CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: Priidik on May 17, 2014, 11:52:03 AM
-
Hi,
Didn't see a BH Mainline thread here, so i started one.
Has anyone heard BH Mainline and compared it with some top of the line EC or DNA or Cavalli?
I'm looking to find a great amp for HD800, and budget is tight on <1500$. DAC is Yulong DA8.
I assume the BH offering is not as good as say Balancing Act, but i would like to know where it stands among those giants. Also i'm very newb to vacuum tube business. Initially was looking SS options, but then 8 out of 10 HD800 owners seem to not care about SS amps. I've heard HD800s through HDVD800, and it did sound good to me.
Amp options currently available to me: BH Mainline, Questyle CMA800R, Sennheiser HDVA600, (used)Taurus Mk2, (used) DNA Sonett. Out of those which one would You get for HD800?
Any alternative amp recommendations are obviously welcome.
-
No one here has heard the Mainline yet. Would like to see more specific power specs listed on it (600mW into what load?). The only caveat I would have for the mainline is the dual (coarse / fine stepper) volume adjustment. I already hate steppers, and having two steppers would make me want to smash something.
Other recommendations under $1500 for HD800 (known to be good match with HD800 by folks here):
- BH Crack, esp. with Speedball
- Schiit Vali
- I can second the Senn HDVA600 in balanced mode (but cannot vouch for it with the Yulong DAC)
- EC Zana Deux (I think the older non SE ones with ths soy caps were better sounding) if you can find one for cheap. I got mine for $1200 here.
- Bryston BHA-1 (used is better deal)
- EC S7 (used - with the Electraprint OPTs)
-
And M-Stage
-
A surprisingly competent comparison from Head-Fi:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/683012/bottlehead-amplifier-discussion-comparison-thread-crack-sex-mainline
-
I felt the headphone out on the DA8 was actually a pretty good match with the HD800.
-
I tried the Mainline with the HD800 (Anax modded) at the Bottlehead meet in Seattle a few weeks ago. I don't know if it was the anax mod, the mainline, or a combination of both, but it sounded a bit too dull and rolled off in the treble to me. Also much warmer than I remember the stock HD800 driven from an O2 when I auditioned a while ago.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/6/61/6178690a_DSC_0068.jpeg)
Take my opinion with a grain of salt though, I don't know what tubes Doc B was using in his personal unit, and I'm not incredibly familiar with how the HD800 "should" sound, all I can say is that I didn't really like this particular setup. :)p8
-
Thanks all!
-
I just read a comparative review of Audio-GD Master 9 and GS-X2.
Master 7 dac has been praised here,
what is the word around here about Master 9?
-
I've got a Mainline here in mid-build. I'm waiting for some chassis work to be completed by others, but when that's back I should have it up and running. Will do some comparisons with the few dynamics I've got around... HD-800/LCD-3/Slant/Paradox.
-
Awesome!
-
I just read a comparative review of Audio-GD Master 9 and GS-X2.
Master 7 dac has been praised here,
what is the word around here about Master 9?
Personally I wouldn't touch GSX2 with HD800, even with an expensive smooth sounding MSB R2R ladder DAC. Too strident, etched, and lacks balls with HD800.
-
Thanks! I'll keep that in mind, also right on the issue i have with my HD800-s: ''Yes, i think my HD800s do lack balls!''
I haven't heard HD800 through upper-shelf gear most here have,
but with my Yulong DAC/amp i'm missing out mostly on dynamics/effortlessness (freq resp is not so troublesome for me),
they sound boring, despite some great macro-detail retrieval, low noise floor..etc.
From what i have read from Changstar forums recently i get the feeling that i'm missing some microdynamics and microdetail as well.
I thought HDVD800 (HDVA600) did good in the effortlessness/dynamics part. Although looks like its overpriced.
-
From some thread Doc B said: The Mainline puts out 600mW from the 32 ohm (low) tap into 32 ohms. It puts out 600mW into 64 ohms from the high tap.
-
FWIW GS-X + HD800 is the best headphone setup I've heard yet, and I've heard a few.
-
FWIW GS-X + HD800 is the best headphone setup I've heard yet, and I've heard a few.
We are going to strongly agree to disagree about that I'm afraid.
-
FWIW GS-X + HD800 is the best headphone setup I've heard yet, and I've heard a few.
We are going to strongly agree to disagree about that I'm afraid.
Same here, never was a fan of the pairing. The Audeze's on the other hand were good though.
-
Agreed with GS-X2 sounding etched or airy. Unmodded hd800s especially. Wasn't my cup o rum.
Qualifiers: Meet conditions... source was also an ipad to a Pico slim if I recall correctly. This was Justin's booth at a headmeet.
-
FWIW GS-X + HD800 is the best headphone setup I've heard yet, and I've heard a few.
We are going to strongly agree to disagree about that I'm afraid.
Wouldn't be the first time. I'm just glad a place like this exists where respectful disagreements can occur without fireworks.
-
FWIW GS-X + HD800 is the best headphone setup I've heard yet, and I've heard a few.
Yup, everyone has different priorities and are in different places with their listening references. I will say this in Max's defense. His HD800s are the smoothest stock HD800s I've ever heard stock so that certainly helps the pairing. That said, don't ask him what his serial number is, he lucked out in unit variation. Measurements are on the site comparing his to mine and others.
We are going to strongly agree to disagree about that I'm afraid.
Wouldn't be the first time. I'm just glad a place like this exists where respectful disagreements can occur without fireworks.
-
Maxvla, was it GSX or GSX2 you heard? Word has it that GSX2 could be more etched / airy compared to GSX, although I have compared both directly in the same session.
-
2. Heard it at the Austin 2013 meet with the X-Sabre and my HD800s.
I also have a production Black Diamond on the way and will have a Rag when the world is ready for it.
-
Maybe it's a dumb questien. I always assume that etch wasn't the same as airy. Wouldn't etch was sort of very dry sound (even grating maybe) on the treble? I never heard gs-x (I wish I had). I heard auralic taurus mk2 and I felt it had that dry (etch) on the it's presentation. I have original stratus and I felt it have air, but it also have a weight on each note (with hd800).
thanks,
Jo
-
Maybe it's a dumb questien. I always assume that etch wasn't the same as airy. Wouldn't etch was sort of very dry sound (even grating maybe) on the treble? I never heard gs-x (I wish I had). I heard auralic taurus mk2 and I felt it had that dry (etch) on the it's presentation. I have original stratus and I felt it have air, but it also have a weight on each note (with hd800).
thanks,
Jo
I think your right on there on all counts including the Taurus.
-
I just repaired a pair of Hifiman RE 262 after a year in closet drawer. Can tubes bring some of this lushness/liquidity to HD800?
These vocals.., maybe my pair is 'defective' in the right direction.
-
in my experience, to an extent yes. some toob ampz are very delicious in the mids. but it won't be quite like RE-262 (if memory serves me right)
though the tubey tube amps I've heard HD800 on, I much prefer to RE-262 :p
-
I just repaired a pair of Hifiman RE 262 after a year in closet drawer. Can tubes bring some of this lushness/liquidity to HD800?
These vocals.., maybe my pair is 'defective' in the right direction.
A crappy SS amp can make the 800 sound like a 262, no need to waste your time with tubes. At that point just use the 262 and sell the 800 imo. Try an Eximus DAC/amp w/ the 800 to richen it up, has interesting SS synergy too kind of reminds me of my Miles Davis iems signature. Mid forward, warm, smooth with intimate SS but still some separation. It also has pretty leaves engraved on the case which should replace the tube glow placebo affect hyper objectivists point to. I think it's an interesting pairing just not technically up to snuff for the price point. Fyi, Marv hates the thing to get another perspective.
If you do feel like going down the tube rabbit hole, there are NOS tubes that can make mids sound silky and seductive while still being clear unlike the 262 which has a bit of a veil. If you think the 262 has good mids/vocals, stay away from the ES5...
-
not the safest option but a good pair of LCD-3 with a good amp/dac combo has amazing mids, IMO. a bit expensive perhaps, even compared to HD800... but if you like your mids thicker and smoother, might be a better option. sucks that they're a bit heavy and all that though.
some other input would be appreciated, perhaps. I don't have the experience of some people here
-
I have said this to a few people , the Liquid Glass has phenomenal synergy with the HD800 ( even unmodded) but even better when the headphones are modded. You get to experience the subtle tube induced nuances ( microdynamics / air .... ) without any of the mush and it has plenty of control to let he bass notes hit hard and deep.
..dB
-
Don't know why but the mids on the LCD2 and LCD3 always sound a bit dry to me even compared to the HD800. Some folks keep saying they have the best bass and mids but I have never agreed with that.
-
It seems i spilled some oil to the fire. I think i didn't say i like RE-262 better?! Has anyone sold his/her HD800 for RE-262?
To clarify that i'm not partially deaf, i like vocals better on 262s 10% of time, after some serious eq-ing. And every other aspect of their sound is not comparable, to me too.
Anyways i was hoping to get a perspective of what kind of mids to expect from a tube amp as i haven't heard any. And first chance comes when i buy one, because i live in the middle of nowhere.
Amp that i use (DA8 inner) should be similar sounding to Matrix M-Stage. I've tried the Lehmann BCL as well and i didn't like it with HD800.
It's kind of a hollow and dry sound to me, despite being the best i've heard from headphones.
-
Don't know why but the mids on the LCD2 and LCD3 always sound a bit dry to me even compared to the HD800. Some folks keep saying they have the best bass and mids but I have never agreed with that.
Liquid Glass is out of my reach right now, unless i find it used on sale.
-
BH Mainline is similar design to the ECP-L2, right? People have praised the ECP-L2 with HD800 a lot, so my hopes lie with the Mainline right now.
Anax and Marv what do you think of the L2?
-
BH Mainline is similar design to the ECP-L2, right? People have praised the ECP-L2 with HD800 a lot, so my hopes lie with the Mainline right now.
Anax and Marv what do you think of the L2?
No idea on the Mainline since BH does not provide schematics or even any hint of topology. What is known is that both are single stage tube.
I've heard good things about the L2 by people who I trust. I missed out on it hearing once and would love a chance to do so.
As for the BH Mainline, I'm not too keen on the 6C45pi tube, especially with HD800. It could work well, so I can't say for sure, just that the 6C45pi is not a good indicator. Not many choices with that tube, the Sovteks sound like sh1t.
-
Thanks!
The part where some prefer T1s to HD800s with Mainline worries me.
And that tube rolling does not affect sound much.
Maybe it is a good thing in this case?
-
The problem with tube rolling 6C45P is what options? New production Sovteks or old-stock which may have different markings but are all from the Reflecktor factory? The old stock is getting rare. The new stuff sucks. That's two choices.
-
One of these times when I'm out to Anaheim for a business trip I'll pack up/bring out my Mainline and we can have a mini-meet. Mainline IS a 'Parafeed' topography like the L2, Torpedo, etc. I've never head it with the HD800's, but use it every day with T90's.
(http://www.prettygoodsoftware.net/DIY/Mainline%201.JPG)
-
Mainline has the same 6C45P output tubes and similar? topology to L2. Very tempting.
-
No idea on the Mainline since BH does not provide schematics or even any hint of topology. What is known is that both are single stage tube.
I've heard good things about the L2 by people who I trust. I missed out on it hearing once and would love a chance to do so.
As for the BH Mainline, I'm not too keen on the 6C45pi tube, especially with HD800. It could work well, so I can't say for sure, just that the 6C45pi is not a good indicator. Not many choices with that tube, the Sovteks sound like sh1t.
I would assume a reasonably similar topology. There are a few circuit tricks in the L-2 that probably make it a little different. Parts quality is also higher, but you can always upgrade the BH.
If the 6C45pi sounds hard or etchy or bad in any way, it is because it is oscillating. It is extremely difficult to keep it under control. But, if you do, it is a really wonderful tube.
In the L-2, in order to keep it happy, there are grid stoppers, plate stoppers, and cathode stoppers, and all are surface mount (i.e. without inductive resistor leads) right on the socket pins. Additionally, it has Teflon tube sockets and an extremely low impedance biasing mechanism.
-
Wanna send us a L2 for review? I'd love to confirm the performance of the 6c45pi.
-
Oh man, I love the woodworking on that Mainline... almost looks like marble.
-
Yea, loved the way it turned out too.
-
Wanna send us a L2 for review? I'd love to confirm the performance of the 6c45pi.
not so much that 6c45pi is suckage, the Reflecktors are good, but just that the 5842 is so much better sounding, but it doesn't have the gain of the 6c45pi. not a matter of etch or treble nasties really, but the 5842's timbre is so much more spot on - really one of the best tubes - as least as a driver that I've heard so far. guess in the case of the Mainline, being a single stage, the gain of the 6c45pi is probably required- only 12db with that single tube, which is what, a little less than x4 gain? 5842 would not work in Mainline unless DAC output was sky high.
-
Yeah, different tubes, particularly newer production tubes it seems just have issues with proper timbre whether oscillating or not.
-
When I was working on the L-2, I built versions using the 6C45, 5842, 6688, 7788, D3a, C3g, E280F, 12HG7/12GN7, 6J9, and one or two others I can't remember ... 7KY6 maybe? Anyhow, I liked the 6C45 the best. To be fair, I used all NOS tubes there, but I have used the Sovteks and can't say I found them to be any different.
None of the others were bad by any means (except that 7KY6), but side by side in the same circuit, the 6C45 had the best performance to my ear. Even accepting the lower gain and output power, I did not find the 5842 to be as good. Perhaps it is a different story into a higher load.
Pete Millett has an interesting writeup on a bunch of these tubes: http://www.pmillett.com/pentodes.htm
Wanna send us a L2 for review? I'd love to confirm the performance of the 6c45pi.
Unfortunately, I don't have one to send you :(
-
The Sovtek is quite noticeably harsher and more digital sounding than the Reflektor 6C45pi. Which 5842 did you use, Raytheon?
-
One of these times when I'm out to Anaheim for a business trip I'll pack up/bring out my Mainline and we can have a mini-meet.
Anytime soon?
-
Pretty sure I'll be out that way in August. As dates firm up, I'll reach out to Marvey and we'll try to organize a mini meet. I need to pick up a serious case for moving this thing.
-
August would be a good time.
-
LA Head-Fi meet is August 9
-
Cool - I'll start planning on that.
-
Did you make it there, Mr Rogers?
-
No, unfortunately not. These days it's near impossible for me to project out more than a couple of weeks where I'll be. Really wish I could have made it. My Mainline is actually up for sale; love it, don't want to sell it, but I have a Ragnarok inbound and so it has to move.
-
Hopefully you can provide a comparison between the two once the Ragnarok beds in. I really don't want to move away from tubes even though I hear the Ragnarok is as smooth as can be. I'm currently considering the Glenn OTL and the Mainline, but it seems impossible to disregard the Ragnarok based on the few reviews/impressions.
-
As a current Mainline owner I would love to hear the comparison too.
-
Hopefully you can provide a comparison between the two once the Ragnarok beds in. I really don't want to move away from tubes even though I hear the Ragnarok is as smooth as can be. I'm currently considering the Glenn OTL and the Mainline, but it seems impossible to disregard the Ragnarok based on the few reviews/impressions.
Can you tell me how to contact Glen? I sent him two PMs on HF two months ago and have gotten no response. Is there an email address you an share? Thanks in advance.
-
Hopefully you can provide a comparison between the two once the Ragnarok beds in. I really don't want to move away from tubes even though I hear the Ragnarok is as smooth as can be. I'm currently considering the Glenn OTL and the Mainline, but it seems impossible to disregard the Ragnarok based on the few reviews/impressions.
Can you tell me how to contact Glen? I sent him two PMs on HF two months ago and have gotten no response. Is there an email address you an share? Thanks in advance.
I have no idea. I am not yet at the ordering stage, Just doing my due diligence regarding research.