CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: prtuc2 on June 11, 2013, 11:28:23 PM
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Hi fellow Pirates,
I am in the market for a pair of bookshelf speakers under $2500.
My room is approximately 22 X 17 with a 9 foot ceiling. Going to use the bookshelf speakers as a computer speakers so it will be near-field setup about 18 inches away from the wall.
I listen mostly acoustic and vocal types of music for reference (in case someone asked). Need some suggestions from some of the more knowledgeable and experiences users here.
I don't really care about the aesthetic. However, would like to keep it reasonable size under 18" in height.
Thanks for everyone in advance.
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The KEF LS50 seems very well suited to nearfield use. I would also definitely look into the Fritz Rev 5. ProAC, Spendor, and PMC all play in this league. Of the trio, the PMC DB1i is IMO the best overall. The ProAC Tablette is a little hot up top, and the Spendor SA1 is the opposite, a little too mellow for its own good.
In my experience smaller cabinets, both in width and height, work better than larger ones in the nearfield, at least as far as imaging is concerned. I would suggest setting a height restriction closer to maybe 14" rather than 18". That will mean 5" and 6" bass drivers instead of 7" and 8", but you'll get much better bass adding a subwoofer than you will with an extra 5Hz or so of extension that the extra inch will buy you anyway.
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Thanks Dave for your suggestions.
I was looking at the Kef LS50 and the Fritz as well. I guess I will make an audition for the both speakers.
The PMC, Spendor, and ProAc does not seems to have good availability inside the US.
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I second the Fritz bookshelf speakers. (I did not like the floor standing speaker at THE SHOW. Something was wrong with that floorstander speaker, source, recording, pre-amp, or combination. I think it was a floorstanding speaker Fritz made for THE SHOW at the as minute or something - he typically does small box two ways.)
- Fritz REV 5 (going to have some amazing low low bass for a small 5.5" paper cone. I've used that driver before.) $2100/pr (meets your size requirements)
- Fritz Excel 7 (very articulate sound / fast decay with the Excel 7 woofer - don't get the ribbon tweeter option) $2300/pr (probably slightly too big for your requirements)
- Also check out http://www.taylorspeakers.com/index.html (http://www.taylorspeakers.com/index.html) or the Madisound kits. I've had Lee Taylor make a cabinet for me before. Top notch stuff and he knows what he's talking about.
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Thanks Marv, will give Fritz a pm see what he suggest.
Did you hear the KEF LS50 at THE SHOW recently? Looking at the frequency response (79hz-28khz) the bass does not extend that low just from the specification of course hearing it make the distinction better.
Thanks once again for taking your time to reply.
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Thanks Dave for your suggestions.
I was looking at the Kef LS50 and the Fritz as well. I guess I will make an audition for the both speakers.
The PMC, Spendor, and ProAc does not seems to have good availability inside the US.
Sure. Fritz sells direct, so you'll have to have them sent to you. You may have an easier time finding the Totem Model 1 Signature than the Brits, and it's worth a listen. DALI's Mentor Menuet is another. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of DALI speakers, but this is one of their better efforts.
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Active pro monitors are perfect for your requirements.
I switched over to active pro monitors a few years ago, and haven't looked back. In your price range, you could get some excellent pro monitors that are designed to be used on shelves, close to the wall, and near field. They also will fit your size requirements, and allow you to use a DAC with a volume control directly into the speaker, saving you a good deal of space. The price structure in the pro market is much better than in the consumer market, and I think that the sound is better too.
You also should only consider speakers that are sealed (my preference), or that have a front facing port. You are putting them a bit close to the wall for a rear ported speaker.
I have a pair of Adam A7's that are great for the price, and a pair of Klein and Hummel O300's that are great period. Sennheiser bought Klein and Hummel, and now sells their speakers under the Neumann moniker. They just released an updated version of my speakers, the Neumann KH 310a. A bit out of your price range, unless you were going to spend a lot on your amplifier.
Look at Adam, Neumann, Dynaudio, Focal, and Genelec, for starters.
If you have your heart set on passives, I would seriously consider the Magnepan Mini for your setup. Available for a trial period, and well under your budget.
(edit - Added information about port)
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Did you hear the KEF LS50 at THE SHOW recently? Looking at the frequency response (79hz-28khz) the bass does not extend that low just from the specification of course hearing it make the distinction better.
They reach lower than the specs imply, the 40 range is no problem. The optimal solution would still be to get a sub and cross them over at 80, or even a bit higher if you like to listen loud. For nearfield use in a room that large they'd be perfect.
Still there are a lot of great monitors to be had for under 2500$, including the active pro products.
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If you're going to use them with a sub, don't overlook the PSB Imagine Mini. They roll off fast below about 70 Hz, but above that they are pretty wonderful. And they're $800/pair, leaving plenty of money left for a sub, cables, etc.
If you're in SoCal, I'm happy to arrange for you to hear them in my office.
I haven't measured them, but my subjective impression of the LS50 at T.H.E. Show was that they were close to flat down into the 40s.
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Thanks everyone for the suggestions so far. Getting a subwoofer is out of the question, since living in an apartment in NYC. I will check my local audio stores see if they carries those models.
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PMC does both active and passive monitors and is very good at both. The Neumanns I've heard were very nice, Genelecs are also good but they can be on the bright side. Not a fan of Dynaudio actives or Focals in general. I had Dynaudio BM12As on my desk for awhile, very blah. Unfortunately the mini Maggies wont work with only a foot and a half of space behind them.
The PSB Imagine Mini definitely isn't a bad little speaker but the Synchrony One is WAY better, though it may be just a smidge too big for the role.
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I haven't heard them yet but I have them on order and is going to arrive next week.
They're called Ohm Walsh Micro Tall SE. There's a shorter version of it that is in the size of bookshelf and is omnidirectional. Apparently they're highly regarded and retain an impressive sound, though they aren't active speakers.
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Omnis aren't really ideal for a nearfield setup. And in all honesty the Walsh speakers aren't all that good to begin with, IMO.
As a matter of fact, forget going through the trouble of auditioning and searching for good speakers. Just get this and bump it http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/12/panasonic-karaoke-boombox-is-crazy-expensive/ (http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/12/panasonic-karaoke-boombox-is-crazy-expensive/) :)p17
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The vintage Walsh speakers were notoriously unreliable and had serious problems in terms of driver behavior and coherence across the frequency range. From what I understand the newer ones have shifted away from being FR single driver based to a design a little bit more like a Shahinian with a separate tweeter that points between you and the ceiling. Still, there's a reason why these guys are vastly more expensive than Ohm speakers. The concept is sound, but the execution at bargain prices is maybe a bit lacking.
(http://www.theaudiobeat.com/rmaf2009/pics_100409/german_physiks.jpg)
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As a matter of fact, forget going through the trouble of auditioning and searching for good speakers. Just get this and bump it http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/12/panasonic-karaoke-boombox-is-crazy-expensive/ (http://www.engadget.com/2013/06/12/panasonic-karaoke-boombox-is-crazy-expensive/) :)p17
ZOMG! Super woofers!!!
(http://p.im9.eu/rainbow-meme-face.jpg)
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I'm not sure how much this'll help, but I found the database of all of Soundstage Magazine's measurements they did at NRC. http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=18 (http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=16&Itemid=18) Just by the measurements, the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 looked pretty nice, and for around $350.
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Just a thought. Call Fritz and make sure his speakers will do well on a desktop with a wall behind it (I assume this is your setup). The baffle-step compensation for his speakers may be for them to be mounted on stands away from walls / floors. If this is so, ask him if you can tweak the x-over baffle-step to work in a desktop configuration. In other words, if they are designed to be on stands away from walls and floors, the speakers can sound too boomy on a desk backed against a wall.
This is one area where active pro-monitors may be better since most of them have adjustments for half-space, quarter-space, etc.
My thoughts in general:
- Get the best drivers you can find. (easy to identify - yeah Fritz does use some of the best drivers money can buy)
- Get the most solid cabinet construction. (These tiny things (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,290.msg4039.html#msg4039) weighed 15 lbs each!) A lot of "big name" stuff use lightweight materials ("advanced" plastics, etc.)
- Make sure the speaker is tuned for use on a desktop. (you can always measure and EQ though, which I highly recommend.)
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I agree with the recommendation to contact Fritz. I've owned his Carbon 7s for a few years now, and love them!
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In a somewhat similar situation than you (room size, no subwoofer, etc.), I started listening to a number of active speakers from various retailers. My choice finally settled on those : http://www.psiaudio.com/product/active-monitors/a17-m
I don't think I have sufficient experience with speakers for my opinion to be taken too seriously (take it with a truckload of salt), but I have to say, in comparison to other active speakers I tried (the usual suspects), I was quite astonished by their imaging (of course when properly set up). Details were pretty impressive too, while remaining absolutely non-fatiguing. I know PSI isn't well distributed in Northern America, and even in Paris did it take me a while to find where to try them, but I would try, if possible, to give them a listen, among other suggestions.
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Fritz recommended the me trying out the Fritz Rev 5, so will be getting that to audition in about two weeks. I will go try audition the KEF LS50 in the local area as well. Thanks for everyone's recommendations.
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Both those speakers are designed to be used on stands, and are rear ported, and you want to use them on a shelf 18" from the wall. Given your setup constraints, you would be better off with front ported or sealed speakers. As I said before, active pro monitors are designed exactly for your setup situation.
Of course, you have to get what floats your boat. I have not listened to the Fritz speakers. The LS50's sounded very impressive in show conditions. There are, I believe, several retailers in NYC where you can go hear the LS50's anytime they are open. I'm not sure if there is a Spendor retailer here, but they make small sealed two ways that could be worth checking out.
You live in a city with a lot of great retailers. You are willing to spend a decent amount of money on a pair of speakers. Go around to different shops, tell them what your setup is like, and audition some speakers. Start at Lyric Hi Fi, Innovative Audio, and Stereo Exchange, and bring some music. All of them have at least one speaker that fits your parameters, and you would really be doing yourself a favor by going around and listening instead of just asking us yahoos on the internet. Plus, it would be fun.
The pro stuff is harder to audition, Guitar Center has a lot of stuff, and BH Photo has a room setup for auditioning, but the speakers are all setup poorly.
Happy hunting.
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The vintage Walsh speakers were notoriously unreliable and had serious problems in terms of driver behavior and coherence across the frequency range. From what I understand the newer ones have shifted away from being FR single driver based to a design a little bit more like a Shahinian with a separate tweeter that points between you and the ceiling. Still, there's a reason why these guys are vastly more expensive than Ohm speakers. The concept is sound, but the execution at bargain prices is maybe a bit lacking.
And this is supposed to mean something?
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The Kef L-50 (?), something with 50 in the name, that Stereophile reviewed. Or if you want to go really budget, the Wharfdale Diamond. Otherwise, I would look for sealed box speakers, asI find ported speakers tending toward muddy or bloomy for my taste. Of course, a lot depends on your musical preferences. Good luck.
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PMC does both active and passive monitors and is very good at both. The Neumanns I've heard were very nice, Genelecs are also good but they can be on the bright side. Not a fan of Dynaudio actives or Focals in general. I had Dynaudio BM12As on my desk for awhile, very blah. Unfortunately the mini Maggies wont work with only a foot and a half of space behind them.
The PSB Imagine Mini definitely isn't a bad little speaker but the Synchrony One is WAY better, though it may be just a smidge too big for the role.
Dave:
One speaker that has always looked--on paper--like a quality active-monitor option at a decent price is the JBL LSR-28 (?), 8" active, approx. $1500/pair. Have you heard or used them? Are they worth a look? Thanks, JT
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The vintage Walsh speakers were notoriously unreliable and had serious problems in terms of driver behavior and coherence across the frequency range. From what I understand the newer ones have shifted away from being FR single driver based to a design a little bit more like a Shahinian with a separate tweeter that points between you and the ceiling. Still, there's a reason why these guys are vastly more expensive than Ohm speakers. The concept is sound, but the execution at bargain prices is maybe a bit lacking.
And this is supposed to mean something?
What I mean is, it's hard enough to make a FR driver that only has to radiate in one direction. 360 degrees is that much harder. Almost all the omnis on the market are two-ways that point cone drivers at the ceiling. Even MBL doesn't attempt FR from one driver. German Physiks has basically nailed what the Walsh driver was trying to do but at a very high cost.
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The vintage Walsh speakers were notoriously unreliable and had serious problems in terms of driver behavior and coherence across the frequency range. From what I understand the newer ones have shifted away from being FR single driver based to a design a little bit more like a Shahinian with a separate tweeter that points between you and the ceiling. Still, there's a reason why these guys are vastly more expensive than Ohm speakers. The concept is sound, but the execution at bargain prices is maybe a bit lacking.
And this is supposed to mean something?
What I mean is, it's hard enough to make a FR driver that only has to radiate in one direction. 360 degrees is that much harder. Almost all the omnis on the market are two-ways that point cone drivers at the ceiling. Even MBL doesn't attempt FR from one driver. German Physiks has basically nailed what the Walsh driver was trying to do but at a very high cost.
I don't think you really understood what I actually meant.
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In case the issue is not resolved, you should think about the ATC SCM 11 and SCM 7 monitors. They are the current iteration of ATC near field monitors. The first generation was designed for professional near field listening. I have a pair of passive 10s on my work table. I can't speak for the 11s, but the 10s are sensational in this application (as are the 7s, which my son uses). The 11s are just under $2000 and the 7s are just over $1000. The distributor (now previous distributor) Flat Earth Audio stopped carrying the line on July 1, but I've heard has some stock (can't say what) that might be had at a discount.
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for ATC, talk to Pat Keogh: https://www.facebook.com/34ShadyDrive (https://www.facebook.com/34ShadyDrive). a really cool guy and can hook you up.
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Not sure about availability in th US but Mission (British) make some brilliant bookshelf speakers. If you check out their website, you'll see the different ranges.