CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => IEM Measurements => Topic started by: partiallydisabled on August 23, 2015, 10:45:42 AM
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Got some IEMs, measured them. K10 custom and 10.A custom
Measurement setup is a Vibrolabs Veritas and Behringer UM2 USB Audio Interface. Software used is Room EQ Wizard.
(http://i.imgur.com/fcFRn0u.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Cf3ycAb.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/QWViLAy.jpg)
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how much octave smoothing is used?
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1/24.
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Never mind the smoothing, what is up with that 20dB division scale?
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Seems they were not sealed perfectly?
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We're going to need to put rules in place regarding measurements. S/N ratio is dropping when people post random stuff
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We're going to need to put rules in place regarding measurements. S/N ratio is dropping when people post random stuff
Wait until the new site. Measurement posts will require moderator approval and even before that, a post describing the measurement rig and process. Should be a short Q&A form to fill out so all questions are answered. Not doubting the results, but as Jude says: different measurement rigs, different results.
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They almost look all the same, don't they?
Don't know about the 10.A, but people that reviewed the Savant and had the K10 said that the Savant had noticeable less bass than the K10....
Anyways, I think it's always nice that other people are measuring their stuff, maybe you just need to tweak one thing or another :money:
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They almost look all the same, don't they?
Don't know about the 10.A, but people that reviewed the Savant and had the K10 said that the Savant had noticeable less bass than the K10....
Anyways, I think it's always nice that other people are measuring their stuff, maybe you just need to tweak one thing or another :money:
You zoom back far enough and everything looks the same. Eventually you end up in Bigshot territory where everything sounds the same too.
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Vibrolabs Veritas do they provide instructions how to set it up and provide ideal curve and capsule compensation curve.
Vibrolabs says easy measurement but dont say anything about soundcard and other stuff.
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Some really poor measurements going on if the K10 and Savant have the same bass.
Meanwhile, since the Heir 10.A is there: David Tao Jiang, head of Heir Audio, literally tried to steal money from mothers trying to support their children. We don't really think about the people who engineer and build ciems, but for Heir, it was a bunch of moms supporting their families. David Tao Jiang decided he'd make more money if he never paid them.
When the entire design and engineering staff of Heir moved to Noble (where they are part owners of the Chinese company which is part of Noble and insured fair treatment), David Tao Jiang tried to bribe police to raid their offices. It ended up not working and Noble is doing well, in spite of human diaper rash David Tao Jiang.
So, yeah, I don't really think people should buy from any company associated with David Tao Jiang, Heir is one of those and Earwerks is another (Earwerks was sold Dr. Moulton's early and old designs without any credit or money going to Dr. Moulton--it was all pocketed by David Tao Jiang).
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Hi guys,
Thanks for chiming in.
The IEMs were mounted and measured 5 times to make sure that seal problems are ruled out.
I am using Room EQ Wizard, should I use Arta instead?
Would be good if some of you guys can share some measurements methodology you have and I will re-measure according to your standard.
And upon listening comparison between Kaiser 10 and Savant, I found that the Savant are more coherent sounding and better balanced, although the Kaiser 10 are way better in separation and detail retreival. The Savant sounds more open too. I like the Savants more than the Kaiser 10.
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Some really poor measurements going on if the K10 and Savant have the same bass.
Meanwhile, since the Heir 10.A is there: David Tao Jiang, head of Heir Audio, literally tried to steal money from mothers trying to support their children. We don't really think about the people who engineer and build ciems, but for Heir, it was a bunch of moms supporting their families. David Tao Jiang decided he'd make more money if he never paid them.
When the entire design and engineering staff of Heir moved to Noble (where they are part owners of the Chinese company which is part of Noble and insured fair treatment), David Tao Jiang tried to bribe police to raid their offices. It ended up not working and Noble is doing well, in spite of human diaper rash David Tao Jiang.
So, yeah, I don't really think people should buy from any company associated with David Tao Jiang, Heir is one of those and Earwerks is another (Earwerks was sold Dr. Moulton's early and old designs without any credit or money going to Dr. Moulton--it was all pocketed by David Tao Jiang).
Kunlun,
We have NEVER, in any way, shape or, form, been affiliated with Heir audio or any of their associates. All of our designs are 100% meticulously engineered from scratch right here in Georgia, USA by the same 4 engineers that we've been working with since 1998, one of them being my father. We have made tens of thousands of original CIEMs for numerous companies and have been a staple in the manufacturing industry behind doors with EarWerkz being our debut retail front. I hope this clears things up!
Regards,
Jack Vang
Founder
EarWerkz
p.s. I've already talked to Jude about this, and I'll see you on Head-Fi in a month! (Future Sponsor)
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Kunlun,
We have NEVER, in any way, shape or, form, been affiliated with Heir audio or any of their associates. All of our designs are 100% meticulously engineered from scratch right here in Georgia, USA by the same 4 engineers that we've been working with since 1998, one of them being my father. We have made tens of thousands of original CIEMs for numerous companies and have been a staple in the manufacturing industry behind doors with EarWerkz being our debut retail front. I hope this clears things up!
Regards,
Jack Vang
Founder
EarWerkz
p.s. I've already talked to Jude about this, and I'll see you on Head-Fi in a month! (Future Sponsor)
And this is the kind of stuff I don't like to see.
What you seem to be saying is:
"We did not sell Dr. Moulton's early and old designs to anybody" and "We never had in our possession any of Dr. Moulton's designs". Correct?
Please verify statements above and if possible avoid threats.
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And this is the kind of stuff I don't like to see.
What you seem to be saying is:
"We did not sell Dr. Moulton's early and old designs to anybody" and "We never had in our possession any of Dr. Moulton's designs". Correct?
Please verify statements above and if possible avoid threats.
Geppetto,
No threats were intended. To elaborate we've been dealing with these false rumors for awhile, with it's pinpointed origin known, but we've remained quiet up until now. Since we intend to be sponsors on another popular forum I felt that it was my duty to clear the air with their owner Jude, months ago, that we were in no way ever affiliated with Heir audio/Moulton/Noble or any of their employees, designs, products, etc.
In regards to what you're asking
1. No. We've never "purchased" or have been "sold" or "given" any of our competitor's designs nor will we ever seek it out. We are more than capable of producing our own products from the ground up.
2. Like any other full service CIEM/IEM company we offer a full service repair.
Best,
Jack Vang
Founder
EarWerkz
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Thanks Jack. I hope you don't mind if we don't delete anything. I feel that deleting things rather than leaving things out in the open harbors suspicion and feeds even more rumors. I've had one of our moderators respond to you.
As far as I am concerned, I don't trust hearsay. Direct evidence needs to be presented.
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Geppetto,
No threats were intended. To elaborate we've been dealing with these false rumors for awhile, with it's pinpointed origin known, but we've remained quiet up until now. Since we intend to be sponsors on another popular forum I felt that it was my duty to clear the air with their owner Jude, months ago, that we were in no way ever affiliated with Heir audio/Moulton/Noble or any of their employees, designs, products, etc.
In regards to what you're asking
1. No. We've never "purchased" or have been "sold" or "given" any of our competitor's designs nor will we ever seek it out. We are more than capable of producing our own products from the ground up.
2. Like any other full service CIEM/IEM company we offer a full service repair.
Best,
Jack Vang
Founder
EarWerkz
Well. That's that.
Now go on and continue through this forum in peace.
(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/25478835.jpg)
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Merv/Geppetto/TheGame,
Thank you guys sincerely for giving me the opportunity to respond and clear things up in public. It's been a nuisance for us.
Best,
Jack
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I would like to hear other side of story (David Tao Jiang)
Code, designs and other IP belong to the company and not to the designer. Company can sell it to anyone.
Even if EarWerkz bought it, why should someone ruin their business and livelihood of workers.
Someone has to prove that the designs and crossovers Earwerkz use are from someone else before mud slinging.
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Hi Muz02, as for David Tao Jiang, the part about the bribed police raid is hard for him to deny, since he tried to spread news of that himself (minus the bribed part) as a way to claim that Noble was going out of business. It ended up backfiring as the troll accounts he used got him banned from head-fi and the raid went nowhere.
Hello Jack, thanks for coming. As I have the story, the designs came through a company called Janus, so you're right, there was no direct connection with Heir, only an indirect one. I think to really clear the air and be totally honest, I'd love for you to answer: What relationship do you have with Jiang Tao?
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I believe you heard only one side of the story? How sure are you that story you heard is 100% true?
Anyways is it possible for someone here to share the measuring methodology? I would love to improve my measurements to make them more useful here.
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Hi Muz02, as for David Tao Jiang, the part about the bribed police raid is hard for him to deny, since he tried to spread news of that himself (minus the bribed part) as a way to claim that Noble was going out of business. It ended up backfiring as the troll accounts he used got him banned from head-fi and the raid went nowhere.
The guy was VP of Phonak and CEO of micro-DSP its hard to believe he just didnt pay his workers
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Anyways is it possible for someone here to share the measuring methodology? I would love to improve my measurements to make them more useful here.
Ey, try asking/checking here -> http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2305.0.html
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Hi Muz02, as for David Tao Jiang, the part about the bribed police raid is hard for him to deny, since he tried to spread news of that himself (minus the bribed part) as a way to claim that Noble was going out of business. It ended up backfiring as the troll accounts he used got him banned from head-fi and the raid went nowhere.
Hello Jack, thanks for coming. As I have the story, the designs came through a company called Janus, so you're right, there was no direct connection with Heir, only an indirect one. I think to really clear the air and be totally honest, I'd love for you to answer: What relationship do you have with Jiang Tao?
Kunlun,
I have NEVER met Jiang Tao or have ever heard of him prior to these accusations. Feel free to double verify with Alan Newton, Janus' CEO. Understand that several of these US companies would not be coming to us and paying US labor if they had to give or sell us the blueprint, that's what third world outsourcing is for. CIEMs are the smallest segment of our business and the least complex when compared to our medical devices. So once again ALL of our designs are made in house and we've never bought, been sold, or have been given any "designs" by a third party.
Best,
Jack
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Hi Folks,
This is sticky stuff.
Janus Development (from my understanding) is essentially a marketing company. They market a product called the "SpeechEasy" which the internal parts/chipset was developed by MicroDSP in conjunction with East Carolina Univ. https://www.ecu.edu/cs-dhs/csd/speecheasy.cfm
(more information about the speecheasy can be found on YouTube).
The SpeechEasy, in a custom format, requires a shell (just like a hearing aid). Janus initially utilized a company called "Argosy" to build the shells, and eventually Janus moved that service to Savvitek. http://www.bizapedia.com/ga/SAVVITEK-LABORATORIES-INC.html
Jiang Tao was a board member of Janus, http://www.corporationwiki.com/North-Carolina/Greenville/janus-development-group-inc/55781422.aspx
Jiang Tao (according to Jiang Tao) showed Janus all the designs, demo products, sample shells, etc etc created by at that time his business partner Dr. Moulton. Essentially what happened was Jiang Tao created another CIEM competing against Heir Audio. (while holding a postion at Janus and Heir Audio)
Janus approached Savvitek, a natural fit, to build CIEMs under the Name "Gorilla Ears."
It is not the contention of Dr. Moulton that Gorilla Ears/Ear Works/Savvitek usses the plans provided by Jiang Tao. Did those plans ever flow down to the inner workings of Savvitek? I don't know, that would be a guess. I'm not sure that they would be even of any help. For example, if say a company has a working product line, they would have (in theory) an inventory of specific drivers to support that line. If another product design was introduced, in order to adopt that product, more parts would need to be stocked. It would seem to me, to adopt a new plan under a long term product line up would be an expensive endeavor.
"The guy was VP of Phonak and CEO of micro-DSP its hard to believe he just didnt pay his workers"
It isn't that simple with Chinese labor laws. Essentially it works like this. In China employee is mandated to sign an employment contract, and within that contract will be a non-compete clause. Here is the sticker.... if you leave that company, you can not compete..... but your FORMER employer must pay you a "binders sallary" in order to keep the contract active.
If this binding sallary is not paid, then you are no longer bound by the contract. (contract is usually 2 years). A lot of employers don't bother to pay, probably under the assumption that their former employee wouldn't have the means to start a competing company etc etc.
Regardless all this drama was nearly 3 years ago (at least the start up of Gorilla Ears.) & the fomation of Noble, approximately 2 years ago. We have moved on.
"And upon listening comparison between Kaiser 10 and Savant, I found that the Savant are more coherent sounding and better balanced, although the Kaiser 10 are way better in separation and detail retreival. The Savant sounds more open too. I like the Savants more than the Kaiser 10. "
Wonderful comments, and I'm torn as well..... not sure which one I like most. Sometimes I like the Savant most & sometimes I like the K10 the most!
Cheers,
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Did those plans ever flow down to the inner workings of Savvitek? I don't know, that would be a guess.
John,
A bad guess at that, it never flowed. Unless you have concrete evidence, which doesn't exist, leave this behind as it's obvious where all of this information is circulating from.
Best,
Jack
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All of this is nonsense to me. Sounds like a Hollywood film made by the Coen brothers. All you need is to add an accidental murder by a desperate and clumsy character. Maybe John Tutturo or William H. Macy can put on yellowface and play an Chinese person.
Consumer IEM tech, for what it's worth, isn't exactly rocket science. Some hobbyists have figured it out. The designs are more or less the same from manufacturer to manufacturer. The real challenges in this crowded market are with marketing, production, and service.
99.9% of people on this forum really don't give a shit at what Mr. Wang Ba Dan did or did not do to screw over people. In the end, Lord Karma is a bitch.
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You sir, deserve a medal for that comment alone. :)p7
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Here is new story for Novel.
A businessman found a talent and offered him minority partner in new company. Business grows and a successful brand is created with lot of following. Businessman tries to grown his business in different countries and offers different companies subsidiaries. Meanwhile minority partner wants more for his skills and hardwork. A new marketing company/person sniffs some opportunity and offers the guy fame , success and lot of money. Together they ditch the businessman and start new business which competes with original company and products. Businessman threatens them with contract and anti competitive agreements but doesnot work due to country labor laws.
They take away all skilled labor from the businessman, launch it big on popular forum and sponsor it. Old businessman tries to defend it in vain. He also cant afford the forum fees and looses it membership.
“This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.”
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Money is very evil and sinful. Free yourselves from it. Just PM me and give it to me. I'll bite the bullet.
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Here is new story for Novel.
A businessman found a talent and offered him minority partner in new company. Business grows and a successful brand is created with lot of following. Businessman tries to grown his business in different countries and offers different companies subsidiaries. Meanwhile minority partner wants more for his skills and hardwork. A new marketing company/person sniffs some opportunity and offers the guy fame , success and lot of money. Together they ditch the businessman and start new business which competes with original company and products. Businessman threatens them with contract and anti competitive agreements but doesnot work due to country labor laws.
They take away all skilled labor from the businessman, launch it big on popular forum and sponsor it. Old businessman tries to defend it in vain. He also cant afford the forum fees and looses it membership.
If this is about NOBLE your way off.
The arangement with Heir Audio was Dr. John was the majority share holder. Dr. John is also the majority share holder on Noble.
A new marketing company/person sniffs some opportunity and offers the guy fame , success and lot of money
So you think Dr John was recruited, to work for a maketing company? That spin doesn't apply to Noble.
They take away all skilled labor from the businessman,
The labor force was leaving with or without Dr John and in fact some had left before Dr John left.
"....... cant afford the forum fees and looses it membership"
You don't get "banned" if you can't afford to pay your fees. You may opt out of sponsorship status, and move to "MOT" status, and if the day comes when you want to become a sponsor again, you are welcomed with open arms.
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Its just wild imagination, and I added a disclaimer.
Anyway nice work on Noble K10 and Savant. Dr John has really special skills and crafts some of most beautiful CIEM.
So how do you manufacture them, you might need to give me some credit for full wood ciems >:D
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Does anyone know if the savant is a balance armeture design for certain? Read something about it in another forum but can't remember which one.
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Noble website says its a BA iem.
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I really wonder how many drivers there are..
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May be its single driver ?
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Moving away from all the "gossip" I wanted to talk about the measurements. I also use Veritas and can say that the measurements in general are a bit dipped beyond 2khz so that should be taken into account. Also I have measured the Heir 10.A and they extend under 100hz much better than that so I don't think seal is right on any of them. When unsealed bass looks similar like in this case and also can be quite jumpy like with the 10.A measurements here. I personally use a startech sound card for measuring and it seems to be low OI and let them iems perform pretty natrually.
This website actually have some measurement comparisons of the new Campfire Lyra that they done on Veritas vs what Campfire done themselves with a 711.
http://www.inearspace.com/#!Campfire-Audio-Lyra-Beryllium-for-Bass/c112t/55c8ba960cf26d0f7e9d708f
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Moving away from all the "gossip" I wanted to talk about the measurements. I also use Veritas and can say that the measurements in general are a bit dipped beyond 2khz so that should be taken into account. Also I have measured the Heir 10.A and they extend under 100hz much better than that so I don't think seal is right on any of them. When unsealed bass looks similar like in this case and also can be quite jumpy like with the 10.A measurements here. I personally use a startech sound card for measuring and it seems to be low OI and let them iems perform pretty natrually.
This website actually have some measurement comparisons of the new Campfire Lyra that they done on Veritas vs what Campfire done themselves with a 711.
http://www.inearspace.com/#!Campfire-Audio-Lyra-Beryllium-for-Bass/c112t/55c8ba960cf26d0f7e9d708f
Do you have a measurement of the 10.A?
And also, how accurate are the Veritas?
I will try changing my USB audio interface to see if I can get a better measurement and repost them.