CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on December 06, 2011, 05:25:00 AM

Title: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Marvey on December 06, 2011, 05:25:00 AM
Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots. This is a very nice entry level headphone.  A broad ridge at 4kHz, but resonances in this area tend to be more benign than those at say 8kHz. FR has a nice appearance and is neutral. Not the smoothest, but at $150 what do you expect?
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: rhythmdevils on December 06, 2011, 06:10:42 AM
That matches what I hear pretty well.  They're actually one of the only closed headphones I've ever liked.  I like them better than the Denons and people on HF have always thought I was bat crazy for that.  I don't think they're amazing, they seem to have a bit of a U shaped response and aren't the last word in resolution, but they sound really smooth to me. 
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: jerg on November 02, 2012, 07:40:05 PM
Ha! I was digging up some old Electri-Q parametric EQ configs I made long ago, and found my "ultimate M50 EQ settings", which I made 100% from by-ear perceived FR through some careful sinewave sweep listening and notes-taking. Turns out it correlates quite well, almost mirroring, the CSD measurements here, at least in terms of pattern.

(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/712589/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL)
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: donunus on June 02, 2013, 11:45:00 AM
I just heard the LE version and was really impressed. Much better than my old m50. I am buying a pair for sure. Anyone with an LE version here that can say if it is better than the standard m50 or is this the improvement that was made over time with these cans?
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Anaxilus. on June 02, 2013, 12:31:52 PM
Likely running revision as the varying impressions started their divergence long before the LEs came out.  My old M50s had a slight upper mid suckout that affected female vocals and string tonality, but the rest of the mids were fine.  Nothing like the exaggerated V-shape earlier users complained about.  I'll have to remember to ask them next time I see them at CES.  They actually came out w/ a decent IEM that reminded me of the M50 at a decent price but it was only for sale oversees.  I'd have to dig up the model number from a pic I took.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Solderdude on June 02, 2013, 05:58:42 PM
The measurement I took of my (old type) ATH-M50 superimposed on Purrin's plot

(http://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/m50fr.jpg?w=799)

Hearing these I could not understand why so many people liked them and thought they sounded pretty 'flat' and accurate as this very old version is nothing like that.
It sounds the way the plot shows.
Humongous (fat) bass with an 'overly warm' signature with the upper mids (clarity) lacking a bit.

The later models have changed quite a bit from the 'old' version.

Earlier I made an attempt to combine plots of different sites to see if they measured similar
(http://i837.photobucket.com/albums/zz296/solderdude/allM50graphs.jpg) (http://s837.photobucket.com/user/solderdude/media/allM50graphs.jpg.html)
the green and thin blue line show a +5dB in the lows compared to other Tyll's plot


Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: donunus on June 03, 2013, 12:41:32 AM
I dont hear that 4-5khz peak on the anniversary edition by the way. It was a short listening session but I was playing music that I knew so I would have easily noticed it since that area of frequency anomalies usually bother me.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Deep Funk on June 03, 2013, 08:19:46 AM
How many versions of the M50 are there now?

When Forrest Gump compares life with a box of chocolates it sounds like a nice story. When it applies to the ATH M50 I lose my interest...
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: donunus on June 03, 2013, 08:46:57 AM
From research around the web I think it has been tweaked at least once just like hd600s and hd650s for example. Now I am still looking for evidence whether the latest version is as good as the LE because i would avoid the silver colored cans if I could. I really wish that the standard version sounds just as good and has the same soft pads as the LE.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Deep Funk on June 03, 2013, 02:37:47 PM
Did you open up your M50?
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Solderdude on June 03, 2013, 04:07:51 PM
Did you open up your M50?

I did.. and tried different pads, playing with the driver and damping schemes as well and played with EQ e.t.c.
To no avail...

Could improve it somewhat but not turn it into something I like.
a newer version may be a better base to start from.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: ultrabike on September 07, 2013, 06:41:50 AM
A friend from work loaned me these for the weekend. Pretty cool since I've wanted to check them out for quite some time.

Sound

I would say this particular ATH-M50 is sub-bass heavy and not very resolving (perhaps because of the sub-bass emphasis). There is a bit of upper bass emphasis as well. I didn't detect any obvious weirdness in the mids, but perhaps the sub-bass is masking some of that stuff.

The tremble is easy on the ears, and the presentation is not fatiguing at all. In fact, with the exception of the sub-bass emphasis, I feel this phone is neutralish. I can see why RD likes them. No ear shattering tremble mountains fo-sho.

To my ears these cans actually sort of sound similar to my toy HD202s (in stock form) but with a little more sub-bass, less lo-fi, and sort of smoother in the tremble (EDIT: smoother tremble is fairly obvious actually). The HD202 also feel, look, and are way cheaper (and that is an understatement). In the same price range there are the HD558 which I prefer, but those are open.

Comfort

These cans do exert pressure, but to me they are comfier than my HD202s. The cups are bigger and my ears manage to stay inside the cups (unlike the HD202s). Going by memory my DT990 seemed to punish my head more than these, but there was more ear room on those... Long listening sessions may or may not be problematic depending on head shape.

Presentation

This is a good quality headphone. The cups rotate and the headband is fairly sturdy and cushioned. The pads are also very nice. Cable is fairly long and seems like good quality. Definitively not cornflakes box freebie like.

Price

For $100 (used) to $160 one gets a good quality closed headphone. I do feel these have a similar sound signature as the HD202 which are quite a bit more affordable, just nowhere near the build quality.

EDIT: Actually the HD202 do seem to have an obvious wonky problem relative to the M50s ... probably the 8 to 10kHz null or the fact that the M50s cover my ears while the HD202 sit on my ears (i.e. the HD202 bypass more of my ears).

Overall

Very good performance, but these could do with a little less sub-bass.

Measurements

Frequency Response

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=46.0;attach=3860;image)

ATH-M50 vs stock HD202 (yellow)

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=46.0;attach=3870;image)

Other stuff attached below.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Anaxilus. on September 07, 2013, 06:54:47 AM
If u want I can do a bass mod on them and you can remeasure if u like.

Like RD, I too was was/am a M50 fan.  Got mine back in the day for $90 new.  The HFI580 was $120.  Those were my first three HF cans along w/ the Ultrasone Pro750.  Modded all of them quite a bit.  Got the 750 very neutral sounding but always stayed plastic sounding and always uncomfortable and always blue.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: ultrabike on September 07, 2013, 06:58:05 AM
Thanks mang. I'm uneasy about touching them since I'm not the owner. I was able to lower the bass on my HD202 by partially covering a mini port inside the cup...

For $90 these are pretty good. What did you do to mod them?

EDIT: Actually, the HD202 sounds obviously more wonky with some songs relative to the M50s. The HD202s null from 8-10 kHz might be part of the issue (EQing seems to help alleviate the problem, but it's hard to get the null out). The fact that the M50s cover my ears while the HD202s sit on them might also account for some of the perceived differences...

The cans are similar sounding, but the M50 is definitively a fair step up.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: ultrabike on September 07, 2013, 09:10:33 AM
LOL! I went ahead and removed the pads... Unlike HD202s the drivers are angled...

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5546/9692828850_3b20cd6b69.jpg)

Very interested about what Anax did to these.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: holland on September 07, 2013, 03:31:59 PM
How does one tell new version from old?  I have ATH-M50, and it's probably the old version I would guess as I was one of the early buyers.  I don't use them too frequently, the cups are small-ish and hurts my ears after a few hours.

To be honest, I prefer the M-Audio Q40 to them (with mad dog pads), even though it's rolled off at the top.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: ultrabike on September 07, 2013, 06:16:25 PM
Dunno how to tell them apart and if there are different versions actually. There is a thread at HF where two different measurements by Tyll are discussed, but he noted that his measurement process has changed:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/594542/ath-m50-vs-ath-m50s-le-impressions/45#post_8223072 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/594542/ath-m50-vs-ath-m50s-le-impressions/45#post_8223072)

Are your M50s bassy as well?

I think the cups of the M50 are large for an ear-pad type headphone, but small for a full-size.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: holland on September 07, 2013, 07:36:39 PM
Are your M50s bassy as well?

I think the cups of the M50 are large for an ear-pad type headphone, but small for a full-size.

Yes, they are bassy, but it's hard for me to say how bassy (from the charts above).  It's punchy, more bass than all of my headphones including the D2000.  It has lower bass resonance as well.  In a way it reminds me of a better Ultrasone, with better mids and highs, although less bassy than Ultrasone.  I hate Ultrasone, btw.  It's also got a bit of an artificial flavor to the highs, which is what bugged me the most after some time.  I think the plots above point to 4K, which is about what I think (from listening).

Your chart looks like what I am hearing, I don't have measuring equipment.

Edit: I took off the pads, they look like yours.  Mine has "0825" on a sticker as opposed to yours.  I wonder if this is some sort of serial number.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: ultrabike on September 07, 2013, 09:32:57 PM
My friend's M50s have "1301" on both cups. The orientation of the sticker is different. It could be that the sticker is a way to identify matched drivers.

The more I do measurements, the more I'm first hand convinced there is only so much they can tell us.

To test level of bass I tried "Like a Bomb" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KRe8duwpwk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KRe8duwpwk). This song has copious amounts of bass. It is tolerable and fun with my HD558, but I had to turn it way down with the M50s and the HD202s.

I tried a quite a few songs with the M50 and it reminded me a lot of the HD202. I did the comparo and things were similar... until I tried Kaoma's "Lambamor": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaJFe2KiZ0s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaJFe2KiZ0s). The rather compressed song seems to excite the HD202 in a way that it sounds way more hollow and artificial relative to the M50.

I don't have that much experience with the Ultrasones and Denons. Anax did a bass mod on both his Ultrasones and M50, but had issues getting rid of the artificial sound. I also managed to fix the bass of one of my HD202s, but I couldn't touch the treble issue which this particular M50 doesn't seem to have.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Anaxilus. on September 08, 2013, 12:49:44 AM
Think I started w/ blue painters tape and covered 4 ports on each cup.  Two in the top and bottom U-rows each.  I forget the orientation I settled on and final material.  Try covering one hole left and right off the center on each row.  The material does make a slight difference as well.  Like using transpore, don't think I liked that for the M50.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: ultrabike on September 08, 2013, 06:09:34 AM
Since the mod is reversible I gave it a shot with masking tape, but things were still bassy.

I covered more ports in the front of the driver, a gap between the cup and the driver assembly (covered by the pads anyway), and a gap between the cup and the cup swivel (covered by the padding behind the driver anyway),... but still bassy.

Relatively speaking completely covering the one tinny port inside the HD202 cup fully castrates it. A careful partial covering of the HD202 port can yield neutral signature at the expense of more distortion. Treble is more problematic with the HD202 though.

Equalization can easily fix the M50 bass emphasis, but harder to fix the HD202 treble null. LOL! My friend that lend me his M50s is actually well aware he is a basshead and equalizes his M50 for even moar bass!  :-DD
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Anaxilus. on September 08, 2013, 07:14:25 AM
Found my old posts on the mod.  Stages in terms of bass reduction.

Stage 1-6 holes covered using painters tape leaving the center hole open.
Stage 2-5 holes covered w/ felt feet; basically all holes except the extreme left and right.
Stage 3-6 holes covered using adhesive felt feet from Home Depot.
Stage 4-6 holes covered w/ felt feet and replace pads w/ Shure 840 pads.

You can always try all holes covered w/ felt feet and 840 pads...

At the time I preferred Stage 2 but I was using an iPod nano w/ older HE Arrow amp.  A bit thinner sounding setup.

Don't count on the pads 'covering' up anything.  AT went to the trouble of putting them there.  Also, my set came in a whitebox so that may have been a newer version if such a thing exists. 
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Armaegis on September 09, 2013, 07:44:19 PM
I've owned three M50's in the past few years. The first one I had I really didn't like and felt like there was a big treble spike. The second and third I had were better, still feeling a bit hot up top but not as grating as before. The third had quite a bit of bass, the second not so much. Granted, these were all used and at various stages of wear. However, I usually switched out the pads for 840 ones so at least that part was mostly consistent.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: ultrabike on September 09, 2013, 10:54:26 PM
(http://charliecompanydotorg.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/forrest-gump1.jpg)
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Armaegis on September 10, 2013, 06:52:13 AM
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel about it. I suspect the whole white box thing isn't so much a revision as they've just improved the consistency.

Still, decent sound, solid construction, decent comfort, and easy to find on sale and even pre-modded with a removeable cable. Meh pads, but 840 pads can be had for $15-20 so that's my recommended upgrade for anyone looking into them, if nothing else just for improved comfort and isolation.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: ultrabike on September 10, 2013, 07:27:42 AM
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel about it.

 :)p13  You and me both! And thanks for sharing your impressions!

My friends particular M50s have very nice treble and mids in my opinion... Don't like product variations a la Beyer DT1350 though.
Title: Re: Audio Technica ATH-M50 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plots
Post by: Anaxilus. on September 10, 2013, 07:48:09 AM
Yeah that's pretty much how I feel about it.

 :)p13  You and me both! And thanks for sharing your impressions!

My friends particular M50s have very nice treble and mids in my opinion... Don't like product variations a la Beyer DT1350 though.

Yeah, my M50s mids we nice as well, not recessed.  Though they all suffer from the upper mid recess impacting female vocal and string tones.