CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: zerodeefex on January 07, 2015, 10:30:08 PM
-
tl;dr: Buy this DAC*. Spot on tonality, perfect timbre, perfect rendition of every freaking detail you could ever want, speed, resolution, I’ve never heard anything like it.
*unless your name is Darryl
(http://i.imgur.com/ZrKYqbSh.jpg)
Intro:
I’d like to preface this review with two caveats:
1. The version of the DAC I demoed was a preproduction unit version.96. The current version (qualified by Schiit a few days ago) is .99. The final unit will be 1.0. There are some minor changes, mainly improved chokes (larger) and revised buffer circuitry that should yield 2 benefits:- Incremental sound improvements
- The DAC will be MUCH quicker to warm up (takes ~6 hours on this unit)
2. I’m an HD800 nut. It was my first real flagship purchase and remains my favorite to this day. Hearing CEE TEE’s PWD MK2 > Balancing Act > HD800s at a meet caused me to sell my KGSSHV and SR-007 MK1.
A few weeks back, Marv recommended we have two Changstar mini meets for the holidays: one in Southern California at his place on the 20th and one up in Northern California a week later at mine. The 20th came and went and the highlight everyone was raving about was the Yggdrasil. I’ve been looking for a DAC in the sub $15k range for a while and, based on the comments from a few of the folks who attended the meet, the Yggy really competed favorably (and possibly bested) pretty much everything in that price range.
I’ve demoed the MSB Analog and a few others in my home setup, to understand what DACs in that price range offered. I’ve found really good DACs, but nothing that stood so far above the crowd that I could absolutely commit. Hearing the feedback from Marv and crew, I was naturally curious. I’ve been planning on purchasing the Yggdrasil at the various price points discussed for my second setup at work. Given the feedback, I found myself seriously reconsidering if it could find a place as “the DAC” for my main system. Although I had sold my Eddie Current 2A3 MKIV, I was planning on picking up another amp from Craig to pair with the HD800s and so I needed something resolving as heck to pair with it.
After a bit of back and forth with Schiit, Marv confirmed that he could bring a loaner Yggdrasil and Ragnarok up for the meet. The only issue was, this being a preproduction unit, it required being powered on for 6 hours to warm up. Using this as an excuse, I asked if Marv wanted to drop the DAC off the night before the mini meet so I could warm it up and he obliged. As soon as he left, I ran upstairs and plugged it and the Ragnarok into my rack. After a couple of hours of family stuff, I finally got to take a listen.
My first impressions were that it was overly harsh. Detailed and awesome, but really hard to listen to. Initially disappointed, I paused for four hours until everyone was asleep and came back, bringing me to the full 6 hour warm up time recommended by Marv. HOLY CRAP. Fast forward 8 hours, I was bleary eyed and looking at maybe a good 2 hours of sleep before I had to wake up for the meet.
Marv graciously allowed me to keep the unit the following night, giving me a full 48 hours with the DAC in my house. With that much time, I took a look at the equipment left over at my house and decided to put it up against the PWD MK2 (1>2 conversion) that CEE TEE left at my place. I pulled out a stack of my favorite CDs, queued up the redbook and SACD rips from my server, and created an “ULTIMATE TEST PLAYLIST” in JRiver.
Test Setup(s):
(http://i.imgur.com/nyWzTduh.jpg)
Transports:- Intel NUC i3 (fanless case, 19.5V linear power supply); Windows 8.1 + JRiver MC20 (kernel streaming when available)
- Mid 2013 Macbook Pro 15.6" Retina
- SONOS Connect via coax
- Sony XA-5400es
DACs used in this comparison: - Schiit Yggdrasil version .96 (Dec 26th evening -28th)
- PWD MKII (1>2 upgrade) (Dec 27th evening - 28th)
The PWD was graciously loaned by CEE TEE post meet. I had a full night and half a day to test against the Yggy.
Amps tested:- Schiit Ragnarok (Dec 26th evening -28th)
- Eddie Current Balancing Act (Dec 27th evening - 28th)
- SWA Krell Klone
- Brief listens: Schiit Magni 2 Uber, Leckerton UHA-6s MKII, Triad L3 Lion
Given I only had two days, most listening was done with the Ragnarok, Balancing Act, and Klone.
Headphones tested: - Mostly HD800 (both with rug line halfway through)
- Abyss (modded)
- Code-X, HP1k (modded)
- UERM
Speakers (brief testing):- Sunfire CRM-2
- Accuracy Audio Monitors
- Triad Silver Sats
Recordings used in comparison (in no particular order): - Michael Tilson Thomas, San Francisco Symphony Orchestra - Mahler: Symphony No. 1
- Muddy Waters - Folk Singer (MFSL, SACD rip, and HDTracks releases)
- Tupac - All Eyez on Me (2005 remaster)
- Martha Argerich - 1965 Legendary Chopin Recording (Japanese SACD rip and redbook rip)
- Gil Shaham - Prokofiev: Violin Concerto No.1 & 2
- Argerich & Rabinovitch - Rachmaninov: Suites for Piano Nos. 1 & 2 Opp 5 &17 / Symphonic Dances Op.45, l
- Fairfield Four - I Couldn't Hear Nobody Pray
- Rodrigo y Gabriela - Live in Japan
- Tedeschi Trucks Band - Everybody’s Talkin’
- Bill Evans- Conversations with Myself
- Queyras - Bach Cello Suites
- Robert Rich -trances and dances
- Sonny Terry & Brownie McGhee - back to new orleans
- Daft Punk - Random Access Memories
I tried to listen to full albums as time permitted, switching between tracks and level matching whenever possible.
DAC-Off:
Yggdrasil:
(http://i.imgur.com/uNhWofuh.jpg)
You have R2R DACs that claim to be 24 or even 32 bits. None of them are monotonic to that point. Even the MSB DACs that claim 24 “true” bits aren’t truly bit perfect. MSB’s bold claims that their 80-bit digital filter completely eliminates round off errors may or may not be technically true, but it is still doing this by continually running a series of approximations (very very good approximations) at a very high resolution. “Effective” bits are not the same as true bits of resolution.
Schiit's quest for accuracy led them to finding DAC chips suitable for military and medical use where extreme accuracy is required. I was initially skeptical of this approach, even after reading Mike’s posts in the big thread on Head-Fi. What would extreme exactness gain? I work in the consumer electronics and software space and our tolerances, while very tight, are still never completely exact, even on the most popular of devices and it’s effectively impossible to notice in most cases.
Well, after my time with the Yggdrasil, it became clear that this complete dedication to exactness across every part of the signal path in the DAC really paid off.
The first thing I noticed with the Yggy, even before my comparison to the PWD, was a significantly higher noise floor in some recordings than I enjoy; it really made old recordings initially difficult to listen to compared to the PWD. A coworker of mine worked at a music conservancy in another lifetime and sold me her collection of rare and out of print classical CDs (around 500) and a lot of my favorite recordings are recorded and mastered mediocrely at best.
Thankfully, with the PWD to compare against, I confirmed that, although there was often a lot more noise and grit, there were also a lot more little details coming out. Feet tapping, little intakes of breath, the space between notes was easier to make out, and instruments really sounded more instrument-ey. If miked okay and not edited, I can actually get a sense of space inside the orchestra depending on how the recording was made.
All of this detail was super noticeable in complex passages with a lot of instruments playing simultaneously. As music get dense, it’s super easy to pick individual instruments and how they fit in with the whole. This is the first DAC I’ve ever heard that continually had my system fading away. Not only did noises surface that made me look around thinking they were in the room with me, but really complex music passages were rendered perfectly. One area where I’ve found pretty much every other DAC I’ve used falls short is fading to the background during complicated or busy sections of classical recordings. With the Yggdrasil, it was the closest I’ve come to sitting in the audience in Benaroya or Davies Symphony Hall with headphones.
Although the detail was not super “in your face” as some DACs I’ve heard, issues in recordings and degraded analog tape with pops, noise, etc sounded really obvious. Bad tape sounded bad on the Yggy. Not all recordings were a problem, but some that sat around for 30 years prior to master (Argerich) were noticeably noisier, especially on the Ragnarok. HOWEVER, this did not degrade my enjoyment. At no point does the Yggdrasil sound clinical and neutered. It's tonally rich and full bodied. If anything, for me, additional detail makes bad recordings and masters sound more enjoyable.
The second major item that became very apparent was that the HD800s sound rather harsh at the high volumes I use for gear evaluation. It was unlistenable at these loud testing volumes (a habit I picked up from Marv and Mike at a meet) with the Yggdrasil (and every other DAC) through the BA, Klone and Ragnarok. It was fine through speakers or with other headphones, but the sound, while detailed, was way too hot up top. I eventually modded my HD800s with rug liner right at the start of my second evening with the Yggdrasil. This improved the overall tonal balance of my system of all three amps and enabled me to critically listen. I previously used much thicker rug liner and I wasn’t a fan, but the exact rug liner mentioned by Marv in the Anax 2.0/Rabid Dawg mod thread is great.
In terms of background, the Yggdrasil really has a crazy super duper black background. Music and sound feels like it’s lifting out of a perfectly still space which really makes the little details shine. It also adds to realism of the listening experience. The PWD was really good in this area, better than any of my other sources, but it still didn’t compare.
Interestingly, despite the detailed nature of the DAC, the tonal balance skews a little toward the warm side and the Yggdrasil has a lot more bass weight, slam, and definition than the PWD. Voices sound a lot more natural and both well recorded male and female vocals are fucking sublime. It absolutely kills with groups like the Fairfield Four.
Additionally, the combination of the Yggdrasil and Ragnarok, while producing the best sound I’ve heard out of the Abyss, really shows how much more resolving the HD800 is than anything I have on hand. The UERM, Abyss, and HP1k were left behind.
As far as observations from different albums, here are some specific things I noticed on some of the recordings I used in the comparison:
- On Tupac - All Eyez on Me, I was really shocked to be able to discern where a few tracks were stitched together. There’s also a little mic noise in some places. I thought I was going nuts, but the DAC really makes the inconsistency in mastering quality on the album apparent.
- With Rodrigo y Gabriela - Live in Japan, the spatial imaging of the audience noises was bonkers. I swear I could hear someone fart if they were in the first 3 rows. Gabriela was doing something weird to keep pace during a couple of the tracks, I am unsure if she’s tapping or what, but it’s different than the percussive stuff she does and was actually really cool to notice for the first time.
- On Everybody’s Talkin’ the localization of the performers on stage is easier to pick out. I can tell when I’m hearing someone through another person’s mic. Also, the recording sounds more like a really good concert than a recording.
- With Queyras, the recording sounds great, but slightly neutered. Not over-exaggerated stage (the sense of space seems to be more exaggerated on this recording with PWD for some reason). This CD actually confused me, because I preferred it on the PWD, despite strings sounding overall better on the Yggdrasil.
- Back to New Orleans was one of the albums with just absolutely mediocre to terrible mastering. However, I’ve never heard this album sound so good. Despite the flaws coming through, the recording sound a lot more natural. I really love old blues so this was a good confirmation for me.
PWD MKII (1>2):
(http://i.imgur.com/6tMpKqMh.jpg)
I covered a lot of my observations in the previous section, but I’ll add some more here.
The first is that the PWD I tested had crap for a USB implementation. Coax from the SONOS and SACD player were leagues better.
Surprisingly, the unit was really solid in tone compared to Yggdrasil, and seemed slightly less warm. I preferred the Yggdrasil, but it was closer than I expected in terms of tone.
The treble was definitely a little funny and the Schiit sounds a lot more natural in the treble region with cymbals, the higher sopranos, and instruments like the flute sounding way more realistic.
I was actually a secret plankton disbeliever before this review. However, hearing the PWD against the other DACs I had on hand showed off a lot of little details I never noticed. Switching to the Yggdrasil, it was even more dramatic with the PWD having a lower noise floor on old recordings and little details more blurry.
In terms of mids, they are actually quite good on the PWD, especially with the Balancing Act, but still don’t sound as pristinely rendered as on the Yggdrasil. It’s controlled but sounds a little lifeless when moving back and forth between setups, especially with vocals north of middle C. I actually really enjoy the upper mids, on the PWD, finding the transition between mids and treble to sound really coherent.
With regard to bass, the PWD has great bass clarity, but it’s lacking slam compared to the Yggdrasil, with tracks with sub-bass lacking that kick you in the chest feeling you get with the Yggy.
My final thought on the PWD MK2 is that bad recordings, while bad sounding, don't seem so far away from the best of the best. The BEST recordings don't seem to reach the same level of realism as they do on the Yggdrasil so a 320kbps stream of a brickwalled album that was mastered and recorded like shit doesn't seem as bad. The slightly less aggressive, in your face presentation combined with just a bit less detail in poorly recorded/mastered material makes it still a phenomenal choice for those of you who aren’t interested in hearing every little bit of a recording. I don't know who you are, though, because, as I mentioned in the HF thread on the Yggy, "You can hear more of the crap with bad recordings, but it also exposes more detail which I actually find makes poor recordings more interesting and involving. Some of my favorites are really poorly mastered old blues albums like OOP sonny terry and brownie mcghee albums...."
Conclusion:
I have found the end to my own personal DAC search.
I firmly believe Schiit’s claim that the Yggdrasil “resets the bar for DACs” to be accurate. Without DSD support, without nose-shaping, the Yggdrasil shames every DAC I’ve had the pleasure of auditioning. Forget high res files, I don’t think I’ve ever truly heard 16 perfect bits before.
The Yggdrasil really kicks ass: gobs of detail, from the particular character of tizzy noise of the tape in a Tom Petty recording (yes you could hear it), to the quick little breaths (not the big ones) Gil Shaham takes as he’s getting into something extremely complicated, it’s all there. Perfect tonality, with bass hitting hard and deep, Isaac 'Dickie' Freeman’s voice really comes alive when listening. The sense of space is ridiculous; I can pick out where the audience members are cheering from in Live in Japan.
I think exploring my experiences with my system now that the Yggdrasil is gone from my rack is the best way to understand how phenomenal a DAC the Yggy really is. All of my music feels a little lifeless and I can't find myself enjoying the same recordings that I listened to during my extended audition. Details are just missing (I'm straining to find them and coming up short) and that sense of cohesiveness and realism I got with the Yggdrasil is just gone. A week and a half after it's gone and I'm a ruined man.
The PWD is a great DAC, the Geek Pulse and Geek Out SE + LPS are great DACs, hell, the MSB Analog I spent a week with in my system was a really great DAC, but the Yggdrasil is in a completely different league. This DAC is a day one purchase for me.
-
Sweeeet!
So, is this better than the ODAC?
...sorry couldn't resist, sounds like a pretty impressive bit of kit. The need to warm it up for 6 hours is...interesting. I don't think I'd have the patience to wait 6 minutes let alone 6 hours.
-
I didn't really have to exhibit much patience. I listened after 2 hours, was impressed but also a little skeptical. I had a bunch of meet prep to do so it was easy to wait another 4 before sitting down in earnest.
The production unit will heat up pretty darn fast. None of this 6 hours of waiting.
-
Thanks for the review, ZD. I'm not sure if Yggy would be the right dac for me in the future, but I'd love to hear it one of these days.
-
Well, the other caveat I should have added: if you're afraid of a distracting level of detail and ONLY if you own the HD800s, don't buy a Ragnarok with the Yggdrasil:
- My Klone is more resolving than both my previous balanced Dynahi and the GSX MK2's I've used and the worst of the worst recordings sounded great on it. I'm not 100% certain because I don't have the MKIV on hand, but I am pretty sure the Ragnarok is more resolving than my first gen 2A3 MKIV. I suspect only the 445 and the Levi + the new 2A3 MKIV would be able to give it a run for it's money.
- The Abyss, UERM, Code-X, and HP1k are the next set of most resolving headphones I own and it wasn't distracting on them either.
When I get my new set of philharmonic speakers from Dennis Murphy and the Yggdrasil is released, I'll test those as well. I had no problems with any speakers.
-
Meh, clearly just a hype-man.
Seriously, this is a good review, and helpful in telling me that this may not be what I am looking for while simultaneously telling me how amazing it is.
-
Thanks for the preview/review! Am I understanding correctly that you wouldn't recommend the HD800's with the Rag/Yggy combo due to overwhelming detail? I was thinking of looking into headphones again with the HD800's at the top of my list because of the quality of the Ragnarok.
-
He's telling you that the Rag+Yggy is tonally neutralish, so a stock HD800 will sound bright and without warmth and/or extra mid-bass heft.
-
I'm buying that exact combo for my HD800s. I'm going to make some edits. I actually personally prefer the yggy with every recording. I was trying to appease people who think detail is bad.
I've heard performers fart live mid song at the mountain winery. It never took away from my immersion.
-
I actually personally prefer the yggy with every recording. I was trying to appease people who think detail is bad.
That's bullshit. In terms of plankton, most people who are below Audiophile level 44 have never heard it. (Evidently zd has just dinged level 45). They may think they have heard true plankton, but in reality they have only heard 10%-15% of it with most typical DACs I see at meets, or have heard SABRE plankton (which has a decent level of plankton, just that it comes with all sorts of treble artifacts and shit.) So they associate "detail" with that nasty false detail that DACs like the Benchmark or ODAC shit out. It's not the same thing. Think hires display on your smartphones when they first came out, e.g., Apple Retina, etc; not nasty photoshop sharpening. I've never heard anyone bitch at hires displays. Well, maybe Tari.
People need to stop forgetting that this is an resistor ladder DAC after all. This means body, growls, heft, timbral complexity without hashy-treble or grainy-treble shit. In terms of temporal-smoothness and fluidity, the Yggy does not impart this if the A-D / mastering process fucked it up in the first place. Get a TDA154x NOS based DAC, Metrum Octave, vintage SF, etc. if you want a DAC that smooths over everything. The one last thing I wanted to add is that the Yggy does not have the syrupy bass or rolled-off nature (the extent of which vary) of most PCM1704 DACs out there.
People also need to get over the fact that it's not NOS. NOS @44.1kHz = nasty brickwall filter with roll-off in the audio band = most definitely NOT the original signal. There is this mistaken notion that NOS is somehow the purest representation of the signal. The DSP / digital filter on the Yggy is an updated for 2015 version of the DSP in the Theta Gen V. The Gen V has the deepest most realistic holographic soundstage that I have ever heard from a DAC. Seriously, NOS guys should go lick their 2D soundstage.
-
at what price point does it become wiser to buy a human trafficked slave from the Czech Republic and send her for music lessons instead of all this digital crap?
-
About the price of a MSB Diamond DAC. And even then, Czech girl probably can't sing like Muddy Waters or Eva Cassidy.
P.S. Who is Darryl?
-
Excellent!
Thanks for these insights… :thumb
I suspect that Jggy will both astound and frustrate, depending upon the rest of the system in total.
And as I stated before, for a piece of gear to evoke an emotional reaction, in the first place, 'all by itself', tells me it simply HAS to have so much right to begin with.
Your evaluation confirms this, in spades. :thumb :thumb
The Anax mod v.2 is the best of that lineage, but IMHO, if you REALLY want to uncork your 800's, do the SAA hardwire and mod to them.
"In a completely different league" indeed.
JJ
-
Maybe Marv or others who have heard the Yggy with speakers can answer this question:
I'm aware that the Yggy may not be for everyone when it comes to headphones, but how is it when paired with speakers? Are the concerns with the Yggy applicable to speakers, especially concerning lower quality recordings?
-
at what price point does it become wiser to buy a human trafficked slave from the Czech Republic and send her for music lessons instead of all this digital crap?
I'm sure some of those mail order Russian brides can come with music packages preinstalled.
-
Maybe Marv or others who have heard the Yggy with speakers can answer this question:
I'm aware that the Yggy may not be for everyone when it comes to headphones, but how is it when paired with speakers? Are the concerns with the Yggy applicable to speakers, especially concerning lower quality recordings?
It's not at all that the Yggy makes bad recordings sound worse. Bad recordings are still rendered better on Yggy than say than Mytek, Yulong, Hugo, even Gungnir, Master 7, Gen V.
The issue becomes that Yggy makes great recordings that I have like Muddy Waters MFSL, Midnight Oil, some remastered Stanley Black, REM MFSL, etc. so much more spectacular that it becomes difficult to hear the inferior recordings. This is speaking from both the Theta Gen V DAC (essentially the predecessor of the Yggy) and Yggy experiences on my speaker rig(s).
Now I know people who like the NOS-ancient-R2R-chip sound - that's different - people who like digital setups that emulate mediocre vinyl rigs should stay away. The biggest question may be for people who already have something in-between like an AMR-DP777 or Resolution Cantata and are happy with that. But my stance has always been do not upgrade if you are happy.
-
Speaking of the AMR DP-777, it's on top of my to-listen-then-to-buy list at the moment. I can't resist the prospect of the Yggy satisfying me at a lower price point though. Purrin, can you expand on what you mean by "in-between"? Are you classifying the AMR as in-between NOS-ancient-R2R-chip sound and digital setups emulating mediocre vinyl? Or is it in-between the ancient R2R and the Yggy?
-
latter.
-
It's not at all that the Yggy makes bad recordings sound worse. Bad recordings are still rendered better on Yggy than say than Mytek, Yulong, Hugo, even Gungnir, Master 7, Gen V.
The issue becomes that Yggy makes great recordings that I have like Muddy Waters MFSL, Midnight Oil, some remastered Stanley Black, REM MFSL, etc. so much more spectacular that it becomes difficult to hear the inferior recordings. This is speaking from both the Theta Gen V DAC (essentially the predecessor of the Yggy) and Yggy experiences on my speaker rig(s).
Now I know people who like the NOS-ancient-R2R-chip sound - that's different - people who like digital setups that emulate mediocre vinyl rigs should stay away. The biggest question may be for people who already have something in-between like an AMR-DP777 or Resolution Cantata and are happy with that. But my stance has always been do not upgrade if you are happy.
Thanks Marv. The bolded part should be emphasized more often in this hobby haha.
-
Nice. A review where I actually understood every word.
-
Great review ZD. It is an amazing DAC. At the end of the meet Marv suggeted we try it with my loaner Project Ember amp from Garage 1217 (design by Solerdude and Garage 1217). Played Daphnis et Chole tracks from CEE TEE's MacBook Pro. (I had listened to the same tracks with Rag and my unmodded HD 800's a few minutes earlier.)
Was absolutely blown away by the dynamics and detail, but especially the dynamics. I preferred the combination to the Rag/Yggy. I use the Gungnir normally and the Yggy is a completely different experience. Sound was on par with my home stereo rig. Great piece of gear at any price. Thanks to Jeremy for the loaner Ember!
-
tl;dr: Buy this DAC*
damnit. I was hoping you'd say don't... good review.
-
BONUS: more pics!
http://imgur.com/a/unNTS#ZrKYqbS
-
Can you get a few back/rear pics? Just wonder in/out options. Thanks much...
-
nope, don't have the unit anymore. Has USB, coax, optical, and other inputs that I didn't use.
There were at least as many outputs as the Gungnir.
-
Obviously this thing falls short in a very disappointing way: what's the point in being able to hear musicians farting if you can't smell them too? )(
tl;dr: I'm just trying to make myself feel better about not being able to afford this thing. Thanks for the great review :money:
-
ZD, thanks for the impressions! Very nice read. Really hoping to get my hands on one to test in the future. But, based on what you said, I think I'd eventually just like to own one for the sake of what it brings to the table along with another DAC more for just laid-back listening (NOS garbage, probably).
-
Thanks ZD, I have to recast my budget. Question: Since I am a one-dimensional classic rock type of guy (and don't recognize 99% of the names that you listed as test tracks) any opinions on the Yggy/Rag combo for the genre?
-
You'll be fine with many classic rock recordings from MSFL, DCC, and AF.
-
Hoffman CCR set was sublime. I listened to a ton of stones SACD rips as well. Also awesome
-
Now you guys are talking. Thanks. Just shudder at the thought of paying customs duty in India for the Yggy. I am taking delivery of an Odyssey Stratos amp today. Paid $800. Duty $270.
-
Thanks ZD, I have to recast my budget.
Call me if that results in the availability of a used Gungnir! I will be seriously interested.
-
Great write up. Very enjoyable read - especially the comments. I should get to hear the new Hugo TT soon and I will be buying the Yggy so I can post some impressions if anyone is interested.
-
Very interesting and insightful review. Thks for taking the time.
Yggy is definitely on my radar but I'm still not convinced so much resolution is what I look for. It will depend of what I plan for my HD800 Sytem. If I decide to make the HD800 my headphone of choice for critical listening, maybe I'll consider more seriously the Iggy. After all, I listen mostly to good recorded/mastered music. Ok it's not that expensive but it's still a lot of money to save so, it will let me enough time to read impressions from other trustable ears here or there and take my own decision in a few month.
One question but it's maybe a bit soon to have answer : I saw Yggy has Three outputs ? 2 X RCA and 1X XLR ? Do SE outputs use the full potential of the dac ? many amps I consider ( My DNA Sonett for now but I'm considering currently the Stratus or the EC 2A3 mkIV as my current favorite candidate for a end-game rig for my HD800) don't provide Balanced inputs ;)
Second question : Do you think the Iggy needs an absolute stellar amps to shine ? Does something like my Sonett can allow me to benefit from most of what the Iggy is capable of ?
Last question (for now) : Can we use more than one amp simultaneously from the Iggy ?
-
Hey Zero, great writeup! Really enjoyed it. This line in particular: "Forget high res files, I don’t think I’ve ever truly heard 16 perfect bits before." This is the feeling I've had as I've obtained new headphones, heard better gear...you realize there is tons of nuance hidden away in the mediocre 1990 classical CD because it is (thankfully) pretty much a straight tape transfer.
Greatly looking forward to hearing one of these. I have my Pulse Xfi coming relatively soon and my plan is to stick with it until I can afford a Yggy.
-
One question but it's maybe a bit soon to have answer : I saw Yggy has Three outputs ? 2 X RCA and 1X XLR ? Do SE outputs use the full potential of the dac ? many amps I consider ( My DNA Sonett for now but I'm considering currently the Stratus or the EC 2A3 mkIV as my current favorite candidate for a end-game rig for my HD800) don't provide Balanced inputs ;)
Second question : Do you think the Iggy needs an absolute stellar amps to shine ? Does something like my Sonett can allow me to benefit from most of what the Iggy is capable of ?
Last question (for now) : Can we use more than one amp simultaneously from the Iggy ?
- I asked Jason about the SE outputs. He said they are summed from the balanced signal. They didn't cheat by just taking one leg of the balanced like on some other DACs.
- Normally, the adage that DAC don't make a huge difference is true, especially at the low-end. At the meet, Ringingears heard the Rag/Yggy stack and pointed to the Rag "I gotta get me one of those". I told him that it was 70% the Yggy and 30% the Rag; and that he should try his "modest" Project Ember amp with the Yggy's SE outs to confirm. Turns out I was right. Yggy stands head and shoulders above many other DACs. Keep in mind that Ringingears brought his Wadia CDP/DAC to the meet, which is no slouch either.
- Sonett should be just good enough. Stratus is better of course - it adds intangibles which are hard to describe.
-
SE output is fucking phenomenal. Used it with my Klone :P . Switched back and forth on the BA, I might be deaf, but I didn't notice a clear difference.
- Normally, the adage that DAC don't make a huge difference is true, especially at the low-end. At the meet, Ringingears heard the Rag/Yggy stack and pointed to the Rag "I gotta get me one of those". I told him that it was 70% the Yggy and 30% the Rag; and that he should try his "modest" Project Ember amp with the Yggy's SE outs to confirm. Turns out I was right. Yggy stands head and shoulders above many other DACs. Keep in mind that Ringingears brought his Wadia CDP/DAC to the meet, which is no slouch either.
You're putting this lightly. It blew his fucking mind. Did you see? He had the crazy eyes aferwards.
-
It's a non-starter... no DSD! What? I deleted all my non-DSD files early last year. Life with 6 albums is so much easier. Would be better with DSD.
-
It's a non-starter... no DSD! What? I deleted all my non-DSD files early last year. Life with 6 albums is so much easier. Would be better with DSD.
All jokes aside, one thing I should have added to my review, I have more DSD content than probably 99% of DSD advocates. I own several hundred SACDs, all of them are ripped to ISOs on my server. It's still just a fraction of my music collection.
DSD converted to PCM on the fly in JRiver sounded better on the Yggy than it has on any DAC that I've heard that supported DSD natively.
-
Just a note on the JRiver DSD noise filter options (yes, DSD is mostly noise past 24kHz). The filter settings may sound different. YMMV. The default settings are different from MC17 to MC20.
-
facepalm
It's a non-starter... no DSD! What? I deleted all my non-DSD files early last year. Life with 6 albums is so much easier. Would be better with DSD.
Just Like I did myself mate. The Only album I kept is "Jazz at the Pawnshop" . I listen to it all day long. facepalm
Thks for the Input Marv' and Zerodeefex. :money: That's indeed great news. What about the possibilty to use several amps together ? Does it run warm ?
-
All jokes aside, one thing I should have added to my review, I have more DSD content than probably 99% of DSD advocates. I own several hundred SACDs, all of them are ripped to ISOs on my server. It's still just a fraction of my music collection.
DSD converted to PCM on the fly in JRiver sounded better on the Yggy than it has on any DAC that I've heard that supported DSD natively.
We actually discussed, mostly jokingly, adding a routine to convert DSD to PCM in Yggy. There's probably enough space in the DSP.
However, this is not what DSD is about (although it's pretty much the same as most DACs that support "native DSD," as it is converted to an intermediate multibit format before conversion--there are only a handful of chips that support DSD as its original 1-bit format, and a couple of DACs that don't use chips and retain the original single-bit bitstream.)
So that's not happening.
-
Thks for the Input Marv' and Zerodeefex. :money: That's indeed great news. What about the possibilty to use several amps together ? Does it run warm ?
Ran from SE and balanced outs same time no problem. I assume the x2 SE outs is paralleled? (Jason question). So depends upon the load of your amps. Don't know output impedance of the SE outs. Shouldn't be a problem though with the typical input impedance of most amps' line-ins.
Yggy does get warm, but not anywhere near Rag.
-
Ran from SE and balanced outs same time no problem. I assume the x2 SE outs is paralleled? (Jason question). So depends upon the load of your amps. Don't know output impedance of the SE outs. Shouldn't be a problem though with the typical input impedance of most amps' line-ins.
Yep, SE outs are just paralleled, 75 ohm output impedance.
-
Thks .. So it's Time to save Money and wait more impressions when the Iggy will be finally released ;) .
-
Any idea about how it would pair with some Stax ?
Ali
-
Jazzfan got to the meet early. He had some time with his 727 > KGSSHV. He mentioned it was a definite purchase for him.
-
I don't think this has been addressed/asked yet - can you guys who have experience with the DAC give impressions on the USB implementation on the Yggy? Did it respond to 3rd party USB converters such as the OR5, or even Schiit's own Wyrd? Or does it have a USB implementation that doesn't need such ancillaries to shine?
-
Thanks for the review. I have to say, the part that stood out for me the most was when zerodeefex said he had to mod his HD800 again because he couldn't stand to listen at higher volumes. :D
And I see that the Yggdrasil will be using the same chassis as the Ragnarok. Not to be a downer but as someone who has limited desk space, I do hope that Schiit will consider finding ways to shrink them into smaller form factors. People who own hi-fi equipment might be okay with these sizes but I think if you are able to make them smaller, you will be able to make them more accessible to a bigger demographic.
-
Thanks Zerodeef. I'm waiting for a BHSE to pair with my SR-009 and SR-007 mk1, and I'm also on the path of finding the good source.
Ali
-
I don't think this has been addressed/asked yet - can you guys who have experience with the DAC give impressions on the USB implementation on the Yggy? Did it respond to 3rd party USB converters such as the OR5, or even Schiit's own Wyrd? Or does it have a USB implementation that doesn't need such ancillaries to shine?
Will do in a bit when I get home.
-
I don't think this has been addressed/asked yet - can you guys who have experience with the DAC give impressions on the USB implementation on the Yggy? Did it respond to 3rd party USB converters such as the OR5, or even Schiit's own Wyrd? Or does it have a USB implementation that doesn't need such ancillaries to shine?
USB implementation is rock solid. fiddling in jriver, using a split USB cable with 5V from a linear power supply, and the wyrd offered no improvements. It was great in general.
Thanks for the review. I have to say, the part that stood out for me the most was when zerodeefex said he had to mod his HD800 again because he couldn't stand to listen at higher volumes. :D
And I see that the Yggdrasil will be using the same chassis as the Ragnarok. Not to be a downer but as someone who has limited desk space, I do hope that Schiit will consider finding ways to shrink them into smaller form factors. People who own hi-fi equipment might be okay with these sizes but I think if you are able to make them smaller, you will be able to make them more accessible to a bigger demographic.
I removed the rug liner from my HD800s last night and listened with the pulse + LPS > Klone. Same problem at super loud volumes. I just don't listen that loudly unless I'm doing a comparison so it wasn't a problem until I sat down to critically compare gear.
With regard to the size, this is a no-compromise, box. Mike has said this is the best DAC he knows how to make. If size, weight, color, etc are serious enough concerns for you, this might not meet your needs. It sounds fucking amazing and I haven't heard anything that's close in my price range so it's right for me.
-
Heard Yggy proto with following "sources":
- OR4 with turboclocks;
- Wyrd+ OR5 no turboclocks (note OR stock has better regulators compared to OR4);
- built-in Gen 2 USB.
Mostly sounded the same. I may have preferred USB by a small margin because it sounded like it had more body. #1 OR4 with the turboclocks sounded the most lean. That could either be a turbo-clock effect or because it only had 3-4 hours warm-up compared to the USB sessions later which had 5-6 hours warm-up. There was no sacrifice in resolution, precision, dynamics with the USB.
Bottom line is that it was too close between #2 and #3. Heck, it was close overall even with #1 in the mix - nothing like say the differences on an AGD M7, which sounds seriously gimped without OR5 or even with an inferior converter, e.g. Ciunas.
Keep in mind that Yggy has some of the Wyrd enhancements built-in. The final caveat is that production units will supposedly use the new generation of the C-Media USB chip which is supposed to be sonically better. So yeah, will be happy to ditch the OR5.
-
With regard to the size, this is a no-compromise, box. Mike has said this is the best DAC he knows how to make. If size, weight, color, etc are serious enough concerns for you, this might not meet your needs. It sounds fucking amazing and I haven't heard anything that's close in my price range so it's right for me.
From a personal perspective, I probably can re-arrange my desk to make space for it. I have not seen how the internals of the Yggdrasil or Ragnarok look like when it is in the chassis so I have no idea if there is any spare room for easy shrinkage. As someone who admires and understands why Apple wants everything to be as small as possible, if Schiit can improve further on the size aspect without compromising on the audio quality, it would be swell.
-
From a personal perspective, I probably can re-arrange my desk to make space for it. I have not seen how the internals of the Yggdrasil or Ragnarok look like when it is in the chassis so I have no idea if there is any spare room for easy shrinkage. As someone who admires and understands why Apple wants everything to be as small as possible, if Schiit can improve further on the size aspect without compromising on the audio quality, it would be swell.
This is the Rag from Schiit's own site:
(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/ragnarok%20internal%201000.jpg)
-
From a personal perspective, I probably can re-arrange my desk to make space for it. I have not seen how the internals of the Yggdrasil or Ragnarok look like when it is in the chassis so I have no idea if there is any spare room for easy shrinkage. As someone who admires and understands why Apple wants everything to be as small as possible, if Schiit can improve further on the size aspect without compromising on the audio quality, it would be swell.
If they could have, they would have. The size is not random choice. Many things in physics can NOT be replaced by downsizing.
Primary emphasis on form factor is inevitably a compromised choice and will never yield best possible performance.
-
Crappy image from HF resized with secret algorithms. Yggy's based on very modular platform with a huge motherboard. The upgrade-ability aspect is one reason why it's so big. Two huge oversized transformers, and a choke (going to be bigger when prod.); DSP board; SPDIF board, USB board. D-A and analog out board. Probably a bunch of shunt type power supply circuits, hence the heat and wattage suckage (more than the typical DAC). All boards on risers.
-
If they could have, they would have. The size is not random choice. Many things in physics can NOT be replaced by downsizing.
Primary emphasis on form factor is inevitably a compromised choice and will never yield best possible performance.
The size of the Yggy is a bit disappointing, on my planned portable rig I already am lugging around 2 car batteries. It's gonna suck that I will have to lug around the Rag as well, I think I may be over the 100 lb mark already.
-
The size of the Yggy is a bit disappointing, on my planned portable rig I already am lugging around 2 car batteries. It's gonna suck that I will have to lug around the Rag as well, I think I may be over the 100 lb mark already.
Have you tried an iPhone? I've been told any perceived differences would be in your head. Or you could try a new diet.
-
the contractor just completed an addition to the west wing of my trailer, and my bid on the local nuclear plant to power the Yggy should be approved by mid-next week.
my ears will never be the same.
nor would my home. would it ever grace the doorway.
-
I kinda wonder why Schiit loves using EI transformers... :-Z
-
Fully support this thread. Just waiting for the day they ship.
-
the contractor just completed an addition to the west wing of my trailer, and my bid on the local nuclear plant to power the Yggy should be approved by mid-next week.
my ears will never be the same.
nor would my home. would it ever grace the doorway.
Or maybe you could use the Yggy to power a city? Yeah! Objective logic. Woohoo!!
-
Have you tried an iPhone? I've been told any perceived differences would be in your head. Or you could try a new diet.
That's pretty low I am a bit sensitive about my weight.
-
That's pretty low I am a bit sensitive about my weight.
I didn't say what kind of diet. ;)
-
I didn't say what kind of diet. ;)
Oh good, I thought my shirt may have been too tight.
-
Heard Yggy proto with following "sources":
- OR4 with turboclocks;
- Wyrd+ OR5 no turboclocks (note OR stock has better regulators compared to OR4);
- built-in Gen 2 USB.
Mostly sounded the same. I may have preferred USB by a small margin because it sounded like it had more body. #1 OR4 with the turboclocks sounded the most lean. That could either be a turbo-clock effect or because it only had 3-4 hours warm-up compared to the USB sessions later which had 5-6 hours warm-up. There was no sacrifice in resolution, precision, dynamics with the USB.
Bottom line is that it was too close between #2 and #3. Heck, it was close overall even with #1 in the mix - nothing like say the differences on an AGD M7, which sounds seriously gimped without OR5 or even with an inferior converter, e.g. Ciunas.
Keep in mind that Yggy has some of the Wyrd enhancements built-in. The final caveat is that production units will supposedly use the new generation of the C-Media USB chip which is supposed to be sonically better. So yeah, will be happy to ditch the OR5.
This is great to hear. This is one factor which really sets the Yggy up there on my list. The lack of a need to explore USB optimization is priceless. Hopefully whoever is in possession at this moment can do some further experimentation to buttress Purrin's point.
All the same, thanks to everyone who is taking time to assess and provide insight. Can't thank you enough.
-
SE output is fucking phenomenal. Used it with my Klone :P . Switched back and forth on the BA, I might be deaf, but I didn't notice a clear difference.
You're putting this lightly. It blew his fucking mind. Did you see? He had the crazy eyes aferwards.
Ringingears mind still blown. Robert also gave a listen, he preferred the Ember to the Rag with the Yggy, as did I.
Changed tube on amp when I got home. Would love to hear the Yggy with this tube. IMHO, you don't have to own an expensive amp to get great sound from this DAC. I had a Wadia CDP/DAC, R2R at the meet, Yggy had the best of both, IMHO, YMMV and all that.
-
Ringingears mind still blown. Robert also gave a listen, he preferred the Ember to the Rag with the Yggy, as did I.
Changed tube on amp when I got home. Would love to hear the Yggy with this tube. IMHO, you don't have to own an expensive amp to get great sound from this DAC. I had a Wadia CDP/DAC, R2R at the meet, Yggy had the best of both, IMHO, YMMV and all that.
Preferred to it the Rag in what way? Details please.
-
Preferred to it the Rag in what way? Details please.
Oh yes please, I have the Ember but have not heard the Rag. This would be very helpful, thanks.
-
After getting a mixer I might be looking for another dac.... how much is this suppose to go for? Balanced connectors?
-
how much is this suppose to go for? Balanced connectors?
$2299, yes (I believe)
-
Marv, how does the Yggy compare to the Bricasti?
-
$2299, yes (I believe)
Wtf man...forget that haha.
-
For you the $2300 is nuts. This DAC isn't for the price sensitive.
For folks like myself or another officer I know who was also ready to throw down $10k for the next level of DAC, this is a damn bargain :).
-
Marv, how does the Yggy compare to the Bricasti?
Yggy destroys the Bricasti. It meets or exceeds the Bricasti in technicalities (attack, pace, dynamics, and esp. resolution), but it doesn't have the Bricasti's very obvious delta-sigma signature (treble hash, grain). Don't get me wrong, the Bricasti is really good, and while "delta-sigma" sounding, the Bricasti manages to be not annoying, unlike Sabre. It's hard to describe. There's definitely an AD1955 sound and I appreciate why a lot of people like it.
It's just Yggy's more natural multi-bit or R2R (I really don't know if the internals are? R2R, R string, etc. but similar ideas) type of presentation with a better sense of body and growl (not always prevalent, but only when music calls for it) and equivalent or superior technicalities make it a better DAC than the Bricasti M1. Being five thousand dollars cheaper doesn't hurt either.
For you the $2300 is nuts. This DAC isn't for the price sensitive.
For folks like myself or another officer I know who was also ready to throw down $10k for the next level of DAC, this is a damn bargain :) .
I didn't know you too had a $10-15K slush fund for an MSB DAC either. I'm glad I didn't need to go down that road.
-
@Greed. You dumped your Bricasti right? I can shit on it now? Wanna make sure you sold it, otherwise deleting my post above temporarily.
-
I didn't know you too had a $10-15K slush fund for an MSB DAC either. I'm glad I didn't need to go down that road.
Wife made me agree to it when we were getting married. She had me put aside cash since I had this epic amp and a mediocre DAC. If we had found a house that was in a lower price bracket, I was seriously considering the Da Vinci.
The fund is bigger since selling the MK4 but then shrunk a little when I bought the Abyss, haha.
Edit: also, real life and kids is expensive! Wtf, you were supposed to tell me this!!!
-
@Greed. You dumped your Bricasti right? I can shit on it now? Wanna make sure you sold it, otherwise deleting my post above temporarily.
All good here, smash away - I will say I like the Bricasti just not to the level of any of these R2R DACs I've heard in the past months and Ygg's superiority is hard to fathom given cost difference.
BUT, Ygg doesn't do DSD haha... ::)
-
For you the $2300 is nuts. This DAC isn't for the price sensitive.
For folks like myself or another officer I know who was also ready to throw down $10k for the next level of DAC, this is a damn bargain :).
Im cool. I still can manage epic recordings with a goodwill sony tape deck find.
-
For you the $2300 is nuts. This DAC isn't for the price sensitive.
For folks like myself or another officer I know who was also ready to throw down $10k for the next level of DAC, this is a damn bargain :).
The way that I read it here, this is for the price sensitive --- who want to stop feeling that they need to spend in the tens of thousands, and who want to do hifi the old-fashioned way: buy the best they can and then listen to music instead of wondering what to buy next.
Of course, it is still a big heap of money. Big enough that many of the rest of us may never have that much to spend on a component. But at least it feels maybe-one-day-achievable, rather than millionaire lala-land stuff that may or may not actually be worth the added zeroes.
-
Oh great messiahs of Changstar, since I ultimately want a good NOS DAC and then something else to go with it more in line with the Classe DAC-1, just more to my tastes while still having that certain magic, do you think the Yggy would be a good fit for me?
-
Oh great messiahs of Changstar, since I ultimately want a good NOS DAC and then something else to go with it more in line with the Classe DAC-1, just more to my tastes while still having that certain magic, do you think the Yggy would be a good fit for me?
No. Yggy may be too aggressive from how you have been described your preferences and experience with various DACs in the past. My SFT-1 is getting checked up again (some noise and stuff). I think you might like it. Slightly rolled. Tonally dense NOS like, but with deeper stage than most NOS DACs. I'll send it to you for sure in a few weeks when I get it back.
-
Yggy destroys the Bricasti. It meets or exceeds the Bricasti in technicalities (attack, pace, dynamics, and esp. resolution), but it doesn't have the Bricasti's very obvious delta-sigma signature (treble hash, grain). Don't get me wrong, the Bricasti is really good, and while "delta-sigma" sounding, the Bricasti manages to be not annoying, unlike Sabre. It's hard to describe. There's definitely an AD1955 sound and I appreciate why a lot of people like it.
Thanks, I'm sold. I'm missing the resolution from the MSB Analog (though I don't have the power base yet) which is why I'm thinking about the Bricasti. Now you've made my choice an easy one. Hope the Yggy meets or exceeds the dynamics and tonality of the Analog as well (for the price of the power base, or in fact, less).
BUT, Ygg doesn't do DSD haha... ::)
Now that's a game breaker. What will I do with the two DSD recordings I have in my music library? :)p13
-
I on the other hand have ~10TB of DSD ISO's; and I don't give a shit that Yaggy doesn't do DSD.
-
Thanks for those images of the Yggdrasil and Ragnarok internals. Saw the latter on Schiit's site but didn't notice the aluminium base plate that the PCB was attached to. The image of the Yggdrasil is even more illuminating. Time to start the Yggdrasil saving fund. :P
As for DSD, as someone who is fine with 320k mp3s, normal 16-bit lossless formats and who has turned to Spotify to explore new material, I must admit I don't see the appeal of another new format unless you really need it - say, you have a ton of SACDs to archive. I would rank how the material was mastered as far more important though it seems everyone on almost every DSD capable DAC thread seem to be cooing at it now.
-
How does BA and Ragnarok compare on Yggy? Which you felt are better match for yggy and with what headphones?
-
I have a secondary mini review coming. Depends on the headphones and your preferences. I ultimately preferred the smoothness of the BA with the HD800. The BA sounds GOOD. If I could afford to buy CEE TEE's unit, I would, but my money is earmarked for Yggy and a few other purchases before I can get a TOTL tube amp.
-
I ultimately preferred the smoothness of the BA with the HD800.
Compared to what other amp please ?
I heard the BA one time and this amp never ceased to haunt me since. It's like a extremely good old french wine. But the BA I heard was re-tubes with KR PX4 and Tung Sol BGRP and I think it benefited from one or two "upgrades" .
My primary goal is more to purchase a DNA Stratus in two or three years ( maybe more ) but I often wonder if it will make me forget the Balancing Act.
-
ZD,
why are doing this to your poor Indian brethren :'(? Seriously, I'd love to hear how much of a step up the BA is from the ZD (which is what I have now). Without doing any other compares, I keep thinking the ZD is IT for the 800...
-
BA vs Ragnarok vs SWA Klone
ZD,
why are doing this to your poor Indian brethren :'(? Seriously, I'd love to hear how much of a step up the BA is from the ZD (which is what I have now). Without doing any other compares, I keep thinking the ZD is IT for the 800...
Ask CEE TEE. He has a BA and a ZD.
Having owned the ZDSE and MKIV, I can say the rag is one hell of an amp, but the Balancing Act would be my personal preference. Just a damn musical combo.
-
My primary goal is more to purchase a DNA Stratus in two or three years ( maybe more ) but I often wonder if it will make me forget the Balancing Act.
Different but comparable. In general (since tubes will change things) the Stratus is more tubey, on the edge. BA has deeper more expansive stage.
-
Without doing any other compares, I keep thinking the ZD is IT for the 800...
I know more than a few ZD folks upgrading to BA or mk4 or 4-45. ZD is awesome (at least the older one with the oil/paper caps). You can't think it gets any better. Until you move up and it's like holy crap. The ZD is slighty veiled, has a slight sharpness in treble, has slower bass, and isn't as resolving in terms of plankton and microdynamics when compared to the better stuff.
Yeah, it does get better. I am evil.
-
Now that's a game breaker. What will I do with the two DSD recordings I have in my music library? :)p13
I'm sure Schiit will release a DSD to PCM rehash module .. soon :)p8
-
I know more than a few ZD folks upgrading to BA or mk4 or 4-45. ZD is awesome (at least the older one with the oil/paper caps). You can't think it gets any better. Until you move up and it's like holy crap. The ZD is slighty veiled, has a slight sharpness in treble, has slower bass, and isn't as resolving in terms of plankton and microdynamics when compared to the better stuff.
Yeah, it does get better. I am evil.
Alright Marv, I'll put you in the hot seat. I plan on buying the Yggy when it comes out; I already have the Mojo for a HP amp (for the Audez'e) and the Odyssey for my speakers/HE 6. If you had to recommend between the Rag and the EC BA for the 800 which one would it be? Or do I just clean out the inventory and go with the Rag and BA.
-
BA vs Ragnarok vs SWA Klone
Ask CEE TEE. He has a BA and a ZD.
Having owned the ZDSE and MKIV, I can say the rag is one hell of an amp, but the Balancing Act would be my personal preference. Just a damn musical combo.
I have both the BA and the ZD (older one) and Marv really nails this one. The ZD has a euphony that is easily discernable and unlike any other amp I know. In my opinion it is also the more musical amp. The BA plays it a little more straight and betters the ZD on technicalities. More expansive, pinpoint, less hazy sounding, fuller body and better tone. The ZD is also a little bit lit in the upper registers, which can be a problem if you have a brighter source. Despite all this, when you listen to the ZD, you could give a damn about these less than perfect traits. it has that unique engagement factor, which is why I cannot get rid of it.
In a sense the BA gives a more faithful reproduction of music, where the ZD is how we wish our music sounded.
-
As a former ZD owner that is the eventual attraction or downfall of the amp... can you live with the color, because eventually you know it's there.
-
can you live with the color
I couldn't. I like most of Craig's amps, dislike the ZD with pretty much every phone. It's like the AD2000 of amps for me. I simply don't get what's so fascinating about it.
-
Alright Marv, I'll put you in the hot seat. I plan on buying the Yggy when it comes out; I already have the Mojo for a HP amp (for the Audez'e) and the Odyssey for my speakers/HE 6. If you had to recommend between the Rag and the EC BA for the 800 which one would it be? Or do I just clean out the inventory and go with the Rag and BA.
A lot of people overlook the BA because of the 4-45 and 2A3mk4, but the new BA with the Cinemags is much better IMO than the Electraprints. The latest iteration of the BA should really be considered. It still has that organic full bodied quality and lush quality of the old BA, but the overall signature is more cohesive between the bass and the rest of the audio band. The older BA bass was thicker and sort of stuck out. This is most noticeable after hearing the new BA of the newer EC amps. (I definitely noticed this on CEETEE's BA - it's funny how when you hear something better, the old good stuff isn't as awesome anymore.) The newer transformers are also more resolving. SQ technicalities is about on par or better to the first iteration of the 2A3mk4, and just a touch less than 4-45. I think it would make a fine match with the HD800.
If I were doing dynamic headphones only (no speakers), I'd probably go for BA. I sold the 4-45 and am getting a newer 2A3mk4 to drive horns speakers.
-
I have both the BA and the ZD (older one) and Marv really nails this one. The ZD has a euphony that is easily discernable and unlike any other amp I know. In my opinion it is also the more musical amp. The BA plays it a little more straight and betters the ZD on technicalities. More expansive, pinpoint, less hazy sounding, fuller body and better tone. The ZD is also a little bit lit in the upper registers, which can be a problem if you have a brighter source. Despite all this, when you listen to the ZD, you could give a damn about these less than perfect traits. it has that unique engagement factor, which is why I cannot get rid of it.
In a sense the BA gives a more faithful reproduction of music, where the ZD is how we wish our music sounded.
Very well said. This is how the ZD sounds to my ears with a Mullard ECC35. Though I can achieve different sound signatures with the various 6SL7 in the tube library the Mullard currently is spending the most time in the amp.
-
If I were doing dynamic headphones only (no speakers), I'd probably go for BA. I sold the 4-45 and am getting a newer 2A3mk4 to drive horns speakers.
I'm not really into the speaker game yet, but I have the Ragnarok at home for HE-6 duty. As for my office rig, I bought the Teton to replace the 4-45 to get rid of expensive power tubes once and for all. As much as I like EC amps, the tube combinations for the top amps are costly (be it 300Bs, 45s or 2A3s, x4!).
-
A lot of people overlook the BA because of the 4-45 and 2A3mk4, but the new BA with the Cinemags is much better IMO than the Electraprints. The latest iteration of the BA should really be considered. It still has that organic full bodied quality and lush quality of the old BA, but the overall signature is more cohesive between the bass and the rest of the audio band. The older BA bass was thicker and sort of stuck out. This is most noticeable after hearing the new BA of the newer EC amps. (I definitely noticed this on CEETEE's BA - it's funny how when you hear something better, the old good stuff isn't as awesome anymore.) The newer transformers are also more resolving. SQ technicalities is about on par or better to the first iteration of the 2A3mk4, and just a touch less than 4-45. I think it would make a fine match with the HD800.
If I were doing dynamic headphones only (no speakers), I'd probably go for BA. I sold the 4-45 and am getting a newer 2A3mk4 to drive horns speakers.
Thanks Marv...one last query... In general, do you think tube amps don't work that well with ortho-dynamics compared to the electro-dynamics? I've blown out two left drivers with the ZD and XC (I'm not implying that the ZD caused the blow-out). The Lyr did not work that well with the LCD-3 (when I had that HP).
-
If I were doing dynamic headphones only (no speakers), I'd probably go for BA. I sold the 4-45 and am getting a newer 2A3mk4 to drive horns speakers.
[/quote]
What speakers are you using? Did you build them yourself?
-
Using vintage Altec 500Hz horns + 8A? compression drivers. Should be interesting. Tried modern JBL2445 4" compression driver in the past, did some things well, but not good up top running EQ to compensate.
-
Very well said. This is how the ZD sounds to my ears with a Mullard ECC35. Though I can achieve different sound signatures with the various 6SN7 in the tube library the Mullard currently is spending the most time in the amp.
Yup, ZD provides an insiteful window into the various 6SN7 flavors. Funny as I also own a Mullard ECC35 and while it was my preference in the ZD, it sounds awfully dull in the BA. For a while there I wasn't digging my BA with either an AD2000 or the HD800 and after many tweaks I discovered it was the Mullard that was culprit all along.
-
Yup, ZD provides an insiteful window into the various 6SN7 flavors. Funny as I also own a Mullard ECC35 and while it was my preference in the ZD, it sounds awfully dull in the BA. For a while there I wasn't digging my BA with either an AD2000 or the HD800 and after many tweaks I discovered it was the Mullard that was culprit all along.
Interesting. Which 6SL7 do you currently use in your ZD?
-
Those with experience with both the Rag and Yggy: Been eyeing both the Rag and the Yggy for my HD800s, but I'm not sure if I'm prepared yet to purchase both in such close proximity. If I were to purchase one for the time being, which do you think would benefit my rig more?
Currently running Wyrd -> Yulong DA8 -> Bottlehead Crack (speedball) -> HD800.
-
Get rid of the Yulong. It's a POS.
-
odd question: is there a ''buy better gear'' light on yggy?? :)p8
-
Yeah. It's always on. Its called the power LED and the manual doesn't say this, but it indicates "if your system sounds this good, imagine if you upgraded your amp and/or cans/speakers?"
-
Currently running Wyrd -> Yulong DA8 -> Bottlehead Crack (speedball) -> HD800.
Get rid of the Yulong. It's a POS.
Sell it before the 1k$ Sabre box FOTM ends. It will soon enough, then it'll be worthless.
-
odd question: is there a ''buy better gear'' light on yggy?? :)p8
Actually, there is a BBG light...
-
Any news on yggy eta?
-
I would be curious to hear how it stacks up to the MSB DAC's. Since the MSB stuff is so far out of the price range of most people and even most audiophiles...
Appreciate the write-up on this! Interesting to see the history behind this and its relationship to the Theta DAC.
-
I would be curious to hear how it stacks up to the MSB DAC's. Since the MSB stuff is so far out of the price range of most people and even most audiophiles...
Appreciate the write-up on this! Interesting to see the history behind this and its relationship to the Theta DAC.
Stomps the Analog DAC on technicalities. Some might prefer the Analog if they want that thicker tone/timbre which is honestly verging on a romantic coloration to me but tastefully done. I'd say competitive with the Platinum DAC though none of MSB's stuff has ever really impressed me for ultimate resolution. In fact, using the same demo tracks they use I've found that it might be a bit more forgiving than my own headphone rig. Whether that's from the DAC or other aspects of various chains found at various shows, I just feel after 3-4 years of hearing their stuff in various situations I always come away with the same feeling.
I'd say MSB's tuning is more geared toward natural ease of listening without being offensive as too dry and analytical or warm and relaxed. I prefer gear more focused on honesty and transparency to the recording not that their stuff doesn't do that well, it's just not a number one priority based on my listening experiences so far.
-
Thanks! But is that with or without the $10,000 femtoclock upgrade? :-DD
But yeah, I agree. I would prefer honesty from a DAC and let any colorations happen further down the chain.
-
The MSB DACs are mere toys.
There comes a point where words like warm, natural, digital, analog, raspy, romantic, timbre, tone, resolution, dynamics, micro-dynamics, liquid, analytical, organic, involving, soulful, flat, boring, lively, low level information, etc. make absolutely zero, nada, no fucking difference. Yep, no fucking difference. The audiophile's pursuit, at least from my point of view and I know Anax is of the same opinion, is to recreate the musical performance to be as true as possible to the real thing - to fake us out into thinking it IS the REAL thing.
The Yggy does that. It is the most REAL source I have ever heard. We are talking about v0.99 (essentially what the production model will be) which I was finally able to preview. The iteration Ravi heard was v0.96. This final version is a huge, HUGE step up - especially in terms of the intangibles.
Q: I'm worried about the Yggdrasil being too analytical because you guys said it was so resolving down to the the original source tapes. I'm afraid of resolution.
A: Fuck you. Do you think of resolution or analytical when you listen to the REAL thing?
Q: How's the tone? I like a warm sound and I don't like nasty treble.
A: Fuck you. Does the word REAL mean anything to you? REAL means the complete gamut of every kind of sound.
Q: I have sucky recordings. Will the Yggdrasil make things sounds worse?
A: Absolutely not. The Yggy will scrape whatever is left of the soul of the recording and rendering it in the most REAL way possible. In fact, bad recordings sound great, because you get a new take on them.
Q: How does it compare to X or Y DAC?
A: Do X or Y DAC fake you out into thinking the recording is REAL?
Q: What do you mean by it's real?
A: I'm listening to Taylor Swift's second record right now from the Yggdrasil. Ho Lee Fuk. Ho Lee Fuk. I keep saying to myself. I cannot believe it. I am at a concert. This is real. She and her band are in my living room. Yeah, Ho Lee Fuk... Ho Lee Fuk. I am going to explode.
Q: I don't believe you.
A: I don't give a shit. Go waste your money on an MSB DAC if you prefer American or Total DAC if you prefer European.
Q: How does this compare to the Audio-GD Model X or Y?
A: Fuck you. Are you a retard?
Q: Does the Yggdrasil sound like a ladder DAC, or delta-sigma DAC, or a combination of the best qualities of both?
A: Fuck you. Does REAL life sound like a ladder DAC or delta-sigma. Give me a fucking break.
Q: I want a relaxo sound with imposed fluidity and warmth, like the Metrum or TDA15xx based NOS DACs.
A: Then go get a fucking Metrum or POS TDA15xx based DAC.
Q: Does the Yggy sound natural?
A: Fuck you. Do you ask yourself if REAL life sounds "natural"?
Q: Can I copy and paste this post into a HF thread?
A: Yeah, sure.
Q: I'm afraid of the bite of trumpets, the blare of horns, crunch of guitars, smack of snares, crash of cymbals...
A: Get another DAC. Might want to consider an expensive PCM1704 based one. Wadia or wait... Resolution Audio come to mind.
Q: How long does it need to be warmed up? I heard about the long warm up times.
A: Just leave it on. All the time. Sucking juice. I've done that with every DAC I have owned. True audiophiles need to make sacrifices. But to answer your question: 3 days minimum, 1 week for optimal performance.
Q: I find this warm-up phenomenon rather incredulous or either Schiit engineers must be incompetent.
A: Go buy an ODAC.
Q: I prefer NOS because the marketing spiel from the NOS DAC manufacturer says that NOS does not muck up the signal. Is the Yggy an NOS DAC?
A: Are you a fucking retard? Do you know what a brick-wall filter does to the original signal on 44.1kHz NOS?
Q: How good is the Yggdrasil's USB Gen 3 implementation?
A: Finally, a good question. I found the built-in USB Gen 3 to be cleaner and blacker sounding than the AES and SPDIF outputs from the Off Ramp 5. My OR5 does not have the turboclock or OTL upgrades.
Q: Does Wyrd improve the sound?A: Fuck off. Do you think people who drive Bugatti Veyrons or Lexus LFAs bother with aftermarket intakes for their cars?
-
:)p13 :)p13 :)p13 :)p13 :)p13 :)p13 :)p13 :)p13 :)p13 :)p13
Now I really want this DAC. Should I wait for six months after release or buy right after release? You know, in case shit goes wrong like Fulla.
-
This jerk has been feeding me little nuggets about his yggy experience. I've never heard/seen Marv so excited about a piece of gear in all of our friendship. I think he's a forever changed man.
-
Q: What do you mean by it's real?
A: I'm listening to Taylor Swift's second record right now from the Yggdrasil. Ho Lee Fuk. Ho Lee Fuk. I keep saying to myself. I cannot believe it. I am at concert. This is real. She and her band are in my living room. Yeah, Ho Lee Fuk... Ho Lee Fuk. I am going to explode.
Wait, your have it in your living room now!? *About to die of jealousy*
-
Limited term loaner and intensive beta test on Windoze. The Schiit guys are mac-heads...
-
The MSB DACs are mere toys.
There comes a point where words like warm, natural, --- The audiophile's pursuit, at least from my point of view and I know Anax is of the same opinion, is to recreate the musical performance to be as true as possible to the real thing - to fake us out into thinking it IS the REAL thing.
The Yggy does that. It is the most REAL source I have ever heard.
simply the best Fckin post EVAH on chang or HF. period. should be a sticky at the top of every DAC thread.
:)p1 headbang headbang
way to lay it down.
have to admit, raced into RMAF CanJam during the first minute just to plug my own HE-560 into the Ygg/Rag pairing and well- hell.
sounded like being in a real room of musicians!
after 15 minutes, only thing that snapped me out of it was seeing Jason's mug standing behind the tables, grinning like a madman.
:)p10
-
That was 0.96... you haven't heard nuttin' yet.
-
That was 0.96... you haven't heard nuttin' yet.
damn.
Touch Me I'm Sick.
-
That was 0.96... you haven't heard nuttin' yet.
The thought of a HD800 to Rag And Ygg combo is making me so excited, i can scarcely concentrate on preparing the power point slides for my boss. Gaaaahhhh
What is your favourite headphones for that?
-
Q: should I dump my GF and watch pr0n with Yggy instead? Is it really THAT real?
:money:
(I know the first part of the answer).
-
Seriously good post Marv, very clever.
-
ROFLcopter ! Marv that should be the mandatory read for every noob. Something like "that kind of experience should be your goal if you're REALLY into head gear for music". Anything else is just akin to lifting your ego with expensive stuff.
Funny enough, I think you just need to hear that kind of level to realize what can be attained. It's not something you can expect from the experience of lesser gear.
-
.
simply the best Fckin post EVAH on chang or HF. period. should be a sticky at the top of every DAC thread.
.
Best post on any hifi forum. Ever. It's almost enough to make me resign from hydrogenaudio! (Well, not quite: they provide a certain balance in my life 8) ).
Is it seriously OK to link to this thread/post elsewhere? It might result in the Changstar servers being overloaded with new members!
I don't mean everywhere, else there might be another Q/A...
Q. Can I copy this to every hifi forum in the world?
A. Fuck you. If you can't say Fuck you in your own name, don't use mine.
Nor do I mean to troll unsympathetic forums where the received wisdom is that if the DAC doesn't cost $20,000 is must be trash. Fuck me: I'm quite capable of doing my own trolling! :)p7
Just... there's a couple of friends I'd like to see this whole thread.
-
.......... The Schiit guys are mac-heads...
My respect and admiration for the Schiit guys just quintupled .......... :)p1
-
Lol! Schiit needs to come to the east coast one of these days so I can finally hear the Yggy. Great morning read Marv, thanks!
-
Oh god, how I wish I could use Marv's post for the Yggy FAQ!
-
I am so fuked reading the faq... Just take my money and be done with me!
:)p13
-
Marv, now you have done it. I might just have to fix that transport and say goodbye to my old 60 pound (hope CEE TEE didn't hurt his back putting in my van) CDP/DAC. You know the one, with the three filters???
-
Oh god, how I wish I could use Marv's post for the Yggy FAQ!
Do it! Do it! :)
-
Oh god, how I wish I could use Marv's post for the Yggy FAQ!
Maybe post a link in reviews area ;)
Just hope we little guys get a heads up when its ready before all the rich snobs get at it lol.
Edit:
Wait, what, does buying a yggy make me a rich snob too? :p
oh yeah, no just keep telling myself it makes best sense to skip all the Bull Schiit,
And go st8 for the REaL sounding schiit...
:p
-
If there's one thing we have to extremely appreciative of, it's the Schiit guys making good sounding gear accessible to us. Now I know that the Yggy ain't cheap, but if audio is that important to you, the Yggy is accessible. When I was in high school and university, I spent about 50% of what I made during the summer on audio gear with the rest going to living and schooling expenses. If I was a student today, doing the same routine, I'd be able to get an Yggdrasil.
Very shortly, you guys are going to know exactly what pieces go inside the Yggdrasil. Schiit does not pull off really ghey or lame stuff like scratching off the markings on chips. The milspec chips are very expensive. Big PCBs are also very expensive. Big iron, i.e. transformers, chokes, are very expensive.
Also keep in mind Moffat@Theta and Schiit have had a proven history of providing upgrades or trick-down tech to their lower line products. I'm crossing my fingers that Yggdrasil tech will run its way down the line. All that needs to happen is reducing the DSP, D-A, and analog boards to fit in a smaller chassis. For those who already know the A-D chips used (it's not so secret anymore), significantly cheaper 18-bit parts of the same family can be used. Might be hard to stuff it all into a Bifrost; but I see a lot of it possibly fitting into a Gungnir chassis (minus the shunt power circuits of the Yggy - just too much power dissipation.)
All I know that is these Schiit guys are crazy. I mean, who the fuck would make an amp where internal operating points are controlled by a microprocessor?
-
Now, I would be lifelong appreciative if they could trickle down the tech in a Gungnir chassis and add (remote and) digitally controlled analog pre-amp for my (soon to come) powered speakers!
I can work for them for free in order to make that dream come true :)p8. I program SHARC DSPs everyday...
-
I'd love a Yggy but I fear that by the time it comes to Australia it will be double the price. The Rag over here is $3k. Seriously. $3k. That's $2340 USD. Fuck.
-
Any need for (or effect of) Wyrd with the USB Gen 3?
-
Oh god, how I wish I could use Marv's post for the Yggy FAQ!
I was thinking the same thing :)p15
-
Any need for (or effect of) Wyrd with the USB Gen 3?
It goes kind of like this: If I had a Bugatti Veyron, I wouldn't bother with an aftermarket intake or other ricer accessories. But in the interests of furthering this hobby, I will give it a shot.
-
if I had a Bugatti Veyron, I wouldn't bother with any of you.
-
if I had a Bugatti Veyron, I would be driving instead of posting.
-
It goes kind of like this: If I had a Bugatti Veyron, I wouldn't bother with an aftermarket intake or other ricer accessories. But in the interests of furthering this hobby, I will give it a shot.
Many of us already have a Wyrd so might as well put it to work ;) plus, this gives us something to talk about in the meantime while schiit gets production underway..
-
After 6-9 days, there comes a moment when the Yggy just sort of disappears; difficult to articulate but startling upon first experience.
-
Dr. M, please take my money before I start rationalizing about spending and priorities... :)
-
Would putting it in the microwave for a few minutes negate the 6 days of power on time?
-
It's like you guys have found the grail. :-DD
-
Ok all, some thoughts on the issues of Windoze vs Mac and a major overlooked solution for some very common problems. At Schiit, we have a significant sample size of users of both OSes.
The statistics: Windows users are about 60% of our users and they represent over 95% of our customer service bandwidth. Customer service costs money; this is reflected in the prices we charge. Therefore Schiit Mac users are subsidizing Schiit Windoze users by a significant margin. Below are some reasons different people may choose either OS:
Why Mac:
You have just completed your male to female sex change, and you want a socially acceptable computer within your new LGBT community.
You view a computer as an accessory rather than a tool.
You are a trust fund child of limited intellect but with unlimited computer budget.
You think that since they are so often used in movies, they must be the right brand.
You work professionally in the audio industry and need absolute reliability.
Why PC:
You have a small business and therefore properly have a PC to run Microsoft Office. You are way too cheap to get a good audio machine.
You like to dress up only in your underwear, funny hats, and capes in order to game.
You are an engineer used to working with buggy development software with childlike UIs. You do not mind the challenge of risking malware by downloading and installing drivers of questionable compatibility with your system.
You are unsophisticated and do not realize that no one in the audio business utilizes Windoze for any purpose except to develop drivers for other unsophisticated Windoze users.
You like working with fiddly, troublesome files and formats, i.e. DSD.
You actually like dealing with customer service.
You like to live on the edge with a dangerous, insecure OS and enjoy slow and unreliable servers.
You like to impress your friends and flex your geek muscles by making unreliable drivers work with operating systems designed with audio as an afterthought.
You are so worried what people may think of you that you could never entertain the notion of getting a Mac.
Take heart, there is a solution! You can become a Linux user. Get a copy of the latest Stable Ubuntu on a thumb drive, or DVD if you are a traditionalist. Boot up the Drive, read a tutorial or two, and try it out without installation. Voila! No drivers, reliable operation, no need for a rubber when you get on the net. All the software is free! By and large, it just works. Fart around with it and if you like it, install so it dual boots on your PC. There are at least 10 popular music players which have widely varied feature sets.
A caveat: Schiit customer service is not a Linux tutorial service. If you are a mensch, give it a go. It is far better mojo than draining customer service with the same old stupid Windoze issues. In addition, many users report better sound as well.
Stop fiddling with random unreproducible problems. Enjoy your music! Have fun! This is a hobby after all.
-
Great stuff! That should be one of the guides/FAQ's at Schiit. Not that anyone that would contact support regarding PC issues would bother perusing the site beforehand.
-
Take heart, there is a solution! You can become a Linux user.
...
In addition, many users report better sound as well.
:money:
For some reason especially crappy usb implementations benefit from Linux.
But in order to get a working and usable OS one needs to open terminal once in a while.
This is the 'mensch' part right?
-
... ... ...
Take heart, there is a solution! You can become a Linux user. Get a copy of the latest Stable Ubuntu on a thumb drive, or DVD if you are a traditionalist. Boot up the Drive, read a tutorial or two, and try it out without installation. Voila! No drivers, reliable operation, no need for a rubber when you get on the net. All the software is free! By and large, it just works. Fart around with it and if you like it, install so it dual boots on your PC. There are at least 10 popular music players which have widely varied feature sets.
A caveat: Schiit customer service is not a Linux tutorial service. If you are a mensch, give it a go. It is far better mojo than draining customer service with the same old stupid Windoze issues. In addition, many users report better sound as well.
Stop fiddling with random unreproducible problems. Enjoy your music! Have fun! This is a hobby after all.
Yay! Yeah!!! :)p1 :)p7 :)p1
Linux here... In the process of converting Mrs G with a new Dell laptop which we didn't pay the Windows extra on --- but I promised I'd install if she does hate what she sees.
I can understand that that, for both reviews and supporters, Linux can be a nightmare, largley because there is no such thing. I know for a fact that my Ubunu/KXStudio 12.04 is not going to be exactly like any other, and even an "off-the-shelf" Ubuntu 12.04 is going to have different versions of this, that and/or the other. It still galls me, though, that reviewers can't even be bothered to try and report on even one Linux machine: it worked/failed, YMMV.
By the way: in setting up Mrs G's new machine, I have completely overcome my hate-it-on-site aversion to Unity. It is actually neat, even if it does look like a Fisher Price toy. I'll still use MATE, though.
I suppose most MAC users are going to be MAC users in the long term: they bought into the hardware as well as the environment. Otherwise, the adventure of Linux
is well worth a try. Occasionally have to use a terminal window? Sincw when did that become 100% unnecessary with Windows! walk the plank2
-
Why PC:
You want to use very obscure audio and acoustic related programs which have only been compiled to run on a Winx OS, such as a Klippel acoustic analyzer.
-
You want to use very obscure audio and acoustic related programs which have only been compiled to run on a Winx OS, such as a Klippel acoustic analyzer.
Good thing you can dual or triple boot. ;)
-
Mike must be typing on his Blackberry. Which was the one with the childlike UI and limited software applications again? :P
Suppose it's all relative. Unless you run Linux. ;)
-
I really need to cut the crap and just not contribute to my 401k for like a month so I can buy this.
-
I'm bringing the Theta Data III to the big meet. Screw computers.
-
So what does it make me if we have Linux, OSX, Windows and ChromeOS computers +Android devices in my house? Oh wait, I know, a huge tool.
And Marv, are you bringing a laptop at all?
-
maybe - as backup. I really don't want to cater to Japanese anime music mp3 files.
-
Reading the threads and posts about the Yggdrasil "sets off alot of bells",
that this very well may be not only a game changer but also a turning point in view of dacs..
Hopefully the masses will awaken to not accept current level of performance imbued with compromises...
Hopefully we could have a future where no longer will people focus on a "flavor" of sound,
but as mentioned earlier, the "reality" of sound.
So those "bells" telling me this unit will initially sell like hotcakes then taper down once a "trickle down" unit appears in future....
I now have a much deeper appreciation for you schiit guys :)
-
OK.... WTF you guys are not going to believe this.
There's a button on the Yggy for absolute polarity. I thought this was some sort of sick joke - on most systems / DACs I don't hear a difference. So I'm playing Tracy Chapman and I pressed the button. WTF... Yeah, it makes a difference. Fuck me.
The way Mike put it was "either the image sucks or blows".
This is how I put it: diffuse almost an out-of-phase effect - where impacts and attacks are inward within the speakers - pressed the button - was like WTF... immediately noticed it.. everything tightens up and impacts and attacks are toward me.
-
Where I notice the biggest difference in absolute polarity is in the extreme bass.
It is either obviously present and in your face, or diffuse, weak and lacks extension into the very bottom end.
It's always a pleasant surprise to re-discover the difference.
JJ
-
I'll not fuck you, but...
looks like this test?
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php
render the guitar recording as if the guitar was playing in front of you - not "inside" your head - with a full body character.
-
We are not talking about stereo in-phase / out-of-phase. We are talking about absolute polarity which is different. (flipping the waveform on both channels)
-
.
We are talking about absolute polarity
.
As in Suck You?
-
Any major differences in balanced vs SE outs like the Rag does? Looking to possibly pair this with the DNA Stratus which does not have balanced inputs.
-
Any major differences in balanced vs SE outs like the Rag does? Looking to possibly pair this with the DNA Stratus which does not have balanced inputs.
Don't know for sure but would doubt it. Rag is a completely different circuit. If there is a notable difference it would unlikely be as stark as that
-
SE outs were exceptional when I tried with an EC amp. You can say the EC fed SE by Yggdrasil brought more to the plate in aspects of resolution and microdynamic than Rag fed balanced from Yggy.
I'm not sure, but I'm figuring Yggy sums the outputs for SE out. The reason this makes such a huge difference for the Rag is that summing the outputs takes away from the circlotron topology which is inherently balanced. Yggy's analog output is much more straightforward to being with.
-
That's a roger.......................
SE outputs are summed from Bal on Yggy
-
That's a roger.......................
SE outputs are summed from Bal on Yggy
Can you comment on any hits to performance as a result of the summing?
-
1.3%
-
1.3%
:)p1 I meant from a design standpoint, like how the Rag was expected to take a hit given the circlotron topology (as you mentioned earlier). Any issues of that nature in the analog section of the Yggy? Figured I might as well ask given we have the ear of the man himself here (MM).
-
UPDATE: It's almost a week now - close to obligatory warm up time as suggested by Mike. I actually did not listen to the Yggy at all from Saturday to Monday (busy doing family things). Last night, stayed up until 2am just listening to random stuff.
Yggdrasil is the perfect DAC. The technicalities of (i.e. soundstage, resolution, dynamics, etc. that I mentioned earlier) are still there. The realism is still there. But these things become integrated into a greater whole. The focus is now on the the musicians' artist intent through the sound engineers' craftsmanship - the combined artistry of the musicians and sound engineers (there is an art to sound engineering). Not flavors of DAC. You just don't think about it.
P.S.
Shitty recordings sound great on Yggdrasil. Everything sounds great on the Yggrdrasil. Yggdrasil makes us fully realize imperfections in the sound engineering process, yet at the same time, makes these imperfections irrelevant because it so purely transmits the essence and of soul music. "Clear and soulful" as my non-audiophile wife described. We just sit back and enjoy. Yggdrasil is not the God DAC. It is the Buddha DAC.
-
You know, it's funny...I don't usually comment on our products, but I have to say that since I've "gone multibit," I'm constantly amazed at how even really astoundingly bad recordings (think early-mid 80's CD sources, from when they were still figuring out that digital thang) are well-textured and have a lot of musical information in them.
It seems like there's really no TMI in audio, maybe just TMA (too much ass.)
-
maaaaan. ever have that feeling- you want to sell every DAC you own to start the $ to approach the Yggy?
p:3
only to have that lead to buying a balanced (and superb) Amp?
which would lead to building a bigger room for these largest schitt stacks.
which would lead to an unbalanced bank account.
and eventually sleeping on the streets.
:)p10
-
only to have that lead to buying a balanced (and superb) Amp?
which would lead to building a bigger room for these largest schitt stacks.
which would lead to an unbalanced bank account.
and eventually sleeping on the streets.
:)p10
This. Plus divorce and joint custody of the cat. walk the plank
-
It seems like there's really no TMI in audio, maybe just TMA (too much ass.)
That's why I've been a HD800/resolution whore this whole time. Why pay money for audio gear that takes away from or hides your recordings? Truth and honesty is a beautiful thing even if it's not what you thought you wanted to hear.
-
Marv, you are making it sound like this Yggy version is easier to listen to than the prior, which you said I might consider aggressive. So maybe it might work as a good DAC to have along with a NOS DAC (which I just gotta have for fatigue reasons, for whatever reason)?
-
Old or new, bet they both sound aggressive when cold out of the box or with insufficient powered on time.
-
Shitty recordings sound great on Yggdrasil. Everything sounds great on the Yggdrasil.
The mark of good gear IMO, and I'll mud wrestle anyone who suggests otherwise. May need to get one of these to keep my Phasure NOS1a company. I'm doubtful it can dethrone the Phasure, but not all my sources are USB so it's good to have a 2nd DAC.
-
Competitor number one in da place :
(http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1425419646.jpg)
i'm ready to welcome the Yggy (competitor number two) as soon as I have the money and the opportunity to grab one and compare it to the TotalDAC A1.
-
Assuming the power consumption of Yggy is ... 50W.
I need to budget for around of $100 equivalent dollars to keep it on for a year!
Well, it's just a fact of life, i guess.
:)p13
-
May need to get one of these to keep my Phasure NOS1a company.
Now that's an A/B I'd love to do. Might be surprising close.
-
To be fair, I never gave v0.96 a shakedown past 24 hours, but I've had the v0.99 for almost a week now. However, I will say that small spurts and indications of what the Yggdrasil could do were heard early on.
v0.99 with the Gen 3 USB, is cleaner and blacker than v0.96. The removal of the last vestiges of haze initially required me to reduce the volume of the woofers (330Hz down), by 1db around the 48 hour point. At this point, I've moved things back up so the woofers are down 0.4db. I may go back to stock. v0.99 is more chameleon-like. v0.99 sounds leaner with lean recordings, and warmer with warm recordings. This threw me for a loop in terms of my speaker tuning. v0.99 also hits, punches, and slams slightly harder. I was listening to The Police - Invisible Sun at 1am last night at low volume, and I had to turn it down a notch because I didn't want to wake the rest of my family. The dynamism is turned up a notch.
As far as the warm / treble-rolled thing, this is the way I see it: Warm or treble-rolled flavoring is only required when the meat is tofu (NOS, PCM1704, TDA15xx, etc.) or if the meat is rancid (Sabre). Other examples: (1) the shit coffee I get for free at work, I pour a bunch of non-dairy creamer and sugar into it to make it palatable. The Ethiopian Yirgacheffe that I roast myself, I only drink black, and I don't make it strong either. (2) shit whiskey must be blended with 7-up for ginger-ale to make it palatable; Booker's bourbon I'll drink straight (without adding ice, drops of water, or cooling rock bullshit).
While I wouldn't describe v0.96 as analytical, those who heard v0.96 did acknowledge that it was a tour-de-force in terms of resolution. "Resolving-as-fuck" was really the key phrase heard. With the v0.99, this now changes. While the Yggdrasil is still resolving as fuck, we now hear words such as "real", "disappears", "clear and soulful."
The reason I called the Yggdrasil the Buddha* DAC is that it transcends the dichotomies of detailed/natural or analytical/organic (to frame it in the most simple terms). I even hesitate to use the phrase "emotionally involving", because the mere use of that phrase implies an initial excitement which may turn stale. The Yggdrasil presents the recording simply as it is, without stain, pollution, constraint.
*Lao Tzu or Tao DAC are also appropriate, but "Tao DAC" sounds too ghey, too upmarket, too TASish.
Now if you are afraid of reality - I'm sure you have attended live concerts - afraid of the bite of trumpets, the blare of horns, crunch of guitars, smack of snares, crash of cymbalsm, by all means, get another DAC, preferably of the tofu variety.
-
It's weird, but a lot of concerts, even heavy metal ones, I'm fine with. They can be a bit loud or have poor acoustics, but the sort of fatigue I get from listening at home (speakers don't bother me near as much as headphones) is entirely different. Am I broken? So far NOS DACs have been the best thing to alleviate that sort of fatigue, though I loved stuff like the Classe DAC-1 in short sessions. I can't make sense of it. But I am hoping Yggy trickle down tech doesn't take too long, as I'd like to have something from both DAC realms.
-
Metal concerts are not like live performances of natural instruments. That said, modern pop, rock and metal concerts are bass bloated affairs on usually very warm speakers with rolled off highs and lots of sub wub wub. Fidelity is not a priority at metal concerts usually, loud naked aggression is more par for the course. Think of the drum sets you've heard at metal concerts, how often do recall even noticing the sound of anything metallic. Lots of toms and lots and lots of kick drum. Those concerts are usually tuned like shit by deaf audio 'engineers' and the guitars are running through lots of bad tube distortion and coloration to get that sound.
So you won't get SS, SABRE or treble fatigue, just long term hearing loss from lots of biological acoustic reflex to massive mid and low bass pounding your brain at 135dB+ for a few hours.
I hope that's not a reference sound for most people. Just go find a real instrument and pluck it, bang it, or blow it and remember that sound. :o :D
-
I'm mainly talking about small venues in terms of live concerts. Most recordings try to mimic these kinds of environments. Either with natural instruments or ones where people like me (non deaf, knew WTF they were doing) were behind the mixing console. If you want to test, have a friend who plays drums, violin, or trumpet come to your place so you can listen. If that's too much, Yggy is not for you.
-
I've been to all sorts of venues throughout my life (choral, big band, small band, jazz, acoustic, piano recitals, rock, symphonies, past GF that always used to practice trumpet at my place, brother used to play drums, etc.). I'm sure at least some of these venues were poor acoustically and some were not. I was just using metal concerts as an example of something that even then doesn't bother me because that was the most, uh, extreme thing I could think of. And can't recall a lack of metallics from drums with those bands, but that's besides the point. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression there. :) Fatigue I get from headphone listening, and to a much lesser extent speakers, is an entirely different problem for me and quickly builds too. At first I thought it was discomfort from wearing headphones, but I was able to rule that out once NOS DACs fixed it right up, for whatever reason (and to an extent low-oversampling DACs). Anything real has never done that to me. I'm probably a crazy person.
-
It's probably headphones blasting straight into your ear at volumes much higher than you realize. Might be good idea for you to avoid Yggy unless you can find the right headphones.
-
Well I don't know about you but I've been to a few small venue concerts where I approached the sound engineer with his HD650's in front of the mix console and told him to fix his shit. Invariably if there's a mic, speaker and a sound engineer between me and the performer, I usually have all sorts of issues. I guess I'm just not as lucky. I've almost sworn off going to concerts altogether a few times due to Forrest Gump syndrome.
I was just at a Piano recital a month ago and out of a room of a couple hundred only myself and another Chinese lady noticed a string in the piano had let go on one of the keys. Everyone else were just happy as clams. I won't even get into the associated orchestral band and its crappy overbearing drummer.
-
It's probably headphones blasting straight into your ear at volumes much higher than you realize. Might be good idea for you to avoid Yggy unless you can find the right headphones.
PM-1 sleepy time! Based on relatively unscientific tests, I believe I usually listen around 80-85dB. Which I suppose is pretty loud, and my SPL tests probably underestimate it. :) I should do more experiments with lower volumes to see how much of a difference that makes. But clearly it must have at least a little bit to do with having a driver so close to my ear if speakers don't bother me the same way at similar volumes from DACs that do fatigue me.
-
Gen. 3 USB in Yggy?
Any chance that it reclocks like the Wyrd?
Damn us poor plebs down here in the slums want that Gen 3 USB tech trickle down to hit the BiFrost one day soon. And throw in Uber 3 analog as well!
popcorn
-
Gen. 3 USB in Yggy?
Any chance that it reclocks like the Wyrd?
Damn us poor plebs down here in the slums want that Gen 3 USB tech trickle down to hit the BiFrost one day soon. And throw in Uber 3 analog as well!
popcorn
You're totally getting an Yggy. Don't fight it.
-
Gen. 3 USB in Yggy?
Any chance that it reclocks like the Wyrd?
Damn us poor plebs down here in the slums want that Gen 3 USB tech trickle down to hit the BiFrost one day soon. And throw in Uber 3 analog as well!
popcorn
USB is the Yggy should be superior to anything in the current Wyrds. Stop sweating it people.
-
You're totally getting an Yggy. Don't fight it.
Damn you guys are the best. p:3
"Give in to the largest DAC in the world?! Or
Do not go boldy into the DAC night..."
walk the plank2
-
You're totally getting an Yggy. Don't fight it.
I thought we are all getting the Yggy. Come on jex, get with the program. :)p3
-
snip
P.S.
Shitty recordings sound great on Yggdrasil. Everything sounds great on the Yggrdrasil. Yggdrasil makes us fully realize imperfections in the sound engineering process, yet at the same time, makes these imperfections irrelevant because it so purely transmits the essence and of soul music. "Clear and soulful" as my non-audiophile wife described. We just sit back and enjoy. Yggdrasil is not the God DAC. It is the Buddha DAC.
This has been a 'goal' of mine, to be able to truly enjoy terrible recordings. Once the 'electronics' and the rest of the system 'get out of their own way' every track is enticing, every instrument is intriguing, and it doesn't matter what the venue is, all of it sucks me further into the music.
This is a really good thing…!
JJ
-
Ravi will soon be presenting Mike Moffatt with the 2015 Changstar International Peace Prize award - for helping to bring peoples from all around the world together in peace. And to think that we were first considering about giving the award to Barr...
-
I will buy the Yggy in a heartbeat as soon as it comes out if it can cook xiaolongbao for me everyday.
-
I thought we are all getting the Yggy. Come on jex, get with the program. :)p3
indeed, fall in line all swabbies! :)p5
maybe this thread should be moderated so that ONLY Yggy owners
(or members with Yggy tattoos) can post within. *:p
if this thread gets any more informative and ROTFL entertaining I'm voting Marvey/Ravi in 2016.
(R2R party)
or at least paying some proxy attending CanJam SoCal to bathe them in gold dust....
-
Where do I register for party membership? Seriously though, expectations are high and I for one have been deferring "like to have" equipment. The magic number is 2299. I do want to hear fingers flying on the guitar strings etc etc.
-
Now that's an A/B I'd love to do. Might be surprising close.
Phasure vs Schiit. Y'all heard it here first.
Bring a Trinity DAC and TotalDAC too, and make internet history.
Anyways, I'm just south of Bay Area. I'm sure there will be Yggy's around soon, if not already.
Now I take leave to start my next thread, "How is Yggy's pronounced?"
-
indeed, fall in line all swabbies! :)p5
maybe this thread should be moderated so that ONLY Yggy owners
(or members with Yggy tattoos) can post within. *:p
if this thread gets any more informative and ROTFL entertaining I'm voting Marvey/Ravi in 2016.
(R2R party)
or at least paying some proxy attending CanJam SoCal to bathe them in gold dust....
I thought it was the Details Whore Anonymous, did I take a wrong turn somewhere ?
-
This has been a 'goal' of mine, to be able to truly enjoy terrible recordings. Once the 'electronics' and the rest of the system 'get out of their own way' every track is enticing, every instrument is intriguing, and it doesn't matter what the venue is, all of it sucks me further into the music.
This is a really good thing…!
JJ
Working in mixing and pro audio generally, one of the biggest concerns is whether or not your mixes will "translate" to other playback chains. Will the essential parts still be there? When you're listening through great gear in a treated room you are hearing the recording as it really is but in a less ideal environment the timbre gets mangled a bit, maybe some harmonics or overtones don't quite make it and that changes the balance. Or the tape hiss doesn't sound distracting because your room can resolve it, etc. Sounds like the Yggy lets you hear that "real deal" version. Like the 4K wet-gate scan of an old film. If there's grain, you can see it and resolve the entire structure. If there are scratches, spool holes etc you'll see them too, but really who among us doesn't want to see the best version? Or hear it.
I have pretty much accepted I'm getting a Yggy eventually.
-
.
Competitor number one in da place :
.
Yggdrasil versus the Anglepoise lamp! Hmmm... Interesting...
.
it transcends the dichotomies of detailed/natural or analytical/organic (to frame it in the most simple terms).
.
The simplicity is appreciated :)
-
...
P.S.
Shitty recordings sound great on Yggdrasil. Everything sounds great on the Yggrdrasil. ...
If it's made by schiit, shouldn't any shit sound good on it?
:p. :)
.... Truth and honesty is a beautiful thing even if it's not what you thought you wanted to hear.
That's a great observation I too realized ,
that's why I want your hd800 mod, and a yggy!
:)
-
I am wondering for those getting a yggy that also have a wyrd,
I would suppose it may be overkill,
but it wouldn't hurt to use a wyrd for protecting yggy,
sort of like a condom right?
Don't need dirty laptop power crapping into your multi thousand unit :p
-
I am wondering for those getting a yggy that also have a wyrd,
I would suppose it may be overkill,
but it wouldn't hurt to use a wyrd for protecting yggy,
sort of like a condom right?
Don't need dirty laptop power crapping into your multi thousand unit :p
Yggy USB already has some Wyrd tech in it. C'mon guys. Once you get an Aventador or Veyron, you don't bother wondering what aftermarket "cold" air intakes are going to do.
-
Yggy USB already has some Wyrd tech in it. C'mon guys. Once you get an Aventador or Veyron, you don't bother wondering what aftermarket "cold" air intakes are going to do.
So, what USB cable should we use? :P
-
Belkin Gold
-
Zomg, just came to post that.
-
Just get one from a Going Out of Business Radio Shack for $24.99 (after 90% off).
-
Could this why RatShack is going out of business?
Support Changstar now! Click on the above link to buy. I could use some extra money for Clash of Clans too.
-
Pretty sure it has to do with the newer generations not knowing how to perform a tire or oil change, and buying electronics with non replaceable batteries they ditch every year or two. We're about 10 years away from watering the San Joaquin Valley with Gatorade.
-
We're about 10 years away from watering the San Joaquin Valley with Gatorade.
...but it's got electrolytes, it's what plants crave. (I can't believe this is my first post)
-
Pretty sure it has to do with the newer generations not knowing how to perform a tire or oil change, and buying electronics with non replaceable batteries they ditch every year or two.
Basic troubleshooting skills, critical thinking and ability to learn how to learn seem to be on the decline. Very disturbing. Part of my corporate gig includes guiding highly educated people through the very basics, usually in the fields of audio and acoustics.
-
Basic troubleshooting skills, critical thinking and ability to learn how to learn seem to be on the decline. Very disturbing. Part of my corporate gig includes guiding highly educated people through the very basics, usually in the fields of audio and acoustics.
Tell that to the 3 year old who can operate your tablet better than you do...
Just a different approach to the world, with different skills set. Not mentally limited (for the most part).
-
Day 9/10:
Ahh, it's Friday. Put on Natalie Merchant Carnival. An OK recording. Ah shit. I cannot believe how good the Yggdrasil is. Tugs at the heartstrings like vinyl, without the vinyl's weaknesses. Brings me back to my childhood, before CDs ruined it all. Wow... just wow. Just brings me to tears.
I write this only to torture Ravi.
-
Day 9/10:
Ahh, it's Friday. Put on Natalie Merchant Carnival.
I write this only to torture Ravi.
Except that Ravi might well have Natalie Merchant in his living room.
:-00
-
Except that Ravi might well have Natalie Merchant in his living room.
:-00
I tried to invite her over but my wife vetoed that.
I've been getting a behind the scenes play by play from Marv for the past few days. Jealously faded quickly and now I'm genuinely happy he's enjoying it so much. It's like seeing your buddy with the gal or guy of his dreams (who is also super duper hot) and he's totally happy while you've got a rocky love life: at first you envy that happiness a teeny little bit but you quickly are happy that a bro is happy.
-
Get a room. :vomit:
Keep it up and CeeTee is going to break up with you.
-
Get a room. :vomit:
Keep it up and CeeTee is going to break up with you.
Awww, how cute. Anax is afraid of fuzzy feelings.
-
CT babysits my kids online in CoC.
-
For non Marv completists who do not keep up with all of his threads:
The DAC in the Yggy is an AD5791BRUZ - Headline specs: 1 ppm 20-Bit, ±1 LSB INL. I use 2 per channel (1 per phase) to get an honest 20 bit level of performance. That is four per Yggy. The BRUZ version is the higher specced model.
Only 20 bits you say? You can get a 24 delta sigma bit (advertised) DAC chips for 3% of the cost of one 5791. Check it out. Go to Mouser or Digi-Key and see how much AD5791s cost. Yup, you get just about $400 worth of DAC chips in every Yggy. I have seen $10,000 dollar D/A converters with $22 bucks worth of dac chips inside. The Yggy is by far away the best fucking parts cost deal going in the arena of high end DACs, period.
Biggest problem was figuring out how to get it running without glitching - sample and hold amps sound like ass.
Also you have to drive it with DSP because every sample requires a fixed preamble.
For the above reasons, I don't expect a lot of competitors to be using it. After all, even analog devices told me it was not designed for audio. The best way to get me to do something is to tell me I can't or shouldn't do it.
Couldn't resist grandstanding -- sorry!
-
Chips? Bah! I want to know about the "secret burrito" FIR filter that is of a class that preserves samples (so f(0)=1 and f(t)=0 for integer |t|>0), but it isn't a sinc-filter or a typical minimum-phase one. Enter the magic unicorn burrito phase sauce selected by the Gods! My guess (given the 'divide-by-zero' anecdote) is a minimum-phase filter in the analog/Hilbert-Bode sense* (not the usual discrete-time sense). But I have no idea.
Jedi master tricks aside, the curious pirates have not forgotten about the filter. :wheel:
But enough of that, back to the business at hand. :money:
*Section III, equations (9) (http://arxiv.org/abs/1107.0071)
-
For non Marv completists who do not keep up with all of his threads:
The DAC in the Yggy is an AD5791BRUZ - Headline specs: 1 ppm 20-Bit, ±1 LSB INL. I use 2 per channel (1 per phase) to get an honest 20 bit level of performance. That is four per Yggy. The BRUZ version is the higher specced model.
Only 20 bits you say? You can get a 24 delta sigma bit (advertised) DAC chips for 3% of the cost of one 5791. Check it out. Go to Mouser or Digi-Key and see how much AD5791s cost. Yup, you get just about $400 worth of DAC chips in every Yggy. I have seen $10,000 dollar D/A converters with $22 bucks worth of dac chips inside. The Yggy is by far away the best fucking parts cost deal going in the arena of high end DACs, period.
Biggest problem was figuring out how to get it running without glitching - sample and hold amps sound like ass.
Also you have to drive it with DSP because every sample requires a fixed preamble.
For the above reasons, I don't expect a lot of competitors to be using it. After all, even analog devices told me it was not designed for audio. The best way to get me to do something is to tell me I can't or shouldn't do it.
Couldn't resist grandstanding -- sorry!
Hee, picked up another $10 for my Yggy fund.
-
Chips? Bah! I want to know about the "secret burrito" FIR filter that is of a class that preserves samples (so f(0)=1 and f(t)=0 for integer |t|>0), but it isn't a sinc-filter or a typical minimum-phase one. Enter the magic unicorn burrito phase sauce selected by the Gods! My guess (given the 'divide-by-zero' anecdote) is a minimum-phase filter in the analog/Hilbert-Bode sense* (not the usual discrete-time sense). But I have no idea.
I do too. But Jason's left hints: 1) Closed-form. 2) Maintains original samples. That basically tells you a lot! If you know your math and algorithms.
-
For the above reasons, I don't expect a lot of competitors to be using it. After all, even analog devices told me it was not designed for audio. The best way to get me to do something is to tell me I can't or shouldn't do it.
No one at ADI should be trusted.
-
Oh, can I get a discount on an Yggdrasil if I ship you a few AD5791BRUZs? ;)
-
They can get them cheaper than you.
-
Cheaper than stealing them from the warehouse in Wilmington?
-
(Of course this is only funny if no one actually steals some and pins it on me. Then it's hilarious.)
-
OK.... WTF you guys are not going to believe this.
There's a button on the Yggy for absolute polarity. I thought this was some sort of sick joke - on most systems / DACs I don't hear a difference. So I'm playing Tracy Chapman and I pressed the button. WTF... Yeah, it makes a difference.
The way Mike put it was "either the image sucks or blows".
This is how I put it: diffuse almost an out-of-phase effect - where impacts and attacks are inward within the speakers - pressed the button - was like WTF... immediately noticed it.. everything tightens up and impacts and attacks are toward me.
I have been thinking about this because my DAC has a phase switch and I have never been able to hear any noticeable effect from changing it. I have tried again while listening critically, but still nothing. The DAC is an Adcom GDA-700 which has 2x PCM1702 chips fed by a PM100 (HDCD) filter. From all the talk about relative merits of different filters I am wondering if the filtering of the PM100 performs enough "smoothing" and "phase effects" and such so as to remove any obvious difference between normal and inverted phase. Or I have cloth ears. What's the pirates' views on the PM100 filter?
-
Oversimplified, however essentially correct: That the DSP filter in the Yggy is closed form, and preserves all of the original samples is commonly known. The filter is also time domain optimized which means the phase info in the original samples are averaged in the time domain with the filter generated interpolated samples to for minimum phase shift as a function of frequency from DC to the percentage of nyquist - in our case .968. Time domain is well defined at DC - the playback device behaves as a window fan at DC - it either blows (in phase) or sucks (out). It is our time domain optimization that gives the uncanny sonic hologram that only Thetas and Yggys do. (It also allows the filter to disappear. Has to be heard to understand.) This is combined with a frequency domain optimization which does not otherwise affect the phase optimization. The .968 of nyquist also gives us a small advantage that none of the off-the shelf FIR filters provide: frequency response out to 21.344KHz, 42.688KHz, 85.3776KHz, and 170.5772KHz bandwidth for native 1,2,4, and 8x 44.1KHz SR multiple recordings - the 48KHz table is 23.232, 46.464, 92.868, and 185.856KHz respectively for 1,2,4, and 8x.
The Pacific Microsonics PM100 filter (HDCD) was a variation of all of the off-the shelf cookbook filters of the late 80's with the standard Frequency Domain successive approximation coefficient calculation found in the Burr-Brown, Phillips, Analog Devices, and are still used on the front ends of most delta-sigma DACs today. I cannot comment beyond that because I was not interested in a format that had already been condemned to stillbirth because of its required encode - exactly what's wrong with DSD. You have to get all of the studios on board. As I have said before, this leads to recordings like: The Folsom Prison Orchestra playing Regional Polkas of the Balkan States, or better yet, the folkloric Orkney Island Shepherds Cries of Ecstasy upon Summer Moonlight. The latter was so well recorded, I've heard, that the listener could hear the shepherds gently guiding the young kids' rear legs into their high topped boots as the objects of the rapturous ecstasy gently bleat. Those recordings are not for me - my musical tastes are quite ordinary - my products support the 99.999 per cent of recordings. Again, I digress. Since lower frequency wavelengths are measured in tens of feet, placement in image gets increasingly wrong as a function of decreasing frequency in non time domain optimized recordings - these keep the listener's ability to hear the venue - not to mention the sum of all of the phase errors in the microphones, mixing boards, eq, etc on the record side. An absolute phase switch is of little to no value in a stochastic time domain replay system.
-
Thank you Mike Moffat for explaining the filter. It is something what i have been wondering and speculating..
English is not my native language but i try...
(to MoatsArt)
Think the subwoofer. You really cant locate it because of those low frequency waves wich are loooong. But if you have active crossover you can raise the crossover point higher and suddenly you start to locate the sub. High frequencys are easy to locate, they are very short. So, its easy and correct allways in real life(obviously). But its not easy in Dac:s. After all these dacs and players i realize that the only one that sounded the right way and most natural is my previous dac Theta Gen V-a. And the bass is GREAT. Not wooly, because it is precise.
I have had good dacs/cd-players with PMD100,DSP:s, PCM1704U-K, WM8740, WM8741, Cirrus, AKM, etc., but when i first heard my Theta Gen V i was pretty shocked. The most impressive thing was the 3D imaging. For the first time i truly did hear the imaging and placement of the people/instruments in the recording.
That did keep me thinking about dacs and cd-players and what are the real differences. Example, i have heard the Copland cd266 with PMD100+BB PCM63+Class A output, and it is far away from Theta Gen V. But it is still considered very good cd-player.
So i have no doubt for the Schiit Yggdrasil, newer technology/parts+filter wich is "THE RIGHT ONE" + good warranty + the right price, many people will buy it. First they may have to hear it to believe it.
But lets talk about price...
I had original UK brochure with my Theta Gen V-a. The UK price was 6500GBP, about 9000Euros. If i am correct the US price was something about 3500USD?
So.. Of course it is your product and you say the price but, it is the feeling that someone in the other side of the planet can get the same device a LOT cheaper is sometimes the only reason to not buy that device. I think if you can keep the price about the same in everywhere, then it would be great and fair.
All the best to Schiit, and i too hope that you can make the trick and make the new version of "Theta Pro Gen Y" :) (= 1/2 Yggdrasil and cheaper)
Regards,
Niko
Finland
-
Niko - If I may correct you, the US retail price of the Theta Gen V-a was $5,595. Looking forward to getting a Yggdrasil!
-
Ok, thanks for correcting.
Br,
Niko
-
(to MoatsArt)
Think the subwoofer. You really cant locate it because of those low frequency waves wich are loooong. But if you have active crossover you can raise the crossover point higher and suddenly you start to locate the sub. High frequencys are easy to locate, they are very short. So, its easy and correct allways in real life(obviously)
An expansion on this: one of the ways you determine sound location is the phase/time difference between the sounds reaching each ear. A sound emanating directly in front of you will reach both ears at the same time. One coming from the side will hit one ear first. When the half-wavelength of the sound in question is roughly in the same order of magnitude as the distance between your ears, you can pick out the phase difference and determine how far off centre the sound comes from (it's a bit like thinking your ears are grabbing two spots on a sine wave, and your brain magically does a calculation to determine what angle it must have come from in order to have that phase offset).
Low frequencies have long wavelengths and your brain can't really evaluate the phase difference because the difference is too small. High frequencies cannot be evaluated by phase because can you cram several wavelengths into that spot between your ears, but your brain doesn't know that. Mathematically, it gives you multiple solutions.
Of course, phase differences aren't the only way your brain determines location. There's level differences, the whole transform thing from your ear and/or as sound bounces or travels through your body, etc. The mechanisms all work together, blah blah voodoo.
-
Thank you for that expansion Armaegis.
These are the moments that i wish my collection of english words would be bigger.
My hobby is speaker building and these same things comes around there.
Btw. do i understand this correctly... Is Mike saying that true Orkney island shepherd doesn't necessary need a woman? ;D
-
I noticed in comments around the internet there was mention that the AD5791 chips in the Yggdrasil would need a "heroic deglitcher".
Can someone explain what a deglitcher is and how it operates in the context of a DAC?
-
See HF thread. I answered this yesterday.
-
After 6-9 days, there comes a moment when the Yggy just sort of disappears; difficult to articulate but startling upon first experience.
Yes, I'd be startled and lost for words if my DAC suddenly disappeared.
Some questions -
- Is a disappearing DAC considered a defect under Schiit's warranty? For example if it enters a different reality/universe (via wormhole, etc), would it be replaced under warranty? How about my cat if he goes with?
- Or is this by design and it is supposed to become invisible after break-in?
If this is by design, a remote sure would be handy. :)p8
-
.
Or is this by design and it is supposed to become invisible after break-in?
.
By design. Neat, eh? Thieves break in, but, whatever else you loose, your expensive and much loved DAC remains, because they couldn't see it!
-
...
For non Marv completists who do not keep up with all of his threads:
The DAC in the Yggy is an AD5791BRUZ - Headline specs: 1 ppm 20-Bit, ±1 LSB INL. I use 2 per channel (1 per phase) to get an honest 20 bit level of performance. That is four per Yggy. The BRUZ version is the higher specced model.
.......Snip ......
For the above reasons, I don't expect a lot of competitors to be using it. After all, even analog devices told me it was not designed for audio. The best way to get me to do something is to tell me I can't or shouldn't do it.
Couldn't resist grandstanding -- sorry!
First of all, thanks alot for all that juicy info,
And hell no need to apologize for having the balls to go against the grain to use that BRUZing dac chip!
The fuits of which we will benifit from thanks to you!
I never herd of this "BRUZ" dac...
Sounds very robust!
Like it can puta hurting on those "other" dacs!
Sounds very befitting, compared to other dac names:
"AKM"= sounds feminine like a girl...
"LeSabre"= sounds really gay! :p
"PCM"= sounds cold and robotic.
But BRUZ!(rrrr)
I can practically imagine what brute force will this chip will impose!
:)
-
After 6-9 days, there comes a moment when the Yggy just sort of disappears; difficult to articulate but startling upon first experience.
Hi Mike,
What is the science behind this? Why does the DAC calculate more accurately over time? (e.g. 7 days)
I am prepared to keep mine on 24x7, but appreciate you explain if you have time.
-
I've been lurking about this thread for a couple months before joining/posting, I like the straight-forward telling like it is approach.
Getting back to the Yggy Dac, is there any approx. release date?
-
Reports from people at CanJam are that Mike said it should be available in a few weeks.
-
Thanks, I'll be ordering, hopefully Schiit production run(s) will cover demands.
I'm glad this Dac is priced more within reach of the working class and is solid state.
-
I just want to toss this up here for interesting reading: a very brief look at R2R vs string dacs...
http://www.planetanalog.com/document.asp?doc_id=527548
-
This helps explain why R2R's sound the way they do. At least the small part I understood. :P
Was it saying that temperature drift caused changes to the output?
-
I'm not an EE, but my understanding is the oscillator (VCXO) can be affected by temp changes.
http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/data/crystals/vcxo.php
-
Thanks. Something new I didn't know, which is considerable. Not an EE either. Not close. Just trying to pick up some knowledge when I can. :P I'm wondering why the Yggy has to be on for so long to stabilize and sound as good as it does. I have to think it is thermal in nature.
-
The Yggy Dac Zero auditioned was a pre-production(.96) the final production model(1.0) addressed the warm-up.
-
The Yggy Dac Zero auditioned was a pre-production(.96) the final production model(1.0) addressed the warm-up.
Not really. The Yggy's at CanJam were just starting to show their true colors at the end of the second day, after being left on for the entire time. I suspect they would have sounded better yet if they'd been on for longer. Purr1n wouldn't even use Yggy with his amp until it warmed up for a day.
-
In my case it wouldn't matter, everything stays powered on, except tube preamp, I'm rollin in about an hour after it's fired up.
In the event of bad weather forecast or leaving for extended periods, I shut down and unplug the main line feeding the AC conditioner.
-
so would it be accurate to say that Ragnarok is the "weaker link" in a Rag/Yggy stack?
-
Q: I prefer NOS because the marketing spiel from the NOS DAC manufacturer says that NOS does not muck up the signal. Is the Yggy an NOS DAC?
A: Are you a fucking retard? Do you know what a brick-wall filter does to the original signal on 44.1kHz NOS?
Hmmm...maybe. What does a brick-wall filter do to the NOS signal?
I'm trying to decide between a YGGY and a Metrum dac to go with my Liquid Crimson (now in the gentle hands of Fed-Ex but soon to be here).
DAC's I currently have:
Bifrost UBER which I like but I want something more resolving.
Anedio D2: I find this to be too "thin", and it's hard to describe but I hear a bit of a "sweet zing" in the treble that is distracting.
I listen to a lot of older recordings; 30's - '50's popular and Jazz so I'm also wondering what would be best for poorly recorded stuff.
-
If you want resolution and like the Bifrost Uber, go get the Yggy and don't forget to leave it on.
-
Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I leave everything SS on, so the warm-up everyone talks about won't be a problem.
I'm leaning towards the YGGY. Mainly because I don't think I'll be happy until I try it :-\
Forgot to mention that I also had the Violectric v200 and v800 combo in the past and that sounded blah to me with acoustic music, so I think the Metrum might not be for me. But that's just based on what I've read - people seem to use the same terms to describe their experience of the Metrum's sound and the Violectric sound.
-
Q: I prefer NOS because the marketing spiel from the NOS DAC manufacturer says that NOS does not muck up the signal. Is the Yggy an NOS DAC?
A: Are you a fucking retard? Do you know what a brick-wall filter does to the original signal on 44.1kHz NOS?
Hmmm...maybe. What does a brick-wall filter do to the NOS signal?
As I understand the history... (others, feel free to correct or clarify)
- brick wall filters have been used since the advent of digital audio. digitizing audio introduces an artifact called quantization noise. you don't want to listen to this. filters can eliminate this noise, but at some cost to the high frequency portion of the signal
- by oversampling a digital signal the quantization noise can be pushed further out from the audible range. I don't know whether this eliminates the need for any filter or simply reduces the undesirable impact of the filter that is used
- oversampling as a technique came into vogue and lots of manufacturers implemented it
- problem: many of the oversampling algorithms completely sucked. they introduced a whole host of other, even less desirable artifacts to the signal. some implementations didn't even oversample to integer multiples. for example, 44.1 was oversampled to 96 instead of 88.2, which completely fucks the sound
- solution: the pendulum swings back, and the NOS DAC movement is born - a kind of 'do no harm' principle by keeping music at its original sample rate. IIRC, this movement roughly coincided with the arrival of computer audio and increased access to content with non-redbook (>44.1k) sample rates
- problem: NOS DACs still employ brick wall filters, which are most problematic for the most common digital format, redbook audio
- solution: Yggdrasil attempts to solve both problems by 1) oversampling all digital signals, always, and 2) using an oversampling algorithm that, reportedly, doesn't suck at all... and I, for one, can't wait to hear it
-
Thanks for that answer. I think I almost understand ;)
-
Q: I prefer NOS because the marketing spiel from the NOS DAC manufacturer says that NOS does not muck up the signal. Is the Yggy an NOS DAC?
A: Are you a fucking retard? Do you know what a brick-wall filter does to the original signal on 44.1kHz NOS?
Hmmm...maybe. What does a brick-wall filter do to the NOS signal?
I'm trying to decide between a YGGY and a Metrum dac to go with my Liquid Crimson (now in the gentle hands of Fed-Ex but soon to be here).
DAC's I currently have:
Bifrost UBER which I like but I want something more resolving.
Anedio D2: I find this to be too "thin", and it's hard to describe but I hear a bit of a "sweet zing" in the treble that is distracting.
I listen to a lot of older recordings; 30's - '50's popular and Jazz so I'm also wondering what would be best for poorly recorded stuff.
Going to echo Anax.
If you want something more resolving like Bifrost UBER but with even smoother treble, better textures, better extension on the ends, and way more slam, Yggy is your answer.
Any of the Metrums are less resolving than Bifrost UBER and more laid back, although smoother.
Don't forget to leave Yggy on all the time. About $60 per year about for California high-tier users.
ADD:
Brick-wall filters on Redbook bleeds into the audio-band, and in more egregious cases starts rolloff in the middle of the last octave. Another problem is phase shift in the audio band. Whether these things can be heard or not is a matter of debate.
-
We all know the Yggy's sound comes from it's chassis size and anodized aluminum finish when compared to the 'reference' ODAC. There's no actual audible science that Mike Moffat could possibly unleash to surpass that historic gem of perfection.
facepalm
-
I'll just get the ODAC then and see if Schiit will sell me an empty YGGY chassis (for a reasonable price) to put it in.
-
Confession: I know nothing of the ODAC other than, by inference, the infamous reputation it has earned. Will some kind souls point to their favorite incriminating evidence so I can be fully in on the joke? Thanks.
-
Will some kind souls point to their favorite incriminating evidence so I can be fully in on the joke? Thanks.
I'm not an expert, I haven't listened to the ODAC, but I think the joke has more to do with the claims of the ODAC evangelists (objectivist fundamentalists?) that it's the final word in amplified sound than the amp itself.
-
I emailed Schiit about Yggy release: "Still working on ironing out a date. We’re getting pretty close."
-
ODAC for sale here:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2198.msg60542.html#msg60542
Get your audible perfection now!!
-
ODAC owner here!
It aims to be transparent, and the basis of the hype is, I suppose, that one can't improve on transparency --- unless, of course, it is not to one's personal taste.
Certainly, though, I'd like to compare it with another DAC or two, and I do rather fancy getting some Schiit, although the Y-and-Two-Gs is going to remain out of my reach.
Anyway, I had bad news from the audiologist the other day. My own personal frequency response is probably not worth spending money on --- but that is not necessarily going to stop me! :)p7
-
ODAC is going to kick some Yggy ass~~ :)p7
-
(via HF) Mike Moffat reports they have 30 retail units currently burning in and the order page will go up when they have 60. (aka: very very soon)
-
WHAAAAA?
I'm so excited.
-
Would be nice if they give us the heads up first.
Take my money!
-
Would be nice if they give us the heads up first.
Take my money!
Are you getting one?
-
Let the R2R revolution begin!
-
Yup!
Are you getting one?
-
It's 3 am on the 21st and still no Yggy! Slackers :)
-
Judging from interests built up over the winter, 1st batch is going to be gone very, very quickly... : (
I just don't have time to monitor the release 24x7.
-
I'm happy it's out of my price at the moment anyway. Can sit back and see if it really is as good as advertised. Heck, the awareness it can bring to R2R is worth it, if it delivers everything that has been promised.
-
Yggdrasil is live everyone!
-
BUY BUY BUY!
http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil (http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil)
-
BUY BUY BUY!
http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil (http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil)
Already did woooo!
-
Just placed my order !
-
Ordered!
-
I'm in as well!
-
Arrrrrrrrrdered! :)p3 :)p2
-
Any chance you show the Yggdrasil in Munich next month?
-
Welcome to the future
(Ordered!)
-
MY PAYPAL IS NOT CLEARING
"Oops something went wrong with the Paypal Transaction, please try again."
JASON, MIKE , ALEX, ANYONE PLS!!!
:'( :'( :'(
Edit: Well, tried a few more times and it does not seem to be working. Guess im going to have to wait till the next run. Here's to hoping, someone is allergic to R2R, lives close by or does not mind shipping overseas.
-
Just pay via normal credit card.
-
Dont have one. Just a student =)
I wanted to pay via paypal as i had a bunch of USD in there and i wanted to avoid converting them (since paypal fucks you with exchange fees).
I would use my debit, but, as a starving student, i'm short by literally less than a 100.
Damn.
-
us to can conversion is crappy now, 700$ more…ouch :-DD
-
My order is in! :boom:
-
In for one and already feeling the warm happy glow of new toy syndrome :)p1
-
I'm trying to decide between a YGGY and a Metrum dac to go with my Liquid Crimson (now in the gentle hands of Fed-Ex but soon to be here).
I don't believe anyone around here has heard a Pavane yet, but in a fight of Yggy vs. Hex, my money is on Yggy. If you want to see some Pavane guts you can do so here. Just keep in mind who wrote this, and remember to not believe anything he says in terms of sound.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/metrum/1.html
-
My yggy has shipped!
-
My yggy has shipped!
Grats! That was quick. I was a little bit late on my order due to work.
-
Don't get a Metrum unless you know you want that really smooth, laid-back, glossed-over-details sound. Octave isn't that bad of a value proposition, but Hex is kind of silly (coming from the guy who owned a Quad and Hex and really liked them). There is at least one other NOS DAC around the Hex pricepoint that is flat out better. Pavane is probably a different animal compared to the other Metrum DACs, but it's hella expensive (~$4-5K easily). Generally I don't recommend jumping into NOS unless A) you'ved dabbled in it before and find it's to your tastes or B) tried every other option and have nowhere else to turn.
Most people are going to be better served with the Yggy or similar.
-
This must have "just" popped up, I've been scouring this place and the Schiit website day and night.
-
no, their website says Yggys are in stock and will ship in 5-7 days. get busy!
-
Gosh! You lucky guys!
I guess I'm just going to have to cuddle my ODAC
:-00
-
Thanks 7ryder, I should have looked further ::)
-
Ordered. Happy to be a shitty customer.
-
Has anyone else received their shipping confirmation ? I've only counted one person so far.
-
Has anyone else received their shipping confirmation ? I've only counted one person so far.
I'm 6 order numbers after blitzxgene and I haven't heard anything yet. I'll post when I do.
-
Mike was right, ask him about his big Dac, look at the size of that honkin motherboard, sheesh :-00
-
Has anyone else received their shipping confirmation ? I've only counted one person so far.
zerodeefex has his on the way as well, per head-fi.
-
yup, got a ship confirmation. I posted it elsewhere here as well. Just didn't want to clutter CS with this :)
-
Tracking your Yggy right now.
-
Looks like it's left the burn-in bench! :)p1
-
OMG! Some stole Ravi's from his house. :-0
-
OMG! Some stole Ravi's from his house. :-0
Dammit Anax, that was supposed to be top secret! O.K just give it to me and I'll give it back at the NorCal meet. :&
-
Not in a rush.. ordering now just trying to avoid a 2-3 month back order wait..
-
Aww, you guys found my bench. Thank you!
-
I'm trying to decide between a YGGY and a Metrum dac to go with my Liquid Crimson (now in the gentle hands of Fed-Ex but soon to be here).
I don't believe anyone around here has heard a Pavane yet, but in a fight of Yggy vs. Hex, my money is on Yggy. If you want to see some Pavane guts you can do so here. Just keep in mind who wrote this, and remember to not believe anything he says in terms of sound.
I ordered a Yggy. It weighs more than twice as much as the Hex - better value.
-
Wise decision. There is some level of truth to that. Huge choke in the power supply to filter out gunk. Big transformers to allow for massive power wastage. Basically stuff $50,000 DACs don't even have.
-
BTW, Schiit should REALLY think about making a USB > S/Pdif converter out of their new Gen 3 board. Slap it in a Modi case with BNC and RCA outputs, and immediately kill anything anywhere near the price. It might even be able to take on Steve's Off-Ramp 6 for what, 10-15% as much money? Seems like an absolute no brainer.
-
BTW, Schiit should REALLY think about making a USB > S/Pdif converter out of their new Gen 3 board. Slap it in a Modi case with BNC and RCA outputs, and immediately kill anything anywhere near the price. It might even be able to take on Steve's Off-Ramp 6 for what, 10-15% as much money? Seems like an absolute no brainer.
That actually sounds like a really good idea.
-
That actually sounds like a really good idea.
-
.
Tracking your Yggy right now.
.
.
Aww, you guys found my bench. Thank you!
.
With background music from Jethro Tull.
("Sitting on a park bench... Jethro Tull, Aqualung, for those people who just thought, "Thad's completely lost it this time; that's what cuddling an ODAC does to a man. Sad.")
(a regular earworm with me for the past 45 years, but just those five words. The worm doesn't remember the rest of the song :)p18 )
.
-
I advised a good friend, he ordered as I was telling him about it!
Mine was ordered today, we'll see how it goes :)
-
That actually sounds like a really good idea.
I certainly think so. One of their AC outboard power supplies would likely work perfectly. Suddenly all of the $1K+ converters would start to seem a wee bit overpriced.
-
Well there we go.
(http://i.imgur.com/2pctL7x.jpg)
-
You have just completed your male to female sex change, and you want a socially acceptable computer within your new LGBT community.
Whoa...
:\
-
Whoa...
:\
Yup, that sure did escalate quickly.
-
Mike is from another time when political correctness didn't exist. He's also speaking in the context of being familiar with some of us. This is what I took from it: He's not exactly enamored of Facebook generation idiots*, and how it's now a cool and trendy thing to have LGBT friends, letting everyone you know on Facebook how cool are you, and how tolerant and progressive and all that shit, etc. In other words, narcissists. Apple has a cool factor, and because of that, the brand does attract narcissists. You know, the type that draws attention to themselves by posting pix of their marriage proposals on Facebook or videos of how they've been wronged by customer service on YouTube. The type that have nothing better to do but patrol the Internet and point out other people's stupid minor transgressions against people of color, gays, retards, etc.
Yes, Mike could have used a better selection of words. In my private conversations with Mike, absolutely no one is immune: people with Parkinsons, in wheelchairs, physicians, audiophiles, schlongs, Elon Musk, douchebags, drivers of Tesla automobiles, pygmies, cosplayers, LOTR / D&D losers, etc. It's not the words, but the meaning; and I think the meaning is be pretty clear, especially in the context of the other preposterous points regarding mac users who became mac users for the wrong reasons.*** (Cultural and generationally, I am also not of the PC crowd. LOL, I think that should obvious by now.) I don't think Mike meant any harm. At least he didn't pull off two-faced shit by pretending to celebrate LGBTness on Facebook while privately expressing how disgusting it was to watch two gay guys tongue each other.**
*This does not imply that all people of the Facebook generation are idiots or narcissists.
**This two-faced shit is a lot more common than the PC police would like to believe.
***I actually know people who purchased a mac because it was more acceptable in their Facebook generation LGBT celebrating circle of friends, only to realize the mac didn't easily run most of the programs they needed.
BTW, when I was a kid, white, black and brown kids made slanty eye gestures, called me a chink, stole my lunch money, burned my books, gave me wedgies, put me into headlocks, and threw rocks at my head because I was Asian. Heck, my father-in-law still uses "you orientals". I'm not going to bother correcting him. He's from another time and most importantly, he doesn't intend any real harm. Neither did any of the kids who tormented me. I eventually became good friends with these same kids as later in high school they paid me to do their computer homework and teach them how to commit credit card fraud without getting caught.
Get over it.
-
I found that whole post amusing the first time I read it and thought it was humour. But I do admit to enjoying South Park too. Perhaps that is also "wrong".
I would not be surprised if there will be a time when PC is something for old people like our generations will unavoidably get, and it will start being dropped as a passing fad. History has a tendency like that for new generations to break "taboos".
-
Marvin, short story here, sorry to derail, just had to say this.
Funny you should mention, my BEST neighbor I have is, Asian descent, Sergei, the nicest, most intelligent guy
I ever met, retired engineer, 76 YEARS young.
Anyway, one afternoon I was cutting some big tree limbs and balancing on an aluminum ladder at the same time, he noticed and without hesitation walked right over and held the ladder, so I wouldn't bust my fuckin ass falling 10 feet to the asphalt.
As I proceeded hacking away, the huge limb snapped and came crashing down, right above him! He CALMLY stepped to the side, looked up at me and smiled, get a load of that shit!
Then he grabbed my saw and started cutting smaller pieces for me and hauled the shit to the woods!!!!
How many "good" neighbors do that?
BTW, Yggy arrived today, on the shelf running in for 5 hours, so far, so very nice, cold outta the box.
-
I eventually became good friends with these same kids as later in high school they paid me to do their computer homework and teach them how to commit credit card fraud without getting caught.
This is easily in the top 5 most Asian things I've ever read.
-
Political correctness aside, this thread seems to address every subject under the sun - except the virtues of the Yggdrasil.
The only "real" review I've read claims that the DAC sounds very 2 dimensional in comparison to the MUCH more expensive and much more 3D Total DAC. 3D is what I'm looking for in a DAC and if the Yggy ain't got it, it certainly does not "set a new bar" for DACs.
A number of people have the Yggdrasil up and running but none of them seem to be going out of their way to sing its praises. Schiit is marketing it with a lot of hype like "it really kicks ass" (wow! where do I sign up?) and claiming that they're backordered for months. I'm afraid that when unbiased pro reviews come out the backorder situation will dry up quickly.
I don't mean to come accross as a jerk - maybe it's too late - but I really am a nice guy who is in the market for a DAC. Is anyone aware of any credible, well written reviews of the Yggdrasil, maybe how it stacks up against the Auralic Vega, the Resonessence Invicata Mirus, the Lampizator DACs? I would love to hear some REAL feedback from some who have owned other DACs and are nowusing the Yggdrasil.
Many thanks
-
Political correctness aside, this thread seems to address every subject under the sun - except the virtues of the Yggdrasil.
The only "real" review I've read claims that the DAC sounds very 2 dimensional in comparison to the MUCH more expensive and much more 3D Total DAC. 3D is what I'm looking for in a DAC and if the Yggy ain't got it, it certainly does not "set a new bar" for DACs.
A number of people have the Yggdrasil up and running but none of them seem to be going out of their way to sing its praises. Schiit is marketing it with a lot of hype like "it really kicks ass" (wow! where do I sign up?) and claiming that they're backordered for months. I'm afraid that when unbiased pro reviews come out the backorder situation will dry up quickly.
I don't mean to come accross as a jerk - maybe it's too late - but I really am a nice guy who is in the market for a DAC. Is anyone aware of any credible, well written reviews of the Yggdrasil, maybe how it stacks up against the Auralic Vega, the Resonessence Invicata Mirus, the Lampizator DACs? I would love to hear some REAL feedback from some who have owned other DACs and are nowusing the Yggdrasil.
Many thanks
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2346.0.html
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/1477005/qwop-o.gif)
-
I don't mean to come accross as a jerk - maybe it's too late
Yep. MAYBE.
Check the thread Azteca linked, and maybe provide some more details about what you're using in terms of amp & speakers or headphones... and lose the quotes around real, drop the douchey tone, and get a sense of where you are before you post again...
Good luck. The plank is right over to your left. walk the plank
-
Schiit is marketing it with a lot of hype like "it really kicks ass" (wow! where do I sign up?) and claiming that they're backordered for months.
Please point me to where we said this.
-
Political correctness aside, this thread seems to address every subject under the sun - except the virtues of the Yggdrasil.
The only "real" review I've read claims that the DAC sounds very 2 dimensional in comparison to the MUCH more expensive and much more 3D Total DAC. 3D is what I'm looking for in a DAC and if the Yggy ain't got it, it certainly does not "set a new bar" for DACs.
A number of people have the Yggdrasil up and running but none of them seem to be going out of their way to sing its praises. Schiit is marketing it with a lot of hype like "it really kicks ass" (wow! where do I sign up?) and claiming that they're backordered for months. I'm afraid that when unbiased pro reviews come out the backorder situation will dry up quickly.
I don't mean to come accross as a jerk - maybe it's too late - but I really am a nice guy who is in the market for a DAC. Is anyone aware of any credible, well written reviews of the Yggdrasil, maybe how it stacks up against the Auralic Vega, the Resonessence Invicata Mirus, the Lampizator DACs? I would love to hear some REAL feedback from some who have owned other DACs and are nowusing the Yggdrasil.
Many thanks
Most here have cut the umbilical to your average "review" long ago. They know each other and manage to convey more succinctly than 6Moons can do in 6000 words and a couple acid trips. In general, those who talk don't know and those who know don't talk. They're too busy listening.
Its hard enough to agree on things like "3D soundstage" in person, using the same transducer or headphone. Add in this being online, in a DAC, with everyone having different chains/speakers/room treatment, and it is near meaningless. Those who authoratatively talk about it as if it is an across-the-board trait aren't much worth relying on in either case.
Schiit has sold at good amount of these, and I have not seen a single one up for sale. So if you were to buy one and decide its not for you, you're either paying a restocking fee or selling for minimal loss. Once you have heard it, please write up a "real" review so the rest of us know how to do it.
-
Political correctness aside, this thread seems to address every subject under the sun - except the virtues of the Yggdrasil.
The only "real" review I've read claims that the DAC sounds very 2 dimensional in comparison to the MUCH more expensive and much more 3D Total DAC. 3D is what I'm looking for in a DAC and if the Yggy ain't got it, it certainly does not "set a new bar" for DACs.
A number of people have the Yggdrasil up and running but none of them seem to be going out of their way to sing its praises. Schiit is marketing it with a lot of hype like "it really kicks ass" (wow! where do I sign up?) and claiming that they're backordered for months. I'm afraid that when unbiased pro reviews come out the backorder situation will dry up quickly.
I don't mean to come accross as a jerk - maybe it's too late - but I really am a nice guy who is in the market for a DAC. Is anyone aware of any credible, well written reviews of the Yggdrasil, maybe how it stacks up against the Auralic Vega, the Resonessence Invicata Mirus, the Lampizator DACs? I would love to hear some REAL feedback from some who have owned other DACs and are nowusing the Yggdrasil.
Many thanks
I've auditioned Vega, Invicta, and Lampy 4, 5, and Big 5. Don't know how much more you need to know. Will keep it short. Vega is bright with robotic timbre and leanish bass; Invicta has body and tactility to hide SABREness, but is still slightly strident and gets quite congested in bass; Lampy has good tube implementation (good slam, clear, not distorted warm fuzzy shit), but this tube implementation shows poor DAC implementation - very digital with sibilance, stridency issues. Yggy is more resolving than any of those in terms of microdetail, and has best combination of slam/articulation.
Yggy is the most "3D" with depth and most precise imaging DAC that I have ever heard period. Some others are as good in terms of space (PWD2, Vega, M1, SFD-1) but not precision. This is via speakers using EC tube or Rag as amp. I have not heard TotalDAC. If TotalDAC has more depth, than awesome.
You may also want to check out HF. A few Yggy guys on HF have owned Vega, M7, PWD2, M1, M51, and all sorts of other DACs. You basically have to sort out the posts and see who is who, check their profiles, or just know the guys in question. Both Changstar and HF (DAC focused people) are kind of a smaller subset where a lot of info is communicated via PM.
-
Thank you guys for the excellent information. I truly appreciate it!
Here's the review I read that says it "kicks ass" on the Schiit website:
The Yggdrasil really kicks ass: gobs of detail, from the particular character of tizzy noise of the tape in a Tom Petty recording (yes you could hear it), to the quick little breaths (not the big ones) Gil Shaham takes as he’s getting into something extremely complicated, it’s all there. Perfect tonality, with bass hitting hard and deep, Isaac 'Dickie' Freeman’s voice really comes alive when listening. The sense of space is ridiculous; I can pick out where the audience members are cheering from in Live in Japan.
Thank you again
-
Thank you guys for the excellent information. I truly appreciate it!
Here's the review I read that says it "kicks ass" on the Schiit website:
The Yggdrasil really kicks ass: gobs of detail, from the particular character of tizzy noise of the tape in a Tom Petty recording (yes you could hear it), to the quick little breaths (not the big ones) Gil Shaham takes as he’s getting into something extremely complicated, it’s all there. Perfect tonality, with bass hitting hard and deep, Isaac 'Dickie' Freeman’s voice really comes alive when listening. The sense of space is ridiculous; I can pick out where the audience members are cheering from in Live in Japan.
Thank you again
Note that *we* did not say that. We do not comment on sound quality, nor speculate on what you will perceive. We leave that to reviewers.
-
An interesting DAC for you might be the TotalDAC d1-twelve. 6 DACs of discrete resistor ladders per channel.
http://www.totaldac.com/D1-twelve-eng.htm (http://www.totaldac.com/D1-twelve-eng.htm)
26000 euro
-or-
Light Harmonic Da Vinci
http://lightharmonic.com/products/da-vinci-dac-mkii/ (http://lightharmonic.com/products/da-vinci-dac-mkii/)
near 100K USD now?
I haven't heard them, but I've heard really good things about them.
-
purr1n - After reading your post and the comparisons you made with some of the DACs I mentioned, I am going to buy a Yggdrasil. I'm embarassed by my earlier post, and I hope you all will accept my apologies, I didn't mean to offend anyone.
I have been using an Eastern Electric DAC Plus for a few years now and I believe the Yggdrasil will be a major upgrade. Thank you again for some very helpful information!!
Matt
-
Thank you guys for the excellent information. I truly appreciate it!
Here's the review I read that says it "kicks ass" on the Schiit website:
The Yggdrasil really kicks ass: gobs of detail, from the particular character of tizzy noise of the tape in a Tom Petty recording (yes you could hear it), to the quick little breaths (not the big ones) Gil Shaham takes as he’s getting into something extremely complicated, it’s all there. Perfect tonality, with bass hitting hard and deep, Isaac 'Dickie' Freeman’s voice really comes alive when listening. The sense of space is ridiculous; I can pick out where the audience members are cheering from in Live in Japan.
Thank you again
Schiit did not write that; I wrote that review (it's the first post in this thread). I've collected gear for over a decade and waited almost that long before trying to post impressions on gear as I didn't trust I had enough experience to comment before then. After spending many thousands of dollars on good, great, and crap purchases and many many thousands of hours listening to music, I felt confident enough to post my first actual piece of gear review after my audition of the Yggdrasil.
For reference, I've owned the following DACs over the last 5 years: Chord QB76, QuteHD, Benchmark DAC2 HGC, X-Sabre, TEAC UD-501, Gungnir. Additionally, I've auditioned the Lampi 4, the MSB Analog, the Vega, and the Hugo for at least a few days each. The Yggdrasil was so much better than anything else I've heard or owned that I had to write about it.
-
In general, those who talk don't know and those who know don't talk. They're too busy listening.
Yggy is the most "3D" with depth and most precise imaging DAC that I have ever heard period.
Too busy listening during the precious non-corporate time. For the very reasons purr1n states.
-
In my opinion, seems we're not worrying about comparisons with $what-ever$ Dac anymore, we just shut up and indulge in the music.
From what Zero and Purr1n said, they are right-on, no other review(s) necessary.
The competitors will have to go back to the fuckin drawing boards, Mike and Jason hit this outta the field.
-
Yup. Personally, I feel freed; I've spent the last two years designing / building DAC's - trying to get truly 'transparent' performance within an attainable (for me) price range. Since Yggy, I'm listened more than I have in a long long time. Where I'd usually switch between DAC's - trying to identify the next potential area of improvement, now I just listen.
After a wrap a couple of DAC projects, I'll be focusing on the Analog side of things.
-
Most things I find the best I tend to not review, for whatever reason. Notice I've never reviewed HD800s or the X-Sabre, and only did the Ragnarok because I had the other two amps, and things needed to be settled with the GS-X2. I think it's difficult for me to review whatever I consider to be best at the time because it would sound like lavish mindless praise. So instead of sounding like an idiot foaming at the mouth, I simply use the gear to listen to good music. I have a feeling a lot of people here are finding the Yggdrasil difficult to describe for the same reasons and are simply not commenting much and certainly not formulating full length reviews on the subject.
As far as I'm concerned I am completely done with headphone audio. It doesn't get better than this for my tastes. (HD800/Rag/Ygg)
-
I read all 35 pages of this thread this evening and just placed my order for the DAC. It was a very easy decision. Thank you again (purr1n and zerodeefex in particular) for taking the time to reiterate many of the observations you had already documented about the Yggdrasil throughout this thread, but which I hadn't taken the time to search out and read before posting my smart remarks earlier today. Your reviews are extremely informative and I appreciate them!
I can't wait to hear the DAC...... but I guess I will have to.... at least until sometime hopefully early in July.
Matt
-
I recently did series of demonstrations at local hifi store that has Yggdrasil in stock. To be honest it was kind of hard to get a handle on the sound from the demo. The Ygg was burned in but HD 800 were unmodified and using different cable, amplifier was the GSX mkii rather than my Master 6, oh and the setup was pretty rudimentary compared to my home setup which I have spent years and many thousands on system setup ie cables, rack, vibration gear. Honestly when I was listening to the Yggdrasil I was impressed, but when I got home, my home setup kind of destroyed the store demo (way more resolving)
I did not give up, I returned and compared Ygg to a Vega, and the conclusion of that was my placing an order for the Yggdrasil. Ygg was just as tight and clear as the Vega but with so much more nuance and timbral information, and a lack of dryness, grain, and occasional misbehaviour I get from my sabre DAC. I. Will only know for sure when I get the Ygg in my home setup but I expect once all things are equal this should be a huge step up from my current nfb7 sabre dac. I should also note the Vega was not warmed up fully, and was using an optical Digital input from the same Aeries streamer.
I also hope my ATX linear psu can be repaired, after it burned in it just fixed so much that was wrong with my dac, bringing more detail and focus, and taking away glare and grain, before it set off a smoke alarm LOL. I can only imagine that Ygg in this setup should be sublime.
-
Vega can warm up till the cows come home, won't matter compared to the Yggy. Might as well accelerate the process and launch it directly into the sun.
-
After a week, I'm only now beginning to understand the term " the equipment disappears". Listening to Aja and feels like I'm in the studio.
-
"Vega can warm up till the cows come home, won't matter compared to the Yggy. Might as well accelerate the process and launch it directly into the sun." +1!
"After a week, I'm only now beginning to understand the term " the equipment disappears". Listening to Aja and feels like I'm in the studio." +1!
Ditto and Like-Wise.
-
So I am listening to a Reference Recordings sampler with notable musicians recorded in great spaces using impeccable mics, preamps and Pacific Microsonics ADC. 176 KHz recordings. Played through the yggdrasil, ZDSE and HD800 / TH900 creates the most realistic presentation I have ever experienced outside of being in the recording space.
-
Finally got to hear to the Stax 009 with Yggy. I upgraded my DSOTM with the DSOTM Immersion set. Pink Floyd's On the Run. The slam is much better than the Yggy and with the details and transparency of the Stax, I'm hearing things like a running person's footsteps that I did not hear before! Anax and OJ, a little mercy please ;)
Add: The next song Time, wooh! Clocks ticking, cymbals, snare drum OMG. Daughter just grabbed my Stax and listening to Time. Her only comment: Where did the bass come from? She is used to compressed mp3s.
-
Think you have a typo there. Not sure what you are comparing...
-
Vega can warm up till the cows come home, won't matter compared to the Yggy. Might as well accelerate the process and launch it directly into the sun.
Lol good to know I'm not missing anything. I think I will be happy with Yggy.
-
Rounding back to the Mac vs PC thing for audio, I don't get it. I've been a Mac Systems Admin for the last decade. I know what Macs can do and not do and all the arguments surrounding. I'm also a Linux and PC guru. I tend to use whatever the implementation calls for.
But one thing I have not heard is a quality output from a Mac optical or USB out. I've never bothered with trying to correct the source clock. The random Asus Motherboard optical link out over a crappy plastic $5 sears purchased optical cable (which seems to lock higher bit rates than expensive glass cables) has in my listening experience been the best for me. I'm guessing its just pure fucking luck actually. Nothing portable IMHO has been able to compete.
Every time I've connected the output of a Mac to a speaker rig or even my Headphone rig, its been somewhat disappointing. However I'm using Foobar on my PC because of its output capability. An equivalent for free on the Mac platform which can circumvent Coreaudio and touch the hardware directly has not been forthcoming. Maybe I've not tried hard enough because I have something working correctly on my Desktop PC. What do the Mac fanboys use that works?
Reading Mike's post I see (If I understood it correctly) the the Yggy gets around the conundrum with filtering in the time domain. Guessing he had to to fix USB that was never meant for proper audio and the others which all fell short.
-
Audirvana+ on the Mac or Amarra. JRiver just sounded bad compared to those two. The Amarra was warmer/lusher with a closer presentation. Differences might be bigger with speakers (and a real soundstage) or with more tweaking, but my quick comparos led me to those very general impressions. After getting my next two main rigs together, I will revisit Audirvana+ and Amarra. Unless I hear that the Mac version of JRiver got better, I won't bother. At least a couple of people said that they thought JRiver sounded better on PC and didn't use it on Mac. Would love to hear any incidental observations that anyone else has. And this is a good reminder that we should all do regression testing of each factor in the chain, especially when we bring an important new piece of gear home. I shoulda tried both players with Yggy while I had Yggy in the house. Yggy might have even liked Amarra more than Audirvana+, which has been my default. And my Mac lags when I use it, but AmarraSQ sounded better than Tidal by itself as a streaming audio engine and EQ. My next Mac portable will have more horsepower...
-
Shizaida: What software were you using on your Macbook to feed the Yggy when we came over?
-
Shizaida: What software were you using on your Macbook to feed the Yggy when we came over?
Audirvana
-
An equivalent for free on the Mac platform which can circumvent Coreaudio and touch the hardware directly has not been forthcoming. Maybe I've not tried hard enough because I have something working correctly on my Desktop PC. What do the Mac fanboys use that works?
AFAIK Audirvana is the only player which bypasses CoreAudio, which means it's the only player which can operate in true integer mode.
Pre-10.7 players could request direct access to the DAC, but Apple since removed that capability. No player operating through CoreAudio (after 10.6) can claim to be bit perfect.
-
Pure Music also has an integer mode. VOX can do "hog" mode (exclusive access) which may be the same thing? 5 minutes of google didn't turn up much useful info.
-
Jriver has had this since October 2013.
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84657.0