CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on March 05, 2014, 11:28:36 PM
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Two minute impression:
Shrill, ouch. AKG's version of the HD800 HD700 or maybe something in between.
To be continued.
- Real Non-BS Subjective Impressions of AKG K812 - Pre Measurement (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39078.html#msg39078)
- AKG K812 FR Measurements (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39080.html#msg39080)
- AKG K812 CSD Measurements (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39081.html#msg39081)
- Comparison of "technicalities" with HD600 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39467.html#msg39467)
- Verdict (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39083.html#msg39083)
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I guess a few of us lucked out and got super special not-that-shrill ones. Cuz HD700...? Yeah, that's not at all what I'm hearing here...
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Given the case of the K550, I do wonder.
I'm at the 10 minute mark - taking them off because I don't want to burn a hole in my eardrums. I am going through my set of marginal (not necessarily bad) recordings which other headphones do not have issues with.
Including a link to Tyll's article: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/akg-k812-professional-reference-headphone
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At least Tyll's measurements of the k801 show some consistency-- moral victory?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA3JUpQzOek
K812, why you brutalizing Marvey?
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I'm actually shocked. :-DD
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Subjective Impressions (pre-measurement)
OK here's the deal: how these will sound will be dependent upon the recording. The K812 remind me of the HD700 and K550. Allow me to explain. The K812 has an overall warmth. By that I mean there is a slight broad elevation centered over the high bass area. (I tend to isolate regions when I describe tonal characteristics). However there seems to be shrillness, harshness, a bit of glare, a bit sibilance - a sign of a peak in the lower treble area. Not too unlike the HD800, but it seems higher up and more peaky on the K550 K812.
The K812 is like in HD700 in the sense that with the right recording, it can take on a warmish tone. For example, k.d. Lang's All You Can Eat and Natalie Merchant's Tigerlity, two albums which are on the bassy and laid back side, sound pretty OK on the K812. With the wrong recording (and we are not necessarily talking about bad recordings either because these two I am amount to mention sound perfectly fine on my speakers and other headphones), the K812 can be grating in the treble. Examples of such "wrong" recordings are Talking Heads (200X? remaster) Naive Melody and Cassadee Pope's Not Over You.
Is the K812 as nasty as the HD700 when things are off? No, but the K812 can certainly be "difficult". I can also see lots of other folks not having an issue with the K812 because the broad high bass elevation can help mask the treble irregularities.
I've attached some screenshots of the spectrum analyzer when the snare drum hits on these tracks. The exception would be the Not Over You recording which was snapshot of a harmonic of Ms. Pope's voice. Note that on the two recordings which work well with the K812 (k.d lang and N. Merchant), the lower treble region around 7-8k is 5-10db more laid back than the tracks that don't (C. Pope and Talking Heads)
The K812 is like the K550 in the sense that it has the same kind of timbre and soft bass of the K550. It's sort of like an open K550, but with better technicalities in terms of resolving ability. Sadly, I don't think it offers that much more clarity.
P.S. One thing I did notice is that the K550 tends to fall apart at higher volumes. The treble peculiarities get worse.
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BTW, the K812 can be a great classical headphone for typical classical recordings (which as LFF has opined, tend to be too mid-centric).
See the spectrum analysis for Beethovens #6 when most of the instruments in the orchestra are blaring (see below). In fact, the bass warmth and elevated peaky lower treble actually enhances many classical recordings.
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AKG K812 Frequency Response Measurements
s/n 0021XX
Also, refer to Inner Fidelity measurements: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK812SN001130.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK812SN001130.pdf) which are largely consistent with the measurements here:
Small 2.5k peak
Higher 6-7 peak
Sharp 11k peak
Massive bass distortion
Distortion spike at 3.5k (Tyll's SN001130 unit seems to have its mid distortion plateau about 1kHz lower)
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AKG K812 CSD Measurements
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Do these have the same "plasticky" midrange timbre as the K701? I remember it messed up vocals and certain instruments on more than a few of my test tracks.
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Verdict:
Rather unimpressive for such an expensive headphone. Save your money.
- Lower treble spikes limit use of recordings. Treble seems to get worse when turning up the volume.
- Warmish high bass can be either good for bad.
- Soft spongy bass lacking articulation or impact compared to the best (a symptom of high distortion).
- Lacks ability to resolve micro-details from the best amps/DACs.
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Do these have the same "plasticky" midrange timbre as the K701? I remember it messed up vocals and certain instruments on more than a few of my test tracks.
No - they don't have that plasticky timbre of the K701. And I know exactly what you mean. K812 timbre is more like K550. As a side note: the K701's credit, I have found that the K701 can sound quite good when EQ'd though.
The harmonic distortion spike of the K812 at 3.5K (the 2nd harmonic which corresponds to the 7 peak) is problematic. We can EQ the K812 FR irregularities (which is linear distortion). Unfortunately, non-linear distortion (harmonic) cannot be corrected for with EQ.
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Ouch, but I felt such a can was coming from them. Since the Harman fiasco the only AKG cans I was able to enjoy were the K240s...
By all the reviews so far, it lead me to believe they were overpriced but at least decent. These measurements really wanna make me wanna listen to them. I can't imagine they weren't able to design something better. I strongly believe the target audience they were designed for will still like them.
As always, thanks for the measurements
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FR seems pretty decent, honestly. The peaks are not bad, and at worst equal the loudness of 100Hz. Very broad V shape like HD800s. The CSD could be better, but decay is fairly quick and there's no ringing at all. All the things that look like ridges are just the peaks falling.
The distortion is surprising, though. Still sounded good to me, but not as clean as HD800s.
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I have to wonder who this "anonymous benefactor" is... because these impressions seem pretty close to what a certain someone was saying about the K812, and I have to wonder if that certain someone got a particularly bad set. I've since heard three pairs---my original, the replacement I was sent (finally), and a pair I recommended a close friend of mine get---and none of them seemed to have quite the level of treble irregularities these (and that certain someone's) seem to have.
We've already seen how the K550 can sound like crap and then much better other times.
I bring this up, because honestly I think the K812 is one of the better flagships to be released in a while. Better than any of the T1s I've heard, better than the PS1000s, and certainly better than the HD700 in just about every respect I care to think of here. The two sets I've owned both seem pretty forgiving (yes, forgiving) of crappy recordings. I was even running them out of a cheap-o Walkman and my MacBook un-amped and felt they sounded pretty good. With an amp like the Black Diamond they got on really well in my opinion, but then I could imagine their not cooperating with some other amps.
Then again, I'm wondering if maybe I'm just not being as hyper critical as you guys are these days. For instance the Invicta DAC, Shure SE846, FitEar TG!334, Abyss (ie. "slow and smeared"), Liquid Gold, and now these... I've felt my experience didn't really jive with Purrin's or Anax's. Maybe I'm just not cut out to be a pirate.
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Maybe someone should buy a pack of dogie treats for it.
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Lower treble spikes and elevated upper bass? Sounds like the K3003i to me (which I somehow loved)...
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I think part of it is that I'm being hypercritical these days in terms of tonal balance. Given that my current crop of headphones are the Joe Magnum (which I also use EQ), the Abyss (modded), Paradox, HE-500 w/ jerg pads (and no - none of them sound the same) - and considering my two recent speaker projects, I've probably developed a very narrow range of tolerance for what I consider proper tonal balance. If there are any spikes/peaks I can stand, they absolutely need to be in the 9-11k region, and no more a than 3-4db elevation from what's just below it - a smooth transition. You also have to remember that I went to the extent of modding the Abyss which all other owners find just fine.
In the context of the treble "issues" of the K812, I don't want to run into another situation where I can only bear to listen to 60% of of what I have (as with any stock HD800, Maxvla's excepted). It's not like I'm screaming in pain with the recordings which don't work well with the K812, just that these recordings do tend to wear on me after several songs. And no, at this point in my "headphone journey", I'm not interested in continued forced listening to the K812 to accustom my ears to their peculiarities in the treble. I'm too jaded, I've lost all patience.
All that being said, JRMC just moved to the next playlist track "Clapton Chronicles, It's In The Way That You Use It", and I'm like going "WTF is up with that snare and even with the higher registers of Mr. Clapton's voice." Again, I just don't want to deal with this sh1t anymore, especially from a "TOTL" headphone.
And as I mentioned, the K812 starts to fall apart in the treble at higher volumes. I do know that I tend to listen louder than most people (but still not as loud as Anax.) So this could definitely be another factor. I also have a tendency (probably a bad one, again probably rediscovered from my recent resumption in speaker projects) to isolate bands (bass, mids, upper mids, treble) and listen for any issues. On a mental level, I'm not going to let the warm bass mask the treble issues.
To me, in terms of technicalities (resolution), this headphone seems to lie somewhere between the K550 and HD800; but more toward the HD800. That's pretty good, but still not good enough for $1499. Especially since it doesn't sound as clean as the other flagships.
If you asked me how I felt about them, I would squint my eyes and say "Well, they're OK. Some issues. I don't I think I can use them, but I think a lot of people would think they were pretty good." That's not TOTL. And no, the K812 is not nearly as bad as the HD700. The HD700 is very much a piece of sh1t; at least the three I've heard.
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The upper mid to treble non-linear distortion seems particularly high in this pair. Specially for a TOTL can.
IMO AKG should proly start working on a more laid-back set of cans. They already have an analytic deal with some of their previous offerings anyway.
Also, didn't know JRMC was that cool (DSP Studio)... p:3
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And yes, better than the T1s and better than the PS1000s. But those two are hardly worthy of being called TOTL, especially the T1 (depending on which chocolate you get can be either decent/good or a piece). The PS1000 I'm more willing to give a pass on because I used two layers of TP over the driver to reduce the treble; and also because it's so obviously voiced to be a certain way.
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From your descriptions, this sounds like the AKG version of the Sennheiser hd518 but 20x the price LOL
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I have to wonder who this "anonymous benefactor" is... because these impressions seem pretty close to what a certain someone was saying about the K812, and I have to wonder if that certain someone got a particularly bad set. I've since heard three pairs---my original, the replacement I was sent (finally), and a pair I recommended a close friend of mine get---and none of them seemed to have quite the level of treble irregularities these (and that certain someone's) seem to have.
Then again, I'm wondering if maybe I'm just not being as hyper critical as you guys are these days.
IIRC, Tyll's measurements looked consistent between a couple pairs, so I doubt product variation is a huge factor here. I would not be surprised if it's a mix of both...slight product variation, and varying degrees of personal preferences and patience with certain sound issues.
And no, at this point in my "headphone journey", I'm not interested in continued forced listening to the K812 to accustom my ears to their peculiarities in the treble. I'm too jaded, I've lost all patience.
And as I mentioned, the K812 starts to fall apart in the treble at higher volumes. I do know that I tend to listen louder than most people (but still not as loud as Anax.) So this could definitely be another factor. I also have a tendency (probably a bad one, again probably rediscovered from my recent resumption in speaker projects) to isolate bands (bass, mids, upper mids, treble) and listen for any issues. On a mental level, I'm not going to let the warm bass mask the treble issues.
Excellent points. I feel the same way about many headphones in general.
I really need to figure out how loudly I listen compared to others...I feel like I have to be up there.
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For example, I tend to listen 15-20db quieter than most people around me. Therefore, I don't like headphones that tend to sound better at higher volumes while lacking at lower volumes (orthos) that much. I even heard electrostatic headphones that started to loose their magic at low levels where HD800s still shine.
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I understand that we have different tolerances to things. If anything, these days I'm less tolerant of treble irregularities than I've ever been: the stock HD800 and even the stock Abyss bother me in that respect despite having a number of other good factors. All that aside however, I like to think I can still use other headphones as a reference point to convey how I hear the balance of one versus another. The three pairs of K812 I've heard never seemed to exhibit treble issues nearing the level of the HD700. I also found the K812 to be rather amenable to just about any recording I tossed its way; on poor recordings it never gave me treble razors like the K550 or HD700 or HD800. Granted I don't think the treble is laid back by any means, but I found myself relatively fatigue free whereas the Abyss or HD800 (and especially the HD700) would have literally induced a headache.
I'd also say I'm pretty jaded these days. In fact I'm sick of headphones by and large and want to move to speakers as quickly as I can, circumstances permitting. I cite the T1 and HD700 precisely because they're middling products. To me the K812 stands out as one of the better new releases I've heard in dynamic headphones. I don't want people to get the idea that I'm just being more tolerant of crap so much as I genuinely feel the K812 is enough to make a jaded pirate (well, me) excited.
I will adamantly dispute any calls for the K812 to walk the plank just based on my own experience. I'd also point out that a lot of the negative impressions of the K812 I've read do seem to be coming from the same unit(s). Maybe I lucked out and got one of the good units. Maybe I'm just full of shit. At the very least though, that should tell folks they need to hear the K812 if they get the chance.
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In fact I'm sick of headphones by and large and want to move to speakers as quickly as I can, circumstances permitting.
You mean... like quitting this (headphone) hobby forever?
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Oh no, the K812 treble is not anywhere as bad as the HD700 or K550 (bad sample). With those two headphones, the treble could be painful - "razors". However, I do find the K812 treble difficult to deal with after 5-10 minutes with more marginal recordings which otherwise perform fine on better behaved headphones.
As far as the walk the plank2 assessment . I'm sticking with that. $1499 or whatever AKG is charging in unacceptable for that kind of performance (or product variation if such is the case.) This should be a $399 headphone, and even then AKG could still make money. If anything HF has done for the "community", it's to help escalate prices to completely absurd levels. I simply consider headphones like the HE-500+jerg pads and Slants to be better for far less money.
High-end smartphones like the iPhone have gotten slightly cheaper with more processing power, better responsiveness, better screens, etc. Headphones seem to have quadrupled in price with the same ol' same ol' (some things better, some things worse).
To put things in perspective, I would give the H800 (stock) this rating:
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQLa-FLUE-GQniAa53Z2gAQKO6kZ_n7FMZIbkBCgsdukXd7bI)
and I've called the HD800 a facetweeter, a term coined, by RD many a times.
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1499 Dollars?
I can believe that the K812 sounds pleasant for some people but the price is too high. For the HD800 at the time I could understand the price but the K812 right now also competes with its own siblings. 1499 Dollars p:8
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Here are the impulse responses (phase is inverted)
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Thanks Marv, nice to see another set of measurements. headbang
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As far as the walk the plank2 assessment . I'm sticking with that. $1499 or whatever AKG is charging in unacceptable for that kind of performance (or product variation if such is the case.) This should be a $399 headphone, and even then AKG could still make money. If anything HF has done for the "community", it's to help escalate prices to completely absurd levels. I simply consider headphones like the HE-500+jerg pads and Slants to be better for far less money.
Yup.
Though to be fair, the HE-500 is one of the few "better" headphones that comes even close to being priced correctly.
At least of the three razor blades mentioned, the K550 is somewhat forgivable at a $199 price point.
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And if you get "good" K550, like CEETEE's, it's actually quite nice.
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Or you mod (http://www.mediafire.com/view/pzbaqy8nuek1kkq/AKG%20K551%20modifications.pdf) them ;)
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From head-fi: http://www.head-fi.org/t/685339/akg-k812-pro/1725#post_10336590
"So in my opinion all the K812's that i heard(over 15 Models with serial numbers between 1260-1390) Sounds the Same!
An my own BABYS sounds Great with no DIFFERENCES in the sound!
REGARDS NOMAX"
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Another review suggesting that there is definitely something wrong with K812s... http://www.head-fi.org/t/708755/akg-k812-serial-no-001106-headphones-review
"I even heard them ringing, yes, true. Was listen to Bach cello suites by Jean Guihen Queyras track no.1 in G Major .1.Prélude and at the very last part when cello takes that higher pitch, man, sszzinng happens for a second several times during play. I pick up HD800 and nothing there, putting K702 on, no, also nothing. Trying K812 again and yes, here we go, same place, same distortion, I checked 5 times to be sure of it."
"HD800 are less direct sounding, having very beautiful 3D presentation, without pushing the midsection. The level of detail is on pair with K812, but less shouting, it doesn’t jump out, if you like. The bass is deeper and less prominent, subtle midbass oomph is very acceptable. Voices are smooth and very delicate, all the time and with any record I tried. They are not neutral, certainly not the same tonality as K812, but this makes them sound more forgiving with many different music styles. Think of hard and heavy metal or electronica, they do them very well without making your ears cry."
That quite matches my opinion about HD800 (at least with the pair I own). Even though I can hear its ringing/excess energy in treble (and therefore trying to mod them), I would definitely not call them completely unforgiving... I can easily listen to whatever music I want - including the worst-recorded metal or dance music - as they are smooth-sounding on my setup. That said, I agree that it takes some work to establish the right synergy within your chain... And that there definitely are more forgiving headphones out there.
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I disagree basically point for point with that review and can't help but wonder wtf he did to them to deform the pads so badly in such a short time.
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If anything HF has done for the "community", it's to help escalate prices to completely absurd levels. I simply consider headphones like the HE-500+jerg pads and Slants to be better for far less money.
Here's to the Chinese not giving a fuck :)p5. HiFiMan fanboi for life.
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I disagree basically point for point with that review and can't help but wonder wtf he did to them to deform the pads so badly in such a short time.
I am surprised he even reviewed the K812. He once had a K1000 in his collection...
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I started to wonder when I realized my friend uses Decware amps, and how I thought mine sounded a little less lively on that amp compared to his.. I asked him to bring his K812 over, and we listened to both his and mine on the Black Diamond side-by-side. My suspicions were confirmed: the treble on his was sharper and more pronounced. On the Decware this resulted in my liking his K812 more, because it kind of counter balanced the more euphonic amp. On the Black Diamond however, it became clear to both of us that the treble was more fatiguing on his set.
I still wouldn't call it anything like the HD700, but it shows me that variation is there among K812s like with the K550. Wouldn't surprise me if some K812s were quite a bit more fatiguing subjective to some.
The K812 still wont be for everyone obviously, but I do encourage others to give it a try if the opportunity arises. I was talking to Don about them, and he told me he felt there were the best commercial dynamic he's ever heard (obviously modded dynamics don't count). Personally I'm a very happy camper with my K812 --- I dig it. Dunno if I'd be as happy with my friend's however. Like the SR-009, the fatigue sets in over time.
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Given the price tier of the K812 I have to wonder if this ostensible sample/quality variation might be minimized over time, as was allegedly the case with the K3003.
I didn't have a huge issue with the K812s from the Bay Area meet. It didn't wow me but I only spent a few minutes with it.
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This isn't particularly directed towards the 812 but what is up with product variations amongst some high end headphones. I always wanted to get Audeze's but the reports of wild variations between units has me scared to plunk down that kind of money. Same thing now with the 812? I would love to buy something like MF's 812 or the super LCD3. No way I am going to roll the dice and chance ending up with harsh treble (already got the HD800) or an annoying veil.
Why is it so difficult to produce a proper sounding high quality product worthy of a $1000+ price tag. There is no flagship that doesn't have some type of major deficiency.
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Well at least with the HD800 it's not from production variance. There is practically none.
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On the issue or product variance, it actually happens a lot with raw speaker drivers. Much of the time, the drivers don't even remotely match the specs. In my experience, only the "megabuck" speaker drivers costing $200+ have consistent quality that matches the specs (I'm thinking the Seas and ScanSpeak drivers mainly.)
In terms of the peaks of raw speaker drivers, it's not uncommon to see differences in the peaks of 5-8 db or see them vary in frequency a thousand hertz or so.
Frankly, I don't have confidence that AKG really gives a sh1t. This is what pisses me off about these headphone manufacturers. The K812 appears to be yet another one of these "me too" and "let's rip people off" entrants in the so called TOTL arena.
Even though Sennheiser's HD800's is bright to my ears, at least Senn seems to really care about quality (and this approach to quality even goes down to the HD600 and HD800). The HD800's driver response is fairly smooth, with the 5-6k peak (evidently caused by the cup) easily correctable with mods or EQ. One may not like the HD800's sound or looks, but when we examine the HD800, it's a fricking engineering marvel.
The K812? AKG throws in a cheap-ass headphone stand to make us feel better.
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How big is AKG? Does any headphone manufacturer other than beats have the supply chain and manufacturing expertise of senn?
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At least they didn't pull a beyer and decide to call it a day after creating a strong magnet and forget about basics like dampening.
I don't know, I think AKG made somewhat of an effort though it's certainly an overpriced one. From a technology standpoint it's kind of hard to one-up the ring transducer.
Resources shouldn't be much of an issue for AKG since they operate under Harman Group.
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Resources shouldn't be much of an issue for AKG since they operate under Harman Group.
Senn is privately held with focus on headphones and microphones.
Harmon is publicly traded mega-company which owns a zillion brands.
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hello,
i am also wondering about the whole TOTL headphone business.
i am rather new to this hobby. i started out with a pair of Shure 210 (not certain of the model number now) and moved on to Etymotic ER-4S's when the Shure's broke based on a review on iPod Lounge.
what i was looking for was portability, isolation and accuracy.
prior to that it was whatever SONY looked good at less than $100US.
i enjoy my AKG K550's but my hearing is far gone enough (especially at the high end) that i may not hear the problems other folks have.
the GYTW was gifted (by me) with the NAD HP-50 and LOVES them. she had perfect pitch as a player and can still hear only what the angels can.
many years ago in a galaxy far, far away, i lusted after STAX as in my (teenaged) mind they could be the best sound i could even aspire to own, discounting a Mac stack and a pair of Klipschorns i really wanted (even imagining how to afford the house i would need to put them in.)
it appears to me that at this point i have stumbled into yet another situation where the makers are pushing prices that have no relationship to performance, just to boast a high MSRP.
Tyll is spot on with his piece on Inner Fidelity that head-fi is a distorted market.
you kids out there (get off my lawn!) are spending tons of money on fashion accessories that appear to be headphones. but the head-fi market seems to be the providence of makers who are pushing prices to make their products as unattainable as those STAX were when i had all those spots.
is there a sweet spot in this hobby? is there an ultimate set of cans (or collection of cans, DACs and amps) that one can aspire to without making a fool of oneself? or is it all subjective?
i find that my household is slowly acquiring a collection of mid level gears that allow us to enjoy the music we love when on-the-go, chilling away from the kids (or the parents) or working in the salt mines to make all that possible.
what is troubling is the seeming need of makers to market a $1kUS+ can so they can say "Hey, we have one too." regardless of its sonic value.
sample variation at this level of cost is unacceptable. when i buy a box of pocket matches at 50ct, i expect them all to light. if they don't, i try another brand.
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That said, I believe the K1000 went out of production sometime before the Harman acquisition and that model (to my recollection) did not suffer from particularly high sample variation. The K701 was released considerably post-Harman, and some might argue considerable fluctuation within each variant of the 700 series. AKG's gone through plenty of logistical changes since (e.g. the vast majority of 700 series production moving to China for instance) and they clearly have a healthy R&D budget given the stint for the K3003 and now this.
It's embarrassing that they can't tighten quality in a new $1500 "TOTL" headphone -- be it sonic fluctuations or simple things like making gimbals (?) that don't crack. With a HD 600 or HD 650 (barring the transition from dark grey to silver mesh) you could be relatively sure of consistency in both build and sound once you control for earpad wear.
Re: the above, barring a few models like the HE-500 and ESP950 nigh all high-end headphones are absurdly, inexcusably overpriced (especially Stax gear beyond Lambdas and a few Stax amps). At least with speakers you have tons of competing options that "punch above their price points", and if you're still unsatisfied you can just build your own.
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1499 for a headphone, a good headphone when you genuinely like it.
Unobtainable for consumers with a lower budget, status symbols for those with a high budget.
This strange competition in with prices apart from "we are part of the club too" is also a smart marketing move as consumers are assumed to think "very expensive, it must be good". Present thus position the value proposition in the right way and just wait for the stream of money...
It is not relevant whether the value proposition is better than anything else. What matters is that it gives the consumers the feeling that they are consuming the best they could have possibly purchased. Sometimes I thoroughly detest marketing...
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UPDATE: My initial listens were on the ECZD (with the older soybean caps, slightly tweaked, etc.). Just tried the K812 out with the ECP Black Diamond. The K812's treble is even more difficult. (This is not the fault of the ECP, the ECP is the simply the more honest amp and hardly one I would call strident or analytical).
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So here is my take on 'em:
Sound
I really like the bass these phones produce. I feel the low notes got more presence and overall better than my HD600s. The midrange was good. No obvious wonky stuff. The problem area for me is the upper mids and lower treble. It can be fairly glaring indeed. A quickie youboob Alizee track sort of brought that up to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx9TszWhkeQ
On the HD600 it's not too bad. On the AKG812 it can be a little painful. Tamborine recordings are perhaps best avoided when rocking with these cans. Other than that I liked what I heard. Wojciech Kilar's "Love Song For A Vampire" (and many others) was plenty nice w the AKGs.
Comfort
The metalish frame maybe a bit heavier than most other stuff I got here and there, but not too bad.
Presentation
They look really nice.
Price
Price sucks.
Overall
Fixing the high mids and lower treble issue would yield a Not sh1t thumbs up... but the price would still suck.
Measurements
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5898;image)
CSD Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5900;image)
CSD Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5902;image)
Distortion Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5904;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5906;image)
Not certain, but from the results above perhaps the reason for the perceived upper mids and lower treble problem is the non-linear distortion in that region peaking at around 3.5 kHz.
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Comparo with HD600 (yellow)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5853;image)
Comparo with AKG702 (blue)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5855;image)
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Is it me or is the HD600 flatter in the treble? :o
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Yeah, the AKG812 seems a bit of a bumpy ride there. But subjectively, to me the problem was with certain instruments (like the tamborine) mostly. Vocals where IMO pretty good.
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I'm going to offer a counter-perspective once again.
I just don't get pissed off when I see the K812 in relation to everything else on the market. It's a headphone, I really like the way it sounds, and beyond the initial crack issue (WTF?) I haven't had any buyer's regret. I'm actually with Don in thinking the K812 is one of the best stock dynamics I've heard.
Before people throw the K812 under a bus completely, I think it's worth it to see how mods might even out the treble for some people. I've been talking to Don, and he thinks it's most certainly a possibility, and I might get a second K812 just to see what he can do compared to the stock version.
Also the headphone stand is nice. This isn't a Mr Speakers throw-away stand. It's an Omega stand that cleverly (to my mind) replaces the foam / cardboard pack-in space and helps support the headphones during transit. Most flagships --- far more expensive and IMO crappier ones --- would just leave the foam and cardboard there. Now you get something functional that actually works. I've used the stand and appreciate it being there.
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The presentation of the K812 is flawless IMO. The stand is really nice too.
As far as sound quality (stock), it isn't perfect, but I agree it does some things very well. The bass is one of the best I heard from an open dynamic. Later I took a look at their website, and it seems they use a relatively large 53mm diaphragm. Dunno, perhaps this brings sonic trade offs.
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The presentation of the K812 is flawless IMO. The stand is really nice too.
As far as sound quality (stock), it isn't perfect, but I agree it does some things very well. The bass is one of the best I heard from an open dynamic. Later I took a look at their website, and it seems they use a relatively large 53mm diaphragm. Dunno, perhaps this brings sonic trade offs.
I took a listen to the playlist you posted, and I'm not hearing anything too problematic with my K812. For instance tambourines sound fine. Or rather, they sound like they do IRL to me. The biggest issue to my ears is the sibilance on her voice from time to time, but nothing beyond what I'd expect. Maybe you can take a listen through my K812s yourself and check if you hear any improvement.
I'm starting to think this pair has a bit more midbass than my last pair, but that could be my imagination from all this talk of product variation. Once you're convinced differences exist, you start to hear things.
If you have access to Marv's Sony X Walkman, maybe try your set on it? I think a lot of headphones these days are actually voiced to sound better WITHOUT high-end amplification. Sounds crazy I know, but eh.
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MF, why don't you send your pair in for measurements? It would certainly solve the product variance question (unless your serial is very close to this one).
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Ultrabike's measurements sure look a ton better than Tyll's and Marv's. Especially the distortion.
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Yea it looks sorta ruler flat on Ultrabike's. I wouldn't have guessed it'd have treble problems at all with those measurements. But also with the same measurements I'd be inclined to get an HD600 at 300-400usd over the AKG as well.
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I took a listen to the playlist you posted, and I'm not hearing anything too problematic with my K812. For instance tambourines sound fine. Or rather, they sound like they do IRL to me. The biggest issue to my ears is the sibilance on her voice from time to time, but nothing beyond what I'd expect. Maybe you can take a listen through my K812s yourself and check if you hear any improvement.
I'm starting to think this pair has a bit more midbass than my last pair, but that could be my imagination from all this talk of product variation. Once you're convinced differences exist, you start to hear things.
If you have access to Marv's Sony X Walkman, maybe try your set on it? I think a lot of headphones these days are actually voiced to sound better WITHOUT high-end amplification. Sounds crazy I know, but eh.
I wouldn't mind at all to take a listen to a better set of K812. I also agree that one of the problems w the Alizee deal was a little bit of sibilance. This was a quick tamborine track I tried:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZojpkpF7j24
I also agree that these cans are better than most stuff out there.
Ultrabike's measurements sure look a ton better than Tyll's and Marv's. Especially the distortion.
I'll do some fire tests at 100 dB with both cans (HD600 & K812) tonite.
Yea it looks sorta ruler flat on Ultrabike's. I wouldn't have guessed it'd have treble problems at all with those measurements. But also with the same measurements I'd be inclined to get an HD600 at 300-400usd over the AKG as well.
Yes, the balance seems quite good actually. The only thing I can think off for the occasional issues is the higher distortion in the lower treble region.
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LOL (to the whole thread), sorry.
It was so depressing and entertaining at the same time. esp the earliest pages.
(hurray for the outspokenness of the pirates and a bottle of rum).
To say thank you to all (for everything), I will share with you a very sweet and hot tip: Take your ESP-950 down (from the shelf) and listen to it with a 5-6 dB reduced level around 1 kHz, the broadness of which should be some 1½ up to 2 octaves (depending on your tastes), and also turn the level of the bass slightly up. (do what you want with the treble, personally I do nothing )
Now, you say, who would care what an obscure fellow (of utterly negligible fame) says about improving some phones through EQ-ing? I agree completely. Who would care? Indeed! However, this is different!
Not only will the sound from these cans suddenly seem much less muddled, but one will easily achieve a certain kind of highly sought after "canvas of sound" on with big and small details seem to be painted in good proportion to each other, and with all the delicacy, color and depth one could want. A kind of sound it is easy to get lost in ( in a good way, I hasten to add). Combined with their famous low weight and top-notch comfort, it is difficult to think of anything better (at least for classical and stuff).
Btw, I use it with transformer step-up units, but it is not essential for getting a good result.
A few words about the need for precision in EQ-ing. Achieving perfect flatness of response is a great thing! Fantastic and gobsmacking etc. But one does not really need it. Recordings are all over the place, so are our ears.
Take a big collection of records. I use to think of the individual records and their tonal balance as represented by stars in a globular cluster. If you have a frequency response from your headphones which most people would tell you was flat, this would make perhaps 60 percent or the recordings in the collection sound very well balanced ( Since we do not notice small deviations. Only perhaps some 2-3 % would be really close to the ideal in absolute terms). Now think of these 60% of recordings as stars being inside an imaginary circle drawn on the globular cluster with its center in the middle of the cluster (never mind the black hole in there somewhere). Now take a slightly less perfect EQ-ed headphone. To represent it you will have to move the circle a few light years in some direction, say for example to the right. It turns out that millions(!) of stars that previously were outside the circle on the right side now have miraculously turned up inside it! Of course, an ever bigger number of stars are lost on the left side, since that area is closer to the more heavily populated central region, but still! As a result, say that now perhaps 58% of the recordings will sound well-balanced instead of 60. Only a couple of % less, big deal! (Still a star performance so to speak). And the nearest 15-20% will sound quite OK anyway. The cirle would probably be somewhat deformed (in real life), but I left that out, for simplicity.
I have also looked away from the distribution of cosmic dust in the cluster. Only with LP records dust might become an issue, I think.....
Well, this is the truth about EQ-ing, in astronomical terms and as I see it. I have written this because I think that many are afraid of getting lost in EQ, not having access to measuring instruments and such. But don't be afraid! Any move in the right direction is a good move. If you could live with a bad result, you can always live with a better result.
So, in the case of the ESP-950, if you turn the level at 1 kHz down 5 instead of 6 dB, it does not really matter. Seriously.
Cheers, Olaf
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Yup, EQ can help with some problems.
So here are the distortion results for 100 dB case with the AKG812s and HD600s
AKG812
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5908;image)
HD600
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5896;image)
It seems the AKG812 have cleaner upper bass. The HD600 seem to have cleaner high mids and treble. While the AKG seems to have a tad more presence (< 5dB) in the 4.5 to 12 kHz region in my rig, both cans seem to be tuned similarly.
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So... in the end it appears the good old HD600 was already close to the newly discovered Olive-Welti target ?
Assuming the K812 is close to the O-W target of course.
This means a headphone should measure as flat as possible (after the needed corrections) and not have lifted bass or rolled-off treble.
Based on my own observations, that a 'flat' measuring headphone sounds the most realistic, this doesn't come as a surprise for me.
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So... in the end it appears the good old HD600 was already close to the newly discovered Olive-Welti target ?
Assuming the K812 is close to the O-W target of course.
Only if you consider 5db from 5kHz - 12kHz "close".
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Hm, yeah, with the extra harmonic distortion and more elevated, less smooth treble of the K812 vs HD600 (kinda hard to tell with that scale), I could see the K812 being problematic for some people.
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A few words about the need for precision in EQ-ing. Achieving perfect flatness of response is a great thing! Fantastic and gobsmacking etc. But one does not really need it. Recordings are all over the place, so are our ears.
Well, this is the truth about EQ-ing, in astronomical terms and as I see it. I have written this because I think that many are afraid of getting lost in EQ, not having access to measuring instruments and such. But don't be afraid! Any move in the right direction is a good move. If you could live with a bad result, you can always live with a better result.
Cheers, Olaf
I'm glad someone brought up the subject of EQ. I've secretly been using parametric EQ for quite a while now. My preference has generally been to do quick mods / fixes first, and then finish off with EQ.
Keeping in mind that EQ can fix linear distortion (FR), but it can't fix non-linear distortion. In some cases, non-linear distortion can be made worse by EQ (for example, increasing bass for a headphone which rolls off quite a bit.) EQ can fix a lot, but it cannot fix everything. It's best that one starts off with a good headphone to being with.
While my Abyss is out on tour, I'm using my Joe Magnums and running slight EQ. And for the 1000000 time, the slight downward slope is NOT the Olive-Welti curve.
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The OW curve is basically JBL's synthesis demo room with a touch higher bass and a tad lower treble. That doesn't necessarily mean tilt (as you correctly pointed out for the 1M time, Marv). As measured at the eardrum it looks like what Tyll posted in his article. As measured on the gear we're seeing measurements from on this site? Who knows what that looks like. I have no idea if we need a mids hump or a 7kHz trough, or what have you.
The two biggest deterrents for me with the K812 (which I haven't heard) are price and Mupps saying it's too easy to listen loud. I'm a quiet listener and want to preserve my hearing.
As it stands, I have tuned the EQ for my other cans to closely match the curve and I love it. It still needs a few tweaks, but it's really good.
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The OW curve is basically JBL's synthesis demo room with a touch higher bass and a tad lower treble.
I thought the O-W curve was a reference curve according to their particular measurement rig (head, canal, mic at eardrum, et. al) which represented a perceptual 10db downward tilt (roughly) from 20 to 20k.
I didn't know that in 2013, O-W invented an ideal FR curve that people in audio engineering have known about since the 1920s. I mean, sh1t, you can go into the various recording or studio forums and find this stuff out on how to EQ speakers with an RTA for perceptual flat. Even the car audio guys with the RTAs, back in the heyday of car audio, knew about this.
Heck even B&K provided their own reference curve. I like this one a lot. Flat to 100Hz. 4.5db rolloff by 10kHz. 5.5 by 20kHz.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/rrt8yd.jpg)
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Corrected measurements (due to calibration issues):
1) http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39235.html#msg39235 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39235.html#msg39235)
2) http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39288.html#msg39288 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39288.html#msg39288)
Only if you consider 5db from 5kHz - 12kHz "close".
The AKG certainly sounded a little hotter and harsher to me (DT990 still takes the cake). Here is a little closer look using the latest AKG measurements (red-K812 / yellow-HD600):
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5912;image)
As in the previous measurements, the channel imbalance in the treble region (right louder) was present in this second set of measurements for these particular cans:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1482.0;attach=5898;image)
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This is the same set Marv measured?
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Yes. But a little different rig. My current rig is more alike to Marv's previous rig. Mine tends to show a little more upper treble energy.
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The OW curve is basically JBL's synthesis demo room with a touch higher bass and a tad lower treble.
I thought the O-W curve was a reference curve according to their particular measurement rig (head, canal, mic at eardrum, et. al) which represented a perceptual 10db downward tilt (roughly) from 20 to 20k.
I didn't know that in 2013, O-W invented an ideal FR curve that people in audio engineering have known about since the 1920s. I mean, sh1t, you can go into the various recording or studio forums and find this stuff out on how to EQ speakers with an RTA for perceptual flat. Even the car audio guys with the RTAs, back in the heyday of car audio, knew about this.
Heck even B&K provided their own reference curve. I like this one a lot. Flat to 100Hz. 4.5db rolloff by 10kHz. 5.5 by 20kHz.
(http://i47.tinypic.com/rrt8yd.jpg)
I thought that particular curve (C-weighting filter) was for moving small venue speakers into a larger venue.
Anyway, they drew up the curve with their particular gear tuned to JBL's room (as measured at their gear's eardrum) and then let users fiddle with tone control knobs. They then drew their own tweaks based on the assumptions drawn from what they saw the users preferring and found that they scored higher user preference percentages on a curve-tuned set of HD518's than an uncompensated set of HD800's or LCD-2v2's.
I guess the real take-away here is that good tone is more preferred than detail retrieval. Sounds right to me.
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To certain extent. An almost ideal FR coupled with high distortion, extremely weird timbre, or lacking in other technicalities isn't a good thing either. Then again it's priorities. At a recent micro-meet of mine, someone brought a prototype ortho. It had very good tonal response (probably more bit laid back than I would have preferred). But it was closed sounding as heck and all muffled. I even remarked that it sounded "closed-in" even for a "closed" headphone, even though it really was an open headphone. People thought that was pretty funny.
But the person who brought it thought it was the bee-knees and should be priced at Audeze levels because the tonal response was more accurate than the Audezes, which do tend to be shelved in the treble. Most of us there, including myself, pretty much did the ::) thing.
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If FR is the biggest thing in the world to someone, then why not just buy the cheapest phone you can get your hands on and just EQ? This hobby and discussion is completely pointless for such people. The reason people don't is because in the end FR isn't, and people are just deluded to think that it is. It's just the easiest thing for people to listen for when ABing gear/music but it's not what keeps them involved and immersed in the music. Who goes to a concert and has an eargasm because they think to themselves, 'oh gawd, the FR is so perfectly balanced!' Nobody I know. It is important, but it's just one of many parts.
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For sure. I think those points are why AKG was bold enough to price the K812 where they did... because it has those other qualities that make going back to an HD600 seem so dull, even if the tonality is considered superior on the HD600.
Anyway, I do wonder what the K812's waterfall looks like as well. Something tells me it'll have some claws. Or did I totally miss that chart?
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Just moderate claws: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39081.html#msg39081
I'll get Ultra to loan me his HD600. I am curious how the K812 compares to it in aspects other than FR.
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For sure. I think those points are why AKG was bold enough to price the K812 where they did... because it has those other qualities that make going back to an HD600 seem so dull, even if the tonality is considered superior on the HD600.
OK following up on that comparing the "technicalities" of the K812 and the HD600. I had Ultrabike bring his HD600 over tonight. Will be succinct:
- HD600 bass is more muddy than K812. HD600 bass sounds slower.
- K812 has lower bass extension.
- K812 does sound soft and compressed. HD600 hits harder and with more impact. Better attacks and less compression with the HD600.
- HD600 resolves plankton way way better than K812. This isn't even funny. The K812 simply drops off huge amounts of low level information in tracks such as the Eagles Live Hotel CA, Pixies Brick is Red. Pretty much on every track, little details such as string decay, ambient cues, tape noise, etc. All gone on the K812.
So in summary, the K812 (at least this one) has worse frequency response than the HD600, does not resolve microdetail as well as the HD600, sounds more compressed than the HD600, but has faster sounding and more extended bass than the HD600. Sounds like a mid-fi headphone to me worth no more than $350.
Let's keep in mind that most people still do not recognize what a good headphone the HD600 truly is.
P.S. K812 stage is wider than HD600 with a sometimes hole in the middle effect. The HD600 stage is more compact with without any gaps and good center imaging. Depth is rather poor on both headphones.
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Let's keep in mind that most people still do not recognize what a good headphone the HD600 truly is.
Do not recognize, or have forgotten? It was one of the most popular and well-respected headphones about a decade ago, unfortunately overshadowed by its bigger and tonally-daft brother (650).
I'm surprised that the resolution of the K812 was subpar, but not really surprised. The one I listened to didn't immediately strike me as particularly resolving. I thought the K3003 was pretty resolving though (maybe due to the lower treble spike).
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Gave my HD600 the night on the job last night. Listened to some music, watched some TV, looked at some youtube, etc. It certainly sounds good, but I still have problems with the soundstage feeling claustrophobic. It's a little slower and smoother than I'd like and not terribly detailed, IMO. I'd rate the K812 a tier or two higher than the HD600 for sure.
By the end of the night the sides of my head were pretty sore, so there's my main beef with the HD600s. For short stints they are fairly comfy, but longer than an hour and I am consciously aware of them being on my head every second. Conversely my HD800s I can wear for hours and forget I have them on. I only tried the K812 for about 20-30 minutes, but I would guess they would be inbetween, but closer to HD800s in comfort.
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Dunno. Marv had a good "Hotel California" recording playing to test plankton (background, detail, and ambiance) retrieval. This particular K812 went blank on some of the more critical sections of the track, while the particular HD600 did a fairly good job. It could be the somewhat rougher treble FR of the AKGs, their somewhat higher nonlinear distortion in the lower treble, the current global warming situation, or all of the above, but it certainly felt like this particular AKG struggled with microdetail.
Bass is IMO more extended and cleaner on the K812 though.
I have a somewhat narrow head, so no comfy problems with neither set of cans.
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It's a little slower and smoother than I'd like and not terribly detailed, IMO. I'd rate the K812 a tier or two higher than the HD600 for sure.
Do a direct comparison, and with a resolving amp. I thought from memory that the K812 would be better than the HD600 in terms of retrieval of low-level information, but it wasn't. It wasn't even close. I don't disagree the HD600 stage width is narrow. I'm really surprised you didn't find any hole-in-middle issues with the K812.
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It's a little slower and smoother than I'd like and not terribly detailed, IMO. I'd rate the K812 a tier or two higher than the HD600 for sure.
Do a direct comparison, and with a resolving amp. I thought from memory that the K812 would be better than the HD600 in terms of retrieval of low-level information, but it wasn't. It wasn't even close. I don't disagree the HD600 stage width is narrow. I'm really surprised you didn't find any hole-in-middle issues with the K812.
Can't direct compare unfortunately. I only heard them at a meet a couple months ago. K812 has decent center, but as I said initially it doesn't come close to HD800 soundstage coherence. I felt that if the K812 had angled drivers like the HD800 they would be quite close overall.
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I think where AKG did well with the 812 is the bass performance and wider SS that's more open and spacious. I can see why people using the HD800 with a crappy amp/source would prefer the 812 and consider it a competitor. Plus if you listen at low volume, troubling peaks tend to get mitigated a bit. Shame they aren't more reasonably priced.
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I'm really surprised you didn't find any hole-in-middle issues with the K812.
Was that not also an issue with the K701?
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I never really had any serious staging issues with the K701.
The K812 is a little different for me because the drivers are essentially suspended in air surrounded by a mesh (similar to HD800) away from the ears. It's too bad AKG didn't suspend them slightly angled and in front of the ears like the HD800.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the K812 does have a similar open and diffuse effect (probably overly diffuse for some people) as the HD800. Unfortunately because the drivers aren't angled and in front, but rather very far off to the sides, I get this really super-wide diffuse stage which causes a hole-in-the-middle effect. Some recordings sound like it's out of phase / out of my head, or how OB speakers set up way to close to the back walls.
Normally, I don't notice these kinds of things because I don't have any kind of staging expectations for headphones (unless a headphone just sounds way too closed in), so I hate to sort of pull of a "maxvla"
:)p13
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p:0
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So here is my take on 'em:
Sound
I really like the bass these phones produce. I feel the low notes got more presence and overall better than my HD600s. The midrange was good. No obvious wonky stuff. The problem area for me is the upper mids and lower treble. It can be fairly glaring indeed. A quickie youboob Alizee track sort of brought that up to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx9TszWhkeQ
On the HD600 it's not too bad. On the AKG812 it can be a little painful. Tamborine recordings are perhaps best avoided when rocking with these cans. Other than that I liked what I heard. Wojciech Kilar's "Love Song For A Vampire" (and many others) was plenty nice w the AKGs.
That is an album with shrill treble from Hell, ..an abortion of a recording, mixing and mastering job. No top headphones having fully present treble will sound good when playing this album.
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That is an album with shrill treble from Hell, ..an abortion of a recording, mixing and mastering job. No top headphones having fully present treble will sound good when playing this album.
1-Please introduce yourself in the appropriate thread and read our charter before posting anymore. Thanks.
2-Please review your post formatting so it's more clear and comprehensible in future.
3-Critical listening and analysis of audio gear is not dependent on perfect recordings. As matter of fact, the opposite is often true.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2.msg2.html#msg2
4-The 812 is an astonishingly deafening phone in the sibilance zones at moderate to loud SPLs. While that youtube track has flaws, it is not troublesome to the point of permanent hearing loss on my speakers or other audio gear. The 812 is ferocious where it hurts (in treble and distortion) and has no excuses.
Tbh, as much razz as the HD700 gets from many here, the 812 sounded far worse to me based on my preferences.
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That is an album with shrill treble from Hell, ..an abortion of a recording, mixing and mastering job. No top headphones having fully present treble will sound good when playing this album
I suppose one could feed really old jazz and some old 50s to 60s music and things might be fine with the 812 ... since there is no significant treble on those. Modern jazz is out of the question.
Poorly recorded music tend to offend faster on offending headphones (depending on the issues). It may take longer otherwise to properly asses an overpriced POS like this (maybe not a POS if it was like $150). The treble issues with well recorded music would eventually have me storing these somewhere in the garage until sold.
Maybe you missed this, but I also heard the 812s against the 600s using a well mastered version of the "Hotel California" by the Eagles and others at Marv's before he released his impressions:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39467.html#msg39467
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39470.html#msg39470
The 600 in that comparo was mine BTW.
Indeed, detail retrieval was abysmal.
... and I like Alizee's song, though IMO she can't sing live and the mastering of her song is awful. Such is life.
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It's late so I'm not gonna read the whole topic; has anyone thought of measuring muppetFace's K812 to see if this is just really bad QC
It's just a shame to think that the first time AKG built a really nicely constructed headphone that it turned out to be irredeemably bad
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Your signature (at the time of me writing this) says it all. The industry is broken. I've dealt with Harman on a few things and I get the impression that one hand in the company doesn't take into account what the other is doing. They have strong financials and can make some cool products, but their head acoustic researchers only ever get their ideas into the speakers while the headphone people don't care. It's messed up.
BTW, their speakers are getting better all the time. Ever heard Revel Ultima or Performa series or, on the low end, JBL's new Studio 500 series? Friggin' amazing compared to 15 years ago.
Tyll is right in that the industry is having problems with headphone signatures and damping methodologies (such as no damping).
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I finally had the opportunity to listen briefly to the AKG K812. I own the Q701 and generally like the AKG sound so was interested to finally hear these.I work near the Harman Kardon "flagship" store in NYC. Unfortunately, this store did not have available for demo their "flagship" headphones for at least 6 weeks since I had first stopped by hoping to listen to them. The other week they finally had them in and one of the salespeople invited me over. All I had for a source was my Iphone 5s, but at least it had my personal test tracks albeit in compressed format. I asked if they could hook that up to an amp. The one salesperson said he could plug my Iphone into one of the H-K amps they had. He was clearly having some difficulty with this and finally another salesperson said "Oh, you can just use your phone; they will work fine." I didn't want to force the issue and was, in fact, interested in how they sounded out of a phone, but would have also like to hear them amped as well.
I generally liked what I heard on my brief listen. They did not seem particularly neutral to me, but that did not seem to necessarily be a bad thing. They definitely had way more bass than my Q701, to the point that I think they went from an underemphasis to an overemphasis. Not that I didn't like it, but it just didn't seem neutral to me. The salesperson said they were going for more of "fun" sound with these as opposed to the "classic" K/Q7xx line. While I don't think he really knew much of anything I did personally agree that it seemed like a more fun sound, which surprised me because I thought they were trying to go for a higher (and higher-priced) reference sound. In that respect though, I did see how maybe what they were trying to do was have a sort of HD800 sound with a little more warmth and less demands made with respect to upstream gear. I know from actual experience that the HD800 is pretty unlistenable from a smartphone. But my impression with the 812 is that while it would probably scale somewhat I was getting a decent enough sense of what these cans were about just from my phone.
The K/Q7xx line have a wide soundstage but it pretty much goes from far left to far right. I like it, but understand that others feel this is not natural. The K812 also had a very big soundstage but was very different. The best I could come up with was it was if I was wearing a large space helmet and the sound was being piped into the helmet and the sound was kind of all around me in a sort of globe shape around my head. Certainly a different and impressive (in the sense of making an impression, but not necessarily good) presentation. I am not sure if over time I would really dig it or just find it weird or fatiguing. But in my 20 minute or so listen I quite enjoyed the soundstage.
I did try a bunch of different tracks in different genres. I was surprised that I did not find the treble exceedingly bright even on test tracks that I find somewhat painful on my Q701. Given what I had read I thought some tracks would be unlistenable but I did not find that to be the case. Sonny Rollins' St. Thomas, one of his great tunes, is hard to listen to on the Q701, but did not bother me on the K812. Now maybe it had to do with the weak amping of my phone. Or maybe the increased bass let me listen at a lower volume so any bright treble was less noticeable. I didn't notice any distortion that others have noted, but I am probably not sophisticated enough in these things to pick up on it unless really egregious.
Comfort for me was less good than the Q701. I really like the auto-adjust on those and they fit my head really well. The K812 seemed a little loose and unsecure even on the tightest setting, and I don't feel like I have the smallest head either. Now, I was standing in a store. Perhaps, sitting in my home this would be a non-issue. And of course these are significantly heavier than my 701s.
Overall, I enjoyed my short listen. As much of an AKG fan as I am though I think I would have a hard time paying $1,500 for these. The store said I could purchase and have a no questions asked 30-day return if I was unsatisfied. But I would not feel good about that unless I was really serious. At $1,000 +/- I might have as I could see these as potentially being a worthwhile upgrade from my Q701 in that they still have the same large (but different) soundstage, while adding the warmth that was lacking in the Q701 (and which for certain genres was not a problem, but for others is).
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There's some evidence that K812s sounded different from each other. I still think I have the pair Tyll sent me stuffed in the back of the closet. Maybe I can ask Tyll if we have put that unit on the loaner program.
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Sure, go ahead. Hell, I forgot you even had them.
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Sure, go ahead. Hell, I forgot you even had them.
Cool. Please sign me up. Or will there be a separate thread in the loaner forum for that.
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I'd very much like this, when you get round to it. Thanks.
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Sure, go ahead. Hell, I forgot you even had them.
I forgot I had them too.
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I'd very much like this, when you get round to it. Thanks.
^^^^^
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see loaner section.
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I forgot I had them too.
Quite the memorable headphone, eh?
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Quite the memorable headphone, eh?
Does it really sound that lifeless?
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Does it really sound that lifeless?
Granted, I had a very short listen under very compromised conditions (see my prior post above), but really don't think the word "lifeless" applies to the sound. In fact, although there are undoubtedly main fair criticisms that have been leveled in this thread against the K812, I would be surprised if even the detractors thought it was "lifeless". IMO, the AKG K812 are designed to have a bit of a fun sound signature with both elevated bass and treble. The soundstage is wide, albeit kind of funky and may not be to everyone's tastes (I did not listen long enough to come to a firm conclusion for myself). To me those factors definitely make it lively. In contrast, I could see someone saying the very analytical K/Q7xx series is "liefeless", although I do not feel that way at all about my Q701. But the K812 is very different.
My impression in this thread is that with the possible exception of Anaxilus, who seems to think the excessive treble is eardrum piercing, the detractors think the K812 falls short in too many areas for the lofty price of $1,499 and might be considered decent to good at a lower price point. I do not want to speak for others so if people think this is a lifeless can then feel free to say so. But that characterization would greatly surprise me based on my short listen. But I can get not liking the sound signature and/or thinking these are way overpriced for a variety of reasons.
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That AKG headphones have a subtle tone to their sound signature is usually expected for the monitor and studio series.
I guess AKG "funned" up the sound of the K7xx-series or went the old route of going for the subtle V-shaped sound signature as they did with the K240DF. Thing is, when the drivers are not fully utilised with proper placement and construction the headphone will kind of flop.
1500 Dollars seems too much. Especially when you consider older headphones with big angled drivers like the Sony CD-series. Even the Philips SHP9000 has big angled drivers and sounds mighty impressive with Classical music.
Then again, I already thought 1500 Dollars was too much for the HD800 at its introduction. When a seventies Pioneer sounds just as good, keep the money.
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I would be surprised if even the detractors thought it was "lifeless".
I hated the 812 but lifelessness wasn't much of an issue for me. For lifelessness one would be hard pressed to beat an Oppo planar. Those have the musical soul of a Roomba.
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The measurements Marvey made look scary bad for an AKG headphone. As long as its sound signature is not too "peak" oriented it can still sound smooth but if that is not the case then AKG made a piece of poo
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Does it really sound that lifeless?
It was more screetching tenors and baritones from barbershop quartets that did in the 812s in for me. Never had I heard male voices been rendered like banshees.
And then there was missing information on the 812s which the HD600s seemed to have no problem reproducing.
I packed them in the box intending to ship back to Tyll. Found them in my closet a few days ago. We both forgot.
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It was more screetching tenors and baritones from barbershop quartets that did in the 812s in for me. Never had I heard male voices been rendered like banshees.
And then there was missing information on the 812s which the HD600s seemed to have no problem reproducing.
That's it exactly on both counts. For an HD800 killer it couldn't even beat an HD600/650 in resolution. The treble issues from the unit I heard were the worst I have ever heard in anything ever.
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That's it exactly on both counts. For an HD800 killer it couldn't even beat an HD600/650 in resolution. The treble issues from the unit I heard were the worst I have ever heard in anything ever.
facepalm, this is bad...
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Any particular tracks that people think exemplify the flaws in the AKG K812. Frankly, I am just not having the treble issues that some clearly are, but it could be a musical selection issue. I did listen to some of the tracks Tyll mentioned in his review as problematic and with the possible exception of the Pinback track (and even that was not too problematic for me) did not have issues. Keep in mind that I do not have a highly resolving DAC or amp so that may be actually benefiting me. I may perhaps also listen lower than others, although I don't think I listen as low as I probably should be doing. All in all so far I am hearing improvement in soundstage over my AKG Q701 and a much more balanced sound with smoother treble. For example, the great Somny Rollins track St. Thomas I find almost unlistenable on my Q701 due to piercing treble but it was fine and enjoyable on the K812.
Also, Amber Rubarth track "Novocaine" which is a binauraltrack I like to use for soundstage testing can be painful on the vocals on any of number of cans, but played very nicely with the K812 much to my surprise given what I had read in advance.
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Some test track notes:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39467.html#msg39467
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39470.html#msg39470
Did not try a direct comparo with the Q701 though.
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Received my K812 Last tuesday, gave them a few minutes of listening . I'm back to my headphone rig today , so I'm able to give more listening time ( 2 hours) to this K812 against my HD800 - Metrum Octave , Sonett Rig
Currently Using some Classical, Tech House, Funk-Jazz and Folks/singers
- Definitely Rough Treble. Not too bothersome for people who are not too sensitive in this area. I could easily live with that treble personaly. It Reminds me the best Ultrasone Trebles :)p13 but the issue is obvious to my ears. especially with strings.
- Something "Boomy"/ not clean enough in the Bass Area. More Noticeable with a Fiio X3 and Less with the Sonett. Despites specs, I think those headphones need a serious amp to control better bot bass and treble. HD800 bass is tighter but On some recordings it seems my HD800 give more bass quantity and sometimes less.
- Good overall Balance. A bit less bright than my (unmodded) HD800. This AKG tends to me very slightly Fun/V-shaped.
- The Soundstage is good . it shares some similarities with the HD800 as Marvey pointed before. Need more headtime to identify more precisely
- Lacks of Dynamics IMO. it sounds a bit soft/polite while a HD800 sucks me more in the Music. A kind of AKG Home Sound
- Extremely comfortable headphone but the clamp is too loose for my tastes.
Overally. I Like this Headphone way better than a Beyerdynamic T1 for example although I definitely think that the Beyer does many things better ( Soundstage precision, layering, dynamics, energy/impact) I could definitely live with it but I'm maybe not as picky as other pyrates ;)
I'll see if my mind change in the next weeks. the final buyer waits the headphone.
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Received my K812 Last tuesday, gave them a few minutes of listening . I'm back to my headphone rig today , so I'm able to give more listening time ( 2 hours) to this K812 against my HD800 - Metrum Octave , Sonett Rig
Currently Using some Classical, Tech House, Funk-Jazz and Folks/singers
- Definitely Rough Treble. Not too bothersome for people who are not too sensitive in this area. I could easily live with that treble personaly. It Reminds me the best Ultrasone Trebles :)p13 but the issue is obvious to my ears. especially with strings.
- Something "Boomy"/ not clean enough in the Bass Area. More Noticeable with a Fiio X3 and Less with the Sonett. Despites specs, I think those headphones need a serious amp to control better bot bass and treble. HD800 bass is tighter but On some recordings it seems my HD800 give more bass quantity and sometimes less.
- Good overall Balance. A bit less bright than my (unmodded) HD800. This AKG tends to me very slightly Fun/V-shaped.
- The Soundstage is good . it shares some similarities with the HD800 as Marvey pointed before. Need more headtime to identify more precisely
- Lacks of Dynamics IMO. it sounds a bit soft/polite while a HD800 sucks me more in the Music. A kind of AKG Home Sound
- Extremely comfortable headphone but the clamp is too loose for my tastes.
Overally. I Like this Headphone way better than a Beyerdynamic T1 for example although I definitely think that the Beyer does many things better ( Soundstage precision, layering, dynamics, energy/impact) I could definitely live with it but I'm maybe not as picky as other pyrates ;)
I'll see if my mind change in the next weeks. the final buyer waits the headphone.
I agree with most of what you wrote, but probably liked the K812 subjectively more than you did. I like it quite a lot and did not experience a lot of the problems that others have reported, although this could be due to relative insensitivity to treble issues; music selection; poor upstream gear actually hiding the 812's limitations rather than highlighting them; lack of good comparison (I don't have a high-end (well any for that matter) HD800 setup, although I have heard may such good setups over the years). In fact, I tried to track down some of the problematic tracks mentioned here an at IF and did not hear what the big deal was about. Again, I am willing to accept that could be my own limitations and I certainly accept that measurements seem to support a lot of what people ar efinding problematic in these cans.
Without a side-by-side comparison I am not certain whether I would prefer the K812 or the T1. I would likely prefer the K812 given its better IMO soundstage capabilities. However, a used T1 can be had for around $750 I think and a "good" price for a K812 is still $1,100 - 1,200. So, it is hard to justify the K812 between those two given the price differential. OTOH, the K812 is easy to drive and sounds surprisingly good out of even an Iphone, something that cannot be said for a T1 or an HD 800. I could be happy with the K812 out of my Marantz receiver and I am sure that would not be the case with either of the other cans.
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Marv, please feel free to send the K812 around as a loaner, just be sure, folks, to let me know where they are as they move. Thx.
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Marv, please feel free to send the K812 around as a loaner, just be sure, folks, to let me know where they are as they move. Thx.
Hey, Tyll. The K812 is already circulating as a loaner. It is on its way to Takato14 who should have it shortly. Not sure how many people are left but I think I was last person on east coast part of tour as I sent it off to the Midwest. Thanks for allowing this tour.
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Status of loaner: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1890.msg53388.html#msg53388
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Someone else concludes like me to the lack of dynamics of this K812 ? Someone did try it on different amps ?
It seems I need to crank up the volume all the time to try to find enjoyment and then the only thing I find is treble harshness. I'm currently listenin to Chick Corea's "the Vigil" and cymbals make me cringe a bit
Despite Bass and treble issues , the K812 is enjoyable but a bit boring/Too polite? . Nothing terribly wrong ( apart maybe those treble issues) but nothing really impressive . Definitely not worth 1500€ IMO. Thoughts ?
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Someone else concludes like me to the lack of dynamics of this K812 ? Someone did try it on different amps ?
It seems I need to crank up the volume all the time to try to find enjoyment and then the only thing I find is treble harshness. I'm currently listenin to Chick Corea's "the Vigil" and cymbals make me cringe a bit
Despite Bass and treble issues , the K812 is enjoyable but a bit boring/Too polite? . Nothing terribly wrong ( apart maybe those treble issues) but nothing really impressive . Definitely not worth 1500€ IMO. Thoughts ?
I think we hear the same.
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Someone else concludes like me to the lack of dynamics of this K812 ? Someone did try it on different amps ?It seems I need to crank up the volume all the time to try to find enjoyment and then the only thing I find is treble harshness.
Yeah, they really do need some extra gain to sound their best, though this is not necessarily an inherently bad thing. Lack of dynamics, conversely, is, and I noticed that as well. A little compressed sounding. I however did not find the highs harsh or unpleasant, not even with some of my most aggressive songs, just overly rough and piss-poor/low-fi sounding.
Despite Bass and treble issues , the K812 is enjoyable but a bit boring/Too polite? . Nothing terribly wrong ( apart maybe those treble issues) but nothing really impressive . Definitely not worth 1500€ IMO. Thoughts ?
This pretty much. Not a bad headphone, but unremarkable in just about every way. It's not that it's "too polite", which imo is impossible, but the resolving capabilities/micro-detail/timbre accuracy/realism that usually come with a headphone like this (HD800 or even HD600 and Q701) just aren't there.
Personally what I think happened is that either Harman horned in on AKG's project and ruined the product, or AKG went overboard (no pun intended) with all of the fancy metals and protein leather, causing the sound to take a backseat.
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Yep . Compressed. Thats what I said to a friend who owns the AKG.
it's like someone had decided to make a HD800 replica but more mass market oriented. weird. walk the plank
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Definitive impressions (compared to the HD800)
- A bit warmer with a more downward FR ( This K812 has a close to perfect balance IMO)
- Very good soundstage less wide and deep than the HD800 but as holographic. Imaging is not near as good as the HD800 though. Both soundstages share the same diffuse and laid-back nature.
- Bass are less clean and precise than the HD800. That contrbutes to the warmth but the shortcoming is a slight boominess. very slight. I'm nitpicking here bit Hey we're talking about a TOTL 1500€ headphone.
- More sub bass than the HD800 . I really like the K812 with Electronic music.
- Issues in the treble. sometimes it's really annoying/fatiguing, sometimes not so. Depends on recordings. Overally I have difficulties with this treble and my mild Tinnutus increased after K812 listening sessions.
- Serious lack of dynamics (macro and micro dynamics) so the K812 fails to suck me into the music compared to my Stax or my HD800. I always need to crank up the volume without finding What I look for except harsher trebl. Besides the treble it's the biggest flaw of the K812 imo.
- Lack of dynamics induce a serious lack of resolution. K812 didn't offer me the same "true to life" feeling and level of engagement than my HD800 or even the Stax SR404.
I used my Octave/Sonett Rig mostly.
Not a bad headphone overally but not in the same league than the HD800 or my Stax SR404 and too expensive for what it offers. This AKG would be a very recommandable headphone at 6/700€. I place it on par with the Beyerdynamic T1 although I much prefer the K812 for my personal tastes. I prefered the Ultrasone Edition 12 to both despite it's technically inferior and the Ultrasone is overpriced too.
Finally, I think that's a headphone for people who are focused on FR but forgiving about the lack of resolution and excitement and other more technical capabilities. This AKG has a kind of "Lounge" sound as we speak of lounge music. The perfect headphone for rich executives who are ready to spend lot of money in a classy headphone and who want to relax while they listen ambient music at low volumes directly from the HO of their macbook pro. I exxagerate but I hope that makes sense.
Not a bad headphone . Just Meh for people who are mad enough to look for an absolute sound quality.
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What a piece of shit. I even tried a couple quick mod experiments, and it always sounds like ass no matter what. (Though I must admit, stock, it didn't hurt my ears as much as I expected it to...)
Quick measurement take of the left channel. That's all I care to do, and even that I was dragging my feet on.
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Oh whao. It seems like the opposite problem from my LCD-2. I pushed the upper mids and upper treble too hard, but kept the ringing to a minimum.
This one is just like... too much ringing? I'm seeing resonance at... everywhere above 3KHz.
FR up to 2KHz looks good, though.
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Damn... look at that CSD mountain!
I couldn't stand the K812 when I heard them at the Harmon store. I only listened to them for a few minutes to be polite to the really nice salesman :P
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This had a somewhat similar level of brightness as your modded LCD-2, at least the version I heard, but the LCD-2 sounded a whole lot more cohesive, faster, detailed, etc. Similar problems, just one that is "bright" and the other which is "garbage."
This just sounds like weird ass. I guess it sounds more spacious than your LCD-2? Haha.
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Admittedly, to my ears, at both times I heard the K812, the resonance caused a bit of harsh... or grainy kind of sound? But the balance was actually quite close to "neutral", whatever "neutral" means.
Now it'd be good to see how HD600 measures by Hans. I'd bet... 3-4KHz spike, but we'll have to wait and see. :)p1
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I have a lot of HD600 measurements floating around here already, though with my older mic (will primarily affect response beyond the upper mids or so). It showed a 2-4KHz rise, but one that was still in line with the bass. Just stuck out to me too much, personally.
Edit: Link for your convenience. My new mic would probably raise that 2-4KHz area a touch more, smooth out that dip, and bring the rest of the treble up a bit. And probably make the bass look a bit better extended.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,987.msg44781.html#msg44781 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,987.msg44781.html#msg44781)
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Looks about right to my ears. Some of the most deafening/fatiguing treble I've ever heard. Couple that with mp3s that were claimed to supposedly be wav files by a certain Chinese vendor (not Hifiman) and it was just intolerable for me.
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My first preliminary impression on K812, in bullet points.
1) Diffused sound, which gives a big soundstage and sense of air.
2) The disadvantages of diffused sound are much less perceived detail, and it pretty much falls apart when a complex music is played.
3) Overall frequency response is very good, smooth and neutral.
4) There are some issues in treble area where it gives fatigue. After a while, my ears got used to it and I no longer have any difficulties, but this is certainly different with other people.
5) Overall, K812 works really well with very simple music (i.e female single vocal with one or two instruments) but really bad with complex music (i.e large classical)
6) It is not definitely worth it for 1400. With some reservations, I can say it is still probably the best-sounding AKG despite the flaw. But I may change my opinion on this. Still need to compare with K712 more.
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My first preliminary impression on K812, in bullet points.
1) Diffused sound, which gives a big soundstage and sense of air.
2) The disadvantages of diffused sound are much less perceived detail, and it pretty much falls apart when a complex music is played.
3) Overall frequency response is very good, smooth and neutral.
4) There are some issues in treble area where it gives fatigue. After a while, my ears got used to it and I no longer have any difficulties, but this is certainly different with other people.
5) Overall, K812 works really well with very simple music (i.e female single vocal with one or two instruments) but really bad with complex music (i.e large classical)
6) It is not definitely worth it for 1400. With some reservations, I can say it is still probably the best-sounding AKG despite the flaw. But I may change my opinion on this. Still need to compare with K712 more.
Nice impressions. Maybe I am not understanding what is meant by "diffusion" in a technical sense. The HD800 has huge soundstage yet no shortage of details. is HD800 not diffuse. Can you have big soundstage a la HD800 without diffusion. Or does HD800 simply have some other magic going on to counter adverse effects of diffusion as you describe them.
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Nice impressions. Maybe I am not understanding what is meant by "diffusion" in a technical sense. The HD800 has huge soundstage yet no shortage of details. is HD800 not diffuse. Can you have big soundstage a la HD800 without diffusion. Or does HD800 simply have some other magic going on to counter adverse effects of diffusion as you describe them.
Basically I cannot feel any define "body" of the sound coming out of the headphone. The sound is completely spread out.
For HD800... all I can say is it's magic indeed. Probably something to do with treble, but there are plenty of headphones with troublesome/harsh treble but small soundstage... so yeah. It's magic indeed.
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Nice impressions. Maybe I am not understanding what is meant by "diffusion" in a technical sense. The HD800 has huge soundstage yet no shortage of details. is HD800 not diffuse. Can you have big soundstage a la HD800 without diffusion. Or does HD800 simply have some other magic going on to counter adverse effects of diffusion as you describe them.
Personally, I describe diffusion as a lack of coherency to the sound. As you pointed out, the HD800 has a very large stage with lots of low-level resolving capability, but it also sounds diffuse. The K812 was the same for me, though minus the resolving capability (piece of shit) and a slightly less realistic transition from the width to the depth. Lets look at the construction of both headphones, as they have a few things in common.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/d/d4/500x1000px-LL-d45dbd9f_DSC_9652.jpeg) (http://cdn.head-fi.org/1/18/573x500px-18cd5005_hd800.jpg) (http://www.headfonia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/sennheiser_hd700_unboxing-0171.jpg)
The HD800 has a metal mesh surrounding the driver inside the earcup. It also has foam insert/dust covers inside the cup.
(http://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/akg/k812/D3S_1459-driver-1200.jpg)
The K812 also has metal mesh surrounding the driver, but no inserts. However, it also has a metal mesh directly covering the diaphragm; this is not true with the HD800, which simply has a silk screen to protect the diaphragm.
Here's what I suspect. As pointed out, both of these headphones have metal mesh surrounding the driver to resonate with. As we know thanks to Marv (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2208.msg61153.html#msg61153), the HD800 uses this to boost bass response, and I wouldn't be surprised if the K812 does the same. Unfortunately, doing this often incurs nasty side effects. When a specific frequency range begins to linger more than everything else, you start losing the sense of "togetherness" and coherency to the presentation due to certain timing information being lost in the haze. Measurements of the K812 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1482.msg39081.html#msg39081) and stock HD800 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,49.msg149.html#msg149) on this site show enough ringing to cause this.
Both headphones also have something between the driver and the listener's ear: The dust covers on the HD800 and the metal mesh over the K812's driver. This breaks up or "diffuses" the frontwave of the driver and in the K812's case, also serves as a type of dampening for the diaphragm. By the time the soundfront reaches your ear, it's been through materials which are not acoustically transparent (some to a greater degree than others), the result being a discombobulated wave of frequencies hitting your ears all at different times. This alters the timing of certain spatial cues in the recording and will make it more difficult to place an instrument in the soundscape. This factor is more in play on the K812 than the HD800, though, which is why the HD800 can sound better when the ringing caused by the metal mesh is quelled. The K812 might have similar potential, but removing the mesh will alter the dampening of the diaphragm, and will probably ruin the K812's good upper and lower range extension.
Just my 2 cents.
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Nice explanation, Tak. Thanks.
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FWIW I tried covering the K812's surrounding metal mesh and bass dropped a lot. It seemed it might actuality be bassier without the mesh.
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FWIW I tried covering the K812's surrounding metal mesh and bass dropped a lot. It seemed it might actuality be bassier without the mesh.
Not that mesh, the one over the diaphragm that's bolted on with screws.
And no, your hands were serving as a bass sponge due to their high density and the porosity of your skin. The human epidermis is actually quite good at dampening vibrations... if only there was a way to actually make use of that property... :&
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What would be a good price point for this? $900? It seems similar to the t1 but is it a bit better?
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$300
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What would be a good price point for this? $900? It seems similar to the t1 but is it a bit better?
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2562.0.html
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$300
That's generous. :)
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So I guess the 712 would be a better deal>
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So I guess the 712 would be a better deal>
by far, yes