CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: Marvey on June 29, 2014, 03:12:14 AM
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OK. I'll make this short.
UPDATE 6/29/2014 :
also see Test #2 (comparison with Audio-GD Master 7 DAC built in USB)
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1652.msg43849.html#msg43849 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1652.msg43849.html#msg43849)
Test system:
- Eddie Current 4-44 tube amp, vintage 45s of various sort and amperex 5842
- Fostex FE168 Sigma drivers in BK-16 enclosure (wrong box really, but EQ'd to work. wanted to use these drivers b/c they more resolving than the FE166s)
- Audio-GD Master DAC w/ DACLadder's HDMI i2s input mod
- Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5 (AMB power supply, Hynes regulator upgrade, USB cable with cut +5, NO turboclock upgrade on OR5)
Test tracks:
- Eagles - Hotel CA from the XRCD Hell Freezes Over
- Sarah McLachlan - Elsewhere from Fumbling... (original CD)
- Daft Punk - Get Lucky (lol)
Test setup:
Plugged in Wyrd between laptop and OR5.
Laptop --USB--> Wyrd --USB w/cut 5v--> OR5 --HDMI i2s--> AGD-M7
Test result:
Makes the OR5 sound like it has the $700 turbo clock option. No Schiit!
For reference on the OR5 and effect of the turboclocks, see links below:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,925.0.html (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,925.0.html)
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,925.msg24520.html#msg24520 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,925.msg24520.html#msg24520)
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1111.msg30693.html#msg30693 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1111.msg30693.html#msg30693)
Next Tests:
Will test on AGD-M7's USB which is known to be craptastic. Let's see what it does. For reference points:
- Ciunas USB to coax adapter brought some focus and precision and corrected tonal oddities of the M7.
- OR5 USB to i2s brought a lot of focus and precision, corrected tonal oddities, and significantly increased resolution.
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Forgot to attach pictures.
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Do tell us on how it improves USB32! If it does, I'm getting one too.
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Marv, making me spend more money again. Curious to hear if it mostly helps with certain recordings, and if it helps with the gungnir on USB. If it makes mediocre recordings sound worse... then it's probably not for me.
I think the turbo-clocks could be too much of a good thing. Without the turbo-clocks, sounds are not as super articulate or precise, but this leaves the treble more relaxed and less tight-assed.
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Had a similar experience with the olimex USB-ISO isolator feeding my Hugo. Brings back the connection to music.
I ordered a USB3 fiber cable with receiver that has a +5V input. This should provide:
- Total galvanic isolation from the laptop (which seems to be quite dirty considering the effect of the USB isolator).
- Better 5V signal.
Let's see how that goes.
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But dis nae be booty...?
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But dis nae be booty...?
Not enough reviews in yet.
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So I'm guessing this will have a lot less impact if you have a good PC?
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So I'm guessing this will have a lot less impact if you have a good PC?
I don't think that's the correct way to look at it. Unless by 'good PC' you mean you already have some sort of isolating reclocker card installed on the PCI bus. I've always built my own PCs with the best components available, I doubt most folks with their off the shelf Dells and Macs are doing better than myself.
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So I'm guessing this will have a lot less impact if you have a good PC?
Depends what you mean by "good." There are a couple of things you can do in BIOS to improve performance, and you can run Fidelizer or a stripped out, music only OS like VortexBox which will help as well, but what you really need is a linear or battery main power supply, preferably direct to the ATX input rather than through a 12V socket which then has to go through cheap onboard DC-DC regulators, and a dedicated USB output card like the JCAT, SoTM, or PPA, fed from that same PSU or a second dedicated supply rather than board power.
If you have all of that in place, the Wyrd probably won't do that much. Of course that begs the question, just how close can you get to a $1K+ dedicated server with the Wyrd at 1/10 the cost.
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Yeah, optimizing a music server is a pain in the ass.
I took the easy way out and bought Greed's CAPS server and his Paul Hynes LPS. I also have a couple of bakoon BPS-02 (battery PSUs) on order to see how they fair vs the LPS. As for the OS I've been fooling around with this:
http://jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/release-of-new-windows-server-2012-audiophile-core-edition-this-weekend/
I'm wondering at this point if adding a Wyrd to the chain would still filter out some extra crap, but I'm also worried that adding an extra component to the signal path would degrade it.
From what I can see what separates the Wyrd from something like a Vaunix lab brick is that it also reclocks the signal? I wonder if that's the main thing that Purrin is hearing when he described the turboclock effect. Also I'm not sure if the clock in the Wyrd is better than the one SOTM uses in their USB card.
I'll probably get one for the office rig regardless- I mean 99$? Damn. I'm thinking this will be a must-buy for most users.
@Dave: the be all end all is still an external clock. An optimized server with a AES32 synced to a high end external clock (DCS/Eso/Antelope) then fed to a DAC pretty much blows whatever usb card/converter/etc out of the water (and so does the price). PCI-e has a higher priority than USB anyways.
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@Dave: the be all end all is still an external clock. An optimized server with a AES32 synced to a high end external clock (DCS/Eso/Antelope) then fed to a DAC pretty much blows whatever usb card/converter/etc out of the water (and so does the price). PCI-e has a higher priority than USB anyways.
That's true, but really only useful if you're using something like megabuck dCS, Esoteric, or MSB DACs. Based on what I've heard the Overdrive do with the relatively humble Mac servers that Steve was using, unless you're going for extreme overkill with a 6 figure system, going to a $1-1.5K homebuilt server with a LPS and JCAT card will still get you a significant boost over say an off the shelf Lenovo laptop.
Esoteric's G-01 clock generator is something like $25K. I'm never going to own that. On the other hand, an Empirical Dynamo powered Celeron J based server with the PPA custom Pico and the JCAT card is very much within most people's reach.
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Test #2
- Laptop --usb--> AGD M7
- Laptop --usb--> Wyrd --usb--> AGD M7
- Laptop --usb--> Wyrd --usb--> OR5 --i2s --> AGD M7
Setup 1
M7 running the firmware version prior to the current one (it's June 29, 2014). This firmware seemed to go to some length to correct the tonal oddness of the prior M7 USB. The prior firmware gave the M7 a certain stridency and overly thick bass. Sort of a U curve in effect. Also, stage depth while distant was extremely shallow. This firmware increases the depth of the stage somewhat. The U curve tonal response is now gone. The bass thickness is still there, however the treble stridency has largely been corrected, resulting in a more consistent, perhaps dark tonal response.
However, all rest the sucky things about the built in M7 USB are still there. A tendency toward muddy thick mushy unclear bass. Blobular indistinct stage and still somewhat a shallow depth. Poor resolution and microdynamics. Grey background. Still what I could consider a GOOD DAC, a good PCM1704 sound, but this just doesn't cut it for me.
Setup 2
Wow! Holy Schiit. Blackground becomes black. Things now in focus. Precision in note rendering. No blurriness of the built in USB. More detail. Could this be better than the OR5? Or maybe almost as good... I listen longer and I realize a stronger than usual "ssssss" in Glen Frey's voice. This is exactly the turboclock effect I mentioned earlier in the OR5 thread (references and link above.) I know the M7 does has this tendency to have some stridency in the USB despite whatever firmware, so perhaps the Wyrd simply brings this out more along with all the other good things. Still, it's not something which is a huge chance. We are still splitting atoms here.
As an aside, just to make things clear, I now feel the turboclock on the OR5 is a good idea with the M7 as long as the OR5 has a good power supply, just not necessarily with the PWD2 that I owned or at least without a good power supply for the OR5.
Setup 3
So now I'm getting worried. Thinking whether if I should even make this post so I can dump my OR5 on HF or the 'gon before everyone knows.
Well, guess what? It's not even close. The OR5 (with the Wyrd in the chain) simply destroys the other setups. The precision of space, stability of images, "centering" as Maxvla likes to call it is just on another level. The microdynamic swings, the nuances, the finesse, the microdetail. The OR5 / Wyrd is just on another level. No stridency. Just delicacy. Can barely tell the M7 even has "PCM1704 bass" (yes, there is such a thing!).
Final Comments
Well, that's it folks. I'll try to dig up some other DACs to try out. I do know that the Wyrd is a good match with the Gungnir. Let's say I have heard Wyrd+Gungnir at some other time before and can vouch for that. (Ask Anax too for another data point.) OR5 is overkill for Gungnir (Gungnir won't scale and OR5 is x2 the price of the Gungnir), but Wyrd is just about right at $99. Definitely more effective than the Audiophileo AP1 without the PS (which didn't do anything.)
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Very cool. Interesting the effect that it has on the OR5, considering the OR isn't making any use of the improved Vbus, although I suppose if it has any effect on the ground, that would still help. The OR does benefit from the Short Block. Converters that make at least partial use of the Vbus line like the Alpha and the OR6 may benefit even more from the Wyrd.
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Marv, you bastard! I'm going to order one now! :)p1
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So Wyrd + DAC is more detailed, but also strident?
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So Wyrd + DAC is more detailed, but also strident?
For AGD M7 (built in USB) yes. For PWD2, I would highly suspect so. For Gungnir, no. In any event, it really wasn't a huge deal, but equipment matching may be made for difficult. For example, the effect with the M7 may not have been desirable with the TH900 or DT880.
As with the OR5 (no PS) the turboclock decision with the PWD2, if the DAC has a tendency to do certain odd things with the treble, the effect may be accentuated. More focus and precision may sometimes not be a good thing, or bring other things along with it.
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Thanks for the impressions! I wasn't aware the PCM1704 had known bass characteristics, but I'm wondering if that's the difference I heard with my NOS1704 vs. other DACs. Wasn't necessarily the cleanest but seemed to have better texture (i.e. was able to get a really good bass guitar growl where other DACs could not at the expense of it sounding thicker and mushier).
This would probably be a good purchase for me since I use my gaming desktop for my listening rig (yeah, I like to push the envelope!).
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Thanks Marv, time to order one and hear for myself.
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I think what the Wyrd is giving is better USB signal integrity, and possibly lower noise (who knows exactly what it has inside the box). This is also what some other products like USB cables, USB cards and better music servers set out to achieve.
Generally I am hesitant to break the USB signal path as I have tried many other less clever gadgets which made things worse rather than better, but with the reclocking this could be the exception to the rule.
Not sure though if this would improve a music server with already good USB signal integrity and low noise. I would try it out but they don't sell 240v power supply yet.
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My wallet hates you, Marvey.
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Well, color me interested. I know the OR is highly regarded and to see a $99 item get into the same ballpark is really something.
My question: any comparisons to iFi iUSB ($200) or iFi iPurifier ($99)? The Purifier doesn't seem like anything special but the iUSB claims noise well below what the Wyrd has.
That being said, it looks super clunky compared to the Wyrd.
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I knew it! :)p1
I knew I was not dreaming when I heard the NFB-27 sound the best through its USB-32 input. This sound quality still remains my benchmark that no other DACs ever touched (not event the NFB-27 itself after I messed up my laptop setup facepalm).
The closest I've got to it is my Chord Hugo... but only with the USB isolator! And it's still not there yet.
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Well, colour me interested. I know the OR is highly regarded and to see a $99 item get into the same ballpark is really something.
Well, I wouldn't say the Wyrd is in the same ballpark as the OR5 i2s or even OR5 SPDIF implementation. If it was, I would have sold the OR5 without saying anything first.
However, I would say that the Wyrd is an effective solution for mid-tier DACs which can't take advantage / fully scale to the capabilities of the OR5, or a cost effective stand-in for the OR5 turboclock upgrade. Maybe not as good the turboclock, but 90% there to make me spend $99 instead of $700.
Think of the Wyrd as providing a subset of the OR5 capabilities. A more focused precise sound with blacker background and to a lesser extent better stage.
Finally, YMMV, especially with voodoo stuff like this. Probably not worth it if you are using an Objective 2 amp since you will be immune to placebo effects.
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Thanks, Marv. If you use a $500 dac, trying a $99 accessory instead of a $1299 (pre-upgrade!) makes plenty o' sense.
If anyone has experience with the iFi iUSB and can offer a comparison, I'd be glad to read it.
I'm tempted to order the Wyrd just because. They have a good return policy.
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Do you think this would make a worthwhile difference when coupled with the ODAC?
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If anyone has experience with the iFi iUSB and can offer a comparison, I'd be glad to read it.
Keep in mind that the iUSB is just a 5V power supply, it has no effect on the data. You can roll your own 5V supply by getting one of those USB cables with a DC-in tail and attaching whatever 5V supply you want to the Vbus line.
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Do you think this would make a worthwhile difference when coupled with the ODAC?
Do you think this would make a worthwhile difference when coupled with the ODAC?
Highly suspect it would work depending upon the quality of your computer's USB. For one, the Wyrd would probably provide better power than a typical Macbook or VAIO. In my experience with ODAC, it tends to be restrained most by quality of USB port.
Again, the changes are not huge (or they could be huge depending upon your experience, setup, or susceptibility to placebo effects.) I highly recommend that you at least be to a level 19 audiophile with good gear.
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BTW, I know quite a few of you other fuckers (pyrates) have ordered the Wyrd. Please post your impressions.
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Mine is hooked up and working well. I hesitate to post impressions because I also changed out speakers over the weekend, so I'm not certain what effect the Wyrd has in the grand scheme of things. I'll be doing comparisons throughout the week though.
I will say that it was pain free to set up, and my DAC had no issues detecting the Wyrd. I'm running Raspberry Pi --> Wyrd --> X-Sabre right now.
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BTW, I know quite a few of you other fuckers (pyrates) have ordered the Wyrd. Please post your impressions.
Will post my impressions with the gungnir and maybe the odac if Christian brings it over. Mine should arrive Wed or Thur.
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Do you think this would make a worthwhile difference when coupled with the ODAC?
It would make the setup worthwhile-y ironic.
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Hopefully can have impressions tomorrow night.
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I'm going to go ahead and get Wyrd at work. My set up is pretty basic, Macbook Air --> Pico DAC. It would be nice to see if I can refine it all a bit!
I can throw it ahead of the NAD and dCS for fun as well.
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I should be getting a Wyrd today.
I can try it with the Geek Out 450, Hugo, and microStreamer.
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Why does this help with DAC's that are not USB powered. If the DAC is powered from the wall directly, isn't it already isolated from the USB power?
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One may still have to worry about jitter present in the data lines due to perhaps a schiity clock (among other things), or noise due to a schiity and crammed up interface. The Wyrd Schiit may have a fairly robust USB receiver and re-generate the data using a clean clock and w a minimum of noise coupled into the lines at the transmission end. Crap stops at the Schiit so that such crap doesn't skirt all over down the chain, if things down the chain are too up tight to tolerate USB fuchis.
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If it's regenerating the signal then I might have to try this out with my Bifrost... which is currently the noisiest part of my chain and I can't figure out why.
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Why does this help with DAC's that are not USB powered. If the DAC is powered from the wall directly, isn't it already isolated from the USB power?
With the way USB is designed (as a conduit for both data and power), it opens it up for noise from your laptop or computer to make it into your DAC even if your DAC doesn't draw any power from the 5V. My current DAC doesn't use the 5V USB for any power, but I get a hell of a lot of noise when I try to listen through my Crack (which tends to be the most sensitive of all my gears). I still get noise even when I cut off the 5V leads on my USB cable. The noise from my laptop seems to be making it through the cable to my DAC, and to everything downstream even through the "Data" lines of the USB cable. My Crack is dead silent when I disconnect the USB from my laptop and use my CD transport through my DAC, so it is definitely the USB that is carrying the noise through to the rest of my chain.
Maybe if our upstream components (laptop, desktop) were designed better this wouldn't be an issue.
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Shipped a couple of hours after I ordered... it's refreshing to deal with a company that tries! :)p1
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Why does this help with DAC's that are not USB powered. If the DAC is powered from the wall directly, isn't it already isolated from the USB power?
Wyrd reclocks the signal with 20ppm oscillators or something that like. Other than separate power, it's pass through to the device of the end, so you use the drivers on the device on the end of it. No dedicated Wyrd drivers.
Wyrd USB does require USB power though from the source. Can't cut the +5V line there.
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I ordered mine yesterday around noon. It got delivered today just after noon. Not bad, but I am in San Diego which helps.
First very early impressions after an hour of listening or so:
Apple Macbook Air -> Wyrd -> Hugo -> Lyr 2 -> HD800(stock) and Paradox Slants
With Wyrd, the highs seem less strident. Smoother, but not darker. Just less harsh. As you can imagine, the HD800's on the Lyr 2 can be pretty harsh and bright. On recordings that are prone to sibilance and pain on some highs are actually not sibilant and bearable using the Wyrd. The difference is more noticeable than I expected. I am sure I could tell in a blind A/B test.
Apple Macbook Air -> Wyrd -> Geek Out 450 -> Lyr 2 -> HD800(stock) and Paradox Slants
In this case, I think there's even more difference. It's wyrd though that the output level seems to be louder when the Wyrd is in the loop. That doesn't make any sense though, but maybe the internal volume of the GO changes when I plug it into the Wyrd vs. the Macbook USB port. The difference is basically the same as with the Hugo, but I think there may be more bass impact with the Wyrd. On the highs, it's definitely smoother and less harsh with the Wyrd.
Anyway, I figure if I can hear the difference, then other more experienced listeners will definitely hear it and be able to describe more accurately the difference.
Overall, I think it's worth the money. I don't have anything like the OR5 to compare, but I don't think I'd listen anymore without the Wyrd in the loop.
-Darin
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Damn... really looking forward to getting mine tomorrow. Thanks for the impressions, Darin.
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Taking a listen with the Bricasti M1 before I ship it out. Will post impressions of it vs the original PS1000 when I get the chance. I'm sure you're all on tenterhooks.
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A brief impression as it normally takes a night to really sink in for me:
PC -> Wyrd -> NFB-7.32 via USB32 driver -> Master-1 -> Krell FPB 300cx
Seems to make things less fuzzy and more focus on the center of the image. Strings definitely have a bit more bite or individuality.
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I just noticed there's only a 115V AC adaptor available for the Wyrd. Guess I'm safe from temptation!
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What the Wyrd does is very similar to a clock upgrade / mod on a DAC. Just much cheaper.
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What the Wyrd does is very similar to a clock upgrade / mod on a DAC. Just much cheaper.
So, something akin to Bifrost --> Gungnir, with the Adapticlock?
From the Gungnir's FAQ:
"What’s Adapticlock™?
Nontechnically, it’s a way to decrapify the inputs, no matter how craptastic they are. If they are not very crappy, they get maximum decrapification, but even if they’re crappy, they get some decrapification."
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I just noticed there's only a 115V AC adaptor available for the Wyrd. Guess I'm safe from temptation!
It's just a 6V AC wallwart isn't it? I don't think anyone needs to wait if that's the case, a wallwart is not that hard to find.
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I think you're not quite on the same page as me on this whole "fleeing temptation" thing...
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I just noticed there's only a 115V AC adaptor available for the Wyrd. Guess I'm safe from temptation!
It's just a 6V AC wallwart isn't it? I don't think anyone needs to wait if that's the case, a wallwart is not that hard to find.
Don't forget it's an AC to AC adapter, NOT DC. The Wyrd wants 6V AC on it's input. Not sure how common AC to AC adapters are but I am sure someone sells them.
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My JKSPDIF doesn't get detected properly when I turn my computer on or resume it from sleep. Windows 8, custom built desktop. Could be a drive issue, and I can't say I'm super duper fond of the unit (gets the job done but is pretty jank), but I'm wondering of the Wyrd would fix these issues...
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Is the Wyrd more or less the same as a Teddy USB http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddyusb.html (http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddyusb.html), just cheapter?
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Is the Wyrd more or less the same as a Teddy USB http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddyusb.html (http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddyusb.html), just cheapter?
It reclocks the signal as well, although teddy does make good stuff.
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Yep.
Doesn't seem like they are exactly the same. The Wyrd in Schiit's words:
"Wyrd does two things: it replaces the noisy USB power from your computer with a low-noise linear power supply (no switchers here!) with precision regulators rated at 2.5uV RMS noise. (Or, as Mike Moffat says, “on the 8th day, God called National Semiconductor and told them how to make the best regulator in the world, the LM723."). This is literally 100,000x better than some of the USB ports we’ve measured, which have up to 500mV of high-frequency noise. It also uses a tightly spec’d crystal oscillator on its own filtered power supply for the USB repeater chip, for best possible stability."
So... it replaces fuchi power with mucho-clean power (and proly moar of it if needed) ala Teddy perhaps (different regulators though... Teddy = LM317 vs Wyrd = LM723)... AND it regenerates the data lines using a 20 ppm clock to replace fuchi data lines with mucho-clean data lines.
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Ok. I have good experience with Teddy Pardo, but I guess Ill wait for until Schiit have the adapter I need. For those interested the European 230V AC adapter should be available in about a month according to Schhit.
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Is the Wyrd more or less the same as a Teddy USB http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddyusb.html (http://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/teddyusb.html), just cheapter?
WOW. That's a pricey meatball. Nearly as much as the Bakoon battery.
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Could not distinguish any differences using the newest model Bricasti and its USB vs with wyrd. I'll try it out with something cheap like the Modi later.
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Mac Mini (w/ Teddy Pardo PSU) > Wyrd > MSB The Analog DAC > Dodd Audio Reference Preamp (Quad matched Tung-sol VT-231 tubes) > Firstwatt F5T > Tekton Design Pendragon Loudspeakers (All power by PS Audio Powerplant P5 )
Difference was very subtle but noticeable. I would say similar effect of the Empirical Audio Short Block (when it worked..). Tighter, more focused sound with a greater presence. Notes seem to pop more. I was pleasantly surprised that the Wyrd actually made a difference even though I know the MSB USB module is very good. I can only assume that the Mac Mini isn’t the cleanest source especially since the USB ports are all being used.
My speakers are naturally on the warmer side. They have some bass bloom that at times can be a bit much, lacking in overall refinement. It seems like the Wyrd is helping, but this maybe placebo.
PC > JCAT USB Card (w/ Linear PSU) > Wyrd > Bricasti M1 > Super 7 (modded) > HD800 / Paradox Slants
Tested this setup both with and without the JCAT card. With the JCAT in the chain the sound was way too analytical. Things became too digital sounding.. thin and lacking in emotion. I can only guess that this is the effects of too much filtering, re-clocking. Without the JCAT, difference is subtle but there. Blacker sound.. notes are less rounded and have better definition. There seems to be again, better focus and more clarity.
PC > Wyrd > Hugo > HD800 / Paradox Slants
Difference here was blatantly obvious. Less treble glare, a smoother more fluid sound.
Overall, I would definitely recommend the Wyrd if you are using something not optimized for music playback. I’m talking about anything from a Dell desktop to a Mac Mini. I would especially recommend this if you are using a laptop with a HD. I tried using an old MBP (2007) model that had a 500gb HD, and the differences were stark.
I wouldn’t recommend this if you already have a good source, optimized for music playback. I doubt you would hear any positive results and in some cases negative results if you are using a CAPS, Vortex, etc.
This is Schiit but definitely not poo.
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PC > Wyrd > Gungnir > Virtue ONE.3 (130w) > Overnight Sensations MT
> UHA-6s mk ii (ADA4627) > UERMs
At first listen, I had the feeling that there was some sort of voodoo magic going on! I couldn't pin point it down at first, but after some A/Bing, I was able to pinpoint down the differences. Notes were a little bit less smeared, I don't think there was any difference in treble stridency or anything with the gungnir, and sometimes I felt like drums and bass hit just a tad bit harder.
I'll give it a try with Christian's NFB-10es2 and odac this weekend. I Can try with the dx90 too, but the drivers are too unreliable for me to want to play music through it. Will also try the Wyrd with my Surface pro 1; there might be more differences since the surface's single USB port probably isn't as clean.
Overall I think the Wyrd is a nice little upgrade for the gungnir at just $100. The effects are subtle, but I think they change the sound enough for it to be worth it.
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PC > JCAT USB Card (w/ Linear PSU) > Wyrd > Bricasti M1 > Super 7 (modded) > HD800 / Paradox Slants
Very interesting and good to know, thanks. Looks like I won't be needing to add the Wyrd to my VortexBox.
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Much deja vu here. What y'all are describing as the positive effects of Wyrd sound an awful lot like what I heard when I started using the iFi iUSB with my Concero about 18 months ago. For less than half the price.
May have to spring for one to use with GO 450.
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One reason to get the Wyrd, sound quality aside, is that it works with the iPad and the Geek Out 450. Maybe a powered USB hub will do the same thing. I need to try that.
But I just tried:
iPad 2nd gen -> cheap generic camera connection kit adapter ->Wyrd -> Geek Out 450 and that worked great.
iPad Mini -> generic(non-Apple) lightning to USB adapter ->Wyrd -> Geek OUt 450 works great too.
Both sounded pretty amazing after a very short listen.
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Anyone have a picture of the inside of the unit to post?
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Anyone have a picture of the inside of the unit to post?
Ask Schiit, they are on here.
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Judging from the positive feedback from here, the Wyrd should improve on my PWD Nuwave USB connection.
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Judging from the positive feedback from here, the Wyrd should improve on my PWD Nuwave USB connection.
Yeah I'm waiting to get one eventually to test out with my PWD since USB is it's Achilles heel.
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Test #2
- Laptop --usb--> AGD M7
- Laptop --usb--> Wyrd --usb--> AGD M7
- Laptop --usb--> Wyrd --usb--> OR5 --i2s --> AGD M7
Setup 1
M7 running the firmware version prior to the current one (it's June 29, 2014). This firmware seemed to go to some length to correct the tonal oddness of the prior M7 USB. The prior firmware gave the M7 a certain stridency and overly thick bass. Sort of a U curve in effect. Also, stage depth while distant was extremely shallow. This firmware increases the depth of the stage somewhat. The U curve tonal response is now gone. The bass thickness is still there, however the treble stridency has largely been corrected, resulting in a more consistent, perhaps dark tonal response.
However, all rest the sucky things about the built in M7 USB are still there. A tendency toward muddy thick mushy unclear bass. Blobular indistinct stage and still somewhat a shallow depth. Poor resolution and microdynamics. Grey background. Still what I could consider a GOOD DAC, a good PCM1704 sound, but this just doesn't cut it for me.
Setup 2
Wow! Holy Schiit. Blackground becomes black. Things now in focus. Precision in note rendering. No blurriness of the built in USB. More detail. Could this be better than the OR5? Or maybe almost as good... I listen longer and I realize a stronger than usual "ssssss" in Glen Frey's voice. This is exactly the turboclock effect I mentioned earlier in the OR5 thread (references and link above.) I know the M7 does has this tendency to have some stridency in the USB despite whatever firmware, so perhaps the Wyrd simply brings this out more along with all the other good things. Still, it's not something which is a huge chance. We are still splitting atoms here.
As an aside, just to make things clear, I now feel the turboclock on the OR5 is a good idea with the M7 as long as the OR5 has a good power supply, just not necessarily with the PWD2 that I owned or at least without a good power supply for the OR5.
Setup 3
So now I'm getting worried. Thinking whether if I should even make this post so I can dump my OR5 on HF or the 'gon before everyone knows.
Well, guess what? It's not even close. The OR5 (with the Wyrd in the chain) simply destroys the other setups. The precision of space, stability of images, "centering" as Maxvla likes to call it is just on another level. The microdynamic swings, the nuances, the finesse, the microdetail. The OR5 / Wyrd is just on another level. No stridency. Just delicacy. Can barely tell the M7 even has "PCM1704 bass" (yes, there is such a thing!).
Final Comments
Well, that's it folks. I'll try to dig up some other DACs to try out. I do know that the Wyrd is a good match with the Gungnir. Let's say I have heard Wyrd+Gungnir at some other time before and can vouch for that. (Ask Anax too for another data point.) OR5 is overkill for Gungnir (Gungnir won't scale and OR5 is x2 the price of the Gungnir), but Wyrd is just about right at $99. Definitely more effective than the Audiophileo AP1 without the PS (which didn't do anything.)
Would it be resonable to say that if my ears don't notice any audioble difference between M7 via USB32 (w/ latest firmware/drivers) with or without a Wyrd then I probably should save money skipping the OR5 ?
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37.7% reasonable.
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I just added a wyrd to my PWD usb source connection.
I can now quickly switch back and forth from cat7 to usb.
I have them level matched and can switch directly from one to the other using the remote.
Thus far with only 2 hrs on the wyrd, the differences between these 2 input source paths has been reduced even further.
I still have one more tweak to the usb 'delivery system' to make.
But I suspect (or hope) that with more hrs on the wyrd and with additional improvements, the usb will 'catch up' to the cat7 signal path.
I'll feed wyrd and run it 24/7 for a while and monitor the changes.
JJ
ps I'm tempted to open it up and snap some pics but I'll wait until I commit to buying it first…
But I must say it is surprisingly heavy for such a tiny device.
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Any expectation that the X-Sabre may improve from the Wyrd? It doesn't use power from the 5V.
Also should we expect to need the Wyrd with the Yggdrasil? Or is there a Wyrd baked in?
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Any expectation that the X-Sabre may improve from the Wyrd? It doesn't use power from the 5V.
Also should we expect to need the Wyrd with the Yggdrasil? Or is there a Wyrd baked in?
Possibly since it does more than just isolate power from the bus.
Last I heard baked in.
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@marvey: I saw you post in the turntable thread and the shout box about the Wyrd and Modi combo.
If you have a chance, can you elaborate on your impressions? I have never heard a Modi and I am not sure what people think of the Modi pre-Wyrd. (I guess I should search) But I am curious how much difference the Wyrd makes with the Modi.
How does the Wyrd+Modi compare to the Bifrost Uber USB 2?
Also, not sure if you have any experience with the HRT microStreamer, but I would be curious to know how the Wyrd+Modi combo compares to the microStreamer.
Thanks,
-Darin
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Any expectation that the X-Sabre may improve from the Wyrd? It doesn't use power from the 5V.
Also should we expect to need the Wyrd with the Yggdrasil? Or is there a Wyrd baked in?
I would be really interrested in this too. I run mine directly from a laptop from a USB 3 port, and while the usb on the X-sabre is really good I think the ports on my laptop are really bad :P
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I can't comment on Wyrd with X-Sabre but I have one connected to a Bifrost which also doesn't use power from the 5V. I haven't really been able to distinguish any changes in the frequency response or overall sound (with HE-500) but my ears might not be as sensitive as some on this board. However, I previously had some background noise that I was pretty sure that was DAC related which has now gone away completely. It was already very small but enough that the background feels much blacker when listening to music at reasonable levels. That's all I wanted the Wyrd to do so I'm pretty happy with it overall.
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I purchased my Wyrd for the same reason as 'thatguy' as I was also having some background USB noise leak downstream despite the fact that my DAC (Yulong DA8) also does not draw from the 5V. Cutting off the 5V leads on the USB cable did not do anything about the noise so I took a plunge on the Wyrd.
I am happy to say that this noise is now gone and the background is dark as night, so mission accomplished. As far as sonics go, I haven't done much in ways of A/Bing so I'm not confident in commenting about that.
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Any word on when or if they plan to add EU version?
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Not that I know but it looks like you should in the least be able to buy the appropriate power supply for your country after the fact. Just need to right specs for it!
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I thought I heard word on an EU version so I was holding for it, if not I would just get it straight away. Preferably would like to use it without a step down adapter, EU/UK ones are a pain in a butt to search for if you are not ordering a bunch.
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Not sure if this was asked earlier, but does anyone know if the Wyrd carries power? I use a Wavelength Wavelink as my USB/SPDIF converter, and it has an internal battery that's constantly charged via USB.
I do get occasional pops and clicks when using my computer while listening to music, so I'm thinking this might be just the device to eliminate that. I'm just concerned that it won't charge my Wavelink if the USB doesn't carry power.
If it cleans up the audio as much as it has for you guys, then that's another nice benefit :)
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Not sure if this was asked earlier, but does anyone know if the Wyrd carries power? I use a Wavelength Wavelink as my USB/SPDIF converter, and it has an internal battery that's constantly charged via USB.
I do get occasional pops and clicks when using my computer while listening to music, so I'm thinking this might be just the device to eliminate that. I'm just concerned that it won't charge my Wavelink if the USB doesn't carry power.
If it cleans up the audio as much as it has for you guys, then that's another nice benefit :)
The Wyrd definitely supplies power to the USB port. That's part of the point of the Wyrd is to provide cleaner power to the USB DAC. I use it with USB powered DAC's like the Geek Out 450 and an HRT microStreamer.
I don't see any reason why it would not charge the Wavelink.
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Awesome, thanks! Just wanted to be completely sure. Think I'll be picking this up soon.
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@marvey: I saw you post in the turntable thread and the shout box about the Wyrd and Modi combo.
If you have a chance, can you elaborate on your impressions? I have never heard a Modi and I am not sure what people think of the Modi pre-Wyrd. (I guess I should search) But I am curious how much difference the Wyrd makes with the Modi.
How does the Wyrd+Modi compare to the Bifrost Uber USB 2?
Also, not sure if you have any experience with the HRT microStreamer, but I would be curious to know how the Wyrd+Modi combo compares to the microStreamer.
Thanks,
-Darin
Don't have Bifrost on hand for direct comparison, but I suspect Bifrost is still better, even moreso with the Wyrd in-line.
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@marvey: I saw you post in the turntable thread and the shout box about the Wyrd and Modi combo.
If you have a chance, can you elaborate on your impressions? I have never heard a Modi and I am not sure what people think of the Modi pre-Wyrd. (I guess I should search) But I am curious how much difference the Wyrd makes with the Modi.
How does the Wyrd+Modi compare to the Bifrost Uber USB 2?
Also, not sure if you have any experience with the HRT microStreamer, but I would be curious to know how the Wyrd+Modi combo compares to the microStreamer.
Thanks,
-Darin
Don't have Bifrost on hand for direct comparison, but I suspect Bifrost is still better, even moreso with the Wyrd in-line.
I have an Uber Frost 2 but no wyrd. Used to have a Modi but gave it up for the Frost. Bad idea in retrospect I guess.
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Very disappointing to be lurking on here for months trying to scavenge on the promised impressions/reflections that never materialize. I will put my money where my mouth is and purchase one and I promise, I'll leave some impressions, lol.
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Very disappointing to be lurking on here for months trying to scavenge on the promised impressions/reflections that never materialize. I will put my money where my mouth is and purchase one and I promise, I'll leave some impressions, lol.
Did you not read the last 7 pages of the thread? A good chunk of us posted impressions. Usually brief and to the point - this isn't 6moons.
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That. And stuff sprinkled throughout other threads and some places on HF.
I think people are too busy enjoying to worry about posting.
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I can further state that after ≈750+hrs the gap between cat7 and usb is narrower still.
I still haven't performed my 'experiment' yet but hope to soon.
JJ
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Plenty of impressions here, dunno what you're on about. I would have been tempted to get a Wyrd if it weren't for Schiit not having the power adapter in 220V.
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I don't remember anyone's saying it made a major difference. It doesn't even seem to be categorically good--more system dependent. Impressions are like that, especially with tweaks.
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Maybe I just don't wasn't reading very well, but the first couple of posts in the thread left me with the same kind of feeling that I used to get reading IBM product brochures back in working days: OK, it'll revolutionise my business, turn my company data upside down and inside out; make us all into mega managers, but WTF IS IT?
So I looked at Schiit's product page.
Mostly, I'm managing to keep my audiophlia under control. I'm not quite there yet, but, you know, I can handle it. Really. But I can't help worrying about the power supply to my little ODAC, and this little box is only $99 (plus whatever it costs me to get it to India) and $99 is within my budget for experimental toys (The ODAC was an experimental toy that seems to have stuck) so... having read the last and first pages of this thread, I'll browse the other 5. Maybe I'll add to cart p:3
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From everything I've read, I think you should just go ahead and try it out and report back with any changes you find.
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Hmmm Not yet available for 230v :boom:
<a few moments later...>
This, by very prompt email response to my enquiry, from Schiit themselves:
Not yet, we’re still waiting for 230V wall-warts. We should have them in a couple of weeks.
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Lol. My post was in jest. Simply testing the waters out here as it was my first post. Also, I did order the Wyrd and do intend on posting as to whether it improved things or not.
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Funnay :-\
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Hopefully, Y'all can positive rep me back to even things out? Lol.
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Hopefully, Y'all can positive rep me back to even things out? Lol.
After you post those impressions.
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Hopefully, Y'all can positive rep me back to even things out? Lol.
yes, post impressions first. -10% improvement would be acceptable. Placebo, I can't hear, this is BS, are also acceptable. we've already found a few instances where it wasn't good.
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Lol. Way to treat a new member. I will be sure to pass this hazing with flying colors. It should be delivered on Tuesday, so be sure to tune in by the end of the week. Have your positive reps on standby.
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By the way, Purrin, your DAC comparo on headfi is what led me to this site. Quality work, which also pushed me to purchase the Gungnir.
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Lol. Way to treat a new member. I will be sure to pass this hazing with flying colors. It should be delivered on Tuesday, so be sure to tune in by the end of the week. Have your positive reps on standby.
You were kinda asking for it with that first post of yours.
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Not yet, we’re still waiting for 230V wall-warts. We should have them in a couple of weeks.
Now I find out, on HF, that they have been sending this same email out for a while. By whenever I'll probably have moved on to thinking about some other gadget p;)
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Have your positive reps on standby.
Watch out, I think a certain Texas governor has attracted criminal charges for a similar premise...
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Lol. Way to treat a new member. I will be sure to pass this hazing with flying colors. It should be delivered on Tuesday, so be sure to tune in by the end of the week. Have your positive reps on standby.
You were kinda asking for it with that first post of yours.
I got my just desserts.
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Lol. Way to treat a new member. I will be sure to pass this hazing with flying colors. It should be delivered on Tuesday, so be sure to tune in by the end of the week. Have your positive reps on standby.
We don't really haze here contrary to public perception. Yes, I publicly branded a few with a scarlet letter, but to only those who came here simply because HF kicked them out. But honestly, if someone came here and asked, what's a good $800 setup, we'd answer that seriously.
Interested to know your thoughts on Wyrd and what associated equipment you used. I'm not sure I liked the effect with the M7's stock USB, but I did like it with the Gungnir and OR5.
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I'm not sure I liked the effect with the M7's stock USB, but I did like it with the Gungnir and OR5.
Interesting, mind explaining?
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More focus, precision, delineation, but AGD-M7 via stock USB has some stridency. Stridency + focused sound (Wyrd) = focused stridency.
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More focus, precision, delineation, but AGD-M7 via stock USB has some stridency. Stridency + focused sound (Wyrd) = focused stridency.
Hmm, I think i see what you mean. Basically the Wyrd, in doing its job, let too much of the M7's (USB) signature flow through, which, in this particular case, wasn't a good thing. My chain involves PC/laptop - USB - Gungnir - BH Crack/Speedball - HD650. However, I've been really happy with the sound with PC as source, but there is a significant drop in clarity and performance using my laptop. Everything is more foggy, with reduced clarity, that I am hoping the Wyrd will solve. If it improves things with the PC setup, that'd be a welcome bonus, and I may just have to purchase a second one. From the descriptions here so far, it looks like most USB setups do benefit, to varied degrees, from the Wyrd.
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So I'm not the only one who experienced a negative change with the Wyrd...
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The Wyrd is in the house. I was taken by surprise by how tiny it is. It is tiny compared to the Gungnir. Is it the same size as the Modi/Magni/Vali etc? Been listening to it all afternoon, but will reserve reactions for later.
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yep, modi/magni/vali/wyrd share the same small steel case
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So I'm not the only one who experienced a negative change with the Wyrd...
I didn't hear anything negative with the GO 450, but I certainly didn't hear $99 worth of improvement.
As long as a have it for a couple more days, I may try it with the Herus and Nano iDSD and see if there is any "there" there.
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Any help with posting pics would be welcome, or do I have to reach a specific post threshold first?
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actually this doesn't work and I couldn't figure it out haha.. maybe just upload the pic to a third party like imgur.com and then post the url here
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wun4mp011dotf4/Screenshot%202014-08-19%2015.20.13.png
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We like to know you more before allowing people to post. Server and bandwidth is modest compared to HF. The revenue from the stupid ads is barely enough to pay for the recently upgraded server and bandwidth.
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We like to know you more before allowing people to post. Server and bandwidth is modest compared to HF. The revenue from the stupid ads is barely enough to pay for the recently upgraded server and bandwidth.
No worries, that makes sense. Hope you don't mind direct links. Here goes:
http://s796.photobucket.com/user/adamaley/library/WYRD
Thanks, Uncola.
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I've got a Wyrd/Modi/Vali arriving tomorrow. Will be listening via noisy PC vs SBT/EDO. Should be fun.
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So I'm not the only one who experienced a negative change with the Wyrd...
I didn't hear anything negative with the GO 450, but I certainly didn't hear $99 worth of improvement.
As long as a have it for a couple more days, I may try it with the Herus and Nano iDSD and see if there is any "there" there.
You need a better amp section. Can you run them LO into anything? If you want you can borrow my Leckerton. The LO is more meaty and dynamic than the HO.
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Ok so I've got Wyrd inserted with 2) 1.5m usb cables that are now properly cooked but still need more burn in hours.
The gap between the cat7 path to the PWD and the usb path, is virtually nil.
I am hearing a slight shift in coherence and cohesion when making the change one to the other, but it's so close now and since more hours are needed to settle the cables in, that perhaps in due course, the usb will be superior to cat7, in terms of all the indicators I use to figure what is 'better'.
This is a first, for me.
JJ
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The Wyrd is available only as 115V. If I used it with a step-down transformer (India - 220V) would the transformer introduce additional noise? Is this even worth worrying about?
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Why not just wait until they have 220V?
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Why not just wait until they have 220V?
It seems like its been forever and they always said a couple of weeks. I'm still waiting for it though.
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Why not just wait until they have 220V?
It seems like its been forever and they always said a couple of weeks. I'm still waiting for it though.
On a related note, they promised shots of the internals a month ago, said again they would be up this last weekend, but it still hasn't been posted yet. I don't see how it's so difficult to get a picture up, but my guess is the wyrd isn't a high priority.
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Why not just wait until they have 220V?
It seems like its been forever and they always said a couple of weeks. I'm still waiting for it though.
On a related note, they promised shots of the internals a month ago, said again they would be up this last weekend, but it still hasn't been posted yet. I don't see how it's so difficult to get a picture up, but my guess is the wyrd isn't a high priority.
Geez, here ya go.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ifitkejl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/PqBpTmml.jpg)
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Oohh, Echigo. One of the most memorable hangovers of my life was at a friend's wedding when the two of us had about 60 of the 500ml bottles in a 12-hour period.
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Balance has been restored to the force. Thanks Anax.
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That would have been hilarious had the internals of the Wyrd consisted of an red board populated with a single LM7805.
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That would have been hilarious had the internals of the Wyrd consisted of an red board populated with a single LM7805.
Shhh...don't tell everyone that we sent you and Anax the "special" version.
Seriously, though, we'll get to the 230V and the photos--we've just been distracted for a bit.
And the idiot wall-wart supplier sent everything via ship, rather than some by air, so the 230V is delayed. But the ship's in port now, so it should not be long. We hope. Maybe. Customs willing. Perhaps. It'll be done when it's done. Now you know a small piece my insanity.
The photos? Soon. When I get a chance. When I actually find a loose board kicking around. I love it when I say, "I'll try" and someone takes it as "this is a certified, witnessed deadline that will absolutely be met, come hell or high water." I suppose it's best to stop trying.
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Indeed, I kinda understand the woes of shipping from Chinese suppliers. Decided to hold on after the mail you guys sent me. I had mails from China that did not reach till a couple of months.
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Just be happy that customs doesn't hold and inspect your container...4 times this year already...
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Just be happy that customs doesn't hold and inspect your container...4 times this year already...
Yeah, happened to us on the last wall-wart run. Three weeks from Long Beach to Santa Clarita.
Usually it's same week, though....we'll see.
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At least wall-warts aren't super fragile. Sucks to pay them involuntarily to waste your time and break your shit.
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I lost interest already. :)p18
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The Wyrd is available only as 115V. If I used it with a step-down transformer (India - 220V) would the transformer introduce additional noise? Is this even worth worrying about?
If you can't wait, it will sound fine using a transformer. I do it all the time for lots of gear here in the UK, including my Wyrd.
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I have an OR5 + M7 incoming. I wonder if it's better to use Wyrd or Short Block in front of the OR5. My understanding is that Wyrd will replace the 5V with cleaner power and re-clock the USB signal, while the Short Block simply cuts out the 5V without touching the USB signal. Or, would it be too much to use both?
Thanks.
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Short block cuts +5V and also filters the USB data lines (conjecture). I think a few people had issues with the Short block.
Wyrd cleans +5V (regulated power circuit) and buffers and reclocks USB data lines. Therefore Wyrd provides a turboclock like effect. I ordered OR5 without turboclock and only the Hynes regulator upgrade for the i2s output.
Wyrd is $100. I like cheap.
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Yeah I did read about the short block causing problems for OR5 requiring a repair. I wonder if it's caused by computer and OR5 not using the same ac outlet. Anyway, I do like the idea of Wyrd and I'm using it with Uberfrost in my 2nd system.
The used OR5 already has turbo clock, hope it's not too much of a good thing with Wyrd in the chain. It doesn't have Hynes upgrade for i2s though. For $350, is that a worthy upgrade you think?
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No idea on the Hynes upgrade. I've never heard an OR5 without it.
s1 / Ruben said the Wyrd and OR5 with turboclocks were OK, but once he added the special USB boards, it was too much.
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I have an OR5 + M7 incoming. I wonder if it's better to use Wyrd or Short Block in front of the OR5. My understanding is that Wyrd will replace the 5V with cleaner power and re-clock the USB signal, while the Short Block simply cuts out the 5V without touching the USB signal. Or, would it be too much to use both?
Thanks.
The main purpose of the SB is to act as a common mode choke, which is why it has those circuit requirements, the power cutting is simply a byproduct of that. Since the OR5 doesn't use the Vbus line, it won't benefit from the improved power quality as provided by the Wyrd, iUSB, AQVOX, etc, but improvements to the data stream may provide an improvement. The Short Block doesn't do anything on that front.
A third route you could go rather than spending the money on both is to skip both the SB and the Wyrd and use a dedicated USB output card instead, such as the PPA or JCAT, that is assuming you're using a desktop as a source rather than a laptop.
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still waiting for 230v version, any updates? did anything happen with the ship T__T
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I have moolah with them atm, be patient man when it is ready to ship it will ship. Reckon customs is holding them up, it would suck to be Schiit as well.
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still waiting for 230v version, any updates? did anything happen with the ship T__T
Wondering the same thing, I want to try this little thingy!
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Just saying, the euro version is up!
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Finally got some listening time with the Wyrd. Some down and dirty impressions with my PWD mk1>2 whose USB implementation is notoriously known to be the weakest link input wise.
Without the Wyrd, the PWD USB sounds very nebulous and lacking in dynamicism. It even has a tinge of greyness or veil to it versus the other inputs on the DAC. Using the Wyrd imaging, dynamics and contrast all improve. However, compared to the coaxial input on the PWD which is my reference point for the device, the Wyrd still sounds more compressed dynamically and less distinct in imaging. Not as clean and clear. This seems to result in a sort of plastic like timbre over most of the tracks used no matter the instrument. Female vocals also come off a bit nasal. If anyone has done extensive comparisons of different capacitor materials and construction, I liken the sound signature to some of Teflon based caps out there. Feeding the PWD coax from my reference Denon transport the instruments are more distinct, clean, clear and maintain their own unique timbres thus contrasting against each other through the various scores. Detail, air, space and separation are also better.
That said, the Wyrd is far better than the piss poor USB implementation on the PWD I never listen to my PWD via USB, it's just that bad for my preferences and references. The Wyrd does make it usable for me and is certainly worth the price/performance ratio as a result on the PWD. On other DACs the jury may be out still, so as usual YMMV.
Chain: PC (Win 8.1Pro>JRiver 19 (PWD USB ASIO) via memory playback>Wyrd>PS Audio PWD mk1 to mk2 upgrade>Eddie Current Leviathan (original Tangos)>HD800 (Anax modded v. 2.5x).
Tracks: specific Eagles, Madonna, Scorpions
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The wyrd is now finally available with europlugs and whatnot, props to Schiit for finally making it happen. I will buy one eventually and see what it does to the ODAC. :)p13
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The wyrd is now finally available with europlugs
I read that as earplugs! I was mightily puzzled!
But what I want is a Britplug*...
*Not to be read as buttplug.
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Nick, there is an UK plug. I'm ordering two for myself. Wanna join me?
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Yes, actually I noticed that today! Selection of warts for different countries.
No, I'll pass this time. Replacing one dead AC machine, and two new grandchildren (additional, not replacement) is taking up the budget for the rest of this year :)p2
Actually, this has caught my attention: Olimex USB-ISO (https://www.olimex.com/Products/USB-Modules/USB-ISO/).
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Actually, this has caught my attention: Olimex USB-ISO (https://www.olimex.com/Products/USB-Modules/USB-ISO/).
I'm using the Olimex. It has trouble being recognized as a USB 2.0 device. It's 1.0 only for my W7 machine. On OSX, it's recognized as USB 2.0 but it only reaches until 16/48. It doesn't do 24bits or higher than 48khz. It does seem to have a positive effect on sound though, but I might as well have been describing the Synergistic HOT.
Maintaining new grandchildren seems pricey. Better to save money for that.
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Hmmm....can't you just sell the children?? Seems like win-win to me. :-\
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Yes, actually I noticed that today! Selection of warts for different countries.
No, I'll pass this time. Replacing one dead AC machine, and two new grandchildren (additional, not replacement) is taking up the budget for the rest of this year :)p2
Actually, this has caught my attention: Olimex USB-ISO (https://www.olimex.com/Products/USB-Modules/USB-ISO/).
Congratulations.
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Hmmm....can't you just sell the children?? Seems like win-win to me. :-\
No no, that's an unsustainable business model. Put the children to work instead!
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Hmmm....can't you just sell the children?? Seems like win-win to me. :-\
No no, that's an unsustainable business model. Put the children to work instead!
I do like your long term strategic thinking on the matter. All we'd need is a proper shelter from social services, local police and potentially the ICJ. Imagine too after a hard day's labor those tired kids would look perfect for shooting infomercials to rake in the charitable donations!
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... Imagine too after a hard day's labor those tired kids would look perfect for shooting infomercials to rake in the charitable donations!
Whoa! There's a man who knows how to maximise his assets! :wheel: :money:
I'm using the Olimex. It has trouble being recognized as a USB 2.0 device. It's 1.0 only for my W7 machine. On OSX, it's recognized as USB 2.0 but it only reaches until 16/48. It doesn't do 24bits or higher than 48khz. It does seem to have a positive effect on sound though, but I might as well have been describing the Synergistic HOT.
Maintaining new grandchildren seems pricey. Better to save money for that.
Investment for the future. I'm muttering into the young ears that they must buy their grandparents HD800s and stuff. Will it work? Did I ever buy anything for my grandparents!
But... interesting news about the Olimex. I'm in Linux world here, and anything that is not strictly compliant might easily be given a miss. Anyway, no hurry, but... you know how it is, sometimes the urge to buy a gadget comes on strong, and if there is something low-cost ready on the list, it might save me from buying something much more expensive and marriage damaging.
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I do like your long term strategic thinking on the matter. All we'd need is a proper shelter from social services, local police and potentially the ICJ. Imagine too after a hard day's labor those tired kids would look perfect for shooting infomercials to rake in the charitable donations!
That's why you run a home/family business. Then the kids are volunteering/helping out. You can even claim to home school them so they can "work" full time!
*says the guy who grew up in an Asian household which at one point had both the stereotypical cornerstore and family run restaurant.
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Okay as some of you guys may(or not) have known, I have a problem where the ODAC would loose lock on the signal whenever sample rates are changed or maybe even randomly. Also, even if there is no glitching, notes sometimes sound muddy on the first connection and I would have to reconnect before it sounds clean again.
To that end, I have tried to use a Teradak isolator which helped but did not completely eradicate the problem. With the Wyrd, the problem is officially a thing of the past. Not confirmed but I have the impression that the ODAC's transients are quicker too.
On the measurements end, there maybe a very slight decrease in distortion and jitters though its hard to tell whether its actual or experiment variability. For most of the time on my 0404 in loopback, there is no change in any of the results. There are times where just connecting the ODAC to the laptop, there may be a lot of jitter on playback but with the Wyrd, I have not gotten any of that.
Verdict: Not poo
YMMV seriously, there maybe some setups where the Wyrd makes little to no difference. Will be testing this with my NFB DAC to see if it miraculously improves.
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I have a problem where the ODAC ... ... ... even if there is no glitching, notes sometimes sound muddy on the first connection and I would have to reconnect before it sounds clean again.
That is very interesting, because I have a similar experierience which may or may not be related, with mine.
I'm listening to music, and the life is not there. There is no "toe-tapping" element and I'm more waiting for the end of the piece than listening to it. Not sure if muddy describes it, as it is hard to get into each others heads with the words, but it might do.
Thing is, I'd been blaming the computer up to now, as the situation would often get fixed with a reboot.
With the Wyrd, the problem is officially a thing of the past. Not confirmed but I have the impression that the ODAC's transients are quicker too.
Then I just got my interest back in the product! Thanks.
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I have a problem where the ODAC ... ... ... even if there is no glitching, notes sometimes sound muddy on the first connection and I would have to reconnect before it sounds clean again.
That is very interesting, because I have a similar experierience which may or may not be related, with mine.
I'm listening to music, and the life is not there. There is no "toe-tapping" element and I'm more waiting for the end of the piece than listening to it. Not sure if muddy describes it, as it is hard to get into each others heads with the words, but it might do.
Thing is, I'd been blaming the computer up to now, as the situation would often get fixed with a reboot.
With the Wyrd, the problem is officially a thing of the past. Not confirmed but I have the impression that the ODAC's transients are quicker too.
Then I just got my interest back in the product! Thanks.
I used to have the same thing with my old laptop and the ODAC. I remember writing notes to purrin and LFF when it came out that the ODAC kept changing sound signatures. I'm sure they thought I was crazy at the time. Took me some time to get proper impressions of it.
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I used to have the same thing with my old laptop and the ODAC. I remember writing notes to purrin and LFF when it came out that the ODAC kept changing sound signatures. I'm sure they thought I was crazy at the time. Took me some time to get proper impressions of it.
It would be the ODAC.
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EDIT: Turns out I have been using 16 bit test tones for Jtest, so here are ones done with the ODAC and 24 bit JTest tones. Test repeated multiple times with more or less the same results. Woah, differences.
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I just pulled the lever on a Wyrd + Modi combination. Nice to finally have the right adapter available.
It should keep my going until Yggy (which also requires all sorts of new cabling; I am not in a rush).
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Would Wyrd+modi be an upgrade over the HRT MSII?
I'm guessing it's more of a side-grade deal.
I'm mostly interested in the Bifrost, but that's a large chunk of change for my budget.
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Ok so this truly is Wyrd… :)p1
I can play Media Center using 2 players at the same time.
So I have the 'standard' player running out the usb and the 'alternate' player running out cat7 playing the same tracks at the same time.
This allows me to switch back and forth as they play.
I have the Wyrd playing into the PWD-II from my Mac Pro and the cat7 is direct in via the router.
Both signal paths are using AudioQuest 10% silver cables.
Well, the usb cable from the Wyrd to the PWD0II has that cable. The usb cable from the Mac to the Wyrd is a 'decent' (as in not the cheapest cable I could find) 'regular' usb cable.
This is the Wyrd part…
It's like there is a shift in the FR 'curve' between these 2 digital paths.
The cat7 has more 'thickness' is more bass 'heavy' with a (by comparison) slight reduction in top end energy.
The usb has (by comparison) ever so slightly more details everywhere but slightly less 'heft' or impact, which is most noticeable in the bass. But the bass is slightly more detailed.
Also by comparison the cat7 has like 1/2 of a 'veil', which can also be thought of as having more of a harmonically 'rich' layer to each 'voice', which can also be described as having a bigger sense of its presence in the acoustic sound field, or collectively, there is more of a sense of depth and space to the entire sound stage.
Where as each 'voice' from the usb path is more tightly focused with slightly more inner detail.
Now these differences are very slight and my ears quickly adapt to each 'version', so it's the initial sonic changes right after switching inputs on the PWD-II where particular 'voices' have these differences and are easiest to hear.
Last note, I cooked the usb cable on an 'industrial strength' cooker and only then did these 2 data paths come close to this degree of similarity.
I'll need to spend more time in comparison mode to determine which data path I prefer.
And right now I could describe these 2 paths as 'euphonic' (tube harmonics like emphasis) vs. 'accurate' (ss low distortion harmonics).
Who would have thought that these 2 data paths would behave in this way or could act like rolling (tubes) cables?
I mean it's a digital stream and these sorts of things shouldn't be happening.
Should they?
JJ
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I mean it's a digital stream and these sorts of things shouldn't be happening.
Should they?
JJ
There's a misconception that if you cut open a digital cable while music is playing, you'll see "001011101010010010011" inside of it. That's not how it works. It's an electrical signal like any other, and is subject to impedance mismatches, interference, etc.
If you connect the same source to a DAC via Toslink, coax, and AES, you may get three different sound signatures.
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I mean it's a digital stream and these sorts of things shouldn't be happening.
Should they?
JJ
We've talked about this many times here. To repeat as Dave and others have mentioned, 95% of your so-called 'digital' stream occurs in an analog verse. The part that is digital is the part you'll never ever see or touch. Unless your name is Tron.
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95% of your so-called 'digital' stream occurs in an analog verse.
None the less, the same bits arrive at the destination unless something is actually faulty. (which is always a possibility of course)
I'm not trying to deny that people hear differences: my theory is that something different may be happening in the different USB/SPDIF/etc circuits within the DAC.
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95% of your so-called 'digital' stream occurs in an analog verse.
None the less, the same bits arrive at the destination unless something is actually faulty. (which is always a possibility of course)
I'm not trying to deny that people hear differences: my theory is that something different may be happening in the different USB/SPDIF/etc circuits within the DAC.
Not necessarily. You are still thinking of 10111000101 down a cable. Doesn't work like that, it's much more complicated with jitter, noise, impedances, phase, lots of stuff going on. Just look at how much digital stuff is NOT bit-perfect. You have interpolation and all sorts of compensation techniques guessing to fill in the blanks.
Just compare a digital SPDIF cable with proper impedance spec to a widly off spec one. What difference does it make? Just the same 1's and 0's right? Heh, no.
My favorite is people confusing reproduction of real time dynamic music with sending a fax or still image to a printer. ::)
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You are still thinking of 10111000101 down a cable. Doesn't work like that
I think that it does.
It is true that it is not a series of digital on/off states going down that cable, it is a variable voltage. People like to say that that makes it "analogue," but that voltage, according to its level, is understood as "0," "1," or "not understood."
That is the difference between digital and analogue communication. There are no other values but 0 and 1 and anything else must be an error.
My favorite is people confusing reproduction of real time dynamic music with sending a fax or still image to a printer.
Or sending a music file to a hard disc? Down a USB cable?
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I think that it does.
It is true that it is not a series of digital on/off states going down that cable, it is a variable voltage. People like to say that that makes it "analogue," but that voltage, according to its level, is understood as "0," "1," or "not understood."
That is the difference between digital and analogue communication. There are no other values but 0 and 1 and anything else must be an error.
By that logic, these two digital signals must therefore be identical. Both are bit-perfect, and are either a 0 or a 1.
(http://www.rme-audio.de/images/techinfo/aes50ns2.gif)
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They could be identical.
It actually depends on the timing of the 'decision point' where you let the 'circuit behind it' decide what is 0 and 1.
This is always a very short (clock pulse edge) point where a voltage above a certain value is determined as a 1 and below it as a '0'.
There is no value in-between.
If for instance the timing points were to be the left (both are '0' if low represents a '0' there)and right side of the screen (both are '1' if high represents a '1' there) AND the trigger of the decision makers clock is (derived from) the blue trace the signals the analog waveforms represent are exactly the same AND the jitter in the yellow trace is 'removed'.
It isn't wise to derive the clock from the upper trace though as that jitter would be on the output signal.
Most older DACs did just that (well via a PLL that had a certain reaction time/filtering).
When jitter is sooo severe it toggles bits there will be lots of other problems as well.
The whole 'sounding different' discussion has nothing to do with bit perfect or wrong bits arriving or bits changing sign nor the analog values of the signal representing those 2 levels.
It would be related to clock recovery issues in order to prevent buffer over/underrun in a cheap way without too much latency.
Funnily enough all the single signal digital signals do clock recovery be them USB, SPDIF or other protocols.
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What is not funny are the different USB, SPDIF and other connections sounding different per implemementation or different cables using the same interface making the same bits sound different even with clock recovery. I dont find it funny when shit that is supposed to not matter does.
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I think perhaps some of the differences may not necessarily lie in how clean and beautiful 1's and 0's look in the scope, but perhaps how different non-ideal issues couple into the analog circuitry among other things.
Jitter at the receiving end of a DAC may not be a big deal in terms of properly decoding values. But residual jitter having an impact on the DAC output clock might be a different story. Noise from a noisy power source coupling into the traces of the analog section of the board is also perhaps a bit problematic and not necessarily negligible.
As I read about DACs and ADCs I find that even datasheets for DACs recommend special considerations for digital and analog sections of a board's layout. I think I have found this fairly often in some multi-channel DACs for receivers. Consider Fig 43 of the PCM1690 datasheet:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1690.pdf
Considerable amount of jitter in the signal source might be too much for certain DAC implementations. How much jitter and noise there is in the line proly depends on the connection type, source, cable construction and so forth.
It also depends on how well things are handled at the DAC itself.
To counter some of these problems I think PCB layout, i.e. implementation, matters a lot. In some cases, the traces themselves are used to filter signal stuffs. For the PCM1681, on page 33 there are even recommendations to use the PCB trace parasitic capacitance "to form a low-pass filter that removes high-frequency noise from the digital signal, thus reducing high-frequency emission":
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm1681-q1.pdf
Again, I don't necessarily think that 1's and 0's and how pretty they look matters as much as how their ugliness affects other parts of the system.
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Just for the record, I have not actually seen the Wyrd actually reduce clock jitter but it does enable devices downstream of it to achieve consistent clocking like in the case of the ODAC and AGD both of which have similar problems with usb jitter.
In the PWD does anyone know how ethernet clock recovery is achieved? That may provide a couple of answers.
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Dunno TBH, but best guess is that there are some fairly large buffers there.
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It also depends on how well things are handled at the DAC itself.
Again, I don't necessarily think that 1's and 0's and how pretty they look matters as much as how their ugliness affects other parts of the system.
That's the essence of the whole debate indeed as I pointed out in another thread.
Digital 'processing' of the signal, upsampling algorithms, DAC chip implementation, signal routing, PCB design, power supply, electric isolation and post/reconstruction filtering seem more important aspects to me than linearity of a chip in the DAC-device.
I may as well add jitter next to the linearity bit.
As you already mentioned its all how the DAC (as a device, not the chip) handles incoming jitter and isolates from external 'spikes' and 'noise' coming in and working itself into the analog part or the part where digital decisions are made that are timing related.
One of the biggest problems for me though is that especially the 'jitter' and cable business borders on the edge of placebo, where NOS DACs with 'broken' reconstruction filters are so extremely measurable and audible 'broken' it isn't even funny where a lot of people like that 'broken' sound as some of the upper treble is simply removed.
This is one of these areas in audio (just like cables and component house-sound) that will always be controversial and of which there will never be a definitive answer to all involved in the 'discussion'.
My POV of course... and know I am wrong more often than I am right, or at least am told I am.
I do believe we should never stop trying though.
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For me the significant part is that until Wyrd and a super-zoopy usb cable, the cat7 data path was clearly superior. I figured it was due to the extra buffering/reclocking etc. in the bridge card that gave it the 'edge'. And the difference wasn't slight either. Inner detail, bass impact, sound stage etc. etc. all clearly favored the cat7 data path.
But now the oft maligned usb data path is the equal and in some sonic characteristics superior to the more sophisticated cat7 data path, and for the first time in my system.
All because #1, the Wyrd reduced the noise on the power being sent to the DAC. AND #2, because the data stream has been re-clocked. Then #3, this data stream is passed along using wire that has been silver 'cladded' and has other 'tricks' in its construction. AND #4, was actively cooked.
And the results are not just noticeable but delineate-able as to FR and other easily describeable sonic attributes.
And I do agree that 'noise' from whatever source that is deposited smack into the input circuitry can 'influence' the rest of the functional operation. But the effects are not what I would call 'errors' which is what the digital domain would have us believe is the 'only' option. Either the correct data is present, or not.
And I do understand that digital circuits are in reality re-tasked and refined analog circuits which in these cases are designed to act as near to an on-off switch as possible.
Except that the sonic differences sound more akin to 'analog coloration' especially with those aspects I mentioned above among others. Thus my referece to tube rolling. Which is a way of 'customizing' the sound to your own tastes. These efforts can yield impressive results to say the least.
All due to improvements in the delivery system of the data bit stream that is subsequently re-clocked, again, and 'properly' presented to the dac for re-construction into an analog signal.
IOW the sonic effects of signal degridation from whatever source (analog or digital) can have the same or very similar sonic effects.
I find this fascinating myself.
JJ popcorn
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Except that the sonic differences sound more akin to 'analog coloration'
I find this fascinating myself.
I agree with that experience of analog coloration as well. Except for what I refer to as 'turbo clock' effect which I find solely occurs in the digital domain and is something different altogether.
I find it annoyingly frustrating. When the designer of the ODAC can't even get bit-perfect or USB implementation right, that should tell you a lot about how messy the digital side of things is.
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And yes, I still have problems with inconsistent ODAC performance. I jumped in the deep end without being able to swim. Reading the subsequent posts with interest.
I still wonder, though: we know that USB can transmit data accurately, and, in the digital domain, out of my depth or not, I do still insist that music is data. Are we to believe that the Audio implementation somehow got broken?
Actually, the ODAC is my first USB DAC: I started with optical, a decade or so ago, and then went to firewire.
Next time, I will give my self a choice of input options. Although I am easily able to believe that the in-DAC circuitry may not treat all inputs equally, at least I will get the experience. And choose the one I like best. Placebo or not!
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I still wonder, though: we know that USB can transmit data accurately, and, in the digital domain, out of my depth or not, I do still insist that music is data. Are we to believe that the Audio implementation somehow got broken?
The music IS indeed represented by data.
A question (to some) is whether or not it is represented by enough data but that's another discussion.
In the end it all has to do with HOW (technical solutions) the DAC 'synchronises' with the incoming stream (no retries nor correctable error detection in the concept) and how data is handled and clocked out by the DAC chip and subsequently handled in the analog plane.
That's where the 'concept' is more or less 'broken'... well... broken may be a harsh word, not implemented optimally would be a better description. The synchronising and handling of the incoming (correct) data that is.
That concept is equally broken for TOSLINK, SPDIF and other transmission methods (yes, even I2S) but some technical solutions may be implemented in a 'better' way.
TOSLINK is galvanically isolated but has other limits and SPDIF may or may not be isolated.
USB isn't electically isolated and in some cases this MAY affect the analog signal or even 'decision making' errors (timing related) in the recieving circuit.
Technically there are MANY ways around all of these issues, the question remains how well these different ways are implemented and what manufacturers can do without stepping on patents of other manufacturers.
It appears that for some people re-clocking removes all the downsides with USB audio data transport.
This is where the Wyrd comes in handy at an attractive price for those not able/willing to tinker with components themselves nor wanting to pay top dollar for these features (isolating and reconditioning).
For other people the Wyrd does not seem to do anything at all, which also isn't weird, as it's functionality isn't based on pixies and magic (there is quite ordinary and cheap parts in there) but MAY help overcome some technical issues which may exist in a some situations but may not be a problem in other situations.
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USB isn't electically isolated and in some cases this MAY affect the analog signal or even 'decision making' errors (timing related) in the recieving circuit.
It can be with the Adnaco optical card. Part of the issue with USB is that there's so many different ways to implement it as compared to more traditional methods. USB can be either terrible or fantastic, it just depends on design.
This is obvious when you look at all of the USB > S/Pdif converters on the market which vary hugely both in price and performance. The Hiface and OR5 for example share the same basic technology. One is arguably the worst performing converter on the market, the other is one of the absolute best. Neither ever enters the analog domain though, so clearly there's more to USB implementation than say the effect of a noisy ground on a DAC's analog output stage.
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/1211emp.inside.jpg)
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This is obvious when you look at all of the USB > S/Pdif converters on the market which vary hugely both in price and performance. The Hiface and OR5 for example share the same basic technology. One is arguably the worst performing converter on the market, the other is one of the absolute best. Neither ever enters the analog domain though, so clearly there's more to USB implementation than say the effect of a noisy ground on a DAC's analog output stage.
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/1211emp.inside.jpg)
Indeed it may be like with other things in life.
It's not the size of the chip but how you use it.
pictured above OR5
pictured below HiFace PCB
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/71/1000x500px-LL-71afae17_hiface_01.jpg)
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/4/41/1000x500px-LL-415a23ae_hiface_02.jpg)
pictures taken by gameguytw (HF)
http://www.head-fi.org/t/498151/m2tech-hiface-mods-and-discussions/240 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/498151/m2tech-hiface-mods-and-discussions/240)
The guy basically tries to 'OR5ify' his hiFace.
It's not unlikely they perform differently even though they share one or two chips.
Can't seem to find any jitter (or other) plots of the same DAC and same source (taken by the same individual under equal circumstances) using OR5 and HiFace which could be interesting from a technical POV.
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Lots of guys have tried to mod their Hiface's. JK (Ciunas) for example. But somehow the modded versions don't sound as good as the OR5. And I'm running the OR5 without the clock module too (I believe the base OR5 doesn't even have a reclocker.)
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Can't seem to find any jitter (or other) plots of the same DAC and same source (taken by the same individual under equal circumstances) using OR5 and HiFace which could be interesting from a technical POV.
JA has measured a few of these things, which tend to range from 400-600ps at the bottom of the barrel to <50ps for the best ones. Steve doesn't post measurements on his site, but has mentioned that after he got a very pricey audio analyzer to measure precise output jitter, he redesigned the output transformer on the OR5 to drop jitter from ~150ps P-P to around 40ps. If you get it with the OTL option, it goes down to around 20ps, but requires the DAC to have a pulse transformer on the input.
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Because Steve would never publish stuff I used to think he was one of THOSE people. After we got to meet him and talk to him, he does know his stuff. It also helps if you spend some good time with him, you get a feel for where he comes from on certain things so it all begins to make sense. He's a good guy and know what good stuff measures like and sound like. Unlike some who stash line arrays in their closet...
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Well my impressions on the Wyrd have been a long time coming. In one word: "Love it". For $100 it is criminal. I've had quite a merry-go-round with my system since the time I got the Wyrd. I auditioned 5 USB cables to pair with the Kingrex Uart cable. Around the same time, I introduced two Signal Cable Magic power cords, which weren't completely broken in into my system.
Fun fact, my second favorite USB cable out of those I auditioned was the USB cable that came with my EMU-0404 USB close to a decade ago. In first place was the Black Cat Silverstar. It serves duty between the Wyrd and the Gungnir DAC. My consensus (IMO) after maniacal testing is that the cable transmitting from the PC to the Wyrd is the most important, and the Kingrex edged out the Black Cat to do the honors.
So after allowing everything to settle in, and imbibing the new sound, then removing the Wyrd and living without it for a while, it eventually dawned on me what was going on. You see the Wyrd is one of those air purifier thingamajics that are sold on late night TV in between reruns. You didn't know your air sucked till you decided to take advantage of the fact that the deal was for 29.99 and if you called within the next ten minutes they will cover S&H. Well. it just so turns out that this damn thing makes you breathe so much better. You not only breathe in air, but you are noticing the actual molecules. Oxygen- oh yeah, there are actually two of them. Never knew that before. It's humid, oh yeah, two hydrogens and one oxygen molecule, who would have thunk it.
Well, as you have guessed by now, oh no, I gave it away in my second sentence. This Schiit aint going nowhere. Now, I'm so in love with clean air that I need moar and moar of it. Has anyone used the Wyrd in conjunction with the either the Paul Pang USB card or the SoTM card? I'm wondering if adding one of these audiophile PCie cards will be a cumulative benefit. Any thoughts or experiences?
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Because Steve would never publish stuff I used to think he was one of THOSE people. After we got to meet him and talk to him, he does know his stuff. It also helps if you spend some good time with him, you get a feel for where he comes from on certain things so it all begins to make sense. He's a good guy and know what good stuff measures like and sound like. Unlike some who stash line arrays in their closet...
Yeah Steve kind of does things his own way, but he definitely knows a thing or two about USB and digital audio. I know it bothers a lot of people that he refuses to disclose what DAC chips he uses in the Overdrive, but I've heard enough of his stuff to give him the benefit of the doubt as to why he chooses to use what he does. His work definitely speaks for itself.
You could certainly argue as to whether his $800 take on the Wyrd should cost what it does, but I think the OR and OD are quite reasonably priced for their performance vs. the competition. The OR6 may be a tougher pill to swallow. Since the Dynamo will now be mandatory instead of optional, the price is likely to go up by at least $1K.
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Because Steve would never publish stuff I used to think he was one of THOSE people. After we got to meet him and talk to him, he does know his stuff. It also helps if you spend some good time with him, you get a feel for where he comes from on certain things so it all begins to make sense. He's a good guy and know what good stuff measures like and sound like. Unlike some who stash line arrays in their closet...
Yeah Steve kind of does things his own way, but he definitely knows a thing or two about USB and digital audio. I know it bothers a lot of people that he refuses to disclose what DAC chips he uses in the Overdrive, but I've heard enough of his stuff to give him the benefit of the doubt as to why he chooses to use what he does. His work definitely speaks for itself.
You could certainly argue as to whether his $800 take on the Wyrd should cost what it does, but I think the OR and OD are quite reasonably priced for their performance vs. the competition. The OR6 may be a tougher pill to swallow. Since the Dynamo will now be mandatory instead of optional, the price is likely to go up by at least $1K.
The stuff is certainly priced for the speaker crowd.
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Except that the sonic differences sound more akin to 'analog coloration'
I find this fascinating myself.
I agree with that experience of analog coloration as well. Except for what I refer to as 'turbo clock' effect which I find solely occurs in the digital domain and is something different altogether.
I find it annoyingly frustrating. When the designer of the ODAC can't even get bit-perfect or USB implementation right, that should tell you a lot about how messy the digital side of things is.
Yes it will be rather fascinating to hear what sonic surprises a 'tweako', latest generation, r2r bit perfect DAC will create…
And the matching amp for class A goodness.
It should be very revealing…
JJ
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Wyrd + Stoner Acoustics UD120 is quite impressive. (Better than Wyrd + Modi IMO.) The improvement on the UD120 alone is substantial. It is still not resolving enough for the HD800* but brings out the soundstage layering on the Lab 1 that I had been having a hard time getting with anything but the Calyx M.
Right now its is Wyrd + MicroDAC for the HD800 and Wyrd + UD120 for the Lab 1. Yggy looms.
(* Actually it is probably more accurate to say that it just sounds a bit flat with the HD800. With Wyrd, the UD120's detail is okay.)
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Wyrd + Stoner Acoustics UD120 is quite impressive. (Better than Wyrd + Modi IMO.) The improvement on the UD120 alone is substantial. It is still not resolving enough for the HD800 but brings out the soundstage layering on the Lab 1 that I had been having a hard time getting with anything but the Calyx M.
Right now its is Wyrd + MicroDAC for the HD800 and Wyrd + UD120 for the Lab 1. Yggy looms.
Hey cooper, any comparo of the UD120 and the ODAC? I have been debating with myself on getting one till someone said on HF that the ODAC still comes out on top.
On another note, updated the measurements(with the ODAC) in the previous pages, turns out the JTest tones generated in ARTA never go beyond 16 bit even if you specify 24 bit. So heres some with 24 bit tones.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1652.msg48164.html#msg48164
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Wyrd + Stoner Acoustics UD120 is quite impressive. (Better than Wyrd + Modi IMO.) The improvement on the UD120 alone is substantial. It is still not resolving enough for the HD800 but brings out the soundstage layering on the Lab 1 that I had been having a hard time getting with anything but the Calyx M.
Right now its is Wyrd + MicroDAC for the HD800 and Wyrd + UD120 for the Lab 1. Yggy looms.
Hey cooper, any comparo of the UD120 and the ODAC? I have been debating with myself on getting one till someone said on HF that the ODAC still comes out on top.
On another note, updated the measurements(with the ODAC) in the previous pages, turns out the JTest tones generated in ARTA never go beyond 16 bit even if you specify 24 bit. So heres some with 24 bit tones.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1652.msg48164.html#msg48164
Sorry but I have never heard the ODAC.
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Got the Wyrd in today and set it up to try it with my Matrix x-sabre. And it won't connect with the x-sabre while I use a usb cable without ground/power lines. The X-sabre works directly in the PC with only signal USB cable, any idea why it won't work with the wyrd?
Edit: Just tested it with my 5m printer cable, now it works. Still no idea why it won't work with the 5V cut, I remember others using this kind of usb cable with wyrd. And the X-sabre clearly works with signal only. I am very confused right now.
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Wyrd needs the ground from the PC side.
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Wyrd needs the ground from the PC side.
Thank you for fast answer! :) Yes I know.
PC -> Normal USB cable -> Wyrd -> Normal USB cable -> X-Sabre. Working as intented.
PC -> Normal USB cable -> Wyrd -> 5V cut USB cable -> X-Sabre. Not working.
PC -> 5V cut USB cable -> X-Sabre. Working.
Anyone experienced the same thing? Or just any ideas?
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It looks like the X-Sabre needs a normal USB cable for a "handshake" with the wyrd. Oh well..
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Wyrd needs the ground from the PC side.
Thank you for fast answer! :) Yes I know.
PC -> Normal USB cable -> Wyrd -> 5V cut USB cable -> X-Sabre. Not working.
Hmmm, I thought the Wyrd was essentially a clean 5v power supply for usb, with a clock.
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Yes, but USB receiver still wants to see the power from PC side. Just that power going to the DAC side is now cleaner, so pointless to do tweaks on the PC side / USB input.
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Well got to play around with this, and it's definitely a great little toy well worth it price. It might be the new toy effect, some sorts of bias or my USB ports being horrible bad, but after some hours on this thing these are some ramblings I wrote and small changes I heard with the X-sabre:
Bass: I always felt that the x-sabre had great impact and good timbre, but a sort of "blurpy" bass. Wyrd fixes some of that, leaving the good impact, but now with a bit more tone (e.x. you can hear better what a bass player plays).
Treble: I can understand why someone said that the x-sabre has a "sabre" treble. I think the Wyrd fixes that. Cymbals now sounds "fuller" and "darker" instead of "spitty" and "thin". YMMV.
Black background: This was already a very strong point for the x-sabre, but it got somewhat better (blacker?). Sounds just seems to pop better out of nothing, which leads me to the biggest change-
Imaging/focus: I love the soundstage with the x-sabre, it's honestly one of the best thing with this dac besides being a wellrounded and "relaxed". However I sometimes felt that the imaging took a small hit for the big soundstage, like some notes are blurry and not easily picked out. The biggest change I have with the Wyrd now some hours in, is that the focus is better. If I close my eyes I feel I can point exactly where the sound is coming from. At the same time the wyrd made it easier the pick apart instruments and voices. Like when a chorus sings I can now hear the individual voices.
All in all, this be good schiit :)p1
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So after further testing I find that by using a parametric EQ trick, I can 'compensate' for the difference in the bass between the usb and cat7 data paths. By adding 3.5 to 4.5dB at 15Hz with a Q of 0.18 as a dsp function, the bass actually has yet even more inner details only now it has that same satisfying heft.
Which then just leaves the 'veil' or 'harmonic enrichment' aspect of differences, which I can live with, since all of my other tell tales also confirm that the usb, using the Weird Schiit and a decent cable is a wonderful solution for those in search of an easy (and astonishingly low cost) way to 'optimize' the usb data path.
:thumb
:thumb
JJ
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Do I need any fancy USB cables for this thing? Pyst cable?
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You don't 'need' a fancy cable. You do 'need' a cable that is actually up to spec and not doing funny stuff to the signal. Read that how you like.
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We've talked about this many times here. To repeat as Dave and others have mentioned, 95% of your so-called 'digital' stream occurs in an analog verse. The part that is digital is the part you'll never ever see or touch. Unless your name is Tron.
Uh, actually 100.0% of digital electronics is really analog. The difference is only in the electronic design.
Inside an IC, the "digital" signals are represented by electrical voltages that are analog. Only in "meaning" is that voltage "digital". In a digital circuit, the design will do different things based on the mathematics of the "digital" values that the analog voltages represent, whereas in an analog circuit, the design will do different things based on the analog voltages and currents.
This is why a music playing PC can sound different depending on what other processes are running on the PC, and why Jriver MC sounds better than foobar, even though both the Jriver and foobar people scream that it cannot sound different (because in both cases they are software engineers, not electronics engineers like Jason and Mike, and so they think in terms of bits rather than electronic design issues).
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Uh, actually 100.0% of digital electronics is really analog. The difference is only in the electronic design.
Inside an IC, the "digital" signals are represented by electrical voltages that are analog. Only in "meaning" is that voltage "digital". In a digital circuit, the design will do different things based on the mathematics of the "digital" values that the analog voltages represent, whereas in an analog circuit, the design will do different things based on the analog voltages and currents.
This is why a music playing PC can sound different depending on what other processes are running on the PC, and why Jriver MC sounds better than foobar, even though both the Jriver and foobar people scream that it cannot sound different (because in both cases they are software engineers, not electronics engineers like Jason and Mike, and so they think in terms of bits rather than electronic design issues).
Well I was trying to not be absolutist by accounting for a metaphysical quantum consciousness where a computational space might occur before actually manifesting itself physically, but no matter. Carry on. I'm very modal, so 100% is not really in my vocabulary. I'd prefer to go all in and say 115%.
Edit-gave you kudos for having the balls to say what you said.
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Got a Schiit Wyrd. Works great until I used it in Foobar with WASAPI, at which point it works for a short while before flipping out and distorting/squealing horribly. WTF.
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First JRiver, now Foobar+Wyrd. Me thinks you have interesting Windows issues on your PC. popcorn
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Got a Schiit Wyrd. Works great until I used it in Foobar with WASAPI, at which point it works for a short while before flipping out and distorting/squealing horribly. WTF.
Hmm did you try WASAPI push and event? I usually use event, but I think with the Wyrd, I had to use push. Also, maybe try adjusting your buffer sizes... sorry if these are stupid answers, they've just worked for me in the past... hope you can get it going.
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I've been bugging Schiit. They suggested trying Wasapi Event, Push, and DS. DS lasts the longest before freaking out.
Happens with JRiver and Foobar, but only with Wyrd.
Taking it home with my to try with a better USB cable on a better computer.
It doesn't happen in normal Windows. Weird as crap.
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Analyse your DPC latency and lookout of any usb driver software that might be interfering. Also it sounds weird, but thermal monitoring software, antiviruses might be potential causes so take a look at those as well.
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I'm having no problems at all with it at home. Same cable, same PSU, same DAC.
WTF.
I'll troubleshoot more at work tomorrow.
I guess it's good that it works fine at home.
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Used a Dragonfly to test the Wyrd. Did the tests a couple times with and without from the same USB port at the same volume etc.
The Dragonfly doesn't measure terribly well no matter what, but it is objectively better with the Wyrd.
http://www.basshead.club/measurements/dragonfly/dragonfly_wyrd.html
http://www.basshead.club/measurements/dragonfly/dragonfly_no_wyrd.html
http://www.basshead.club/measurements/dragonfly/dragonfly_wyrd_compare.html
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Used a Dragonfly to test the Wyrd. Did the tests a couple times with and without from the same USB port at the same volume etc.
What do you think about the noise readings on the Wyrd? Seems like it is pushing noise into the high frequencies from audible range.
Do you think it's artifact or by design?
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What do you think about the noise readings on the Wyrd? Seems like it is pushing noise into the high frequencies from audible range.
Do you think it's artifact or by design?
Inconclusive at this point. I need to test it out with a better DAC than the Dragonfly.
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Thanks for everyone's impressions on the Wyrd! I'm interested in trying it here in China. I know that most Schiit gear can only input one type of voltage since the transformer is in the chassis, but I noticed that the Wyrd has a generic 6VAC input wall wart. Does that mean that the Wyrd will work in any country and I just need the appropriate power adapter?
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I just figured out what was killing my Schiit Wyrd at work.
The second I plug in my external USB 3 jump drive, it stops working. Completely different USB location and I'm not even playing music from it, but it stops working.
If I unplug that USB stick, it works fine.
Wish I could figure out how to fix that issue, but at least I have a workaround. I prefer to listen to music from that drive without transferring it to my work hard drive, but apparently that is not an option.
Edit: Spoke too soon. My work computer is balls. Broke again after a while.
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Yeah, that's a motherboard issue. How shitty is your computer?
Edit: saw your edit while posting this, sounds like a confirmed "shitty computer". Ticket closed. WITHDRAWN
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Could still be on the same USB bus. I can't get the highest speed measurements on the QA400 with my home PC because I have too much crap attached to the USB lines. USB can't do DMA, i.e. access to memory or subsystems cannot be done independent of CPU. Finally, most USB controllers (on either end) tend to suck.
Best approach is to get a decent USB PCI card to run audio applications. Faster computer also helps.
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My work computer is actually pretty darn good, but the USB must suck.
Z97X-Gaming 7 motherboard, i7 4790k CPU, 32GB ram, etc.
It's not as good as my home computer, but it's better than most work computers out there.
I wonder if they'll let me install a USB card.
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better than most work computers out there.
Umm... that is an understatement. I withdraw my prior mobo insult. wtf job do you have that deemed 32 jiggabytes of ram necessary??
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I'm a game designer at Blizzard. :P
I think I'm going to quietly acquire and install an Asus USB 3.1 card.
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Do I need any fancy USB cables for this thing? Pyst cable?
The PYST USB cable from Schiit is the least expensive audiophile USB cable you can buy. It is made by Straight Wire, a budget audiophile cable company. (In fact, most places have the same cable for more than schiit.com - ssshh don't tell anyone.) The PYST runs only a little more than generic cables, so you are getting a cable that is certified by both schiit and Straight Wire to perform properly to specs, AND a cable that is designed by someone who listens to their prototypes before going to production.
Anyway, based on positive reviews in the thread on the Wyrd+Gungnir, I went ahead and bought a Wyrd (and another PYST) to try with my Bifrost Uber. The first one I received, worked fine with my HRT MS2+ DAC that does not require drivers (USB 1.0 only), but when I tried it with Bifrost, the Wyrd was not "hot swabble" - Windows would not reinstall Bifrost successfully if I turned Wyrd off and on. (Wyrd huh ?)
Schiit immediately sent out a replacement, which works fine - I can switch off the Wyrd, Bifrost disappears from Windows devices, and then when I switch on, it reappears - as is normal for USB devices.
My impression of the sound quality difference was similar to thegunner100's in this post:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1652.msg44112.html#msg44112
except that my impression was that it was less subtle than what thegunner100 described. It is subtle in the sense that it takes some listening skill to notice, but then when you notice it, it seems a clear improvement.
I found that someone's description that it was most easily noticed by removing it, was exactly true for me.
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Umm... that is an understatement. I withdraw my prior mobo insult. wtf job do you have that deemed 32 jiggabytes of ram necessary??
I have 64GB for editing .txt files.
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I have 64GB for editing .txt files.
Is that sufficient for playing solitaire?
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Is that sufficient for playing solitaire?
hello,
only if its ECC.
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I'm actually just going to use coax to a good USB->SPDIF converter, which will make my Wyrd redundant.
Anyone want to buy it? $60+PayPal/Shipping should bring it ~$70.
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I have a Gustard U12 I'm thinking of getting rid of in anticipation for my Gungnir MB + Wyrd configuration. Just a thought if you might want to do a somewhat equal trade. :)
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Already sold it off. Thanks for the offer though!
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Just purchased one from Schiit. Missed Luckbad's sale...