CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: takato14 on July 27, 2015, 07:23:55 AM

Title: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers *Updated*
Post by: takato14 on July 27, 2015, 07:23:55 AM
I regret nothing.

... yet.

In all seriousness, this is going to be a worklog. I bought this HD700 used for quite cheap with the intent of modifying it to remove the awful treble peakage and ringing. I have no idea how well this is going to work out. I talked briefly with bill in the shoutbox about damping materials and have a few different ideas/plans.

More to come. Perhaps tomorrow when I'm not tired and its not 3 AM.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Marvey on July 27, 2015, 07:27:05 AM
You can light it on fire and burn it. Maybe we could all pitch in with some money.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: OJneg on July 27, 2015, 07:30:39 AM
Can we ban him now?
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Priidik on July 27, 2015, 07:42:59 AM
I wonder if these use HD700 drivers, same resistance, as far as i've searched only HD700 has 150 ohms:

Gaming Headset PC-350 (http://en-de.sennheiser.com/gaming-headset-pc-350-special-edition#product_data)
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: insidious meme on July 27, 2015, 08:53:58 AM
Quote from: OJneg on July 27, 2015, 07:30:39 AM
Can we ban him now?

Nah, better to see him squirm when he's going through figuring out that he can't do jack with the drivers. Or finding out the only solution was dog shit.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: x838nwy on July 27, 2015, 09:00:46 AM
Quote from: OJneg on July 27, 2015, 07:30:39 AM
Can we ban him now?

May I suggest a silent ban? Can e-mail Jude for a how-to.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Deep Funk on July 27, 2015, 09:03:40 AM
For science Takato can do an iFixit to conclude with a "will it blend" to conclude: the HD700 made for audio, not salad.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Anaxilus on July 27, 2015, 12:10:20 PM
Tak, if you get tired of it let me know before you sell it. Might want to try a few things.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Kunlun on July 27, 2015, 02:15:22 PM
Could try the Tari mod
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Azteca X on July 27, 2015, 02:32:39 PM
Son, I am dissapoint.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: madaboutaudio on July 27, 2015, 02:42:36 PM
From a design esthetics pov, the HD700 is timeless.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3l9bP0CUAAxfZ3.jpg)
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Hifi01170 on July 27, 2015, 02:45:44 PM
Anax is interested as well??
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: maverickronin on July 27, 2015, 03:10:20 PM
At least it's comfy.

You could probably put some KSC-75 drivers in it if you wanted it to be listenable too.

I do understand your morbid fascination with this kind of stuff though.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Hands on July 27, 2015, 03:37:11 PM
I still think the EL-8 closed is worse/more painful. Have fun, Tak!
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: burnspbesq on July 27, 2015, 03:48:48 PM
As a former Grado RS-2 owner, I'm in no position to mock Tak for taking a wrong turn in his headphone journey.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: aufmerksam on July 27, 2015, 04:59:38 PM
Quote from: burnspbesq on July 27, 2015, 03:48:48 PM
As a former Grado RS-2 owner, I'm in no position to mock Tak for taking a wrong turn in his headphone journey.

I dunno, I think everyone has been lured down the path of grado at some point, but he HD700 has been pilloried by pyrates for several years now. I actually appreciate Tak is willing to waste his time and money on this piece of shit.
 :boom:
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: spoony on July 27, 2015, 05:04:52 PM
Quote from: takato14 on July 27, 2015, 07:23:55 AM
for quite cheap
$400 isn't cheap for such a POS. GL anyway.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Azteca X on July 27, 2015, 07:20:31 PM
Quote from: aufmerksam on July 27, 2015, 04:59:38 PM
I dunno, I think everyone has been lured down the path of grado at some point, but he HD700 has been pilloried by pyrates for several years now. I actually appreciate Tak is willing to waste his time and money on this piece of shit.
 :boom:

I mean, what's next after a few dozen mostly-garbage vintage headphones? Buy a sensible, universally adored headphone? Nonsense.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on July 27, 2015, 08:55:38 PM
I'm not sure what I expected to see when I got up. :)p13

I hope we can all have fun with this. Even worst case scenario I still learn something.


After a bit of talking with Bill, the general conclusion was that the HD700 would be a difficult headphone to fix. I agree with this wholeheartedly. That being said, there still has to be something that can be done. In these few days before I receive it, I'm doing some research on the headphone, damping materials, and determining a primary target.

The first thing I looked into was the construction of the earcup. It took a while to find but I'm already seeing a lot of red flags. I suspect the main problem here is the nature of the HD700's baffle plate. The entire mount for the HD700 driver is made of plastic. It looks pretty fucking cheap, and there's nothing between the driver and baffle. Just hard plastic on hard plastic. Bad. My prediction is that something will end up in here by the time this mod is done.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/b5dIMS6.jpg)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/awIKvnw.jpg)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/zen13.jpg)

Soundwise, there's obviously a major problem at about 6kHz. This appears to be what people have the most trouble with when it comes to this headphone. The resounding peaks aren't particularly comforting to look at either, but the 6kHz appears to be the most prominent.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD700.pdf

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/HD700_IF.png)

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=316.0;attach=1240;image)

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=316.0;attach=1246;image)

Using EQ and the SS-100, which is perceptibly the flattest headphone I own, I've tried to prepare myself for what I'm about to receive and approximated the FR of the HD700. I compensated for the SS-100's perceived FR, which rolls off progressively from 3kHz to about -6dB at 16kHz. This gave me a headache, quite quickly:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/HD700_stock.png)

After getting "used" to that, I played around with the sliders a lot and determined a realistic target FR, something that sounds better while still being within the realm of possibility. Here's the target I came up with (again compensating for the SS-100's FR above 3kHz):

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/HD700_target.png)

My suspicion is that the 6kHz peak is being accentuated by the ringing on marv's CSDs. Hopefully, this ringing is coming from the enclosure, and not the driver (which is notoriously much harder to fix). However, given the very clean distortion characteristics of the HD700 (above 200Hz), I don't suspect the driver to be the culprit here.

Now onto damping material selection...
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Anaxilus on July 27, 2015, 09:03:58 PM
Quote from: Hifi01170 on July 27, 2015, 02:45:44 PM
Anax is interested as well??


Don't mind me. I once thought of getting a salvaged Honda Insight and sticking a Hayabusa V8 in it.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: maverickronin on July 27, 2015, 09:18:44 PM
Quote from: takato14 on July 27, 2015, 08:55:38 PM
I hope we can all have fun with this. Even worst case scenario I still learn something.

Best case scenario you come up with an HD750, which would be pretty sweet.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on July 27, 2015, 09:20:33 PM
Quote from: maverickronin on July 27, 2015, 09:18:44 PM
Best case scenario you come up with an HD750, which would be pretty sweet.
My thinking exactly. With the HD700 prices the way they are, an "HD750" mod would be a fantastic, less laid-back alternative to the HD650 for about the same price.

If, and a very BIG if, it works.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Hands on July 27, 2015, 09:32:30 PM
My idea of fun is just buying an HD650 and calling it a day. Given the measured performance of a stock HD700, I doubt you'll be able to make it match let alone make it better objectively than either HD6X0.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on July 27, 2015, 10:49:30 PM
Quote from: hans030390 on July 27, 2015, 09:32:30 PM
Given the measured performance of a stock HD700, I doubt you'll be able to make it match let alone make it better objectively than either HD6X0.
The potential is there. But we shall see.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: madaboutaudio on July 27, 2015, 11:38:26 PM
here's something interesting: 3 way audio demo(same setup) of HD700/650/600:

HD700
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9K45XL7z8o

HD650:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0g9sttK_HE

HD600:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vm42CjYhOg
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Anaxilus on July 27, 2015, 11:44:16 PM
At the original price, I had no interest in these. Just get an HD800 and mod it was the obvious solution. But at close to $350, this becomes a rather compelling argument and I'm supporting tak on his decision. It will be considerably more work than dealing with the HD800, but if you can get it done it'll be a great buy at that price. I do think the driver has more potential than the 6xx.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Deep Funk on July 28, 2015, 12:39:58 AM
What I find strange is that after decades of experimentation with construction, driver technology and padding Sennheiser used hard plastics.

Even a budget AKG K240 Studio is not merely hard plastics around the driver. What was Sennheiser thinking?
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: EP on July 28, 2015, 02:43:36 AM
Best gaming headphones I know of. Did a little, "anax" foam mod to mine when I got em a couple years ago and all is well. For gaming.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Kamaka on July 28, 2015, 03:58:55 AM
Quote from: EP on July 28, 2015, 02:43:36 AM
Best gaming headphones I know of. Did a little, "anax" foam mod to mine when I got em a couple years ago and all is well. For gaming.

I could see them being effective for long sessions with their comfort as well as fps gaming. I feel like they'd be a bit lack luster for immersion based games.

Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Priidik on July 28, 2015, 08:50:20 AM
Quote from: Anaxilus on July 27, 2015, 09:03:58 PM
Don't mind me. I once thought of getting a salvaged Honda Insight and sticking a Hayabusa V8 in it.

Do you mean you'd stick two HD800 drivers per side into HD700 rack?  popcorn
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on July 28, 2015, 05:28:09 PM
Got them super quick cuz the pair I ordered came from like 20 miles away.

Bass immediately sounds offensive. Rolls off too early. Way too flabby and thick. Not impressed. Wait, why do these sound dark? Turn them up a little. Holy shit, no amount of EQ could have prepared me for that treble. These sound super metallic. Gross, wow. Everything sounds wrong. Midrange is recessed. Upper midrange is almost absent. Treble is violent and sporadic. No wonder everyone hates this thing.

The resolution sounds at least on par with the SS-100 (except in the bass), which to my recollection is slightly superior to the HD600. Conversely, the clarity is much worse due to the severely recessed upper midrange. Soundstage is above average. Comfort is absolutely amazing.

Starting right away. On the frontwave side of things, Bill suggested filter paper from medical/surgical face masks. I have some of those on order. I have some closed and open-cell foams on hand to try in the mean time.

No time to do the mods before work. More to come in about 8 hours.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: maverickronin on July 28, 2015, 05:42:32 PM
Did Bill mention a specific brand of masks, or did you just grab whatever was cheapest on Amazon?
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on July 28, 2015, 05:48:12 PM
Quote from: maverickronin on July 28, 2015, 05:42:32 PM
Did Bill mention a specific brand of masks, or did you just grab whatever was cheapest on Amazon?
Bill did not mention a brand. I just grabbed the 3M branded stuff off amazon. Basically the cheapest with shipping that doesn't come from fucking China so it'll get here before I'm 50.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: No_One411 on July 28, 2015, 05:56:44 PM
Quote from: takato14 on July 28, 2015, 05:48:12 PM
Bill did not mention a brand. I just grabbed the 3M branded stuff off amazon. Basically the cheapest with shipping that doesn't come from fucking China so it'll get here before I'm 50.

Uh...I think there was a shipping deal China made a couple of years ago so stuff actually ships quite quickly and cheaply now.

Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on July 28, 2015, 06:08:43 PM
Question... is it safe to machine wash these ear/headband pads in a pillowcase or something? I recall someone doing that with an HD6x0... I think...? These are kind of tacky and gross. Lol.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: firev1 on July 28, 2015, 06:13:35 PM
If these are the same as HD800 pads they deteriorate pretty quickly, I would just handwash them.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: spoony on July 28, 2015, 06:16:36 PM
Quote from: takato14 on July 28, 2015, 05:28:09 PM
Bass immediately sounds offensive. Rolls off too early. Way too flabby and thick. Wait, why do these sound dark? Aren't these supposed to be bright? Turn them up a little. Holy shit, no amount of EQ could have prepared me for that treble. These sound super metallic. Gross, wow. Everything sounds wrong. Midrange is recessed. Upper midrange is almost absent. Treble is violent and sporadic. No wonder everyone hates this thing.

That's pretty much it (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD700.pdf). I don't think you can flatten the bass unless you resort to back-damping like stratocaster did with the HD600.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on July 29, 2015, 04:06:55 AM
Quote from: spoony on July 28, 2015, 06:16:36 PM
That's pretty much it (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD700.pdf). I don't think you can flatten the bass unless you resort to back-damping like stratocaster did with the HD600.

That was my intention, actually. There's literally nothing behind the driver cup wise, just like the HD800, so it'll be direct damping to the capsule, probably clamped in place by the graphite piece that goes over the back of the cup.

I'm not gonna work on the bass until I get the upper ranges fixed, however. Gotta have priorities.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: audiofrk on July 30, 2015, 12:38:31 AM
this is going to be interesting.  popcorn
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: RexAeterna on July 30, 2015, 01:45:47 AM
If cheap, like, 5 bucks....then maybe worth the mess around. I heard these at a best buy and even on my phone I was able tell how horrible they were. Hated them. The 558 while full retail at best buy at 300 bucks was still hell lot better deal than the hd700. I was able tell right off the bat how bad they were compared to the hd650 and hd558. I personally would never buy a hd700..but, I do wish you best of luck with modding.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on August 07, 2015, 03:08:33 AM
Ok, jeez. Finally have all the materials required to do this.

Taking pictures as I go. More progress to come.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Tyll Hertsens on August 07, 2015, 03:56:22 PM
I'd be happy to measure these for you when you're ready.   headbang
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on August 07, 2015, 11:48:21 PM
Quote from: Tyll Hertsens on August 07, 2015, 03:56:22 PM
I'd be happy to measure these for you when you're ready.   headbang
You read my mind.

These will be going to you hopefully along with a few others (SS-100, Monitor 10-II) that I've been working on for a while.I was waiting for Big Sound 2015 to at least calm down a little before sending anything else your way. ;)
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: Tyll Hertsens on August 08, 2015, 03:36:59 PM
Quote from: takato14 on August 07, 2015, 11:48:21 PM
I was waiting for Big Sound 2015 to at least calm down a little before sending anything else your way.

Yeah, that would be a good idea. After RMAF would be best.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers
Post by: takato14 on August 23, 2015, 06:49:03 AM
Tak's stupid HD700 mods: part 1

--Disassembly--

Before I get into the mods I've done so far and the resulting sound, I'm going to go over how to disassemble this headphone. It's relatively simple, but I don't see any tutorials on the internet, so this should prove useful. For the sake of progress, I'll only post how to take apart the earcups for now. If I figure out the headband after I'm done making it not sound like shit, I'll add a guide for that as well.

--Stupid disclaimer bullshit--
(click to show/hide)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/1.jpg)

For the cups, the only tools you need are a used gift card, and an unused zip tie. There are three pieces to it in total, not counting the driver, all of which are held together with small clips.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/12.jpg)

Release the first clip on the front of the cup, right below the aluminum yoke, with either the card or your fingernail.  This requires almost no force, so be gentle. This outer piece is thin and probably very fragile. I'm going to assume that if you're trying to mod this headphone, you've already given the instruction manual a good once-over, and are familiar with how to take the pads off. So, go ahead and do that too.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/2.jpg)

After that, take the gift card and slide it under the edge you just dislodged. Again, be gentle. Slide it up and through either corner of the earcup, then through the "arm" that connects to the driver. The clips you are trying to release are in the center, four of them surrounding the driver. Once you have it thoroughly jammed under the piece, pry it up slowly. It should come right off, though it can be somewhat stiff/difficult on the first attempt.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/4.jpg)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/5.jpg)

This inner piece clamps the driver and cable detachments into the cup. First, you have to release the clips at the base of the cable inlet. Just release the clips, do NOT attempt to force it up yet.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/6.jpg)

After that, keep the zip tie at hand and look closely at the driver. There are four small gaps between the driver and the clamp piece. Pick one and...

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/7.jpg)

...slide the zip tie through like so. You may have to inch it in and grab the end with tweezers or needle-nose pliers to get it all the way through. Afterwards, fold it in half and grasp both the cup and the ziptie firmly. Pull. This will release all four inner clips at once. As such, it requires a lot of force, but don't worry, you won't break it.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/8.jpg)

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/9.jpg)

If you want to take the driver out, first release the clips on this PCB, right here.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/10.jpg)

The driver is further held in by four clips on the outside of it. These can be released one at a time with just your fingers. Sennheiser doesn't have spare drivers on their headphone spares site, so be careful.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/34404748/noDel/HD700/11.jpg)

Alright, that covers the disassembly. Next post: enclosure and damping mods... running out of space on my dropbox, that's why this damn post took so long. Sorry.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers *Updated*
Post by: HitmanFluffy on August 23, 2015, 04:09:49 PM
I can't even imagine what fresh insanity this endeavor yielded  :)p13
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers *Updated*
Post by: Zombie_X on August 31, 2015, 12:59:20 AM
Tak, any updates on this? I am wondering if this headphone improves a lot from modding.

Oh and some Chinese company makes memory foam pads for the HD700. I saw them a few days back while browsing online. They looked to be thicker, like the K7XX pads. Might be worth a try to beef up the bass and smooth the highs.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers *Updated*
Post by: takato14 on August 31, 2015, 03:05:32 AM
Quote from: Zombie_X on August 31, 2015, 12:59:20 AM
Tak, any updates on this? I am wondering if this headphone improves a lot from modding.

Oh and some Chinese company makes memory foam pads for the HD700. I saw them a few days back while browsing online. They looked to be thicker, like the K7XX pads. Might be worth a try to beef up the bass and smooth the highs.
The post is long. I'm still working on it. Lol.
Title: Re: Tak bought an HD700, prepare the tar and feathers *Updated*
Post by: Zombie_X on September 01, 2015, 02:39:34 AM
Sounds good Tak. Looking forward to it ;)