CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on May 23, 2013, 03:51:01 PM
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Pre-measurement Impressions.
CT sent these to me and I love them. They don't have super detail extraction, are a little bit murky in the bass (not too different from the HD650 bass really), but are well balanced. If there is a minor niggle, I think the region around 3-4k sounds slightly emphasized (compared to me reference systems.) We are not talking nasty peaks here, and the HD600's tonal accuracy still blows 95% of all other headphones out of the water, but it's something to note.
There's a reason why the HD600 is in the hall of fame / Pirate's booty.. I think people entering the hobby and wanting an accurate sounding open headphone that does well with a wide variety of genres and recordings should seriously consider this headphone. One of my favorite rigs early on (many years ago) was an HD600 <- 4-ch B22 <- tubed Chinese CD-player (a good sounding one)
A good HD650 doesn't sound too different from the HD600. The main difference to me is that the HD650 is more laid back in the upper mids.
Measurements later after I take a nap.
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Those were my impressions of the 600 and 650 too. They're overall not that much different, not in the bass really either. I found 600 to be a bit too forward in the upper mids and that was about it. When I auditioned both again using a fosgate tube amp I preferred the hd600.
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There's a reason why the HD600 is in the hall of fame / Pirate's booty..
And on the Wall of Fame. And voted the most important headphone to Audiophiles here: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/whats-most-important-headphone-history-headphone-enthusiasm .
Yup, an amazing headphone. Should be the first headphone recommended to anyone getting into headphones for serious listening.
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I was very impressed with CT's HD600 at the Bay Area meet too. They're like slipping into a Snuggie -- just warm and soothing. I could easily see myself settling for an HD600 rig for all of eternity and not looking back.
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I had an HD580 early on in my head-fi life and I'm kicking myself for trading it away. I don't even remember what I traded it for... I think it was either a K701 or ESW9a. Granted, around that time I was also trading one or two headphones a month, so it's all kind of a blur.
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FR and CSD.
As expected, typical Sennheiser high-end, err mid-fi driver matching - excellent that is. I actually don't find the 4.5k ringing troublesome (ringing around 4-5k brings a little bite and edge to things, and but itself, it does not bother me. It's also possible I have slight hearing damage in this area.) The broader bump at 3.5k is more obvious to me.
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Yup, an amazing headphone. Should be the first headphone recommended to anyone getting into headphones for serious listening.
^This
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There's a reason why the HD600 is in the hall of fame / Pirate's booty..
And on the Wall of Fame. And voted the most important headphone to Audiophiles here: http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/whats-most-important-headphone-history-headphone-enthusiasm .
Yup, an amazing headphone. Should be the first headphone recommended to anyone getting into headphones for serious listening.
Gotta say, I'm pretty impressed with how the results shook out. Shows the general level of knowledge of the IF readership as a whole.
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Nice measurements. I LOVE the HD600.. the only reason I sold it was to help fund an HD800. After having the HD800, I still think the HD600 could harmoniously coexist with it. The HD600 is more forgiving, warmer, and is less picky with upstream gear. It has a midrange that's absolutely delicious. I feel like it had more midbass emphasis than the measurements indicate. That being said, this was the first phone (IEM or otherwise) that had a midbass boost (and rolled off lower bass) that I really liked.
I might prefer the comfort of the HD600 to the HD800, too. I liked the HD600's tighter, more decisive grip & more substantial headband padding to the HD800's very comfortable, albeit, slightly loose fit. I had an HD580 before the HD600.. and while they sounded awfully similar, I would gladly take the HD600 over the 580 due to the better build quality, looks (I dig the marble patterning), and tighter driver tolerances.
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The HD600 will be my first real foray into full size headphones. I heard a couple at Canlanta, along with the 650 and 580. Loved the sound of them all but the 600 really appealed to me.
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So... I guess this HD600 is a "silver-screen" version. Not the older "black" acoustic silk screen version?
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Silver
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The hd600 is probably the headphones I have bought and sold the most. I love them to bits but after the pads get worn they don't sound as good any longer. They become more forward, less crisp and airy with older pads. I wished they could design pads that hold their shape longer even after washing because they would become a much better value that way. Spending 60 dollars on pads every 6 months do make them a little expensive to keep up.
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The hd600 is probably the headphones I have bought and sold the most. I love them to bits but after the pads get worn they don't sound as good any longer. They become more forward, less crisp and airy with older pads. I wished they could design pads that hold their shape longer even after washing because they would become a much better value that way. Spending 60 dollars on pads every 6 months do make them a little expensive to keep up.
Perhaps experiment with better pads from other brands / hand-made ones?
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Looks like the HD600 is due for the jergpad treatment.
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Looks like the HD600 is due for the jergpad treatment.
The pads would disintegrate even faster if you cut them up :P
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Nice measurements. I LOVE the HD600.. the only reason I sold it was to help fund an HD800. After having the HD800, I still think the HD600 could harmoniously coexist with it. The HD600 is more forgiving, warmer, and is less picky with upstream gear. It has a midrange that's absolutely delicious. I feel like it had more midbass emphasis than the measurements indicate. That being said, this was the first phone (IEM or otherwise) that had a midbass boost (and rolled off lower bass) that I really liked.
I might prefer the comfort of the HD600 to the HD800, too. I liked the HD600's tighter, more decisive grip & more substantial headband padding to the HD800's very comfortable, albeit, slightly loose fit. I had an HD580 before the HD600.. and while they sounded awfully similar, I would gladly take the HD600 over the 580 due to the better build quality, looks (I dig the marble patterning), and tighter driver tolerances.
I am a one headphone person, but along side my HD800 box (with HD800s inside) is my HD600 box (also with HD600s inside). There is a large delta in their performance, but they share similarities too. I also started with HD580 and moved to HD600, then some mixing of the pot, then HD800.
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The hd600 is probably the headphones I have bought and sold the most. I love them to bits but after the pads get worn they don't sound as good any longer. They become more forward, less crisp and airy with older pads. I wished they could design pads that hold their shape longer even after washing because they would become a much better value that way. Spending 60 dollars on pads every 6 months do make them a little expensive to keep up.
That probably explains why Craig's HD600 with super worn out pads (turned brown - from too much bleaching) sounded like shit - way too forward.
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They don't become as forward as grados but yah you get the idea.
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Has anyone seen this?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QphUe5n04T4/US_LrrLzEAI/AAAAAAAACd4/ZLyLxcfaeDo/s640/pic+2+(Large).JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pVetvZZn2bo/US_Kl0_STXI/AAAAAAAACdQ/yKuYaPdkIQ0/s640/IMG_0997+(Large).JPG)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7LJUtt_Sd0s/US_Mcm7R5uI/AAAAAAAACeI/xDbEUbmikdw/s640/IMG_1051-1.JPG)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-5yiEtYwtJ50/US_MoB-riKI/AAAAAAAACeQ/B78tvK3eHow/s640/pic+1+(Large).JPG)
More pix here (http://runawaybrainz.blogspot.com/2013/02/audio-sennheiser-hd580-jubilee.html).. Not sure if it would impact the sound in a positive manner.. but man, that's some lovely work.
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old stuff that.. I do miss my HD580s. Started out with that (well originally with the KSC75s). Bought two of them. Had a pair of the HD600s and the HD650 all at the same time. Only the HD580 stuck around long enough to be ejected once i walked into orthodom.
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Those orthos better be as good as you guys say. I'm looking to swap my HD650 for a Paradox.
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HD580 was my last dynamic as well before I ditched them all to switch to the orthos.
Haven't heard the paradox but RD's T50Rp mod slaughters any current production headphone I have tried.
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Care to quantify "slaughters"?
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Well, I don't really have much experience with current TOTL headphones apart from the LCD-2 but compared to HD600/650 its better in almost every aspect - tonal balance, transient response,imaging, bass quality and extension/texture of treble.
May be the Senns have a slight edge in soundstage department but that is to be expected considering we are comparing an open headphone to closed one (and even there RD's T50RP is pretty darned good for a closed headphone).
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You too, Tyll! Pulling that HD650 from the Wall... At least it doesn't have that faux granite look.
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I also like the HD600 quite a bit. A coworker has the HD580 and I thought it also sounded fantastic. I think he said he replaced his pads quite a few times in 13 years. Maintenance seems pretty straightforward with these cans.
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You too, Tyll! Pulling that HD650 from the Wall... At least it doesn't have that faux granite look.
:)p13
I struggled with that decision quite a bit. But I ended up thinking the 600 sounded better at a lower cost, so it was a better headphone by a good margin. Oh well.
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hd600 is one of the only dynamics I still keep around. Tonality is pretty similar to he60
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Another + vote from me.
The only headphone that sounded tonally right to my ears at first listen.
I like it a lot, considering it's limitations I still consider it to be brilliantly tuned.
Sometimes I just wish it had a lil bit faster decay overall and more linear uppermids (I also find it to have too much emphasys around 3 - 4 KHz) for cleaner and more transparent vocals and instruments.
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Care to quantify "slaughters"?
My definition with RD's T50's: Very engaging, enjoyable listen that does not commit commit any sins of commission and yet you still don't feel like you're losing out on that much resolution.
If the litmus test for headphones was how long you can actually stand to listen to them, I'd agree with guru, both on comfort and sound sig.
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^I'll agree with that. Its definitely not the last word on the resolution but it does get a lot of things spot on.And to top it all, its sensitive enough to be a great listen with the humble ipod. A simple ipod > T50RD would blow away many a rig costing 20 times , IMHO.
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Just wondering, is the HD600 made in Germany like the rest of Sennheiser's high-end 'phones?
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I believe only the HD800 is made in Germany (the Orpheus was as well if memory serves correctly.) They have an Irish plant where the HD700 is made, not sure about the rest of the line but Ireland sticks in my head for the rest of the HD's.
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my 600's and 650's say Ireland. I think I remember someone on HF saying that there are China models of these cans too, but that sounds fishy.
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The 600s and 650s are Ireland. The 558s/598s I believe are China, yet the hd280pro is Ireland. Weird but thats what I have noticed. If I bought 600s and didn't see that it was made in Ireland, I would probably return them.
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Pre-measurement Impressions.
CT sent these to me and I love them. They don't have super detail extraction, are a little bit murky in the bass (not too different from the HD650 bass really), but are well balanced. If there is a minor niggle, I think the region around 3-4k sounds slightly emphasized (compared to me reference systems.) We are not talking nasty peaks here, and the HD600's tonal accuracy still blows 95% of all other headphones out of the water, but it's something to note.
There's a reason why the HD600 is in the hall of fame / Pirate's booty.. I think people entering the hobby and wanting an accurate sounding open headphone that does well with a wide variety of genres and recordings should seriously consider this headphone. One of my favorite rigs early on (many years ago) was an HD600 <- 4-ch B22 <- tubed Chinese CD-player (a good sounding one)
A good HD650 doesn't sound too different from the HD600. The main difference to me is that the HD650 is more laid back in the upper mids.
Measurements later after I take a nap.
My impressions, pretty much; acquired and kept the HD-600 (and HD-580, since way back) on my way to HD-800 and Stax rig. Discarded the HD-650, which I have owned twice, used with several (not expensive) amps and find hopelessly colored, someone's idea of what a "audiophile" HP might sound like. Not close to the 600 in my opinion, and I for one would never have predicted the HD-800 from the company that produced the 650. But that's just me.
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I assume that HD650's can be quite variable then? Not very good for a £300 headphone.
Mine sounds quite similar to my HD600 with a ramped bass and a rolled down treble response. My preference is the HD600 though; although the treble may not be as refined sounding as the HD650.
By 'coloured' do you mean bass dominated?
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I have definitely heard differences between HD650 pairs. Don't know if it is variability due to actual revisions or not.
Sounds like the HD600 variability can be attributed to pads at times...
Have heard HD650s that I really like (bit more upper mids/treble with a couple pairs). Maybe what what I want is a pair of HD625 or HD630. :)p15
Seems like you pick your poison at times: a little too much 3-4Khz or a bit "not enough".
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I have compared two hd650s side by side and switched the pads on both to see if it was the pads making the difference. The old pads do make a difference but the difference between the black material hd650 vs the newer silver material one is definitely bigger than what the pads do to the sound.
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I assume that HD650's can be quite variable then? Not very good for a £300 headphone.
Mine sounds quite similar to my HD600 with a ramped bass and a rolled down treble response. My preference is the HD600 though; although the treble may not be as refined sounding as the HD650.
By 'coloured' do you mean bass dominated?
Rabbit:
By colored, I mean, dark, thick, velvety, with little air and way too much emphasis on a rounded and prominent bass for my taste. But again, that's just me vs. a bazillion people who have loved them. :-)
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In my opinion both the HD600 and HD650 are both very pleasant and capable.
The HD650 (which version & set-up I cannot remember anymore) just sounded right. It almost made me smile but lacked 'air'.
I prefer a the 'more open' sound AKG has with the sacrifice of feeling less audible low end. If I would not have the AKGs I would have gone with either Sennheiser though. When Sennheiser gets the sound right, there is simply very little to complain about.
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To some extent, I think it depends on where you're coming from as to how you perceive the HD600 and 650. Just like Deep Funk, I find them both extremely capable and perhaps find the HD600 slightly more even handed in frequency response.
I continually leave both for a while and move on to something else only to return to the Senns again. (Both of them)
If you aclimatise to the T40 or T50, then the Senns really don't seem so dark, but coming from AT's they do.
I'm very fond of the modded T40 and my T50, but they are still quite 'dark' in comparison to many headphones (although they measure pretty well). The Senns sound quite open too by comparison. (Of course, the T40 is closed and the T50 semi closed so there would be a difference)
I just turn them up!! I think the Senns light up at slightly higher volume. T40/T50 too. With my AT's, I'm much more comfortable at low volume.
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I am using my HD600s as a reference, when I mod headphones. To my ears, the tonality is just right. What I do try to achieve beyond this reference, however, is better low frequency extension and a little more air.
When I was beginning to get into headphones, I thought the HD600s sounded nice but a little boring. It was only when I began to understand that the magic has to come from the music itself (when well recorded and mixed) and is not something that a colored headphone should add, I began to appreciate them. I have kept them in high regard since then.
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^Nicely Put!! :)p1
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^Nicely Put!! :)p1
+1. He nailed it.
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Been serving me well, they're relatively easy to make sound good with a half-decent rig, but sounds spectacular with a top-notch rig.
Hell of a deal for used pairs a few years ago when you can find them in the $225 range. Nowadays they're closer to $275-$300.
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Hell of a deal for used pairs a few years ago when you can find them in the $225 range. Nowadays they're closer to $275-$300.
I am European and prices for audio gear are just nuts over here. But you can get decent deals on items like the HD600s that most people do not really appreciate enough. They'd rather go for all the fancy and posh stuff. So I got my first pair three years ago for $130. I sold them because I had not begun to appreciate them then. I bought a second pair for $170. I think that is still a very nice price for what you get.
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Those prices are absolutely a steal for what you get.
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With a bit of luck and careful hunting. Being used to having a tight budget bargain hunting becomes second nature...
The Euro is a great concept, too bad about the politicians not being as reliable as a HD600.
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The Euro is a great concept, too bad about the politicians not being as reliable as a HD600.
Sorry, but I must say no to this. As it stands, the Euro makes no economical sense, you can't have a common currency without a way transfer funds between states. It would be like the US without a federal budget to transfer tax revenues from California to Alabama, for example. Try telling the southerners "no more money for you, you'll have to make do with your own taxes", you'd have another civil war on your hands...
Just to keep this on topic, I'm currently on the market for these, I think... I've heard the SR007mkII, and among the "mid-fi bunch" it seems this is the one that sounds closest (or less far from)?
I heard the 600s when I was a teenager and unfortunately the only thing I remember is thinking they were boring. But maybe now I'll appreciate them better?
They're meant to replace a K340 so the 70x would be my first bet, but I've heard a Q701 and couldn't stand it, I don't understand why people recommend them for orchestral and chamber music, they sound very artificial, as if somebody decided to mess with the EQ sliders. I'm hoping the 600 will sound more natural and lifelike...
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The HD600 will sound different and lifelike. Audition one if you want to be sure or find one used because our words are not as good as your ears. If you do not like the HD600 you can easily resell it.
I used the word "concept" for a reason.
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Have CT's HD600... Preliminary impressions: definitively cleaner than my HD558. My HD558 are a little bit more laid-back, HD600 has better treble, and soundstage. However, both the HD558 and HD600 are actually quite close overall... more than I thought they would be.
I'm surprised at my Focusrite Scarlett 2i2... It can drive them reasonably well! p:8
More will come as I spend more time with these.
Thanks CT and Marv!!!
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Feel free to spend another week or two with them... :)p5
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Feel free to spend another week or two with them... :)p5
:money: :money: :money:
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I'm surprised at my Focusrite Scarlett 2i2... It can drive them reasonably well! p:8
I've got the Focusrite Saffire 6 USB and found the headphone stage reasonably adequate as well. If for some reason I ever needed a better interface I might consider the bigger Saffire 24 DSP which has all the wonky speaker simulations built in.
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Yup, the DSP 24 has a lot of kool features. Would like to see a USB version with similar features.
I was fairly concerned with the 2i2 given some reports about being under-powered, but so far so good. I use it for my measurements (dual 48V phantom stuff included) and seems to have a decent DAC as well.
Anyhow... HD600 phones.
Sound
Relative to my HD558, IMO the HD600 are cleaner sounding in the bass region and more balanced. Percussion instruments are better separated and detail is better extracted through the HD600s. Dynamics are very well rendered.
I feel the HD600 has better treble as well. To my ears, the HD600 bass hits a little harder than the HD558. Neither can has wonky midrange or "hollowness" to it. Neither seems ear drilling "fun" or fatiguing.
I like the HD600 better than my HD558, and what I'm listening backs up my previous positive impression of these classic cans.
Differences do exist to my ears. However, to me the HD558 and HD600 are fairly similar sounding. Differences here are not like going from a DT-990 to a KSC-75, HD202, HD558, Neckband or whatever. These cans definitively seem to belong to the same "family".
The HD600 is definitively a whole lot of delicious win.
Comfort
These are very comfy and light. However, while the HD558 drivers seem to be at an angle (or at least the internal felt is), the HD600 seems flat and my left ear barely touches. It's not bad though, and I can definitively wear these for quite sometime and forget about it.
Seems both phones weight about the same.
Presentation
A lot of love went into the construction of these. Seems to me the plastic on the HD600 is better quality than the plastic on the HD558, but dunno.
I don't like the HD600 pattern... IMO Senn should have made this phone plain black.
Price
It seems to me that the lack of worthy competitors have allowed Senn to be creative with the pricing on these cans. One can by a used HD558 for $100... but a used (or "bargain") HD600? $300 (on a good day). For the committed audiophile this is and should be peanuts though.
Overall
Very good performance. Definitively NOT poo.
Measurements
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... Additionally I checked the HD600 with Schiit's Valhalla.
I basically used the headphone out of the 2i2 into the Valhalla (though I should have probably used the line outs of the 2i2)... Call it expectation bias, but I liked the Valhalla in the chain better than not.
I felt the Valhalla added a little bit of more impact. Very nice sounding amp. The Valhalla destroys the 2i2 in terms of presentation... it is also heavier.
Some FR and distortion measurements with the Valhalla in the chain (which do not seem to be so different from the ones without the tube amp in the chain) are provided below... some FR comparisons (yellow is the Valhalla in the chain) are also provided.
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FR Comparo with HD558 (yellow is HD558)... Not shown but the HD558 does exhibit more distortion than the HD600 (specially in the bass region), even when the Valhalla is added to the chain of the HD600.
(No smoothing was applied for these and the above plots)
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Nice Data.
Looking at the FR-Graph, I believe to know this is a newer one with the "silver Screen" isn't it :P ?
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I wonder how the HD558/598 would measure if you removed the material "underneath" the grill, so that it would be completely open like the HD600. I did that to my HD598 and liked it at the time. You can find pics on HF if you're not sure what I mean. I also had them recabled (nicer, thicker cable, dual-entry), though I'm not sure if that made any difference really.
Still really interesting seeing how they compared to the HD558!
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Nice Data.
Looking at the FR-Graph, I believe to know this is a newer one with the "silver Screen" isn't it :P ?
I think so... FR is not smoothed (below is the FR 1/6 dB/octave smoothed).
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=3739;image)
BTW the apparent driver imbalance and weirdness in the left channel treble might be a measurement artifact (below is a second earlier FR 1/6 dB/octave smoothed FR plot which does not have the driver imbalance and treble discrepancy) ... Might have to remeasure tonite to double check...
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=3741;image)
I wonder how the HD558/598 would measure if you removed the material "underneath" the grill, so that it would be completely open like the HD600. I did that to my HD598 and liked it at the time. You can find pics on HF if you're not sure what I mean. I also had them recabled (nicer, thicker cable, dual-entry), though I'm not sure if that made any difference really.
Still really interesting seeing how they compared to the HD558!
CT's HD600 are actually recabled... Maybe I'll make a cable comparo there popcorn
BTW, I also made a comparison of the HD558 FR w and w/o the material under the grill HERE (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,65.msg24221.html#msg24221)...
The HD558 measurements in this thread are with the material under the grill (stock HD558).
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Were you using different smoothing, or is it just because the scales are spread out more on the old 558 FR's?
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It's the scales Ship (-30 dB to 0 dB vs -35 dB to 0 dB). The HD600 is smoother. Also there might be a measurement error on the L channel. I'll re-check tonite.
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Should be both the stock and Zu Mobius cables down there...cool to get different measurements and graphs on this pair.
BTW, thanks Shipsupt for selling me these!
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Alright. Here we go again...
Frequency Response:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=3743;image)
Differences from previous results: 1/6 dB/octave, 35 dB range on y-axis, resized window (to match HD558 results), re-calibrated to 90 dB, properly position left cup in fixture.
EDIT: Corrected Distortion scales (10 to 100 dB range)
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HD600 vs HD558 take 2 ...
Right cup (yellow is HD558)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=3753;image)
Left cup (yellow is HD558)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=3755;image)
Note differences in distortion (Right cups)
HD600 (EDIT: corrected scales relative to HD558 plot below)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=3763;image)
HD558
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=65.0;attach=3263;image)
NOTE: Stretching plots can give a false sense of smoothness. It is best to overlay FR. The HD600 does indeed sound very similar to the HD558 to my ears. However, to me, the HD600 sounds a little smoother, cleaner and offer better detail.
A Sansa Zip "can drive" the HD600, but one definitively needs to crank it up almost to max with high dynamic range music (like -4 dB form max or more depending).
EDIT: ... and the Valhalla kicks ass with the HD600...
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When you say "w/o the material under the grill," do you just mean the foam you can remove or everything (foam, plastic, thin fabric, etc.), so that inside the cup is 100% transparent minus the metal part of the grill. I ask because the post you link confused me...
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When you say "w/o the material under the grill," do you just mean the foam you can remove or everything (foam, plastic, thin fabric, etc.), so that inside the cup is 100% transparent minus the metal part of the grill. I ask because the post you link confused me...
Sorry about that Hans, for the HD558 I just removed the foam inside the grill. Removing the foam (only) had the effect of reducing the high mids a little relative to the rest of the FR (I find the last two plots on that HD558 link more revealing about this).
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The distortion measurements between the HD558 and HD600 really do sum up the differences between the two. The HD600 simply sounds more "hi-fi" - clearer, less blurry, better articulation, etc. Still, the HD558 is a great starter headphone that's easy to find for dirt cheap.
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Yup. I also re-did my measurements (both HD600 and HD558) today, and got very similar results. I think I messed up the coupling on the first set of measurements but the last set seem golden :)p5.
Interesting to see that 3rd harmonic distortion is relatively much higher in the HD558.
Really liking the HD600, it is definitively getting more head time than my HD558... DAMMIT!!!
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Another HD600 measured at the SD Coronado meet:
Frequency Response:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=4371;image)
CSD right:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=4373;image)
CSD left:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=4375;image)
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Got my HD600s (via Massdrop) a few days ago. These did sound a little more lively than my HD558. They also seem more refined. Like them quite a bit.
Here are some measurements:
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=5262;image)
Distortion Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=5264;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=5266;image)
CSD Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=5268;image)
CSD Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=5270;image)
Impedance
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=5272;image)
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FR comparo with CTs...
Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=5278;image)
Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=5280;image)
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are the hd600's a lot brighter than the 650's?
(Great measurements and graphs btw) p;)
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Depends. There seemed to be a little bit of product variation w the HD650. One at the SD meet and Mackat's HD650 seemed pretty close. The one I heard at the HeadRoom table some years ago seemed darker.
I feel the HD6x0 family have also a lot in common with the HD5x8 family... Except the HD6x0 is more refined and pairs well with higher impedance amplifiers.
The HD580 also seems to sound pretty close (a friend at work has one). I think it is supposed to be the non-jubilee version of the HD600. They come out on eBay, but most of the time they seem priced too close to a brand new HD600, and seem pretty beat up.
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thank you for the info. I haven't listened to the 600's I only own the 650's because I read they sounded a bit darker which is what I like. However I do like a certain brightness as well, I guess it depends on what frequency range that brightness is at. Below 16k is not enough, above 16k seems too much. Thank you for your post ultra!
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The hd600s are great cans
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When a head-fier loaned me his pair of hd650s (older black drivers), I found that they sounded REALLY close to my pair of hd600s (silver). The biggest difference that I can hear was that the hd650 had just slightly less upper mid-range/lower treble and just a very slight bit of warmth.
Since I got my hd600s back from a friend of a few days ago, I am looking to sell them. I could also lend them out to some pirates, if they're willing to pay for the shipping.
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Hats off to Sennheiser for this killer, neutral headphone. Never letting mine go.
(http://i.imgur.com/ha4pNO5.png)
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Ultra- I have the stock cable plus two different Zu Mobius cables. One has 1/4" term and the other has dual 3-pin XLR.
Want me to ship any/all to you to see what you think and can report back? :)p10
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I don't have anything w 3-pin XLR, but if I can drive the cans from the 2i2 balanced line outs I can try using a pair of TRS to XLR adapters... It may not work (dunno about the line out output impedance and driving capability), but could give it a try.
Send them out. The 1/4" should be more than fine. I also have an HD650 cable coming my way. I think it would be interesting! :)p7
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Okay- will do. I better just put you in my contact list this time! Please PM your deets and I'll get them to you. Oh, we are getting close to the Bay Area Meet...should I send with one of the guys down afterwards so you can hold them as long as you like?
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PMed you. No worries, send the cables w one of the guys.
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So how different sounding are the latest iterations of the HD600 vs HD650?
Been trying to wrap my mind around the HD650 over the weekend, and it's definitely more "veiled"-sounding than I remember CEETEE's HD600 last year. It's the latest white-driver version so I was assuming it'd be closer sounding to the HD600.
Ultra -- have you measured a 650 on your rig yet?
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Yup. Will do an overlay tonite...
And here it is! ;D
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=987.0;attach=5301;image)
This particular HD650 (from the SD meet) was fairly beat up. The internal padding was disintegrating and fragments might have been touching the drivers. This might also account for the imbalance. Going from memory, the measurements were fairly repeatable.
Not sure in general, but at least this pair show a little less energy in the upper mids and lower treble...
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Mkubota is kind enough to have lent me his HD580 and HD650. They have slightly different FR, having all three would be great to slightly EQ the upper mids depending upon the recording. I find my HD600 to sit inbetween the HD650 and HD580 with the HD580 a touch brighter than my 600. So if I only keep one model, I've got the right one because it is in the middle. :)
I'll be returning them at the meet so Saturday night anyone who can come meet up at the hotel, ping me and I'll keep you updated with the Suite details. Will have the Senn lineup and a tube amp lineup for them as well.
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Honestly, this deserves a bump. The HD600 should never not be talked about.
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I should record here that Geek Out 450> HD600 is great. (I have said it everywhere else.)
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I had an HD650, but sold it (mistake). I've always wanted an HD600. If only I had the money right now :(. I'm stuck on stock T50RP.
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I have a pair of HD580 that I upgraded with HD650 drivers and grills (both are silver versions) and I'm not sure I can even tell a difference. I bought HP50's and Paradoxes around the same time, and any differences between the 580 and 650 are tiny compared to the differences between both Senns and the other phones. I only have one pair of Senn ear pads, so I can't do quick A/Bing. I was going to keep 1 pair of drivers and sell the other, but I'm not sure which to keep.
After hearing the others, the tonal balance of the Sennheisers doesn't seem right anymore. The lack of bass extension is noticeable and I think the bigger 3-4KHz peak (compared to the others, as measured on Innerfidelity's fake ear) is not right. They sound a little thin and strident overall. The HP50s and Paradoxes have other problems though. (I should have quit while I was ahead and left the forums when I got the 580's.)
Some people on Head fi put Brainwavz HM5 pads on the 650 and 580 and it supposedly enhances the bass: http://www.head-fi.org/t/197776/sennheiser-hd650-impressions-thread/18060 (They put HM5 pads over the plastic ring from Senn pads).
Has anyone tried this? (Or plastic pads on open phones, in general?) Any chance of measurements?
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I feel the HD580 has more in common with the HD600 than the HD650. But I would agree that the HD580/600 and the HD650 are somewhat close.
If you feel the HD650s and HD580s r bass lite, an HE500, HE400, or perhaps the Slants might be an improvement in that area... at the expense of others, but YMMV.
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Sounds like you want a warmer tone than what the 600 can give? Phillips X1 might do the trick, just based on what others have written about it.
How do you find the final balance on the other 2 headphones?
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(wow it's been forever since posting here)
So the general consensus is the HD6xx are both excellent headphones with little difference... Might have to sell these Grado's to help fund a pair
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Just got my HD600 in, and some of you know I thought they were a bit hot around 3-4KHz. I came back after several hours and some sleep and found this to be less of a problem. Could be the fact that I stretched them out while I was asleep, could be the QRV-08 amp sounded best after being left on for a while, or it could be that I was just tired when I tried them the first time.
I did still find something about them to be a bit edgy the second time around, though trying them through the Vali put some ease back into them. Measurements didn't really show anything really wrong. A nice, balanced response. No major peaks or humps. Very little ringing. Not quite sure what I was hearing at this point! I'd say that broad 2-4KHz hump could explain what slightly bothered me about them, but it's still so mild that I can't say for sure.
Either way, I had a couple open-cell, foam discs already cut and sitting on my desk from a different project, so I figured it would not hurt to give it a shot and apply them in front of the driver. I put them on the front side of the ear pads and stuffed the edges under the ear pads. No disassembly required! About as quick and easy (and brainless) as it gets. This is the material I used, I believe: http://www.foambymail.com/CF0-125LF/1-8-inch-charcoal-regular-foam.html (http://www.foambymail.com/CF0-125LF/1-8-inch-charcoal-regular-foam.html) If not that, I did get the material from there.
Subjectively, I found this tweak made them a touch warmer and smoother sounding. Definitely more relaxed, though I would not be surprised if more people than not would prefer the slightly edgier quality of stock. Very easy for me to listen to, now. On the other hand, this did ever so slightly reduce their already not-the-best resolving abilities, and they did lose some air. I think it's a good trade off for someone like me, and definitely worth the whole 30 seconds it took me to try it out. Comfort could be improved by installing the disc under the ear pads.
Measurements do indicate a bassier/warmer tilt to the response. 2-4KHz rise is slightly reduced. 6-11KHz area is lowered a bit but also smoother. Upper frequencies roll off more readily than before. Interesting! I'm happy with it, but you may not be. But it does go to show one may be able to slightly tweak the HD600's performance closer to their tastes with similar, easy mods.
I want to note that I made some fairly large changes to my compensation curve. I'm more or less using the HD600 as my reference point for measurements at this point, given the wide availability of measurements from a variety of sources and the fairly decent level of similarities among those. The response below 100Hz has received a sizable boost to compensate for my specific hardware. I'm also applying much less compensation to the area above 10KHz than I was before. Essentially, take my Oppo PM-1 and JVC HA-RX700 measurements, and boost the bass response below 100Hz on those (ex: 20Hz boosted by nearly 5-7dB, rest of curve follows a similar shape). The results above 100Hz should basically match the response above 100Hz on the raw results. That will give you a good idea what changes I made to the compensation curve. I had planned on using the HD600 to set my curve in stone, or closer to it, and it showed I had some changes to make. Should be good now...*crosses fingers*
Full and robust set of measurements to come in the next couple days, likely (stock, though might post a couple more basic, mod/experimental measurements as well). Also more subjective thoughts.
Bottom two pictures are with the foam disc.
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These match my own (uncompensated) measurements fairly well.
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Cool, any chance you can confirm exactly what the damping material is? Hot upper mids or low treble I think was my main problem with the 600s.
I currently have HD650 drivers and grills installed on my HD580 frame. I was thinking of getting an extra pair of earpads for the 580/600 drivers so I can switch them quickly. The Senn pads are $60. There are 3rd-party earpads from China on eBay for $30. Has anyone tried these? Are they any good?
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Awesome work Hans! and these measurements also match my own (uncompinsatid) measures headbang
Dunno much about the eBay cheapo pads.
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Riker, I'm almost 100% sure it's the material I linked to in my previous post. In other past situations, I've also used spare ear-pad material, for clip-on HPs like the KSC75 and such, with decent results. I find the type of foam used for these ear pads to have less of an overall effect on the sound that what I experimented with on the HD600, granted this is what I was looking for with the HD600. Sometimes ear pads for "regular" head phones use inner fabric/mesh lining material that works well for front damping as well (i.e. 840 pads, Monoprice 8323 pads both have interesting pad lining material). Just throwing out some ideas, but check out that link from earlier for this particular material.
It is basically the case now that I'm only compensating for the bass roll-off my hardware exhibits. The rest of the hardware measured within +/-0.06dB of flat (excluding mic), which I am technically compensating for as well. I thought calibrating the comp. curve using HW measurements gave exaggerated bass in the past, but since I wanted to use the HD600 as a reference point to better match other measurements on the interwebz, that showed me otherwise. I think the mic I'm using has a known elevation in the upper treble response, but given I couldn't find a consistent source of measurements to compensate the mic, I'm just not going to worry about it. Worst case scenario, take off 1-2dB above the 9KHz line (roughly peaking at ~2.5dB at 15Khz, IIRC). There are also cases where I thought past measurements exaggerated the 2-5KHz area, but since that was not something I could consistently repeat, I gave up on compensating there as well. Now that I have the HD600 measurements looking as they should, my future measurements should stay consistent with this.
Oh, and those measurements were done at 90dB@1KHz like I've done with my others. The overall levels are low because I turned down the mic-in volume setting to avoid some HD artifacts I was getting in other measurements (CSV export weirdness is still a different issue).
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Finally took full measurements of my HD600 after spending some good time with them. I really like how these sound. Just all around great balance and performance. Never the best in any one area, but, as most have said, it's very hard to find such well-rounded headphones.
However, I found them a bit "edgy" to my ears, though this was dependent on the music and my setup. I think it's the measured hump from 1-4KHz, centered at 3KHz, that bothers me. Besides that, it's the usual nitpicks other have mentioned. Not the best detail retrieval or bass clarity. They don't have a super wide soundstage either. They also hurt the top of my head pretty quickly despite their cushioning and weight. I doubt most others will have a problem there.
Absolutely, 100% recommended if you can get them around $300. An easy headphone to recommend for a first-time audiophile headphone that one could also live with for many, many years and not worry about much else.
Didn't feel like elaborating much since so many other people have described the headphone well.
Note: I still can't figure out why ARTA craps all over my exported CSV files. So, in order to show what the harmonic distortion looks like, I've attached some one-off screen grabs from the FR/HD measurement graph. Also, while the CSD graphs are also one-off deals (not averages of a few measurements), I didn't necessarily pick the ones that match the FR/HD measurements I grabbed. Just picked out whichever ones looked cleanest.
Raw measurements demonstrate I'm really just compensating for hardware-based bass roll-off from this point on.
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Here are full measurements using the open-cell foam material in front of the HD600 drivers I mentioned in an earlier post: http://www.foambymail.com/CF0-125LF/1-8-inch-charcoal-regular-foam.html (http://www.foambymail.com/CF0-125LF/1-8-inch-charcoal-regular-foam.html)
This effectively boosts the bass a bit, smooths out the 1-4KHz area, and somewhat smooths out the treble at the expense of lowering it a bit overall. Subjectively, this reduces some of the energy, impact, and clarity of the stock configuration. They become a slightly warmer and more relaxed headphone. However, though they do become more veiled and less resolving, I prefer the overall tone and texture with this small tweak. In the end, it's really the change in the 1-4KHz area that makes the biggest, most positive difference to my ears. If it weren't for the comfort issues I have with the HD600, I could listen to these for hours on end and be extremely happy.
For now, I placed the material on the front of the headphone and slipped the edges under the ear pad. As easy as can be, though the material is scratchier than the stock fabric beneath it. For a more permanent, more comfortable solution, I plan on placing it underneath the pads and existing fabric material. I'll report back if this somehow changes the sound in a different way.
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Just a quick question as I'm considering pulling the trigger on the HD600. How do they sound with fast music such as hard rock and metal? I have owned the HD650 twice and enjoyed it but found it too slow and dark for rock and metal.
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I think they work well with about anything, though I found that 2-4KHz hump could make rock/metal a bit too "hot" or aggressive to listen to at times. They are brighter and have less of that bass/low-mid hump than the HD650 out of the box, so that might help. Just don't expect wild differences. Both respond quite well to simple damping mods if you don't find everything to your tastes.
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Just a quick question as I'm considering pulling the trigger on the HD600. How do they sound with fast music such as hard rock and metal? I have owned the HD650 twice and enjoyed it but found it too slow and dark for rock and metal.
Based on your reaction to HD650 (mine is similar), I think you'll find HD600 far from ideal for rock/metal. It's one of my favorite phones currently in production, but it doesn't bring out what's exciting in those genres. :(
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When I owned the HD600 and HD650, I was listening to a great deal of metal. Mostly Opeth at the time, I was just discovering them and was pretty obsessed. I adored both of those cans with metal, but I adored both of those cans with everything.
Unfortunately if you were not super impressed with the HD650 I doubt the HD600 will be your ticket. They are so similar.
Reading through this thread really makes me want to hear these cans again. I never should have sold the HD650.
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Claritas:
Thanks. I was very close to pulling the trigger before I read your post. Classic to hard rock is the only genre I listen to. I find the 650 to be a little slow as well. That leaves to infer whether the Senns in general are "not that good" for rock music. I know its too sweeping a statement and the Senn HPs I've listened to are: 650 and 800 (I own them), the 700 very briefly and the Momentums (which I have gifted away). The 800 I'm leaving out of the discussion since it brings other dimensions to the music. Whaddya think?
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HD600 is my go-to for metal and hard rock. But my alternative is the HD800 so you know...
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That leaves to infer whether the Senns in general are "not that good" for rock music. [snip] Whaddya think?
That's my experience too. I can see an implausible case for HD700 as a sort of Grado'd Senn. But if so, just go all the way and use Grados. In the sub-$500 range, I prefer HE400i because it has much more drive.
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700 huh? I dunno, it seemed like a slightly worse version of the TH 900. Damn, I miss that HP. I traded that for the Audez'e LCD-X !!
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Just Bougtht a HD600 too. Replacement for My 800 when it will travel to colorware.
After Two HD580, I'm back to classics. Maybe I'll keep it it's more enjoyable than my 800 for some genre and because it's a kind of reference headphone in the market.
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My fellow Canadians...HD600's are $300 CAD today on Amazon.ca. Get 'em before they're gone, eh.
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Just a quick question as I'm considering pulling the trigger on the HD600. How do they sound with fast music such as hard rock and metal? I have owned the HD650 twice and enjoyed it but found it too slow and dark for rock and metal.
I'm very new to my HD600s, an still finding out how to make them work my sadly-non-standard ears. I found the bass a little unclear, but the fix for this was reducing it a little. by cutting a little bit around 100Hz, I found I could increase below that without loosing the sharpness.
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Toss some damping in the cups if you want to tone down and clean up the bass a bit.
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It's ongoing, but, at least for the music I was listening to last session (another coming up now) I'm fairly happy with the result with just EQ, and, as I'm listening from a PC, EQ is easy. Hmmm... Easy to put there, at least, harder to learn.
(The thing I have to fight is the tendency to want to make the curve look right, rather than simply listen to the results. Damned brain! The other thing is that my HF hearing loss is sufficient that I now no longer know what "flat" is. Something that I can enjoy is the best I can do. OK, so, in a way it doesn't matter, but in a way it does: I always rather liked the old-fashioned definition of hifi, reproducing the recording accurately.)
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Toss some damping in the cups if you want to tone down and clean up the bass a bit.
Is there a photo guide + measurements for this sort of modification? Just want to make sure I do it right.
Edit: Ah I just saw your post. So you basically stuff foam under the edges of the earpads?
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Material slipped in front of the driver and under the pads will primarily smooth and tone down upper mids and treble. Material placed behind the driver in the cups will mostly tone down bass. I don't think I have pics, but it's really as simple as cutting out oval discs of the material I used and placing them where they need to go.
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Awesome thanks. I've been giving the HD600s a go and the midrange hump just kills my ears. EQ works fine but of course there are instances where that isn't an option...
Speaking of which, does anyone know if the HD650 and HD600 drivers interchangeable? Both headphones look close to being the same and reports on the net seem to suggest its a snap-in replacement. If there isn't any difference in enclosure (i.e. HD650 driver in HD600 enclosure = HD650 driver in HD650 enclosure), what's there to justify the almost $200 AUD price difference at retail?
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Yeah, if the upper-mid hump is bothering you, try out that 1/8" open-cell foam I mentioned. It works fairly well. One or two layers depending on your tastes. You may find even better materials with experimentation. Also don't underestimate what a lesser clamp can do for the sound. More comfortable, if you have a big head, and helps bring back upper treble that the foam might smooth out.
I think the HD600/650 drivers could be swapped. Not sure if everything about the enclosures are identical, but at least that whole part looks the same. Maybe. Can't say I've tried.
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HD650 and HD600 drivers are interchangeable. The 650 driver may be a little smoother for you but it's not significant IMO.
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Interchangeable but not the same.