CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on August 11, 2015, 04:49:53 AM
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HE400S measurements. Will be succinct as usual.
To begin, there's been some buzz on the HE400S:
- http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.msg75567.html#msg75567 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.msg75567.html#msg75567)
- http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.msg69261.html#msg69261 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.msg69261.html#msg69261)
- http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2477.msg69082.html#msg69082 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2477.msg69082.html#msg69082)
I don't normally do unboxing photos, but see attached. This a nice touch from HFM and a huge improvement from the packaging of the prior generation HFM headphones. BTW, the HE400S is light at 12.5 oz.
Before I forget, the HE400S is actually more efficient than the Sennheiser HD650. I didn't need to have the volume knob as high as the HD650 to get the same volume.
Posting measurements in a bit.
UPDATE with tweaks: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2687.msg76945.html#msg76945 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2687.msg76954.html#msg76954)
WITH Vali and Modi 2 amps: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2687.msg77918.html#msg77918
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HE400S frequency response and distortions
Three notable things:
- Gradual bass rolloff. Not a showstopper and not really all that noticeable with most music. The slight mid/high bass bump helps alleviate this. Compared to other headphones with flat bass extension all the way down to 20Hz, the HE400 does sound "less full" in the bass. I wouldn't call the HE400S bass light at all. PADS WITH BETTER SEAL: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2687.msg76945.html#msg76945
- 8kHz peak, but surprisingly not that annoying. Some sibilance, maybe accentuates some grain and adds some harshness. The effects of this peak are less noticeable with resistor ladder/string DACs or vinyl as a source. Tube amps also take a little bit of the edge off. I haven't done CSDs yet, but I don't think we will see significant ringing in the form of long lived ridges at 8kHz. In any event, the good ol' TP mod will do wonders to flatten this peak.
- Very good low distortion characteristics.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10586;image)
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That's pretty much exactly how I heard it.
Bass-light, high mids a bit grainy (distortion spike around 1KHz? FR not smooth?), and treble a bit grating (dat spike at 9KHz!). But overall very even FR and it's actually quite neutral.
Not reference material for bassheads, but can potentially be good with minimal front damping to take care of the 9KHz spike. Or alternatively, I think dark toobs will help.
Resolution and plankton is only average with this one. HD600 still bests it in that department IMO.
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CSDs.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10596;image)
As I surmised, no ringing / ridges at 8kHz. We do see some thin razors or what I've termed "ortho-walls" (http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=1726.0 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=1726.0)) It's generally agreed that these "ortho-walls" are not audible. They exist in most ortho headphones. But overall, really clean past 2kHz.
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Although we are nitpicking and doing quite a bit of critical analysis, For $299, the HE400S is quite an impressive headphone. As you said, quite neutral... but with a few minor warts understandable at its price point. I can see people who had difficulty with the HE-560 (upper mid peaks) having an easier time with this headphone.
Despite the sensitivity (it does work well out of portables), it does like power. Running the HE400S from the Rag and Studio provides a difference experience with more bass heft, slam, and control. Lesser sources result in a softer sound.
Resolution and plankton is only average with this one. HD600 still bests it in that department IMO.
I agree. The HD600/650 from a top shelf tube amp and top shelf DAC is easily more resolving. Also more air and extended up top. However, the bass quality of the HE400S is superior to the HD600/650. HE400 bass is cleaner and less murky. The murky bass has always been a weakness of the HD600/650. Those with less uber amps and DACs would be well or possibly better served by the HE400S, depending upon sonic priorities.
Personally, I do feel that the HE400S does deserve to go on the Leaderboard. It's darn inexpensive, super efficient, and you get pretty ortho sound. I imagine tweaks would do wonders to this headphone.
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I think a modded HD600/650 will still give this good competition. But from a convenience standpoint, I'd agree that this is easily the better value as prices for the HD6xx have been jacked up recently (is it partially your fault? :P)
Resolution and plankton aside, IMO, this is probably the better mid-fi value than HE-560 due to the more neutral sound sig. In fact, I think it may just be the best value mid-fi component for those who don't want to mess around with modding. I quite liked what I heard, even though my amp wasn't a good fit with this one. So yeah, I agree. Leaderboard-worthy indeed.
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Hifiman's yet to make a 400 successor with 400 bass it seems. :(
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Resolution and plankton is only average with this one. HD600 still bests it in that department IMO.
Agreed. That's more or less how I heard it as well. TBH I didn't really get all the pirate love after I heard it at THE.
I'm also curious why they measure so similarly to the HD600 on Tyll's rig. They certainly didn't sound similar to me. Marv's measurements tend to be more indicative of correct tonal balance (yet again).
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The HE400S is only $299. The HE400i is $499. Then, a jump up to $899 for the HE560.
From past descriptions of their sound signatures, the HE400S is better than the HE400i! If the HE400S really compares well with the HE560, then HifiMan will need to fix their product lineup. They have plenty of room to play with since the HE1000 is $2999, then the HE6 at $1299.
Hmm... HE400S vs HE560...
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From past descriptions of their sound signatures, the HE400S is better than the HE400i!
That sounds like quite a leap to me. Has anyone done a head-to-head comparison?
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That sounds like quite a leap to me. Has anyone done a head-to-head comparison?
I still have HE400. HE400 bass is better, more extended down low, a bit more articulate. However, HE400 is really laid back sounding in the upper mids. No snap to snares, no crunch of guitars. HE400 is hotter in the mid-high treble. Finally, HE400 does have more mids distortion - that will annoy certain people. HE400S distortion is actually very very good.
I don't think HE400S competes with HE560. Sure FR is a little bit different (and I can see people preferring the HE400S response) but HE560 is more resolving and faster sounding. The Bill-p and Jerg modded HE560s were pretty fantastic.
P.S. I will try different pads later. I wonder if the bass rolloff is from the velour pads. I will give TP a shot to flatten out the treble. This might end up as something fantastic with tweaks.
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If this is your pair or belongs to someone else willing, any chance we'll get a loaner tour going after you've had your fun with them?
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This is definitely going on the Changstar loaner program.
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The HE400S is only $299. The HE400i is $499. Then, a jump up to $899 for the HE560.
From past descriptions of their sound signatures, the HE400S is better than the HE400i! If the HE400S really compares well with the HE560, then HifiMan will need to fix their product lineup. They have plenty of room to play with since the HE1000 is $2999, then the HE6 at $1299.
Hmm... HE400S vs HE560...
Funny how that's normal for audio manufacturers. HD700, PS1000, K812, etc.
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For the price, this has me interested. Before I do anything though, what is the considered opinion in CS on QC variances in HFM phones in general? Specifically, have you come across the large variation a la Audez'e HPs in HFM ? I seem to remember some variation in the HE1K.
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Thanks Marv for getting these measured! :)p1
Technically only supposed to have these out for a month, but these can definitely go out on a loaner program.
For the price I think it's a good entry level ortho. Kinda wish Fang would start playing around with closed back designs. If you're a fan of dynamic drivers, this probably won't sway you.
No true HE400 replacement as of yet. I think he plays around with certain designs and won't reproduce anything similar after it's first iteration. :(
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Before I do anything though, what is the considered opinion in CS on QC variances in HFM phones in general?
The two HE1Ks I heard at the Boulder meet had some noticeable sonic differences. Can't remember if one was a pre-production/beta pair and the other wasn't, which would account for it if so. Not that they were huge differences anyway. Clearly the same model headphone, but one was a bit warmer and smoother up top but had less slam than the other. I've heard a bit of variance with the three 560s I've tried, but all of them sounded painful to my ears to varying degrees (the worst being "rip it off now" painful and the best being "weird and annoying"). Though, I know thegunner got a replacement pair that he said was considerably less bright than the original pair he loaned me. Might have been a silent revision pair?
Can't say how their variance compares to Audeze or OPPO, but it's there to at least some degree from my experience.
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If you're a fan of dynamic drivers, this probably won't sway you.
Translation: STFU OJ. We know you won't like it because it's not a Sennheiser.
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On another note, I tried the HE560 pads. Look ma! Some bass:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10600;image)
It appears the bass roll-off is a result of both the leaky pads and a driver characteristic. I haven't listened to it like this yet, but I will post my impressions soon. Picture of stock HE400S pad attached (overexposed to show permeability of the pads - and also some dust and cat hair on it).
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Thanks Merv for the measurements! This corresponds pretty much to what I've heard. The 8K peak is not annoying at all to me. I agree that 400S is not on the same level of 560.
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Now imagine what pleather pads would do :U
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Now imagine what pleather pads would do :U
Obviously not a cost effective solution if we go out and buy HE560 pads. A cheap solution: wrap outside of pads with electrical tape (a la Grado pad tape mods).
BTW, I've been listening to the HE400S with the HE560 pads and two layers of Kirkland TP from Modi/Magni2. This is really fantastic. If I had any lingering doubts this headphone would be Leaderboard material, they are totally gone now. I actually want to keep these headphones now.
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I still have HE400. HE400 bass is better, more extended down low, a bit more articulate. However, HE400 is really laid back sounding in the upper mids. No snap to snares, no crunch of guitars. HE400 is hotter in the mid-high treble. Finally, HE400 does have more mids distortion - that will annoy certain people. HE400S distortion is actually very very good.
I don't think HE400S competes with HE560. Sure FR is a little bit different (and I can see people preferring the HE400S response) but HE560 is more resolving and faster sounding. The Bill-p and Jerg modded HE560s were pretty fantastic.
P.S. I will try different pads later. I wonder if the bass rolloff is from the velour pads. I will give TP a shot to flatten out the treble. This might end up as something fantastic with tweaks.
Marv, are you talking about the 400i here? That's the comparison we were discussing.
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Marv, are you talking about the 400i here? That's the comparison we were discussing.
Comparison to HE400 (not i).
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zzz...That naming convention can get annoying.
HE400 - old model
HE400i - "updated" old model
HE400S - new model with updated connectors.
New connectors will eventually be transferred to older models as well.
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It appears the bass roll-off is a result of both the leaky pads and a driver characteristic. I haven't listened to it like this yet, but I will post my impressions soon. Picture of stock HE400S pad attached (overexposed to show permeability of the pads - and also some dust and cat hair on it).
Thanks for posting your thoughts on the "HE400s versus" and the testing, too!
I never realized just much pads affect the sound of an open headphone. Closed headphones, that makes sense. Just never thought with so much "air" already in open headphones.
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Planars are actually mostly "closed" designs. In other words, better to think of monopole or dipole radiation patterns and if they mix together at the ear instead of open or closed. Some closed cup headphones are actually sorta of dipole (AT woodys with the vents in the front).
For HE400S, the soundwaves from the back of the driver don't mix much with the soundwaves from the front - with the better sealing pads, they effectively don't mix at all.
There was a graphic I posted on this on HF. Brownie points to whoever can find that pic.
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There was a graphic I posted on this on HF. Brownie points to whoever can find that pic.
I remember that. It was last year during #padgate. It's still in your profile photos (http://www.head-fi.org/g/a/899267/oppo-pm-1-a-new-planar-magnetic-headphone/ (http://www.head-fi.org/g/a/899267/oppo-pm-1-a-new-planar-magnetic-headphone/)), but why on Earth did they delete it from the PM1 thread?!
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Marv, do you think the memory foam HM5 pads would fit?, they have plenty of options and I have had good results with the velours.
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Marv, do you think the memory foam HM5 pads would fit?, they have plenty of options and I have had good results with the velours.
HM5 Pleathers and Velours fit. Just takes a little bit of stretching.
I have the angled pleathers on my Code-X.
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[/quote]
For the price, this has me interested. Before I do anything though, what is the considered opinion in CS on QC variances in HFM phones in general? Specifically, have you come across the large variation a la Audez'e HPs in HFM ? I seem to remember some variation in the HE1K.
I've compared my pair to store demo in Melbourne. At first 2 weeks, yes, there're minor differences. On week 3, I can't hear the differences. It was confirmed by store attendance as well. It seem they are a bit effected by burn-in
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This headphone is tempting, but bass roll off like that on a planar is kind of, well quite heavily unexpected actually. First time any of Fang's headphones have done that. Seems like the HE-400S has some unique tech (or lack thereof?) in it relative to the rest of their line. Nonetheless, distortion and impulse response performance like this at $300 is quite impressive. I'd like to try these.
This is definitely going on the Changstar loaner program.
o hey.
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hello,
it appears we have an entry level planer for the win in mid-fi land er...purgatory!
really hope to be part of the tour. :money:
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A comparison with HE400i would be great since its closer in price than 560
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A comparison with HE400i would be great since its closer in price than 560
I would suggest forget about 400i and go for either 400S or 560. 400S has far better price/performance ratio while 560 has far better technicality. Price ain't an indicator of nothing.
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I would suggest forget about 400i and go for either 400S or 560. 400S has far better price/performance ratio while 560 has far better technicality. Price ain't an indicator of nothing.
Thank you Griffon!
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I don't think HE400S competes with HE560. Sure FR is a little bit different (and I can see people preferring the HE400S response) but HE560 is more resolving and faster sounding. The Bill-p and Jerg modded HE560s were pretty fantastic
Slightly of topic but how would you compare a properly driven hd6X0 to the modded he560? Reports of the the jerg560 sounding like a baby code-x with most of the detail of a hd800 got me curious but at $800 its only $100 away from a used hd800.
I like the paradox sound including the subbass but lack of dynamics and my new found mission to get a tube amp for tube clarity and tube bloom have got me questioning gettinng another ortho
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Slightly of topic but how would you compare a properly driven hd6X0 to the modded he560? Reports of the the jerg560 sounding like a baby code-x with most of the detail of a hd800 got me curious but at $800 its only $100 away from a used hd800.
I like the paradox sound including the subbass but lack of dynamics and my new found mission to get a tube amp for tube clarity and tube bloom have got me questioning gettinng another ortho
HE560 is more resolving than Paradox, but still suffers from lack of dynamics, like all other planars, which do tend to sound more compressed compared to the great dynamics: HD6x0/HD800.
The HD6x0 is a bit more resolving than the HE560, but you need good enough DAC/amp to take advantage of that. Where HD6x0 is most lacking is in bass clarity and low bass extension.
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Slightly of topic but how would you compare a properly driven hd6X0 to the modded he560? Reports of the the jerg560 sounding like a baby code-x with most of the detail of a hd800 got me curious but at $800 its only $100 away from a used hd800.
I like the paradox sound including the subbass but lack of dynamics and my new found mission to get a tube amp for tube clarity and tube bloom have got me questioning gettinng another ortho
I wouldn't say the HE560s could do most of the detail of HD800, it does well enough in other regards, but HD800's resolution (especially in the treble) is pretty legendary. Whatever I have tried doing with HE560s are to improve the acoustic enclosure. Ultimately HE560's SQ is limited by its drivers, which I feel are great, but not quite HD800-level of refinedness.
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HE6 driver is clearly superior to 560 in resolution and it's still waaay behind the HD800. The idea of the 560 being close is from people who haven't heard and HD800 properly. Their gear is probably mediocre. Yes, I know that's a typical line that gets eyes rolling. Unfortunately it's usually true wrt HD800 impressions.
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HE6 driver is clearly superior to 560 in resolution and it's still waaay behind the HD800. The idea of the 560 being close is from people who haven't heard and HD800 properly. Their gear is probably mediocre. Yes, I know that's a typical line that gets eyes rolling. Unfortunately it's usually true wrt HD800 impressions.
What are your thoughts on HE1K's resolving power vs HD800? I felt when I did some comparisons that HD800 still had a tad more treble detail, but midrange/bass the two are quite neck-to-neck.
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so if I have a super simple setup (the amp is a Fiio E11K and I don't plan to upgrade it ATM), and I'm interested in the sound of the HE400S and the HD650, the HE400S is the way to go, right?
BTW, maybe Brainwavz Hybrid pads could be a cheaper alternative to the HE560 pads?
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What are your thoughts on HE1K's resolving power vs HD800? I felt when I did some comparisons that HD800 still had a tad more treble detail, but midrange/bass the two are quite neck-to-neck.
FWIW, not that I'm crazy about the HD800 (through, from that Uber7...was something else), but the HE1K didn't really impress me all that much with resolution relative to the HD800 when I tried it at the Boulder meet. Both seem to have a sort of rough or etched character due to some odd treble spike(s), but the HE1K just didn't sound as refined or technical to me. It did have good bass and mids, though. Someone like Anax or Merv could answer better, though.
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What are your thoughts on HE1K's resolving power vs HD800? I felt when I did some comparisons that HD800 still had a tad more treble detail, but midrange/bass the two are quite neck-to-neck.
Gets closer, but not quite. Honestly about equal to HD6x0 (which is turn is slightly less resolving than HD800) if we isolate the bass distortion from ability to reproduce low level information. (IMO, distortion doesn't necessarily mask low level information). Not a bad reflection of the HEK as it is a more a testament to how well the HD6x0s scale.
This is on TOTL type setups. Differences will be less noticeable on mid-fi or lesser amps and DACs.
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so if I have a super simple setup (the amp is a Fiio E11K and I don't plan to upgrade it ATM), and I'm interested in the sound of the HE400S and the HD650, the HE400S is the way to go, right?
BTW, maybe Brainwavz Hybrid pads could be a cheaper alternative to the HE560 pads?
Yup. HE400S is the way to go for more modest setups.
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HE6 driver is clearly superior to 560 in resolution and it's still waaay behind the HD800. The idea of the 560 being close is from people who haven't heard and HD800 properly. Their gear is probably mediocre. Yes, I know that's a typical line that gets eyes rolling. Unfortunately it's usually true wrt HD800 impressions.
Mediocre gear is rampant on head-fi if you can't make it sound good with a fiio stack its shit
That being said I'm starting to feel that for me the hd800 is too resolving. the Yggy/Rag combo + anax 3.0 was excellent but hearing how distinctly the cash register was not part of the song (Money-Pink Floyd) wasn't my idea of musical. The more I think about it on a day to day basis I'd run into this problem more often than less.
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Mediocre gear is rampant on head-fi if you can't make it sound good with a fiio stack its shit
That being said I'm starting to feel that for me the hd800 is too resolving. the Yggy/Rag combo + anax 3.0 was excellent but hearing how distinctly the cash register was not part of the song (Money-Pink Floyd) wasn't my idea of musical. The more I think about it on a day to day basis I'd run into this problem more often than less.
Yes, that's correct. That actually points to the discrepancy of the master using the cash machine and blending it into the music. you are actually noticing what's actually on the recorded master as they did it. That may not be musical to most, but it's the truth. You can hear the same incoherence on the simulated didgeridoo-esque intro from the start of Aerosmith's 'Sweet Emotion' using the HD800 too. Clearly a separately mastered track spliced in by the audio engineer without proper blending.
To me, I think it's cool hearing what happened from the mastering side. Does that distract you from the music? Yes. Is it the phone's fault? No, shitty mastering.
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Agreed that's why I'm doubting that there's a hd800 in my future , to many less than ideal recordings in my collection. With the hd800 I'd be listening to the master not the music
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What a good value amp to go with this cans? How is Val2 with this
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What a good value amp to go with this cans? How is Val2 with this
Magni 2 or Magni 2 Uber for sure. Let me try out Vali.
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Magni 2 or Magni 2 Uber for sure. Let me try out Vali.
Thanks marvey, how about Valhalla2? If its a good match then I can add hd650 in the future without the need to buy additional amp with it.
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Magni 2 or Magni 2 Uber for sure. Let me try out Vali.
Yah since nabbing 400S for a work office, been contemplating a Vali as well. Or magni2uber.
Any brief comparison appreciated.
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My concern with Vali is its slightly higher output impedance, which could be an issue with orthos (softer sound). I suspect it wouldn't be an issue since the HE400S is so darn efficient. Ultimately, it's more a matter of delivered power (of which output impedance does have a lot to do with). But in the end efficiency matters more. Higher efficiency is essentially free power. A lot of free power - given that you need x10 more power to get x2 volume.
The HE400S measure a flat ~22 ohms impedance. The output impedance of the Vali is 6.5 ohms. The damping factor is 3.3. Good enough. Coming from the tube world, we like to see ~3.0. I know some folks like to see 5. Others like to see 40,000. Take guidelines with a grain of salt. Bottom line is that it's worth it to give the Vali a shot.
I happen to have Vali and Magni 2 on my desk. The DAC used is a Modi 2 since I figured it would be kind of lame if I threw a Yggy in the mix. I figure you guys would be interested in much better amps and headphones if Yggy was already your DAC.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10633;image)
So what's the verdict? Hard to say. This is a classic tube(hybrid) vs. solid-state argument. Bass quality on the Magni 2 is better. Lower extension, better sustain, more precision. The Vali's bass doesn't extend as low. It's more murky. Less clear. But not annoying so where I want to say "yuck". Vali does the job on the bass OK and Magni 2 while better, still doesn't win awards for being able to reproduce the most accurate Moffat Bass (i.e., clean precise well articulated low bass with impact.)
It wouldn't necessarily say Vali is more resolving with this setup either (a better DAC may change things, but this is out of the scope of this comparison - we are talking budget everything here). However, there's a really nice bloom and engaging quality in the mids. Call it the Donald North Audio effect - something about soapy suds and Sofia Vergara rubbing her boobies on you.
I'd have to give the Vali a slight nod, despite inferior bass quality. Both amps are more tonally similar than not (after the Vali warms up). If you listen to a lot of techno or electronic with low bass start-stop stuff, the Magni 2 might the better choice.
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Captain,
As usual, you have over delivered a comparison with worthy details and info.
Still not sure which once I will buy tho, ha!
Until then it's GOV2+Infinity and 400S in the near term.
More on that combo after a few more days.
Cheers Marv!
:money:
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I should try the Vali with high efficiency planars...should be interesting. What I know is that I do not care for the Vali with less efficient planars, like the HE-500 or modded T50RPs. Makes them sound thin and weird. Now, with dynamics, the Vali is quite nice.
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Call it the Donald North Audio effect - something about soapy suds and Sofia Vergara rubbing her boobies on you.
...thats the most interesting way I ever heard someone describe the DNA sound.
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I should try the Vali with high efficiency planars...should be interesting. What I know is that I do not care for the Vali with less efficient planars, like the HE-500 or modded T50RPs. Makes them sound thin and weird. Now, with dynamics, the Vali is quite nice.
I actually think the Vali plays well with the HE-500s.
Not as well as something like the Lyr 2 or Project Ember, but it more than holds its own in the budget category.
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yah for the months I had the pair, Vali + HE-500 was ok. far from bad.
but also a no contest when moving up to Lyr2 with HE-500, and now HE-560s.
for HE-400S second office set up-
decided to "splurge" on a Asgard2 instead of magni2uber or vali.
belay that order. cancelled my A2 plans with 400S.
decided to sell my Lyr2 and some Telefunken tubes. move to Mjol2 with HE-560s.
400S will continue to live off GOV2+Infinity.
headbang
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The HE-400S is god-damn amazing for the price, a really coherent sound from top to bottom with nice tactility and a well-balanced & open mid-range, no treble harshness. I preferred the HE-400S fed from the HM901s and EF-2 combo over the HE-1000 fed from the HM901s/EF-6 combo easily, as the HE-1000 had a distant sounding mid-range with a cavernous, uninvolving sound. Buying anything between the flagships fed by top-end components and the HE-400S or HD6xx is a colossal waste of time and money IMO.
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heard the 400S recently - absolutely love them for the price.
setup was not even the best, but I can highly recommend these.
great balance, nicely detailed and good texture throughout the entire FR- or however you'd like to call it.
not oversmoothed, just nicely balanced.
I'd have a hard time choosing between these and HD600 to be honest. I like the bass on these more.
very comfy, has velour pads that I like. didn't try for more than 40 minutes or so but they seem to be on par with the 560's which is what I run at home.
can't comment much on scalability, I heard with JDSLabs gear... :p not ideal I'd guess, but still really likey.
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Tried this today. Major bass bleed into the lower mids; the separation and levels of bass and guitars were strange. The peaky treble made sparkly cymbals too sibilant and actually harsh ones painful. Something was up with the upper mids too and it didn't seem very sturdy. Not worth 300$ when compared to the HD 600/650.
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Tried this today. Major bass bleed into the lower mids; the separation and levels of bass and guitars were strange. The peaky treble made sparkly cymbals too sibilant and actually harsh ones painful. Something was up with the upper mids too and it didn't seem very sturdy. Not worth 300$ when compared to the HD 600/650.
What amp was this with?
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What amp was this with?
The O2+ODAC combo with FLACs of some rock and metal tracks (no brickwalled remasters!) that warm setups can screw up. The bass bleed was much worse than the expected cymbal sibilance. It might sound better with different genres of music that I don't listen to often. Some problematic recordings:
Dismember's "Override the Overture" which opens with lead guitar, the bass guitar comes in to reinforcing the leads, then the ridiculous distorted rhythm guitars appear, and finally the bass switches over to reinforcing the rhythm guitar to provide a wallop to the face. This sounded off on the 400s.
Iron Maiden's "Aces High". The bass being atypically high in the mix will overwhelm the leads on bloomy setups with bass bleed. That's exactly what happened with the 400s.
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How do the 400S scale with better amps?
Despite its high efficiency, would feeding it with more power--better power--make them blossom?
I'm also wondering if putting some resistors in the cables (a la ER4P to a ER4S adapter) would yield a better sound.
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Some brief impressions and measurements of the HE-400S.
I didn't noticed the brightness that assaulted me before when I heard this at T.H.E. Show. Somehow I feel this pair is somewhat better behaved in the mids and treble than what I think I heard before. However, this particular set seemed to lack bass. This is not something I got from the measurements, or something I read. This I jotted down before making measurements. However, the measurements indicate more bass roll off than what I think I heard. The pads I used were the velour/slanted ones. Do I think these sound like the HD600? Not exactly.
Given the differences of what I heard with this pair and what I heard at T.H.E. Show I don't discard the possibility of different tuning, just as I don't discard the possibility that the songs I heard at T.H.E. Show were too bright. Currently, I was able to directly compare my HD600s with this HE400S set.
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10903;image)
Distortion Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10905;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10907;image)
CSD Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10909;image)
CSD Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10911;image)
vs. HD600
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10913;image)
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Some brief impressions and measurements of the HE-400S.
I didn't noticed the brightness that assaulted me before when I heard this at T.H.E. Show. Somehow I feel this pair is somewhat better behaved in the mids and treble than what I think I heard before.
I told you and OJ it was the amp. Marv didn't believe me either till I broke out the Leckerton and made him listen. I didn't believe it till Tyll made me have a second listen cuz I gave up on them myself.
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All I can say is that at T.H.E. Show and to my ears this was something else. If HiFiMan didn't play with the tuning, and the songs were alright, I dunno what else to blame but the amp either.
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The FR of that bass and lower mid hump matches up to the bass bleed into the lower mids in the pair I heard at the Capital Audio Fest. Much warmer and bloomier than the current HD 6XX. At least as bad for guitar and bass as the launch black driver 650s but I didn't think to directly compare those two.
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I don't think I heard bass bleed with this one. Perhaps it was the amp?
On that note, this thing is very surprisingly amp-dependent when I tried it. Now that I think about it, the brightness I heard may have been caused by the amp, and not the headphone. This thing should sound neutral, and it somewhat seems to be that, save for bass roll-off. I think bass on my HD600 was fuller, but that could have been my imagination.
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I think bass on my HD600 was fuller, but that could have been my imagination.
If it was your imagination, you and I imagined the same thing. To me the HD600 has much more bass presence than the particular HE400S I heard. Other stuff is not bad.
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Did I include the Focus pads in the box? Try those. Bass extension should be much better.
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Yes. Will do those next.
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I never said it was bright. I thought it was very mediocre. And I still don't get the HD600 comparisons
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I never said it was bright. I thought it was very mediocre.
Nobody said that you found them bright OJ. That's just how I felt about them when I listened to them at T.H.E. Show.
And I still don't get the HD600 comparisons
Because Tyll felt they were somewhat similar in his Aug 2015 Update:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/innerfidelity-august-2015-update#SbSTQ18FdQVv2rRP.97
Possible he got a better pair. Possible my rig is shit along with my ears. Who knows. But that's why I brought that up.
Personally I think these cans might do better in a sealed configuration. Here are some measurements with the alternative pads and measured as closed cans:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2687.0;attach=10915;image)
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Mike's statement implies it, but I'm sure it's just a mixup
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Mike's statement implies it, but I'm sure it's just a mixup
Not necessarily. It only implies you thought they sucked because you only tried them with the answering machine amp.
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So, how does it compare with hd600?
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I prefer the HD600. Better bass presence. A little smoother as well.
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I heard it at the show I liked it.
Didn't hear any tremble spike but the mids were kind of vailed, though I think it's my source that was responsible for the Vail.
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So, how does it compare with hd600?
HDs will keep scaling, these are pretty much what you hear is what you get.
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HDs will keep scaling, these are pretty much what you hear is what you get.
As in no placebo? :D
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As in no placebo? :D
You need to pay much more for placebo. ;)
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Frequency Response
Ew, that looks like the TH500RP, only worse.
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Ew, that looks like the TH500RP, only worse.
No, not really remotely comparable in sound at all. This is one of the better bang per buck phones ever made, TH500RP is a disgusting abomination to the senses.
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So, how does it compare with hd600?
The HD 6XX sound better and scale up better with better gear and recordings. They're just better. This is a hundred bucks cheaper and messes with bass and guitar levels in the upper bass and lower mids due to excessive warmth but it is a hundred bucks cheaper. I was willing to fork over some more bills as that's unacceptable for metal. You might be willing to put up with it though. Your call.
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The HE400S (with better sealing pads) is superior to the HD6x0 in terms of bass articulation. Worthy consideration if you will be using modest gear, or even you plan on getting more powerful solid-state amps. Otherwise, if you plan on better amps or DACs, HD6x0 may be the better choice. I can see some people preferring the overall ortho presentation and/or the more laid back upper mids of the HE400S.
When using the GOv2-> Magni 2, I honestly could have gone either way. On vinyl/Yggy->EC amps, HD650 all the way.
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Tried them briefly today out of the GO450 -> Leckerton. These are not bad, especially for just $300! I like that they're really lightweight and comfortable to wear. They have a fairly neutral sound but perhaps slightly lacking in bass quantity. I think that they were a bit more open sounding than the he-400i due to the lower bass presence, and I think that area can be improved upon even further with the grill mod. I didn't really notice anything problematic with the HE-400s out of my portable setup. So yep, pretty good entry level ortho!
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I received a used pair yesterday after my curiosity got the better of me. I'm definitely a fan of the fast ortho sound and I'm also a little addicted to Hifiman, so take that for what it's worth.
I gotta say, these are incredible. With stock pads, the bass is not as bad as I would have guessed based on impressions. No oomph down way low but bass kicks have plenty of body. I put on the Hifiman pleather pads and almost immediately removed them for the wonky/hollow sound (as a side note, I still don't understand this. it seems every Hifiman headphone plays differently with the pleather pads. it makes some cans sound terrible and others decent, whatever). I then switched to the Focus Pads and found a very enjoyable listen. The Focus Pads give them more bass presence than the HE-4 or HE-6. No joke. Not in a bloated way either. The mids are right where I like them, maybe slightly shadowed by the bass, but the treble is spot on. My sibilance tracks were barely sibilant, which I can't say for the HE-4 and HE-6. This is the most fun I've had listening to drums anywhere around this price point ($225 used). Very very engaging. Very very comfortable. Very very efficient (happily jamming out of my phone and iPod). The HE-4 and HE-6 have the edge in terms of staging, separation, and resolution, but it's hardly a landslide. Really.
The HD600 vs. HE-400S comparison is more justified than I would have guessed. The warmth in their signatures is very similar. And the pricepoint is very similar. The HE-400S is not as balanced in the midrange, creating a slightly unnatural timbre compared to the HD600. The HD600 also has better treble extension and presence (coming from someone who doesn't mind the upper mid/lower treble on the HD600). Staging/space is better on the HE-400S though. The 400S also has better bass texture and speed but I think I'd prefer the HD600 bass for a more relaxing/musical listen. But, overall, the HD600 simply sounds better with upstream gear. Out of my iPod, the 400S is probably the best headphone I've heard. From Valhalla2, the HD600 has much better resolution/detail and the HD600, in general, has a better tonal balance.
Compared to the Oppo PM-2 I found the 400S to be miles and miles and miles and miles ahead. At half the price. WTF. The PM-2 is probably the most comfortable way to put me to sleep.