CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on May 30, 2012, 10:12:39 PM
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Sennheiser HD700 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Subjective pre-measurement observations:
More bass and thicker sounding than HD800. Probably more 2nd order distortion. 6kHz peak similar to HD800 but more nasty (sharper from top to bottom and also of greater magnitude.) Midrange is recessed. Treble sounds completely wrong. Timbre of high-hats and percussion are wrong. Snares and related percussion don't hurt as much as the prototype, but still not easy on the ears. Tonality makes me dizzy and nauseous - I lasted 2 minutes. Overall technical capability is between HD650 and HD800 - really not bad in this sense. It's lack of neutrality, mainly the recessed mids, and 6kHz peak completely kill this headphone for me. Nothing, including classical music sounds right, because the overtones are presented totally unnaturally.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=316.0;attach=1240;image)
Compared to HD558 (in red)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=316.0;attach=1242;image)
Compared to HD800 (in red)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=316.0;attach=1244;image)
With the exception of the 5-6k ridge, ringing appears to be well controlled in the treble. The ringing centering at 5.5k and peak at 11k could almost qualify for the double penetrating ridges of death. I'll throw up a few full spectrum non-linear distortion tests.
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More comparisons:
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Sparkly!
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So they fixed nothing?
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Nope. I was just imagining that they fixed things.
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Decent distortion figures.
The HD700 bass distortion is not impressive by today's standards. The HD800 and especially LCD3 bass distortion numbers are better. This is obvious via listening.
Note figures below are with tones at approximately 80db. Not really trying to push it too hard. Excuse the extremely noisy environment.
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Bass distortion figures are no better than HP1000, which were OK. They are effectively the same - see comparison graphs below. We can't even tell them apart.
The reason the HD700 sounds bassier than the HD800 despite having a similar FR in the bass is because it has more 2nd order distortion. For example, a 40Hz tone is going to be augmented with another 80Hz which wasn't there in the first place. Note that the HP1000 also exhibits this behavior. This is why the HD700 bass sounds fuller, but not as tight as the HD800's.
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reserved
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So if the HD800 is a weaponized face tweeter then what is the HD700?
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Very sad to see these results. Senn is old and established headphone company. It saddens me to see that they are putting out such rubbish at $1,000.00! Sad indeed.
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Open back M50 ftw
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good thing they have an "Industry Insider", sans transparent title, to assuage the masses. that J Willy recording engineer is a real treat, stroking the Senn dog's danglies. the HD650 were "neutral" until the HD800 hit ::).
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I'm glad you enjoyed them purrin. We didn't want to say anything to influence you. ;D
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Let's have a little positivity here, it looks at least salvageable, ringing is limited, some surgical EQ may turn the HD700 into something listenable. :)
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Don't think I have seen worse measurements for any other sennheiser headphone.
Things are certainly going downhill with them.
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purrin -- you should take a page from Ultrasone and swap in an HD558 driver into one ear. ;D
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When are you going to drop the O bomb on head-fi?
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You mean the Ultrasone measurement? Go right ahead. You guys have my permission.
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I mean the Hd700 Objective Bomb :-)
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Already did: http://www.head-fi.org/t/589738/sennheiser-hd-700-officially-unveiled-at-ces-2012/2880#post_8422434 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/589738/sennheiser-hd-700-officially-unveiled-at-ces-2012/2880#post_8422434)
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Take the TF10s, apply PEQ:
5.5kHz +12db Q of 4
11kHz +8db Q of 4
Presto!
I have an urge to try this. Just like the time I was 24 and had an urge to feel some 120VAC/60Hz from some screw posts.
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8)
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Post that here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/612250/comparing-some-of-the-finest-headphones-sennheiser-hd-600-hd-700-hd-800-hd-25-1-and-the-amperior-audio-technica-ath-m50s-audeze-lcd-2-rev-2-and-the-lcd-3/45 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/612250/comparing-some-of-the-finest-headphones-sennheiser-hd-600-hd-700-hd-800-hd-25-1-and-the-amperior-audio-technica-ath-m50s-audeze-lcd-2-rev-2-and-the-lcd-3/45)
Or post it in the appreciation thread. :)
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8)
rofl, RD mind if I make that my headfi avatard?
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Nope! :-)
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Sennheiser HD700 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Subjective pre-measurement observations:
More bass and thicker sounding than HD800. Probably more 2nd order distortion. 6kHz peak similar to HD800 but more nasty (sharper from top to bottom and also of greater magnitude.) Midrange is recessed. Treble sounds completely wrong. Timbre of high-hats and percussion are wrong. Snares and related percussion don't hurt as much as the prototype, but still not easy on the ears. Tonality makes me dizzy and nauseous - I lasted 2 minutes. Overall technical capability is between HD650 and HD800 - really not bad in this sense. It's lack of neutrality, mainly the recessed mids, and 6kHz peak completely kill this headphone for me. Nothing, including classical music sounds right, because the overtones are presented totally unnaturally.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=316.0;attach=1240;image)
The frequency range level plot of the 50 US$ JVC HA-RX900 looks similar at 6kHz
(found at: http://www.geocities.jp/mister_terch/VictorHPRX900.html ):
(http://www.geocities.jp/mister_terch/img140.gif)
Here's another (smoother) RX900 frequency range plot
(found at: http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/hp-rx900.html ):
(http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/hp-rx900_f.gif)
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Sennheiser HD700 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
With the exception of the 5-6k ridge, ringing appears to be well controlled in the treble. The ringing centering at 5.5k and peak at 11k could almost qualify for the double penetrating ridges of death. I'll throw up a few full spectrum non-linear distortion tests.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=316.0;attach=1246;image)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=316.0;attach=1248;image)
The waterfall plot of the 50 US$ JVC HA-RX900 show comparable ringing at 6kHz (down to -30dB within 2ms)
(found at: http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/hp-rx900.html ):
(http://www.geocities.jp/ryumatsuba/HP-RX900-Accumulate.gif)
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It's really hard to compare waterfall CSDs from different sources. Most of the decay in general looks significantly faster on the measurements from the geocities.jp site.
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I know the HD700 is old news to you guys. We put our Sennheiser HD700 review up: http://www.bestheadphonesguide.com/2012/06/hd700-review/
I let one of our other guys write the review instead of me. Thanks to Purrin for measuring them for us. The comments in the frequency response section of the review are his.
-TD
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I'm glad you enjoyed them purrin. We didn't want to say anything to influence you. ;D
Dude, WTF!@#$%?
Did one of your guys actually give the HD700 a "shit" rating? Is that actually a piece of shit in the rating logo?
http://www.bestheadphonesguide.com/2012/06/hd700-review/ (http://www.bestheadphonesguide.com/2012/06/hd700-review/)
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That is fucking awesome.
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(http://cdn.head-fi.org/0/02/02d9e23b_sunny.jpeg)
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I understand the FR graph so much better now. I think we need that for all headphones!
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DAT TERRAIN.
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Someone needs to post that terrain picture in the HD700 thread without any written explanation.
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WIN!
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Is there a CDS for the HD800?
NM I found it!
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Just tried Grados... Holy crap! The HD700 is the Cyber-Grado! Just like Mav said.
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My apologies for necro-posting (mods please let me know if it's acceptable or not), but now that Anax is up to 3.0 for his HD800 mods, is the HD700 mod-able and salvageable? Anax, will you attempt to mod the HD700?
Personally for me the size of the HD700 and it's low-profileness actually is aesthetically quite appealing, but I simply can't stand what it produces as it is.
If the HD700 is salvageable though mods, they go reasonably cheap in Japan (2nd hand).
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That is an interesting thought. After the 3.0 is released and I come across a sample that fell off the back of a truck I'd consider it. If the street price were attainable at the $500-$650 mark, I'd consider that a noble endeavor. At that price, a 'fixed' HD700 would be something of a T1 killer.
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This picture belongs in this thread.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=316.0;attach=3140;image)
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Despite the criticism, I went ahead and bought them, just like that (I'm such a rebel sometimes, although a rebel with a special -100 euros offer I must say). Well I couldn't believe my ears. So far, out of my ageing DA11 it's just crap for the price (Anedio U2, Amarra). I, too, don't find them much more detailed than my HD650 if at all, the timbre accuracy sucks big time, the 6000 hz peak is unbearable and despite cleaner I find the bass to sound "paperish" (my apologies for the very non-specific 6moons style expression, I couldn't find any better before having my morning coffee). I'll wait a bit to try it on other sources / amp combination in case of an improbable bad match with the Lavry, or an improbable massive change with burn-in or positioning, but I don't set my hopes very high.
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Searching for special synergy for the HD700 is a basic violation of one of it's supposed strengths. Ease of being driven by just about anything.
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Searching for special synergy for the HD700 is a basic violation of one of it's supposed strengths. Ease of being driven by just about anything.
My thoughts exactly.
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Despite the criticism, I went ahead and bought them, just like that (I'm such a rebel sometimes, although a rebel with a special -100 euros offer I must say). Well I couldn't believe my ears. So far, out of my ageing DA11 it's just crap for the price (Anedio U2, Amarra). I, too, don't find them much more detailed than my HD650 if at all, the timbre accuracy sucks big time, the 6000 hz peak is unbearable and despite cleaner I find the bass to sound "paperish" (my apologies for the very non-specific 6moons style expression, I couldn't find any better before having my morning coffee). I'll wait a bit to try it on other sources / amp combination in case of an improbable bad match with the Lavry, or an improbable massive change with burn-in or positioning, but I don't set my hopes very high.
Sell the HD700, sell the Anedio U2, buy yourself an HD800 and some foam walk the plank
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Already have it. For the story : I was trying to find something a bit better than my HD650, but easily drivable with the Lavry only for on the move listening sessions (the integrated amp isn't spectacular at all with the HD800). The USB implementation isn't spectacular either, so I'll keep the Anedio until I replace the whole DAC. And most likely return the poo.
Quite interestingly, at least to me, I found that its sound changes a lot more than other headphones I've tried when pressing or depressing the cups against my head. Possibly the result of its wild frequency response curve (lots of ups and down) ? I remember something of the sort when I tried the DT1350.
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So I'm one of those that aren't bleeding at the ears when it comes to the 6KHz peak. In fact, I've listened to all the tracks that were mentioned by folks as causing them to immediately take them off and I can't hear anything overtly or excruciatingly uncomfortable. (It's probably likely that my hearing is shit too, I'll give that theory a chance to prove itself over time!)
What I'm using them for & with (casual listening streaming via MOG or rdio in an office environment with zero cubicles/open floor concept where everyone's babbling), connected to a Dragonfly (thx Questhate!) and my MBP, they're a little fatiguing after about 2 hrs straight (the clamping force becomes a little tiring). But I don't have that desire to put them down like the rest of you guys.
Anax, do you believe any of your mods to the HD800 would alleviate some of the issues you guys measured?
MayaTlab: They don't sound anything like the HD650s to me. It's the same with HD800 and HD650. Comparisons are pointless as they are voiced and built with totally different materials and specs. The HD650 is an enjoyable headphone though and pretty darn comfy. Not sure what you were hoping for with the HD700s. The Lavry isn't a romantic sounding DAC either.
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I was just hoping for an easily drivable middle ground between the 650 and 800, both from a technical perspective and a "tone" one, as some people reported. I didn't find it to be the case. Yeah, the Lavry isn't very musical, but I'm having even more trouble listening to the HD700 with it than HD800 - which makes the purchase pointless indeed.
Interestingly, mine seem not to clamp my head at all, they just "drop" on the sides of my head, and would easily fall off like the HD800 do when I bang my head around a little too much. When I press the earcups, I find the sound to improve a bit, so I'll try to see what I can do in this area.
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About a 1/2 year ago when we had just finished the mix of the audiophile recording ''Torn" by Carmen Gomes inc.,I took a copy of the mix with me to the RAF high end store here in Amsterdam.
They had the HD700 and the HD800 on display.I was curious as to how the mix,done on the Grimm LS 1 speakers,would translate to high end Headphones.
I must say that I was impressed!
At Sound Liaison we like a a clear placement of the instruments,really trying to make the band almost visual,and with a lot of depth and spaciousness in the sound stage.
Of the difference of the two...
I found the HD 800 absolutely fantastic for the quiet tunes,i.e.''Love in Vain'' and the version of ''Let´s go get Stoned'' with the beautiful double bass introduction.
But the last 2 tunes of the album,the louder tunes,Tom Waits "Train song'' with a slightly distorted slide guitar solo,and the version of B.B.Kings ''the Thrill is Gone ''´with the laid back 2nd line drum groove I really liked the HD 700,maybe even preferring it to the HD800.
But if I had to choose, I would go for the HD800.It really gives me the same sense of space and depth that I hear on our High End Grimm speakers,translate the sound we had in mind really well.
But maybe If you listen mostly to music with a heavy back beat,the 700 will do a great job.
But all in all fantastic Headphones.
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Shared impressions of the HD800 don't count unless you mention their upstream components.