CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => IEM Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on April 07, 2013, 12:06:50 AM
-
Spiral Ears 5 IEM Measurements
Important Note: No data after 9kHz - this is intentional. The drop-off at 9k is misleading. I'll fix the graphs one of these days. The odd behavior in the lower treble can probably be attributed to the fact that these are silicone customs. I think some of the 5 tubes could have been squashed. I tried moving things around, but couldn't get any better result.
Subjective Pre-Measurement Impressions:
They sound very much like LCD2r1s with the following differences:
- Stage is still intimate, but less closed or even claustrophobic like the LCD2r1s.
- SE5 have more middle midrange emphasis than LCD2r1.
- LCD2r1 has more low bass volume.
- SE5 has more mid bass volume.
- SE5 has better mid to high bass texture and resolution.
- SE5 is more resolving than the LCD2r1
- SE5 has a smoother treble than LCD2r1.
It should also be noted that the 5-drivers are very coherent - that they do sound as one. Unlike the K3003, which is a text-book disaster in how to make drivers sound NOT as one.
Thanks to Astral for sending these over. Anax will get them for a quick review and we'll send them back to us ASAP. Let us know if there is a time-frame.
-
Burst decays. I had some environmental noise in the bass with the L measurement. I hate to leave it like that, but I lack time to take all these measurements in the middle of the night.
-
Just curious: how well do these fit your ears if they're Astral's customs? Is their silicon build easier to wear for different people or something?
I'm definitely interested in the Spiral Ears. I think I might go with the SE 3-Way which is supposed to be brighter and thinner sounding. Plus "3 Way" sounds so enticing. Rawr.
(I don't think I could fit all those bores in my canals anyway...).
-
Yup - and the silicone impressions seemed to fit me right. Good insertion depth and seal despite the housing, which is a bit too big for me. That's one consideration folks should be aware of. From the pix above, it's clear the darn thing is near fully stuffed and about to explode with crossover components and drivers.
-
purrin, may I ask to what degree the left-right disparity in the treble is an accurate reflection of the earphones?
I'm new at trying to read these and any pointers on what sticks out to you when you look at them would be awesome, thanks.
-
To be totally honest, with the IEM's I'm not sure. I don't have enough data nor sufficient experience / confidence with IEM construction / measurements. I know the tubes can affect the measured FR. How this affects what we actually hear is unknown.
I do suspect there is some mismatch based on what I hear (only with music so far, but not with test tones) with this pair.
-
I was talking with Dr. Michael Santucci for the Sensaphonics reviews I did and he was talking a bit about the research they did on the acoustics of the ear. He mentioned, for example, that the ear canal eats a bit around 3.5khz (I think I remember, sorta). Anyway, I imagine that's the sort of thing that goes into some of your iem measurements, particularly in the treble range.
-
From the raw measurements, I push down 2.5-4 and bring up 7k+ to get the result. The comp curve was based on back and forth between accurate studio monitors in near-field and IEMs using 1/3 octave white noise.
-
Harmonic distortion.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=928.0;attach=3215;image)
I know it looks horrible, but BAs tend to have high odd order distortion. 3rd and 5th order distortion is notably lower than UERM's. I don't know what's up with the 2nd harmonic spike at 5kHz.
-
Oh snap, they measure much like they sound. What an unforseen coincidence. :)p6
Yes, there is some L/R imbalance in my pair, but it's nowhere near as bad as the 5k hole appears. The more evil part is the odd order distortion and upper midrange ringing.
The extreme highs are about as dropped as 5k, bit less.
Here's my personal compensation curve attached. Referenced to 500 Hz at comfortable volume of around 40 sones.
These have been reshelled once in the beginning of their life - before that, they were way, way more forward in the 3k sense.
-
Very nice!
-
I swear, I don't know what it is about 5 drivers, they are just so much more coherent a la duals. Gonna have to do an ES5/SE5 shoot out.
-
If you're going to do a 5-driver shootout, maybe the C5 can be a contender? I seriously need to order my pair soon and once I do, I'll send them over for measurements if no one else sends it
-
Thanks Purrin, have been looking forward to seeing this. Personal opinion on the 5-way?
Just curious: how well do these fit your ears if they're Astral's customs? Is their silicon build easier to wear for different people or something?
I'm definitely interested in the Spiral Ears. I think I might go with the SE 3-Way which is supposed to be brighter and thinner sounding. Plus "3 Way" sounds so enticing. Rawr.
(I don't think I could fit all those bores in my canals anyway...).
The 3-Way Pro is thinner and brighter, the 3-Way Reference is similar to the 5-Way Reference only slightly bassier and less resolving on the whole.
Grzegorz has several universals for each model available if you want to demo, IIRC.
-
Well, SE-5 is quite coherent, but it has one funny effect, I don't know what causes it.
For example, a jazz ensemble live recorded sounds like it has been pan-pot mastered - that's regardless of equalization. I think that has something to do with the reverberation interacting with various drivers or with phase response. It's not audible in all kinds of music, only in some "wide band" live music with clearly separated instruments. For instance, not in most rock stage recordings or orchestra. Not bad either way.
-
Is the THD referenced to some SPL full scale or to SPL at frequency - calibrated input voltage?
If it's the latter, the percentage is easy to explain - the driver is more than 10 dB quieter.
-
SPL/A @90db white noise
-
Purrin pardon my stupid question but I have to ask, in your opinion are silicon shelled customs generally more comfortable to wear and is there more involved in tuning the drivers due to the shells being silicon? I noticed you mentioned at the beginning of the thread the SE 5's overall sig was very coherent. You're not the first person I've run across to state that when discussing a silicon shelled custom. I'm wondering if there might be a correlation towards better sound based on shell material used.
-
Big gossip-y news about the SE5!
It's apparently been revamped for whatever reason (cost to manufacture, etc.) and the sound quality has decreased!
A number of people bought it on or after April 2012 and were like wtf this isn't how it's been described?!? Somebody who had an older set bought a new set around this time and found the new set to be much inferior to the old pair. He ended up selling the new set to some poor sap.
So, feel free to spread the news around and caveat emptor.
-
Wow, well... Interesting way to do business
-
Oh snap, they measure much like they sound. What an unforseen coincidence. :)p6
Yes, there is some L/R imbalance in my pair, but it's nowhere near as bad as the 5k hole appears. The more evil part is the odd order distortion and upper midrange ringing.
The extreme highs are about as dropped as 5k, bit less.
Here's my personal compensation curve attached. Referenced to 500 Hz at comfortable volume of around 40 sones.
These have been reshelled once in the beginning of their life - before that, they were way, way more forward in the 3k sense.
I hear these just the way AS does. I like them a lot, too bad the new version is nerfed. I have a theory about average_joe's "the se5 magically changes soundstage" thing, other than he thinks that about every iem set he really likes: I notice that the armatures in AS's SE5 are about equidistant from the end of the nozzle. This is quite different from other high-end multi ba iems/ciems. The 8.A, AS-2 and others all really put a lot of effort into putting the treble BAs as close to the end of the nozzle as they can. These ciem makers say it makes a huge difference. So, I thinking that a_j's reporting on something that happens a lot with multi ba designs--you hear one section of the frequency response as closer or farther away than another. On the AS-2 that I have (which needs a bit of a re-fit) this is part of the design. As a stage monitor, it's engineered to bring the vocals closer to you, which is perfect for a musician performing. Perhaps something similar, whether planned or unplanned (guess the latter) is happening with a_j's se5?
Also, I'll write up a short comparison my girlfriend did for me of the se5, 1plus2 and mg6pro. She listened to them for 2hours back and forth, and just commented on what stood out to her. I'm reviewed out, so it's a bit fun.
-
Placement of treble BA distance to low driver may result in slightly different FR from effect of tube length or other factors (mouth of the tube, speshal pathways, etc.) related to placement, but it's unlikely to have results affecting the time / phase alignment aspects given the ultra-small distances (a few mm) relative to audio wavelengths. In fact, I'm not even sure I hear changes moving a tweeter back ~25mm from the woofer with speakers.
For example, 10kHz wavelength is 34.3mm at sea level 20C. A few mm isn't going to affect phase or time alignment that much. The application of a passive crossover circuit, even first order, is more likely to muck that up because of impedance variation of the driver, and impossibility of obtaining exact cap / inductor values.
Heck some high order crossovers in speakers introduce a time delay of an entire cycle at several hundred Hz. Couple of meters? I do time align my subs with the mains, but that's on the order of hundreds of mm.
-
To correct some misinformation: Spiral Ears did not change their manufacturing method; nothing has changed. Also, another person on head-fi talked with all known owners of the SE5 before he purchased and found that there are only 2 people with sound issues the SE5. There used to be three people with issues, but one of the people sent his back and they were rebuilt completely which seemed to have fixed the issues. I believe Astral Storm can send his back and have them redone for free.
Also, I would love to see a picture of 2 SE5s next to 2 mg6pros and the 1plus2 to see how they all are sized...when impressions are posted, I hope the pictures are also posted. A simple phone pic will do as they are quite high quality these days.
-
I thought this is no issue, but a tuning choice. I had mine redone early, but maybe Grzegorz has improved his tech.
So yes, I'd like them back, will take new impressions (this time myself, so they will be good) and send this to Grzegorz for refit/do-over.
Then, I'll validate them by ear and perhaps send them for a measurement again.
My theory is that the "magical soundstage changes" are experienced mostly because SE-5 are linear in the mids, but have boosted bass and cut highs.
Therefore depending on the content, it will be quieter (farther) or louder (nearer).
They aren't peaky, so it doesn't sound like a mess.
-
To correct some misinformation: Spiral Ears did not change their manufacturing method; nothing has changed. Also, another person on head-fi talked with all known owners of the SE5 before he purchased and found that there are only 2 people with sound issues the SE5. There used to be three people with issues, but one of the people sent his back and they were rebuilt completely which seemed to have fixed the issues. I believe Astral Storm can send his back and have them redone for free.
Also, I would love to see a picture of 2 SE5s next to 2 mg6pros and the 1plus2 to see how they all are sized...when impressions are posted, I hope the pictures are also posted. A simple phone pic will do as they are quite high quality these days.
Really? Because Tupac is the one who had two sets, one old, one new, and found there to be difference in the sound, leading him to sell the newer set. Ha ha at the idea that Tupac's sets were differently sized and your "challenge" to show pictures, although maybe you should talk to Tupac, he's friends with Gavin, so maybe he has several 1plus2's as well and your fantasy photo shoot can be fulfilled in part.
Gregorz tried to invalidate someone's warranty on HF because they had carried it around in their pocket one time., so if he's really re-doing fit for free regardless of how long they've had it, then that would be a significant change in customer service.
-
I thought this is no issue, but a tuning choice. I had mine redone early, but maybe Grzegorz has improved his tech.
So yes, I'd like them back, will take new impressions (this time myself, so they will be good) and send this to Grzegorz for refit/do-over.
Then, I'll validate them by ear and perhaps send them for a measurement again.
My theory is that the "magical soundstage changes" are experienced mostly because SE-5 are linear in the mids, but have boosted bass and cut highs.
Therefore depending on the content, it will be quieter (farther) or louder (nearer).
They aren't peaky, so it doesn't sound like a mess.
A good theory. There's some background as to why I'm making fun of AJ--you see, he found the same magical soundstage with the EarSonics sm3. There was a whole process where he tested a number of iems, the sm3 was he favorite and it had this magical soundstage that nobody else described, the process was repeated with ciems, the se5 and magical soundstage.
You SE5 is very nice, I will look forward to hearing your take on how a re-fitted set sounds in comparison to the present one.
Also, when is the AstralSonics5 coming out and can I buy one?
-
Am I right that making a high-end dynamic driver ciem is much more difficult to do for a small set-up versus a multi-BA design?
-
Yes and no - both require skill. BAs are way less fussy, as they don't need any vents or resonant cavities.
Damping material is also quite hard to install properly, but e.g. FutureSonics does it.
I will try to make one out of VSonic GR07 (or newer) drivers. Because I can and they're easy to remove.
Wasn't planning on even small scale production - it's more of a scientific experiment.
I am also working on getting one of those cheaper probe microphones (e.g. Earthworks M23) and building an occluded ear simulator.
-
That sounds like a great thing to try, I'm looking forward to your results. Will you let purrin test some of your results?
-
Of course I will, no question about it.
-
Of course I will, no question about it.
Well, if it's successful, then maybe we can convince you to sell a very small batch!
As an aside, how hard would it be to do the same with the sony EX-1000? I always felt that this was a very good driver and that Sony's choices for tuning might not be the most sucessful sound (although I'm sure they had their reasons and I like the ex-1000 very much).
-
Much harder, it's a very complex multi-part system from what I can gather. I bet it would just break when taking it apart.
GR07 is just a cellulose driver inside a nice brass grille, with some venting on the back.
-
Sorry to ask so many questions, but it's really cool you are doing this. Would you put in some sort of basic or complex dampening system? Something more than the gr07 has, at any rate? How will you tune it?
-
I'll make a version in silicone and later in 3D printed ABS.
We'll see what kind of damping is necessary. I have Hifiman foam, fabric and mesh dampers and some microfibre cloth if necessary. I can also use Knowles dampers if highs prove to be problematic - or for venting.
Internally, I'm thinking to use either cotton or glass wool behind the driver. Cotton is less stable against moisture, but dampens highs better. (so good in fact one has to be careful with the amount)
No venting most likely, since this driver is bassy as it is. I can add vents if they prove to be necessary. GR07 itself has only a front pinhole vent.
The tubing will be wider than VSonic's standard nozzle, which actually limits highs extension of the driver based on a preliminary check of the previous IEM. I'll use 4/6mm silicone tube in the silicone variant, no extra tubing for ABS variant is necessary, as the interior will be printed too.
By the way, the 7k hotness in GR07 is caused by a shell resonance, so should be gone by default.
GR07 Bass Edition can also be used, it's the same driver with more venting on the shell. (extra 2 pinholes, one near strain relief, the other on front outside the tip)
Flagship has a different shell material (polypropylene?) and has 2 out of 3 vents: front one and the strain relief one.
On an unrelated note, I have 2x Knowles TWFK from Brainwavz B2 and 2x Sonion 26A005/8 (http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/Receivers/~/media/Files/Products/Data%20Sheets/Transducers/Receivers/Receivers%202600/Receiver%202600/26A005-8_v3.ashx) armatures from Sleek Audio SA-6.
Unfortunately, I don't have any good extreme treble BA - will have to order. Sonion makes one that extends up to 20k pretty linearly. (Found it: Sonion 2354 (http://www.sonion.com/Products/Transducers/Receivers/~/media/Files/Products/Data%20Sheets/Transducers/Receivers/Receivers%202300/Receiver%202300/2354_v2.ashx))
Yes, I do have parts to build a passive crossover, but I'll use a design similar to UE PRM - with the crossover as an add on box. Easier to tweak it that way.
So, given what armatures I have right now, I could build a combo where both armatures work almost in parallel, but TWFK is filtered with a 6k semi-wide cut, while Sonion has a smaller cut around 2.5k. Need a slight resonant boost at 1k, as both of these have a dip.
I will start a thread elsewhere to not completely derail this one.
Here it is: Hack-a-CIEM: Pirate's story (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1028.msg26928.html)
-
Really? Because Tupac is the one who had two sets, one old, one new, and found there to be difference in the sound, leading him to sell the newer set. Ha ha at the idea that Tupac's sets were differently sized and your "challenge" to show pictures, although maybe you should talk to Tupac, he's friends with Gavin, so maybe he has several 1plus2's as well and your fantasy photo shoot can be fulfilled in part.
Gregorz tried to invalidate someone's warranty on HF because they had carried it around in their pocket one time., so if he's really re-doing fit for free regardless of how long they've had it, then that would be a significant change in customer service.
I have PMed with Tupac many times, and I will just say you don't have the story 100% correct. If you look at my SE5 review, I have 2 and they sounded a bit different due to canal length differences. Tupac didn't sell his newer set BTW. Wrong seems to be a recurring theme with your posts.
As you know, the picture is to prove you and your GF have the SE5. Seems you both have the same exact ear size and the SE5 you borrowed just happens to fit perfectly. Why bother customising them?
As far as the warranty, do you really know the whole story, because you are sure stating it like you don't.
There's some background as to why I'm making fun of AJ--you see, he found the same magical soundstage with the EarSonics sm3. There was a whole process where he tested a number of iems, the sm3 was he favorite and it had this magical soundstage that nobody else described, the process was repeated with ciems, the se5 and magical soundstage.
More false information, or mis-interpretation coming from the defender of the mg6pro, but as expected. If anyone is interested enough, I would recommend they see Kunlun's responses to any mg6pro detractors in his mg6pro thread (not to mention the comparisons with a universal demo of the JH16 without letting people know it was a demo), and then read my SM3 threads as well as the multitude of other reviews that agree with my review.
-
Consider my allowance of this dialogue to be a form of 'Constructive Engagement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_engagement)' which hopefully leads to 'Detente (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9tente)'. Maybe someone learns something about the SE5 along the way. popcorn
-
Thanks, Anaxilus! I'm Kunlun Reagan and it's A. J. Botha.
First of all, chickenshit accusations aren't a way to handle this, AJ. I'm going to post a picture of AS's SE5 and you will man up and apologize or you will never, ever hear the end of it.
The other lies are just pathetic. I'll answer them if you want to be be proven wrong. I will say that Cn11 and Soundfreaq don't like the mg6pro as much as I do and hey presto nobdoy cares and we're all cool.
If you can find someone who says as you do that both the sm3 and se5 have magical mids/soundstages which cannot be defined because they magically change to fit the music, then I will concede the point with the manly, Reagan-like statesmanship for which I am known.
Okay, for the se5. I was told by a person who had talked with tupac via pm that there was a difference in no uncertain terms and that this difference, as near as could be determined, began with units starting around May 2012. Again, I am telling you the truth, that is what I was told. Tupac's public statements may be different. I am not going to reveal my sources, you will just have to accept that.
For the warranty issue, that is a big deal. IIRC, a head-fi'er stated that he had a quality control issue and Gregorz told him the warranty was void because he had put the se5 in his pocket. Gregorz was forced to walk that back and ended up accepting the se5 for service, but it was a bad sign that he had even tried to void the warranty in the first place.
Otherwise, I like the se5 and AstralStorm nailed it in his description. The mids don't magically change, but they are nice.
-
Posting a photo of AS' SE5 is not what AJ was asking.
This "I heard someone say that this person PM'ed that..." is not acceptable in a continued argument.
I'm now tired of this and am asking you to stop it. Until better evidence exists that there is a revision change, the only thing I can figure out is that some units may have issues and need to be sent back for rework. Oh, and Kunlun likes the SE5 and Astralstorm nailed it in his description. Fantastic.
-
Uh, AJ said the picture was to prove I actually have an se5 at hand. It's right in this thread...
I If you see AS's se5 it's like a demo set with long canals. It's pretty amazing.
As for the rest, sorry?
-
Fine, let's move on. Thank you.
-
(http://www.head-fi.org/image/id/4703874/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
I'll just leave this here and take the rest to AJ's pm box.
-
I hear these just the way AS does...
Also, I'll write up a short comparison my girlfriend did for me of the se5, 1plus2 and mg6pro. She listened to them for 2hours back and forth, and just commented on what stood out to her. I'm reviewed out, so it's a bit fun.
To correct some misinformation: ...
I would love to see a picture of 2 SE5s next to 2 mg6pros and the 1plus2 to see how they all are sized...when impressions are posted, I hope the pictures are also posted. A simple phone pic will do as they are quite high quality these days.
First of all, chickenshit accusations aren't a way to handle this, AJ. I'm going to post a picture of AS's SE5 and you will man up and apologize or you will never, ever hear the end of it.
What exactly am I accusing you of? The picture was to prove you have the SE5 in hand, and this pic does not do that. At this point it is irrelevant, but credibility could be earned by taking a picture with your mg6pro and the SE5 in the same camera frame with a high enough resolution so we can make out the details (2011 phones had 8MP resolution). The resolution of your pic is so low I can't tell if this is a SE3 or SE5.
Anyways, my goal was to flush out the truth you seemed to be leaving out, which I did. You may have heard AS's SE5, which may or may not have issues. As for the apology: you should be apologizing to this forum for spreading gossip and making misleading statements.
-
I'm not sure where this was all going or where it came from but Kunlun does have the SE5 which I personally sent to him. It belongs to AS who loaned it to me and gave me permission to forward to Kunlun.
-
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/536/820/07d.gif)
Enough!
-
Wow.