesnt mean it will please everybody who might enjoy other kinds of music. Stone Temple Pilots live has a lot of sub bass when Eric pounds his bass drum. I understand you do not like the Shure sound but that does not mean it can please others. What I am trying to make clear is a review can lead others who do not have that special taste or ear for finding what faults can easily be steered to a wrong earphone. If I am in seach of and earphone that can pound the bass while keeping the meds and highs clear and I go with the old Ultimate Ears Vocal Reference Monitors or the JH 13 thinking they are going to provide the bass I will not be pleased. But if I want to listen to a piano or say james taylor live then those two earphones might do the job.
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I'll just vehemently disagree with your assertion that a studio master recording is doing more to manipulate sound than most live amplified concerts and nightclubs and leave it there. If people are after coloration to manipulate their music to give off that effect, that's fine, personal preference. However, when reviewing gear, fidelity is often the preferences frame of reference and usually assumed if not caveated up front.
Regardless of musical/personal preference, I don't see anyone taking anything I said about the 846 out of context. It's pretty clear for all to see. If you like bass quality, quantity is no substitute. Nothing about the 846 bass rendition struck me as close to any live concert I've heard, amplified or not. Still sounds rather grey, fake and unnatural to me whether it's Neil Peart, Flea, Massive Attack or Buddy Rich. I'd likely prefer the bass of my old Monster Miles Davis Tributes or a Radius DDM over the 846 tbh.
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Wow I would love to check those out and hear what they sound like!!
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I also prefer the bass from a dynamic driver. To be clear in the studio they also amplify? In the studio they can redo it over and over until its done right? Do they place the drum set in the same room or do they isolate the drummer? In my experience many singers do not sound the same live as they did on their record or cd. Thanks for helping me understand better.
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Good point about different sorts of mixing/amplification whether one is in the studio or a live concert. With classical music such as a large scale symphony, it can be very difficult to capture the feel of being there even it's a live recording. A musician recently wrote about listening to Mahler on recording versus being there live. He said of Mahler's 8th (and posted a recording), "I was lucky enough to hear this live at Carnegie Hall one time. It's almost sad listening to a little youtube video of it because the real thing live is like GLORIA PATRI DOMINO IN SAECULORUM SAECULA and you f_cking believe it."
So, yeah, I can see how there are differing philosophies and different gear is going to get us to each place. I didn't mean to overly simplify things, but I definitely see a difference between gear that is designed for fidelity to a recording versus trying to give a live sound experience. I have a feeling that's going to unintentionally annoy, so let me explain:
I would like ask further about describing live sound in this discussion, Anax. I've been thinking about this for a while with the last few years of concerts, mostly classical and Indian classical for me: For my ears, compared to treble boosted "audiophile" iems and headphones, real live music sounds slightly darker because treble gets blocked more easily such as by the lady in the row ahead of you with giant hair, etc. while bass resounds and you can feel the air move with low frequencies as much as hear it. In a big concert hall, some of the bright harmonics won't be as evident. It's clean just as you say, but the tonality is different than with audiophile type earphones--for example the unmodded Abyss I heard out of the Woo whatever at the last NY audio meet. I imagine with rock or pop, the amplification also adds some extra bass, not to mention the roar of the crowd, along with lifted vocal ranges so you can hear them (and they can hear themselves if they are using wedges). That's what many folks then associate with the "real" sound, even if it's just one kind of coloration among several valid choices.
From that perspective, a stage monitor or something similar, with sub-bass, a lifted vocal range and a slightly dark tonality, could match the live experience of a typical listener. Sounds like the 846 still failed even that for you, but succeeded for lowdown?
And I'll join the party and agree that the bass from a decent dynamic driver is much preferred for me as well.
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Oh, and in terms of live bass in a classical setting:
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2e3q0s3.jpg)
I love this!
(from Mahler's 6th)
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This animated gif is for real? Absolutely hilarious :).
To give my 2cts. on the 846. While I agree with Anax that they're not going to win the resolution and clarity context of the year, it doesn't necesseraly means they should be considered as a terribly overpriced piece of junk. Maybe because I come to them from a different angle, in the sense I am not trying to replicate my home rig sound signature, I personnally enjoy very much the voicing of the 846 as it's simply foot tapping experience for all the music I listen to on the go.
Mind you, I am originally pretty happy with the house sound, I still own se315 which are very medium centric but get that bit right at least. The 846 might be too much more $$$ for the sound difference but, as a lower model shure owner, I enjoy the extension at both ends of the spectrum while still being cohesive. I can't stand the fitears & 1+2 universals i tried for this reason: the upper mids / lower treble feels detached from the rest - maybe due to some boost to increase liveliness. The thing is these iems just did not sound natural to me / were simply annoying.
You might say the 315 is not the end of line for shure and a comparaison against the 535 would be more appropriate. I don't have much experience with these as I bought the 315 because I felt it was the sweet spot in the line at the time. More recently, I did go back and forth between the 846 and 535se using the same source (iphone 5, I haven't found a player worth the hassle to carry around just yet). In this comparison, what jumped at me was that the 846 sounded less compressed, the 535se quickly becoming harsh when increasing the volume. The 846 has this ability to draw you into the music, maybe because of the bass emphasis, but for me it's the effortless rendering that wins me over, like a good well blended multi-drivers speaker.
Here also, many think it's an heresy to use an iphone or ipod when shelling out so much money for an iem. Maybe so, it's just hard to beat the convenience (I'd rather spend the money on the transducers than some buggy UI in a bulky enclosure, and it's not that easy to find something that truly works with iems, starting with the low zout).
Last, about the filters and bass tightness. The bass was clearly much cleaner and also not so present (just the right quantity for me) when i used a pico-power instead of the iphone's output, maybe partly due to the iphone's output Z ( > 3ohms vs. probably <<1ohm for the headamp). As such, the blue (neutral) would be my go to filter if using a high quality dap or amp upstream with low Zout. The nice thing here though is
I can hift the tonal balance back to comfortable zone using the white (bright) filter with the iphone 5 straight amp out.
As a concluding remark, I'd echo MF's words: don't dismiss entirely until you can give them a fare shake. For me, they were a welcome relief from other popular universals that somehow don't mesh with personal taste.
Happy listenings,
Arnaud
Edit: sp.
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Arnaud , You described it very well exactly what I feel about the 846. No matter how well one earphone is there are many others that can reproduce music well in there own way. In my experience no one earphone will make me truely happy each earphone does things differently even within the same brand such as the Shure 530 to the 846 or the Ultimate ears 5EB to their wonderful TripleFi 10.
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Absolutely, don't dismiss something entirely because I or anyone else find issues with it. I never said it sucked though I do think it is a tad overpriced. Remember, I find issues with everything and in the end it's about picking the lesser of the most important evils for you. I have my own set of metrics that I feel best applies to how I believe is the best overall way to evaluate fidelity subjectively is using the most comprehensive and accurate way I think I can that is most analogous to my thinking on the matter. I like to think that as people get to know how the different ears that review stuff around here listen to things, they will better relate each others opinions to their own understandings. Some might find they hear more similarly to some and not to others or may be able to triangulate something in the middle of varied impressions. There are no overarching absolutes, just impressionable data to be analyzed for consumption.
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I'm hoping LFF will chime in more comprehensively on the matter as that's up his wheel house. I can say it depends on the band, studio and other factors like end user preferences and mastering biases. However, I find that the studio tend to do more to try and be more accurate than most live concerts that rely on electronic amplification for most of their instruments. The typical rock or pop concert sounds like utter shit due to the sound 'engineer' mixing and basing his Eq curve on the Skullcandy or Beats headphones he's using and how he perceives how much bass and treble needs to reach the back row to get people moving so the sweat and buy more fizz and beer at the vendors. If you have been to over 200 concerts since 1976, you must have noticed all the crap they do between bands and acts to setup the soundstage other than just moving instruments and decor around. 130-140dB of compressed wall of noise and booming bass is far from fidelity I'd say. That is not to say studio recordings don't get butchered. The point is the worst mastered Metallica or Oasis album is still often more accurate by a wide margin than their respective concerts. This has nothing to do with which one finds to be more 'engaging' as their are a million factors potentially responsible. Many of the same ones are responsible for the loudness wars which have ruined most of recent modern recorded popular music.
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I absolutely understand that perspective Kunlun. However, most recordings do not have the mic placed in the back row behind the lady with the big hair. More often than not, the mics are placed much closer to the performer where very little diffusion occurs. This is why I must confess my actual preference is for sound that most closely mimics that from the perspective of the performer (caveat being that the staging does not have me behind, under or over the performers and band). From here, all instruments are visceral, they each have a clearly defined and unique timbre, crashes are shrill and sibilant, cymbals are sweet are round, vocals are forward and seductive/engaging, dynamics swing all the way up and down the frequency range, resolution and plankton is second to none and not lost in hair or walls. If you close your eyes, the sound can paint a picture of the instruments in your mind. This is certainly a preference of mine, but I feel it is often more accurate and consistent to how most good performances are mic'd, performed and recorded versus having your favorite seat up in the Loge or Mezzanine. If one prefers to color with diffusion then you should be willing to accept reverb, echo and other noise cancellation too. I'd only want those things if it was actually in the recording and not added by the transducer. When I started long ago in this hobby, I confess I actually did prefer those things as being more 'natural' sounding even when they weren't native to the recording. The problem is that will always get in the way when critically analyzing music or gear if it is your sole reference point.
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In my experience no one earphone will make me truely happy each earphone does things differently even within the same brand such as the Shure 530 to the 846 or the Ultimate ears 5EB to their wonderful TripleFi 10.
In my experience you can cover much more ground and be more satisfied with 1-2 high end customs or universal and 1-2 mid to higher performing low tier IEMs. 2-4 solid phones will get you much more than 10-15 mediocre to crap phones. In general, I find most IEMs/headphones between $300-$800 a waste of time and money as that range can often be covered by phones as good or better by examples beyond that range at either extreme.
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In the real world it cannot go perfect but it is live and happening right in front of you. Mistakes can happen when they perform live and they can add and change the songs. I have been to some very very well done concerts. It is not easy when the concert has 400,000 people in Rock In Rio or at Glastonbury Festival.
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Anaxilus, I agree one or two HIGH end earphones is the way to go. I like having 4 (2 customs and 2 universals) because in my case I am on the go walking outside 3 hours a day traveling to various schools. I bet 10 years ago audiophiles were raving about their $500 earphones.
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In the real world it cannot go perfect but it is live and happening right in front of you.
Oh I agree, that's the experience of it. I don't begrudge anyone looking for some coloration to capture some of that feeling in a bottle, I've done and do so myself. However, I know it is coloration and accept that. I just want to be honest for people that know where my point of reference is in a way they can rely upon somewhat consistently. Hell, in a way I can rely upon consistently even. It's too easy to fool yourself in evaluating gear without maintaining some sort of listening discipline. Otherwise I'd end up like some spineless shill recommending everything for almost everyone who might like something for one reason or another.
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Since you mention Glastonbury, to give an example of what I mean by live versus recorded, this is an example of where I know the recorded live performance is more accurate than being at the actual concert itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BTLFAswwgo
Being there would be more exciting overall, but my ears would rather stay at home and watch the video through my rig. In fact, I've reduced my concert going over the years as the increasingly terrible sound engineers and increasingly cheap productions have made it unbearable to find any value in going. I often have to bring my IEMs and portable rig just to get through many concerts these days in their entirety. This is mainly for metal, pop, rock and hip hop performances.
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In Mike's world it's either the best ever or it's pure shit. Get used to it.
:boom:
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Well with old age and not moving enough people tend to stay put. I can say ELP, Toto and Steely Dan did sound excellent live. Also ULTRA Fest in Miami where the major DJs will play have excellent sound system.
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Well I have been living in Hong Kong for the past seven years and they have a multitude of stereo shops with all the custom and universal earphones to demo. I can sit for hours and try each one. Next time I will go and try some Ultimate Ears and see how they sound I have only heard and purchased the 5 EB and the Tri Fi 10 which were nice some six years ago. Wonder how this will sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGKMKjJthVU
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Wow I would love to check those out and hear what they sound like!!
I can probably make that happen for you. I own both the Radius DDM and the Monster Miles Davis Tribute and rarely use them. I am not interested in selling them, but I would be willing to lend them for a while. PM me if you are interested.
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to my ear se846 is the one of the best matches with olive & welti flat targets in iem category.
I'm the one who was anti shure iem sound but 846 is bit different.
I personally like more treble extension, but still I really like it somehow.
it's not the iem that you will like as soon as you hear. you will find it's goods as you spent more time with it.
it is not analytical sounding iem like uerm, er4s hd800, but it is not to laid back sounding iem likes westone.
While it still captures all the details that need to be there, it makes all sound very smooth and pleasant.
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Oh, and in terms of live bass in a classical setting:
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2e3q0s3.jpg)
I love this!
(from Mahler's 6th)
Hahahahah, that is the best animated gif ever. Everyone does the hammer differently as it's not like you can just go buy one at your local Sam Goody, that one looks like it must have been pretty damn loud.
Do you know what performance that's from is it on youtube?
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Doh!!! it's not Mahler it's from Maazel's Ring without Words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ineYcKcfmJQ
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Good detective work! :)p7
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Good detective work! :)p7
Not really i have to thank reddit and google for that. Plus it's a better gif as the Mahler 6 hammers anyways, shit I shouldn't have said anything!! That bassoonist's expressions are really the best part.