CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Speakers => Topic started by: tomscy2000 on August 18, 2014, 04:44:43 PM
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So, for the last couple of hi-fi shows that I've been attending, I've been listening attentively to high-end speaker setups to see what the fuss is all about. This past weekend, I managed to listen to the Avalon Tesseract driven by a PASS Labs stack, as well as the Magico Q7 with a dCS Vivaldi source (forgot what it was driven by), and I came away enjoying lower priced setups such as the KEF Reference 5 and the Tannoy Canterbury GR with ST200 supertweeters running off an Esoteric stack. Also heard a Sonus Faber Aida running off a McIntosh stack, but I was too tired to listen carefully.
From my experience, flagship setups all seem tuned for old people that think they still have good hearing. They're all too crispy and strident at the top end for an enjoyable listening experience. It's possible that because it's a show, they're driving them to loud volumes that most people wouldn't necessarily listen at, but it's quite irritating. Yes, they all sound good, and the flagship models seem to best exude size of sound best, but I came away more involved musically from listening to the KEF and Tannoy. Something about point source speakers speaks to me, especially with regard to the imaging. I'm still especially enamoured with the Tannoy, whose smooth, slightly laid-back top end just seems enjoyable to listen to. It's something that I can envision coming home to, rather than the banshee screeching of TOTL setups.
I do recognize that, on some level, the TOTL speakers are better. But they don't feel better. And I can't be sure whether or not I'm just not listening to them "correctly" or not. For example, while the Magico was authoritative and effortless throughout, I couldn't help but feel that its imaging somehow felt flat. I mean, the setup they're running costs half a million, and the imaging can somehow feel flat? I don't get it.
The Tesseract managed to sound a little nicer than the Magico, if only because I was in a larger-sized room and it projected its power well. It's also one of the coolest-looking speakers around.
Anyway, I don't know whether I'm evaluating these speakers "wrong" or what. But I do end up liking "lower-end" setups more than TOTL every single time.
Pictures:
(http://i.imgur.com/4gvBJfcl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/4gvBJfc)
The "lowly" Tannoy Stirling GR and ST200 --- really enjoyable in a small room.
(http://i.imgur.com/eJo42Hjl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/eJo42Hj)
The KEF Reference 5 --- pretty solid performance from top to bottom, great smooth high end, but still detailed.
(http://i.imgur.com/qq3t4ddl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/qq3t4dd)
Magico Q7 and dCS Vivaldi --- thought angels were going to sing into my ear; I thought wrong.
(http://i.imgur.com/kRqlPZkl.jpg) (http://imgur.com/kRqlPZk)
Avalon Tesseract --- looks uber cool in person.
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I'd like to hear some opinions on this as well, since the only experience I have with speakers is the low-end stuff. I'll be attending the NY Audio Show next month and would like to get some tips.
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Same here. I'll be jumping into speakers in a year or two after some house remodeling. I recall a few years ago, I was auditioning a few setups at my local Definitive Audio and Magnolia and despite what the sales guy's persuasion for the higher price sets, my ears were never set on the highest price set. I know that price bias comes into play as I'm not one to spend the extra coin for 1-4% perceived gain.
When the transition from headphones to speakers finally comes, I know there will be some major adjustments due to the cluster of attributes that are unique between them, and to what I'm currently accustom to. And unlike headphones/iem/ciem, I can't afford to cycle through this and that to find one that sounds heavenly for all genres and their respective tracks.
I don't know if it's heresy here, but is the book, "Introduction Guide to High-Performance Audio Systems" by Robert Harley a good reference source?
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Play Massive Attack's "Angel"? When the music does not give you the right feeling, then p:8
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I'm not surprised. As with most things in this hobby, "you get what you pay for" is and has pretty much always been 100% false. Magico is a total hype machine brand. The mags just LOVE to plaster the latest Magico (there's seemingly a new model every month) all over their covers. THE WORLD'S BEST??? MAGICO DOES IT AGAIN!!! Yada yada yada. Ignore.
Avalon used to be the darling of everybody years and years ago, but they kind of fell off the map for awhile. You can only review the Eidolon so many times I guess.
Some speakers are just not going to work for you, it doesn't matter what they cost or how gushing the reviews are. There's nothing wrong with you, chances are much more likely that there's something wrong with the speakers. Show conditions are also of course never ideal. I'm a big fan of Daedalus, but they've often struggled in show conditions and don't sound as good as I know they can. Part of the issue is that Lou usually wants to bring his flagships along... and his subwoofers, and he ends up with bass overload because of room mode problems.
Of the megabuck brands that I've had a chance to experience, I've generally enjoyed listening to Rockports, Tidals, NOLAs, Ventures, and in the right setup, Raidhos and Estelons. I look at them all as sort of interesting curiosities though, I don't ever have any expectation of dropping $30K+ on these things.
About the highest I could see going is one of the pairs of Eggleston Andra IIIs that's often on Audiogon in the $11K range. The Andra is pretty much the opposite of an "old person's speaker." It loves to rock and roll.
(http://avplaza.co.kr/images/userdif/photo/1(1019155053).jpg)
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I'm going to go against the grain and say that most TOTL speakers are utter shit.
I've been to many a high end show and have been disappointed time and time again by these high end shenanigans.
"Oh LFF, you're so mean! You know those speakers aren't set up in ideal conditions!"
Yes, that is true, but I have also had the displeasure of listening to many a high-end set-up in properly treated rooms at nice homes. They still sound like shit.
Magico is probably some of the worst speakers I have ever heard, along with MBL. It seems that the only people who can afford them are rich 50 and 60 year olds who no longer hear anything past 9kHz. Why? Because these speakers are so damn bright!
Another thing that pisses me off is when they refuse to play your music. You can only listen to their authorized demos of Norah Jones, Patricia Barber, Diana Krall, or some random craptastic recording of a harp or guitar being plucked.
Honestly, one of the best speakers I ever heard was at a San Francisco headphone meet. I forgot whose speaker that was or who made it but DAMN...it sounded extremely impressive. Low rating in the looks department but the sound was truly glorious. It's nice to see people who care more about sound quality than dollar signs.
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If I went with high-end speakers, I think I'd be looking at Green Mountain Audio.
http://greenmountainaudio.com
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Glad to see that I'm not the only one who things these TOTL speakers have jarring treble responses.
BTW, this show is in Taipei, and according to most of the audio critics at the usual suspects, the Taiwanese are customarily great at room treatment, so apparently I'm hearing good setups. However, at all Asian shows, people like to play audiophile test CDs, and their idea of a demonstration CD is one with a built in A-weighted curve, ruining the inherent transparency of most systems anyway.
For example, Usher speakers, a local brand that is usually known by foreign press for bang-for-buck products, likes to use these tracks with a heavy emphasis on the Chinese flute and muddy drums. The range of the Chinese flute basically overpowers anything else on the track, and the muddy drums don't do any transducers any favors, so it's no wonder critics like to say that Usher speakers aren't super articulate. Another hilarious thing that I saw at the show was Focal playing 'Transformers 3' through the Utopia Scala V2. I didn't even bother listening.
Focal's Aria line with the flax cones seem to have pretty good performance for the price, though, even if they're also tuned too bright.
The KEF Reference 5 was about as bright as I thought was reasonable, so I ended up enjoying them. I think I have a thing for coaxial speakers, as I've liked every single Tannoy speaker I've come across. They're not super detailed, but they're just all nice to listen to. I do also like the balance of Harbeths, but find their low end too spongy and slow.
Realistically, I'm looking at a company that is local to Taiwan. They originated machining speaker enclosures for Fostex and other companies, but are now branching out to developing kits and assembled units of single unit full-range designs. They're made to be affordable, but pretty high in quality, as they manufacture everything in-house, but a nice entry-level bookshelf setup with good Tangband drivers would probably cost me $600 total.
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These were the only speakers to truly impress me at T.H.E. Show this past year.
http://www.fritzspeakers.com/
The guy who makes them is a genuinely nice guy and he actually cares about the music. No crappy Diana Krall or Patricia Barber in his room. The sound was punchy, dynamic, and very natural. They really were the best I heard there those days.
Moreover, he wasn't pushing the volume to 11. I think the volume setting was at 2. That's one way how you can really appreciate a good speaker...does it sound equally as good at low volumes as it does at high volumes. In Fritz's case...YES.
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I dunno, my younger friends had a good experience with Magico's at our local(Singapore) showroom, perhaps the room was setup very nicely. Tomscy's experience does resonate with mine in a huge number of showrooms though, where they tend to play slow strings to complement the speakers and some setups come out too bright. Some of them start to fall apart with the rock tracks I put in(along with disapproving faces of the salesman at me).
Actually my most no BS experience came up from a Harbeth room/store where the setup looked a lot like a home one and still came up fantastic sounding albeit with the typical colouration you get from their sound signature but still no BS.
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Magico is probably some of the worst speakers I have ever heard, along with MBL. It seems that the only people who can afford them are rich 50 and 60 year olds who no longer hear anything past 9kHz. Why? Because these speakers are so damn bright!
The original Magico monitors that used the birch ply cabinets were just awful. The tweeter was completely in your face and sounded utterly disjointed from the bass driver, and yet every pro reviewer claimed to have multiple eargasms while listening to them, and basically proclaimed Alon Wolf to be a god. Uh huh.
Some of the new ones are marginally less bad, but that's as far as I can go. I don't even bother attempting to visit MBL rooms. Every time it's some awful music being blasted at about 130dB. Who honestly enjoys that?
Totally agreed on Fritz, he's the man. The recipe is pretty simple, take any two high-end commercial drivers of your choice, stick em in a nice box with a straightforward x-over, done. Considering the retail cost of those drivers, you wouldn't really save that much money if you built them yourself.
I'd throw Klaus and Odyssey in that category as well. Great stuff at very low cost, and a very cool guy.
(http://www.stereomojo.com/Show%20Reports/images/DSC_0078.jpg)
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Magico is crap. In three years, haven't heard a decent system from them yet. I've told certain upstream manufacturers to stop using them for shows.
Nola isn't bad, but I've been underwhelmed by them tbh considering all the praise.
Venture speakers off the Phasure DAC were the only high end rig I've really enjoyed out of all the high end stuff so far including Yg and some other six figure speakers. The new Sony's were decent but not quite there for me when you look at the price.
For the $$, Fritz does nice work and he's a great guy. Shared a ride to the airport in Denver with him. Recommended. Honestly, compared to about 90% of the top end stuff I've heard, I'd just take a pair of Vanatoos over them.
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I went to 2-3 audio shows per yer for the last four years and critically listen to pretty much every exhibit with my own test tracks. By now I supposedly have heard it all.
The all time best for me was Vivid Audio G3 Giya which I heard in two different rooms one year apart and last time it was driven by some crappy all in one CD/Tuner/Amp boombox looking thing, still sounded very impressive.
That same day I also heard its bigger sibling Giya G1 in the same room on the same spot where G3 sounded so good the other year and it sounded very unbalanced. Judging by the looks they supposed to sound similar especially when room is big enough but that wasn't the case, so I am a little puzzled.
Another good one is our own Acoustic Zen "Crescendo" which consistently sounds better then most if not all speakers at any show I ever visited.
Did like a few others like the second from TOTL KingSound and Sanders but one isn't a full range while the other was too beamy and I never was allowed to hear my own content, still from what I could hear from two shows it could be a pretty good speaker.
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Ps. I never pay attention to anything that is not full range. For me it's either all or nothing.
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I liked the lowly LS50 from KEF quite a bit. Their other stuff was quite good too. Other stuff was mostly OK, meh, or simply horrible (THE Sho). Few exceptions like the unaffordable Sonys and stuff. I also learned that quite a few folks equalize the crap out of their setups. However, in some cases that only worked to some extent in some small sweet spot. Move a few seats away (like one) & shit would hit the fan.
Heard the Magico, and did not like what I heard at all... But they were playing some very weird shit so who knows. Will put more attention to Fritz next time.
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I've been running the Dayton BR-1 speakers for about 6 years now. Really love them for the $150 I paid: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-br-1-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-monitor-speaker-kit-pair--300-640 (http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-br-1-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-monitor-speaker-kit-pair--300-640)
I've always wanted to do the upgraded crossover mod, but I don't really know much about this sort of stuff: http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=pe_br1.html (http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=pe_br1.html)
Haven't ever really had a huge itch to upgrade the speakers. Can't say that about headphones.
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I checked out all the Sony staff after someone I respect rated them highly. AR1 has decent FR but is soulless, or lifeless, whatever term you prefer and when demoed in a regular room sounds like most regular speakers maybe just a little bit more resolving then others but really, nothing special and I personally would never buy it. AR2 is worse while AR3 I called it a triple tweeter one (SS-NA2ES) is simply a joke IMO.
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Ultrabike don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion on Sony's you heard but most likely it was in their signature setup: huge, well treated room coupled with the best electronics and only demoed with either their own or kimber's double dsd. Then remember how close to the speakers you were seating, their sweet spot was always only about 6 feet away from the cones. Basically when all these conditions are met only total junk playing absolute garbage won't sound decent. Not saying they are junk but definitely not worth all the rumble created by the press IMO.
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Are studio monitors just a bad idea for small living rooms / bedrooms? I just listened to some Genelecs that were 1k - 1.2k USD, and they sounded really great, plus they're puny and self-powered.
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The problem with modern "HiEnd" speakers in my humble opinion is the treble frequency response.
Older top of the range speakers are more involving and certainly more musical to my ears.
I have a pair of B&W 801 Matrix S3's (which i bought second hand) and have yet to find something more pleasing for my taste... (i have grown accustomed to them you see...).
Not that i have not been impressed by many new models, and especially after visiting the HiEnd show in Munich earlier this year, but i still feel that i would not part with the amount they ask for the top TAD model although i found it superb... and by some aspects the best in the show...
Some of the big models cost so much and they do not perform very well... there were too many of them i am afraid and it didn't have to do with the room acoustics...
The big Magico that cost as much as a small house (and you need to place it in a room of the size of a small house...) needed two humongous sub-woofers to perform in a small room? please :)p8...
My advice for someone that is going to start out on a good pair of speakers is to seek out a well acclaimed model of the past... some great models can be found in excellent condition for cheap, and the better amp combinations to match, have already been explored, although many times they are also vintage but they can be attained for cheap.
New hiend speakers are way too expensive... not to mention the acute treble problem...
At the end though, speaker evaluation is a personal preference thing... if you are a keen live music goer, and by live i mean live symphonic orchestra listener... you will choose something different than someone who attends live rock shows... there is of course nothing wrong with either... it is just a matter of personal preference and taste.
I have found some speakers absolute crap, while others have liked them a lot.
Nobody found my 801's crap... especially rock guys after i crank up the volume... :)p13
PS. i usually listen to classical and jazz...
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I wish that there were audio shows, hi-end or not, in my home town. They may happen in Delhi, Mumbai, etc, but not here. We have had a couple of local-forum-organised hifi meets, with dealers giving demos. At the last one, I found more problem with bass thumping than with treble shrieking. However, I am a slightly-oldie who's hearing now starts to tail off at 8K :)p18. A notable exception at a recent meet was the mentioned LS50: it was the most balanced dealer-demoed sound of the day.
We have seen Genelec, at a previous meet, and I was completely smitten. This was one of the models with built-in software-controlled room-correction DSP. The sound was, to me, pretty-much perfect. We also saw the tiny "PC speakers" and, really, nothing that small has any right to sound to sound that good --- but does anything that small have a right to cost that much?
I have heard MBL, both at a meet and in a house. The in-a-house experience I enjoyed very much. The things cost as much as my car did. New.
Are studio monitors just a bad idea for small living rooms / bedrooms? I just listened to some Genelecs that were 1k - 1.2k USD, and they sounded really great, plus they're puny and self-powered.
Obviously from what I just said: I don't think they are a bad idea at all. I do most of my listening, these days, at the desk, and it is an ambition to replace my M-Audio AV-40s (great value for money!) with decent active studio monitors. Genelec and Adam are on my possibles list as well as some lower-end stuff and, of course, some in-my-dreams stuff (Geithain RL906).
Each to their own, of course. Personal preference is king, and a flat frequency response will not please either those who want booming bass or those who think that shrieking treble is "detail." Of course, without good room treatment, that FS is not going to stay flat anyway.
I do wonder why people demo hifi with such crap music, beit dismal pop or "audiophile" jazz. Of course, when we audition for ourselves we must listen with the music we know love --- and are going to play at home. But I do believe that nothing tests or shows off a system like classical orchestral music. Nothing has the dynamic or tonal range, nothing has such a complex soundstage. Of course, that's a bit of a problem for those that don't actually like it!
The piratical view (eyes, perhaps, not caught in the glare of the headlights) make me think that the shows I envy others the chance of attending might not actually be so desirable, and might give me more headache than pleasure/interest. 130dB! No chance to hear one's own music! Oh dear no, not if they actually want my money (which I haven't got, but they don't know that :)p4 )
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Well, there are two components in my system that I can't see ever going away - the Sjostrom QRV-08 headamp and the KEF LS50 speakers. Just about everyone has been rabidly spewing out 5 star reviews about these speakers and this is one the rare cases where it might be justified.
As for studio monitors - be careful. They can have a signature that causes hearing fatigue. Also some monitors have a bad tendency to sound good only when playing really loud.
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Don't all TOTL speakers measure superbly via KLIPPEL and other measuring metrics? If so, why do they end up so strident? Is it the music they're playing? I want to hear some of these systems play tracks that don't have limiting compression to the nines, and play at reasonable ~75 dB volumes.
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Are studio monitors just a bad idea for small living rooms / bedrooms? I just listened to some Genelecs that were 1k - 1.2k USD, and they sounded really great, plus they're puny and self-powered.
Not necessarily. Some of them are designed to be absolutely merciless in order to help recording engineers hunt for flaws and so are either painful or just boring as hell to actually listen to, but not all of them are like that. The Neumanns and Event Opals are quite nice. Genelecs can be on the bright side IME, but the higher-end ones are pretty good.
The price of the Opals can get you some pretty superb traditional speakers though, so unless you absolutely do not want a separate amp for some reason, I think they stop making sense once you reach a certain price point.
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If I ever wanted to get serious with a speaker setup, I'd get a pair of ATC near/mid-field active monitors, a decent DAC/preamp/monitor-controller, some Mogamis, a decent bespoke meter-bridge/desk (to route all cabling cos I hate clutter) and call it a day. The few production/mastering/mixing studios I've visited seriously shat all over most of the ultra-fi audiophile showrooms I've been to.
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I checked out all the Sony staff after someone I respect rated them highly. AR1 has decent FR but is soulless, or lifeless,
Completely agree.
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I don't know if it's heresy here, but is the book, "Introduction Guide to High-Performance Audio Systems" by Robert Harley a good reference source?
Personally I wouldn't trust Harley's word on any technical matter. I hear Collombs' "High Performance Loudspeakers" is better. Or go for real changstar heresy and read Toole's "Sound Reproduction" - I rather liked it.
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Don't all TOTL speakers measure superbly via KLIPPEL and other measuring metrics? If so, why do they end up so strident? Is it the music they're playing? I want to hear some of these systems play tracks that don't have limiting compression to the nines, and play at reasonable ~75 dB volumes.
Not really. On Klippel multitone tests you often see something on the order of 10% distortion (which is why almost no one publishes those). The single-tone tests used for THD and the two-tone tests used for IMD don't tell the whole story.
Then you have dispersion issues coupled with room reflections which muddle up the soundstage, induce frequency irregularities through comb filtering and overload the high-mids and highs along with the crapshoot of room modes below 300hz.
Also there's the effect of the cabinet itself.
And the drivers - prior to KEF's last couple of generations of coaxials you'd see some nasty peaks in the 5-10khz area with those.
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Well, there are two components in my system that I can't see ever going away - the Sjostrom QRV-08 headamp and the KEF LS50 speakers. Just about everyone has been rabidly spewing out 5 star reviews about these speakers and this is one the rare cases where it might be justified.
and they look just amazing. Guaranteed to beat almost everything in sighted testing ...and that's before the music even starts!
Nice to hear you are so happy with them. They could well be on my dream list, but are just too big for my cramped listening space, as well as being a but too expensive.
As for studio monitors - be careful. They can have a signature that causes hearing fatigue. Also some monitors have a bad tendency to sound good only when playing really loud.
Difficult. Especially where extended audition/trial is just not possible
If I ever wanted to get serious with a speaker setup, I'd get a pair of ATC near/mid-field active monitors, a decent DAC/preamp/monitor-controller, some Mogamis, a decent bespoke meter-bridge/desk (to route all cabling cos I hate clutter) and call it a day. The few production/mastering/mixing studios I've visited seriously shat all over most of the ultra-fi audiophile showrooms I've been to.
Yes, I think I could live with that too. The best sound I ever heard was in a TV studio --- and it was just background music, for guys setting up the scenery, coming from just one speaker. Mind you, the acoustics probably had as much to do with it as the source of the sound, and I would guess that those studios you visited were very well treated?
Many of the Gearslutz people recommend to not even think about the speaker budget until the treatment budget is spent. Something I'd love to do, if I ever have a listening room. For some reason it is anathema to some audiophiles who don't believe in anything other than boxes, cables and ears.
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Many of the Gearslutz people recommend to not even think about the speaker budget until the treatment budget is spent. Something I'd love to do, if I ever have a listening room. For some reason it is anathema to some audiophiles who don't believe in anything other than boxes, cables and ears.
I don't know that I'd go that far, but anybody looking to spend over $1500/pr on speakers should seriously consider at least some basic treatment options, and measure their space to get an idea of where they are starting from. Uber high-end gear in a room full of slap and flutter echo and bass modes is a giant bag of fail.
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Yes, I think I could live with that too. The best sound I ever heard was in a TV studio --- and it was just background music, for guys setting up the scenery, coming from just one speaker. Mind you, the acoustics probably had as much to do with it as the source of the sound, and I would guess that those studios you visited were very well treated?
The higher-end ones I went to were obviously extremely well treated - floating floors, fully-ducted, ultra-quiet air-conditioning, etc. Visited this control room (http://www.yellowboxstudios.com/index.html) here in SIngapore a couple of months ago (a friend works in local TV, so I just tagged along on a weekend because we were heading somewhere else after that). Stunning place. Then there was this mixing/mastering studio (http://www.wiredmasters.co.uk/studio-1.html) where an acquaintance worked at back when I lived in England. Probably the best listening experience I've had in my life. Those PMCs were the mutts nuts!! A few other big studios, but I don't have links.
Even the home-based rigs I've experienced were very good though. One guy does mixing/mastering for TV ads, while a couple of other friends produce electronic music. The ATC near-field thing I mentioned is based on what I experienced at one of these places. ATC SCM25 Pros driven from a Grace M905 controller. Straight, honest sounds. The room was pretty bare though - not too large, no windows, some sort of acoutic softboards (no idea what the technical term is) on the walls and ceiling, but that was it. I'm sure the dude knows his stuff, judging from the sound quality (and his portfolio). Funny, the dude mentioned his setup being a bit unforgiving, so I expected an unmusical Yamaha NS-10 inspired sound, but what I heard was the opposite. It didn't flatter an overcompressed kick-drum or distorted bassline, but it didn't tire me out either. All the detail was there, but it wasn't shoved in my face. Oh, and the mids were gorgeous. For "audiophile" listening, all I'd add would probably be a "saturation stage" of some kind (you know, like the Silk function they have on Rupert Neve mixers or mic-pres), just to make it a bit more velvety, but that would be it. I'd be a happy camper many times over.
I doubt I'll ever go all-out with a speaker rig, though. Just too many variables to consider, room acoustics being the most daunting for a knob like myself. Plus I generally don't have the space since I live in a small studio apartment. Good to have a dream, I suppose. =P
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Those studios look great. Knobs! Buttons! Sliders! p:3 All wonderful stuff. I envy those who even know where to start with all that stuff.
Good to have a dream, I suppose. =P
Here's some dream-powering material: Gearslutz, High-end Nearfield Test (http://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/851143-high-end-nearfield-test.html). It's a long, long thread though!
From the little I have heard so far of active monitors, I am thinking that it is my kind of sound. Very clean, delivering the music as it is. The earlier warning about the possibility of fatigue from very unforgiving monitors is noted, though.
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I tried a whole bunch of studio monitors recently and found them to be lacking in bass. You may want to consider a small sub to pair with them YMMV.
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I tried a whole bunch of studio monitors recently and found them to be lacking in bass. You may want to consider a small sub to pair with them YMMV.
That's pretty much inevitable, they have to follow the same laws of physics as passive two-way monitors. If you're going to run a powered studio/sub setup, you'll need to make sure that whatever preamp you're using can run its balanced and single ended outputs at the same time.
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I tried a whole bunch of studio monitors recently and found them to be lacking in bass. You may want to consider a small sub to pair with them YMMV.
Any more or less than "bookshelves" of the same size from the hifi world? I think that, as DaveBSC says, that's just physics.
What size, anyway? They do not all have 4- or 5-inch woofers --- although mine probably will: both because of cost and the fact that my listening space (otherwise known as cupboard) can't cope with much bass. The do come big, biig, and biiiig too :boom: :boom:
With the tinies, though, yes, a sub-woofer would be nice, especially if bass guitar and pipe-organ music is on the menu. I believe I can live with out, having had 4-inch-woofer speakers for the past two or three years.
For those with hifi kit to connect, it is probably better to avoid the speakers with only balanced input. I was taking balanced out from my pc audio interface. Now I am taking unbalanced from a pre-amp. One can convert, both properly and with just a converter cable.
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What size, anyway? They do not all have 4- or 5-inch woofers --- although mine probably will: both because of cost and the fact that my listening space (otherwise known as cupboard) can't cope with much bass. The do come big, biig, and biiiig too :boom: :boom:
For those with hifi kit to connect, it is probably better to avoid the speakers with only balanced input. I was taking balanced out from my pc audio interface. Now I am taking unbalanced from a pre-amp. One can convert, both properly and with just a converter cable.
I had Dynaudio studio monitors with 8" woofers for a little while. Same issue, there wasn't a whole lot going on below 45Hz or so. If you want anything below that you really need a sub, although some of the PMC monitors may be able to dig deeper thanks to their transmission line setups. A regular box with a hole in it just isn't going to go that low though, even with an 8" woofer. The cabinets just aren't big enough.
The 10" 3-way studio monitors can hit down into the 30Hz range, but those are big boxes and they tend to cost quite a bit of cash. The Genelecs for example are over $10K for the pair.
The other issue you'll run into with higher-end studio monitors is that they tend to be balanced only, usually XLR and TRS, or a single combo jack. The manufacturers don't expect them to be used with single-ended "hifi" applications, so the RCA jacks are left out. That's why a balanced pre is a good idea.
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@DaveBSC
You mentioned Event Opals in a prior post. Don't those go low enough? I've heard them and they seemed to go down quite low for near-fields. Obviously not down to the low 20Hz range, but I'd guess somewhere around 35Hz or so, based on what I heard with music I was familiar with. Not quite subwoofer level, but lower than most 2-way stand/desk-mount offerings.
Beyond the Opals, I think a few 3-ways should be able to get to the 35Hz range (on paper, at least). Though going below that is probably a tough ask (not heard the Genelecs you mentioned). Even the smaller PMCs bottom-out at about 35Hz. Lower than that, the only one I can think of that's still meter-bridge/desktop compatible (only just) and does it cleanly enough would be the Unity Audio Boulder (in-built amplification by Esoteric Audio Research, a brand some pirates/head-fiers should be familiar with), though you're looking at $5K+ minimum by now.
If you don't want dual subs and all the complications they bring, then you'll probably have to go bigger (in cost, speaker size, and room considerations). The bigger PMCs and Geithains (maybe Barefoots) can probably do 20Hz.
Myself, taking my room into consideration, I think I could live with what the Opals bring. Would still dream of ATCs and PMCs, but reality would never be so kind.
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I had Dynaudio studio monitors with 8" woofers for a little while. Same issue, there wasn't a whole lot going on below 45Hz or so. If you want anything below that you really need a sub, although some of the PMC monitors may be able to dig deeper thanks to their transmission line setups. A regular box with a hole in it just isn't going to go that low though, even with an 8" woofer. The cabinets just aren't big enough.
The 10" 3-way studio monitors can hit down into the 30Hz range, but those are big boxes and they tend to cost quite a bit of cash. The Genelecs for example are over $10K for the pair.
The other issue you'll run into with higher-end studio monitors is that they tend to be balanced only, usually XLR and TRS, or a single combo jack. The manufacturers don't expect them to be used with single-ended "hifi" applications, so the RCA jacks are left out. That's why a balanced pre is a good idea.
Oh yes, I agree that it would be --- but, in my case, it is not what I have got.
The smaller models from some companies are pretty-much sold as multi-medi speakers, and may have RCA connectors. But probably most/all will be too small for that bass.
If and when (a headphone upgrade is supposed to come first) I get there, then I'll face the bal/unbal problem. It isn't going to happen, for me, before 2015 at the earliest.
Here's something I came across on the net earlier today: Abacus C-Box (http://www.abacus-electronics.com/122-1-C-Box.html). Albeit active, it looks aimed at a more domestic market, and at a very reasonable price. It seems to "go lower" than its size suggests it should, too. Any thoughts?
Oh... maybe this is all getting a bit too specific about ejaculating studio/active monitors...
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Here's something I came across on the net earlier today: Abacus C-Box (http://www.abacus-electronics.com/122-1-C-Box.html). Albeit active, it looks aimed at a more domestic market, and at a very reasonable price. It seems to "go lower" than its size suggests it should, too. Any thoughts?
I'm pretty much a speaker noob, but 1.6L cab and 2.2kg kerb weight = 35Hz?? O_O
Damn. I must be behind the times.
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Event Opal
Guessing active crossover + PEQ boost + maybe servo feedback.
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@DaveBSC
You mentioned Event Opals in a prior post. Don't those go low enough? I've heard them and they seemed to go down quite low for near-fields. Obviously not down to the low 20Hz range, but I'd guess somewhere around 35Hz or so, based on what I heard with music I was familiar with. Not quite subwoofer level, but lower than most 2-way stand/desk-mount offerings.
Here's the chart from Event. They list 35Hz in the spec sheet, but they don't quote a +/- qualifier. Here you can see why not. You're not gonna get that out of a 7" driver in a fairly standard enclosure. The chart annoyingly doesn't have a precise point at 40Hz, but it appears at a glance that the -3dB point is in the high 40Hz range, which is how most other manufacturers would rate their FR. 35Hz has gotta be -15dB or more, response is falling off a cliff at that point.
(http://www.eventelectronics.com/images/opal-freq-response-large.gif)
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Here's something I came across on the net earlier today: Abacus C-Box (http://www.abacus-electronics.com/122-1-C-Box.html). Albeit active, it looks aimed at a more domestic market, and at a very reasonable price. It seems to "go lower" than its size suggests it should, too. Any thoughts?
I'm pretty much a speaker noob, but 1.6L cab and 2.2kg kerb weight = 35Hz?? O_O
Damn. I must be behind the times.
I'm a headphone noob!
I'ma also a complete newbie to speaker measurements. Up to this point in my moderately long life I have simply listened to the things. But it does seem odd to me too.
What little I can see on the net, though, is mostly positive, but with reservations, which, paraphrasing from memory are approximately stuff like, the low is there but not accurate and not good at high volumes.
Let's remember: these C-Box things are just under 500 euros inc German taxes.
Sadly, that is still five times my, hey, whatever, lets buy it and try it budget.
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Guys,
your views on the NHT Towers?
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Guys,
your views on the NHT Towers?
Eh. Years ago speakers like the 3.3 were pretty decent, but I think the world has largely passed NHT by. You'll get much better value from a company like Ascend or Philharmonic.