CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: cspirou on September 22, 2015, 11:52:33 AM
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At what point does spending more on an amp then on headphones make sense? If you have $500 to spend it seems pretty obvious to buy an HD600 + FIIO instead of a Lyr2 + Apple earphone. However as you scale up, the amps easily outpace headphones on price. TOTL amps from Headamp, Woo and TTVJ basically have 1 or 2 headphones that come close in price.
Yet what I constantly read is that most of your money should go into headphones and then consider an amp afterwards. Is this advice only for beginners?
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There are also people spending more on their headphone cables then the actual headphones themselves.
Yes, the advice works quite well for lower budgets IMO.
It also depends on the gear itself.
Buy a crappy headphone and no amp will be able to make it shine regardless how much money you throw at it.
You should audition headphones (if possible) with familiar music and buy the best sounding one to YOUR ears is comfortable to YOU and is within your budget.
Then buy a Magni and you're set.
After a while you get the 'upgrade fever' or read that X is sooo much better than what you have and you're done for... :-\
Good sound doesn't have to be expensive.... then the law of diminshing returns kicks in depending on the budget.
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As what Solderdude said, it depends on the gear.
The rule of thumb for spending less on an amp than headphones is just that--a rule. As with any rule, there's exceptions, and the HD600 you happened to use as an example is one such exception, because it's widely acknowledged as a headphone that scales very well with upstream gear.
Besides, you might have a $500 budget now, so you buy a good headphone that scales + a passable amp now. But in the future, won't you have more disposable income, not less? And what if you acquire more headphones that have different amp requirements (e.g. planars and dynamics); won't you need an amp that is capable of driving all these different loads well?
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Find the right transducer for you. Then start building a system around it.
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Go to a meet if you can and listen to various headphones on various setups.
Buy a headphone. Build system around headphone. You may need to run the headphone from a less ideal setup for a while until you can get what you really want.
Some headphones don't cost a whole lot relatively, like the HD600/650, but will keep scaling the better food you feed them. It's not their fault they're a good deal and like nice amps that tend to cost more money.
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For those just starting in the hobby, I tell them to spend to the 1:2:3 ratio, for dac:amp:transducer respectively.
After that, you're into crazytown and all bets are off.
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Find the right transducer for you. Then start building a system around it.
+10
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While I agree with prioritizing the funds toward DAC, amp, transducers
am less a fan of specific ratios.
Spent $900 on used HD800, and $1150 on Black Widow.
Not a bad pairing for not following a "formula".
:)p4
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Find the right transducer for you. Then start building a system around it.
Yeah, this is the best way to go. Eventually you'll end up like us, in crazy town, but if you legitimately enjoy listening to music through your system then everything (except your wallet) is fine.
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Find the right transducer for you. Then start building a system around it.
Boom.
Problem is, amps just cost more than headphones to produce. It might be that you can spend more on a headphone than the amp, but it's only because headphones are fundamentally over-priced at the moment. I'd say amp$=headphonex2$ is a more realistic ratio for now.
But getting the right headphone for you (maybe with an O2 as a starter amp until you figure out what you want there) is the place to start.
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Find the right transducer for you. Then start building a system around it.
Definitely.. and forget such thing as "best headphone of the world" .. that does not exist.
There's only "personal preferred headphone for me and the music/recordings I listen to" . understanding there's no "world champion" headphone is the best way to enjoy happily this hobby .
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To me, you will always spend more on an amp/dac combo. I feel like you would want to spend more on the endgame amp/dac because with headphones you are more than likely to purchase these on a more regular basis than a new amp dac. Unless you are sticking to budget or low fi then you will be buying new stuff all the time.
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It might be that you can spend more on a headphone than the amp, but it's only because headphones are fundamentally over-priced at the moment.
I think thats a very interesting statement to hear from you. Could you elaborate a little bit?
Do you have specific models in mind (the Abysses, LCD3's and Pioneer Master1's etc.)?
Do you have a general pricepoint in mind above which you find a headphone a tough sell? 500$ used to be that 10 years ago, then it was 1000$, now I dont even know anymore...
Does your wording "at the moment" imply faith in a change of course in the future, where established headphone manufacturers (AKG, Beyer, Senn, AT, Sony etc.) start producing flagships <900$? If so, why? I am very disappointed with the way the market has evolved with regards to pricing in the last 10 years (I do own a Senn HD600, that should tell you where I'm coming from) but with the influx uf wealthy Russians, Arabs and Chinese buyers into the market I dont see it stopping anytime soon. Why would Sennheiser develop a proper HD650 successor with the best sound they could possibly put into a 500$ package and sell that to Europeans/Americans when they might as well produce a 3000$ unit with the same sound quality and sell to people for whom even that amount warrants no overnight consideration?
Also feel free not to answer at all or safe your thoughts for an opinion piece on innerfidelity ;)
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Why would Sennheiser develop a proper HD650 successor with the best sound they could possibly put into a 500$ package and sell that to Europeans/Americans when they might as well produce a 3000$ unit with the same sound quality and sell to people for whom even that amount warrants no overnight consideration?
Because there's 10,000 times more people willing to shell out $500 than $3000 for a pair of headphones. And similarly 10,000x more people willing to shell out $100 than $500. Assuming general population gets a glimpse of good sound and like it (may be a tall order, but more and more likely all the time with headphones) they'll spend as much on headphones as a good pair of shoes or handbag. Common prices there hoover around $100-$300. If the public demand gets high enough, competitive price pressures should lower prices/improve quality.
Ultra-high-end headphones? Many audiophiles have been taking it in the ass and loving it for years, that won't stop. The hype train ain't going to derail any time soon.
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I should add that I don't see any reason why a $500 headphone can't sound as good as a $5000 headphone in principle.
It's just two small drivers and a bit of plastic/metal. Once you get it down pat how expensive can it really be?
Additional price drivers will be cosmetics, etc.
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Ultra-high-end headphones? Many audiophiles have been taking it in the ass and loving it for years, that won't stop. The hype train ain't going to derail any time soon.
This sounds like a good editor's note to put at the end of my upcoming Big Sound report. :)p13
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But getting the right headphone for you (maybe with an O2 as a starter amp until you figure out what you want there) is the place to start.
Pretty much this
The O2 is a very very good amp to use when trying to find your "one", to make sure the upstream equipment isn't interfering with the experience; IME the O2 is very very well behaved with a large variety of loads and it's also dirt cheap, even if it isn't capable of getting something to it's best it'll still be listenable
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It should be noted that price for these TOTL headphones is usually not based on manufacturing cost, it's based on market forces. They will charge what they think they can get for it, and the market is not competitive at all. That's why you have stupid HE1K and Abyss pricing.
Anyone involved in the HE1K beta or even an owner of the production model knows that it doesn't even cost a few hundred to manufacture that thing with the peeling veneer and chrome plated plastic.
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Ultra-high-end headphones? Many audiophiles have been taking it in the ass and loving it for years, that won't stop. The hype train ain't going to derail any time soon.
I am so glad I have been wearing my ASStity belt for years :) :)
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Well originally I spent $800 on a used HD800 after hearing what it could do when paired well. I had no problem justifying spending $1300 on the very amp (Super7) that gave me that impression as the MSRP for an 800 was $1400 bucks or so. Problem is, the HD800 kept scaling. The better the front ends got, the better the HD800 kept pace. With pretty much 99% of the phones out there, I don't find this to be so much the case. I now use an amp where just two of the transformers cost as much as the headphones MSRP. It is frikin' nutz. However, awesome transformers cost a lot in just raw materials and labor, plus they are scarce these days (the people who mastered making them are just dying from old age). I still don't know where the HD800 stops scaling and in that sense one could call them a relative bargain in the audio world.
You need to find your own values and goals, then decide for yourself. Decide what kind of listener you are first.
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Pretty much this
The O2 is a very very good amp to use when trying to find your "one", to make sure the upstream equipment isn't interfering with the experience; IME the O2 is very very well behaved with a large variety of loads and it's also dirt cheap, even if it isn't capable of getting something to it's best it'll still be listenable
To put my below comments in perspective, I have had a self built O2 sitting on my bedside table for years now (to which I later added agdr's booster circuit and the recommended lme49990's in the gain stage) - so I have a fair appreciation for what the O2 can do... I think it is an amp worth owning (and definitely worth building as a diy instruction method) for many headphone enthusiasts given the price and transportability. That said, I can't agree with the proposition that it is the right amp to use to sample various headphones and select your preferred transducers.
To me, the O2 simply sounds lousy with Senn hd650's and hd800's (my two favorites in my collection), compared to how it sound with, for example, fostex mods or even dt880 250 ohm's. The O2 actually focuses the sort of diffuse signature of the dt880's in a way that works well for me. Whereas it collapses the already coherent sound of the Senn's into something compressed, disinteresting and thin, at least as I hear it. I would have sold my Senn's and never looked back if this was what I used to evaluate them.
I don't know whether this is a ~1ohm output impedance issue, a global negative feedback/non-linear distortion issue, or something else entirely, but the headphone outs on either of my HTR's (5 year old Marantz or super basic 15 year old HTiB Yammy) seem to me to give a more even handed presentation to all of my headphones across the board for evaluation purposes. Add a good low'ish impedance transformer coupled tube amp to the equation, and the Senns are suddenly in another league from the others, as I hear them.
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Why would Sennheiser develop a proper HD650 successor with the best sound they could possibly put into a 500$ package and sell that to Europeans/Americans when they might as well produce a 3000$ unit with the same sound quality and sell to people for whom even that amount warrants no overnight consideration?
Because they are Sennheiser and not Stax. I mean if to get into the audiophile game you needed a minimum of say $5,000 that would be such a turn off for most people I think. With the economy of scale you buy a $3,000 pair of headphones how much you think an amp and dac are going to cost?
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I should add that I don't see any reason why a $500 headphone can't sound as good as a $5000 headphone in principle.
It's just two small drivers and a bit of plastic/metal. Once you get it down pat how expensive can it really be?
Additional price drivers will be cosmetics, etc.
Agreed. You can always be like the legend Bob Katz and use the EQ to help with the perfect set of headphones for the perfect listening experience (I mean ultimately that is what it's for right?)(obviously subjectively speaking here).
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Easy as hell. Headphones pretty much do stop at about $500 (HD 600/650 and the Paradox) with regards to overall tonality. Most of the $1000+ flagships are actually worse in many ways despite being better in other. If you're a consumer who just wants to take it out of the box, plug it into an amp and rock you don't want to worry about shoddy quality control, hot treble, wonky mids, or offensive resonances that need modding to go away it's very hard to really recommend most of the more expensive headphones. People shouldn't have to heavily equalize or have upstream gear that smooths out the high end just because a headphone was voiced by someone with high frequency hearing loss to have treble that sounds sparkly and detailed for ten minutes in the store but is painful for two hours of listening to well produced recordings at 80-90 decibels. The sparkly treble spikes of false detail lovers should be force stand next to a snare drum being bashed with ear horns.
Add to that the perpetual fuck up overpriced "TOTL" manufacturers like Audeze, John Grado, Harman, and Beyerdynamic. Beyerdynamic has been falling down the stairs for decades. The DT 880 can't even stand with the HD 600. It's not a HD 580 competitor; it's a god damn HD 540 one. Beyer doesn't really have anything better as they've spent the past 30 years biting on cyanide capsules and shooting themselves repeatedly in the face.
So yeah very easy to spend more on DACs and amps than on a pair of HD 6XX/800 cans. You can even do it with STAX electrostats very easily.
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So the general feel I am getting is that while you can get a good amp for not a lot of money, squeezing the last 0.001% out of an amp is going to cost more then squeezing 0.001% out of headphones. Which makes sense to me because amps can have additional components like voltage regulators, constant current sources, balanced operation, etc. Headphones don't really get more components as they improve, it's more of a refinement process.
I should add that I don't see any reason why a $500 headphone can't sound as good as a $5000 headphone in principle.
It's just two small drivers and a bit of plastic/metal. Once you get it down pat how expensive can it really be?
Additional price drivers will be cosmetics, etc.
That reminds me of Sony Playstation 1 and its reputation as an audiophile CD player. When it was new the Playstation was relatively cheap at $250 and sold 250 million units. With those kind of numbers, Sony can afford to put more engineering in their CD player than the typical audio company and get something that performs well. If Sennheiser could sell 10 million I am sure the HD 650 can drop to a sub-$200 price.
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That reminds me of Sony Playstation 1 and its reputation as an audiophile CD player.
Hasn't this been thoroughly debunked over the years?
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Hasn't this been thoroughly debunked over the years?
Yup. Trusted ears and gears found it measured and sounded worse than the hype. My 'theory' was that because it was warm sounding, it made those early lean and analytical CD's sound 'better' or more 'natural'. I never found any talking about super precise the imaging was or how it was hyper clear and transparent. Nope.
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Definitely.. and forget such thing as "best headphone of the world" .. that does not exist.
There's only "personal preferred headphone for me and the music/recordings I listen to" . understanding there's no "world champion" headphone is the best way to enjoy happily this hobby .
Too bad Music Alchemist won't accept this...
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Because there's 10,000 times more people willing to shell out $500 than $3000 for a pair of headphones. And similarly 10,000x more people willing to shell out $100 than $500. Assuming general population gets a glimpse of good sound and like it (may be a tall order, but more and more likely all the time with headphones) they'll spend as much on headphones as a good pair of shoes or handbag. Common prices there hoover around $100-$300. If the public demand gets high enough, competitive price pressures should lower prices/improve quality.
Your thinking is very reasonable on this point and I'd like to agree with you. If I remember correctly you posted something along those lines on Innerfidelity a while ago: About the Beats-craze being ultimately beneficial to high-fidelity audio because it got masses of people interested in headphones and willing to spend money on them. Sort of like an entry drug. I can see that, but I'm also sceptical: The reasons people buy Beats are often speculated upon, but they seem to be mostly a mixture of 1.) celebrity branding, 2.) fashion statement (if all the cool kids have it, who are you to walk around with a bland ol'Senn?) 3.) the 'idea of BASS'. Neither of those make it seem likely that the Beats demographic will in numbers upgrade to AKG K7** or Senn HD6** or what have you. In fact I would argue that the very product strategies we have seen from AKG and Sennheiser in the last years indicated their own market research and thinking on the subject: Build good (but not excellent) portable phones that are very fashionable to look at and come with a somewhat pronounced bass response as direct competitors or logical upgrades to the Beats lineup, sometimes with celebrity branding (AKG with all their Tiesto, Quincy Jones etc lines; Sennheiser with their horribly mistaken Adidas branding), sometimes without. None of this competitive focus has however extended to the open circumaural home headphone segment - the traditional concern of audiophiles. If established headphone manufacturers with market and demographics research departements and all that business stuff thought there were a lot of Beats-buyers out there that can be converted to hifi sound at home, surely we would see them release a number of products designed for just such a person: A well designed (both with regards to sound quality and to styling) open-back headphone for home use not more expensive than 500$. So let's see what the big names of the industry have to offer:
Sennheiser: If Sennheiser believed all those Beats buyers were actually audiophiles in the making surely they would have released great new "mid-fi" products to replace the amazing but long-in-the-tooth HD600 and HD650. Alas they did not: The HD700 is considerably more expensive and tuned quite... peculiarly, and the HD800 is >1000$. 0 interesting products for our hypothetical Beats convert interested in the best possible sound out of an open circumaural headphone for home at 500$.
AKG - It only looks a little brighter for AKG whose modus operandi has been the continued rehashing of the K7**-line - and the introduction of the even more retardedly (compared to the HD800) priced K812. Still they seem to be the only company actively trying to gain favor with the Beats crowd by aggressively adopting celebrity branding (Q701) and Beats-inspired-styling (N90Q). Lets see how that works for them.
Beyerdynamic? - Their home offerings consist of the T90 (obviously not targeted at Beats-converts, either with regards to styling nor to sound tuning) and the T1 (>800$). A true successor to the DT880 is still missing. 0 interesting products for our hypothetical Beats convert interested in the best possible sound out of an open circumaural headphone for home at 500$.
Ultrasone? - Not that they have ever been that great, but they have seemingly completely abandoned the open headphone market, going for ever more expensive, luxurious and bad sounding closed portable headphones (The Edition series, the Performance series etc.).
Grado? - Give me a break. You'd have to go back to the last century if you wanted to find any noteworthy change in their product design. And selling their products to Beats-converts is lets just say a challenging proposition. 0 interesting products for our hypothetical Beats convert interested in the best possible sound out of an open circumaural headphone for home at 500$.
Sony? - Was the SA5000 actually the last open headphone they built?!!! Their product lineup is very mobile-centric as well, with the Z7 being the sole exception. And while I enjoy the Z7 a lot it is clearly not pushing the boundaries of technical proficiency but is still way outside the budget for our hypothetical Beats convert. 0 interesting products for our hypothetical Beats convert interested in the best possible sound out of an open circumaural headphone for home at 500$.
Audio Technica? - Same old same old. Fancy closed woodies for the audiophiles with lots of disposable income, closed portable cans for the rest. Oh and gaming headsets. Thats new... They have the open-back AD-lineup which is said to be reasonably good. I dont know how long ago those were last updated, clearly they are not a point of focus for the company.
Pioneer? - Lots of crappy closed portable and "DJ"-headphones. And the open flagship SE-Master1 for >2500$! 0 interesting products for our hypothetical Beats convert interested in the best possible sound out of an open circumaural headphone for home at 500$.
Audeze? - Well the open-back EL-8 might qualify. Its a new design, open-back, with a focus on styling and elegance. But at 700$ its also quite steep for our hypothetical Beats convert.
Hifiman? - The 400i checks all the boxes (open-back, price range, focus on sound quality), but I dont get the feeling that it's been designed to win favor with the Beats-crowd.
Oppo? - In the same boat as Audeze: The PM2 would qualify in every respect except that the price is a bit too steep.
Philips - Well, hey now there is something! The Fidelio line is well designed both with regard to sound-quality and styling and fits into our desired price point! Yay for Philips!
Did I forget any noteworthy manufacturers?... Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is clear:
If headphone manufacturers (especially the big ones with departements doing market research etc) really thought that the Beats customers were audiophiles in the making ready and willing to be converted to high-quality open-back home headphones, surely we would see a lot of activity in that product segment. The exact opposite is the case. For people looking so get the best sound out of an open-back headphone for home use the options today are the same as they were 10 years ago: The Sennheiser HD600/650, the AKG K701 or the Beyerdynamic DT880(/T90). On the other hand we see tons of fashionable closed sets for portable use with mediocre to good soundquality: It seems to me that the manufacturers themselves have quite clear a perspective on the Beats-crowd. Judging from their product launches and development focus in the last 5 years only Philips seems to be interested in building fresh products for home use not over 500$. Let's pray to god their efforts pay off and other manufacturers follow suit.
Instead I feel like the manufacturers have adopted the following strategy:
Release great sounding and technically proficient headphones for audiophiles at retarded prices (>1000$) and use a tiny little bit of trickle down technology to build numerous stylish closed and portable headphones to compete with Beats headphones. The 200-600$ home hifi market - formerly the place where flagships lived - seems to have been largely abandoned. Oh... I do hope that I'm wrong and you're right, Tyll...
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For those just starting in the hobby, I tell them to spend to the 1:2:3 ratio, for dac:amp:transducer respectively.
Not picking on you specifically, Armaegis, but these ratios are precisely the source of all bullshit markups. It's a great sales tactic to propose a ratio to someone - "you'd spend a thousand dollars on a headphone, why skimp on the cables [even if the differences are minor, not at all guaranteed and quite possibly illusory]?" Likewise for DACs/amps, the mantra of "source first", "crap in - crap out", and so on. Surely even Tyll would agree that choosing to offer headphone amplifiers greatly enhanced his business and lessened his reliance on outside distributors.
Alternately, when you attend meets or conventions/trade shows, consider that the cost of displaying products is split by the distributors/manufacturers, so of course you'd want an amplifier or cable company which makes products in a similar price bracket to your headphones/speakers - they could afford to pitch in more. After all, if you sell someone on your headphone it costs you nothing to put a good word in for your business associate. Also if someone doesn't happen to like the sound then you can always blame it on the partnering gear - "oh, that's because that was our first time teaming up with this DAC manufacturer and we didn't know that our products were an unsynergistic match, come buy and listen to our booth now that MSB brought out the bigguns!"
Some people are also simply obsessed with power. Bigger is better for them whether you're talking about amps, cars or guns. Don't forget geeks who are enamored by exotic technology and gladly pay extra for interesting designs endorsed by engineering gurus. All the while those gurus themselves are thankful for the chance to build outrageously uneconomical designs because of such demand. I know that if I was making products that an elegant or aesthetic design would be way more fun to work on than a budget one. Then again I also wouldn't necessarily offer the most neutral opinion on which product to go for in my lineup.
So yeah, I'm more cynical about the profit motive / gadget fetish side of things than even the objective/subjective differences. Not sure how this translates into viable advice though, since audiophilia is a very pleasant affliction for many. Follow your heart while being mindful of your wallet, or some shit.
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None of this competitive focus has however extended to the open circumaural home headphone segment - the traditional concern of audiophiles. If established headphone manufacturers with market and demographics research departements and all that business stuff thought there were a lot of Beats-buyers out there that can be converted to hifi sound at home, surely we would see them release a number of products designed for just such a person: A well designed (both with regards to sound quality and to styling) open-back headphone for home use not more expensive than 500$.
People buy Beats because they have a lot of bass, active noise cancellation, and they are easily recognizable brands, much like Nike or Adidas. They are hugely fashion/wealth statements. I don't see why someone who purchases Beats would think about looking at an open headphone because that's not conducive to a major reason as to why they're buying Beats in the first place. Same goes with why people buy Bose. I've had a few friends come over and try out my open backed headphones, they don't dig them at all. They don't want people to hear what they're listening to. They want something portable and fashionable. Designing an open backed headphone for the Beats market just doesn't make a bit of sense, they don't want an open headphone.
Unless I'm completely mistaking what you're trying to say.
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People buy Beats because they have a lot of bass, ... and they are easily recognizable brands, much like Nike or Adidas. They are hugely fashion/wealth statements.
Pretty much this. Kids who get Beats don't listen to High Fidelity music. They WEAR them so they can be seen as having them.
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The question I've had for years is: why is the ~$300 closed segment such a black hole? Maybe it's a golden age compared with the bad old days, but what a pile of ultimately "A for effort" products. I end up having to tell new audiophiles to buy IEMs instead.
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Pretty much this. Kids who get Beats don't listen to High Fidelity music. They WEAR them so they can be seen as having them.
Agreed, just made this point that Beats didn't push audiophiles forward instead these are just a fashion statement at this point.
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People buy Beats because they have a lot of bass, active noise cancellation, and they are easily recognizable brands, much like Nike or Adidas. They are hugely fashion/wealth statements. I don't see why someone who purchases Beats would think about looking at an open headphone because that's not conducive to a major reason as to why they're buying Beats in the first place. Same goes with why people buy Bose. I've had a few friends come over and try out my open backed headphones, they don't dig them at all. They don't want people to hear what they're listening to. They want something portable and fashionable. Designing an open backed headphone for the Beats market just doesn't make a bit of sense, they don't want an open headphone.
Unless I'm completely mistaking what you're trying to say.
It seems to me that bass has become the very standard to judge if a popular headphone is good. A good friend of mine has been a Beats and bass lover - the more the better. He thought V-Moda M80 was OK; Noble 4 was anemic; DT880/600 an absolute failure - by far he only recognize TH900 as supeior to his Beats.
And just last Saturday I overheard a senior Beats salesman tutoring a new one in Best Buy - basically the points are exactly what you've said. Dat bass, ANC, fashion, celebrities, herd mentality, it's an Apple thing. I didn't hear a word of fidelity or sound reproduction - they seem to take pride to beef up bass by all means. While the newer Beats line were actually surprisingly OK sounding to my ears, the language of sales made me dislike Beats the brand.
Otherwise, the majority of people with whom I've discussed the fidelity of sound - just don't care fidelity. They tend to think "well lots of people are buying Bose/Beats so they must be good" or "you're too professional, we layman just want something good-looking".
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The question I've had for years is: why is the ~$300 closed segment such a black hole? Maybe it's a golden age compared with the bad old days, but what a pile of ultimately "A for effort" products. I end up having to tell new audiophiles to buy IEMs instead.
This isn't just me then. :\
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Not picking on you specifically, Armaegis, but these ratios are precisely the source of all bullshit markups.
I did preface that for someone "just starting" in the hobby. I simply use it as a roundabout way to tell them to spend the majority of their money on the headphone before going nuts with all the amping yadda yadda. I phrase it more in the sense of "don't spend more than" instead of "you must spend up to". It's also easier to convince people when you give them numbers to work with.
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It's also easier to convince people when you give them numbers to work with.
That is 94.7% accurate.
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That is 94.7% accurate.
You can derive better accuracy if you use some regression analysis. It's like feedback for numbers!
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The question I've had for years is: why is the ~$300 closed segment such a black hole? Maybe it's a golden age compared with the bad old days, but what a pile of ultimately "A for effort" products. I end up having to tell new audiophiles to buy IEMs instead.
Because the in this segment the major competitions are Beats&Bose? Their products are just particular prominent here.
I've asked many non-audiophile people what's their upper spending cap for a pair of quality headphones, and the answers invariably fell within $100~150, unless it's a Beats/Bose. Then I ask why 100~150 for non Beats/Bose, then the answers were also similar - under 150, there are more visible options in major electronic stores and streets. Aside from high-profile celebrity headphones such as Skullcandy and alike, AT M50 has a good reputation; Sennheiser/AKG are big names in professional stuff so their offerings should not be too bad; Sony is also big so their cans should not be a bad buy.
But things get complicated when passing the $150 mark - the people I talked with, they either don't know any "audiophile" brands, and/or they think Beats/Bose understand the consumers' needs (not necessarily sonic needs) better. It also seemed to me they think when things go past 150, they think there's no improvement in sound, or they think the sonic improvement is so marginal it's not worth the investment. However, the design and branding of Beats/Bose are worth the extra money. In terms of branding, Senn/AKG/old Sony have already established themselves as pro/audiophile/niche-oriented. OTOH, it's Beats/Bose who started all the fever branding headphones as a must-own by the young, an icon of music taste.
Another of my friends actually had a very good point - she said, "Look at you. You started with a pair of good cans. Then you wanted better cans. Then you realize your source is not good, so you go for a DAP. Then you want a better DAP. Later you get to know it's masters that all matter, then you go for good recordings like crazy. Then you 'accidently' get a pair of 'hard to drive cans' then you go for an amp. Yet you're still far down the food chain. Look how deep in this shithole you are. People like you and me who really dig things will inevitably go the same route, and the endless cost of this road is the very reason preventing them going into good sound."
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The people I've met are totally willing to spend more, say $300, because people do want better sound. And they seem to know instinctively that they're suckers if they buy beats like sheep. But I was talking about us: all these new closed phones (HP50, FSP, PM3) are for a different sort of sucker. It's the same problem for both groups. The industry is improving, but not fast enough for me to be willing to blow audiophilia's reputation with new people by recommending problematic so-so gear. At that price, anyone can buy a quite good IEM instead.
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The question I've had for years is: why is the ~$300 closed segment such a black hole? Maybe it's a golden age compared with the bad old days, but what a pile of ultimately "A for effort" products. I end up having to tell new audiophiles to buy IEMs instead.
I' think because the average consumer of such headphones will use it on-the-go ... then Companies are more focused about the design, the brand visibility on the cups or such other point non SQ related. Sound is average and designed for average consumer. Nothing really audiophile.
I disagree a bit for FSP though. Yes the build is definitely shitty but the sound is very good IMO.
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Even the "upgrading from Beats" crowd you see on Reddit is hilarious. The amount of people that buy ATH-M40/50x over Sennheiser 558/598 despite one sounding like a flabby Nerf cannon and the other sounding fairly acceptable. People don't care about sound quality, they won't even shell out for an indestructible (unless you pull the cable out) HD 25 that will last twice as long. The amount of V6/7506 I see despite legitimately sounding like holding tin cans with string up to your ears and with some asshole bashing them with a tuning fork every time a cymbal or snare plays. These kids don't listen to fucking instruments, they crank distorted synthesized bass mixed with highly clipped snare samples some asshole mixed and mastered on MacBook speakers; not even a pair of NS10s with toilet paper in a basement anymore. Clipped rap "claps" on the 7506 must be horrible. They want headphones that match their neon wifebeaters, not headphones with good sound.
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a snare drum being bashed with ear horns.
I love that mental picture! :)p13
Easy as hell. Headphones pretty much do stop at about $500 (HD 600/650 and the Paradox) with regards to overall tonality. Most of the $1000+ flagships are actually worse in many ways despite being better in other. If you're a consumer who just wants to take it out of the box, plug it into an amp and rock you don't want to worry about shoddy quality control, hot treble, wonky mids, or offensive resonances that need modding to go away it's very hard to really recommend most of the more expensive headphones. People shouldn't have to heavily equalize or have upstream gear that smooths out the high end just because a headphone was voiced by someone with high frequency hearing loss to have treble that sounds sparkly and detailed for ten minutes in the store but is painful for two hours of listening to well produced recordings at 80-90 decibels. The sparkly treble spikes of false detail lovers should be force stand next to a snare drum being bashed with ear horns.
I am the consumer you speak of, and I agree entirely. Respect to those who listen and mod, and extra respect to those who listen, measure and mod, but I'm probably not going to go there. But what Changstar has done for me (even though there is plenty of love for certain expensive items) is to curb a lot of my drooling over the well-known hype-train items. Thanks guys: I'm saving a lot of saliva :)p7
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When I had the AKG K240DF and K500 there was a moment when I had a Sony CD1700. Shortly after that I auditioned a stock HD800 during the Berlin HF-meet.
I did not see the point of the HD800 or T1 for that matter. It was after the Berlin HF-meet that I started thinking "should I upgrade?" Back then I also still had the Pioneer Monitor 10 and I thought "no." For me the small differences were not worth it. I discussed this topic with Solderdude and we both agreed that if you know what has been before, some headphones that are new are not worth it.
Thing is some headphones are very component sensitive so the signal chain in your audio set-up has to work out. Some new headphones are worth it but I am sceptical until the people I trust tell me the right things. Then I might audition or buy.
I think there is no shame spending more on a amplifier than on headphones. Buy a Koss KSC-75, modify it and add a CMoy, done.
Because the KSC-75 exists, well you must spend more on other gear.
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........But what Changstar has done for me (even though there is plenty of love for certain expensive items) is to curb a lot of my drooling over the well-known hype-train items.....
True dat....... Was briefly tempted to chase the Beyer DT880 and then got a reality check with OJ's flowchart.... Mid if purgatory
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True dat....... Was briefly tempted to chase the Beyer DT880 and then got a reality check with OJ's flowchart.... Mid if purgatory
On the other hand where I live you can get a brand-new DT880 for 159$. That's very much 'who cares'-territory. If you're interested in it, if it satisfies your lust for a new gadget, just go for it, even if it's just a sidegrade to what you own already. The problem starts when you have an HD600/650 and start lusting after a PM1 because of some HF hypetrain: 1100$ for sound thats in many ways worse? Now thats where you need some pirate opinions to kill the hype.
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Koloth Don't get me wrong. Beyerdynamic India sells the 880 for the equivalent of USD 400. Even with shipping and customs, it should cost me no more than USD 250. Is it still cheap for me? Yes. But for a person struggling to divide time between the HD800 and the Stax 009, any more purchases really does not make sense, IMO. My limited point is that for me, these reality checks steer me well away from any more HPs. Amps are a different matter :))
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Got it :)p2
Also I didnt wanna come across like an obnoxious ass claiming that 159$ isnt a lot of money. But I feel less angry at a hypetrain for an admittedly great headphone at this price (even if it's just a sidegrade to whatever you currently have) than I do about some FotM HF Hypetrain costing many times more that.
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The DT880/600 + Fiio E17 was my starting setup. I eventually started getting amps that were more expensive than my headphones but once I got to the hd600s + overnight sensations, I started spending way more money on a dac because a dac upgrade meant upgrading both of my systems. Also, Schiit amps are insanely good value. There are way more budget options now in 2015 than when I started this hobby around 2012. A lot of you guys are lucky to have options like the Magni 2, Vali, Modi, Geekout, etc. I didn't have those back then.
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Got it :)p2
Also I didnt wanna come across like an obnoxious ass claiming that 159$ isnt a lot of money. But I feel less angry at a hypetrain for an admittedly great headphone at this price (even if it's just a sidegrade to whatever you currently have) than I do about some FotM HF Hypetrain costing many times more that.
Enlighten your existence with a KSC-75.
When they ask you "What means to happiness have you found?" you can say "It is a Koss, a KSC-75 of humble origins." They look at you and wonder. You continue "It costs less than a M50 and has a better midrange" and you give them a listen. Then they fall on their knees and cry "Oh divine creature from the heavens! Why did we not know better?"
Then you conclude "Oh lost souls now found, consult the digital spirit Google and it will guide you to this humble miracle of affordable good sound. You shall rejoice and find solace in the world of price tags without promise."
Now what remains is to write a Gospel to guide the Hype-Fi sheeple.
P.S. I survived 15 years of church. You can write a Gospel about anything after enough Sundays.
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Koloth: I am the target market of audiophile-bassheads that companies go after.
There are TONS of options. I'm not sure why you limited your thinking to open circumaural; that's not where the bass is it. Open headphones simply cannot reproduce bass impact to basshead levels. You need closed, semi-closed, or in-ear to feel bass.
Sennheiser has their Momentum, Urbanite, DJ, IEM, and 630 VB.
JVC has about 20 different headphones targeted at us. Coincidentally, the #1 headphone for bass (ignoring sound signature) is the JVC SZ2000, which is marketed toward people who love Live Sound, and not any of their headphones with an X in the name (because bassheads must like that letter, especially followed by B).
Sony has an XB line for bass.
Denon nuked the awesome Foster headphones in favor of more stylish/less awesome headphones targeted at basshead-audiophiles.
Audio-Technia has their Solid Bass and DJ lines.
Fostex has the TH600 and TH900 (probably the truest expression of basshead-audiophilia).
Ultrasone has their DJs and Sig Pros.
V-Moda is a brand built around the idea that they make better-than-Beats (they do).
Even Yamaha has a basshead offering.
Pioneer has several offerings, including IEMs that have a bass exciter that actually shake the earphone.
Beyerdynamic has bass ports you can tune up (which unfortunately sacrifice all fidelity if you do so--I hate those things).
I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Many manufacturers are trying to capitalize on people like me. People who love bass but also love faithful musical production other than the skull-crushing bass. They just aren't doing it with open circumaural headphones because open headphones suck at bass. All of them. They can't produce the back pressure necessary to make my ears literally shake.
I'm a little old to have gotten my start with Beats, but I would have been onboard with them if I were a few years younger. Instead, I had mostly Sennheisers for years until companies started to manufacture real basshead-audiophile options.
The only thing that I find tragic from my perspective is the perception that the proper basshead tuning is the V shape. The Fostex TH600/TH900 are perfectly tuned EXCEPT for a couple of treble peaks that cause me fatigue. The JVC HP-DX1000 is almost perfectly tuned full stop. All Audio-Technica basshead cans go too far to treble. Any many manufacturers sacrifice overall fidelity for the sake of bass, which I can't handle anymore.
Anyway, there are many basshead headphones that exist in the higher price segment because of Beats. Thanks to them for that, because now I have options other than a subwoofer that I can no longer use because I have a kid.
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There are TONS of options. I'm not sure why you limited your thinking to open circumaural; that's not where the bass is it. Open headphones simply cannot reproduce bass impact to basshead levels. You need closed, semi-closed, or in-ear to feel bass.
I am in general agreement with this logic. Not so much that the cans need to be overly bassy, but that manufacturers did jump on Beats coattails with lots of option the budding audiophile have embraced. Hell, I bought Amperiors, Momentums, and HP-50s. Not that these were trying to copy Beats per se, but they were going after an audiophile market that might have been a bit more educated about sound than the Beats buyer.
And as far as a black hole in closed cans at $300, I'm quite happy with my Mad Dogs (eq'd), not perfect but what is?
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The problem starts when you have an HD600/650 and start lusting after a PM1 because of some HF hypetrain:
In fact, that is probably where it all started for me! The PM1 hype train. Luckily, though, I jumped off and bought the HD600.
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Koloth: I am the target market of audiophile-bassheads that companies go after.
There are TONS of options. I'm not sure why you limited your thinking to open circumaural; that's not where the bass is it. Open headphones simply cannot reproduce bass impact to basshead levels. You need closed, semi-closed, or in-ear to feel bass.
Sennheiser has their Momentum, Urbanite, DJ, IEM, and 630 VB.
JVC has about 20 different headphones targeted at us. Coincidentally, the #1 headphone for bass (ignoring sound signature) is the JVC SZ2000, which is marketed toward people who love Live Sound, and not any of their headphones with an X in the name (because bassheads must like that letter, especially followed by B).
Sony has an XB line for bass.
Denon nuked the awesome Foster headphones in favor of more stylish/less awesome headphones targeted at basshead-audiophiles.
Audio-Technia has their Solid Bass and DJ lines.
Fostex has the TH600 and TH900 (probably the truest expression of basshead-audiophilia).
Ultrasone has their DJs and Sig Pros.
V-Moda is a brand built around the idea that they make better-than-Beats (they do).
Even Yamaha has a basshead offering.
Pioneer has several offerings, including IEMs that have a bass exciter that actually shake the earphone.
Beyerdynamic has bass ports you can tune up (which unfortunately sacrifice all fidelity if you do so--I hate those things).
I could go on, but I think I've made my point. Many manufacturers are trying to capitalize on people like me. People who love bass but also love faithful musical production other than the skull-crushing bass. They just aren't doing it with open circumaural headphones because open headphones suck at bass. All of them. They can't produce the back pressure necessary to make my ears literally shake.
I'm a little old to have gotten my start with Beats, but I would have been onboard with them if I were a few years younger. Instead, I had mostly Sennheisers for years until companies started to manufacture real basshead-audiophile options.
The only thing that I find tragic from my perspective is the perception that the proper basshead tuning is the V shape. The Fostex TH600/TH900 are perfectly tuned EXCEPT for a couple of treble peaks that cause me fatigue. The JVC HP-DX1000 is almost perfectly tuned full stop. All Audio-Technica basshead cans go too far to treble. Any many manufacturers sacrifice overall fidelity for the sake of bass, which I can't handle anymore.
Anyway, there are many basshead headphones that exist in the higher price segment because of Beats. Thanks to them for that, because now I have options other than a subwoofer that I can no longer use because I have a kid.
Then you have guys like me who realized right away that headphone subbass is not real and demand it be rolled off starting at about 20 hz as it makes my head feel like a punching bag. I also hate what many venue's PA systems turn downtuned guitars, bass guitars, and kick drums into. A heel to toe kick hit should not feel like a boxer punching you in chest; a high gain HM-2 pedal should just sound like a buzzsaw, not feel like your rib cage is being sawed open for open heart surgery. I often have to go to the side of the stage or right up front to get out of the sound path of the techno thumper, "You will lose your hearing even if you're wearing rifle muffs," PA systems.
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I disagree a bit for FSP though. Yes the build is definitely shitty but the sound is very good IMO.
I, too, respect the tuning. But very small earpads + high clamping and it fell apart in my hands within a month. The closed young heroes are more thorn than rose--so far. We've been suckered time again. I tried 25 closed portables before I finally said, "Fuck it! No more. I'll use IEMs."
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I, too, respect the tuning. But very small earpads + high clamping and it fell apart in my hands within a month. The closed young heroes are more thorn than rose--so far. We've been suckered time again. I tried 25 closed portables before I finally said, "Fuck it! No more. I'll use IEMs."
Slightly more OT than we already are: Was one of those 25 closed portables by chance the Shure SRH1540? If so, what were your thoughts on that one?
Koloth: I am the target market of audiophile-bassheads that companies go after. There are TONS of options. I'm not sure why you limited your thinking to open circumaural; that's not where the bass is it. Open headphones simply cannot reproduce bass impact to basshead levels. You need closed, semi-closed, or in-ear to feel bass. [...] They just aren't doing it with open circumaural headphones because open headphones suck at bass. All of them. They can't produce the back pressure necessary to make my ears literally shake. [...] Anyway, there are many basshead headphones that exist in the higher price segment because of Beats. Thanks to them for that, because now I have options other than a subwoofer that I can no longer use because I have a kid.
We're talking past one another. I point out the fact that with the notable exception of the Philips X/L/1/2 phones there have been no new open headphones in the 300-500$ range released in the last 5 years (maybe longer than that even). If you're looking for an audiophile headphone for home use in that price-range you'll today have the same choice you had 10 years ago: Sennheiser HD600/650, AKG K701, Beyerdynamic DT880(/T90) and some Audio Technica ATH-AD.... phones. This is regrettable and indicative of where manufacturers feel the market is: In portable bass-emphasized phones styled to compete with the Beats headphones or to offer an upgrade to the Beats purchasers. You obviously feel quite at home with that kind of product. I'm not sure what your ennumeration is supposed to tell me: I am familiar with the JVC SZ2000, the Sony XB's, the Ultrasones and Yamaha HPH-Pro300/400/500 and the myriad of shitty Pioneer DJ-phones. None of those is what I'm looking for and what I guess the majority of people on Changstar are interested in. You like bass. Fine. I like technically proficient and somewhat-neutral sound reproduction of all frequencies. This none of the products you mentioned come even close to achieving. (And there are usually arguments that closed headphones are in principle inferior to open-back headphones in that regard because of housing resonances, the necessity of making those phones compatible with crapple ishit jack-outputs etc.) You want a subwoofer strapped to the side of your head and therefore you profit from the direction the market has taken in the last years, got it, good for you. The market for high-quality audiophile headphones in general has however not developed nearly as much or nearly as well in the last 10 years. The HD600/650 compete well (or run circles around) ANY new phones released unter 500$ in the last 10 years. That says a lot.
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I like to think in terms of TOTAL SYSTEM. Plan a budget for an entire system.
<$125
100% on headphones.
Use whatever for source/amp.
<$500
50% headphones
50% amp
whatever for source
<$1000
50% headphones
30% amp
20% DAC
<$5000
33% headphones
33% amp
33% source (DAC/TT)
<$15,000
20% (less or more)
40% amp
40% source (DAC/TT)
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I like to think in terms of TOTAL SYSTEM. Plan a budget for an entire system.
<$125
100% on headphones.
Use whatever for source/amp.
<$500
50% headphones
50% amp
whatever for source
<$1000
50% headphones
30% amp
20% DAC
<$5000
33% headphones
33% amp
33% source (DAC/TT)
<$15,000
20% (less or more)
40% amp
40% source (DAC/TT)
This post deserves to be stickied. Then add "This hobby requires you to manage your money wisely."
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I feel that dacs hit the wall of diminishing returns the fastest. It's practically a zero cost for most people as the built-in whatevers of their devices for the most part are "good enough".
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I feel that dacs hit the wall of diminishing returns the fastest. It's practically a zero cost for most people as the built-in whatevers of their devices for the most part are "good enough".
Some people, like me still enjoy a CD with the headphone plugged in to the CD-player. A good black plastic crap with decent DAC and headphone out can be picked up for less than 20 Euros/Dollars in good condition. So yeah...
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C'mon man, minidisc or bust :)p13
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C'mon man, minidisc or bust :)p13
Bust goes to dust. I am talking about the brother of this thingy. I have the 750.
http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/REFERENCES/sony%20cdp-710/sony710.html
http://www.dutchaudioclassics.nl/Overview-Philips-TDA1541-based-cdplayers/
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Ah, see I thought you were talking about this kind of thing...
(http://media.engadget.com/img/products/445/9jn5/9jn5-800.jpg)
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Slightly more OT than we already are: Was one of those 25 closed portables by chance the Shure SRH1540? If so, what were your thoughts on that one?
OT? There was a T? Anyhoo, I didn't buy the 1540 because it didn't seem portable and costs twice as much as the others. In that case, I might as well wear my Paradox to work.
The best of the lot was TBSE1 (a.k.a. ProDJ100) with pad swapping and light mods. Austin's modded MDR-1R, which I heard later, was a little better overall.
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Usually speakers/headphones first and then amp. I kinda put source just as important as picking headphone/speakers as well. Good resolving speakers/headphones are more source picky then so much compared to amp picky. So me headphones/speakers>source>amp in roughly that fashion...
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Apart from the Stax, KGSSHV and Yggy total system configuration that I have, every other configuration has Yggy as the most expensive individual item (or roughly equal to the amp in case of the ZDS) in the chain.
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Even the "upgrading from Beats" crowd you see on Reddit is hilarious...The amount of V6/7506 I see despite legitimately sounding like holding tin cans with string up to your ears and with some asshole bashing them with a tuning fork every time a cymbal or snare plays.
For headphone, upgrading from a V6 to my AD700, was my "...and the curtains of Heaven parted, letting the Light descend unto my eardrums." Coming from cheap IEMs, the V6's seemed pretty good. At the time, my issue with them was they made my ears unbearably warm. So I went open-backed and bought the AD700's after reading reviews describing huge sound stage (+++), accurate position (+++), and matching classical (+). Played the first track of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto's; truly like night and day. The V6 sound was so harsh and metallic. It's amazing what the brain can do without suitable reference points. As of right now, the HE560s did not do the same thing for me. Maybe this is because the V6's were so bad, and the AD700's were pretty good.
I like to think in terms of TOTAL SYSTEM. Plan a budget for an entire system.
<$1000
...
<$5000
...
<$15,000
Those are some pretty distant break points...Gumby sort of breaks my ratio to pieces. :)p1
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Apart from the Stax, KGSSHV and Yggy total system configuration that I have, every other configuration has Yggy as the most expensive individual item (or roughly equal to the amp in case of the ZDS) in the chain.
I suppose that depends on how you define 'every other'. I know that's not true in my case or anyone who ordered a Studio or Teton/Pinnacle, WA5, LAu, others. I wish my amp cost as much as an Yggy, holy schiit!
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I should have typed "every other configuration that I have". Apologies.
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I like to think in terms of TOTAL SYSTEM. Plan a budget for an entire system.
<$125
100% on headphones.
Use whatever for source/amp.
<$500
50% headphones
50% amp
whatever for source
<$1000
50% headphones
30% amp
20% DAC
<$5000
33% headphones
33% amp
33% source (DAC/TT)
<$15,000
20% (less or more)
40% amp
40% source (DAC/TT)
Finally the type of answer I was looking for!
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I tried 25 closed portables before I finally said, "Fuck it! No more. I'll use IEMs."
I'm definitely with you on that one. IEMs rule for portable and maybe for all uses where isolation is needed. Using CIEMs at home instead of a closed can is probably not a bad idea.
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I guess if you buy HE-6, you end up spending more on amplifier.
Atleast thats my case... First Watt F6 & Pass Labs INT-150.
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I guess if you buy HE-6, you end up spending more on amplifier.
Atleast thats my case... First Watt F6 & Pass Labs INT-150.
Is this a dedicated headphone system? No crossover to speaker use?
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I guess if you buy HE-6, you end up spending more on amplifier.
Atleast thats my case... First Watt F6 & Pass Labs INT-150.
You raise a good point...I've gone both ways..paired the HE 6 with Yggy/Odyssey Stratos extreme (amp was a tad less in cost) and with Yggy/Mark Levinson power amp (mucho dinero but stupid overkill)
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Is this a dedicated headphone system? No crossover to speaker use?
Dont worry, I will sell the First Watt F6 most likly. I recive the INT-150 tomorrow so i'll see which 1 to keep.
And it will be dedicated headphone system.
1 thing I do want to say is that I feel like a class A stereoamp might be better then most high end headphone amps for other headphones aswell. I mean a INT-150 is class A/B and has tons of power, so a INT-30 is probably better for overall headphone use.
Or a First Watt.
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Those are some pretty distant break points...Gumby sort of breaks my ratio to pieces. :)p1
Gumby can throw the ratio out of whack because of it's value and high performance / dollar. Still, if you've got Gumby, you really should be running an amp that will take advantage of it's capabilities.
As far as the distant break points, put the figures in Excel and interpolate.
My reasoning was as follows:
1] Headphones will be the most colored piece of gear in the audio chain. We can discuss this all day, so we won't. Pick this first for obvious reasons.
2] DACs sound closer to each other than not. Differences between DACs are more easily heard with more resolving gear.
3] Thus don't bother with DACs at the low end or even entry level. Use what you have handy or can get for free from friends (iRiver Soviet iPod, sound card, old HeadRoom BitHead).
4] As an aside, because of #1 and #2, so called "objectivists" claim there are no DAC differences if three or four measurements don't show nonlinear behavior past certain thresholds. Of course this has nothing to do with science since these "objectivists" have not heard any of the gear in question nor have they conducted experiments to support their hypothesis. They demand experiments of high rigor (DBT, 0.01db volume matching, etc.) from those who they disagree with, while accepting less rigorous "experiments" (anecdotes) from those they agree with: "I conducted a blind test of the ODAC and the Benchmark DAC1 and I couldn't tell the difference from my Objective 2 amp, which we all know is nearly perfect and transparent".
5] As we move up to higher fidelity headphones, the immediately weak link seems to be amplifiers. Many headphones, such as high efficiency orthos and moderate efficiency traditional dynamics, love amplifiers that can provide clarity, power, control, dynamics, articulation. There are some exceptions. Grados and certain Audio Technicas, because of their super efficiency, may not sound any better with an amp. These kinds of headphones require extremely resolving amps, not necessarily power. But in general, more power is better, but only if we can maintain resolution, clarity, low distortion, etc.
6] At some point, between roughly $2000-$3000, the source starts to become more important, as important as the amp or even slightly more, just in case. IMO, in the initial or medium stages, source should take a back seat to the amp because an amp's sonic colorations are more obvious.
7] Finally, for some headphones, spending more on amps won't matter after some point. They won't scale. All you will get is something "different" (nothing wrong with that, just be cognizant of it and don't let HF convince you otherwise). Same thing for amps. After some point, DACs won't matter if your amp can't reveal the nuances of what the better DACs are capable of doing. The above, #2 and #5 is why Gary at HF didn't find any distinguishable differences between most of the DACs he auditioned. He used an LCD3 (presumably degraded) and a speaker amp.
8] Another approach is source first. Maybe a small business in a nice small town just north of El Lay made a kick ass DAC (or two) which is universally agreed by everyone as to have an extremely high performance/price ratio. Might be a good idea to start with that.
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Dont worry, I will sell the First Watt F6 most likly. ............... 1 thing I do want to say is that I feel like a class A stereoamp might be better then most high end headphone amps for other headphones aswell. I mean a INT-150 is class A/B and has tons of power, so a INT-30 is probably better for overall headphone use.
Or a First Watt.
Mate, what am I missing? Why sell the F6
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They demand experiments of high rigor (DBT, 0.01db volume matching, etc.) from those who they disagree with
The level matching should be 0.1dB. I don't think any reasonable person demands 0.01dB. Anyway, for things with flat frequency response (ie. not headphones or speakers), this is easy to do: just use a voltmeter and a 1 kHz sine wave test signal and match voltages to 1%. That's a little better than 0.1dB, but easy to remember and do. (20*log10(1.01) = 0.08dB)
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The level matching should be 0.1dB. I don't think any reasonable person demands 0.01dB. Anyway, for things with flat frequency response (ie. not headphones or speakers), this is easy to do: just use a voltmeter and a 1 kHz sine wave test signal and match voltages to 1%. That's a little better than 0.1dB, but easy to remember and do. (20*log10(1.01) = 0.08dB)
Another easy thing to do is looking up the definition of 'facetious'. ;)
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The level matching should be 0.1dB.
Ever tried to do that with a volume knob? Match different amps to within 0.1db with a volume knob? Serious question. If the answer is yes, I have follow up question to that. (As usual, I'm holding all my cards close. Not many people have actually tried performing even single blind tests.)
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Mate, what am I missing? Why sell the F6
You havent missed a thing.
I got a Pass Labs INT-150 and First Watt F6, so I will do a comparison.
First impression is that they sound extremly similar. So then I probably keep the INT-150 for the convinience.
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2jeb4ph.jpg)
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These ratios are really good starting point. Even with my under $1k budget setup, the numbers are really close to what I have invested or will invest.
Waiting for that one new unmentionable dac upgrade from the nordic guys.
Where I am having a hard time with it is in the under $500 area where each half go to amp and cans. Assuming tablet, laptop or phone as source, I think one might get better results by using some of the ubiquitous dac/amp combos. I know whenever I used one of the 3 sources above, going analog out and dumping it into an amp did not work nearly as well for me as using something like a Microstreamer.
All in all, though well thought out and good points in the follow ups.
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Ever tried to do that with a volume knob? Match different amps to within 0.1db with a volume knob?
I've done it with a resistor network for line-level stuff. I've never tried with a volume knob, presumably some kind of continuous pot?
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Continuous pot just makes everything sound good good, especially to the idiots performing it*. ;)
But seriously... people aren't aware of that cheapest of hifi upgrades? The volume knob? And how changes which are too small to be perceived as changes of volume can appear to be changes of sound quality?
Anyone who isn't is not getting the best of their volume knob. Or is just not thinking about how that merest touch can change discomfort or dissatisfaction into delight without making the music actual feel more, or less, loud
And the only piece of audio theory that most hifi salesman ever learn: Louder, if not already too loud, is always better... "Try this amplifer, sir, I think you'll find its tones deeper and rounder and altogether more...Aaagh! Don't touch that knob!"
Thus the need for level matching in any serious testing.
But, as for the practicality of all that stuff, including blind testing of hardware, don't ask me! It is too much like hard work. Accordingly, I don't claim to have ever done any really serious testing --- including of the stuff that I buy or don't buy.
(*Yes, I'm still a committed Grateful Dead lover. No, I don't have any problems at all with psychedelics, although I left them behind 40 years ago. But I remember how clever we thought we were, doing the stupidest things. Hey ho, it was fun at the time)
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I've started to look at it this way:
Buy class A stereoamp.
Buy Yggdrasil or any other R2R DAC
Then buy whatever headphone you want.
I'm amazed by what a class A amp like First Watt F6 can do, even with LCD-3F.
My Mjolnir is literally garbage compared.
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I've started to look at it this way:
Buy class A stereoamp.
Buy Yggdrasil or any other R2R DAC
Then buy whatever headphone you want.
I'm amazed by what a class A amp like First Watt F6 can do, even with LCD-3F.
My Mjolnir is literally garbage compared.
I've been thinking of using stereo amps too for high impedance headphones since they need a lot of gain anyway. The First Watt F4 seems damn near ideal for headphone use since it has a gain of zero.
Do you have any problem with noise though?
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I've started to look at it this way:
Buy class A stereoamp.
Buy Yggdrasil or any other R2R DAC
Then buy whatever headphone you want.
I'm amazed by what a class A amp like First Watt F6 can do, even with LCD-3F.
My Mjolnir is literally garbage compared.
Aside from the need for a pre or passive attenuator, I agree that the Pass amps are great solid state options. For those on a budget, the complete Pass amp camp kit is like $300? F3, among other, clones are also quite cheap and pop up regularly used on audiogon/audiomart/craigslist for those who want prebuilts but don't want to invest in the real deal. I have an F3 clone sitting next to me right now in the office. Gets hot enough to cook an egg on but sounds really good. Supposedly even pairs nicely with hd800's but I haven't gotten around to building a new XLR to speaker tap adapter.
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I've been thinking of using stereo amps too for high impedance headphones since they need a lot of gain anyway. The First Watt F4 seems damn near ideal for headphone use since it has a gain of zero.
Do you have any problem with noise though?
Yes, you won't want to do that with a sensitive headphone with the HD800. I have a First Watt J2 and have tried my HD800, LCD3F, and HE6 through it.
The HE6 is insensitive enough that there isn't any noise, but the HD800 and LCD3F have background buzzing with the amp. I've tried various isolation solutions with no luck. The buzzing is quieter on the LCD3F, and isn't really noticeable once the volume's turned up.
The First Watt works great with the HE6 and maybe other similar orthos will work, but I probably wouldn't recommend any dynamic headphones to pair with it. The HD800s sound okay with it but something like the Balancing Act will be much more satisfying. Orthos work pretty well with speaker amps.
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Gumby can throw the ratio out of whack because of it's value and high performance / dollar. Still, if you've got Gumby, you really should be running an amp that will take advantage of it's capabilities.
As far as the distant break points, put the figures in Excel and interpolate.
Yes, looking at percent increase... we get a funky looking graph! :)p13
The kilobuck has made a nice demarcation line for me every time I've taken a hard look at audio. Outside of transducers, at a kilobuck, captures most of the value to performance area and that's how I came up with my budget. I initially was going to do the traditional 3:2:1 (transducer/amp/dac) route. Liquid Carbon came in at the right price (I hope it punches above its price, but will have to wait and hear). Yggy was way out of my price range; Bifrost Uber appeared like a good compromise. Then, Gumby came in and sealed the deal. Final ratio of 3:2:4.
TL;DR: Like Tyll said, I don't mind buying a bit more DAC and Amp as differences above a certain level SHOULD be small, and I don't want to miss out. Pyrates drink snake oil and turn it into piss. :)p2 I feel pretty confident in my planned system thanks to y'all.
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Aside from the need for a pre or passive attenuator, I agree that the Pass amps are great solid state options. For those on a budget, the complete Pass amp camp kit is like $300? F3, among other, clones are also quite cheap and pop up regularly used on audiogon/audiomart/craigslist for those who want prebuilts but don't want to invest in the real deal. I have an F3 clone sitting next to me right now in the office. Gets hot enough to cook an egg on but sounds really good. Supposedly even pairs nicely with hd800's but I haven't gotten around to building a new XLR to speaker tap adapter.
Ive heard the F3 isent that great with HE-6 bcuz of some voltage stuff.
F6 isent the best either, but it sounds blood damn good. Apparently the F1J and SIT amps are the IT amps from First Watt.
But they are also very expensive.
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Ive heard the F3 isent that great with HE-6 bcuz of some voltage stuff.
F6 isent the best either, but it sounds blood damn good. Apparently the F1J and SIT amps are the IT amps from First Watt.
But they are also very expensive.
Notwithstanding xenophon's post about how he drove the f3 to clip with he6's during a high volume "torture test," other experienced listeners and posters have reported very good things about the f3/f3 clone -> he6 pairing. See, e.g., (1) http://www.head-fi.org/t/529873/amps-that-can-drive-the-hifiman-he-6-planar-headphones#post_7144509 , (2) http://www.head-fi.org/t/529873/amps-that-can-drive-the-hifiman-he-6-planar-headphones/945#post_9219123 , (3) http://www.head-fi.org/t/529873/amps-that-can-drive-the-hifiman-he-6-planar-headphones/1515#post_9629691 .xenophon also sort of recants at the end: http://www.head-fi.org/t/529873/amps-that-can-drive-the-hifiman-he-6-planar-headphones/3360#post_11032419
It is also supposed to be great with hd800's - which I tend to believe based on the slight triode like characteristics and sound signature with speakers. I don't have he6's, but I will try to remember to report back on the match with hd800's and 650's once I get around to making another adapter.
No doubt the F1J and SIT are great, but at 5-10x the cost of a clone or amp camp kit. Would love to hear the former though at some point!
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^
Thanks for links!
I'm currently testing the F6 against INT-150. They are close, but the F6 just has some special things about it.
It sounds so full, delicious and effortless
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Gumby can throw the ratio out of whack because of it's value and high performance / dollar. Still, if you've got Gumby, you really should be running an amp that will take advantage of it's capabilities.
As far as the distant break points, put the figures in Excel and interpolate.
My reasoning was as follows:
1] Headphones will be the most colored piece of gear in the audio chain. We can discuss this all day, so we won't. Pick this first for obvious reasons.
2] DACs sound closer to each other than not. Differences between DACs are more easily heard with more resolving gear.
3] Thus don't bother with DACs at the low end or even entry level. Use what you have handy or can get for free from friends (iRiver Soviet iPod, sound card, old HeadRoom BitHead).
4] As an aside, because of #1 and #2, so called "objectivists" claim there are no DAC differences if three or four measurements don't show nonlinear behavior past certain thresholds. Of course this has nothing to do with science since these "objectivists" have not heard any of the gear in question nor have they conducted experiments to support their hypothesis. They demand experiments of high rigor (DBT, 0.01db volume matching, etc.) from those who they disagree with, while accepting less rigorous "experiments" (anecdotes) from those they agree with: "I conducted a blind test of the ODAC and the Benchmark DAC1 and I couldn't tell the difference from my Objective 2 amp, which we all know is nearly perfect and transparent".
5] As we move up to higher fidelity headphones, the immediately weak link seems to be amplifiers. Many headphones, such as high efficiency orthos and moderate efficiency traditional dynamics, love amplifiers that can provide clarity, power, control, dynamics, articulation. There are some exceptions. Grados and certain Audio Technicas, because of their super efficiency, may not sound any better with an amp. These kinds of headphones require extremely resolving amps, not necessarily power. But in general, more power is better, but only if we can maintain resolution, clarity, low distortion, etc.
6] At some point, between roughly $2000-$3000, the source starts to become more important, as important as the amp or even slightly more, just in case. IMO, in the initial or medium stages, source should take a back seat to the amp because an amp's sonic colorations are more obvious.
7] Finally, for some headphones, spending more on amps won't matter after some point. They won't scale. All you will get is something "different" (nothing wrong with that, just be cognizant of it and don't let HF convince you otherwise). Same thing for amps. After some point, DACs won't matter if your amp can't reveal the nuances of what the better DACs are capable of doing. The above, #2 and #5 is why Gary at HF didn't find any distinguishable differences between most of the DACs he auditioned. He used an LCD3 (presumably degraded) and a speaker amp.
8] Another approach is source first. Maybe a small business in a nice small town just north of El Lay made a kick ass DAC (or two) which is universally agreed by everyone as to have an extremely high performance/price ratio. Might be a good idea to start with that.
This needs to be a sticky on the new site
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Definitely.. and forget such thing as "best headphone of the world" .. that does not exist.
There's only "personal preferred headphone for me and the music/recordings I listen to" . understanding there's no "world champion" headphone is the best way to enjoy happily this hobby .
Too bad Music Alchemist won't accept this...
Music Alchemist is the biggest tool on HF. His constant praise for headphones which he has never heard and disdain for headphones which he spent a couple days before selling is everything that's wrong with that site.
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This needs to be a sticky on the new site
I agree with audiofrk, this should be a sticky, where ever it may be found.
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http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/how-to-allocate-budget-among-headphones-amps-and-dac-source.57/