CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: audiofrk on September 11, 2015, 05:03:52 PM
-
So I am seeing a lot of people stating that they are getting the gumby to use with their Valhalla's or other smaller/single ended amps. My question is why get the gumby? Why not wait till the MB bifrost? Am I missing something?
-
Yes you are - Gumby = [Multibit]
-
I haven't been reading HF and really have no idea what people think there. But several people here who have both Yggy and Gumby feel that Gumby is close to Yggy. Perhaps a bit too close. Also, people don't like to wait.
-
So I am seeing a lot of people stating that they are getting the gumby to use with their Valhalla's or other smaller/single ended amps. My question is why get the gumby? Why not wait till the MB bifrost? Am I missing something?
Multibit Bifrost likely won't come until next year, so that's a bit of a wait. Reports from others (by way of Redacted^2 commentary from Marv and others) have described the prototypes as warm but resolving. Note its position on the DAC chart under the Master 7 with current USB.
A lot of people wanted something closer to Yggy's tonality and technicalities but for a cheaper price.
Others were just impatient and wanted a bad-ass upgrade just because.
Others still already owned a Gungnir - making the upgrade a no-brainer.
Plus, hey, balanced outputs for Mojo2 or the Cavalli Liquid Carbon and multiple outputs period. Just a nice bonus.
-
Ok that makes a little more sense still to buy a balance dac to power a single ended "midrange" amp got me scratching my head.
thought I heard both redacted dacs never been able to compare them directly. Still I feel that maybe people would get more out of a better amp than better dac. Though that's just a speculative opinion
-
Multibit Bifrost likely won't come until next year,
A lot of people wanted something closer to Yggy's tonality and technicalities but for a cheaper price.
Others were just impatient and wanted a bad-ass upgrade just because.
Plus, hey, balanced outputs for Mojo2 or the Cavalli Liquid Carbon and multiple outputs period. Just a nice bonus.
These are my reasons to get a Gumby. Not sure how prevalent Source Selection is on DACs but that was also something I needed and found in the Gumby.
-
I read some jibber jabber over at HF about the gumby's single-ended outputs gimping the performance big-time.. Any truth to this?
-
Once I heard about the Yggy trickle down, I targeted one of those. The Gumby was a little bit out of the price range I wanted to pay, but I'm glad I did. It is the only separate DAC that I own. So no getting a crapload of lesser DAC's that I would have to sell in order to get one of what I wanted.
-
I read some jibber jabber over at HF about the gumby's single-ended outputs gimping the performance big-time.. Any truth to this?
I believe that's based on one reviewer comparing single ended output of Gumby against another dac, and everyone there glomming on that review for all its worth.
-
Stillhart compared the DAC-19 and Gumby on his Liquid Carbon. He preferred the Gumby if you go balanced and DAC-19 if you use single-ended. But that's one amp.
-
I believe that's based on one reviewer comparing single ended output of Gumby against another dac, and everyone there glomming on that review for all its worth.
That's part of it, along with conflating accounts of the Single Ended vs Balanced differences of Mjolnir 2 and Ragnarok - whose circlotron topology makes the differences far more substantial - with Multibit Gungnir SE/Balanced differences.
Though, and I'll have to search about a bit to see if I can find it, but I do seem to remember someone mentioning a while back that the Gungnir SE outputs weren't as good as the balanced outputs.
Edit: Can't find it, and I have 50 more pages of textbook reading on cataloging theory to do tonight so fuck late night searching. The differences between SE and Balanced on the Gungnir MB are almost certainly overblown or we'd see more people complaining about it with their EC Black Widows.
-
I read some jibber jabber over at HF about the gumby's single-ended outputs gimping the performance big-time.. Any truth to this?
performing meaningful line level matched comparisons between balanced/unbalanced would be a PITA without 2 Gumbys and 2 identical amplifiers side by side.
if you're worried about the extra summing circuit in the path, i assume you can bypass the unbalanced summing circuitry with an XLR to RCA cable that leaves pin 3 floating. this is how i have my DS Gungnir connected, but i would double check with Schiit in the case of the Gumby.
-
I read some jibber jabber over at HF about the gumby's single-ended outputs gimping the performance big-time.. Any truth to this?
I tried balanced vs. SE. Balanced sounded slightly better, but it wasn't something I would freak out about. For Yggy or Gumby, the proper way might be an Jenson XLR to SE ISOBOX. You really do want both legs of the differential output.
-
I tried balanced vs. SE. Balanced sounded slightly better, but it wasn't something I would freak out about. For Yggy or Gumby, the proper way might be an Jenson XLR to SE ISOBOX. You really do want both legs of the differential output.
Here's something I don't understand. Basically, what the Jenson Isobox does (and the balanced XLR inputs of amps like BA, Studio and my L-2 amp) is not merely converting XLR to RCA but summing a pair of balanced signal to unbalanced using balanced transformers. Am I correct?
If so, isn't the RCA single-ended output signal of Yggy/Gumby also produced by summing the balanced output signal that would've otherwise gone to XLR? That there's also a pair of balanced transformers inside Yggy that handles this job?
And if so, it's only a matter of whether this "summing balanced to unbalanced" duty is handled inside the DAC right before the output, or between DAC and amp (as in the case of Jensen Isobox), or inside the amp right after the input (as in the case of stock BA/Studio/L-2)?
I remember you saying in another thread that the Jensen Isobox is just as good as the Cinemag balanced input transformers inside BA. Since you're recommending people to use this Isobox, am I safe to assume that Yggy's output balanced transformers (the ones that sum balanced output signal to unbalanced) isn't as good as external Jensen Isobox or Cinemag transformers inside the BA?
And since I'm asking this, did you hear a noticeable improvement by using Jensen Isobox between Yggy and BW? In other words, Yggy XLR output -> Jensen Isobox -> Black Widow sounds superior to Yggy RCA output -> BW?
-
Haven't heard these particular small Jensen transformers, but I have heard others like their MC step-ups. They do make good stuff. There is a shared history between Jensen and Cinemag. If you ask around, you'll hear some "x is better y" neener, neener, neener crap.
The difference is whether you want transistors in the Yggy doing the summing or the Jensen/Cinmag transformers doing the summing.
I have only tried with BA and Studio. The balanced inputs sound warmer, less lean/grainy, and more lively and less flat. The increase in sound quality was about 2.376%. Whether this is worth it is up to you. The price of the Jenson PC-2XR box is nothing in Summit-Fi terms.
I have also tried the one leg of XLR approach (as suggested by the wacko who put special stickers on top of the caps), but this seemed overall worse than the Yggy's SE outputs. But I thought this was worth pointing out because people have different opinions on what sounds better.
-
I can confirm the single leg cable solution is worse sounding than SE summed. I've tried both cable configs on Yggy and will never try that again.
-
Some manufacturers cut some corners to save a little and only take the positive side on the left and right XLR channels for their RCA outputs.
The proper way to do this is summing both positive and negative legs from each XLR channels. Not being the uber engineer myself, I confirmed this with a few industry guys (Jason and Mike from Schiit being in the lot) and they all agreed.
The issue is whether or not you think the summing done in the Gungnir or Yggdrasil is not good enough and that an outboard solution like the Jensen Isobox will make a substantial difference. I haven't heard the Isobox so I can't know for sure but the Jensen transformer being circa $300, it doesn't seem wise to spend a third (Gungnir D-S) or a quarter (Gungnir R2R) of the DAC budget on an outboard XLR to RCA solution.
-
The proper way to do this is summing both positive and negative legs from each XLR channels.
Not being an engineer at all, let alone uber, but this is what I understand....
Balanced and unbalanced line connections are completely different technologies. The purpose of balanced connections is to detect noise collected by the cable and eliminate it. Summing the +ve and -ve identifies the noise.
Balanced and unbalanced gear can be connected simply by using and adaptor cable (been there, done that, recently) but it is not the right way to do it because the voltages are very different. Hence the availability of converter boxes which convert the voltage as well as the pin-outs.
right?
-
Thad, somehow adapters for SE to balanced (or vice versa) don't work well for me. I have RCA to XLR cables that I don't use anymore. I recently bought the TRRS to XLR adapter from Amazon for the GO V2 which works very well though. Let's see how the Jensen works though.
-
In an ideal world. Wait... In my ideal world, everything would be balanced.
It is absolutely completely and utterly unnecessary for the short runs of hifi-audio interconnects but, hey, it is such a superior technology. In fact, would it be fair to say that balanced connection is a technology, whereas all that RCA stuff is just an accident?
-
Gumby se output is definitely NOT gimped.
-
I haven't been reading HF and really have no idea what people think there. But several people here who have both Yggy and Gumby feel that Gumby is close to Yggy. Perhaps a bit too close. Also, people don't like to wait.
Count me as one of those that believe the Gumby is very close to the Yggy. Yggy is the most accurate and neutral. As such every music mixing and mastering facility should audition one. Gumby is ever so slightly less resolving with a touch more euphony. These are slight differences though, very slight. I think Gumby is a better choice for most recreational listeners. I will certainly spend a lot of time enjoying Gumby with my amp collection. I won't be letting go of my Yggy however.
Gumby is the DAC that should scare the bejeezus out of most DAC mfgs. An excellent sounding performer at such a modest price. Others here and on HF can espouse flowery attributes better than I, but to my ears the Gumby delivers dimension and depth of the music with a better emotional connection than any other DAC I have experienced other than the Yggy.
-
I tried balanced vs. SE. Balanced sounded slightly better, but it wasn't something I would freak out about. For Yggy or Gumby, the proper way might be an Jenson XLR to SE ISOBOX. You really do want both legs of the differential output.
Radial Engineering Twin ISO. Latest version has Eclipse transformers designed as Deane Jensen originally intended. I have the Jensen transformer version but will be comparing the Eclipse version soon. Gumby balanced out to Twin ISO into Project Sunrise III (thanks @Solderdude!) and HD650 makes for an extraordinary emotional connection with the music. Kept me toe tapping and bouncing in my chair, wishing a wireless system could deliver this kind of auditory enjoyment so one could get up and move with the music.
-
Radial Engineering Twin ISO.
What's the difference between that and a regular JDI stereo... Just features?
-
What's the difference between that and a regular JDI stereo... Just features?
JDI Stereo is a direct box with unbalanced 140Kohm input impedance for guitar pickups and 150 ohm output for connection to mic preamp inputs.
Twin ISO is 600 / 600 ohm isolator meant for interconnection between pro audio balanced circuits.
-
Bob you're having WAY to much fun… :)p7
Enjoy!
And gefski fell in love with this setup.
After hearing it with the Mousai MSD192 I can understand why…
JJ
-
Ah that makes sense Bob, thanks. I've never used the Radial stuff, just some generic ART DI boxes that I've used interchangeably between instruments and interconnects (when it's the only tool in the box, then it's the right tool for the job... ::))
-
@johnjen - Glad that Glen was able hear this setup when he came to borrow the sine inverter for hot transport of the yggdrasil. Really bummed I wasn't able to attend and share this rig's sonic delights. You will have an opportunity to hear it soon. 14 day countdown to a change in pace.
-
Excellent news about the 14 day project completion date.
Being able to relax and enjoy some time off will really help.
And yeah the hot transport of the Jggy was a treat.
We all really enjoyed that opportunity.
I made some comments in the secret meet thread and I am really glad I can still listen and enjoy my setup despite the obvious improvement that the Jggy brings to the table.
2 weeks and counting… :)p7
JJ
-
Radial Engineering Twin ISO. Latest version has Empirical transformers designed as Deane Jensen originally intended. I have the Jensen transformer version but will be comparing the Emperical version soon. Gumby balanced out to Twin ISO into Project Sunrise III (thanks @Solderdude!) and HD650 makes for an extraordinary emotional connection with the music. Kept me toe tapping and bouncing in my chair, wishing a wireless system could deliver this kind of auditory enjoyment so one could get up and move with the music.
I thought this was something you were using instead of the Jensen iso max Marv has been recommending. But it's a balanced to balanced converter instead. So I have to ask, why use the balanced to balanced transformers to go single ended into the sunrise?
-
I thought this was something you were using instead of the Jensen iso max Marv has been recommending. But it's a balanced to balanced converter instead. So I have to ask, why use the balanced to balanced transformers to go single ended into the sunrise?
The Jensen PI-2XR and older Radial Twin ISO have very similar if not the same transformers. PI-2XR is pre-configured for balanced to unbalanced. Either a PI-2XX or Twin ISO is more flexible allowing balanced both sides or converting to unbalanced through use of an XLRF to RCA pin 2 hot adapter cable. In the studio it is handy to have XLR iso boxes on the shelf depending on a given day's needs. Same for an acoustic lab. I own an acoustic lab. So I have them on the shelf. Experimentation is the reason why I tried this combination and I rather enjoy the results.
-
So I am seeing a lot of people stating that they are getting the gumby to use with their Valhalla's or other smaller/single ended amps. My question is why get the gumby? Why not wait till the MB bifrost? Am I missing something?
I could no longer resist...
(http://www.thefatcontroller.co.uk/portfolio/albums/userpics/my_brain_hurts.jpg)
-
The Jensen PI-2XR and older Radial Twin ISO have very similar if not the same transformers. PI-2XR is pre-configured for balanced to unbalanced. Either a PI-2XX or Twin ISO is more flexible allowing balanced both sides or converting to unbalanced through use of an XLRF to RCA pin 2 hot adapter cable. In the studio it is handy to have XLR iso boxes on the shelf depending on a given day's needs. Same for an acoustic lab. I own an acoustic lab. So I have them on the shelf. Experimentation is the reason why I tried this combination and I rather enjoy the results.
Using that cable isn't the same as just using one leg of the XLR coming out of gumby? I don't have the best understanding of transformers so pardon my ignorance on this one.
-
It works just like a shaving socket. Electrical isolation, but magnetic flux! :)p13
-
Using that cable isn't the same as just using one leg of the XLR coming out of gumby? I don't have the best understanding of transformers so pardon my ignorance on this one.
Ignorance is solvable by asking questions as you are, a very good thing.
Using a transformer in the path creates galvanic isolation while adding another circuit element, specifically a magnetic one. Some will argue this is a good thing. Some will argue this is a bad thing, for the sound quality.
Using one side of the balance output to the center of an RCA avoids the magnetic circuit element and also avoids galvanic isolation. Some will argue this is a good thing. Some will argue this is a bad thing, for the sound quality.
In either case, they are different methods to achieve a balanced to unbalanced connection.
-
Using that cable isn't the same as just using one leg of the XLR coming out of gumby? I don't have the best understanding of transformers so pardon my ignorance on this one.
A transformer basically copies the signal that comes in one side and pumps it out the other (sometimes increased or decreased by a factor determined by the ratio of the windings on each side of the transformer).
On the input side, your signal is the voltage difference between the + and - wire. This is balanced input. You don't know where each wire's voltage is relative to ground, but you don't care. Let's say the two voltages are A and B, thus the difference is (A-B). I don't know the exact values of A or B by themselves, but I can calculate an exact value for (A-B). Think of those old school see-saw-type balance scales. You don't have to know the exact weight on each side, but the difference between them determines how much it tips to one side. Let's say (A-B) = 10 for a nice round number. My two wires could be -5 & +5, or 0 & 10, or 20 & 30, or 1000 & 1010, I don't know, I only care about the difference.
If I didn't use a transformer and simply took one wire from my input for my single-ended output and referenced it to ground, obviously some of these scenarios are going to be bad mojo. A thousand volts will ruin anyone's day unless your name ends with Frankenstein.
With a transformer, on the output side the signal is also the difference between the + and - wire. If I have wire C and D, then the difference is (C-D). Again I don't know the exact values of C and D, but I know what the difference between them is.
Assuming a 1:1 transformer where you get the same thing on each side... (C-D) = *(A-B)
* a different transformer will add a factor here
However, at the output side you get to choose where each of those is relative to ground. So let's say I short D to the ground, thus D= 0 at all times. By doing so, I now precisely know the value of C where C=(A-B)=10 and I can safely use C as a singled ended output.
-
My question is why get the gumby? Why not wait till the MB bifrost? Am I missing something?
Yeah... you're missing the fact that MB Bifrost doesn't exist... yet, broski.
If a prototype isn't shown/demoed/leaked/stolen by now, you can bet it'll be late next year before it comes out.
Gumby is available now, at about half the price of Yggy, with a smaller footprint, and it gets pretty close. How close will MB Bifrost be to Yggy? What's its price? Is the small housing of Bifrost able to house a MB DAC that's up to par? When will it come out?
We don't know, so... Gumby.
-
Bill-P,
What are you talking about?
A number of them have shown up "by now" at local Chang meets and impressions already made.
facepalm
-
Bill-P,
What are you talking about?
A number of them have shown up "by now" at local Chang meets and impressions already made.
facepalm
No, what are YOU talking about? ;)
Where are impressions of MB Bifrost? Mind sharing some links?
-
No, what are YOU talking about? ;)
Where are impressions of MB Bifrost? Mind sharing some links?
In this thread...
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2630.0.html
-
In this thread...
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2630.0.html
I don't see mentions of a MB Bifrost.
I do see a Redacted, but surely... it's Redacted for a reason, right? ;)
-
I don't see mentions of a MB Bifrost.
I do see a Redacted, but surely... it's Redacted for a reason, right? ;)
Yeah it 's reDACted... Several impressions through the thread. It wasn't playing nice with Mac's, and had a glitch or two...
-
Yeah it 's reDACted... Several impressions through the thread. It wasn't playing nice with Mac's, and had a glitch or two...
Well, I'm saying... it's redacted for a reason. Which means... we shouldn't be disclosing its real name at this time. ;)
But yeah, I'm aware it's been there this entire time. I did hear the Gungnir MB prototype back at CanJam Feb, too. All things considered, that's actually what I was alluding to.
Gumby is close to Yggdrasil, but I get the feeling Redacted would be sacrificing quite a few things in order to fit into that enclosure. I'm sure we can see from Marv's DAC chart already. Not that I'm 100% in agreement with Marv all the time, but my DAC impressions have been consistent with his so far.
So that makes Redacted less attractive to me, although I've always wanted it. It would fit on my desk much better than Gungnir, for one, and then when I do my yearly travel to Vietnam, Redacted would be less of a hassle to transport.
-
aka BooBoo and aka redacted^2 to avoid confusion with redacted, which was the MB Gungnir... :)p13
-
I would think it is almost impossible for the BMB not to show up during the upcoming canjam. only question is how long it will take before it is available to order.
-
I'm going to RMAF to see if I can get a proper read most of my body says suck it up get the yggy but the budget side says get the gumby. Hopefully I will be able to do some serious listening and make a decision.
-
So I am seeing a lot of people stating that they are getting the gumby to use with their Valhalla's or other smaller/single ended amps. My question is why get the gumby? Why not wait till the MB bifrost? Am I missing something?
Hey, a question I can actually answer. :) I bought gumby and am using it with my Asgard2. My reasoning:
1. I want it now, dammit!
2. I'll probably buy a balanced amp at some point.
3. The price doesn't seem unreasonable for what you are getting.
4. Even SE gumby will probably sound better than MB bifrost (most people seem to say DS gungnir sounds better than DS bifrost even using SE)
-
Concerning the upcoming RMAF/CanJam
http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/7740#post_11928096 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/7740#post_11928096)
From Mr. Schiit, himself:
...
1. You get Mike at the show, who will have an announcement on the digital side of things.
...
Beyond that, with any luck, I will have one more announcement before the end of the year (hopefully not another illness...you know what I mean!)
All the best,
Jason
-
Hey, a question I can actually answer. :) I bought gumby and am using it with my Asgard2. My reasoning:
1. I want it now, dammit!
2. I'll probably buy a balanced amp at some point.
3. The price doesn't seem unreasonable for what you are getting.
4. Even SE gumby will probably sound better than MB bifrost (most people seem to say DS gungnir sounds better than DS bifrost even using SE)
Gracias swabie you get karma