CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Speakers => Topic started by: cspirou on September 15, 2015, 01:27:15 PM
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While reading the latest post on Big Sound 2015 over at innerfidelity, Tyll said something interesting. He mention that he and Bob Katz both believe that the very best headphones still come short against state of the art studio monitors. Which got me thinking about what speakers would be considered to be a better experience then certain headphones.
So what would you consider to be a desktop experience that surpasses an HD650 with proper amplification? Would I have to spend a fortune or could I get something good for under $1000?
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At the $300 (HD650) price point I don't think you will find a pair of speakers that will compete with a really well driven HD650.
I don't know about $1000 but at $3000 my studio monitors in a tiny untreated room (aka: crippled) are still better then all my headphones (incl HD650) at everything: imaging/soundstage, tonality, impact. The only thing the headphones consistently do better is ultimate detail retrieval due to the sealed environment/lower noise floor. Once I get some GIK in here the difference is only going to get larger.
That's not to say I don't greatly enjoy the headphone experience BTW.
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Some standing waves are seriously annoying for me with speakers in some rooms,
but on average speakers win it for me.
Both in their respective price ranges are roughly comparable, in my exp.
For 1000$ lower end Adams or HD650 + good amp are roughly leveled. I'd slighlty lean towards Hd650 + amp here myself.
For 3-4k$ one gets to pick among true reference studio monitors, though not truly full range and equally top notch headphones. Here my pick would be speakers.
This is as far as I have gone. Maybe for 10k there are some other relations bw phones vs speakers.
As with everything utter carbage can be had with whatever money you'r willing to spend.
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Truth.
It is through hearing more than a few speakers, I ended up with studio monitors. I use at home the PMC IB2i, which are passive studio monitors, and when I said exactly the same thing time ago on HF, some did not take it well. But that's OK because it takes hearing some of this stuff. Ideally with sufficient exposure. The good news is that in the headphone realm lies a lot of untapped potential. The pricing however is going the wrong way for the performance offered and this cannot be said often enough imo. With speakers it went the wrong way a long time ago. But there are some great speakers even from a decade or two ago that will challenge the best of today.
Some people even think the stock HD800s are good as reference headphones. It's great that they can be modded though. It's also interesting how the HEK seem to introduce a fail factor in AB testing. I told you guys those are not very good for flagship level performance. But I get it they are nice / relaxing / etc to hear.
It's a shame the HE-6s weren't there. Those too can be modded with some pretty damn great results. Some of those amps could even drive them. Well almost.
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Speakers sometimes have the sweet spot issue. Headphones are on or around your ears. It is a matter of what works best for your given situation.
Where I live good monitors are not an option with regards to noise complaints. In a well prepared space I take speakers every time.
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At the $300 (HD650) price point I don't think you will find a pair of speakers that will compete with a really well driven HD650.
I don't know about $1000 but at $3000 my studio monitors in a tiny untreated room (aka: crippled) are still better then all my headphones (incl HD650) at everything: imaging/soundstage, tonality, impact. The only thing the headphones consistently do better is ultimate detail retrieval due to the sealed environment/lower noise floor. Once I get some GIK in here the difference is only going to get larger.
That's not to say I don't greatly enjoy the headphone experience BTW.
Woah woah, what? $300 for the HD650? I think you're being a bit optimistic, the HD650 is $500. $300 is a rare sale price. It usually goes for $4-450 on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00018MSNI/
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While reading the latest post on Big Sound 2015 over at innerfidelity, Tyll said something interesting. He mention that he and Bob Katz both believe that the very best headphones still come short against state of the art studio monitors. Which got me thinking about what speakers would be considered to be a better experience then certain headphones.
So what would you consider to be a desktop experience that surpasses an HD650 with proper amplification? Would I have to spend a fortune or could I get something good for under $1000?
This is my experience:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1908.msg81617.html#msg81617
I can say I've been to every "The Show" the last three years and the number of speaker rigs I'd take over my personal headphone rig I could count with one hand and maybe an extra finger or two.
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While reading the latest post on Big Sound 2015 over at innerfidelity, Tyll said something interesting. He mention that he and Bob Katz both believe that the very best headphones still come short against state of the art studio monitors. Which got me thinking about what speakers would be considered to be a better experience then certain headphones.
So what would you consider to be a desktop experience that surpasses an HD650 with proper amplification? Would I have to spend a fortune or could I get something good for under $1000?
I don't put much weight into statements like the above. Buying some fancy studio monitors is just the first step into a different world of audio; unless the studio monitors have massive woofers, IE not desktop sized then the bass impact may not be for you then requiring a sub. Powered monitors can often have a terrible noise floor and having internal amps it is also not uncommon to overheat and die after some years. Going separates can add up fast depending on your goal. Then you have to deal with spacing from the wall, angle, and possibly room treatments and decoupling. It adds up fast and in my experience the resell on speakers is not as good as headphone gear and it all makes it a tougher pill to swallow. I'm not even sure if a $1k budget would cover my needs and I try to keep things affordable.
I have a nearfield setup myself that I happen to like but am not necessarily enamored with. There's just a great deal more control and IMO less variables with headphone rigs. If you do want to go this route I suggest looking to well taken care of vintage gear on the cheap or super popular makes/models to minimize any risk going in.
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While reading the latest post on Big Sound 2015 over at innerfidelity, Tyll said something interesting. He mention that he and Bob Katz both believe that the very best headphones still come short against state of the art studio monitors. Which got me thinking about what speakers would be considered to be a better experience then certain headphones.
So what would you consider to be a desktop experience that surpasses an HD650 with proper amplification? Would I have to spend a fortune or could I get something good for under $1000?
Different priorities for different folks, I'd say.
Speakers in general do soundstage and low frequencies better than headphones IMO. Sometimes if you're lucky, you can get some vintage speakers and receivers for a couple hundreds, and that setup will blow any headphone out of the water if it comes to bass and soundstage.
However, detail extraction, treble quality, imaging, clarity, etc... are all superior on some headphones. Even "clarity" of lower frequencies, whatever that actually means. Speakers up to thousands of dollars may not be able to catch up in that sense, even when the room is treated. There's a reason recording studios still have headphones around the mixing room even though they have monitors lying around.
That's all from my experience, of course. It may just be that I just have to hear the right speaker setup.
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I don't put much weight into statements like the above. Buying some fancy studio monitors is just the first step into a different world of audio; unless the studio monitors have massive woofers, IE not desktop sized then the bass impact may not be for you. Powered monitors can often have a terrible noise floor and having internal amps it is also not uncommon to overheat and die after some years. Going separates is great fun but can add up fast depending on your goal. Then you have to deal with spacing from the wall, angle, and possibly room treatments and decoupling. It adds up fast and in my experience the resell on speakers is not as good as headphone gear and it all makes it a tougher pill to swallow. I'm not even sure if a $1k budget would cover my needs and I try to keep things affordable.
Exactly. Small studio monitors have a more reduced scope of what they can offer, due to inherent size limitations. Now mid-field monitors and far-field monitors, with sufficient investment around them are quite something else. It's not only about bass resolution and impact, it's a whole other level of reference performance. The downside: cost & space requirements. :) The only way to cheat at this game is to buy on the used market. The top full-range studio monitors are rare as hen's teeth on the used market over here (especially the passive ones as if they are old we wouldn't want actives). For good reasons.
Well seasoned passive ATC 50s and 100s are a good place to look at. Also any of the old PMCs, 3 ways. Needs to have the big mid dome preferrably. They will not be very cheap unless they are very old.
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It's context of the statement and priorities of the listener.
Headphones don't come close in terms of frequency response, imparting a physical tactile feel in the bass, or projecting a real stage like speakers. In terms of resolution, the best speakers resolve at HD600/650 level on a good day and with some luck. The relatively low power requirements of headphone amps = less amplification stages = helps transparency. So does the smaller and more efficient crossover-less drivers of headphones.
So what would you consider to be a desktop experience that surpasses an HD650 with proper amplification? Would I have to spend a fortune or could I get something good for under $1000?
Which should I get, a motorcycle or a car?
It comes down to what you want. You can spend a lot on a motorcycle or a very little on a car. In the end, they are very different and not comparable.
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It's context of the statement and priorities of the listener.
Headphones don't come close in terms of frequency response, imparting a physical tactile feel in the bass, or projecting a real stage like speakers. In terms of resolution, the best speakers resolve at HD600/650 level on a good day and with some luck. The relatively low power requirements of headphone amps = less amplification stages = helps transparency. So does the smaller and more efficient crossover-less drivers of headphones.
Which should I get, a motorcycle or a car?
It comes down to what you want.
I'm sure Satan would propose a third option: Get both. A secure way towards financial ruin.
Speakers are never viable for a proper experience: at night, with small children, with neighboors, family that doesn't particularly cater for ones musical preferences. Etc Etc
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I'm sure Satan would propose a third option: Get both. A secure way towards financial ruin.
Speakers are never viable for a proper experience: at night, with small children, with neighboors, family that doesn't particularly cater for ones musical preferences. Etc Etc
You are thinking too small:
http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/soundproofing101/room-within-a-room/
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Can't agree more with what Marvey wrote above including the Car vs Motorcycle analogy. I'm a HD800 nut and the last thing I'd want would a pair of speaker that sounds like a fucking HD800.
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Knerian had to mention it. I did not even want to start the talk on sound proofed rooms and all that it entails. Add that as another fix towards financial ruin, if there was a need for one more.
Few realise that well sound proofed rooms become particularly well weather proofed too. Get a couple of nice class A amps in there and you've got another problem to resolve. Time to start thinking about nice ventilation solutions at the same time OCDing about levels of noise. Sounds like fun.
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Have you guys ever been in an anechoic chamber? It's trippy... lay down and don't move a muscle, eventually your breathing becomes unbearably loud, and so you slow it down and control it. If you can relax further and your ears haven't been exposed to loud noises during the day, after that you start to hear your own pulse, or at least you think you do, or some combination of feeling/hearing. Your ear/brain just isn't used to processing such low levels.
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Have you guys ever been in an anechoic chamber? It's trippy... lay down and don't move a muscle, eventually your breathing becomes unbearably loud, and so you slow it down and control it. If you can relax further and your ears haven't been exposed to loud noises during the day, after that you start to hear your own pulse, or at least you think you do, or some combination of feeling/hearing. Your ear/brain just isn't used to processing such low levels.
(http://i.imgur.com/R2hGt32.jpg)
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Woah woah, what? $300 for the HD650? I think you're being a bit optimistic, the HD650 is $500. $300 is a rare sale price. It usually goes for $4-450 on amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00018MSNI/
Fair point. Normal HD650 price is $4-450 but (in North America) you can get them new for $300 or $350 a few times a year via buysonic. (and probably others)
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Knerian had to mention it. I did not even want to start the talk on sound proofed rooms and all that it entails. Add that as another fix towards financial ruin, if there was a need for one more.
Few realise that well sound proofed rooms become particularly well weather proofed too. Get a couple of nice class A amps in there and you've got another problem to resolve. Time to start thinking about nice ventilation solutions at the same time OCDing about levels of noise. Sounds like fun.
That's why if I had to get an active speaker I would make the Linkwitz LXMini or LX521. They are open baffle speakers that are made to sound good in normal living spaces.
My ultimate cost no object speaker would probably be the Kii Audio active speaker which is also suppose minimize the effect the room has on the sound.
http://kiiaudio.com/en/tech-acou.html
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I'm really intrigued by the CBT36 speaker kit. If I had the time it'd be a project I'd like to try.
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(http://i.imgur.com/R2hGt32.jpg)
I wasn't even in there that long, but I felt like I was suffocating. My body becomes so irritatingly noisy, so I started breathing at a normal rate, except now my breathing was deafeaning. The sound was so confusing that it made me think I was gasping. Mentally I knew that wasn't happening, but I had to fight the instinct to fight for air. Still, my body reacted and my heart rate was going up, furiously loud. I think I would have eventually calmed down, but the whole experience was just so odd I decided I shouldn't push my luck.
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Armaegis you should try an isolation tank, you know, the type that turned William Hurt into a primate in Altered States.
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Armaegis you should try an isolation tank, you know, the type that turned William Hurt into a primate in Altered States.
I'm kinda claustrophobic and have nearly drowned a half dozen times (I'm a lousy swimmer, but all of those have just been incredibly poor luck/circumstances). I think an isolation tank might kill me.