CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Vinyl Nutjob World => Topic started by: Marvey on August 20, 2015, 04:28:52 AM
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Via text to OJ: "Send me a phono pre. ASAP. Sorry for last minute notice. Got a TT"
I know quite a few of you guys have been seriously considering going to vinyl. The truth is, I've been secretly looking for table for quite a while - despite telling you guys not to go down that rabbit hole. Every now and then, a great deal, not merely a good deal, but a fantastic deal that Donald Trump would be proud of, presents itself. About a year ago, I lost out on a Clear Audio table (one of those big platter units with multiple armboards) with good tonearm on Audiogon I have been kicking myself over it since then. I had every chance in the world to click BUY, but I hesitated for about an hour. When I made up my mind, it was gone. Sold. So when I saw that this thing had dropped in price to somewhere between a multi-bit Gungnir and Yggy, I did not hesitate. I apologize to those few folks I have been in communication with concerning a DIY turntable, but this was too interesting of a table for me to pass up. After putting the numbers together, a DIY table was not going to beat this in terms of price-performance.
The VPI Classic has a two inch platter, all aluminum (actually my preference over acrylic which tends to sound too dead, unless sandwiched with other materials or loaded with lead shot). Total weight of the table is near 60 lbs. These are good things. I've always liked higher mass tables. While there were things I like and didn't like about the VPI sound (specifically the Aries, Scout, Scout Master, etc.), I figured I'd take a chance since the Classic is sort of a departure for VPI when they used to keep the motor assembly totally separate. With the Classic series, I believe the motor is attached to directly to the plinth, probably with some kind of absorption material in between. I am not totally sure so I'll defer to the resident experts like DaveBSC here who might know more about it.
In any event, I am fantastically pleased with this table. Yeah, the unipivot arm is a bit of an oddity, and I don't like how the azimuth adjustment on it works (by rotating the counterweight), but in the end, the arm and table work well as a system. And yes, IMO, this is a better table than the Aries, Scout, Scout Master tables I've heard in the past. Although as we say here: too many variables. However, I can confidently say that I extremely pleased with all aspects of playback, even with the POS Project phono-preamp, which might be one of the worst in current existence. Maybe the Creek might be worse, but that's another story. There was always a thing or two just not quite right with those other VPI tables mentioned. Still I'd take any VPI over most Rega (yuck) or non-modded Linn LP12 (OK, but yuck in specific ways). I've owned fairly expensive several tables and arms in the past, and the VPI Classic is by far the best yet.
Anyways, the joys of being a dad.
"Hey what's that? How does that work?"
"You know sound is like waves. There are little bumps on the records."
"Oh that's cool."
"Take a listen. It sounds different from CDs or computer doesn't it?"
"Yeah... it sounds different" HOLDING BOTH HANDS UP" it sounds there."
And yes, this does sound better than the Yggy, even with that horrible phono-preamp in the way. I hope you guys realize that Mike Moffat is probably listening to his Decca cartridges right now. Yeah, he's a vinyl nut. Digital sucks. But that's exactly the kind of guy who we want to make digital.
P.S. Bonus points to whoever can identify the album (not hard if you grew up during that time).
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Maybe me, OJ and Adam should do our TT/phono shootout at your place this weekend?
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Not a bad idea. I'd love to hear it and I have (yuck) Rega with a nice and light plinth (not my fav).
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I think we are running the same cart? Ortofon Black?
The Rega stuff is horrible, especially their sales pitch on their lightweight philosophy. Lightweight stuff does make worldwide sales easier though.
Meet is OK. I feel bad because you guys are always running around. But honestly, I am so burnt out from the meets and having three jobs to travel to OC this weekend. Being closer to 50 than 40 with kids who are virus magnets doesn't help either. I have to prepare to go to D.C. on behalf of my non-profit / lobbyist organization this weekend too.
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Let's do that then. Adam was headed over Sunday so let's meet at your place instead? If OJ can't make it I'll borrow his TT and phono+LPS.
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I don't mind, I'm already running around and I'll be headed north anyways :)
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I had an Aries 1, which from all my research had the best platter vpi ever made, before I came to Korea. Had a dynavector 10x5 on it, came with the jwm12 tonearm too. My weak link though was the piece of crap musical fidelity phono stage I was using. But man did that thing sound awesome to me. Pretty sad to sell it, but alas I couldn't bring it with me. Thing weighed a ton.
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oh and yes, we are running the same cart.
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Maybe me, OJ and Adam should do our TT/phono shootout at your place this weekend?
Invite struggles for SP10 epic win!
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Invite struggles for SP10 epic win!
Oh shit yeah!!
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Did you say acrylic with steel plates or lead shot? Let's do it.
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Hard to say. VPI will change stuff and say it's the best thing evar. They did weird stuff a while back with the HW-19 and actually gave it a crappier platter. The Aries 1, 2, and 3 have been discontinued. It's interesting that the Aries 3D now uses the same Classic 2" aluminum platter. For sure, the sound they have evolved to with the Classic series is a bit different. The $30K TOTL Classic is actually a direct drive TT. Yeah, DD.
It will be fun to start machining stuff like center weights, feet, periphery rings at a fraction of the cost of that VPI sells them for. Maybe Ravi can get Google scientists to make fluid damping feet.
I'm actually thinking the all aluminum platter (2" thick) might be better than an acrylic / metal composite. A better more massive plinth might be in order. I believe the Classic 3 and 4 bases have aluminum, steel, and MDF with damping sheets.
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I don't get the acrylic thing. Acrylic deforms with temperature flux and isn't as stable as other traditional materials. Seems like marketing BS to me.
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Congrats and welcome to the VPI family. I've got an upgraded but still lowly HW19 and a Traveler with the 19's mk3 platter with the clamp. Clamps[/Futurama]
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I don't get the acrylic thing. Acrylic deforms with temperature flux and isn't as stable as other traditional materials. Seems like marketing BS to me.
Less ringy and zingy. The small lightweight metal platter of my Project is that way (slightly ringy). Of course replace with the Project small acrylic, and we swing toward dead. (BTW. I had the acrylic platter during the last meet at my place). I think VPI suddenly realized... oh crap, 2" of metal won't ring. Let's chuck that acrylic.
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Easy, replace thin aluminum with 50lb copper platter with balanced Tungsten inserts. Maybe I could talk to some friends and acquire some Chobham armor sandwiched by depleted uranium plates. Don't think that would ring.
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Welcome back to the rabbit hole! The bad news: there is no bottom, and everything is expensive 8)
Count me as yet another Rega hater. A heavy table is a good table. Acrylic plinths and platters are definitely preferable to MDF, but I think you're right that metal or some kind of multi-layer composite is a better option. The 14" platter on my Ace Space 294 (with heavy kit) provides a wonderfully stable platform for what this thing cost, but I am certainly jealous of the Dais' iron platter which they spin while casting to ensure perfect uniformity. Oh and it clocks in at 50 pounds on the platter alone. The Dais table altogether is 100 pounds.
What I'm very anxious to hear is Nottingham's new Deco, which takes over for the somewhat dumb looking Anna Log as their SOTA design.
(http://audioscape.ca/wp-content/uploads/notting-deco.jpg)
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AHAHAHA!! That looks like half of a Dalek. Awesome! :)p1
The Doctor envisions Dave's future turntable. :-*
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/invaderclub/images/a/a1/Dalek_Insides.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130329213908)
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This post warms my heart man. It's a whole other ballgame trying to dial in so many more pieces of your vinyl chain, and then having to deal with what pressings sound the best for your favorite albums. I've decided that tracking down expensive first pressings aren't really my thing, and will settle on remastered pressings that sound great. The Music Matters 33.3 series Blue Notes going on right now are some of my faves, as well as the recent MFSL releases in the last few years. Color variants of new releases are my vice though, and I end up with like five copies of the same album (yes, I fall for the gimmicks).
Nice shiny vinyl there makes me believe you didn't find that Phil Collins record in the dollar bin ;D
So jealous you guys have that huge Amoeba down there. headbang
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AHAHAHA!! That looks like half of a Dalek. Awesome! :)p1
The Doctor envisions Dave's future turntable. :-*
Ha! I see it. This is an interesting setup with an O-L arm in place of one of Nottingham's unipivots. I used to have an Origin Live before I switched to the Ace Space. Nottingham beat 'em. And Michell. And everything else I got a chance to hear at under $4K.
https://youtu.be/eIkAKgCuyU8
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I hope that's going through a camera mic....
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Ha! I see it. This is an interesting setup with an O-L arm in place of one of Nottingham's unipivots. I used to have an Origin Live before I switched to the Ace Space. Nottingham beat 'em. And Michell. And everything else I got a chance to hear at under $4K.
The only other TT's that piqued my interest on the 'gon were the Nottinghams. For obvious reasons, they were local pickup only.
The VPI actually caught me by surprise. I wasn't even aware of the Classic line, which evidently has been out for about five years now. This one was a local pickup in Pasadena. One owner. I lucked out.
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Yes, that Phil Collins was from the $1 bin I picked up about 10-15 years ago. I still have the original record I bought when I was a teenager like 30 years ago, but that one has been run into the ground.
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Congrats on the purchase, that is a really nice table. :) (I own a 2013 version of the Classic 1 where they moved the motor to the back and incorporated a stripped down version of their SDS speed controller. )
You should check into picking up a Soundsmith Counter Intuitive. It will greatly improve the ease and accuracy of adjusting tracking force and azimuth.
http://sound-smith.com/intuitive/index.html
It's so useful I don't know why VPI has not yet struck a deal to have them included with the table.
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Congrats! I love this table and will be interested where you land on a phono stage. Unipivot terrifies me (slight nudge sends it flying) but the results are worth it. Can't compare to top end digital (never heard a Yggy; GMB hasn't arrived here yet) but what has always impressed me about this table is the depth of the sound you get and the physicality of the listening experience.
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Good needledrops sound amazeballs through Yggy btw.
It's like the best of both worlds since once you get the signal into the digital domain you can either flat out remove or significantly mitigate most of vinyls weak points (surface noise etc..) and fix up any recording issues like channel imbalance or baked in hum etc...
I suspect it's only a matter of time till you pick up a good ADC and start doing the Fremer thing where you walk around shows with a USB stick full of 24/192 rips p;) :)p13
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These things are relevant to my interests!
Congrats on a very nice table and I'd like to see where you go for the phono pre. Didn't Craig have the Transcription pre available for a while? IMO seems to be a good market to get into (again)!
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Congrats and welcome to the VPI family.
Congrats on the purchase, that is a really nice table. :)
Congrats!
Thanks guys. Haha, all the vinyl guys are coming out of the woodwork.
"...depth of the sound you get and the physicality of the listening experience."
Couldn't put it better than that. A good way to describe this table. The opposite of STAX. Surprising how vinyl can slam more than CDs given much more limited dynamic range of ~60db of the former. That Phil Collins record was a real treat. I suspect that because of the format's restrictions (frequency response, dynamic range, noise) the mastering engineers had to work smarter (or simply work), thus the recordings ended up be better. The other possibility, however unpopular with the Hydrogen Audio crowd, is that digital just might, might be more flat sounding.
"Didn't Craig have the Transcription pre available for a while? IMO seems to be a good market to get into (again)!"
That product was cancelled because of lack of demand. There is one more PCB left. Might be worth pursuing again now that the "Messiah" has started a trend. Given the number of people who went out to buy old Theta DACs (instead of say Hugo DACs), expect a moderate increase in prices of used VPI Classic and Nottingham tables. At least I have an in for Cinemag MC transformers.
"I suspect it's only a matter of time till you pick up a good ADC and start doing the Fremer thing where you walk around shows with a USB stick full of 24/192 rips"
Oh you know it. At least now there is a good reason for Schiit to put me on a beta list if Mike ever works on GAIN III. Would be interesting to see how a modern Moffat AD and DA chain sounds like.
"Soundsmith Counter Intuitive. "
Thank you for the link. That seems to be almost a requirement. I need a tracking force gauge to start too.
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Confirmed, Marv actually uses his kids instead for his listening impressions. Just kidding. ;)
(Pretty sweet looking TT, BTW. Would love to hear a good vinyl rig sometime!)
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Mani has been sent to the Merv
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Good needledrops sound amazeballs through Yggy btw.
It's like the best of both worlds since once you get the signal into the digital domain you can either flat out remove or significantly mitigate most of vinyls weak points (surface noise etc..) and fix up any recording issues like channel imbalance or baked in hum etc...
I suspect it's only a matter of time till you pick up a good ADC and start doing the Fremer thing where you walk around shows with a USB stick full of 24/192 rips p;) :)p13
Offer of link has been pulled.
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Marv here is your VTF scale:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Professional-Stylus-Force-Tracking-Pressure-Gauge-Scale-Gauge-led-/261885061612?hash=item3cf990e9ec
Can't remember where I read it but someone took one of these to work and tested it against a lab grade scale and it was accurate within 0.01g.
Remember you need to measure VTF at the surface of the record so the actual tracking force using this gauge is going to be about 0.1-0.2g lower then what is displayed since the scale sits a few mm higher then surface of the platter + record. If you have a cart with really tight tolerances (like my Kleos which needs to be within 0.1g) you will need to rig yourself a platform next to the platter to get it perfectly dialed in. 2M Black is 1.4-1.7g so for a quick and dirty setting dial it in to just under 1.8g and you should be just about perfect.
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There's a blog with a fellow that has a ton of 24/96 Vinyl rips that he's done himself. I don't know if I'm aloud to post a link to it though.
Marv would it be OK post the link?
pbthal? :)
Marv, congrats on a damn killer turntable! The Classic is absolutely stunning in sound reproduction. Here are some upgrades that will give you very very large upgrades in sound with your VPI:
1) VPI SDS
2) VPI Center Weight and Periphery Ring
3) Change pulley out to the HRX pulley and use 2 rubber belts around the platter rather than just one (you will need the SDS for this mod as you will need to make appropriate speed adjustments to compensate for the different pulley size).
You can expect much more dynamics, PRaT, detail, bigger tone, more textures and just a more sophisticated presentation.
Oh by the way, forget all the other digital gauges on the market. Just buy this Shure gauge. It is spot on Accurate!
NOTE: The Shure gauge tops out at 3 grams of tracking force. Works for 95% of the cartridges out there, but for example, I needed use another gauge for my new dedicated mono cartridge, the Miyajima Zero, that needs to track at 3.5 grams for mono records.
(http://www.needledoctor.com/Shure-SFG-2-Stylus-Force-Gauge-image.pjpeg)
http://www.amazon.com/Shure-SFG-2-Stylus-Tracking-Force/dp/B00006I5SD
If you want the best digital gauge on the market, this is the one, the Ortofon DS-3. It measures weight at the correct vinyl height on the bare platter:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/221568209329?ul_noapp=true&chn=ps&lpid=82
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDUwMA==/z/gR0AAOSwY45UMe9X/$_57.JPG?set_id=880000500F)
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Marv here is your VTF scale:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Professional-Stylus-Force-Tracking-Pressure-Gauge-Scale-Gauge-led-/261885061612?hash=item3cf990e9ec
Can't remember where I read it but someone took one of these to work and tested it against a lab grade scale and it was accurate within 0.01g.
Remember you need to measure VTF at the surface of the record so the actual tracking force using this gauge is going to be about 0.1-0.2g lower then what is displayed since the scale sits a few mm higher then surface of the platter + record. If you have a cart with really tight tolerances (like my Kleos which needs to be within 0.1g) you will need to rig yourself a platform next to the platter to get it perfectly dialed in. 2M Black is 1.4-1.7g so for a quick and dirty setting dial it in to just under 1.8g and you should be just about perfect.
I actually own this very scale. The Shure Gauge and the new Ortofon gauge are actually more repeatedly accurate IME.
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The only other TT's that piqued my interest on the 'gon were the Nottinghams. For obvious reasons, they were local pickup only.
The VPI actually caught me by surprise. I wasn't even aware of the Classic line, which evidently has been out for about five years now. This one was a local pickup in Pasadena. One owner. I lucked out.
Funnily enough, the prior owner of my Ace Space 294 traded it in on a VPI Classic 3. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with VPI. I like listening to their tables, don't like using them. Mainly to do with JMWs, I'm just not a fan. Nottingham's arms are also unipivots, but they are definitely less fiddly.
Now you need to get yourself a real Phono preamp. I'm a big fan of the Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ at under $1K. Lehmann's preamps are pretty good too, particularly the SE and SE II.
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I actually own this very scale. The Shure Gauge and the new Ortofon gauge are actually more repeatedly accurate IME.
Yes completely agree. I have one too as well as the scale that came with my Classic. Been meaning to order a DS-3 for myself. I figured I would throw out the $10 cheap and effective option first. :)
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There's a blog with a fellow that has a ton of 24/96 Vinyl rips that he's done himself. I don't know if I'm aloud to post a link to it though.
Marv would it be OK post the link?
If you're talking about PB, he severely frowns on people posting his site address on public forums, and it's one of the reasons why he's changed sites like 5 times already. I would advise against it.
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Yes completely agree. I have one too as well as the scale that came with my Classic. Been meaning to order a DS-3 for myself. I figured I would throw out the $10 cheap and effective option first. :)
I'm in the same boat man! I've been meaning to buy the DS-3, but I haven't pulled the trigger. Bloody $100 gauge...it is a PERFECT gauge for us analog freaks, but man, $100 for a gauge! I know I won't hold out for too long.
Funnily enough, the prior owner of my Ace Space 294 traded it in on a VPI Classic 3. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with VPI. I like listening to their tables, don't like using them. Mainly to do with JMWs, I'm just not a fan. Nottingham's arms are also unipivots, but they are definitely less fiddly.
Now you need to get yourself a real Phono preamp. I'm a big fan of the Musical Surroundings Phonomena II+ at under $1K. Lehmann's preamps are pretty good too, particularly the SE and SE II.
Yeah, the JMW unipivot arms are a little finicky, but they work so damn well! Marv, if you need any help setting that arm up, holler at me. I know that arm inside out and can adjust it absolutely PERFECTLY. If you have any questions at all, just let me know...would be glad to help. Hec, bring the turntable over to my place and I will show you all the steps I go through and set it up for you as well :)p1 Also, I don't recommend you use the anti skating device (if one is being used) and just make sure the tracking force is 0.1g higher than where you want it. It actually sounds better...the twist in the tonearm wire with the lemo connector provides more than sufficient anti skating force.
Before you buy or use any other cartridge, make sure the dynamic compliance works with the correct resonant frequency range of your tonearm, which depends on the effective mass of the tonearm. Just do the math before buying a cartridge to ensure you can extract everything out of the cartridge ;)
Phonostages, phono cables, table, arm, vibration control...it's a fun ride! Being a total electro mechanical sound reproduction method, there are many ways to optimize the sound to your OWN listening tastes.
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"...depth of the sound you get and the physicality of the listening experience."
Couldn't put it better than that. A good way to describe this table. The opposite of STAX. Surprising how vinyl can slam more than CDs given much more limited dynamic range of ~60db of the former. That Phil Collins record was a real treat. I suspect that because of the format's restrictions (frequency response, dynamic range, noise) the mastering engineers had to work smarter (or simply work), thus the recordings ended up be better. The other possibility, however unpopular with the Hydrogen Audio crowd, is that digital just might, might be more flat sounding.
There is some debate about what's the real dynamic range limit of vinyl. During the peak of elite Japanese direct drive production in the early '80s, S/NR suddenly jumped from a high of around 78dB for the best models to 95dB on tables like the Exclusive P3a, essentially matching the dynamic range limit of 16-bit digital. This stat was a bit phony though, they changed the rules to more approximate what they described as "perceived" S/NR.
I don't think there's any technical reasons why vinyl should sound better than digital, although if you're taking an album that was recorded on tape, vinyl allows you to have an analog end-to-end production process, while CD obviously doesn't, and the end result depends on the quality of the A-D conversion. I suspect this is why so many early '80s CDs suck so bad - bad ADC combined with the fact that engineers didn't really know how to master for CD yet.
Of course today CDs suck because they are mandated to suck, mastering is governed by earbuds, laptop speakers, and "competitive" loudness. If vinyl had to follow those same rules, I would just stop buying modern music altogether.
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Phonostages, phono cables, table, arm, vibration control...it's a fun ride! Being a total electro mechanical sound reproduction method, there are many ways to optimize the sound to your OWN listening tastes.
It is, I just wish it didn't cost so much. I got a very good deal on my Sutherland Duo, but it still cost as much as the Yggy.
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If you're talking about PB, he severely frowns on people posting his site address on public forums, and it's one of the reasons why he's changed sites like 5 times already. I would advise against it.
Understood, thank you.
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PB is not the blogs name or initials, and the blogger doesn't post their name.
They don't do requests unless you send them your vinyl or buy the vinyl for them.
JK, private msg me the blog please...curious to hear his rips.
It is, I just wish it didn't cost so much. I got a very good deal on my Sutherland Duo, but it still cost as much as the Yggy.
Analog, pretty much has a way of emptying out your wallet :) The rewards are way beyond anything digital at ANY price, but man, that expense sucks. Oh well...just need to earn more money to keep it all going! Sheesh.
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I've decided that tracking down expensive first pressings aren't really my thing, and will settle on remastered pressings that sound great...
As my avatar might suggest some evidence, I had an early pressing fetish from about 87-97. I'd take long trips to find remote (i.e., not picked over) thrift stores and sometime would get lucky to find 20-30 good six eyes or shaded dogs at once. These sorts of threads tempt me but I'm trying my best to stick to the convenience of digital.
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If you're talking about PB, he severely frowns on people posting his site address on public forums, and it's one of the reasons why he's changed sites like 5 times already. I would advise against it.
Another member has confirmed it is PB's site, so I will retract the offer and edit my original post.
Thanks for the info guys.
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My pre-amp search will take a while. It may end up as a DIY project. In the meantime, I will be using this $50 POS.
(http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/gallery/image.php?image_id=3870)
Don't laugh. I've only heard the Manley and EC Transcription units recently. With the Ortofon Black on the table, that "POS" above with a dedicated power supply will serve as my preamp... That is until I dial in everything else and decide to move up to a MC cart. I'm in no hurry. It's more fun to take things slowly.
I'll be trying a variety of power supplies. OJ used an AMB with excellent results. Note that the TC-750 uses no op-amps. A few parts can be swapped to change gain and improve sonics. I've been studying a few other cheapo units on eBay, including some tube designs, and I still think this design is better. With the right tweaks, this can beat typical $1000 preamps.
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I honestly think there's something about a tube preamp being analog that just seems quite right, but I haven't had the heart to venture into that crazy land yet.
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As my avatar might suggest some evidence, I had an early pressing fetish from about 87-97. I'd take long trips to find remote (i.e., not picked over) thrift stores and sometime would get lucky to find 20-30 good six eyes or shaded dogs at once. These sorts of threads tempt me but I'm trying my best to stick to the convenience of digital.
Ha! It's a lot easier going crate digging when you're not constantly trying to look at the deadwax matrix!
I do love my modest little vinyl rig though. Listen to that thing almost every day.
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Analog, pretty much has a way of emptying out your wallet :) The rewards are way beyond anything digital at ANY price, but man, that expense sucks. Oh well...just need to earn more money to keep it all going! Sheesh.
Yup, agreed. I remember when I first listened to my old Metallica and Slayer records - I was stunned at how much better they were than the first gen CDs. That difference holds up on needle drops, so it's not just the analog playback chain that makes the difference. Those old vinyl masters were just way better.
I've been able to accept how much money I've sunk into my vinyl rig by convincing myself that because I've bought everything at a significant percentage off of MSRP, that I've come out "ahead." I'm also pleased with my Ace Space/Shelter 7000/Duo combo to the point that I feel that I don't really need to do anything else. I've got the heavy kit and I've got the Wave Mechanic power supply, so speed accuracy is on point. I know the ladder goes MUCH higher - AMG V12, Amazon Grand Referenz, etc, but what I've got is pretty damn good. That Benz LP-S Class keeps calling me though. IME there is no better cart on earth for rock and metal, at least that I've heard.
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Yup, agreed. I remember when I first listened to my old Metallica and Slayer records - I was stunned at how much better they were than the first gen CDs. That difference holds up on needle drops, so it's not just the analog playback chain that makes the difference. Those old vinyl masters were just way better.
I've been able to accept how much money I've sunk into my vinyl rig by convincing myself that because I've bought everything at a significant percentage off of MSRP, that I've come out "ahead." I'm also pleased with my Ace Space/Shelter 7000/Duo combo to the point that I feel that I don't really need to do anything else. I've got the heavy kit and I've got the Wave Mechanic power supply, so speed accuracy is on point. I know the ladder goes MUCH higher - AMG V12, Amazon Grand Referenz, etc, but what I've got is pretty damn good. That Benz LP-S Class keeps calling me though. IME there is no better cart on earth for rock and metal, at least that I've heard.
Now that is a killer rig! I used to own a Shelter 90x and I've heard a 510 mkII and Harmony...the Shelter universe is extremely resolute and mesmerizing. Great choice man. There is no end to the "ladder," but I notice you can keep going up with little improvements after a certain point. I've spent a lot of time with top class vinyl playback (Kuzma XL4 with Airline and 4 Point tonearms, EAR Discmaster, SME 30/12, Kronos, AMG, Clearaudio Statement) in friends systems which I listen to frequently, and it all comes down the system synergy. If you already have that, there are gains to be had, but not THAT much more.
The Benz LP-S is absolutely killer! I used to own a Benz LP till it needed retipping. Slightly on the smoother/richer side of the listening spectrum. I went to a Dynavector XV1S...you should hear that if you can. I don't see any Benz US distributor and the last I heard, the designer was not in great health. So could be difficult to buy, and then even more difficult to service if needed. Maybe look at a Shelter Harmony if you like what u hear with the Shelter sound!
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Marv, congrats on a damn killer turntable! The Classic is absolutely stunning in sound reproduction. Here are some upgrades that will give you very very large upgrades in sound with your VPI:
Plugs ears. Closes eyes. La la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la a la la la la la la la.
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The Benz LP-S is absolutely killer! I used to own a Benz LP till it needed retipping. Slightly on the smoother/richer side of the listening spectrum. I went to a Dynavector XV1S...you should hear that if you can. I don't see any Benz US distributor and the last I heard, the designer was not in great health. So could be difficult to buy, and then even more difficult to service if needed. Maybe look at a Shelter Harmony if you like what u hear with the Shelter sound!
Oh that Kuzma Airline. One of the very best arms on earth, but SUCH a bitch to use. The Durand and Graham arms get close enough that there's just no way I could ever put up with that thing.
The main guy at Benz passed fairly recently, and it's been very difficult to get a Benz cart in the US for quite awhile. Every now and then an LP-S will show up for sale, but the servicing issue makes me nervous. The Dynavector is a sweet cart, no question, as is the Harmony MC. Another super star in the $5K class is the Miyajima Madake.
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I've spent a lot of time with top class vinyl playback (Kuzma XL4 with Airline and 4 Point tonearms, EAR Discmaster, SME 30/12, Kronos, AMG, Clearaudio Statement) in friends systems which I listen to frequently, and it all comes down the system synergy. If you already have that, there are gains to be had, but not THAT much more.
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What did you think of the Kronos table? My plan is to move from my VPI Classic to a "destination" table in the next couple of years and the Kronos is at the top of my list due to the fact the designer and manufacturing is located in Montreal which is only a 90 minute drive from me. The only thing I don't like about the Kronos is lack of a hold down mechanism (vacuum, ring etc...) and I also understand they might have had some issues with the speed controller. (it got a redesign)
First thing though is to start hitting audio shows to hear and at least get a good look at the contenders... (VPI, AMG, TechDAS, Kronos).
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What did you think of the Kronos table? My plan is to move from my VPI Classic to a "destination" table in the next couple of years and the Kronos is at the top of my list due to the fact the designer and manufacturing is located in Montreal which is only a 90 minute drive from me. The only thing I don't like about the Kronos is lack of a hold down mechanism (vacuum, ring etc...) and I also understand they might have had some issues with the speed controller. (it got a redesign)
First thing though is to start hitting audio shows to hear and at least get a good look at the contenders... (VPI, AMG, TechDAS, Kronos).
The Kronos, first of all looks absolutely amazing in person. The aesthetics are really beautiful, the fit and finish are top notch and there is excellent ease of use.
Now, the two platters are not connected at all. The bottom platter is connected to one motor and the top platter is connected to an exact replica second motor. The idea is to cancel out all torsional forces to essentially maintain an zeroed out force environment. The sound is super quiet, with an eerily quiet noise floor.
A non starter (for me personally) is the lack of dual tonearm capability. At this level of table, I want to be able to run a mono and stereo cart on a whim. The Kronos does not support that, and being a suspended design, it will be difficult to do with modifications (having to compensate for the second tonearm weight on the opposite side).
I think you really ought to look at all aspects of a destination table and a road trip to look at all contenders would be a good thing. Come by to the next SHOW at Newport and you can see most of the turntables on your list easily.
I recently helped a good friend purchase a Kuzma XL4 turntable with the Kuzma Airline and Kuzma 4 point tonearms. That turntable is a true joy to own and operate. The precision engineering is off the charts...if it were made in the USA instead of Slovenia, that table would be $150,000 easily! I thought the Kuzma Airline tonearm will be difficult to own...it is absolutely easy to use and a joy to setup! I just had to make sure the tonearm gauge has a 4.5psi pressure (gauge is right on the tonearm itself) and the arm moves frictionlessly!
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This thread deserves this image.
(http://sadpirate.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/cat-on-turntable.jpg)
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The Kronos, first of all looks absolutely amazing in person. The aesthetics are really beautiful, the fit and finish are top notch and there is excellent ease of use.
Now, the two platters are not connected at all. The bottom platter is connected to one motor and the top platter is connected to an exact replica second motor. The idea is to cancel out all torsional forces to essentially maintain an zeroed out force environment. The sound is super quiet, with an eerily quiet noise floor.
A non starter (for me personally) is the lack of dual tonearm capability. At this level of table, I want to be able to run a mono and stereo cart on a whim. The Kronos does not support that, and being a suspended design, it will be difficult to do with modifications (having to compensate for the second tonearm weight on the opposite side).
I think you really ought to look at all aspects of a destination table and a road trip to look at all contenders would be a good thing. Come by to the next SHOW at Newport and you can see most of the turntables on your list easily.
I recently helped a good friend purchase a Kuzma XL4 turntable with the Kuzma Airline and Kuzma 4 point tonearms. That turntable is a true joy to own and operate. The precision engineering is off the charts...if it were made in the USA instead of Slovenia, that table would be $150,000 easily! I thought the Kuzma Airline tonearm will be difficult to own...it is absolutely easy to use and a joy to setup! I just had to make sure the tonearm gauge has a 4.5psi pressure (gauge is right on the tonearm itself) and the arm moves frictionlessly!
Yes I think this year I will make a trip to TAVES in Toronto and maybe next year I can figure out a way to get to one of the big shows in the US. Corporate headquarters for me happens to be in Irvine (right next to UCI) so next time I travel there (usually once a year) I am going to do my best to take a few extra days and try to arrange auditions of the gear that is produced in SoCal like EC, DNA etc...
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First thing though is to start hitting audio shows to hear and at least get a good look at the contenders... (VPI, AMG, TechDAS, Kronos).
I would definitely put DaVinci Audio Labs on your list. Their tables and the Master Reference Virtu arm are fabulous. The AMG, Spiral Groove, Dr. Feickert Firebird, Acoustic Signature Ascona, and Amazon Grand Referenz are also all fantastic tables.
I have not heard the Classic Direct Drive, but I've never been particularly moved by the HR-X. In that class IMO there are much better choices.
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I would definitely put DaVinci Audio Labs on your list. Their tables and the Master Reference Virtu arm are fabulous. The AMG, Spiral Groove, Dr. Feickert Firebird, Acoustic Signature Ascona, and Amazon Grand Referenz are also all fantastic tables.
I have not heard the Classic Direct Drive, but I've never been particularly moved by the HR-X. In that class IMO there are much better choices.
Interesting tidbit by Salvatore: Supposedly the early prototypes of the HR-X with the all aluminum chassis and heavy platter instead of the production version acrylic/aluminum/acrylic chassis and acrylic platter were the ones to get. He also said the rim drive yielded improvements, albeit with more need to mess with stuff on a regular basis. Of course the add-ons start to get stupid. (Holy crap, didn't know the current HR-X is $15K now). I might call upon Ravi to DIY stuff. I wish the value proposition of VPI extended up their upper lines. Seems to take a nosedive really quickly.
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Interesting tidbit by Salvatore: Supposedly the early prototypes of the HR-X with the all aluminum chassis and heavy platter instead of the production version acrylic/aluminum/acrylic chassis and acrylic platter were the ones to get. He also said the rim drive yielded improvements, albeit with more need to mess with stuff on a regular basis. Of course the add-ons start to get stupid. (Holy crap, didn't know the current HR-X is $15K now). I might call upon Ravi to DIY stuff. I wish the value proposition of VPI extended up their upper lines. Seems to take a nosedive really quickly.
That is absolutely correct. The version preceding the VPI HR-X was the TNT 6 "Hot Rod" (which is the table that I have). They stopped production on the TNT series as the prices of getting the quality acrylic needed shot up sky high due to oil prices. VPI just couldn't get the same machined quality of acrylic slabs in the thickness that was needed. So they got thinner slabs, put in an aluminum sub chassis and bolted it all together. They also gave it some styling with the "x" shape cut. Hence the HR-X was born.
The TNT 6 came in a few versions, single motor/flywheel, dual motor/flywheel which is also called the HR-X Dual Motor, and with and without armboard. The "Hot Rod" version is with the JMW 12.5 arm drilled directly into the chassis for more rigidity. There are versions of the TNT with interchangeable armboards to accommodate various arms from other manufacturers.
For my TNT 6, I went from the frosted acrylic platter to a Super Platter and finally onto the Classic platter. Each was a progressive improvement in sound on the TNT 6. If I owned an HR-X, I would keep the Super Platter as it is more fuller sounding and just had more bass and warmth. With the TNT 6, it was slightly too much, so I went to the Classic platter after making side by side comparisons. The Classic Aluminum platter had the best synergy with the already full and rich sounding TNT 6. Again, as usual, it is all about synergy between the components. :)p6
A major improvement in PRaT was gotten with moving from the standard belt drive to a rim drive.
Here is the table before the dual tonearm upgrade I did recently:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15717546527_027d1fea1a_c.jpg)
Here is is after the dual tonearm setup:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/276/19446885153_7c8f235cb2_c.jpg)
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aahhhhhhh! I'll need to pay you a visit. Must resist goodies.
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aahhhhhhh! I'll need to pay you a visit. Must resist goodies.
You are welcome anytime! Get that butthead Luis with you as well...he's been meaning to come over but he is always crazy busy!
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You are welcome anytime! Get that butthead Luis with you as well...he's been meaning to come over but he is always crazy busy!
I'll do that. Luis seems MIA lately. I'll try to find him.
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Ok vinyl gurus, don't mean to hijack this thread but just want to ask a quick question about an issue I've got that's made me stop listening to my TT.
Got a second hand Technics a few years ago, and the stylus was shot so ordered an AT one from Amazon, couple of hundred bucks. Since then I've always had a channel imbalance which I suspect is due to a fault in the stylus itself - I've swapped stylus, swapped LR, swapped preamps, etc. I've tried realigning the stylus to no end with no improvement (as that's what my googling turns up as the main fix to the problem).
Are there any other checks I can do? I'm thinking of doing a resistance check from RCAs to headshell pins (loose internal wiring maybe?). Or should I just bite the bullet and get another stylus, sigh...
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pins?
phono-pre? (try swapping channels)
alignment (doubtful if you've already checked)
anti-skate/VTA?
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Merv, applause for the expression on your daughter's face. Priceless :)
Quite apart from the endless-cost possibility, Vinyl breaks my heart. I play a record, with enormous care; put it back in its sleeve, with enormous care; next time I play it, there's another scratch. I can't stand it. I'll stick to digital. Somehow, this doesn't happen to everyone, and if you can keep LPs clean and relatively scratch-free, then I wish you joy.
There is certainly nothing like the tactile, sensuous experience of playing a record.
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Quite apart from the endless-cost possibility, Vinyl breaks my heart. play a record, with enormous care; put it back in its sleeve, with enormous care; next time I play it, there's another scratch. I can't stand it.
That's the whole point of it! Impermanence. Rather than run away from it, embrace it. There's sweetness in knowing that all those records you love won't last. Really not any different from your friends, your family, etc.
This is why uber-godlike Q was so interested in understanding humans in ST:TNG. Where the writers goofed is that they never had Q make the decision to become human (and grow old and die, or die in a gruesome transporter accident).
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That's the whole point of it! Impermanence. Rather than run away from it, embrace it. There's sweetness in knowing that all those records you love won't last. Really not any different from your friends, your family, etc.
The turntable needle will eventually dull. Your vinyl will turn into scratched plates incapable of sonic verisimilitude. Someday, people won't even have ears and every record player will simply stand as a momento mori and grim reminder of a bare life we used to experience that is now forever lost. We're all moving ever so imperceptibly slowly apart; it makes no sense to claw against the casual diffusion - this ineluctable heat death of the universe. Pride yourself on your disease. Life is meaningless. Eat Arbys.
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Ok vinyl gurus, don't mean to hijack this thread but just want to ask a quick question about an issue I've got that's made me stop listening to my TT.
Got a second hand Technics a few years ago, and the stylus was shot so ordered an AT one from Amazon, couple of hundred bucks. Since then I've always had a channel imbalance which I suspect is due to a fault in the stylus itself - I've swapped stylus, swapped LR, swapped preamps, etc. I've tried realigning the stylus to no end with no improvement (as that's what my googling turns up as the main fix to the problem).
Are there any other checks I can do? I'm thinking of doing a resistance check from RCAs to headshell pins (loose internal wiring maybe?). Or should I just bite the bullet and get another stylus, sigh...
Which AT cartridge did you get? AT cartridges are very good, and depending on which are some of the best at managing inner groove distortion so they are quite pliable. I'd guess your problem is elsewhere so stop messing with the stylus or cartridge unless you messed it up during install by bending the cantilever. The only time I had a channel imbalance after changing a cartridge was one of the pins was a little loose connecting to the headshell. Also verify you wired it correctly. The colors on your headshell pins might not be the same as the cartridge. Look at the symbols instead of the colors.
Edit-Ah, read you as ordering a new AT cartridge, not stylus. Yes, you might need a new cartridge. I suspect knocking something loose during install as channel imbalance only happened after you did the install based on what I'm reading.
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The turntable needle will eventually dull. Your vinyl will turn into scratched plates incapable of sonic verisimilitude. Someday, people won't even have ears and every record player will simply stand as a momento mori and grim reminder of a bare life we used to experience that is now forever lost. We're all moving ever so imperceptibly slowly apart; it makes no sense to claw against the casual diffusion - this ineluctable heat death of the universe. Pride yourself on your disease. Life is meaningless. Eat Arbys.
Meh. There will be those cloned and imperishable digital masters from which new Vinyl may resurrect. Think cruciforms in Hyperion. Which is proly bad. But what can you do.
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Ok vinyl gurus, don't mean to hijack this thread but just want to ask a quick question about an issue I've got that's made me stop listening to my TT.
Got a second hand Technics a few years ago, and the stylus was shot so ordered an AT one from Amazon, couple of hundred bucks. Since then I've always had a channel imbalance which I suspect is due to a fault in the stylus itself - I've swapped stylus, swapped LR, swapped preamps, etc. I've tried realigning the stylus to no end with no improvement (as that's what my googling turns up as the main fix to the problem).
Are there any other checks I can do? I'm thinking of doing a resistance check from RCAs to headshell pins (loose internal wiring maybe?). Or should I just bite the bullet and get another stylus, sigh...
Connect one channel of the cartridge out of phase with the other (reverse the + and - on one channel only) and play a mono tesst record. Out of phase information cancels so adjust the azimuth by tuning for least output. Then repeat the process with the other channel out of phase. See if you hear any difference. My guess is either that you've got a wiring issue somewhere, or you just need a new cart.
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Quite apart from the endless-cost possibility, Vinyl breaks my heart. I play a record, with enormous care; put it back in its sleeve, with enormous care; next time I play it, there's another scratch. I can't stand it. I'll stick to digital. Somehow, this doesn't happen to everyone, and if you can keep LPs clean and relatively scratch-free, then I wish you joy.
There is certainly nothing like the tactile, sensuous experience of playing a record.
I'm generally unmoved by the tactile experience of playing my records, and I'm really unmoved by the experience of running my records through my Nitty Gritty - and it's a two sides at once, largely auto cleaner. Full manual cleaning? Fuck that.
I'd sell it all tomorrow if I could replicate the sound via digital, but I can't. Drops get pretty close, and whenever I don't feel like actually playing my records, I'm happy listening to one of my drops. Modern digital production is just almost universally garbage though. I know that probably at least half the new records being released are cut straight from loudness destroyed CD masters anyway depending on genre, but there's still a sizable percentage that aren't, and if you want to listen to them, you've gotta have a TT, at least unless you know the mastering engineer, which in some cases I do.
I really don't find scratches to be a big problem. I've got plenty of 30 and 40 year old records that are holding up just fine, whereas my first CD pressing of "Master of Puppets" lasted maybe 10 years before it became so scratched that "Damage Inc." was totally unplayable.
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I find nothing romantic about the experience of actually using vinyl. It pretty much sucks. Until you finally get to sit down and listen. p:3
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That's the whole point of it! Impermanence. Rather than run away from it, embrace it. There's sweetness in knowing that all those records you love won't last. Really not any different from your friends, your family, etc.
Thank god it is different: I would hate to have a boxful of old friends and deceased family in the attic! :-DD
I have some classical stuff going back to my teens that was played with blunt styli/ceramic cartidge on a mono gramophone. I'd never actually chuck it out. I have some rock going back 40 years, and other stuff bought or re-bought later. It's all accessible with a pair of steps, and the deck (a modest thing) is connected --- but seldom used. I keep meaning to take it for removal of 25 years of cat fur from the mechanics. I will do. One day.
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Ok vinyl gurus, don't mean to hijack this thread but just want to ask a quick question about an issue I've got that's made me stop listening to my TT.
Got a second hand Technics a few years ago, and the stylus was shot so ordered an AT one from Amazon, couple of hundred bucks. Since then I've always had a channel imbalance which I suspect is due to a fault in the stylus itself - I've swapped stylus, swapped LR, swapped preamps, etc. I've tried realigning the stylus to no end with no improvement (as that's what my googling turns up as the main fix to the problem).
Are there any other checks I can do? I'm thinking of doing a resistance check from RCAs to headshell pins (loose internal wiring maybe?). Or should I just bite the bullet and get another stylus, sigh...
My money is on the wiring or more specifically the solder joints between the arm and the RCA's out the back. Replacing is usually not that hard, you maybe even just need a reflow. Depending on the Technics model it may be attached to a PCB. You can look at KAB USA for genuine parts. Best to have a friend or a shop provide a donor technics table to slap your headshell and cart onto to provide a peace of mind about your modern cart. These old tables are old after all.
If it makes you feel any better about the madness of alignment methods, based on what I understand any alignment method has a margin of tracking error and only a single point at which tracking is perfect so no method is ever truly going to be perfect; even if you are not properly aligned to any of the methods.
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Thanks for the tips all - I'll give those recommendations a try. I hope it isn't the cart, really do - cost me 200+ bucks :/
Edit: Anax, I got the AT440MLA cart. And I've never used the TT with any other cart before - threw out the original one when I got the TT, it was messed up.