CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

Main Deck => Discussion for Registered Members Only => Topic started by: wnmnkh on October 30, 2014, 07:30:15 AM

Title: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: wnmnkh on October 30, 2014, 07:30:15 AM
No, it is not because I am impatient enough to cancel the order and buy another company's amplifier nor getting bitter about delay.


Currently I am building my Torpedo amp right now, and the incident I just had brought back many bad memories, and made me realize that Ragnarok follows worrisome pattern.


I was searching Head-Fi for Torpedo amp build help. Then, I decided to check some impressions of Ragnarok, and 'left channel buzzing' portion quickly gained my attention. I remember this... Wasn't it very same issue that marv reported during the open beta period? And the answer is yes. I assume this is already reported, yet we are having same problems on the release version of Ragnarok. I do have sensitive cans such as Grado and LCD-X. I am concerned now.

I also noticed there are people having issues with power supply humming. Sure it can be explained because of the Circlotron circuit and complex transformer wiring... but again, with such a lot of power going on, it can be other issues, and I am also having some worries here as well. Stuffs like tap noise on volume control also raise my eyebrows too.

It is not like Schiit has clean record on launch unit problems. Even disregard first Asgard, we definitely had some problems with Asgard 2 and Vali launch units. Ragnarok is far more complex product and will be far more problematic if these problems persist.

I am not sure. I just learned other guy that order number is right next to me is saying his amp won't be done until 11/14. Laura told me my unit may be shipping at end of this week. I will probably ask her about my Rag shipping date next Monday again (sorry! Laura) and if my unit is also indeed delayed like his case, I might ask her either just cancel the order or postpone until all of these early issues are fixed.



That said, I do not have good experience with "Made In USA" stuffs.


I have zero illusion about these 'Made In USA' propaganda. The mere fact that I always have troubles with those USA manufacturers, particularly audio companies.




1) Audeze :

Seriously these guys. always full of launch unit issues. And it is not just fixable stuffs such as pad issues. For a very long time, I have a huge bias against LCD-3, because when I first heard it, it literally sounded like an AM radio. No soundstage, no high, low resolution... it was like listening to a fine-tuned AM radio. Hard to believe they made a headphones that sounded worse than LCD-2 and put twice higher pricetag. It took me a while to convince myself to listen to LCD-3 again (after Audeze finally claimed that they resolved issues) and realized my first listening pair was really bad one.

Again, similar thing happened to my launch unit LCD-X. When I received directly from Audeze itself... The headband leather was in very poor condition, pads were squeezed, the damping baffles were poorly installed... I sent the unit back to Audeze. They fixed the baffles and replaced pads, but they did not acknowledge the condition of headband. I bought some leather restoration/care stuffs to 'fix' the headband. The fact that this headphone costs 1.7K USD, I am not so sure why this QA is acceptable for Audeze. Not to mention, after I bought my LCD-X, which is gun-metal one, Audeze decided to just make black version only. Inconsistency at its best.

Oh wait, I remember now. They had similar issues on their first commercial product, LCD-2, with ton of hasted revisions. After such poor experience with LCD-X, I wonder if I buy another headphones from this company.


2) Grado :

Tons of cosmetic issues, from the cheapest ones to the most expensive ones. Except SR-225 and PS-500, literally every other Grado I've bought - SR-60, MS-1, MS-2, PS-1000, RS-1. ALL of them have some sort of cosmetic issues. And they are not something that subtle. PS-1000 had a metal chipped off at very viable area of the cup. MS-1 and MS-2 had cable problems. I mean... PS-1000 is 1.7K USD. Isn't it hard to look up the cups at least once on expensive headphones? Unlike Audeze, Grado actually has generous warranty repairs, so I respect that point.

It is fortunate I never had other serious issues (i.e : poor wood quality on RS series, kidnapped HP1000, driver imbalances, etc), but I believe that wood quality debacle pretty much ruined Grado's reputation in Head-Fi.

(Oh, also like LCD-X, PS-1000 quickly went a huge cosmetic change right after it was released)


3) Schiit :

Surprise! I do have some uncomfortable issues with our beloved amplifier/DAC company. After 2 months of uses, Asgard 2 developed problem with noise on left channel. So it was RMA'd and they decided to send me a new unit instead of trying fixing my old one. Well, new one had a nasty habit to make 'tick' 'tock' sound when it warmed up. I talked to Schiit again, and they said it's normal to have such sound. Except, I never had such issue on my first Asgard 2. I closely inspected the amp and quickly found the problem; the grill on the vent was slightly misaligned. That misaligned area was making the sound due to thermal expansion from the case and grill.

My Bifrost also had cosmetic issues, but they were very slight and nearly invisible, so I decided to not bitch about it. Unlike others', my Vali has zero problem other than expected microphonic issue, which disappears very quickly when everything is set.


4) Koss :

Woohoo! No problems with them whatsoever, even cosmetic stuffs! Very ironic that I am getting best possible quality from a company which makes very bottom barrel priced products.


Sigh, maybe it is a sign that I need to go sleep and stop worrying about everything... Oh well, back to assembling Torpedo now.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Marvey on October 30, 2014, 07:39:03 AM
You can always buy a TOTL amp from Eddie Current and wait three to five months.
Or a Cavalli LG and wait two months, maybe less.
Or a TOTL amp from Head-Amp and wait several years.
Or get an A-GD Masturbater 1 or 9 or 14 or whatever from China and get it in weeks.


Lots of choices for great amps.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Maxvla on October 30, 2014, 07:57:05 AM
I have zero problems with my Ragnarok. I've had it running virtually the entire time it's been out of the box and tried everything.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: aive on October 30, 2014, 07:58:32 AM
Or you can build your own TOTL amp ;) Might not look as nice, but it'll sound good.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: cizx on October 30, 2014, 08:07:03 AM
They told me "could be several more weeks" when I asked about my 10/14 order this week.  I trust them to stand behind the amp, and I don't mind the wait.  If there's buzzing or humming, I'll RMA it and wait another month.  I'd like it to be better, but I think Schiit vs anyone else is a good trade off, even with these issues.

I've owned almost the entire Schiit line at some point, and I've never had any technical problems.  Audeze, too, and no issues there.  It's a crapshoot, but what the hell else am I doing with my time and money?
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Audio Jester on October 30, 2014, 11:59:12 AM
Don't they offer a 15 day money back guarantee? If you get one and it is not up to snuff just ask for your money back and get something else.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: cizx on October 30, 2014, 01:05:40 PM
minus a restocking fee, I think.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: wnmnkh on October 30, 2014, 02:32:25 PM
You can always buy a TOTL amp from Eddie Current and wait three to five months.
Or a Cavalli LG and wait two months, maybe less.
Or a TOTL amp from Head-Amp and wait several years.
Or get an A-GD Masturbater 1 or 9 or 14 or whatever from China and get it in weeks.


Lots of choices for great amps.

You have missed my point. I have no problem for waiting. I do have problem on reliability.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Kirosia on October 30, 2014, 02:39:50 PM
Surprise! I do have some uncomfortable issues with our beloved amplifier/DAC company. After 2 months of uses, Asgard 2 developed problem with noise on left channel. So it was RMA'd and they decided to send me a new unit instead of trying fixing my old one. Well, new one had a nasty habit to make 'tick' 'tock' sound when it warmed up. I talked to Schiit again, and they said it's normal to have such sound. Except, I never had such issue on my first Asgard 2. I closely inspected the amp and quickly found the problem; the grill on the vent was slightly misaligned. That misaligned area was making the sound due to thermal expansion from the case and grill.

Was it a wind noise that would go up and down, like someone was blowing into your ear, separate from the level of volume? I have that. Not sure if it's interference or a defect, and I'd send it in if I was positive it was the latter.

Bought mine quite a few months after launch though.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Marvey on October 30, 2014, 04:01:09 PM
You have missed my point. I have no problem for waiting. I do have problem on reliability.

5 year warranty
says that on the website.

If you are worried, wait or buy something else. I certainly did with Audeze.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: cizx on October 30, 2014, 04:16:15 PM
Yeah, what Purrin said.  Five  years is plenty of time to work out the bugs. 

Is there anything else, for you, that represents a similar value to the Ragnarok?  If so, then don't even think about it.  Go with that other thing.  If not, then go with Ragnarok.

Same with anything, really.  Besides, this is probably just a hobby.  Schiit isn't saving lives.  Do whatever makes you happy.

If your order number is lower than mine, though, I'll trade with you. ;)
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Byrnie on October 30, 2014, 04:28:25 PM
No, it is not because I am impatient enough to cancel the order and buy another company's amplifier nor getting bitter about delay.

Currently I am building my Torpedo amp right now, and the incident I just had brought back many bad memories, and made me realize that Ragnarok follows worrisome pattern.

I was searching Head-Fi for Torpedo amp build help. Then, I decided to check some impressions of Ragnarok, and 'left channel buzzing' portion quickly gained my attention. I remember this... Wasn't it very same issue that marv reported during the open beta period? And the answer is yes. I assume this is already reported, yet we are having same problems on the release version of Ragnarok. I do have sensitive cans such as Grado and LCD-X. I am concerned now.

I also noticed there are people having issues with power supply humming. Sure it can be explained because of the Circlotron circuit and complex transformer wiring... but again, with such a lot of power going on, it can be other issues, and I am also having some worries here as well. Stuffs like tap noise on volume control also raise my eyebrows too.

It is not like Schiit has clean record on launch unit problems. Even disregard first Asgard, we definitely had some problems with Asgard 2 and Vali launch units. Ragnarok is far more complex product and will be far more problematic if these problems persist.

I am not sure. I just learned other guy that order number is right next to me is saying his amp won't be done until 11/14. Laura told me my unit may be shipping at end of this week. I will probably ask her about my Rag shipping date next Monday again (sorry! Laura) and if my unit is also indeed delayed like his case, I might ask her either just cancel the order or postpone until all of these early issues are fixed.

That said, I do not have good experience with "Made In USA" stuffs.

I have zero illusion about these 'Made In USA' propaganda. The mere fact that I always have troubles with those USA manufacturers, particularly audio companies.
Personally I'm impatient so I would probably be going nuts right now (if I were in your shoes).  I know I probably annoyed the Moon-Audio folks when I noticed my HE-560s hadn't been shipped out after two days since my order.  I called them thinking there was something wrong with my credit card or something and they said it just hadn't shipped out yet.  So after I asked why it hadn't shipped out yet their response with a short chuckle was that they "weren't Amazon" which I kind of annoyed me but w/e because I really feel that after 8 working hours since an order, it should dropped off at UPS/FedEx but maybe that's just me.  Like Marv and others have said there's a lot of great amps out there.  Personally, the Ragnorak seems like it's more than what I need (given I don't care about the speaker amp portion) and I'm not keen on getting all of my headphones re-cabled to balanced (given the balanced is supposed to sound so much better than the SE output) so I'm looking at alternative amps.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Maxvla on October 30, 2014, 04:37:32 PM
Byrnie, consider the ECP Black Diamond. Quite an amp for just 'unbalanced'.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Byrnie on October 30, 2014, 04:48:39 PM
Byrnie, consider the ECP Black Diamond. Quite an amp for just 'unbalanced'.
I will and thank you.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Azteca X on October 30, 2014, 04:51:48 PM
Personally, the Ragnorak seems like it's more than what I need (given I don't care about the speaker amp portion) and I'm not keen on getting all of my headphones re-cabled to balanced (given the balanced is supposed to sound so much better than the SE output) so I'm looking at alternative amps.

I would love it if there was a product that was basically a less powerful Ragnarok. Take out the speaker portion, probably give it less juice. I don't know, maybe that would suck the magic out but I don't see myself using it as a speaker amp.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: cizx on October 30, 2014, 05:03:28 PM
Isn't that Mjolnir, or did you want to take out XLR too?  I know Rag's supposed to be more resolving and stuff, so maybe not.  I wish I could tell you from experience!
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Byrnie on October 30, 2014, 05:11:21 PM
Personally, the Ragnorak seems like it's more than what I need (given I don't care about the speaker amp portion) and I'm not keen on getting all of my headphones re-cabled to balanced (given the balanced is supposed to sound so much better than the SE output) so I'm looking at alternative amps.
I would love it if there was a product that was basically a less powerful Ragnarok. Take out the speaker portion, probably give it less juice. I don't know, maybe that would suck the magic out but I don't see myself using it as a speaker amp.
For my needs/preferences, my top choice is the AURALiC Taurus MK2.  Keep in mind, I haven't heard the M9 or Rag and also that Anaxilus found it slightly bright (I think I'm quoting him accurately).
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Anaxilus on October 30, 2014, 05:42:37 PM
Personally, the Ragnorak seems like it's more than what I need (given I don't care about the speaker amp portion) and I'm not keen on getting all of my headphones re-cabled to balanced (given the balanced is supposed to sound so much better than the SE output) so I'm looking at alternative amps.
I would love it if there was a product that was basically a less powerful Ragnarok. Take out the speaker portion, probably give it less juice. I don't know, maybe that would suck the magic out but I don't see myself using it as a speaker amp.
For my needs/preferences, my top choice is the AURALiC Taurus MK2.  Keep in mind, I haven't heard the M9 or Rag and also that Anaxilus found it slightly bright (I think I'm quoting him accurately).

I found the original unit at RMAF bright and analytical with some digititus.  Some evidence out there suggests it was retuned to be warmer sounding for headphone listening.  Can't verify this.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: DrForBin on October 31, 2014, 04:34:24 AM
hello,

You have missed my point. I have no problem for waiting. I do have problem on reliability.

gosh, seems like you've had a lot of bad luck.

perhaps your choices change.

based on historic reputation for reliability: McIntosh MHA100

based on being intended for pro use (assuming pro gear is designed not to break): spl Phonitor 2

i am having a bit of a disconnect regarding any blanket statement implying that products from country of origin X are all crap or all wonderful.

(i own two old, low production/importation vehicles. parts and service are an ongoing nightmare. neither is for sale.)

i also am troubled by the notion that companies with a history of poor QA can never make an acceptable product.

the other notion is that from my research the firms mentioned are all relatively small shops: i.e. per Mr Stoddard's book on that other place, 6 employees, per Manta: Audeze 15 folks, Grado Labs 10-19. this is not to forgive a small company for producing bad products, but if they have a transparent RMA program and a warranty you can live with, why so much bile? also, if your experience with a particular company is so bad, why initiate an order in the first place?

reliability is something that emerges over time. it is disingenuous to claim that a newly released product is reliable or not. again, the RMA program and the warranty, if they meet your needs, are the most salient data-points.


Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Anaxilus on October 31, 2014, 05:26:47 AM
TLDR; Made in the USA still means something even if it's not what you thought it once meant.  If you expect an Omega for the price of a Timex, you're just crazy.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: wnmnkh on October 31, 2014, 07:58:12 PM
No, I don't expect miracles only because they are 'Made In USA'. What I want is a product with good reliability, really.

Warranty period is about as worthy as the company's general customer policy. There are stuffs I got denied (ticking sound, headband) as I mentioned in the first thread, and there are also incidents that company goes extra mile for me when they did not have to.

The only reason I buy Schiit products is really performance-per-price on sound. Currently I am comparing my Torpedo and Vali, and I do not find any significant difference in sonic quality between two amps. Except Torpedo costs 150~200 without case (with case, it goes to 300) and Vali costs only 130 with taxes. Asgard 2 caused troubles, but it still outperformed a lot of more expensive SS amps' I've heard. Also other than cosmetic issues and Asgard 2, all of Schiit products (Bifrost, Gungnir, Vali) are working fine.

However, a bit slowly, I am realizing that sound quality may not be the most important factor buying the equipment. I learned the lesson with Grado and rest of high-end on-ear headphones.

That said, it's nearly 1 PM here and I have not heard anything from Schiit. My guess is my order is also delayed by two weeks. I should be bitter about delay, but instead I am almost feeling relief..  :)p7


I will ask them about the delay on Monday, but I have not still made up my mind.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: schiit on October 31, 2014, 08:38:17 PM
Seriously, if you have any doubts, cancel your order. Simple as that.

With respect to you other problems:

1. Bifrost: did you contact us regarding the cosmetic issues? What are they? It is certainly not our intention to send out cosmetic blems, unless they are sold as B-stock. If your Bifrost was A-stock, and not purchased through Fulfillment By Amazon (we are currently in a fight with them to return to us any returned products, rather than turning them around and selling as new), let me know and we'll make it right. If it is FBA, contact Amazon and return it, they will take care of you. Plus, it advances our case for never having them exercise their "judgement" about what is "resellable" or not.

2. Asgard 2: yes, the amp gets very warm, and steel and aluminum have dissimilar thermal expansion coefficients. So some of them make weird noises when warming up. The one on my desk does so. About 99.9% of them do not. If you'd like us to take a look at it, please let me know, and we will take a look at it, or swap it for another one.

With respect to other perceived "problems" with our gear, here are some real statistics:

1. DOA Units, 2014: <0.01%
2. Operational or cosmetic issues, 2014: <0.04%
3. Packing/Shipping issues, 2014: <0.5% (working on this, changed some procedures)

These numbers are despite having 6 product launches in 2014 to date, which usually results in some skewing of the numbers. The packing/shipping issue would be much less if we hadn't introduced, say, a 6VAC wall-wart that looks pretty much like our 16VAC wall-wart (despite resizing the power connector so that there won't be any "ahh, blown up product" moments.

Consider we are currently on a ship rate of 40,000+ products per year, and our entire repair staff is a single person who comes in one day a week—literally, for all products, from company inception.

Mike and I have been doing this for a *long* time, and I believe if we are good at anything, it's in making reliable products that stand the test of time.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: cizx on October 31, 2014, 08:53:05 PM
see, now I want to buy TWO ragnaroks...

but seriously, Jason's first line is it.  if you're not comfortable about what you're doing, don't do it.

I understand the impulse to post on a board to talk about what you're obsessing over, but that always comes back to bite you in court...  walk the plank2
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: wnmnkh on October 31, 2014, 09:50:33 PM
Seriously, if you have any doubts, cancel your order. Simple as that.

With respect to you other problems:

1. Bifrost: did you contact us regarding the cosmetic issues? What are they? It is certainly not our intention to send out cosmetic blems, unless they are sold as B-stock. If your Bifrost was A-stock, and not purchased through Fulfillment By Amazon (we are currently in a fight with them to return to us any returned products, rather than turning them around and selling as new), let me know and we'll make it right. If it is FBA, contact Amazon and return it, they will take care of you. Plus, it advances our case for never having them exercise their "judgement" about what is "resellable" or not.

2. Asgard 2: yes, the amp gets very warm, and steel and aluminum have dissimilar thermal expansion coefficients. So some of them make weird noises when warming up. The one on my desk does so. About 99.9% of them do not. If you'd like us to take a look at it, please let me know, and we will take a look at it, or swap it for another one.

With respect to other perceived "problems" with our gear, here are some real statistics:

1. DOA Units, 2014: <0.01%
2. Operational or cosmetic issues, 2014: <0.04%
3. Packing/Shipping issues, 2014: <0.5% (working on this, changed some procedures)

These numbers are despite having 6 product launches in 2014 to date, which usually results in some skewing of the numbers. The packing/shipping issue would be much less if we hadn't introduced, say, a 6VAC wall-wart that looks pretty much like our 16VAC wall-wart (despite resizing the power connector so that there won't be any "ahh, blown up product" moments.

Consider we are currently on a ship rate of 40,000+ products per year, and our entire repair staff is a single person who comes in one day a week—literally, for all products, from company inception.

Mike and I have been doing this for a *long* time, and I believe if we are good at anything, it's in making reliable products that stand the test of time.

Hehehehe.. I like you, Jason. I wish I could also say "Don't buy it if you have doubts" to my clients, too.

And hell no. I am not going to contact your company for cosmetic issues unless they are too big and downright unacceptable. The time, effort and money spent to pay the shipping, packing the stuff, drive/walk to nearby postal office to ship stuff, wait for the stuff to be returned.. As a person who needs some precise delivery date to properly receive postal packages (Amazon lockbox is such a godsend to me), I can't afford to do it.

But I do afford to whine about it on Internet. :P

Thing is, many people I know of are in similar situations. They really do not have much time to try to contact customer services and get things right. It takes too much time, effort, and usually ended up with frustration. Instead they carry on with broken products. The number of products that have problem might be slightly higher than what shows up on your paper. (Then again, opposite also happens. I believe people just do not understand why Vali does microphonics)

Amazon is really an expert with this issue. The sole reason it's No.1 online retailer in USA.

That said, I guess I will put some trust on you and Mike's effort. I won't cancel the order then. Let's see how it turns out....


Since you responded to this thread, let me ask about the progress of Ragnarok. I am in order number #20681. The person in Head-Fi whose order number #20682 says his Rag order shipping date is delayed til 14th of November. Am I in same boat? What happened?
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: schiit on October 31, 2014, 09:53:40 PM
It's simply slow going on the Ragnaroks, and lots of orders...do you want *right*, or do you want *fast?*

Still no problem canceling the order, if you aren't truly comfortable. We do not do the "hard sell." In fact, we have no sales staff at all.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: cizx on October 31, 2014, 09:54:25 PM
Whining about cosmetic problems on the internet potentially costs a company a lot more than replacing your product, sir.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: wnmnkh on October 31, 2014, 10:06:05 PM
It's simply slow going on the Ragnaroks, and lots of orders...do you want *right*, or do you want *fast?*

Still no problem canceling the order, if you aren't truly comfortable. We do not do the "hard sell." In fact, we have no sales staff at all.

With brutal honest, I want both as a customer. But if that's not possible, I definitely want 'right' rather than 'fast'.


Whining about cosmetic problems on the internet potentially costs a company a lot more than replacing your product, sir.

It may be, but replacing the product costs a customer more than spending time on internet whining about problems, and I am the customer. :P
That said, I rarely make whining post about product quality on internet forum. Last time I ever made was about Ultrasone I believe (yes, that old Proline series which earpads fall off themselves.)
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: schiit on October 31, 2014, 10:15:20 PM
Some more answers, after some more reading:

Hehehehe.. I like you, Jason. I wish I could also say "Don't buy it if you have doubts" to my clients, too.

You can. Anyone can.


And hell no. I am not going to contact your company for cosmetic issues unless they are too big and downright unacceptable. The time, effort and money spent to pay the shipping, packing the stuff, drive/walk to nearby postal office to ship stuff, wait for the stuff to be returned.. As a person who needs some precise delivery date to properly receive postal packages (Amazon lockbox is such a godsend to me), I can't afford to do it.

You should contact us. I'd love to see what the cosmetic issues are, because, as I said, it's not our intention to ship blem product. Did you buy from us?

But I do afford to whine about it on Internet.

Thing is, many people I know of are in similar situations. They really do not have much time to try to contact customer services and get things right. It takes too much time, effort, and usually ended up with frustration. Instead they carry on with broken products. The number of products that have problem might be slightly higher than what shows up on your paper. (Then again, opposite also happens. I believe people just do not understand why Vali does microphonics)

These are internal numbers, of course, and we have no idea if, say, 90% of the people are actually getting DOAs and simply throwing them in the trash. However, even for internal numbers, they are worth comparing to the industry standard, which runs 10-20X higher.

Amazon is really an expert with this issue. The sole reason it's No.1 online retailer in USA.

Completely disagreed. Have you worked with Amazon as a seller? The reasons they are the #1 reseller:

1. They were there first.
2. They really don't care at all about anything other than one thing: you buying *something.* It doesn't matter what. That's why you can search for "13" retina Macbook Pro" and get results from Asus, Dell, Lenovo, etc.
3. They are profoundly terrible at working with sellers, allowing customers who are even Brand Registry holders to have the buy button taken from them by other sellers selling counterfeit goods. (And, to add insult to injury, the sole remedy the Brand Registry holder has is to buy the competing product, document how it is not their own product, and submit it to Amazon.)
4. When doing Fulfillment By Amazon, they will take returned goods and try to sell them as new, despite our clear directive to return all returned goods to us, for assessment and resale as B-stock.

So why do we work with them? Because they are an important channel. And, as our sales increase through that channel, our ability to get good service increases. They will likely shortly allow our directive on returned goods, for example.

That said, I guess I will put some trust on you and Mike's effort. I won't cancel the order then. Let's see how it turns out....

Since you responded to this thread, let me ask about the progress of Ragnarok. I am in order number #20681. The person in Head-Fi whose order number #20682 says his Rag order shipping date is delayed til 14th of November. Am I in same boat? What happened?

"Some trust" "see how it turns out." Those are not words of confidence. I'd rather cancel the order personally, if I was in that position. Why not do so?
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: cizx on October 31, 2014, 10:25:38 PM
I say cancel... at least until I get mine.  Then order.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: schiit on October 31, 2014, 10:31:16 PM
And more answers, as I read more. Bottom line, I think you should cancel your order, since you are already disinclined from being satisfied with USA-made gear. However, I think some more commentary is in order:

Currently I am building my Torpedo amp right now, and the incident I just had brought back many bad memories, and made me realize that Ragnarok follows worrisome pattern.

I was searching Head-Fi for Torpedo amp build help. Then, I decided to check some impressions of Ragnarok, and 'left channel buzzing' portion quickly gained my attention. I remember this... Wasn't it very same issue that marv reported during the open beta period? And the answer is yes. I assume this is already reported, yet we are having same problems on the release version of Ragnarok. I do have sensitive cans such as Grado and LCD-X. I am concerned now.

I also noticed there are people having issues with power supply humming. Sure it can be explained because of the Circlotron circuit and complex transformer wiring... but again, with such a lot of power going on, it can be other issues, and I am also having some worries here as well. Stuffs like tap noise on volume control also raise my eyebrows too.

Noise/buzz: Those issues are usually related to AC line noise, which we have said that circlotron-style designs are susceptible to. However, the "humming when it is off" I responded to personally, saying that it is simply not possible. Ragnarok disconnects both hot and neutral when the amp is off, so there is exactly zero connection to the wall, other than the ground. The hum was probably caused by another component. Any other hum/noise issues are extensively checked before shipping on ALL of our products, from Magni on up, by instruments and with ears.


It is not like Schiit has clean record on launch unit problems. Even disregard first Asgard, we definitely had some problems with Asgard 2 and Vali launch units. Ragnarok is far more complex product and will be far more problematic if these problems persist.

Yes, we had some problems with Asgard 2, which I explained in the Schiit Happened book (condensed version: bad transformer batch, noisy shop). All were rectified, including bringing back and replacing entire products on our dime. Vali? Nope, other than people getting used to the idea that the amp could ring. At the lower price levels, people really expect it to act like an iPod.

That said, I do not have good experience with "Made In USA" stuffs.

I have zero illusion about these 'Made In USA' propaganda. The mere fact that I always have troubles with those USA manufacturers, particularly audio companies.

And this is where I get really irritated. There is no propaganda in our product descriptions, only fact. We don't say, "Beat the eeeeevill minions of outsourced labor by purchasing only gen-u-wine Made in USA goods!" We say, "Our product is made in the USA. Really made here, with local suppliers." This is a statement of fact. Not propaganda. It matters to some people. Not to others. It is our choice to do this, and I have been very frank about the pros and cons of doing so in the Schiit Happened book.

The fact that you perceive this as propaganda is the same way people think we're "against the eeeevil objectivists" or that "we hate evillllll op-amp designs," or that "we are a bunch of boobs who design by ear because we don't think measurements are god." Again, this is interpretation of what we say. We say, "We prefer discrete designs when possible," and some people take that as an indictment of all op-amp designs. We say, "we use both measurements and ears to design our products," and piss off both the objectivists and subjectivists, or at least some of them, because they perceive it as an attack. Whereas what we are doing is saying what we do.

Go ahead, give me negative karma. Just calling it as I see it. The same, no doubt, as you are doing. While you are exercising your right as a customer, I am exercising my right as an engaged business owner. There is no fault in not being able to find common ground.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Anaxilus on October 31, 2014, 10:47:47 PM
I can't believe waiting 2 weeks for 11/14 to ship is such a big deal to some people.  I'd tell someone like that to just pick up whatever they can find at Walmart or Best Buy.  Personally I wouldn't even make you one of my hamburgers and tell you to hit up the 99 cent menu at McDonalds.  That's made in America....South America.  Sorry, but this self entitled sense of faux urgency just irks me like no other.  It's a frickin' amp, not a dialysis machine.  It's just a stupid looking box that sits on your desk.  It doesn't even make coffee.

Jason and Mike never even wanted to make Statement products for Schiit so I don't think they or whoever is behind you in line would mind if you cancelled.  That's a lot of money to spend on something you don't seem to believe in.  What's wrong with waiting and seeing other impressions and reviews?

I truly have never comprehended the expectation that boutique audio or even kickstarter campaigns need to deliver on a fast food or off the shelf schedule.  What's the effin' hurry and why the unrealistic expectations?  Does the world revolve around one person's individual schedule somehow?  Learn to meditate or just go outside and look up at the sky.  Geez.

The best things in the world are worth waiting for.  You seriously make me want to burn my mail order bride catalog.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: MisterRogers on October 31, 2014, 10:57:03 PM
Just send it to me if you're done with it Mike :-)
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Hands on October 31, 2014, 11:50:44 PM
What happens if you die before you get it and are stuck in purgatory because you didn't get an amp in time? Genuine concern.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Marvey on November 01, 2014, 12:29:33 AM
Some more answers, after some more reading:

Hehehehe.. I like you, Jason. I wish I could also say "Don't buy it if you have doubts" to my clients, too.

You can. Anyone can.


I ran the IT practice for an audit/consulting firm which pulled in a few million in revenues each year. There were always clients that I was more than willing to let go to another firm. Mainly because they were a pain in the ass. Too many "concerns", too many questions, too many special line items in the contracts, RFPs to be answered in an onerous prescriptive format, etc. If they did go with us, it would usually end up costing us money. We learned over time to give them a higher price so they would go to our competitors and cause them (our competitors) to waste their time or lose their money.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: wnmnkh on November 01, 2014, 12:40:26 AM
Oh jeez. I am not going to use quotations because this is getting long, and you look very frustrated.



About your amazon comments. Indeed no.3 and no.4 are not something I was clearly aware of (selling B-stock as New definitely raised my eyebrows), but I doubt about no.1 and no.2.

Well, they were kinda first, but there were tons of competitors, and they were about as early as Amazon.. Such as Ebay and Yahoo Auction (and hey! our country also had Auction.co.kr. Too bad they had to give in and absorbed into Ebay). Sure, Amazon was acting as a retailer and Ebay & Yahoo were auction sites... but they had same goal essentially (and as of today, both two are very similar). Except Amazon had a better idea what customers liked (Amazon Prime, return policy, and recently lockbox) while Ebay didn't do well on that... unfortunately.

And of course, they are retailers, and they should care about selling stuffs. Sure, I feel disturbed by all of horror stories at fulfillment centers and recent debacles with book publishers, but the point is they are indeed best at making me buying something. There are other tons of companies downright terrible at selling products to their own customers, it is not something we can easily disregard as a mere trick. Sure, I typed "13" retina Macbook Pro" and I am getting just covers and stuffs... but there is a clear limitation on in-site search engine and other competitors (i.e Ebay) is worse in this regard.



About 'Made In USA' part, well... duh.... I get it you guys are just stating the fact. Surely my choice of word 'propaganda'. I am sorry about it. But this 'Made In USA' mark is heavily abused in recent years. I still remember Google tried to sell its overpriced home-server product and touted as "100% made in USA" and Apple's focus on 'Made In USA' for their Mac Pro (while not mentioning the fact that rest of their products are made in China, and in abused, harsh, worker-hostile environment). So let's just say I got allergic toward that claim.

I am not sure it can be said I am disinclined from being satisfied with USA-made gear. As another member said, I probably had a lot of bad luck on USA products in past, and probably more hesitate toward USA-made gears, that's it. If I don't have any more troubles and good experience (like, all of Koss products and recently this amazing SP540 headphones), then my perspective changes. It is not that I am completely fixed into the root, saying "Dur hur hur, all USA-made are terrible! Anti-USA! Glory to Soviet Russia!" People change over the time, and I look forward your company's Ragnarok accelerate that process (as well as your incoming product, Fulla as well.)

I understand you and Mike put a lot of effort on product quality. I will definitely remind myself about it.


Take some sleep. I think you need it, and enjoy happy halloween.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: wnmnkh on November 01, 2014, 12:42:58 AM
Not sure why people keep thinking I wrote this because of delay.. I think I made myself very clear at very first sentence.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Maxvla on November 01, 2014, 12:45:24 AM
Jason, I thought you were done with the book, and here you are getting a head start on "The second worst customer, ever." chapter?!
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: 7ryder on November 01, 2014, 01:56:13 AM
too funny, I have the same aversion to products made in South Korea

Samsung  poo
LG  poo
and don't get me started on iriver, although A&K is the  poo :)p13
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: BournePerfect on November 01, 2014, 02:21:16 AM
Oh jeez. I am not going to use quotations because this is getting long, and you look very frustrated.



About your amazon comments. Indeed no.3 and no.4 are not something I was clearly aware of (selling B-stock as New definitely raised my eyebrows), but I doubt about no.1 and no.2.

Well, they were kinda first, but there were tons of competitors, and they were about as early as Amazon.. Such as Ebay and Yahoo Auction (and hey! our country also had Auction.co.kr. Too bad they had to give in and absorbed into Ebay). Sure, Amazon was acting as a retailer and Ebay & Yahoo were auction sites... but they had same goal essentially (and as of today, both two are very similar). Except Amazon had a better idea what customers liked (Amazon Prime, return policy, and recently lockbox) while Ebay didn't do well on that... unfortunately.

And of course, they are retailers, and they should care about selling stuffs. Sure, I feel disturbed by all of horror stories at fulfillment centers and recent debacles with book publishers, but the point is they are indeed best at making me buying something. There are other tons of companies downright terrible at selling products to their own customers, it is not something we can easily disregard as a mere trick. Sure, I typed "13" retina Macbook Pro" and I am getting just covers and stuffs... but there is a clear limitation on in-site search engine and other competitors (i.e Ebay) is worse in this regard.



About 'Made In USA' part, well... duh.... I get it you guys are just stating the fact. Surely my choice of word 'propaganda'. I am sorry about it. But this 'Made In USA' mark is heavily abused in recent years. I still remember Google tried to sell its overpriced home-server product and touted as "100% made in USA" and Apple's focus on 'Made In USA' for their Mac Pro (while not mentioning the fact that rest of their products are made in China, and in abused, harsh, worker-hostile environment). So let's just say I got allergic toward that claim.

I am not sure it can be said I am disinclined from being satisfied with USA-made gear. As another member said, I probably had a lot of bad luck on USA products in past, and probably more hesitate toward USA-made gears, that's it. If I don't have any more troubles and good experience (like, all of Koss products and recently this amazing SP540 headphones), then my perspective changes. It is not that I am completely fixed into the root, saying "Dur hur hur, all USA-made are terrible! Anti-USA! Glory to Soviet Russia!" People change over the time, and I look forward your company's Ragnarok accelerate that process (as well as your incoming product, Fulla as well.)

I understand you and Mike put a lot of effort on product quality. I will definitely remind myself about it.


Take some sleep. I think you need it, and enjoy happy halloween.


You seem to be taking a lot of preconceived notions and misguided opinions about the evils of corporate America-and aiming them at Schiit for reasons unknown. Even after Jason is still trying to resolve your concerns and dig deeper into your problems, though you don't seem forthcoming (where you bought your A2 etc), making it seem like you have an axe to grind.

Just cancel your order, for all our sakes. Maybe Jason should take the liberty of doing it on his own.

Boo fucking hoo.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: wnmnkh on November 01, 2014, 03:17:32 AM
You seem to be taking a lot of preconceived notions and misguided opinions about the evils of corporate America-and aiming them at Schiit for reasons unknown. Even after Jason is still trying to resolve your concerns and dig deeper into your problems, though you don't seem forthcoming (where you bought your A2 etc), making it seem like you have an axe to grind.

Just cancel your order, for all our sakes. Maybe Jason should take the liberty of doing it on his own.

Boo fucking hoo.

Despite with reasoned, clear writings, it is just not possible to avoid paltry people who just want to bite and chew off whenever they can, further going into misrepresenting meanings, with their mouths filled with saliva.

I relinquish from this thread.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Anaxilus on November 01, 2014, 03:17:48 AM
Poll added.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: lmswjm on November 01, 2014, 04:07:36 AM
What was the point of this thread?  With so much doubt, why would anyone waste their time as well as other's with this display? It doesn't seem to me to serve any other purpose other than to troll. Which if that was the goal, it was quite successful.

If a reasonable person had a genuine interest in a product, but had second thoughts on it for various reasons, would'nt they simply wait for more feedback from new users that would be coming in the near future?
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Claritas on November 01, 2014, 06:54:27 AM
I can't believe waiting 2 weeks for 11/14 to ship is such a big deal to some people.  [...]

Jason and Mike never even wanted to make Statement products for Schiit so I don't think they or whoever is behind you in line would mind if you cancelled.  That's a lot of money to spend on something you don't seem to believe in.  What's wrong with waiting and seeing other impressions and reviews?

If an audio company says 3 weeks and it ends up being 6 weeks, that's all right with me because it probably means it's putting the time in to get it right. But if it ends up being 3 months without an e-mail explaining the situation, although that could still have a favorable interpretation, it certainly raises some questions. This is not an issue here because there is no issue here.

My advice to OP, wait till you hear it a meet and save yourself the worry. Best luck!

Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: BournePerfect on November 01, 2014, 07:00:27 AM
Lol Mike(!)
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Byrnie on November 01, 2014, 01:14:34 PM
If an audio company says 3 weeks and it ends up being 6 weeks, that's all right with me because it probably means it's putting the time in to get it right. But if it ends up being 3 months without an e-mail explaining the situation, although that could still have a favorable interpretation, it certainly raises some questions. This is not an issue here because there is no issue here.

My advice to OP, wait till you hear it a meet and save yourself the worry. Best luck!
I hear you but I know I would still start getting a slightly impatient if it took twice (given your scenario). 

I've also noticed this thread is turning into a "lets gang up on wnmnkh" thread which is disappointing.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: DaveBSC on November 01, 2014, 01:21:55 PM
I truly have never comprehended the expectation that boutique audio or even kickstarter campaigns need to deliver on a fast food or off the shelf schedule.  What's the effin' hurry and why the unrealistic expectations?  Does the world revolve around one person's individual schedule somehow?  Learn to meditate or just go outside and look up at the sky.  Geez.

The best things in the world are worth waiting for.  You seriously make me want to burn my mail order bride catalog.

Well said. If you just want "a headphone amp" Music Direct has a whole bunch of them, and a very good product search system as well. Assuming they have stock, MD will ship it out the next day. If you want a Schiit headphone amp though as opposed to just whatever is immediately available at that price point, well then you have to be willing to operate on Schiit's terms. That just comes with the territory, it's no different than anything else. If you are unwilling to do that, don't buy the product.

Made in the USA doesn't really mean much of anything. Blaming Audeze's considerable faults on Schiit also seems rather unfair when the two of them have nothing to do with each other. If a US company has good designs, engineers, and strict production and QC standards, their products will likely be consistent and high quality. If not, they won't.

There are some stereotypes that generally hold true. The Germans tend to needlessly over-engineer and over-complicate things. The Germans and Japanese are generally the best at making knives (Wusthof, Global) and optics.

The Chinese will steal your IP if given any chance to do so, and similarly will use substandard parts if not watched like hawks. QC at Mexican plants can be ZOMG bad. See chewing gum inside Takata airbags. Honda is now getting a real lesson in this.

Made in the USA though at this point I just don't see as either a positive or a negative. Toyota builds in Kentucky and Indiana and their products are reliable. Nissan builds in Tennessee and Mississippi and their products are not reliable. Thats down to engineering and plant managing, not location.

Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Marvey on November 01, 2014, 04:39:28 PM
I've also noticed this thread is turning into a "lets gang up on wnmnkh" thread which is disappointing.

Yes, I noticed that too. But I'd rather let people have their say and let things naturally calm down. Unnecessarily locking down or deleting posts isn't the answer. We've had huge arguments about really stupid stuff like hamburgers before, and everyone was still friends afterwards. I hope this is still the case.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Kunlun on November 01, 2014, 05:56:15 PM
When it comes to having put down a reasonable chunk of money for a product we haven't heard, I hope we all get our 60 seconds of time to whine while we wait to see if it fulfills our expectations. I mean, nobody likes the feeling of having spent a lot and then not being happy with the purchase. Listening first is ideal but not always possible.

I think wnmnkh maybe led with his chin a little (for the reasons people have pointed out), which took away from the sympathy some would have had for him.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Clemmaster on November 01, 2014, 06:14:13 PM
Things would probably have been a little different if it wasn't for schiit.
Everyone re-read the first post and replace Schiit with Audio-gd and Audeze with Hifiman. I'm sure the reactions would be a little different (less passionate).
  popcorn

Having owned the Rag for a while, if tomorrow my Rag would die and Schiit told me I'd have to wait 3 months to get it repair or get a full refund, with no hesitation, I would wait!
It is totally worth it. I'm not even sure I'd dig in the bank account and re-buy a Master-9 or anything while waiting for my Rag to come back...
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Marvey on November 01, 2014, 07:43:01 PM
Things would probably have been a little different if it wasn't for schiit.
Everyone re-read the first post and replace Schiit with Audio-gd and Audeze with Hifiman. I'm sure the reactions would be a little different (less passionate).

LOL, you kidding? If it were AGD or HFM, we would still have suggested to him to cancel his order and buy something else. Probably even passionately more so.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: schiit on November 01, 2014, 08:03:19 PM
Yes, if I unnecessarily inflamed this thread, my apologies. I'd much rather end up friends, even if we don't agree (ask Anax what he thinks about my taste in cars, for example).

However, one of the reasons I do take time to respond to threads like this is that, well, you don't know how much pain and suffering it is, for how many years, when someone reads the various facts/assumptions about our gear after a quick Google search and makes a snap judgement about it. It affects support, sales, and service for years to come.

We try very hard to be impartial in our product descriptions, declarations, etc...and we try very, very hard to deliver a quality product that will last. If we didn't, we'd be sunk. If we didn't, the warning signs would already be there--higher than average return rate, swelling service hours, multiple people dedicated to service, etc. But they aren't.

And yeah, sure, we've screwed up, but now that we (usually) don't talk about products before they launch, any last-minute glitches can be addressed before launch, with no time pressure to meet an artificial deadline.

And now, back to working on some new stuff...
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: arnaud on November 01, 2014, 09:36:31 PM
t "
Go ahead, give me negative karma. 
It's going up, not down, and there's nothing you can do about it!
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Byrnie on November 01, 2014, 11:01:29 PM
Yes, I noticed that too. But I'd rather let people have their say and let things naturally calm down. Unnecessarily locking down or deleting posts isn't the answer. We've had huge arguments about really stupid stuff like hamburgers before, and everyone was still friends afterwards. I hope this is still the case.
Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting any moderation but maybe for future posts to be a little less confrontational/judgemental.  Just my .02
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Maxvla on November 01, 2014, 11:03:51 PM
That responsibility falls on the OP as well.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Byrnie on November 01, 2014, 11:43:19 PM
Yes, if I unnecessarily inflamed this thread, my apologies. I'd much rather end up friends, even if we don't agree (ask Anax what he thinks about my taste in cars, for example).

However, one of the reasons I do take time to respond to threads like this is that, well, you don't know how much pain and suffering it is, for how many years, when someone reads the various facts/assumptions about our gear after a quick Google search and makes a snap judgement about it. It affects support, sales, and service for years to come.

We try very hard to be impartial in our product descriptions, declarations, etc...and we try very, very hard to deliver a quality product that will last. If we didn't, we'd be sunk. If we didn't, the warning signs would already be there--higher than average return rate, swelling service hours, multiple people dedicated to service, etc. But they aren't.

And yeah, sure, we've screwed up, but now that we (usually) don't talk about products before they launch, any last-minute glitches can be addressed before launch, with no time pressure to meet an artificial deadline.

And now, back to working on some new stuff...

I think it was a collection of posts and I understand why you responded too.

LOL, you kidding? If it were AGD or HFM, we would still have suggested to him to cancel his order and buy something else. Probably even passionately more so.

Agreed and that's why I really enjoy this forum.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Elysian on November 02, 2014, 03:46:13 AM
However, one of the reasons I do take time to respond to threads like this is that, well, you don't know how much pain and suffering it is, for how many years, when someone reads the various facts/assumptions about our gear after a quick Google search and makes a snap judgement about it. It affects support, sales, and service for years to come.

Huge, huge emphasis on this as someone who works in marketing and product. A single post on a no-name forum that floats to the top over time due to SEO can cause headaches for eons.

Speaking as someone who lives and breathes marketing 24/7, your company's marketing and community savvy impresses me as much as the gear, and I mean that in the most positive way possible.
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: Anaxilus on November 02, 2014, 06:01:42 AM
ask Anax what he thinks about my taste in cars, for example

Your taste in women is far better.  I think she was "Made in the USA" no?
Title: Re: Re-thinking about my Ragnarok order....
Post by: schiit on November 02, 2014, 04:05:44 PM
Your taste in women is far better.  I think she was "Made in the USA" no?

Yep, though from what I understand, assembled from 75% Maltese parts!