CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Main Deck => Discussion for Registered Members Only => Topic started by: XRG1 on May 13, 2013, 04:32:14 AM
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In the spirit of (well sort of) the Apex Pinnacle thread.
I would like to solicit opinion on the Astell & Kearn 120 portable player.
The title should tell you what my initial opinion is.
I question the logic and value of a 1300 (plus taxes) player in todays market . I sincerely believe that a more feature rich item can be built and sold for under 800 dollars.
So just what would YOU expect for 1.3K$? And how does the Haagen Dasz player measure up?
There is a brief review here
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/internet-audio/594-astellakern-ak120-portable-player.html?start=1 (http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/internet-audio/594-astellakern-ak120-portable-player.html?start=1)
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FiiO just released a curious DAP.
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In the spirit of (well sort of) the Apex Pinnacle thread.
I would like to solicit opinion on the Astell & Kearn 120 portable player.
The title should tell you what my initial opinion is.
I question the logic and value of a 1300 (plus taxes) player in todays market . I sincerely believe that a more feature rich item can be built and sold for under 800 dollars.
So just what would YOU expect for 1.3K$? And how does the Haagen Dasz player measure up?
There is a brief review here
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/internet-audio/594-astellakern-ak120-portable-player.html?start=1 (http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/internet-audio/594-astellakern-ak120-portable-player.html?start=1)
It's somewhat difficult to form an opinion about a product that isn't yet available (except to reviewers, apparently).
I'm pretty happy with my AK100, and there is nothing in the disclosed feature-set of the AK120 that I can't live without.
I do find it surprising appalling, in light of the controversy over the AK100's output impedance, that Hi-Fi World couldn't be bothered to measure that performance parameter. The review, overall, is a joke.
I'll refrain from making any comment about the price until I see a published teardown/BOM analysis, other than to say that one more WM8740 and an extra 32 gigs of internal memory don't seem likely to cause a multi-centi-buck increase in BOM cost. From a marketing perspective, it was probably inevitable that the "better" AK120 would be priced above the AK100, and there is no shortage of people who will fall for the "more expensive = better" pitch, whether it's true or not in any particular case.
Finally, as far as Haagen-Dazs is concerned, make mine Butter Pecan.
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I'll frankly just stick with my Cowon C2 and get a D20 when necessary... (these days I value battery life more than anything... and sound quality is not bad from Cowon...)
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In the spirit of (well sort of) the Apex Pinnacle thread.
I would like to solicit opinion on the Astell & Kearn 120 portable player.
The title should tell you what my initial opinion is.
I question the logic and value of a 1300 (plus taxes) player in todays market . I sincerely believe that a more feature rich item can be built and sold for under 800 dollars.
So just what would YOU expect for 1.3K$? And how does the Haagen Dasz player measure up?
There is a brief review here
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/internet-audio/594-astellakern-ak120-portable-player.html?start=1 (http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/internet-audio/594-astellakern-ak120-portable-player.html?start=1)
It's somewhat difficult to form an opinion about a product that isn't yet available (except to reviewers, apparently).
I'm pretty happy with my AK100, and there is nothing in the disclosed feature-set of the AK120 that I can't live without.
I do find it surprising appalling, in light of the controversy over the AK100's output impedance, that Hi-Fi World couldn't be bothered to measure that performance parameter. The review, overall, is a joke.
I'll refrain from making any comment about the price until I see a published teardown/BOM analysis, other than to say that one more WM8740 and an extra 32 gigs of internal memory don't seem likely to cause a multi-centi-buck increase in BOM cost. From a marketing perspective, it was probably inevitable that the "better" AK120 would be priced above the AK100, and there is no shortage of people who will fall for the "more expensive = better" pitch, whether it's true or not in any particular case.
Finally, as far as Haagen-Dazs is concerned, make mine Butter Pecan.
Haagen Dazs was a little company in the Bronx which knew no one would buy a premium product from there. Give it an exotic sounding euro name, and Voila a marketing strategy is born!
Sort of like a name like iRiver not being able to sell upmarket.
I will be interesting to hear a real review. Thus far my issue is simply, for that price the hardware is not there to justify a purchase.
I would like to hear what folks on here would like to see in a 1.3K$ player. At that price point the feature list should be almost unlimited.
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For 1.3K? A 256GB SSD and a proper amp.
It's cute that iRiver is trying to act all European and rip people off, but they have a ways to go before matching the other continent's Vertu level of exclusive douchebaggery.
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For 1.3K? A 256GB SSD and a proper amp.
It's cute that iRiver is trying to act all European and rip people off, but they have a ways to go before matching the other continent's Vertu level of exclusive douchebaggery.
The SEATO way, take the concept improve on it and sell it back to you. Expect escalating douchebaggery a'plenty if this one goes over.
The SSD or at least connectivity via usb to external drives. If they are going to tout this as a home player worthy solution SD cards are not going to cut it.
Why, you don't need a killer amp when you have duelling DAC chips splitting the digital stream all over the place! p:0
We need a diy solution in the PortaDAP arena ASAP.
Does anybody actually know who Astell&Kearn's actually are? I have visions of some expat sign making company on Patpong 1 that an iRiver exec strolled by on a sexual holiday being the inspiration for the name.
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I would like to hear what folks on here would like to see in a 1.3K$ player. At that price point the feature list should be almost unlimited.
The Hifiman HM-901 probably gets closest to what I want. It's not perfect by any stretch, but so far nobody has come up with the perfect high-end portable. I don't care about album art or a touch UI, and I certainly don't want something like Android as the underlying OS ala the DX100. I want something that's as minimal as possible so that it powers on quick and is ready to go straight away. My HM-801 can go from off to playing a file in no more than about 10 seconds. I don't have the patience to wait much longer than that.
The 901 does seem to take care of most of the weaknesses that the 801 has, and hopefully at some point in the future they'll release an amp card that can get the most out of it. I know the dock required to access the digital output bothers some people but I don't really care, I don't need it to double as a music sever. I have a dedicated music server that's FAR better suited to that role.
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Well, it's not easy DIY-ing a DAP. First of all it would need to be almost fully SMD, secondly it requires acquiring a processor chip and someone should be proficient in writing the UI/OS. In the end it would still end up looking like the QA350.
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Well, it's not easy DIY-ing a DAP. First of all it would need to be almost fully SMD, secondly it requires acquiring a processor chip and someone should be proficient in writing the UI/OS. In the end it would still end up looking like the QA350.
If It does what I want I really do not care if it looks like the box it shipped in ;D The QA350 would be perfect if it supported FLAC.
The case really is just a matter of economics. They took off the shelf rather than have a smooth red dot award winning uberstyle enclosure produced.
Frankly one of the best sounding systems I ever owned was the palm Zire31 running tcpmp. If that supported SD over 2 gig I would probably still be using it.
On the other extreme we have the ipod shuffle. Now if we had a minimalist flac and wav player on a 500gig stick, I'd probably go for it.
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An iRiver brand player with a plus-1K price tag would be the portable audio version of the VW Phaeton: no matter how good it is, you can't sell it at that price.
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how much is an WM8740 chip? 5usd? 10usd each?
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how much is an WM8740 chip? 5usd? 10usd each?
As far as I can tell about $5.70 from most distributors. The high-end WM8741 is about $13.40.
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An iRiver brand player with a plus-1K price tag would be the portable audio version of the VW Phaeton: no matter how good it is, you can't sell it at that price.
Apparently they can. Over at the Audio vendors lickspittle site there are a few claiming to have bought. Then again their grandads were probably really proud when they brought their Edsels home the first time. :P
I suspect that the actual buyers thus far are trade. It would be interesting to know what they actually paid. I suspect wholesale on this beast leaves a LOT of leeway p:8
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how much is an WM8740 chip? 5usd? 10usd each?
As far as I can tell about $5.70 from most distributors. The high-end WM8741 is about $13.40.
No matter how you slice it this thing is cheaper to slap together than an Ipad simply by virtue of the cheapo screen. Apple fessed up to the ipad being just over 100 bucks to make. If this thing costs any more than thirty bucks, it's because the case is a custom build.
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I tried the AK100 at the recent NY Audio show. I had my modded Fostex T50RP's with me to compare them with the Mr. Speakers Mad Dogs that were on display. I had an O2 amp, a rockboxed/flash drived 4th Generation ipod w/line out cable, and a rockboxed Sansa Fuze.
I pulled the SD card from the Sansa, and put it in the AK100. I think it was only an 8GB card. It took about 3 or 4 minutes to load. Totally ridiculous. I should have been able to browse the file structure and play while it loaded the metadata, but nope, it is useless while it loads a card. The software is pretty bad, and the screen is unresponsive to button pushes.
Unfortunately, all that I had in common between the ipod and the SD card was Frank Ocean's album Orange. Very quickly on comparison it was obvious that the AK100 could not drive my T50RP's anywhere close to as well as the O2. From my brief listening, I was very underwhelmed, considering the price tag. I did not see a line out on it either, so you are stuck with the built in amp, or going through the headphone out.
The pricing on the AK100 is beyond absurd, and the AK120 moves it up to insulting. I wish that I had pulled out my IEMs and compared it more, but the show was closing up, and the sales guys for AK were hitting me hard with "Don't you want to get rid of all that stuff and upgrade to this". I told them it couldn't drive my headphones, didn't sound as good, and bailed. I could have stuck around and tried my IEM's, but I very much doubt that would change my mind. I think this is for people with more money than sense or taste, like so many audiophool products. I would guess that the metal chassis is by far the most expensive part. They certainly didn't spend much on the crappy software. Why not just use Rockbox with it, it is open source, and much, much, much better.
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What would I pay >$1K for?
A 256 gig iPod Touch that plays 96/24 and has a quality amp section.
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What would I pay >$1K for?
A 256 gig iPod Touch that plays 96/24 and has a quality amp section.
Well you can mod the amp section. So 96/24 and FLAC would be a winner:)
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Taking for granted that iRiver hasn't exactly been subtle in its disembrace of gender egalitarianism in the past,
(http://web.archive.org/web/20061107044432/http://218.145.55.194/Data/paper/audreyhepburn.jpg)
(http://boingboing.net/images/jennagadget.jpg)
It is not that surprising that their rep at Munich fits the audiophile archetype of the awkward male nerd (VP of marketing, mind you):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k28P8H52hkY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k28P8H52hkY)
I don't know whether to give them brownie points for not hiring a convention model in a crass attempt to project whatever sex appeal and exclusivity their product is said to embody, or to deduct points for putting forth an awkward talking head who pretty much has to be prompted by the interviewer.
It's mean to criticize a Korean doing his best to maintain the company line in English at a German locale, I know, but in a sick way it's funny to see how haphazard A&K is as a luxury brand.
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Taking for granted that iRiver hasn't exactly been subtle in its disembrace of gender egalitarianism in the past,
(http://web.archive.org/web/20061107044432/http://218.145.55.194/Data/paper/audreyhepburn.jpg)
(http://boingboing.net/images/jennagadget.jpg)
It is not that surprising that their rep at Munich fits the audiophile archetype of the awkward male nerd (VP of marketing, mind you):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k28P8H52hkY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k28P8H52hkY)
I don't know whether to give them brownie points for not hiring a convention model in a crass attempt to project whatever sex appeal and exclusivity their product is said to embody, or to deduct points for putting forth an awkward talking head who pretty much has to be prompted by the interviewer.
It's mean to criticize a Korean doing his best to maintain the company line in English at a German locale, I know, but in a sick way it's funny to see how haphazard A&K is as a luxury brand.
Interesting how quickly that ended at the mention of price:)
Presentation a little lackluster all through. You really have to wonder how serious they take these trade shows to put forward a presence of that calibre.
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I spoke with a mate who went to Munich. At the stand he put the AK100/120 in his pocket (still attached to the security chain). The guy manning the stall naturally went WTF! an asked him what he was doing.
My mate said "why does the volume ride up when you put in your pocket? The vendor replied "You have to put it in it's case".
"So, you have to leave it in it's case to prevent the volume being accidentally changed?"
Vendor:"??!! um er"
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If they just update the old H1xx and H3xx-series they can skip the nonsense.
I have the H10 20Gb and it is great with Rockbox. Slightly bulky but hey. Weird company...
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I was an iRiver fan way back when, but when they switched from mass storage support to proprietary software driven bullshit, that was the end of iRiver for me. Cowon never pulled that sort of nonsense.
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The vendor replied "You have to put it in it's case".
Which probably isn't correct. There is a "volume lock" feature in settings on the 100, and it's hard to imagine that they would have deleted that on the 120.
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The vendor replied "You have to put it in it's case".
Which probably isn't correct. There is a "volume lock" feature in settings on the 100, and it's hard to imagine that they would have deleted that on the 120.
Maybe they had to cut something to be able to afford the Italian Leather case.
It's funny but whenever I hear of close encounters with AK staff they always come of like Firestone sales people who jumped ship so they could get an expense paid vacation in Europe. Perhaps I should recommend they use the phrase "Tourist in the Exotic Fi world" under their avatars.
That dude Tyll interviewed seems to fit the profile.
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I think the idea of the vendor not knowing what they were talking about sounds closer to the truth. How many times have any of us gone into a shop to buy some kit, especially tec and found that the people selling it know less than you.
Genius Bar anyone? walk the plank2
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Besides software volume lock, the AK120 has part of the body shell raised around the volume knob to reduce any chance of unwanted volume change.
Having previously owned the RWAK100 for a short period, that doesn't have this raised area, I can say the digital volume control knob takes very large movements to even change volume in the slightest. I'm talking multiple complete revolutions; so to change the volume enough to hurt your ears while inserting or removing an AK player from a pocket, it would have to be done so many times and so quickly, you'd have a better chance of being arrested for public lewd behavior before you changed the volume a substantial amount.
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My favorite comic on the topic of digital volume control-
http://i.imgur.com/bq5R2.jpg
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^Ha! Exactly.
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I'm going to have a serious talk with the guys at iriver at THE Show Newport. I'm thinking this is one of those cases where I will write a negative review. The price doesn't bother me as much as being a device that doesn't live up to the price.
I'm thinking they priced it that way to limit the number sold as they develop the product on the backs of rich people who can afford it, and then can afford to throw it out as better versions become available. If their price was lower they'd end up with more complaints from people who really stretched their wallets to buy.
It amounts to grandstanding and getting PR on the back of a flagship product that doesn't really measure up. Pretty sad really.
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I'm going to have a serious talk with the guys at iriver at THE Show Newport. I'm thinking this is one of those cases where I will write a negative review. The price doesn't bother me as much as being a device that doesn't live up to the price.
I'm thinking they priced it that way to limit the number sold as they develop the product on the backs of rich people who can afford it, and then can afford to throw it out as better versions become available. If their price was lower they'd end up with more complaints from people who really stretched their wallets to buy.
It amounts to grandstanding and getting PR on the back of a flagship product that doesn't really measure up. Pretty sad really.
Glad to hear it, but honestly this is such a regular occurrence with these sort of things. Maybe they should call the next one the "A&K Edition 150" and have Ultrasone put Ruthenium plating on it. What's really sad are the heaps of "professional reviewers" that never met an audio product they didn't love and will slobber all over this thing.
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I'm going to have a serious talk with the guys at iriver at THE Show Newport. I'm thinking this is one of those cases where I will write a negative review. The price doesn't bother me as much as being a device that doesn't live up to the price.
I'm thinking they priced it that way to limit the number sold as they develop the product on the backs of rich people who can afford it, and then can afford to throw it out as better versions become available. If their price was lower they'd end up with more complaints from people who really stretched their wallets to buy.
It amounts to grandstanding and getting PR on the back of a flagship product that doesn't really measure up. Pretty sad really.
That is about as concise a take on it as possible.
That particular stratagem is not limited to iRiver in the audio world but I am shocked they would use it at this stage.
I would be very interested to see how many of the early adopters paid the actual retail. I seem to see a lot of trade among them and I suspect they are buying at significant discounts. The ones who did pay full pop are going to be ego driven to justify it no matter what.
I hear the firmware update is about to be released.
Had the 100 not existed their strategy might have worked. As it stands they provided their own (albiet still painfull in price /performance ratio) exemplar, then added 20 bucks or so worth of new electronics and doubled the price.
I would still love to hear what MQS is really defined as. I pesonally knew 2 Sony label artists who mastered albums on the road on portable Minidisc recorders, is that MQS? :-00
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I'd wonder if they are compared side-by-side with other DAP, what would it be?
I personally tried AK100 default. I was like, well, I should go and get IPC+RX III with a lil topup. It perplexed me as to how this thing sold like wildfire. Well, I guess someone would eventually call me the ones whose ears are not "gifted".
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I'd wonder if they are compared side-by-side with other DAP, what would it be?
I personally tried AK100 default. I was like, well, I should go and get IPC+RX III with a lil topup. It perplexed me as to how this thing sold like wildfire. Well, I guess someone would eventually call me the ones whose ears are not "gifted".
Emperor's New Clothes?
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I'd wonder if they are compared side-by-side with other DAP, what would it be?
I personally tried AK100 default. I was like, well, I should go and get IPC+RX III with a lil topup. It perplexed me as to how this thing sold like wildfire. Well, I guess someone would eventually call me the ones whose ears are not "gifted".
I actually like the sound of the AK 100 with my UERMs, but after three months I just got sick of the interface. I also found myself deleting 192/24 albums because they take up too much space. Going back to iOS devices.
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I'm going to have a serious talk with the guys at iriver at THE Show Newport. I'm thinking this is one of those cases where I will write a negative review. The price doesn't bother me as much as being a device that doesn't live up to the price.
I'm thinking they priced it that way to limit the number sold as they develop the product on the backs of rich people who can afford it, and then can afford to throw it out as better versions become available. If their price was lower they'd end up with more complaints from people who really stretched their wallets to buy.
It amounts to grandstanding and getting PR on the back of a flagship product that doesn't really measure up. Pretty sad really.
May I suggest something?: bring an old Rockboxed H1x0 or H3x0-series loaded up with reference tracks and let them play with it. It might help them to know that the old iRiver DAPs had features that just worked without fancy gimmicks.
This audio hobby has made me very picky. When I sometimes look at what is for sale I just walk out happy to have money for coffee and music...
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Edit: 1st post!
how much is an WM8740 chip? 5usd? 10usd each?
As far as I can tell about $5.70 from most distributors. The high-end WM8741 is about $13.40.
Ha. I was wondering how my lowly Fiio E07K could have the same DAC as the AK.
I listened to the AK100 at the NY audio show last April and was surprised at how weak the amp was. If you're paying that much for a DAP it should have an amp that can drive equally expensive headphones that are more often than not inefficient. The EQ is a joke too; a 5-band parametric that seems like an afterthought thrown in for those heretics that go against the code of the audiophile and use an equalizer instead of buying $$$$ tube amps to color the sound. ::) When I dared to ask the sales rep how much the AK100 cost, I had to struggle not to open my mouth wide in disbelief.