CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on July 07, 2012, 01:47:44 AM
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HiFiMAN HE-400 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=391.0;attach=1726;image)
Subjective impressions and some thoughts.
I think they sound dark*. Others have said they sound bright. Having had some time to listen to the HE400 in my own home, the truth is that the HE-400 are a little bit of both. I know it doesn't sound possible, but let me explain. There's a broad upper midrange dip around 4k-5kHz. This is the opposite of the HD700 which has a massive peak in this area. 4k-5k tends to add some bite, energy, edge, and liveliness to recordings. The HD700 has way too much of it - a serious error of commission. The HE400 has too little of it - an less serious error of omission. However, the HE400 also has a good amount of treble. The 10kHz definition area is not recessed at all. There also seems to be quite a lot of air or high treble in the last octave. So there you go. It's laid-back because of the upper-mids are dipped. It's bright because the mid and upper treble are somewhat raised.
In terms of tone, the HE-400s remind me of the STAX 007. I don't think any other (iso)dynamic sounds as close tonally to the 007 as the HE-400. This is a good sounding headphone for those who don't mind "lack of fun or lack of false clarity". It's a very relaxing listen with nice mids, great detail retrieval, and good transient response. If there's any downside, they don't sound as "clean" as some other comparable headphones (although the bass sounds fairly clean.) This headphone is the anti-HD700. Turn down the treble a bit, and it's a awesome high-SPL headphone.
Measurements should be up by 7:00pm PST.
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CSDs show that characteristic "ortho wall" ringing at 2kHz which seems to be benign. Note the LCD3, K340, HE5 also have similar behavior.
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Good news, bad news. Excellent low distortion in the bass compared to other headphones. High distortion everywhere else, especially higher order distortion. 2nd order distortion is not great, but also not too shabby. I will recheck these measurements.
4th (D4), and 5th (D5) order distortion will usually stay below 0.01% for a good headphone. A great headphone will have 3rd order distortion less than 0.01% too.
The higher order distortion is probably indicative of a high noise floor for these headphones. As I said, they are not the cleanest sounding headphones around. While the HE-400s have good articulation, they are not very "black" sounding and kind of "dirty" near the sound floor.
Well, they are a bargain at $399.
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Interesting graphs. Simply based off of looking at the spikes, I can imagine sensitive listeners may have problems with that headphone, especially at loud volumes.
Given that the HE-400 is an ortho (which seems to tame some of the results for real-world listening?), are there specific types of amps to avoid?
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Crappy ones.
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It's actually a good moderate-high SPL volume headphone with tonal balance very similar to the 007.
- CSD is fairly clean with fast decay, except for the 2k ringing is "wall of ortho" ringing which is not audible as something nasty - at least to my ears.
- Spikes between 3kHz-12kHz present problems depending upon their magnitude and whether they translate into ringing.
- Distortion is still low despite higher than typical higher order harmonic distortion. Bass distortion is excellent - better than HD800.
- Treble at 10kHz is a bit hot, but it's not any louder than the bass/mids.
- 14kHz shoots up a bit, but this is an area where most people's hearing starts to roll off.
The HE400 is a very good headphone. It sounds good out of both solid-state and tube amps - at least the non-crappy ones.
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I'll have to check it out sometime. I like the HE-6s since it reminds me a bit of my SR007 in overall tonality. The HE-500 sounded coarser to my ears. I hope the HE-400 doesn't have that character. I'm going to try the LCD-2 out again on a better amp. I wonder if the orthos respond well to a better signal chain than non-ortho dynamics, like how malleable the stats are.
There's a particular character to bass impact on my HE-6s I'm not used to compared to my experiences with non-ortho dynamics and stats. It's very punchy and immediate. I'm not sure if it's related to that spike at 2k, but I wanted to mention it in case it's showing up in the graphs.
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I dunno. HE6 sounds very different tonally from 007 to me. HE6 is brighter and more etched. 007 also has a little mid-bass hump.
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Maybe tonality is the wrong word. The two headphones emphasize different areas of the spectrum, but there are enough commonalities between the overall presentation that I'm pretty happy moving between the two. The HE-6s are definitely brighter than the SR007.
That reminds me, something about the SR009 brightness really bugged me and gave a headache over time, but the HE-6s are tolerable. I'll have revisit those CSDs. I'll take the conversation out of this thread.
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Reminds me of HD650.
How does that compare to HE-400?
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Which pads did you use for these measurements? Wondering how much of a difference they would make, and in what way.
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Which pads did you use for these measurements? Wondering how much of a difference they would make, and in what way.
This. The velour pads make a considerable all-positive impact on the sound compared to the stock pleathers, everyone over at the HE400 threads seem to agree. Were these measurements done with velours? The FR looks quite different from the Innerfidelity / headroom measurements, namely the lack of huge 1kHz hump, so I'm guessing you did use the velours.
Nevertheless purrin, very interesting measurements indeed, there seem to be a lot that these do great with and some small issues as well. The treble tuning is pretty clever IMO, think of it this way - if the ~5kHz range is tuned to regular levels which the 14kHz+ stays where it is, then the overall treble might sound overly bright rather than this "dark but with good sparkle" signature. Very cool that this has some of the cleanest bass too.
Also, I wonder if the high distortion is a trade-off for the high efficiency?
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LOL. I forgot to mention they were slightly modified. I used the stock pads, but put a thin layer of polyfill between the drivers and the external grill. This essentially raises the depressed area 1db, lowers the bass area 1db, but manages to leave the treble alone.
The speculation that higher distortion was a result of increased efficiency could be true.
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Why? Are these easier to drive than the LCD-2?
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Supposedly the easiest of all planars.
I'd really like to see the measurements with velours.
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LOL. I forgot to mention they were slightly modified. I used the stock pads, but put a thin layer of polyfill between the drivers and the external grill. This essentially raises the depressed area 1db, lowers the bass area 1db, but manages to leave the treble alone.
The speculation that higher distortion was a result of increased efficiency could be true.
Could you try out the velour pads and perhaps do a measurement with that too? If you still have any of the other Hifiman headphones you should have some compatible velours lying around that can be popped on these. It'd be great to have some objective confirmation (or debunking) of the sonic effects of the velours on the HE400s.
The polyfill mod sounds VERY interesting though.
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LOL. I forgot to mention they were slightly modified. I used the stock pads, but put a thin layer of polyfill between the drivers and the external grill. This essentially raises the depressed area 1db, lowers the bass area 1db, but manages to leave the treble alone.
The speculation that higher distortion was a result of increased efficiency could be true.
That actually answers my second question. I was going to see if you thought they had any modding potential!
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I'm just not registering the significant valley centered around 5kHz when I do my SineGen sweeps. In fact it sounds just as loud at 5000 Hz compared to 1000 and 8000 Hz. The sharp "artifact" dips are still present though. Perhaps the velour pads raise that upper midrange valley? Or maybe my pair just has a better tonal balance than your pair purrin.
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Are you doing them by ear? Because I don't totally trust sine sweeps (because of distortion), even with my own ears. Can you do 1/3 octave band white noise?
The other thing is that the dip around ~5kHz is an artifact. Check the CSD. There's actually some minor ringing going on there.
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Are you doing them by ear? Because I don't totally trust sine sweeps (because of distortion)...
Yep, and I see. I don't know how to do the white noise thing you described though.
The other thing is that the dip around ~5kHz is an artifact. Check the CSD. There's actually some minor ringing going on there.
Totally missed that; so a lot of these sharp dips are just artifacts caused by ringing then, it seems rarely the case with your measurements here that a sharp dip is actually a sharp dip, something ugly always seems to cover it up.
Nevertheless, again, please do take a quick measurement of these with velour pads when you have the time.
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I find the graph to be perfectly in sync with what I heard with these cans. Laid back, relaxed yet slightly bassy and sparkly. Not totally neutral but simulates a loudspeaker's perspective with the distance of the sound. The hd600 was forward in a direct comparison with the he400 yet they were grainier and more resolving of some parts due to the more filled in upper mids.
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So is this just me or is there an uncanny resemblance?
(http://i045.radikal.ru/0802/b0/0013f4b6d990.jpg)
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/72/72c17a98_he-400.jpeg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y285/heildriver/P1010742e.jpg)
what we have is T50RP , HE400 , T50RP ( couldn't find a T40RP )
..dB
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When I first saw the HE400 driver I thought the same thing, and was pretty excited about them, almost bought them for this reason. Would be cool to see how the internals differ.
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Yeah. Just a giant version of the T50RP with similar suspension and magnet design. The traces on the HE400 are very coarse though. Your HE400 driver housing looks better than mine. Mine is some kind of cheap looking translucent white plastic instead of black.
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The driver traces is what I was just looking at
nowhere near the T50rp
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4066/4517202697_1769828e23_b.jpg)
I suspect very similar construction though ..dB
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I wonder for HE400s:
- Is the higher distortion from 200Hz upward a result of the coarse traces?
- Why is the bass quality so good on these?
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Fang's designs have always been very crude ( raw diaphragm , not finished product ) but they have sounded much better than I would have predicted. Bass could be a tension phenomenon ( as could the distortion ) , fostex and many others pleated the diaphragms to improve bass extension..dB
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Older HE-400 drivers have black frame. Newer ones (post issues) have white frames. Still would like to see what noticeable effects the velour pads have on these.
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Not trying to give anyone a hard time. It's much easier for Marv to take velour pad measurements if someone actually volunteers to send them to him. This is how the concept of "community" works. It's my understanding that most of the measurements we see on this site are the result of the generousity of volunteers who send in their headphones for measurement.
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Not trying to give anyone a hard time. It's much easier for Marv to take velour pad measurements if someone actually volunteers to send them to him. This is how the concept of "community" works. It's my understanding that most of the measurements we see on this site are the result of the generousity of volunteers who send in their headphones for measurement.
Words of wisdon tdunn!
I think I have some velour pads. :)p7
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It's almost as much to send them as to buy them! =O
I apologize though, I think me, among others, all assumed he had a pair of HE-500s still lying around.
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Just had a listen to a friend's HE-400 while he was listening to my HE-500.
WTF is up with his pair. Its extremely bright. Last time I encountered something so stabbingly bright and sibilant was the Sony SA5000....
Is he a poor victim of Hifiman QC blunders....
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Perhaps. Supposedly Hifiman released a batch that had to be recalled, and it was known for very apparent treble issues-- it had sandy brown colored plastic grill over its driver.
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Eh I dunno, IMO the latest revision HE400 is brighter than HE500 by a fair margin. I have both and A/Bing them there is definitely a big difference in treble quantity past 10kHz (that is reflected in the measurements here too).
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Yes, while the HE400 is slightly bright, the HE500 is very slightly dark.
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My HE400 (one of the first batches) sounds slightly dark to me.
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My HE400 (one of the first batches) sounds slightly dark to me.
Early revision (rev1 black driver, as well as the earliest white-driver rev2s) were as I recall very dim in the treble. Current-production HE400s are much much brighter in the mid~upper treble. It's such a huge change too, not like LCD2r1 -> r2.
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Interesting. My pair is bright in the last octave, but really laid back in the upper-mids and lower treble.
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Interesting. My pair is bright in the last octave, but really laid back in the upper-mids and lower treble.
Same here.
My earliest pair (which was replaced as it had cut-out issues, not surprising since it was a January batch) was really rolled off in the treble though, and from all the early 2012 official HE400 reviews, all the reviewers received the early dim treble versions too. There was no tizziness issues with any of those because treble was very little in quantity. Then Hifiman silently retuned the drivers into the present bright version.
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Kind of depressing for me to hear, as I really like the way my HE400 is tuned. It stands out in Fang's lineup.
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Kind of depressing for me to hear, as I really like the way my HE400 is tuned. It stands out in Fang's lineup.
But at the same time you should be quite content that you got one of the very few "correctly tuned" HE400s, that will ever exist. Lol.
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I had an HE-400 on long term loan and while a little bright, it was not to bad. Nowhere near my experience with the DT990. Quite enjoyable IMO.
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A well tuned 400 is quite nice for the money. I love the bass resolution most about it.
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It quite bothers me how many people refuse to EQ it and detest its excess in upper treble. It's an easy thing to fix via one simple rolloff starting at 8khz and getting down to -6db at around 15khz. Refusal to EQ is only just one of the vexing items on my personal hatelist for audiophile tomfoolery though.
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Listening to these for a bit I think I've figured out what the mid HD sounds like. Vocals above bass/baritone sound distorted in a way that's reminiscent of the Black Keys' vocal distortion effects. I'm not sure how the Keys model it, whether through a tube "warmer" or saturation, but it's unlike old recordings in that the vocals don't sound quite as bandwidth limited. The HE400's distortion also serves to bring up compression artifacts, both dynamic compression and, oddly, mp3 compression. Maybe part of it is a raised noisefloor, I think it might be that the added HD noise might have an etching-like effect, though not necessarily in the negative implication of that word, more like coin etching --
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KHbyXs3JbDY/UU0NqbT9iNI/AAAAAAAALv4/VnvUIKTbjuM/s400/coin+etching.JPG)
This added "grain" works for some of the pop recordings I've tried. For purely electronic compositions it adds an almost smeared transient-like quality to some samples, again kind of like a sequencer is messing up playing a sample. Thankfully the HD doesn't appear to compromise up the sense of instrument separation.
Tonally the headphone is not bad at all, I like the moderate V-shaped response, it reminds me a little of an exaggerated 007. A bit more slam than the stats while maintaining all the detail. I've heard "faster" bass from stats (009) and other orthos (Abyss, maybe the LCD3), but this is a very good balance.
The soundstage isn't as closed in as with the LCD2, although it doesn't approach the diffusivity of open dynamics.
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Wow, that is a really good description of the effect.
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So if there's anyone who wanted to give these a try but hasn't pulled the trigger yet, they're down to $300 on Amazon right now. That's a steal if I've ever seen one.
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So if there's anyone who wanted to give these a try but hasn't pulled the trigger yet, they're down to $300 on Amazon right now. That's a steal if I've ever seen one.
They've been $300 for months now. Hifiman is trying to phase them out.
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So if there's anyone who wanted to give these a try but hasn't pulled the trigger yet, they're down to $300 on Amazon right now. That's a steal if I've ever seen one.
I was about to order from amazon/head-direct but after all the costs like shipping and customs added they would be around 360 USD while a deal for a barely used one came up which only costed me ~220 USD which was a good deal for my limited budget. I'm using them out of a Fiio E7 but sounds really good so far.