CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on March 14, 2013, 06:56:13 PM
-
NAD RP18 Bass Heavy (aka Kapton Version) Measurements
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=866.0;attach=3066;image)
Quick subjective impressions (my comments paraphrased from shoutbox)
- These are nice
- Clear and articulate
- Good bass extension with slightest roll-off. Don't expect Audeze impact though.
- Little rough in the lower treble
- Lots of air
- Holy crap. These ancient NAD RP18s / open T50s are amazing.
-
CSDs
As I suspected, the 5kHz dip in the FR was really ringing in disguise. The broad ridge ringing at 5k accounts for what RD heard. I myself have a heard really noticing (or caring too much about) ringing in the 5kHz region. I hear it, but it doesn't bother me. If that makes any sense.
-
CSDs
As I suspected, the 5kHz dip in the FR was really ringing in disguise.
If you put certain pads on these...the Bass GOES BOOM! :-00
I don't like hippity hop bass so I chose these pads. You want LCD-2/3 bass...change the pads. ;)
-
These are capable of even bigger bass than LCD-2/3 too. Change the damping and use W11 pads and it's scary. Midrange is lovely with the added richness though.
-
^Use O2 pads and these can literally pound your skull !
-
HD
-
HD
Extremely interesting!
Thanks for the effort dude!
-
left HD.
Seeing how the left FR was rougher, I expected this...
- Bass to lower mid distortion is relatively low though.
- High 3rd / odd order probably helps to give this headphone it's crisp sound.
-
Impressive; that upper treble decay (at least for the left channel) is pretty amazing-looking.
-
So for those who don't know, the NAD RP18 is an OEM of Fostex's original large driver ortho made in 1975, the T50v1. Yes, this headphone was made in 1975!!! It has a large driver of similar size to the LCD-2, is open back. There are 2 versions that were made for NAD, one with a mylar diaphragm and one with a kapton diaphragm. This is the kapton version, which in stock form puts out more bass than the mylar version, but which is controlled through damping. Both versions can be very neutral from bass to midrange with the right damping.
http://wiki.faust3d.com/wiki/index.php?title=NAD_RP18 (http://wiki.faust3d.com/wiki/index.php?title=NAD_RP18)
Guru has some good links too which have some good info posted by Wualta.
I've been wanting to see measurements of these for a long time (as have many ortho-heads), and I hope this is a testament to how far we haven't come with ortho technology. This is what Fostex was able to do nearly 40 years ago when they tried to make the best ortho they could, targeted at the audiophile market. Goes to show what should be possible with today's advancements in materials and manufacturing. Think about where electrodynamics were in 1975, and how much improvement we've seen over the last 40 years. Compare an HD800 to the 70's electrodynamics. Fostex never updated this design, it was (AFAIK) their first attempt, and their only attempt at an audiophile ortho. Ever since then they have focused on cheaper models, which were all products for a target price and target market with limited, specific design goals. Today's T50rp is not an "all out" design either, it's made specifically for the prosumer market and isn't intended to sound good. Let's compare to Sennheiser's products- if this was Fostex's "HD800" type product (statment, all out design) in 1975, today's T50rp would be like Sennheiser's HD280 or something. The other neo orthos are good, but they could be much better. I would love to see what Fostex could do today if they tried to make something that sounded good. I honestly think they could rival the best electrostats and electrodynamics (the "super" LCD-3's probably give us a taste of what is possible). Though I'm sure I couldn't afford it with today's pricing and the way Fostex prices their TH series.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/b/b1/b1195b2a_c66e39a1_DSC_0192.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3363/3300580459_fa03f78cee_o.jpg)
-
Thanks RD! I was just getting ready to hit the google trail, but your explanation was WAY better! :)p1
-
Here's the link to Wualta's original thread:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/94407/planar-obsession-old-fostex-t50 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/94407/planar-obsession-old-fostex-t50)
A bit of history :
The original Fostex T50 was released around 1975 in Japan. NAD RP18 is the OEM version of this headphone which was released around 1977 in German market.
North America got its first taste of this headphone in 1978 & it is this NA version that was usually referred to as T50v1 by Wualta et al in the HF ortho thread.
The 1975 version was referred to as T50v0 and their was another version around 1980 that was called the T50v2(just to be clear these terms were used by orthoheads on HF, Fostex itself refers to all three versions as just 'Fostex T50').
Minor nitpicks I know, but it is intended so that folks who follow HF ortho thread don't get confused.
-
I think the 1975 date should be the one remembered though, because that's when the design and materials used are dated to. As in, this is what was possible in 1975. I added another paragraph to my above post.
-
The intricacy of those diaphragm tracings put Hifiman / Audeze drivers to shame...
-
Fantastic explanation RD, was curious about these and learned a little something today.
-
The intricacy of those diaphragm tracings put Hifiman / Audeze drivers to shame...
don't lump hifiman and audeze in the same boat when it comes to driver design. HFM does look like a basement etch job but the LCD's have amazed me with their technical prowess when it comes to driver design, both trace density , layout and special "tricks" used to get more performance out of the drivers.
..dB
-
Hey Don, kudos for discovering the RP18/Hifiman pad synergy! They sound better with the hifiman pads than with the others I'd tried previously. Although the Jmoney Beyer pads are pretty good too. Talk about soundstage!
-
Thread is awesome :money:, these will be hard to find now tough! :)p2
-
The intricacy of those diaphragm tracings put Hifiman / Audeze drivers to shame...
don't lump hifiman and audeze in the same boat when it comes to driver design. HFM does look like a basement etch job but the LCD's have amazed me with their technical prowess when it comes to driver design, both trace density , layout and special "tricks" used to get more performance out of the drivers.
..dB
Apologies, I assumed without any basis they'd used similar methods of etching.
Are there any photos of exposed LCD2 or LCD3 diaphragms released on the Internet? The only photos are ones that have the magnet enclosures on and the tracings barely showing through the cracks.
-
not sure if there are any in the wild. Traces are very thin and densely packed, especially in the original LCD2. That particular driver had staggered magnets; I never could fathom the value in doing this.
-
Thanks for bringing some coverage to these here. That driver looks great! Are you planning on doing extensive experiments with them or just having a little fun?
-
They are already modded. More experimentation will probably be done down south though.
-
Any opinions on detail extraction? Amazing what headphones could do so early on. With stuff as good as this, why does the DT48(also ancient) get such ridiculous hype?
-
Any opinions on detail extraction? Amazing what headphones could do so early on. With stuff as good as this, why does the DT48(also ancient) get such ridiculous hype?
I asked myself the same question once.
Then I think: why is the Monitor 10 as underrated as it is? I thought about it and concluded for myself that it's part of how the consumer society works. Something is good, gets forgotten and people move on. That's usually how it works...
-
Any opinions on detail extraction? Amazing what headphones could do so early on. With stuff as good as this, why does the DT48(also ancient) get such ridiculous hype?
I asked myself the same question once.
Then I think: why is the Monitor 10 as underrated as it is? I thought about it and concluded for myself that it's part of how the consumer society works. Something is good, gets forgotten and people move on. That's usually how it works...
That is true.
I think it's also the consumer mindset. The need to constantly get the latest and great even though it might not be all that great. There is a certain need in the vast majority of the population to "belong" and many achieve this through consumerism. Just look at all the circle jerks going on at Consumer-Fi. Few people know what they are talking about and even fewer can hear properly enough to judge certain products but they are all happy in their circle jerks, patting each other on the back for buying the new HD-700 or some other shitty headphone/amp.
There is some theoretical and cultural stress on acquiring the new and the novel which obscures rational thought. This in turn causes the existenceof false needs which are then easily manipulated by companies to control the docile consumer through planned obsolescence...in our case "NEW TOTL" or "FOTM" or "Upgrades".
I think the phrase "Know Thyself" is critical to this hobby as it is with any other aspect of our lives. Surely, there must be other things that makes us feel good other than consumer instant gratification.
And no Anax...I'm not a commie. :)p2
EDIT: Sorry for the rant. :)p3
-
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7KKO6p347Tj1NnCJhIn7A55sYpNRIIsX97BSDvkjm5qPDMmLbFw)
-
Any opinions on detail extraction? Amazing what headphones could do so early on. With stuff as good as this, why does the DT48(also ancient) get such ridiculous hype?
I asked myself the same question once.
Then I think: why is the Monitor 10 as underrated as it is? I thought about it and concluded for myself that it's part of how the consumer society works. Something is good, gets forgotten and people move on. That's usually how it works...
yup. it's more society thing and being ''cool'' phase. the monitor 10 is insanely good headphone. i liked it as much my DF's but in a way found the monitor 10's sounded bit more ''cleaner''. it isolated really damn well too. the weight issue was never problem for me.
anyhoo, for the subject. this is really interesting graph. i would of suspected the older fostex drivers to do very well,and they did. always was interested in hearing what they sound like and performed.
-
Any opinions on detail extraction? Amazing what headphones could do so early on. With stuff as good as this, why does the DT48(also ancient) get such ridiculous hype?
Dale Thorn
-
Just thought I'd chime in with some impressions on the RP18, as I've got a NOS pair now. Mine are the mylar version and not the kapton ones however, and I haven't heard the kapton to compare. I'm running these in stock form (with the original flat pads, but they're practically in like-new condition) out of the Liquid Glass using some vintage Hytrons 12SN7s.
Wow... these are damned impressive. The bass seems well controlled, not too prevalent or sloppy. Mids are simply gorgeous, detailed and articulate. Nice sense of air and that "presence" that a lot of orthos have, like a very convincing grounded weight to the entire sound. Highs aren't the most refined, but they're reigned in and not fatiguing to me at all. Overall a pretty nicely balanced sound, but with a certain laid back quality I quite like. I imagine that modded these could be on the same level as the Yamaha YH-1000 and most recent orthos. Hell, even in stock form these give a lot of recent stuff a run for its money.
I should also say these things come alive with more power behind them. Granted, they sound very good even out of the UHA-6S, but with some of Cavalli's ortho-goodness they shine even in stock form. I definitely need to get some HiFiMan pads on these.
Also on a semi-related note, I need to find some better pads for the original Fostex T30s. HiFiMan wont work, as the cups are smaller in circumference than the T50. Maybe about 2/3rds the size I'm guessing.
Overall though I've been very impressed with these vintage Fostex. Now the Aiwa orthos.... hooooooly crapola. That's for another post however. :)p6
-
@MF : Try these with hifiman pads which should improve the treble extension and open up the soundstage as well.
For the T30, which iirc has an OD of 90mm, you can try the shure srh440 pads which should be a good match.
-
Edit. Improved my rig With cowskin leather instead of felt as cover and added the New measurment:
Sold my LCD-2`s r.1 and kept these instead. Never regretted it. Basically the same headphones if you ask me but the Audeze had a higher sales prize and a tizzy treble. With some EQ the Nad is awsome :)p1
(http://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2014/03/09/20140309132514dYBtw.jpg)
(http://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2014/03/09/nadlr.jpg)
(http://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2014/03/09/hrtf.jpg)
(http://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2014/03/09/nad33.jpg)
Upper is With added "HRTF" values. 3000hz, 15dB Gain 25 BW/60 and 5000hz 13dB Gain 20 BW/60. The lower is the raw measurement.
-
Stratocaster send his 'woodified' NAD RP18-Kapton in for measurements (including some other headphones)
(http://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/nad-rp18-s.jpg)
This is how it measures:
(http://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/nad-rp18.png)
and CSD (right channel only)
(http://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/csd-r.png?w=921&h=476)
Tonally balanced, the midrange seems slightly ‘better’ than T50RP-Alpha, a bit more clarity.
Bass on this one is also somewhat ‘clippish’ but seems slightly better than that of T50RP-Alpha.
The cymbals are over-accentuated a bit, making it sound highly detailed.
No sibilance or harsh sound with the better recordings. A bit in-between the lusher T50RP-Alpha and the more direct DT250 treble.
Not as smooth/clean as T50RP though but certainly not rough sounding.
Mids are its strongest points. A very clean and pleasant sound leaning toward ‘cuppy/hollow’ sound in some recordings on direct comparison with a reference headphone.
Very open and not overly dynamic nor compressed sounding, just ‘right’ in the mids tonally albeit leaning towards some edginess with some recordings.
The Alpha padded T50RP is more bassy (warmer) and slightly smoother up top but the NAD sounds a bit more ‘detailed’ and ‘fresher’ be it somewhat ‘rougher’.
Frequency range right up to 4kHz is quite good. The dip at 5kHz and treble peak is less desirable and is flanked by ringing.
-
At lower to medium listening levels that headphone looks like a great way to enjoy your music. The sound signature is a matter of personal taste...
-
NAD RP18 (Kapton Version) revisited, open back version.
-
Really love the look of your headphones! Seems you are doing a good job tuning them as well.
-
Great work :)p1
That test rig really is paying off.
It is MUCH easier to mod once you can 'see' what you are doing.
-
Nice, What mods were done?
-
..what mods were done?
HifiMan HE500 velour pads and some damping inside the cups, nothing voodoo.