CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on July 19, 2012, 05:25:06 AM

Title: Yamaha YH-100 (modified) Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: Marvey on July 19, 2012, 05:25:06 AM
Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=415.0;attach=1885;image)

Note from RD: "ortho Grado with bass". I do not know if they are modded for not. Maybe RD can clarify.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on July 19, 2012, 05:51:36 AM
Ahh!  No wonder I never liked these.  I put quite a bit of effort into getting rid of that resonance peak, tried every trick I know for killing enclosure resonance except the holes in the cups.  In the end I believe it is coming from the driver.  I think the YH100 is kind of the Tesla Yamaha.  AFAIK it is a YH1 driver with stronger magnets, making it more efficient.  The plus side is astoundingly good bass capability, close to LCD-2 I'd say with the right damping scheme.  And it has a slightly faster sound than the YH1 either that or the peak gives it a "clarity effect" or maybe both.  But I think what we're seeing is possibly the diaphragm being driven too hard by this increase in magnet strength.  The YH1/HP1 was developed first, and I bet they didn't do their homework as much when making this model, but instead kind of hacked a new flagship by making the HP1 magnet stronger.  (This was their flagship after the YH/HP1000). 

I actually think a lot of people would love these phones, and a lot of people do.  The ringing and peak gives electric guitars a rather Grado like bite, but the rest of the signature is more balanced and they have crazy man bass that will shake your skull.  Doesn't have to be emphasized, it just goes very deep with a lot of control. 

Will be interesting if Purrin does distortion to see if distortion is improved from the YH1 by the stronger magents. 

This pair is modded in a similar fashion to the YH1 but with no holes in the cups, but after spending a lot of time on them, I eventually just sent them in.  Nothing I did changed this resonant spot, even when I focus on nothing but resonance killing, it's still there.  That's when I gave up and sent them in to see what it would look like. 
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on July 19, 2012, 06:08:05 AM
I'd love to see measurements of these stock.  I think it would be scary as hell. 

So ortho ninjas what do you think?
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: gurubhai on July 19, 2012, 06:36:37 AM
That 2-3k region is certainly a problem area with certain yammies. I have usually found the smaller driver yammies to be better behaved in this regard.

Although, I don't believe that yamaha slapped higher strength magnets on HP-1 to create a YH-100(That freak is called aniso HP-1 :p)
The Aniso HP-1 and YH-100 have similar magnet strength & despite that they sound quite different from each other(still have the yamaha house sound though).Also the efficiency is different,so I surmise that their  are some driver trace differences as well between HP-1 & YH-100.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on July 19, 2012, 07:33:11 AM
Yup.  As I was guessing, the YH100 and YH1 have ringing in the same exact spot, it's just very mild mannered in the YH1.  Thanks for the clarification on the YH100, I forgot about the Aniso.  We need to measure one of those to confirm.  I still think, given the CSD's, that the stronger magnet is overdriving the diaphragm causing a peak there in addition to worsening the driver's problem spot. 

Maybe Arnaud can chime in here if he has any thoughts. 

I'll put the YH1 and YH100 CSD's next to each other here, it's really interesting to compare them.  These drivers are both 55mm btw...  not sure what if any differences there are in the diaphragm.  Same magnet structure, but stronger magnet in the YH100. 

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389.0;attach=1701;image)

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=415.0;attach=1863;image)
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: gurubhai on July 19, 2012, 07:56:23 AM
RD : Are both of these damped with felt?
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on July 19, 2012, 08:00:54 AM
Yes, both of these have a single layer of felt behind the driver, then the rest is mostly enclosure resonance control.  But the YH100 needs to be damped harder, there's a critical point (to steal your term Guru) where you're giving the driver enough driver damping without causing more peaks in the response.  So the YH100 has a denser felt.  The YH1 is also much more open back, so that contributes, but I think the same would be true if they were both in their stock enclosures. 

To elaborate, I've found that felt works best as driver damping on the Yamahas because it is softer on damping the treble, so you get a smoother roll-off, whereas other materials get you more treble which I liked for a while, before I noticed the roughness caused by a peak, and then rolloff. 

You can actually see in the YH100 graph a small peak in the treble before it dips.  This is a small version of what (I think) you get when you try to damp the driver harder for more treble in these Yammies.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: omegakitty on July 19, 2012, 09:29:52 PM
RD do you think it's a bigger PIA to mod the YH-100 since they don't have the rear opening holes like the HP-1?
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: dBel84 on July 19, 2012, 10:25:32 PM
The real pain with the YH100 is the very shallow cup and baffle that folds over the front  -  overall it is a fun process for developing new vocabulary..dB
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: arnaud on July 20, 2012, 03:46:34 AM
3kHz, humm, difficult question because pretty much everything could potential ring there (closed or semi-open acoustic chamber, diaphragm, frame, coupled structural/acoustic mode).

Without seeing the actual design, the quickest way to investigate would be to measure the open air baffled (doesn't need a large baffle, just stick the mic in the near field) driver response. I am not familiar with orthos in general, and the yammy driver in particular so I am close to useless here :).
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-100 Frequency Response and CSD Waterall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on July 20, 2012, 03:57:38 AM
The real pain with the YH100 is the very shallow cup and baffle that folds over the front  -  overall it is a fun process for developing new vocabulary..dB

I didn't get the feeling the YH100 cup is any shallower than the YH1, did you?  They are both too shallow.  Biggest problem with the housing IMO

RD do you think it's a bigger PIA to mod the YH-100 since they don't have the rear opening holes like the HP-1?

The YH100 is definitely the most challenging Yammie to damp and mod IME though the YH1 is a bitch too.  The driver is just a big picky bastard.  I guess the challenge comes from the likelihood that it's got extra issues to deal with that the YH1 doesn't have.  But it's not a terrible place to have ringing like that, I mean compared to some other phones.  If it's not bothersome to you (or desirable as I'm guessing it is to most HF'ers) it does have the crazy man bass. 

I don't think the side vents are a big factor but I can't be sure.  I might drill holes into the back of the cups and see what happens, but it's really time consuming to do neatly and I'm not sure it's worth it. 

3kHz, humm, difficult question because pretty much everything could potential ring there (closed or semi-open acoustic chamber, diaphragm, frame, coupled structural/acoustic mode).

Without seeing the actual design, the quickest way to investigate would be to measure the open air baffled (doesn't need a large baffle, just stick the mic in the near field) driver response. I am not familiar with orthos in general, and the yammy driver in particular so I am close to useless here :) .

Problem with that is that the drivers need damping to function right, so you might be measuring the lack of damping more than the lack of cups.  But I'd love to see what would happen.  Marv, you're welcome to open them up if you're up for it, let me know and I'll tell you where the screws are.  These orthos are very cool in that the cable is attached to the driver, which is free floating, so you can easily remove the driver and play with it.  Just have to be careful no dust or debris get into the driver, so keep it covered if it's sitting out. 
Title: Yamaha YH-100 Harmonic Distortion
Post by: Marvey on July 21, 2012, 07:34:52 AM
Yamaha YH-100 Harmonic Distortion

As RD predicted. Lower distortion than YH-1.