CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Music and Recordings => Topic started by: Skyline on December 11, 2013, 03:33:33 PM
Title: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Skyline on December 11, 2013, 03:33:33 PM
Hey all...
For those of you into vinyl, I was wondering about your ripping methods. I've had decent results, but am always looking to improve.
I've got my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon running through a Pro-Ject Phono Box USB V.
I'm using Audicity to do my initial rip.
Then I'm using Brian Davies' click repair tools to clean it up. Well, to be honest, I used it during the free trial, but haven't paid for it yet. So, I've got a stack of vinyl just waiting to be ripped.
Thoughts? Opinions? Any good results to share?
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: burnspbesq on December 11, 2013, 07:16:07 PM
Unfortunately, the biggest step you can take to improve the quality of your vinyl rips is also the most expensive: an external ADC.
The best consumer ADC I know about is the Ayre QA-9; however, the price might make you :vomit: (It's close to USD 4K).
I use a Lynx Hilo, which I consider to be one of the great bargains in headphone-land. You get a high-quality DAC, a high-quality ADC, and a better-than-decent headphone amp, all in one reasonably small box.
I use PureVinyl instead of Audacity to rip, principally because it can rip at 192/24, which Audacity apparently can't. I've tried Amarra Vinyl, but I've never gotten good results. I get AIFF files as my output.
Historically, I've been using Audacity both for cleanup and to insert track breaks and metadata. I downloaded an evaluation copy of Izotope Rx3 a couple of days ago; it's much more powerful than Audacity for cleanup, but I haven't decided yet whether it's worth $349 to me.
The final steps in my workflow, after cleanup and insertion of track breaks, are (1) conversion of files from AIFF to Apple Lossless (using Max) and (2) creation of a downsampled (48/24) copy for use on iOS devices, for which I use Korg AudioGate.
HTH.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Skyline on December 11, 2013, 07:25:22 PM
Unfortunately, the biggest step you can take to improve the quality of your vinyl rips is also the most expensive: an external ADC.
The best consumer ADC I know about is the Ayre QA-9; however, the price might make you :vomit: (It's close to USD 4K).
I use a Lynx Hilo, which I consider to be one of the great bargains in headphone-land. You get a high-quality DAC, a high-quality ADC, and a better-than-decent headphone amp, all in one reasonably small box.
I use PureVinyl instead of Audacity to rip, principally because it can rip at 192/24, which Audacity apparently can't. I've tried Amarra Vinyl, but I've never gotten good results. I get AIFF files as my output.
Historically, I've been using Audacity both for cleanup and to insert track breaks and metadata. I downloaded an evaluation copy of Izotope Rx3 a couple of days ago; it's much more powerful than Audacity for cleanup, but I haven't decided yet whether it's worth $349 to me.
The final steps in my workflow, after cleanup and insertion of track breaks, are (1) conversion of files from AIFF to Apple Lossless (using Max) and (2) creation of a downsampled (48/24) copy for use on iOS devices, for which I use Korg AudioGate.
HTH.
Look into the Brian Davies tools. I've bad much better luck with them than with Audacity and it's far cheaper than Izotope. Something like $40 for the click removal and another 40 for the noise removal.
I've never been too worried about 192/24. I don't think my ears are good enough to detect the difference (or my equipment isn't good enough to take advantage of it).
And yeah...4k is just a taaaaad out of my price range :P
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: mechgamer123 on December 11, 2013, 10:53:02 PM
I would be curious as well. My vinyl ripping setup is very ghetto and cheap. (Technics SL-1600 -> Shure M92e -> Custom DIY phono pre -> Laptop ADC).
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Armaegis on December 12, 2013, 02:26:51 AM
I've never heard it, but this device piqued my curiosity when it first came out... http://www.adl-av.com/products/usbdac/gt40/
Anyone have any experience with it?
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: LFF on December 12, 2013, 07:59:47 AM
Every single time someone mentions vinyl rips or any other analog-to-digital conversion, I think I look like this...
I've been doing these types of transfers for well almost 14 years now. What's my method?
THERE IS NO METHOD!
You must treat each recording on it's very own. There is no guaranteed workflow that will work for every record. burnspbesq is right...the best thing for the job is a good ADC. Then you have to make sure a whole host of other things are right and that they all work flawlessly at the same time.
Assuming the very best audio is captured (NEVER the case), then you have to clean it up PROPERLY. This means do NO harm to the music. Noise reduction is a no-no. Moreover, there isn't a single tool that will de-click, de-clip, de-ess, de-noise, de(whatever) anything properly. In the past 14 years I think I have used and still use a combination of tools. I think I use 7 de-clickers regularly when doing restorations and I only use some based upon the results I get. There is no one-plug-in-to-rule-them-all.
Now...let's say you have a kick-ass plug-in like ReNOVAtor (http://www.algorithmix.com/en/renovator.htm)and a proper workstation that can actually run it properly....big whoop. You need to know how to properly dial in the parameters to use it correctly. You can have the best equipment and plug-in's available but if you don't know how to properly use them and what to listen for, you might as well be called Bob Norberg. Your tools are amazing...your results sound like poo.
That said, given enough patience and practice, you would be amazed at what results you can sometimes get... (https://soundcloud.com/fpaudio/sample-restoration/s-2tFfv)
I did this restoration back around 2008 IIRC. Fixing that piano note at the beginning was a real bitch. :)p2
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Hands on December 12, 2013, 08:57:49 AM
I know it's not vinyl, but in terms of DR, you can get excellent results downmixing 5.1 to stereo if available, and you likely don't need any hardware outside of the computer you already have. You can downmix in Audacity as well, so it can be considerably cheaper and easier than ripping vinyl properly.
I have done this with some of the Opeth albums. Dramatic difference, even with just a fairly quick job of it.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Skyline on December 12, 2013, 02:02:04 PM
I've been doing these types of transfers for well almost 14 years now. What's my method?
THERE IS NO METHOD!
You must treat each recording on it's very own. There is no guaranteed workflow that will work for every record. burnspbesq is right...the best thing for the job is a good ADC. Then you have to make sure a whole host of other things are right and that they all work flawlessly at the same time.
Assuming the very best audio is captured (NEVER the case), then you have to clean it up PROPERLY. This means do NO harm to the music. Noise reduction is a no-no. Moreover, there isn't a single tool that will de-click, de-clip, de-ess, de-noise, de(whatever) anything properly. In the past 14 years I think I have used and still use a combination of tools. I think I use 7 de-clickers regularly when doing restorations and I only use some based upon the results I get. There is no one-plug-in-to-rule-them-all.
Now...let's say you have a kick-ass plug-in like ReNOVAtor (http://www.algorithmix.com/en/renovator.htm)and a proper workstation that can actually run it properly....big whoop. You need to know how to properly dial in the parameters to use it correctly. You can have the best equipment and plug-in's available but if you don't know how to properly use them and what to listen for, you might as well be called Bob Norberg. Your tools are amazing...your results sound like poo.
That said, given enough patience and practice, you would be amazed at what results you can sometimes get... (https://soundcloud.com/fpaudio/sample-restoration/s-2tFfv)
I did this restoration back around 2008 IIRC. Fixing that piano note at the beginning was a real bitch. :)p2
I read your post and here's what I got out of it.
I'm going to UPS you all of my vinyl this afternoon, and just let you do the job for me :)p2
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Stapsy on December 12, 2013, 05:27:01 PM
Ya seriously. Amazing work there LFF. I listened to it through my phone with the re-400 and the dynamic range still shines through.
Are all the pops,clicks, artifacts etc. the result of the AD conversion? I am assuming that they are not audible if you listen to it in analog or else it seems like there is very little point in vinyl.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: CCS on December 12, 2013, 05:36:43 PM
Ya seriously. Amazing work there LFF. I listened to it through my phone with the re-400 and the dynamic range still shines through.
Are all the pops,clicks, artifacts etc. the result of the AD conversion? I am assuming that they are not audible if you listen to it in analog or else it seems like there is very little point in vinyl.
If it's older vinyl, it's possible that most, if not all, of the noise you're hearing is the vinyl and that it would be audible when playing it back on a turntable. That's one of the reasons why proper vinyl care is so important. It'll keep it sounding cleaner for a longer period of time. However, even if you handle the stuff with kid gloves, it is my understanding that it will not sound perfect forever.
I assume you don't have much experience with vinyl, then?
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: burnspbesq on December 12, 2013, 05:41:44 PM
My biggest beef with Audacity as a repair tool is (pun intended) the Repair tool.
I figured out fairly early in my experience with Audacity that the Click Removal tool is pretty useless; it inflicts too much collateral damage around the click. The Repair tool does a pretty good job of click removal, and its interpolation is OK. The issue is that the "width" of a repair is limited to 128 samples, and when you're dealing with files where the sample rate is 192k, there are inevitably going to be clicks that go on for more than .00067 seconds. Sometimes you can get away with removing a click in two or three passes without introducing some kind of audible artifact. Most times you can't.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Stapsy on December 12, 2013, 06:57:57 PM
Nope not very much, but what I have heard wasn't as bad as what LFF posted. Since people are trying to clean up the sound I thought it may have been something to do with the AD transfer process.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Skyline on December 12, 2013, 07:03:24 PM
My biggest beef with Audacity as a repair tool is (pun intended) the Repair tool.
I figured out fairly early in my experience with Audacity that the Click Removal tool is pretty useless; it inflicts too much collateral damage around the click. The Repair tool does a pretty good job of click removal, and its interpolation is OK. The issue is that the "width" of a repair is limited to 128 samples, and when you're dealing with files where the sample rate is 192k, there are inevitably going to be clicks that go on for more than .00067 seconds. Sometimes you can get away with removing a click in two or three passes without introducing some kind of audible artifact. Most times you can't.
Yes, I've found Audacity worthless as a click removal tool.
As I've already suggested, I'll strongly reiterate my suggestion to check out Brian Davies' repair tools. They have a 2-3 week free trial period, and you really have a TON of control over the process. You can use it as a completely automatic tool, or you can manually adjust and tinker with every single click. You have a LOT of control over the process.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: LFF on December 13, 2013, 12:05:05 AM
Ya seriously. Amazing work there LFF. I listened to it through my phone with the re-400 and the dynamic range still shines through.
Are all the pops,clicks, artifacts etc. the result of the AD conversion? I am assuming that they are not audible if you listen to it in analog or else it seems like there is very little point in vinyl.
Thanks. :)
According to my customer, his LP was in mint condition. It looked dead mint but it was dirty as all hell. I told him the LP would require a lot of work, including some deep cleaning. That's what it sounded before getting deep cleaned. I had already given it a normal wash. Most people send me a nice looking vinyl thinking it will be just an "easy" transfer job.
Even with super minty clean vinyl, you will always get pops, clicks, etc. They are always audible but you get them far less than a used, dirty LP, like the one above, where the noise is constant. Groove wear is another culprit that can't be easily spotted with the naked eye but kills the sound. Same with mold. The point of vinyl as I see it...
1. Stuff you can't get on CD (including original mixes, mono mixes, non-released albums, actual master tapes used, etc etc) 2. Usually sounds better. No compression. There are exceptions 3. Usually has less distortion. There are exceptions. 4. Usually has better mastering. There are exceptions. 5. AWESOME BIG artwork.
I'll post another comparison clip later tonight... :)p6
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Questhate on December 13, 2013, 12:13:49 AM
Nice work, LFF. I love that record. Was it an original press?
This thread has me super interested in that Lynx Hilo. Is the headphone out really not that bad?
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Maxvla on December 13, 2013, 12:44:20 AM
I recall Purrin liking the Hilo. Not sure where it lands on the 17 DAC comparo, though.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Stapsy on December 13, 2013, 01:02:39 AM
God damn you guys are going to get me thrown out of my house! I went to a music store and was amazed at all the new release vinyl they had. The prices were only a couple dollars more than the CD's I bought. If you can find better masters, rip them to your hard drive, and have pretty albums to look at then vinyl sounds pretty awesome. Any A/D options other than the Hilo? I am thinking pro audio stuff might work better for A/D than D/A. I know the Benchmark DAC gets a lot of flak, but if you were to use something along those lines (measures well but doesn't sound good) to A/D is that going to negatively affect the sound? I am not sure if an A/D converter would impart a sound in the same way a DAC does.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Questhate on December 13, 2013, 02:49:25 AM
Most of the new releases come with download cards for the digital version too. Most of them are only 320kbps mp3s, but it seems more and more are starting to include a FLAC option. Hell, I think the last Dirty Projectors had a 24-bit FLAC download. But then you get the occasional record come with 160kbps mp3 download and get pissed at the label for wasting your time.
Regarding the A/D, everything in the path will color the sound -- from the turntable to the cartridge to the ADC. I'm sure if you're careful about picking your signal chain, your vinyl rips can sound better than CDs, but a lot of rips floating around the net sound worse (like people ripping from USB turntables.)
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: burnspbesq on December 13, 2013, 03:04:11 AM
God damn you guys are going to get me thrown out of my house! I went to a music store and was amazed at all the new release vinyl they had. The prices were only a couple dollars more than the CD's I bought. If you can find better masters, rip them to your hard drive, and have pretty albums to look at then vinyl sounds pretty awesome. Any A/D options other than the Hilo? I am thinking pro audio stuff might work better for A/D than D/A. I know the Benchmark DAC gets a lot of flak, but if you were to use something along those lines (measures well but doesn't sound good) to A/D is that going to negatively affect the sound? I am not sure if an A/D converter would impart a sound in the same way a DAC does.
Benchmark makes an ADC that looks a lot like the DAC1. I've never played with it, but the guy who reviewed it for Sound on Sound when it was introduced in 2006 liked it.
Hell, I think the last Dirty Projectors had a 24-bit FLAC download.
16/44.1 WAV
Thanks so much for pointing this out. Every LP I've gotten has only offered low quality mp3s, so I hadn't even bothered to check the Dirty Projectors download.
Much appreciated!
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Questhate on December 13, 2013, 04:17:07 PM
No prob. I just checked and it looks like only the deluxe versions of the vinyl came with the 24-bit download. Sorry for the false alarm.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Skyline on December 13, 2013, 04:20:02 PM
No prob. I just checked and it looks like only the deluxe versions of the vinyl came with the 24-bit download. Sorry for the false alarm.
I immediately went through some of my other LPs excitedly, and found another with .FLAC downloads available. Struck out with the other two only offering mp3s, though.
If companies consistently offered high-res downloads, I'd never purchase anything other than LPs in the future.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: LFF on December 23, 2013, 11:50:13 PM
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: Tari on December 24, 2013, 12:00:40 AM
Want to hear... is this track privatized?
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: LFF on December 24, 2013, 12:12:49 AM
Nevermind...it got removed...
"[colour=rgb(51, 51, 51)][size=78%]Our automatic content protection system has detected that your track, "Before and After Sample - Classical",[/size][/colour][colour=rgb(51, 51, 51)][/colour][colour=rgb(51, 51, 51)]may contain copyright protected content and we've blocked it from being published on your profile. " [/colour] p:8
Here it is...
http://www.sendspace.com/file/nk824q
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: xnor on December 24, 2013, 01:00:11 AM
Put record on, connect Behringer UFO202 (16/44.1 or 48 kHz), record, drop needle, perfect rip. :)p6
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: LFF on December 24, 2013, 01:03:07 AM
I wish it were that easy.
A friend of mine got a few RCA Living Stereo shaded dogs so we have been having fun working on those to pass the time away. Amazing sound from some of that wax...sadly, many of these are relatively obscure and hard to find.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: burnspbesq on December 24, 2013, 01:09:30 AM
Quite. A friend of mine does absolutely brilliant sounding rips using a Technics SL-1200 with a Rega arm, Shure cart, $600 Simaudio Pre, and a $250 Native Instruments ADC. The entire rig is worth maybe $3500. He does all of his processing in Sound Forge by hand. I can't count the number of rips I've heard done on systems with $3500 cartridges that sound like garbage. Clicks, pops, and ticks galore, LF rumble problems, etc. That or they run them through something like ClickRepair on auto mode, which makes the recording sound like a quiet version of the CD.
Still tons of folks that assume that throwing $10K at a turntable will give them fantastic results from their rips, no matter what.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: LFF on December 24, 2013, 07:19:24 AM
Quite. A friend of mine does absolutely brilliant sounding rips using a Technics SL-1200 with a Rega arm, Shure cart, $600 Simaudio Pre, and a $250 Native Instruments ADC. The entire rig is worth maybe $3500. He does all of his processing in Sound Forge by hand. I can't count the number of rips I've heard done on systems with $3500 cartridges that sound like garbage. Clicks, pops, and ticks galore, LF rumble problems, etc. That or they run them through something like ClickRepair on auto mode, which makes the recording sound like a quiet version of the CD.
Still tons of folks that assume that throwing $10K at a turntable will give them fantastic results from their rips, no matter what.
Yup!
There is a well known audiophile who shares his rips and they are always noisy and never properly done despite having a rather high end system. Doing proper rips is more about passion rather than just throwing money at your system.
Don't even get me started on noise reduction!
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: mechgamer123 on January 16, 2014, 10:43:09 PM
So, any recommendations for non-$3500 cartridges that sound good? I took a quick sample of two phono preamps connected straight to my laptop's ADC and put them on Google Drive here: (Let me know if that's a no-no. It's a 1 minute clip of "With A Little Help From My Friends") https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B9KhPSL6UNZ1Q25qcXIyMnZVbkU&usp=drive_web I honestly don't remember which preamp was which, but in both, the Shure M92e makes a mess of the treble.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: DaveBSC on January 17, 2014, 12:43:52 AM
So, any recommendations for non-$3500 cartridges that sound good?
At the $500 level, your best bet is the Dynavector 10X5 or Audio-Technica AT33PTG/II. Once you start getting into serious money, you really need to pay attention to not just this cart or that but compliance and output so you can match a particular MC cart with the right arm and phono pre. I guarantee you that a moderately priced arm and cart that are made for each other will outperform expensive arms that are too light or heavy for a particular cart.
The Benz Gliders and SLRs are ok, not spectacular. The LP-S Class is fucking awesome, but getting a Benz cart in the US seems to be a real problem these days, and anyway, the LP-S is $5K. Koetsus are ONLY worth it if you can find a huge discount on one. I've seen Rosewood Signatures listed for $1500 or so, which is a very good deal. The $4500 retail? Forget it.
Lyra's Delos is actually not too shabby for $1600. The balance is still leaner than I would prefer, but it's not as analytical as some of Lyra's far more expensive carts. Rega carts are a giant pile of crap, avoid. A few years ago I would've whole heartedly recommended a Shelter, but Shelters have gotten really pricey lately. I just don't see the 901 being worth $2600, and my 7000 definitely isn't worth $3400. I picked it up for half that.
I know very little about Soundsmith's affordable carts, so I can't make a recommendation one way or the other there. Being good at $4K carts doesn't mean you're any good at $1K carts - ask Benz Micro. ZYX's R100 series has a very good reputation, but you're talking $2500 there.
Edit: I haven't heard Shelter's new 501 MKIII. In fact I didn't even know about it until just now. The price really isn't bad though.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: shipsupt on January 17, 2014, 08:42:42 AM
I had some recommendations, but since Dave's answer is so definitive I guess they are not relevant. Little did I know.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: mechgamer123 on January 17, 2014, 09:21:44 AM
LOL, I guess I should have specified my budget a bit more... I'm still a starving college student, so $500+ is a bit rich for my blood. Is there anything under, say $250 that I should look into? Preferably even less? I've heard that swapping out styli from higher end Shure carts is a quick and cheap way to upgrade the quality of the lower end Shures. Right now, I just have a Technics SL-1600 that I got from a relative for free.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: gurubhai on January 17, 2014, 09:25:40 AM
I had some recommendations, but since Dave's answer is so definitive I guess the are not relevant. Little did I know.
I would probably like to know what Dave's own TT setup looks like, wonder what a man of seemingly infinite knowledge and experience uses at his own place.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: DaveBSC on January 17, 2014, 03:27:28 PM
LOL, I guess I should have specified my budget a bit more... I'm still a starving college student, so $500+ is a bit rich for my blood. Is there anything under, say $250 that I should look into? Preferably even less? I've heard that swapping out styli from higher end Shure carts is a quick and cheap way to upgrade the quality of the lower end Shures. Right now, I just have a Technics SL-1600 that I got from a relative for free.
A friend of mine uses a Jico stylus with his Shure V15VxMR on a Rega MB300 with good results. The $99 Ortofon 2M Red is pretty much the default entry level recommendation from most of the audiophile press, but I'm not sure it's as great as they say it is. Denon's $199 DL-103 is another popular recommendation, BUT you need a heavy mass arm/headshell for it, so keep that in mind. Assuming your arm has a removable headshell, you can replace it with something a bit heavier to properly match the 103. You may also need to add a counter-weight to the back though if you do that.
IMO though your best bet for an affordable MM cart is an Audio-Technica - maybe something like an AT-440ML if you can swing $200. Check out LP Gear, they have loads of A-T carts and can probably steer you in the right direction for your setup.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: shipsupt on January 17, 2014, 03:53:32 PM
You'd be creeping back up to $500, but you can get the Zu version of the DL-103 for under that... it's supposed to be a nice cart too.
I've not listened to a lot of AT stuff, but I hear the same thing Dave does, that they have some really good budget cartridges to consider.
Title: Re: Ripping Vinyl Records
Post by: DaveBSC on January 17, 2014, 04:08:18 PM
I would probably like to know what Dave's own TT setup looks like, wonder what a man of seemingly infinite knowledge and experience uses at his own place.
Hah! I wouldn't say infinite, but I've played with my share of stuff. My vinyl rig used to change fairly frequently, but with my current setup I just don't really feel the need to do anything else, I'm kind of done. I've said else where that I believe that Origin-Live tables outperform most of the other tables I've heard at the sub $4K level like the AVID Diva II and Michell Gryo. After hearing Nottinghams though, I knew I had to try one at home, and once I did that was it.
Specifically it's the Space 294 table and matching Ace Space 294 12" arm, which at this sort of price level I think is untouchable. You have to push start the platter, and then to stop it, you basically use your hands a brake. It's weird, but you can't argue with the sound. The arm is a unipivot which is definitely NOT my favorite type, but again, you can't argue with the sound, so I put up with it. It also matches VERY well with Shelter carts.
I'm sure an uber Kuzma or Brinkmann would easily beat this rig, but even if I doubled what i have in it, I don't think I'd get that much further. If I see an LP-S Class pop up on Audiogon or something I would definitely grab it, but otherwise, I'm set.