CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: Marvey on September 07, 2015, 03:14:08 AM
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LHLabs Geek Out V2 Review and Measurements
Going to keep things short as usual. I compared the Geek Out V2 with a combination of other gear which included the iFi Nano iDSD, the Schiit Modi 1, and the Magni 2. HD650s (coin modded and damping removed) were used, not an easy headphone to drive to its full potential, but I think a good test.
I don't normally talk about stuff that can be found the specs or in the manuals, but there are couple things I felt should be mentioned. One of the things I did not like with the prior iteration of the Geek Out was that I had no idea if I was in FRM or TCM mode or what the buttons did. This time around, the user interface is much improved. The GOv2 has colored indicators for gain and filter settings. The bottom bottom selects the gain stages, the top button selects the filter. The bottom LED next to the "C" is blue for high gain and white for low gain. The top LED next to the "DM" is blue for TCM, green for FRM, and red for some filter that is supposed to be used with streaming services. As you can see in the picture, the V2 was used with the high gain and FRM filter.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2806.0;attach=10850;image)
The red "streaming" filter sounded the worst; however I wasn't using any streaming sources. I played back only FLAC from JRiver. I know some people prefer TCM (minimum phase filter with no pre-ringing), but I've never liked this filter on any DAC that I've owned or evaluated that gave me this choice. So it's the linear phase filter for me, which would be the FRM "green" LED color. The subject of filters is entirely another topic and won't be covered here. I only want to add that the arguments (found in various marketing whitepapers) claiming reduced pre-ringing as being the most natural sounding are bullshit, at least in my opinion. I see it more as "different" than "musical natural". Finally, I wouldn't say that the FRM filter is better than TCM in every way, but rather that that FRM filter is a better match for what I like to hear. I'll let the rest of you guys open the door to this one with Q&A or perhaps chime in with your own experiences.
So in a nutshell, I find the Geek Out V2 to be pretty darn good. This is something I wished I had on my trip to D.C. a few weeks ago.
Let me summarize its strengths (taking into context its size and intended use):
- Resolving. Ambient decays, low level information, plankton are easily heard.
- Engaging. Comparatively excellent microdynamics. The prior GO tended to compress sounds, expanding loud and crushing softer sounds - a more exaggerated contrast. The V2 on the other hand does a very good job distinguishing between volumes and digging into the small swings. While not close to serious desktop DACs like Gumby, I can easily say that the GO V2 is superior in this specific sonic attribute to all other portable DACs/amps that I've heard regardless of price. This includes the overpriced garbage from Chord (although the Hugo TT does some specific other things better). Those who know me understand this is my #1 consideration in evaluating gear.
If I had to nickpick:
- Lack of power. Softness, and lack of ultimate macro-dynamic ability. The HD650s are notoriously difficult to drive well. They are super high impedance and love a ton of voltage swing. This puts something like the Geek Out V2, which is powered by the USB 5V power rails at a serious disadvantage. There is where balanced bridged circuits shine. Unfortunately I did not have any TRRS to XLR 4-pin adapters on hand. I suspect with the balanced outputs, the GOv2 might be brought to another level with the HD650.
- Lack of ultimate clarity, blackness, refinement and poise, probably related to #1.
Now before people get worried, I need to put these criticisms in proper context, the iFi iDSD Nano was significantly worse in terms of softness and congestion. When the music got busy or loud, the iFi iDSD Nano (on a fully charged battery) sort of goes flub flub flub flub and gets confused and congested in the lower registers. In comparison, the Geek Out V2 does get softer on the impacts, but still maintains control and separation.
For less stressful musical passages, the macro-dynamics on the Geek Out V2 were more impactful. For example, the crescendo on Neal Schon's guitar arpeggio leading up to the drum hits around the one minute mark of Don't Stop Believin' were much more believable on the Geek Out V2 than on the iFi. The Modi 1 / Magni 2 stack had equal macrodynamics and better clarity, blackness, and poise, but this comparison is rather unfair as the Magni 2 gets a huge AC 14V 1.4 amp power brick. I did find that the Geek Out V2 was superior in terms of resolution and engagement than this stack. The Modi 1 / Magni 2 was a tiny bit flatter and slightly less resolving than the Geek Out V2. Among the setups, the iFi was the flattest, most boring, and least controlled sounding, the Geek Out V2 was the most resolving and lively, and the Modi 1/2 was the most controlled and powerful.
In terms of digititus and tonal balance, the Modi 1 is the most grainy and least warm. The Geek Out V2 (FRM) and iFi iDSD Nano are actually on par in terms of lack of digital nasties. Both exhibit a warm tonal balance. Both lack any significant digital sheen or glare, which is impressive for the Geek Out V2, being Sabre. While I've never thought highly of the iFi, I do have to acknowledge that one of its strengths is lack of digititus. In the end, don't expect R2R type sound though. Finally, I should mention that the Geek Out V2 in TCM mode is too digital sounding for me.
I'll see if I can get any measurements done tonight.
Measurements (as a DAC): http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2806.msg81026.html#msg81026 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2806.msg81026.html#msg81026)
Ultrabike measurements (as a DAC/headamp): http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2601.msg73762.html#msg73762 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2601.msg73762.html#msg73762)
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Running the HD6XX balanced makes a big difference with V2. It's a shame that finding TRRS adapters is such a pain in the ass.
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In theory, balanced should offer x2 voltage swing, which is what the Sennheisers love. LH should offer them. I didn't even know about this balanced option. The balanced option should have been played up more in the marketing materials.
BTW, the manual is pretty good. Thank you LH for doing this. Now you can tell users to RTFM.
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I'm away from home working for the next 3 weeks... The HD650's 4 pin XLR balanced into the GOV2's balanced TRRS is very nice indeed. They work very nicely together.
A nice step up from the SE ouput of the GOV2 headbang
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You fucker!
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I have two TRRS to 4 pin adapters. Suck it.
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yah whatever- I had a 4pin to TRRS made up ahead of time (for GOV2+Inf) for HD800 and HE-400S (as well as a TRRS balanced for IEMs).
am still surprised have to jack up the iPhone/iPad volume slider to about 75% even in balanced to get to a normal listening level.
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Bought my adapter from the dude on amazon...
Bought a TRRS plug from Markertek, going to see if I have the patience to solder it, and make my own adapter with a beefier cable.
The amazon one feels fragile and wimpy walk the plank2
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1kHz tone measurements attached. 100k ohm load (as a DAC). Note that these are different from Ultrabike's who is measuring on a 300ohm load (I will do this later).
Very clean.
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1) 19+20kHz test tones. We are seeing some ultrasonic products.
2) FRM response (fed white noise). Note the 64kHz spike.
3) TCM response (fed white noise). Note the 64kHz spike.
4) 19kHz signal. Don't why know there is a 25.1k spike (similar to #1). Can someone explain this?
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multitone tests.
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reserved
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LHLabs Geek Out V2 Review
I see someone has a Silverstone Fortress FT-02 :)p1
IMO one of the best non-gaming cases ever created; not enough air for a gaming rig, though. Top panel seems slightly different than mine so I guess it's not USB3?
For some reason, I just can't get past the $299 price point for GOv2.
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How does the DAC section of the v2 compare to the Bifrost Uber.
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1kHz tone measurements attached. 100k ohm load (as a DAC). Note that these are different from Ultrabike's who is measuring on a 300ohm load (I will do this later).
Very clean.
LOL! My equipments is proly limited actually. For better performing DACs and Amps I trust the your QA400 measurements more.
I also find the GOV2 pretty engaging. It's something I was also looking for since it's pretty plug/play and decent sounding. I run it in high gain single ended for my HD600s. This combo is what I use the most from my laptop these days actually.
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How does the DAC section of the v2 compare to the Bifrost Uber.
Warmer. Comparable, maybe one notch better when all things considered. GOv2 is softer, but more engaging and less grainy. Bifrost has better defined edges.
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25.1K spike with 19khz tone at 44.1Ksps is caused by the reconstruction filter used.
44100-19000 = 25100hz -> aliasing distortion related to transition band slope and stopband attenuation.
edit for shit math.
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Yes. Possible the transition band is too wide. Perhaps stop band attenuation is not sufficient as well. Dunno what the cause of the 64 kHz is. What is the clock frequency? (I already sealed my GO w crazy glue)
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For FRM the transition band is very gradual to reduce time domain ringing. I'm not sure about it since datasheet for the 9018 used in the GOV2 is undisclosed. For a mobile device though, its probably the DC charge pump.
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Where can I get a TRRS male connector (preferably with wires already soldered on one end just I can just re-terminate with an 4-pin XLR on the other end? Does anyone know the pinout?
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Diagram here, https://support.lhlabs.com/support/solutions/articles/5000634421-geek-out-v2-user-manual-
No idea what the Norne TRRS looks like inside, whether it has mounting lugs or is the simple barrel kind(more likely) but here it is http://www.norneaudio.com/litzheim/oppo-pm-3-balanced-trrs-4-pole-diy-replacement-cable-connector-plug
Or you could just ebay some from China.
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It takes a little time, but I would go amazon on it. Sometimes Guitar Center has some stuff so might want to pay them a visit.
Probably one could also use this:
http://www.amazon.com/YCS-Basics-foot-3-5mm-conductor/dp/B00K0QQBXY/ref=sr_1_8?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1441647522&sr=1-8&keywords=trrs+cable
and reterminate one end with this:
http://www.amazon.com/Switchcraft-A4F-Female-Nickel-Finish/dp/B00C5B1BE6/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1441647724&sr=1-3&keywords=4+pin+xlr+female+connector
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If you don't feel like DIY (and don't mind paying for the materials and craftsmanship), Peter @ Double Helix can hook you up:
http://www.doublehelixcables.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=150
(I've found in the past that if he doesn't have it, he'll happily make it for you custom if he's not swamped with other orders).
If you do want to DIY, this may be your pinout:
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/c/c3/500x1000px-LL-c38b235f_02TRRSjack.jpeg)
(https://robrobinette.com/images/Audio/HiFiMAN_Pin_Diagram.gif)
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Diagram here, https://support.lhlabs.com/support/solutions/articles/5000634421-geek-out-v2-user-manual-
@zdfx: why my paper user manual look different from the online user manual. Why does my paper user manual not have any details of the TRRS connection? Yes, I RTFM - just not the online one.
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Where can I get a TRRS male connector (preferably with wires already soldered on one end just I can just re-terminate with an 4-pin XLR on the other end? Does anyone know the pinout?
http://www.markertek.com/product/35-4con-lp/3-5mm-trrs-4-conductor-low-profile-all-metal-audio-video-connector
Free shipping, no minimum purchase.
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Ordered about a half dozen pigtail TRRS from https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11580. I have plenty of 4-pin female adapters around. Stay tuned HD650 in balanced configuration.
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Ordered about a half dozen pigtail TRRS from https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11580. I have plenty of 4-pin female adapters around. Stay tuned HD650 in balanced configuration.
Nice... That will make life easier.
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@zdfx: why my paper user manual look different from the online user manual. Why does my paper user manual not have any details of the TRRS connection? Yes, I RTFM - just not the online one.
There was a paper manual? I look shit up online.
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Stop making excuses for them by implying its my fault, incompetence, or old-fashioned ways with my referring to what I had immediately on hand (the fucking paper manual) rather than bringing up Chrome and doing a Google search on "Geek Out V2 TRRS pin outs", and only because I feel the LHLabs site is big eye-sore and sucks from a functional point of view. Either LH decides to point people online (I would have no problem with that) or provide a paper manual which is consistent with their online user-manual. Especially for something which is supposedly crucial (TRRS balanced) to maximizing sound quality.
Little details count.
I am offering constructive criticism to LH here. I love the sound quality of a lot of LH gear I've listened to. However, I have not enjoyed other aspects such being being added to an LH spam list when I registered to download a driver, or not knowing what button did what with the GOV1, or what output was which, or what variation of product did what, etc. The list goes on and on. If LH wants to be taken more seriously and take it to the next level, they gotta do things really TIGHT. Hate to do this, but I'll point to Jason / Schiit as an example. Some of the switching options on the Rag are not intuitive, but I was able to find all the information I needed from the manual. Same goes for every other Schiit product with lots of switches, e.g. Mani, Yggy, etc. Schiit runs a very tight ship that will make 99% of their customers happy. 99.9% if they can read.
The fact that the GOV2 has balanced outs is only mentioned in fine print in the specs on the website (http://marketplace.lhlabs.com/products/geek-out-v2-usb-dac-headphone-amplifier (http://marketplace.lhlabs.com/products/geek-out-v2-usb-dac-headphone-amplifier)) is a HUGE omission, given what others have had to say about the performance increase with certain headphones like the Senns. I didn't even know this ahead of time, otherwise I would have wired up TRRS adapters BEFORE, not after getting the unit. Had I known about the TRRS before, the positive review I gave the GOV2 might have been an exemplary one from first get go.
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Exactly
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Wasn't actually criticizing you.
I am not advocating that support materials should be so difficult to track down. In fact, whenever possible I try to ship products with a shortlink and scannable barcode that takes you straight to support.
I actually didn't even know there was a manual in the box. I had to do some digging to find the manual online as well. It wasn't linked from the product page:
http://marketplace.lhlabs.com/products/geek-out-v2-usb-dac-headphone-amplifier
When I did find it, it was helpful for me. I was looking for more descriptions of the filters, though.
As for the TRRS pinout, I am opposed to non-standard connectors. I actually would have charged $30-50 more and thrown the adapter in the box. Too much chance for someone to fuck up their product then blame me when both ports look like regular headphone outputs.
You know my thoughts on product excellence, Marv :p
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As for the TRRS pinout, I am opposed to non-standard connectors. I actually would have charged $30-50 more and thrown the adapter in the box. Too much chance for someone to fuck up their product then blame me when both ports look like regular headphone outputs.
It would have required a few mm more thickness, but using a standard Kobiconn connector really would have solved this issue entirely. It would have opened up a whole world of easy cable access too.
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Pretty sure there was pages of debate and maybe even a poll about which jack to use on their forum. Kobicon would have been okay, but UE and AK already started using the 2.5mm.
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I think the thing that's hard about LH Labs is their information is spread out across forums, polls, indiegogo pages, indiegogo messages and their website. It's not all in one place and organized and easy to find and read. Frankly, if their communication was a bit more organized, I bet they'd have people loving them more than frustrated with them.
I'm just happy to have found a TRRS connector on amazon for $30.
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I think there might be warnings if there are dangers to using single-ended cables into balanced TRRS adapters. A quick explanation of why that is bad for your headphones would help too. Most people don't have balanced cables for 3.5mm TRRS yet and may look for adapters like I did. Without hearing the difference, I can understand wanting to risk less money on an adapter that can also be used for more than one headphone.
Now I have a balanced 4-Pin XLR Female to 3.5mm TRRS Male plug adapter that I will use with my Enigmas with balanced cable and my HD800 with balanced cable.
Not sure I want to bother with balanced IEM cables. Would like to hear other's experiences if you went balanced with IEMs and how much benefit there was. [size=78%] [/size]
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Am taking my GOV2+Infinity on vacation, have IEMs with balanced TRRS 3.5 and SE.
Will take an evening or two sometime to perform the comparison to SE and report impressions here.
May bring 400S With balanced adapter along also, which is a work rig.
Enjoy that pair immensely.
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^Right on. Thank you for comparing SE to balanced on the V2+ jexby! :)p1
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finally some isolated time while remote so here goes a quick compare of
GOV2+Inf
Balanced out vs. SE
mobile rig =
iPad mini 2
Apple Lightning to SB adapter
1ft custom YFS micro USB cable
Heir Audio 4.aiS with custom molds from InEarZ
1 magnus cable with Neutrik SE 3.5 plug
vs
1 magnus cable with Oyaide Bal TRRS 3.5 plug
(Oyaide_P-3.5SR)
Onkyo HF Player
24/96 FLAC files
GOV2+Inf had the blue light filter on, with amp at 450 setting.
did back and forths with the IEM cables, one in at a time.
and tried to level match as accurate as I possible with the IOS volume slider as the Bal output delivers more juice with slider at same position.
Summary:
Bal output provided slightly better bass definition and clarity, whereas bass in SE mode was a bit blurred. like, not hearing the drum skin stop clean.
soundstage seemed about equal as did the treble and cymbal shimmers.
vocals in SE mode seemed a tad pushed to the front of the mix compared to Bal in some tracks but need to be confirmed with more listens?
same black background, no hums or statics. even with GO in 1000 amp setting.
folks, I think we're in the last 5-10% improvement here with IEMs + decent source and cables. the SE are good on their own, and for some IEMs the Bal differences might never be noticed.
only pain in balanced cable is IEMs can't be plugged directly into the device, making GOV2+Inf mandatory and keeping it's battery charged.
Keeping SE cable in the bag for emergencies.
at work, will continue HE-400S into the GOV2+Inf balanced for that extra power without having the IOS volume slider at 75+%.
back to your regularly scheduled listening.