CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => The Meeting Place => Topic started by: Out Of Your Head on May 11, 2014, 08:42:05 AM
-
Awesome meet today. Thanks to everyone especially Luis for hosting the meet.
I actually had a chance to listen this time. I really enjoyed hearing everything.
I posted some photos on my blog. (Not sure if I could post that many photos here):
https://fongaudio.com/mini-headphone-meet-in-los-angeles/ (https://fongaudio.com/mini-headphone-meet-in-los-angeles/)
-Darin
-
Quick Meet Impressions
Oppo PM-1 poo
First thing I listened to at the meet. Keeping in mind that the last thing I listened to was the Abyss the night before, my immediate impression of the Oppo PM-1 was very smooth tonally, good FR balance although maybe laid back and rolled, but otherwise a POS. Too slow sounding, kind of a mush and veil in the fundamental region, and way too closed in without any sense of openness or depth. After additional headtime, and avoiding anything else in the room, I grew to feel that the PM-1 was OKAY. That is OKAY when taken by itself not comparing to anything else in the room. Of course, not comparing it to anything else is nonsense considering its ~$1200 price.
With direct comparison to other headphones on the AGD M7 / 4-45 setup, I ultimately felt the PM-1 was the second worst headphone in the room. Only the $23 Tascam sounded worse, and even then the Tascam had certain traits which were better. The PM-1 was easily bettered by the $350 HD600 and HE-560 (more on this later.)
Still scratching my head on this one because good smooth tonal response is a priority of mine, and the PM-1 does do the FR right. However in all other aspects, the PM-1 is fail. Usually, it's the other way around. It just goes to say that good FR is not everything.
HiFiMan HE-560 :)p1
The new HFM HE-560 is awesome. I was shocked a little bit at the new price tag, but this is a really really good sounding headphone which is worth the price. A bit more resolving and much cleaner bass than the HE-500. A very minor treble bump when turned up (just nitpicking). Think of the HE-560 as the Abyss lite. I'm dead serious about this. Anaxilus felt the same way. I know quite a few people here are not fans of the HFM brand for various reasons, but HFM has put out a great headphone here.
Ultimately the question is: do I like there better than the LCD2r2? It comes down to which individual LCD2. I'd still take Craig's uber LCD2r2 other the HE-560, even at a few hundred more; but the the fact is, not all LCD2r2's sound the same. In fact, I'd have to say that I'd take the HE-560 over 90% of the LCD2r2s I've heard. A good LCD2r2 sample has better technicalities in terms of speed and delineation which outweigh its IMO less desirable / too rolled FR.
BTW, very comfortable. Feels light with the suspension headband. The new headband is light years better than the old assembly which tended to snap into several pieces.
(https://fongaudio.com/wp-content/gallery/changstar-la-meet-05-10-2014/CHG0042_7904CC_HD.jpg)
That's me with the bunch being truly impressed with the HE-560. Doesn't happen much.
-
Noble Audio FR (in R setting) :)p7
In single driver mode (R setting), this IEM provided a really nice coherent full bodied sound (the F setting was too bassy). Really can't say anything more because I really don't have any complaints for what it is. I got a few other guys to take a listen to this and I believe there was almost universal agreement that the FR on the R setting was pretty darn good. Think of it as a twin of sorts to the ER-4S, where the FR(R) is the opposite side of the coin - not being as lean / bright / analytical as the ER-4S, but with every bit just as much coherence throughout the band.
Someone brought up the point of having two switch settings when it was obvious that most all of us the preferred the R setting, and any bass boost could be applied on the player if needed. It certainly would have shaved some cost to limit the options and provide only the R single driver mode. Some pricing numbers were thrown about ~$350. I immediately told Brannan @ Noble I would probably buy several and give them as gifts to my wife or friends who would appreciate it if an FR (R mode only) IEM were produced at the price. And that I would shill the hell out of it too on HF, here, etc. (well not shill, because I would honestly love the product), if such a product were made. I plan on keeping my word to Brannan, so the ball is in his court.
A thumbs up to Brannan for braving such a tough crowd.
Astell & Kern AK120 (vs AK240)
Nothing new here other than to re-confirm that the sonics of the AK120 are way better than the AK240. The AK240 sounds dead and boring like all other Cirrus chip based DAC's I've heard. What waste. Play DSD natively on the AK240 to only have it sound worse than PCM on the AK120. Supposedly the AK240 is better with balanced outs, but I'm not going to take the trouble of doing that for a portable. Portables are supposed to be simple.
EC 4-45 and HE-6 (modded)
The 4-45 can power inefficient orthos. At this one pair of modded HE-6s (which were very good sounding BTW and nothing like the stock HE-6.) In fact, bass quality from the 4-45 (still a few watts at most) was better (tighter, less mushy, less farty) than some hefty solid-state amps. Go figure. Quality > quantity. Always.
LCD-X
Warren's LCD-X was pretty good sounding. Nothing at all like the initial one I received which had a thin tonality (when no bass was playing), a slight spike in the treble, and severe lack of coherence between the bass/mids and treble.
-
My impressions from Head-Fi:
Got a good chance to compare the HE560 to my own HD600 today. Level matched but on different amps.
I found that the HE560 still had a bit of that treble tizz that gets to me when listening at high levels. Not too different from what I remember the HE500 actually. In direct comparison, the HD600 had a much softer treble texture while maintaining equal (if not better/cleaner) attack. I would speculate that the HE560 does show to have a minor treble spike somewhere. Was ultimately hoping it might be more controlled and refined in the treble though.
Most of us agreed that the HE560 was superior at reproducing bass. On first listen, I actually didn't think it was significantly better. But part of it might be me preferring dynamic bass to ortho bass.
Regardless, I agree that the HE560 is an excellent headphone. Quite neutral and open-sounding which suits my two biggest priorities. But probably not good enough to pull me away from an eventual HD800 upgrade.
-
Sounds like Audeze's still being plagued by consistency issues, no wonder I thought the LCD2 I auditioned didn't sound as good as it should.
I hope the LCD-X I get is a good one. The scary part is you never know if it is or not until you have others to compare to.
-
Thanks to everyone who showed up and brought gear to share! I enjoyed seeing the usual face and some new ones, after all this time, that's what I enjoy the most about this community.
HIGHLIGHTS:
1) Hanging out with you guys!
The day goes by fast every single time we have one of these events. Here's hoping the next one isn't too far away... :)p1
2) Noble FR
I haven't really made up my mind with this...I'd love to have more head time with it to give it an honest opinion and impression. That said, the switch idea is really novel and a cool idea.
3) HE-560
The HE-560 is light and very comfy. Sound quality-wise, I was taken aback by how much they DID NOT suck. After hearing too many FAIL orthos, it was nice to see that HiFiMan continues to provide great, quality products. Kudos to Fang! I just hope all HE-560's sound like that.
4) Cavalli DIY amp
There is something special about Cavalli's house sound. This tiny little amp packed quite the punch. I want one!
LET DOWNS:
PM-1.... walk the plank2
Seriously though, and I don't criticize headphones openly for various reasons now, but this headphone is utter crap. Both PM-1's there were pure and utter poo . It really is a testament to the venerable HD600 that it can beat out a new, "top-tier" headphone at that price point. The PM-1 would make an awesome $200 headphone, but at $1200...well....yeah....not good.
-
What Cavalli DIY amp was there?
-
yay for more testimonials of the HE-560, I'm so eager to try these out now.
thanks a lot for sharing, lots of awesome stuff. seems like the coolest meet.
-
I had a great time yesterday, thanks for including me guys!
I brought along an Audio-gd Ref 5/ROC rig that I've been auditioning and considered buying. I was very pleased with the DAC, not so much with the AMP, but I was pretty impressed that the ROC held it's own against the other great amps in the room.
I think I may have one of those LCD-2's that aren't so good as I was comparing them to other phones:
The Grado HP-1000's were really spectacular, they created a sense of reality that blew me away. They were NOT comfortable however.
I was particularly enamored with Luis's Enigma and Paradox. I'm gettin me one of 'em, just not sure which one!
I had little time with the HE-560, but I liked what I heard and especially liked how light weight it felt. And they look great.
I'm not a fan of the HD600, too much emphasis and looseness in the bass to my ear, but driven by the DNA Stratus, they sounded GREAT.
The little DIY Cavalli amp that OJNeg brought had GREAT synergy with Luis's phones. There's some magic sauce in that combo - - WOW!
I also noticed a small but significant improvement when running the Paradox off Craig's 4-45 in balanced vs. single ended. Those Eddie Current amps are awesome.
And finally, I think Oppo should stick to video and transports and let Modwright, RWA, et al, deal with audio.
It was great meeting a lot of you guys and seeing those I already met, you're making a HP newbie feel very welcomed.
-
What Cavalli DIY amp was there?
Cavalli-Kan Kumisa III
http://www.amb.org/audio/ck2/
-
Some of my other impressions:
- 445 is still amazing. I really liked my HD600 on Marv's system. It's kinda ridiculous to think you could go for a 4 figure amp and 4 figure DAC to pair with a $400 headphone, but it's that good. I wouldn't blame anyone who wanted that for their end-game system.
- The rig that really surprised me was Ethan's. I listened for quite a while with my HD600 on that system and was absolutely engorged in the sound. The DNA seemed to have a very good tonal presentation; a very "complete" sounding amp so to speak. It also didn't hurt that Ethan seems to listen to a lot of similar music as I do. Not sure what the D/A was on that system though.
- I was saying this to Mike at the meet, but I really wish I could like the LCD2 more. I'm not sure whose LCD2 it was or what revision it was, but I think I'm kinda hooked to the Audeze house sound on some level. It's so good at cutting to the soul of the music, especially when driven by a top-flight system. I kind of wish I could shut my ears to all the other headphones in the room and just enjoy the LCD2 in a vacuum. But ultimately, next to other headphones (modded HD800, modded Abyss, even the HD600 or HE560), it sacrifices too much.
- Glad to see the Noble IEMs were all available for listening. I thought the Noble 4 was quite well balanced, but next to my ER4S I did not feel it was on the same level of neutrality. The FR (when switched to R) got much closer to the ER4S sound but it still wasn't quite there for me. I thought it lacked the smoothness in the treble that the ER4S has. Both did have a bassiness to them which might be desirable for some. I didn't find the extra bass that objectionable, as the ER4 is arguably bass-light.
- HE6 sounded VERY different on different amps, as Marv mentioned. I WTF'ed really hard when I first listened; I was the first to blurt out "WTF is wrong with the bass!?!". I think both Marv and Mike will testify to my level of WTF when it came to that comparison.
- Modded TH02 vs. PM1 was a good laugh. I'll let Marv or Gilberto embellish more on that. But it goes without saying that the PM1 is really not a good buy at its price point. I'll probably differ from Marv by saying that I'd take any LCD2 (that I've heard) over the PM1 easily. The Audeze is technically competent on so many more levels.
- I let burns borrow the Black Diamond to pair with his Lynx. I thought it was a very good match with the HD800. Good sense of detail and a spacious presentation that you should expect from an HD800 that is well driven. In March, the Hilo -> HD800 kinda bothered me in the treble for comparison. Might have just been the different pads though.
- I very much enjoyed Darin's software. I might look into getting that in the future
Glad to hear folks like the CKK.
-
Cool to see the Noble FR mentioned on Changstar. It's been the best universal I've tried so far, as a lot of the others I've owned/tried (Westone 3, TG334, Parterre, Kaede) had one or more things wrong I didn't like about them sonically. The F setting actually is fairly well-tuned to my ears and works well in noisy outdoor environments and with thin sounding music. It adds thickness and a bad-for-quiet-conditions-and-well-recorded-music-but-fun-with-crap-recordings bump in the bass.
For $700, I'd personally take it over anything I've tried at a higher price point. If the reference setting was released alone at $350, that'd be an absolute steal to me.
Interestingly enough, Noble mentioned that they can add on the R setting as a switch to their CIEMs as well. If I didn't already have the FR and a pair of customs I'm happy with, that probably would have been something I'd have looked into.
-
Agree with the consensus view, a Noble R at $300-350 would be a category-killer. I liked it better than the N4, and I liked the N4 a lot. Really coherent (not a huge surprise for a single-armature design), with no obvious blips (up or down) in the FR. Brannan, put me on the pre-order list. :)p1
Black Diamond is a really solid value at the price point. Thinking fairly seriously about grabbing one. BD and Hilo bring out the best in each other, and in HD 800.
Keep an oven mitt handy if you're going to run a GeekOut 1000 for extended periods. Not surprisingly for a teeny-weeny aluminum chassis with a Class A amp in it, that sucker gets HOT. But it redefines what's possible in that category.
HE 560 is the first HifiMan phone I've liked. Very listenable. No major flaws. Not likely to steal me away from HD800, but I could live with it if I had to.
And of course, the portable drive that wouldn't work at the meet powered up and mounted as soon as I got home. :)p13
-
Thanks for posting all your impressions.
If possible, can any of you comment more about what you thought of Alex's modded Oppo's?
He tells me that he modded just about every aspect of the Oppo's. Not just the pads, and damping materials but also the driver itself, etc. I guess the mods were pretty extensive.
Did anyone spend much time comparing the modded Oppo's? Or since the stock Oppo's were not very well liked, did you pretty much "write off" the modded Oppo's too?
I know Warren and a few others preferred the stock Oppo's over the modded ones. But I really felt the modded Oppo's were night and day different in a good way.
Thanks,
-Darin
-
The undisputed star of the meet. Damn, that's a big dog.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/burnspbesq/monsterdog1_zps0752349f.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/burnspbesq/media/monsterdog1_zps0752349f.jpg.html)
-
Thanks for having me guys! :) As I didn't have to lift a finger for this meet, I actually got to listen to stuff.
Noble's R driver mode (via my AK120):
I thoroughly enjoyed Noble's R (single BA driver) mode in the two products I auditioned (their PR and FR universals). In both cases, the R driver was more balanced and coherent with surprisingly good extension at both ends. A simplistic way of looking at it would be to imagine an RE-400 with more body and richness, or an ER-4 that isn't as compressed or narrowband sounding.
I agree with everyone that there should be an R model at a reduced price. For many of us there, the R conjured up the image of a $300~$350 universal unit to serve as a back-up to our UERMs. That price is just a rough estimate though, as I think we all envisioned it as a competitor to the ER-4S/ER-4PT. So as long as the price would be on par with such, it should be a winner.
Regarding the F mode of the FR, it's basically moar bass (though not offensively more). It's fine, I found no fault with it. Though, for me, it would see limited usage versus the R setting.
Regarding the P mode of the PR, I think the jury is still out on that for me. It's higher impedance and lower sensitivity - and it was plainly evident that my AK120 wasn't doing it justice. If anyone is thinking about auditioning the PR, please make sure you intend to supply it with ample amplification.
Eddie Current 4-45 (with my LCD-X):
I'm reluctant to say more pending a more extensive audition, but this is a very, very, VERY good amp. I'm not sure my LCD-X had the best synergy with it, and I didn't try the 4-45 with any other headphones. But what I did hear was mighty impressive. It was a very stable and even keeled presenation with no faults to speak of, definitely reference.
Oppo PM-1 (via Marv's 4-45):
And finally, the Oppo PM-1. Let me start by pointing out that I was not listening to one of my own tracks, nor was I listening to it on my gear, and it wasn't a very long audition. And yes, it's possible that there was a defect (in both drivers?), or there is some wild build variance at work/play here. Having thrown all of those reservations out... I didn't enjoy the PM-1.
I think I remarked that it was like listening to a band playing at one end of a 50ft carpeted cylinder, while I was at the other, with both ends of the cylinder closed off. It was intimate and distant at the same time, which was something I've never experienced before. Very peculiar.
At the end of the day, I would have to classify it as one of the biggest disappointments of the past year for me... along with the TH500RP prototype at CanJam. I actually think Marv is being a little kind here WRT the SQ. Comfort was pretty good though!
-
Some of my thoughts....
- Oppo PM-1 (stock) - I was expecting some weird treble response or recession. However, I do not feel these lack bass or treble. I actually think they are pretty neutral and have good balance. They are pretty comfy and I personally like the looks. The cans are IMO fairly smooth and do not hurt my ears. That said, there is indeed a bit of mushiness and low-fi-ness to these. Like Marv said, on their own they are pretty good, but relative to other cans, they start to loose ground. Problem area for me is in the bass and lower mids region, and indeed measurements seem to indicate this (will post that later). So while I don't think these are horrible, I feel something like a set of HD600s can do much better for a lot less. On a more positive note, the box these came with is out of this world, and makes Stax and Audezee boxes look like pieces of sh1t. These are an awesome un-boxing video waiting to happen. A very decent set of cans if they were $250 minus the box for the $$$ sensitive folks that don't care.
- Oppo PM-1 (mod) - Same as above, but perhaps a little more treble and bass on these.
- HE-560 - I like these quite a bit. They felt lite for a planar can. I think OJ had these level matched running against his HD600's. One was being powered by the Black Diamond while the other out of his DIY Cavalli amp. I can't remember which amp powered which can, but both rigs sounded awesome. I felt the HE-560 had a edge in the bass area though. Like.
- Noble Audio Stuff - Heard both the FR and PR, like the R setting in both cases. To me the R was much more resolving and cleaner. I feel the 4 is also pretty resolving, but I would prefer a little more bass, and the 10 delivers this to my ears. I know some folks felt the 10 was a little to bassy, but I liked almost everything about it except the price tag.
- Modded TH-02 - Awesome. It's a bit bass heavy but fairly clean. The pads fitted me really well.
- Ostry IEMs - Luis brought these over and let me have a listen, and really liked them. These are dynamic type and deliver good impact w/o sacrificing resolution much. Will spend more time w them.
- Darin's setup - Very convincing multi-channel demo with the 009s. Awesome!
Also, awesome venue for the meet! Nice to hang out at the penthouse.
-
Must have missed the LCD-X. I still haven't had a chance to really listen to it, outside of short sessions on unfamiliar gear that confirmed that it still carries the Audeze house sound.
-
Reference Sounds/Paradox Audio Enigma:
I've got a review on these coming out at Audio360 soon, but I don't believe I've been coy about how much I enjoy it. I would like to mention that I examined the new Hemo finish in person. The hues are much nicer and richer than pics would lead one to believe. So if that's the direction you're leaning in, go forth and have no fear.
TMRaven, I don't know what tolerance/yield is like for LCD-X units. But from informal auditions with several units over time, I can tell you that the number of LCD-X units that sound like mine seem to outweigh those that don't in roughly a 3:1 ratio. Hope you score one you like. :)
OJNeg, I thought that was the Black Diamond! Too bad I wasn't sure and didn't get any time on it. Given how much Romy praises it, I really should have spent some time with it. Next time, we'll pair my LCD-X with and right a wrong for both of us.
Burns, LOL @ the drive.
Darin, I don't think I spent any time with the modded Oppo. I don't mean this to sound as harsh as it might, but I eschewed auditioning to the modded one because I didn't have any hope that it would be redeemed.
The undisputed star of the meet. Damn, that's a big dog.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/burnspbesq/monsterdog1_zps0752349f.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/burnspbesq/media/monsterdog1_zps0752349f.jpg.html)
Lol, dat dog! For those of you who need a frame of reference, I should note that the man and woman in the background are neither petite nor dimunitive.
-
Thanks for posting all your impressions.
If possible, can any of you comment more about what you thought of Alex's modded Oppo's?
He tells me that he modded just about every aspect of the Oppo's. Not just the pads, and damping materials but also the driver itself, etc. I guess the mods were pretty extensive.
Did anyone spend much time comparing the modded Oppo's? Or since the stock Oppo's were not very well liked, did you pretty much "write off" the modded Oppo's too?
I know Warren and a few others preferred the stock Oppo's over the modded ones. But I really felt the modded Oppo's were night and day different in a good way.
Thanks,
-Darin
Better clarity and air, removed quite a bit of that veil in exchange for increased treble presence and harshness (a bit too much of each). I'd suspect an increased but rather narrow treble peak, ringing and/or distortion. Felt a bit less muddy and suffocating but more fatiguing.
-
Any further thoughts on the HE-6 at the meet? (In particular, I'm interested in the mods.) I recently switched to a speaker amp-based HE-6 system (and sold everything but the HD800, which I'm holding on to only because I'm tired of selling/buying/selling/etc them.)
-
Ohhgourami's rig (modded HE-6 + Krell + M1 + M7) was the best sound at the meet for me.
Couldn't find any fault with it, even the bass: it's hard to judge bass at a meet with some noise around but I honestly don't understand how someone could fault it, especially next to a HD-600 :-Z.
Simply works for me.
-
Clem: Did you compare the HE6 driven by the 445?
-
gourami's modded HE-6 I liked quite a bit. None of that HE-6 treble etch. Worked really well on the 4-45. Unbelieveable, the bass was tighter on the 4-45 compared to the M1+Krell combo. We even removed the resistors on the Krell, and the bass was still better on the 4-45. Go figure.
-
If anyone saw the PM-1 thread (original one) at Head-Fi, I am the one who first pointed out the lower mids' distortions on the PM-1 (based on the About.com measurements) and was criticized for nitpicking a possibly inaudible thing.
I have not heard speakers/headphones with precisely that amount of distortion at THat frequency, precisely that frequency response, and precisely that distortion profile in other frequency range. But I have heard that amount of distortion in a similar frequency range in a distortion sweep (and in music) during my speaker build---I am a long-time speaker DIY'er. Whether one likes it or not (preference is a totally different matter), it IS audible in program materials.
Most importantly, however objectionable it is subjectively, I would not purchase (and not recommend others buying) a $1,100 pair of headphones with that anomaly on measurements.
Other than that, I do not see any clear problems on Ultrabike's measurements. A little bass-shy compared to other PM headphones, but that may be preferred depending on individuals.
-
I like Ohhgourami a lot, great guy. Sorry but in my opinion I think the Krell sounds god awful and it's the second time I've heard it even after new changes. Slow, dark, muddy and bloated. Hate to say it, but power amps for the HE6 only seem to convince me that most people are coloring the HE6 and liking it rather than driving it to magical levels of power and performance. I'm pretty sure if I had to do a blind test between the HE6 into that Krell versus the HE6 into the Meridian Explorer I would not be able to tell the difference. Or one could just get one of the plethora of inevitable used Oppo PM1s about to flood the market and plug it into an iPhone. This is just my off the wall opinion after clearly waking up on the wrong side of the bed.
The 445 was pretty clearly superior in just about every way imaginable with the HE6.
And yes, they clearly scaled better on a sucky distorting tube amp versus the monster SS Krell. Go figure.
-
Crest CA2 coming in on Wednesday. Will see if it beats my Krell.
But for the time being, quit bashing on my Krell, you're ruining the resale value. ;)
-
If anyone saw the PM-1 thread (original one) at Head-Fi, I am the one who first pointed out the lower mids' distortions on the PM-1 (based on the About.com measurements) and were criticized for nitpicking a possibly inaudible thing.
Possibly inaudible? Sheesh. It was immediately apparent.
Ask Mike what I said after 15 seconds of listening to the live "Hotel California" with the PM-1 on Craig's 4x45: "It sounds like the nylon-string guitar is being run through an overdrive pedal."
-
If anyone saw the PM-1 thread (original one) at Head-Fi, I am the one who first pointed out the lower mids' distortions on the PM-1 (based on the About.com measurements) and were criticized for nitpicking a possibly inaudible thing.
Possibly inaudible? Sheesh. It was immediately apparent.
Ask Mike what I said after 15 seconds of listening to the live "Hotel California" with the PM-1 on Craig's 4x45: "It sounds like the nylon-string guitar is being run through an overdrive pedal."
Yup, first time I heard them at our mini meet months ago, maybe 3-4 seconds of headtime before being ripped off. Luis was probably the same. Marv lasted longer because it had no treble to worry about lol.
To be fair, I think these were a slightly bit less dark and veiled than the prototypes I recall from the last meet.
-
If anyone saw the PM-1 thread (original one) at Head-Fi, I am the one who first pointed out the lower mids' distortions on the PM-1 (based on the About.com measurements) and was criticized for nitpicking a possibly inaudible thing.
Yeah, I pretty much quit that thread on HF after the mods shifted things around because the thread got heated going into measurements and PM-1 fanboys started to cry. My beef with the about.com measurements, which i did point out in the HF thread, was with the the distortion measurement y-scale going from 0% to 50% in linear fashion when our hearing is logarithmic. Ultra's non-linear distortion measurements (which are scaled properly) for the PM-1 on this site tell us much more.
BTW 3-4% at 300Hz is audible and it's high. Contrary to popular belief, high distortion doesn't necessarily sound like guitar distortion effects or clipping. It usually sounds more like veil, blur, mush, or in more general terms "low fidelity suckyness".
-
If possible, can any of you comment more about what you thought of Alex's modded Oppo's?
The mods did add some air, but elevated the mid treble, thereby introducing an incoherent balance between the lower and upper registers. It almost fools you into thinking you are getting more openness and sense of space. Until you realize it doesn't.
I know Alex likes the PM-1 quite a bit; but I have to say that while I do appreciate what the mods are trying to do, the PM-1 modded is still sucky. Just a different flavor of sucky.
Seriously, there are so many headphones far better than the PM-1 at near or below it's cost point (Paradox Slants, Enigma, HE-560, LCD-2r2, etc.)
-
I didn't like it. :( There was no part of that audition that I liked. I'd happily give it another go to try and pinpoint why I didn't like it, but I didn't even bother trying to figure out why I didn't like it since I was there to have a good time. Who knows, maybe we'll hear a better one soon? I'm certainly not ruling out that there was some very wrong with the one we heard.
-
If anyone saw the PM-1 thread (original one) at Head-Fi, I am the one who first pointed out the lower mids' distortions on the PM-1 (based on the About.com measurements) and was criticized for nitpicking a possibly inaudible thing.
Yeah, I pretty much quit that thread on HF after the mods shifted things around because the thread got heated going into measurements and PM-1 fanboys started to cry. My beef with the about.com measurements, which i did point out in the HF thread, was with the the distortion measurement y-scale going from 0% to 50% in linear fashion when our hearing is logarithmic. Ultra's non-linear distortion measurements (which are scaled properly) for the PM-1 on this site tell us much more.
BTW 3-4% at 300Hz is audible and it's high. Contrary to popular belief, high distortion doesn't necessarily sound like guitar distortion effects or clipping. It usually sounds more like veil, blur, mush, or in more general terms "low fidelity suckyness".
PM-1...a new entry into low fidelity suckyness.
Marvey, you should trademark that phrase.
-
Okay hold on guys... the more I think about this, the more I can't help wondering if that was a bad unit. I mean seriously, when was the last time you heard a headphone like that - regardless of type or price range?
Being totally serious about this. I mean, that was just, not right.
-
Okay hold on guys... the more I think about this, the more I can't help wondering if that was a bad unit. I mean seriously, when was the last time you heard a headphone like that - regardless of type or price range?
Being totally serious about this. I mean, that was just, not right.
Well, I heard Alex's stock production unit a couple weeks ago but I didn't really listen too hard to the stock ones at the meet since I had already heard Alex's pair. However, I did listen to the stock pair at the meet and nothing stood out to me as sounding better or worse than Alex's stock PM-1's. Of course there could be some variation from one unit to the next, but I don't think we're talking about a defective pair. (I don't have golden ears like all of you though.)
-
I think Tyll talked to Igor about it and he agreed that the distortion issues in the midrange were expected from the driver limitatons:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/685704/oppo-pm-1-a-new-planar-magnetic-headphone/1590#post_10472455
I got higher distortion numbers at 90 dB SPL though.
-
Everyone at the meet would have been fine with the PM-1 had it been priced at $350 or less. $1100+ deserves another level of scrutiny.
-
Everyone at the meet would have been fine with the PM-1 had it been priced at $350 or less. $1100+ deserves another level of scrutiny.
I totally agree with this.
At $350 I might recommend it. At $250 it would be a no-brainer but at $1100+....uhmm....NO.
The HE560 is lighter, more comfortable and an all around better performer at under $1000.
-
Didn't Oppo ask folks where these should be priced?
-
I like Ohhgourami a lot, great guy. Sorry but in my opinion I think the Krell sounds god awful and it's the second time I've heard it even after new changes. Slow, dark, muddy and bloated. Hate to say it, but power amps for the HE6 only seem to convince me that most people are coloring the HE6 and liking it rather than driving it to magical levels of power and performance. I'm pretty sure if I had to do a blind test between the HE6 into that Krell versus the HE6 into the Meridian Explorer I would not be able to tell the difference. Or one could just get one of the plethora of inevitable used Oppo PM1s about to flood the market and plug it into an iPhone. This is just my off the wall opinion after clearly waking up on the wrong side of the bed.
The 445 was pretty clearly superior in just about every way imaginable with the HE6.
And yes, they clearly scaled better on a sucky distorting tube amp versus the monster SS Krell. Go figure.
I rarely post my impressions, but feel compelled to do so now. Regarding Krell, I've never understood its draw on the HF HE-6 thread. Never considered it for my speaker system, and would not consider it for headphones, but is it the same as Meridian Explorer? Of course not. That's just silly talk. As for using speaker amps for HE-6, it's unfortunate that it has become a punch-line for non-believers and a self-defeating mantra for believers because there really can be impressive results when the right amp is found. And what is the right amp? Well, does it really matter if it's head- or speaker-based amp so long as its signature matches your sonic DNA? Many of the posters on the HF thread bend over backwards to cite rational justifications for speaker amps in order to combat the naysayers who use the concept of volume to disprove the need for speaker amps. It's a silly game.
I sold the rest of my headphones and head amps and removed bookmarks to HF FS forums and audiogon once I heard a HE-6 through a Pass INT30A, which btw is only 30 watts at 8 ohms. Nothing I've owned (BA, Stratus, Liquid Glass, S7, Woo WA5LE, First Watt J2 w/HD800, HE-6, LCD3, TH900, W3000Anv) or auditioned (LL2 w/009) comes close. At some point, I hope folks stop trying to justify or dismantle someone's amp choice (assuming it's a genuine one). Full disclosure: my speaker system is also Pass-based (X250.5 and XP20), so I clearly like its "color". There is an amp (Pass INT30A) that I enjoy and I'm grateful that there is a pair of headphones (HE-6) that allow me to hear it. It's really that simple.
-
Hi,
This is my First post and English is my Second language so please take it easy on me. My name is Alex Zaets and I was the one who modified the PM-1s in question.
First of all I have to say a big THANK YOU for all the critique, I just LOVE the honesty and truth no matter how hard it hits me. Have to admit initially I would always get mad but then good critique pushes me into thinking hardest and what can be better then such a free stimulator. I personally consider myself to be brutally honest with everyone/everything and after reading through posts on this forum am hoping to partner with similar souls. Some of you I have already had great pleasure of meeting and arguing with and others I am hoping to personally meet in the future.
Here is my story with Oppo: I was one of their beta testers and with all my impressions dealt directly with Igor. I gave a lot of critique, basically most if not all the points that were addressed online through all the forums up until now one could read in my emails to Igor from long ago. This means even though I always saw strengths of this headphone there was weaknesses that I personally could never live with. As some of you well know I do DSP and saw an opportunity to correct yet another headset with my algorithms.
The problem was no matter how I try it wasn't coming along well enough with my PM-1. Therefore I decided to try and do my first ever modification.
First problem arose in the process when my left and right drivers measured +_3db different throughout the entire FR (probably the reason why my beta unit sounded slightly more dull then retail versions as was noted earlier in this thread). I pretty much had to not only build a mod for each driver separately but since what was best for one wasn't as good for the other I had to allow a few compromises for the drivers to mach with each other as good as possible in overall response. My end result was +_ 0.5db throughout the entire range between the two! Another issue I too late found out about was the pads I used, they were the ones every beta tester disliked and for a good reason. Later on Oppo reps told me they measured bad in their own testing because of the foam material used but for me it didn't matter as I had no other choice (retail units now have a totally different foam for velour pads). So I dealt with what I had because one of my main goals was to save the original look and craftsmanship.
In the end what had to be modified was: the driver itself, the pads enclosures, the dampening materials, the inner shell structure and materials. The end result was much flatter FR, further extended low and high frequency, bigger and more open soundstage through significant changes in inner and outer dampening materials/structure, total disappearance of bumps in 200-500hz range etc, etc.
Unfortunately no driver is perfect and the smoother the response the easier it becomes to notice the slightest issue. In the case of my modded unit I left approximately 1.5db rise in the 3-4.5khz range that became apparent to some. Guilty, I admit......won't happen again;-). But to say my unit was similar or just plain bad in a different way as was the original is hardly possible. I challenge anyone to put their reference headset against this Oppo (well, ok. tight after that little HF bump is gone ;-) give it a serious listen/measurement and really judge the summary of all sound components to see if my PM-1 is such a sucker.
As for the measurements it now shows +_2.5db over entire range for both ears, anyone wants to challenge that?
Looking forward to a good discussion.
Best regards
Alex
-
I like Ohhgourami a lot, great guy. Sorry but in my opinion I think the Krell sounds god awful and it's the second time I've heard it even after new changes. Slow, dark, muddy and bloated. Hate to say it, but power amps for the HE6 only seem to convince me that most people are coloring the HE6 and liking it rather than driving it to magical levels of power and performance. I'm pretty sure if I had to do a blind test between the HE6 into that Krell versus the HE6 into the Meridian Explorer I would not be able to tell the difference. Or one could just get one of the plethora of inevitable used Oppo PM1s about to flood the market and plug it into an iPhone. This is just my off the wall opinion after clearly waking up on the wrong side of the bed.
The 445 was pretty clearly superior in just about every way imaginable with the HE6.
And yes, they clearly scaled better on a sucky distorting tube amp versus the monster SS Krell. Go figure.
I rarely post my impressions, but feel compelled to do so now. Regarding Krell, I've never understood its draw on the HF HE-6 thread. Never considered it for my speaker system, and would not consider it for headphones, but is it the same as Meridian Explorer? Of course not. That's just silly talk. As for using speaker amps for HE-6, it's unfortunate that it has become a punch-line for non-believers and a self-defeating mantra for believers because there really can be impressive results when the right amp is found. And what is the right amp? Well, does it really matter if it's head- or speaker-based amp so long as its signature matches your sonic DNA? Many of the posters on the HF thread bend over backwards to cite rational justifications for speaker amps in order to combat the naysayers who use the concept of volume to disprove the need for speaker amps. It's a silly game.
I sold the rest of my headphones and head amps and removed bookmarks to HF FS forums and audiogon once I heard a HE-6 through a Pass INT30A, which btw is only 30 watts at 8 ohms. Nothing I've owned (BA, Stratus, Liquid Glass, S7, Woo WA5LE, First Watt J2 w/HD800, HE-6, LCD3, TH900, W3000Anv) or auditioned (LL2 w/009) comes close. At some point, I hope folks stop trying to justify or dismantle someone's amp choice (assuming it's a genuine one). Full disclosure: my speaker system is also Pass-based (X250.5 and XP20), so I clearly like its "colour". There is an amp (Pass INT30A) that I enjoy and I'm grateful that there is a pair of headphones (HE-6) that allow me to hear it. It's really that simple.
K, I'm not sure what you are trying to infer from my post. I've heard the rig in question (twice) and you haven't as far as I can tell. It sounds exactly like I said it does compared to a Meridian Explorer, that was not a joke or exaggeration. I wasn't 'dismantling' anything if that comment was directed at me. I don't think I said anything about your Pass so no need to get all defensive and snide with my impressions alright? Thx. Might want to be more specific than nothing comes close too. Without specifics that's just hyperbole that might be hard for some to take seriously. I mean you're posting impressions without actually offering impressions of a meet you weren't at about gear that wasn't there, kind of confused by that. I do get your point about the power amp debate conundrum and it's valid. I just don't think it's at odds with anything I said wrt most people getting it wrong. If you quoted me by mistake, then nvm.
-
Hi All,
The new HE560 looks interesting and i may want to go for it. But the really bad experience with HE400 is pulling me back. So, not judging by price, is the HE560 a significant improvement over HE400 ?
Issues i had with My Pair of HE400 :
- Poor midrange resolution
- Artificially extended, tizzy and distorted Treble
- Really grey background
Also, is the HE560 treble smooth/resolute/extended or O2 like/extended ?
-
This is my PM1 unit you all are talking about right? i can send it back to oppo to have it examined, but i doubt its a defective pair
-
I would like to thank everyone at the meet in welcoming a noob like me into the world of higher end audio. As you can tell I'm still learning and am not afraid of criticism. Anyway I should at some point get at least some of the gear that's been talked about. I did enjoy the he-560 like everyone else. Can't explain it but it sounded good on my end and it'll be something for me to watch out for. Oh yeah a dac and amp would also help. Thanks all. :)p2
-
Hi All,
The new HE560 looks interesting and i may want to go for it. But the really bad experience with HE400 is pulling me back. So, not judging by price, is the HE560 a significant improvement over HE400 ?
Issues i had with My Pair of HE400 :
- Poor midrange resolution
- Artificially extended, tizzy and distorted Treble
- Really grey background
Also, is the HE560 treble smooth/resolute/extended or O2 like/extended ?
You should be fine, the 400 and 560 are worlds apart. The 400 is kind of a one trick pony which can also be fine overall if a lot of caveats work out for you. Obviously they didn't in your case.
_____
Yeah Sach, these are yours. I don't think they are defective and share the same overall sig as the prototypes, I'm pretty sure they are working as intended. FWIW, I did say I liked them more than the modded $25 Tascams. ;P
Honestly at $300-$400 I could see them being an alternative to the 600/650 for some folks just like the AIAIAI TMA-1 were a dark alternative for other phones back in the day. But at the asking price, there is just a minimum level of performance one should expect beyond just frequency response.
-
The PM1 were better in the sense that they had a smoother overall response. But even then, the PM1 sounded more claustrophobic than anything else at the meet. At least with the modded pads, I felt the TH02 matched the PM1 in technicalities. Particularly in the bass, where the TH02 excels.
-
that's it.. its official.. my ears are poo lols
I dunno, I like the PM1..for extended listening its one of the comfiest orthos out there. One thing i do agree is that it excels at nothing but isn't horrendously bad at anything IMHo at least.
I do tend to like a darker sound signature.
In the end, I didn't have to pay anything for it thanks to Oppo so I am not complaining.
-
[quote author=Anaxilus link=topic=1589.msg42118#msg42118 date=1399969036
K, I'm not sure what you are trying to infer from my post. I've heard the rig in question (twice) and you haven't as far as I can tell. It sounds exactly like I said it does compared to a Meridian Explorer, that was not a joke or exaggeration. I wasn't 'dismantling' anything if that comment was directed at me. I don't think I said anything about your Pass so no need to get all defensive and snide with my impressions alright? Thx. Might want to be more specific than nothing comes close too. Without specifics that's just hyperbole that might be hard for some to take seriously. I mean you're posting impressions without actually offering impressions of a meet you weren't at about gear that wasn't there, kind of confused by that. I do get your point about the power amp debate conundrum and it's valid. I just don't think it's at odds with anything I said wrt most people getting it wrong. If you quoted me by mistake, then nvm.
[/quote]
Hmm, "defensive and snide"...well that pretty much puts the kibosh on any useful dialog so...on with the regularly broadcast program. But you are right about one thing, it really wasn't an "impression".
-
The mods did add some air, but elevated the mid treble, thereby introducing an incoherent balance between the lower and upper registers. It almost fools you into thinking you are getting more openness and sense of space. Until you realize it doesn't.
There really was no fooling. If you saw the original PM-1, inside there is a ton of dampening. With my mod to the driver I was able to reduce the amount of dampening materials behind it to pretty much zero. That and changes to the main enclosure brought a lot of air and openness to the sound, one just had to be accustomed to their signature a little I guess.
There was also psycho-acoustical phenomenon at play when you listen two similar sets side by side all the tiny imperfections of each one get accentuated big time and none of us can really have control over it.
Hope this helps.
-
Lol, your ears are fine Sach. Different strokes for different folks and it's all quite relative in many ways. Wish I got a free pair.
Agreed versus the Tascam but it had an immediately noticeable ragged and rough grain to the signature that is nearly inescapable by any phone under $100. I only liked the PM1 more because it was more smooth and refined sounding, but that's about it.
-
"OJ's Modded TH02's!
The golden ear-ed critics say they compete with $1000+ headphones!!!"
-
That, or the PM1 can compete with a $16 hp :)p13
-
This PM1 reminds me of the similar impressions that the Shure SRH1840s had when they were released! Heck, they were also compared to
the HD600s (well, at least I compared them to the HD600s!) At the time (and for the price) I decided to sell the Shure's and stick with the
Senns... The Oppo's seem to have a similar fate... (and sound sig, and distortion measurements, etc.)
-
Argh... forgot to bring the Focal Spirit One to the party facepalm
-
Also, should have mentioned this earlier.
A big thanks to Luis and Penthaus LA for hosting this event.
-
that's it.. its official.. my ears are poo lols
Lol sachu, at this point I think it's safe to say that I liked the PM-1 the least. It's just really not my cup of tea. Of course, that doesn't mean anything really as it's not an objective assessment at all - I just personally didn't like it by a fair margin. Then again, I also prefer the AK240 to the AK120, which goes against consensus here as well.
In any case, as long as you're happy with it, rock on!
That, or the PM1 can compete with a $16 hp :)p13
You know it's funny you say that... just remarked to someone the other day that I prefer the Koss KTXPRO1 to the PM-1. It just happens to be around $16 on Amazon.
-
And the final chapter in the story of the non-working drive can now be written.
It wasn't the drive, it was the Thunderbolt port. MacBook Air is on the way to the Apple service depot to have the port replaced.
-
Maybe if you had paid $1k for them you might hear them differently... :&
that's it.. its official.. my ears are poo lols
I dunno, I like the PM1..for extended listening its one of the comfiest orthos out there. One thing i do agree is that it excels at nothing but isn't horrendously bad at anything IMHo at least.
I do tend to like a darker sound signature.
In the end, I didn't have to pay anything for it thanks to Oppo so I am not complaining.
-
Argh... forgot to bring the Focal Spirit One to the party facepalm
I meant Spirit Pro
I really like it at work.
-
This PM1 reminds me of the similar impressions that the Shure SRH1840s had when they were released! Heck, they were also compared to
the HD600s (well, at least I compared them to the HD600s!) At the time (and for the price) I decided to sell the Shure's and stick with the
Senns... The Oppo's seem to have a similar fate... (and sound sig, and distortion measurements, etc.)
Actually the 1840 were the HD800 killers lol. Trust me, I remember that thread well. I guess the 1840 has been supplanted by the K812 these days...
-
A big thanks to Luis and Penthaus LA for hosting this event.
Yes, indeed. :) Thanks Luis, and from John Williams as well. Also, please give our thanks to Rebekkah for putting up with the geek sausage fest the whole day.
Actually the 1840 were the HD800 killers lol. Trust me, I remember that thread well.
Lol :D
-
A big thanks to Luis and Penthaus LA for hosting this event.
Yes, indeed. :) Thanks Luis, and from John Williams as well. Also, please give our thanks to Rebekkah for putting up with the geek sausage fest the whole day.
Actually the 1840 were the HD800 killers lol. Trust me, I remember that thread well.
Lol :D
Yeah dude! No worries! Rebekkah loved hosting you guys as well. Only reason she wasn't there as often as we were is because she had to do a live broadcast.