CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on July 09, 2012, 04:58:51 AM
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Alessandro MS-1 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392.0;attach=1728;image)
Subjective impressions and some thoughts.
I guess "people" say that the Alessandro line is more neutral than the John Grado series. After listening to these, I would have to say that's bullshit. Let me explain why. It all comes down to the trickery of the bass tuning. Everyone knows that certain Grados such as the HF2 and RS1 are tuned to have moar bass, and that most of the SR line tends to have less bass, hence the current use of the comfy pads for the SR60 and SR80. The treble of the MS-1 (isolated from the volume of the bass) is just as if not more fucked up than any other Grado.
Basically the MS-1 reminds me a lot of the HD700. It has the exact same wierd-ass sounding midrange suckout of the HD700. With the HD700 having better bass extension, slightly flatter bass, and real treble extension. I am wondering how the graphs will line up. It all makes sense now. The HD700 is really Senn's attempt at a cyber-Grado, or whatever Mav said. He called it just by looking at the measurements before listening to them too!
For those thinking of buying the MS-1s because they are supposedly more neutral Grados - just don't.
Posting measurements ...
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Graphs attached using standard bowls. Looks like ringing intentionally added at 2.5k to go with the cup resonance (broad 2k-3kHz ridge)
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MS1 (GREEN) vs. HD700 (BLUE)
Culprit of the upper midrange wierdness and pain: dip at 4kHz with sharp rise at 5.5kHz. You gotta hand it to Senn though - at least the HD800 is warmer!
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392.0;attach=1734;image)
MS1 (GREEN) vs. HF2 (RED) vs. SR80i Comfy Pads (BLUE)
MS1 and HF2 were using the standard bowls. Note that HF2 and SR80i do not have the Senndo suckout/rise of death. The MS1 are really nasty sounding because of that up-down-up thing.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=392.0;attach=1736;image)
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:-0 :-0 Added extra comments in the posts above.
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Subjectively speaking, how would you describe the weirdness of the huge midrange dip compared to headphones that don't have it? I have my ideas but I'm curious about what other people have to say.
Coincidentally, doesn't the K550 have a pretty similar dip too?
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LOL. I would describe it as kind of a wierd hollow sound that's also kind of edgy. The K550 has a little bit of it (the pain part), but the MS1 and HD700 are much more closer to each other in terms of this effect.
If I recall correctly, the K550 sounded flatter overall, like nothing is wrong, and then BAM! The K550 didn't have that wierd hollowness at all times.
Some people may find this sonic effect exciting, fun, and clear. I find it wierd at best and painful at worst.
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Wow, these didn't seem that bad to me, I must admit i was one of those "people" :-) Back in the day (5 or 6 years ago) the MS1 was my favorite John Grado, liked it more than the RS1. I didn't think they were this bad when I heard them briefly a week ago either. They seemed bright, and harsh but charming nonetheless. Maybe I didn't listen to them long enough. Or maybe they're pulling a Sextett on me.
I'm interested to hear what Mike has to say.
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Back in the day, we either had Grados or HD650s! At least they are not $1000.
It's still better than SR60/80/125 with bowls. But the SR60i/80i with the comfies beat it.
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I am surprised that these measure so closely to the HD700.
The suck-out might explain why they sounded a bit "dull" to me at times compared with other phones.
They never hit me as annoying as the HD700 though.
THANKS for the graphs!! And the new smileys!!
:)p7
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For the record, I didn't plug them into the BA, but the Objective2.
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Back in the day, we either had Grados or HD650s! At least they are not $1000.
Yeah I remember either enjoying the smoothness of the HD650 and being annoyed by the dullness, or enjoying the clarity of Grados and being annoyed by the harshness. It was like always being forced to choose between eating dry raw carrots and donuts. And going back and forth buying/selling over and over again. Until I found AKG. And then I fell for the isodynamic dream.
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^I bought my K240s (obviously reverberant) as an alternative to the Grados too.
I'm going to have to listen to the MS1 with Cowboy Junkies' Sweet Jane and see if they "whistle" anywhere near the level that the HD700 did.
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Try Nirvana's Lithium - around 0:42 I believe.
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I dunno, my M@1 was always less bright than any of my Grados be them 60/80/225/RS1. I liked the 225/RS1 better for being more refined and and less grainy but my MS1 was less bright for me and the least offensive till I got my HP2s.
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MS1 with aluminum cups and extender (jaben kit) for sale!
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Lol, scathing assessment of the Alessandro but it was expected. I don't recall the midrange to be as sucked out as how you're describing it. I had the MS-1i (with comfies) and had it paired with an RA-1 clone (oh no more crappy gear). Not sure if the MS-1i has a fuller midrange and less problematic treble but I usually can't tolerate these things and I quite enjoyed the Alessandro. It only became grating and overly dry when I tried the reverse HD414 quarter mod.
If the HD700 is a more refined MS-1i I may actually enjoy the abomination. Damn.
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The ms1 mids were okay with me when the quarter mod was done but the upper mids to lower treble got annoying as a result. I think Grado still needs to engineer better pads. they make too many headphones that are overpriced yet the pads make them sound like shit.
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I wonder how perceptions like the Alessandros being more neutral crop up in the first place.
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I wonder how perceptions like the Alessandros being more neutral crop up in the first place.
Same hype as with any semi-custom Grados. No minor tweak will take away the basic signature of the John Grados, you'd have to basically redesign the whole housing or the driver. After listening up and down the line I'd say that it's worth it to only recommend the SR80, the incremental changes in the RS series (& up) aren't worth it.
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My impressions aren't influenced by that kind of hype.
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I dunno, my M@1 was always less bright than any of my Grados be them 60/80/225/RS1. I liked the 225/RS1 better for being more refined and and less grainy but my MS1 was less bright for me and the least offensive till I got my HP2s.
My impressions mirror this. I'll have to listen to them again sometime.
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I wonder how perceptions like the Alessandros being more neutral crop up in the first place.
Same hype as with any semi-custom Grados. No minor tweak will take away the basic signature of the John Grados, you'd have to basically redesign the whole housing or the driver. After listening up and down the line I'd say that it's worth it to only recommend the SR80, the incremental changes in the RS series (& up) aren't worth it.
That's always been my advice when it comes to Grado. I am lucky enough to have a Grado dealer in town, so I was able to listen to the entire SR line up. I wasn't too impressed. I had always expected to hear more of a difference as I went up the line.
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I wonder how perceptions like the Alessandros being more neutral crop up in the first place.
Advertised as being made for musicians or some crap. Combine that with hype/tin eared headfi'ers and there you go.
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Advertised as being made for musicians or some crap. Combine that with hype/tin eared headfi'ers and there you go.
Yep. That seems to be the most plausible explanation -- the marketing of Alessandro as being more studio/neutral creates expectations that get propagated through collective subjective impressions. Differences (if any) between Alessandro and Grado are subtle enough to concede to expectation bias.
With that said, the MS-1 always seemed less bright to me than the SR60 or SR225 as well, so go figure :-S I'll admit I'm susceptible to biases though.
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I liked the MS-1s when I had them. The reason I went for them over Grados has something to do with supply in Australia. Grado anything is usually double the USD price. Doesn't happen with Alessandro strangely. For 139AUD, I think they are ok.
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Normalizing for average treble output / aligning the treble curves as much as possible:
Bass of MS-1 /w bowls > SR80i w/ bowls.
Bass of MS-1 /w bowls > SR225 w/ bowls.
Bass of MS-1 /w bowls = HF2 w/ bowls
Bass of MS-1 /w bowls = RS1 w/ bowls
Bass of MS-1 /w bowls = SR80i with comfies
The treble of each above is unique of course.
This is probably why people say the MS-1 is more neutral. It's basically a slightly more wonky HF-2 without the wood/alum cups. It all comes down the pads the bass masking the effects of the treble.
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Now that you mentioned it, I bought bowl pads for mine.
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Will you be getting the MS1i in the future, purrin? Or do you think that there's virtually no difference between the two?
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I really don't hear a difference between an MS1 and Grado SR80i , both are aggressive and hurtful that I always try to avoid it during 'local' meets.
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I really don't hear a difference between an MS1 and Grado SR80i , both are aggressive and hurtful that I always try to avoid it during 'local' meets.
:)p2