CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: Anathallo on September 02, 2012, 03:12:10 PM
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So I'm still pretty fresh to the hobby. My system isn't really TOTL, nor have I been able to compare it to other similar setups, but I still very much enjoy it. I use this website (and head-fi, but it's hard to wade through the fanboy-isms sometimes) to try and guide future upgrades/purchases, but I've noticed there's very little talk of DACs on this website. It's primarily headphones, with some amp talk trailing behind.
Is it that you've all found your 'good enough' DACs, or is the market really that stagnant with respect to new, good products?
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There was a thread not too long ago where they discussed high end DACs for use in home rigs:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,425.msg7212.html
As for me, my "good enough" DAC is the Centrance Dacport LX. I've heard better but I haven't felt the need to upgrade yet.
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I'm watching the $2000-3000 DAC space very closely. There are loads of great DACs in the $5-8K range, and there are a few very good ones at the $1500 level, but not a ton in between. The Ayre QB-9 is outdated and outmatched, and the Eximus DP-1 seems to be over-hyped by the usual suspects. Arcam's DP33 seems to be terrible.
One DAC that has me very curious is Burl's B2 Bomber. Pro use DACs are typically no frills (with no frills pricing). Weiss for example put a $2K "home use fee" on their Minerva. Slightly prettier buttons than the pro DAC2 - $2K.
No USB, but that's easy enough to add with an Anedio U2 or Audiophilleo.
(http://www.sweetwater.com/images/items/750/B2BomberDAC-large.jpg)
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The DAC market has a whole lot of new products coming out, driven by the speaker market and not the (comparatively) niche headphone market.
Most of these DAC's carry higher and higher price tags, with fancier casework to match. At this point there isn't a whole lot to do differently - DSD is one 'in' thing, and it seems like some (Light Harmonic, Antelope) are pushing 24/384 as a thing. Other than that it's a game of chassis and features in the audiophile (non Pro) market, and there's so much BS and so little variation in well designed non-tube Delta Sigma DACs that frankly it doesn't warrant nearly as much conversation as transducers and amps.
Sites like Gearslutz have some very good threads on DACs. Sites like CA can be worse than HF.
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The DACPort is truly good enough. The ODAC is good if you can make it work with a beefy USB port.
How much do you want to spend? I know a few members have the NAD M51, PS Audio PWD1/2, and Buffalo.
If you are into DIY, a few of us are secretly in the process of assembling some crazy Buffalo3 based builds which will work with DSD.
I should be getting in a loaner Gungnir...
P.S. I would also have to say no on the DP-1, unless you know exactly what you are getting into. It's possible that those on HF who are exalting it have never heard anything better.
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Speaking of the PWD, have any of you guys been able to compare the PWD and the DL3? I've been wondering if the DL3 would be a clear upgrade over the Dacport LX, or if it would be better to just save up for a PWD.
Another DAC I've been considering is the Calyx 24/192.
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Yeah. The PWD just kills the DL3, even the modded ones.
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The thing about the DP-1 is that it has a romantic euphony. However, that means colored and less detailed. It does have very pretty leaves engraved on it.
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The DACPort is truly good enough. The ODAC is good if you can make it work with a beefy USB port.
How much do you want to spend? I know a few members have the NAD M51, PS Audio PWD1/2, and Buffalo.
If you are into DIY, a few of us are secretly in the process of assembling some crazy Buffalo3 based builds which will work with DSD.
I should be getting in a loaner Gungnir...
P.S. I would also have to say no on the DP-1, unless you know exactly what you are getting into. It's possible that those on HF who are exalting it have never heard anything better.
Ideally less than $2k, but in reality I could go higher - it just becomes an issue of "is this worth it?" more than "can I afford it?" I think the former comes into play far before the latter.
I have a Bifrost right now, and I'm happy with it, but I listen to some music and, without any evidence to support it other than having been to live orchestras and jazz shows, that I am missing information. It still sounds like a recording, not the instruments. I'm using a Super 7 --> HE-5LE or --> Woo Wee + 404LE
I also have an ODAC that I use with my laptop on the go, but I much prefer the Bifrost overall, which leads me to believe that I can get more out of my system with a better DAC.
The other thing, which in the end I won't rely on 100%, is that I'd like to buy Canadian. I don't know anyone that owns these models, so I can't listen to them, but I've been eyeing the
Resonessence Invicta
NAD M51
Bryston BDA-1
exaSound E20 <--- brand new model, but also the only company that has a schiit-like 30 day trial period, and their offices are a 10 minute drive from my condo. I've heard nothing about this company before stumbling on their website while surfing one day.
As for the DIY route, I don't have the time or the knowledge (or the time to gain the knowledge) to go the DIY route. Maybe in a couple of years, but work is just too busy. It really does amaze me, though, the kinds of stuff some of you DIYers put together. Pretty amazing stuff.
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Speaking of the PWD, have any of you guys been able to compare the PWD and the DL3? I've been wondering if the DL3 would be a clear upgrade over the Dacport LX, or if it would be better to just save up for a PWD.
Another DAC I've been considering is the Calyx 24/192.
I was also eyeing a used, upgraded DL3 but it just didn't seem like a clear or worthwhile upgrade over the Bifrost from what I read.
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The Invicta is stellar, but quite a bit above your price range.
Pigmode on HF has a Neko FS in Canada for $600. It punches well above that price range.
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The Invicta is stellar, but quite a bit above your price range.
Pigmode on HF has a Neko FS in Canada for $600. It punches well above that price range.
Indeed, I've read really good things about the Invicta. But what really separates it from the E20? They both use the same chips, and the E20 seems to have a larger feature set with equally good measurements (although they obviously will make the measurements look as good as possible)... What's the extra $1500 go to with the Invicta? I realise the implementation, power supply, etc.. will all have an impact,
http://www.exasound.com/e20DAC/e20DACOverview.aspx
I'm not trying to push the exa, I'm just trying to learn how to read past the marketing bs. Both websites seem pretty direct without marketing magic talk, though.
Regarding the Neko, why is he selling it for $900 less than retail? Seems too good to be true....
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Monte is an upstanding, long time member on HF. He sold his HD800, Arete/Volcano, and now his Neko at great prices on a whim. I wouldn't hesitate buying from him for a second.
The exasound looks really interesting. Can't comment as I've never heard it and have no idea who runs it. Suffice to say that "Async, 9018, galvanic isolation, DSD" are great selling points but don't tell you everything about the DAC's implementation. The Invicta uses an original algorithm for dithering that no one else incorporates. It is designed by Dustin Forman, who was the engineer behind the 9018 and has quite a few patents to his name. The SDXC card (with HDMI out for control on a screen) was a big plus for me, as is the OLED display, the build quality, and the 30 day guaranty. The headphone out on the unit is also pretty great. Also includes a remote, which is a feature that adds more to cost than you would think, especially on small-run units. The Invicta will have DSD capabilities within the year but I don't have any idea whether they plan on supporting 384. If you read what Lavry has to say on the matter there's a significant downside to 192 and 384 anyways and there is not much out there recorded in DSD.
Looks like both these DACs have a 30 day risk-free trial, so there's nothing to stop you from trying out the cheaper e20 first and then returning if you don't like it and going for the Invicta.
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Remember that Meitner is also in Canada, and I know dealers who sell the MA-1 for not much more than the Invicta...
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Ideally less than $2k, but in reality I could go higher - it just becomes an issue of "is this worth it?" more than "can I afford it?" I think the former comes into play far before the latter.
I kinda have a friendly disagreement with most of the other pirates here on this issue. I think that, practically at least, DACs are least important part of the system since even cheap ones are so damn good in the big picture of overall SQ. I haven't been convinced that a lot of the differences people talk about between DACs are actually real either.
Anyway, I'm not here to tell you what you should or shouldn't believe, just to present the counter point and let you make up your mind.
You're talking about spending a lot of money and I think you'd probably get a bigger improvement for it if you spent it somewhere else. A new set of 'phones if there's a pair you've had you eye on or maybe a dedicated 'stat amp for the 404LE. I've heard good things about the S7 so that's probably a keeper.
OTOH, if you're in love with the rest of your system then a DAC really is the only place to go.
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Speaking of the PWD, have any of you guys been able to compare the PWD and the DL3? I've been wondering if the DL3 would be a clear upgrade over the Dacport LX, or if it would be better to just save up for a PWD.
Another DAC I've been considering is the Calyx 24/192.
The DL-3 is pretty dated at this point. Mediocre receiver, lousy USB. You're better off with a W4S or Minimax. *Most* people seem to really like the Calyx, but it needs the LPS to really get the most out of it. Calyx powered via USB is good, wall-wart better, LPS best. The Calyx CLPS I think is bundled with the DAC by dealers now.
Another option for less money (when the CLPS is factored in) is the Anedio D2. They sell out very fast, but you get the same Sabre DAC and genuinely balanced circuitry, plus a headphone amp and much easier source switching than the Calyx. The Anedio uses their converter internally wired to the DAC's input board for USB. That gets you galvanic isolation (+) but also an S/Pdif conversion that must go through the WM8805 digital receiver (-). The Calyx's USB goes straight into the DAC, along with any noise ridding on the Vbus line.
The PWD is fairly popular, and there's always a steady supply on Audiogon for around $1,000 off list. My opinion on PS is mixed though, my PPP sucked, and I thought their gaincell amps sounded like garbage. I'm wary about trying them again.
Audio-GD comes out with a new DAC every 3 days or so, and they all have asynch inputs now, no more adaptive mode.
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Also, if you decide to go for the PWD MK2 I can direct you to a dealer who sells them for $2700 brand spanking new.
As for the whole placebo thing/"All DACs go to heaven", that's why I ordered the Cantata. At least if it's all in my head I have something pretty to look at.
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The Bryston is alright, nothing special, and the USB input is a joke. The exaSound is interesting, seems to hit a lot of the right points, but it's unclear if the USB is Class 2 or not, if it's not that means drivers on Mac and no Linux. The Sabre is also very difficult to implement properly. Get it wrong, and you get very clinical, sterile sound. There's a reason why a lot of manufacturers are opting for the WM8741 instead (or AKM or AD). The Burl uses the AKM4399, which is popular with Accuphase and Esoteric - companies that know a thing or two about DACs.
A good digital source and a good DAC can mean the difference between a system that sounds "digital" (flat, boring, very "hi-fi") and one that sounds like real music with real musicians playing. Jitter is hard to describe, but having lots of it does not get you good sound. I would not throw an EMM or dCS into a $500 headphone rig.
I would also not assume that the Matrix Mini-i is just like a Berkeley Alpha DAC because they both use two AD1955s.
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NAD m51, because Australia gets NADs cheap. :P
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NAD m51, because Australia gets NADs cheap. :P
I need to get my Octave before I go buy the M51. By then the prices will have gone up huh. :-S
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Thanks for the great recommendations guys :)p1 I think it's great that there are so many nice DACs to pick from, even though they were created more for people who are into speakers. My problem now is actually not having enough time to research on all the interesting products. Hopefully the Gungnir is as good value as the Mjolnir.
Locally, it seems that the only easily available one on the list is the NAD m51, although PS Audio does have a local distro.
Has anyone heard the Yulong D18 Sabre DAC btw?
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I need to get my Octave before I go buy the M51. By then the prices will have gone up huh. :-S
NO! How about the Audio-gd Reference 7.1 that's been raved about on the stereo.net.au forums? :P
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i'm still slumming it with my BM DAC1 (6 years) and MF V-Link and have no plans to change.
volume matched, i would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the DAC1 and my y2.
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I'll be upgrading my Onkyo DAC-1000 soon-ish.
Trying to decide whether to go for something like the NAD M51, or fork over double for something like the Antelope Zodiac Gold.
Basically for dynamic amp I'll be getting the Manley 300B or the Liquid Glass. Probably upgrade my 'stat rig to an Electra eventually as well.
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I need to get my Octave before I go buy the M51. By then the prices will have gone up huh. :-S
NO! How about the Audio-gd Reference 7.1 that's been raved about on the stereo.net.au forums? :P
I never understand how people could like any audio GD crap hahaha
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I'll be upgrading my Onkyo DAC-1000 soon-ish.
Trying to decide whether to go for something like the NAD M51, or fork over double for something like the Antelope Zodiac Gold.
Basically for dynamic amp I'll be getting the Manley 300B or the Liquid Glass. Probably upgrade my 'stat rig to an Electra eventually as well.
The Zodiac Gold is definitely not worth two NAD's. If you must buy one, wait until Black Friday when Neil from Sound Science Cat puts it on special. The thing about the Antelope DACs is if you're not using 24/384, don't use it extensively to attenuate volume as a preamp, and don't care about the fancy remote, the lower models + voltikus are indistinguishable from the Gold (give or take some inputs.)
Also Antelope one of the shadiest companies out there. Aardvark itself was shady enough. Still, I have been contacted by an engineer from Antelope who said he and two other engineers are trying to put a lawsuit together as Igor took their original work at Antelope, patented it himself, threw them out of the company to avoid paying them, and then profited off their ingenuity.
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Also Antelope one of the shadiest companies out there. Aardvark itself was shady enough. Still, I have been contacted by an engineer from Antelope who said he and two other engineers are trying to put a lawsuit together as Igor took their original work at Antelope, patented it himself, threw them out of the company to avoid paying them, and then profited off their ingenuity.
That in and of itself is enough to turn me off of their products.
I figured they were pretty sleazy with all that fancy market-speak, but I was rather impressed by the way the Gold sounded. I didn't hear any of the lower models however.
The NAD M51, like the DAC-1000, is appealing to me because it seems simple, manageable, and effective. By comparison the PWD seems a bit overwrought.
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I figured they were pretty sleazy with all that fancy market-speak, but I was rather impressed by the way the Gold sounded. I didn't hear any of the lower models however.
The NAD M51, like the DAC-1000, is appealing to me because it seems simple, manageable, and effective. By comparison the PWD seems a bit overwrought.
I feel like the Zodiac is only in the same league with DACs like the Anedio and the Auralic. I'm not sure where that money is going. For what it's worth, I've been hearing a lot of QC complaints about the M51, and about NAD M products in general.
Do you need 24/192 MF? If not, a Levinson 360S is now around $2600, which is a pretty damn good deal on a $7500 quad PCM1704UK DAC. The 360S has long been one of my favs, and you can of course add asynch USB for a few hundred bucks. Series 1 Berkeley Alphas are also now in that $2600 range, and the middling hardware is a little more excusable at that price.
The Burl DAC is $2500. The reason I'm so interested is that it's supposed to be a very warm and very analog sounding DAC, like an Audio Note minus the tubes. The opposite of the Benchmark type sound which I can't stand.
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I never understand how people could like any audio GD crap hahaha
WHAT!? YOU SUCK!
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/
Why don't you like the Audio-gd stuff?
I only have the NFB-16, usb powered dac/amp.
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Well done John Kenny. I'm not surprised people have said the JKDAC32 is way better than the M2Tech Young.
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I never understand how people could like any audio GD crap hahaha
WHAT!? YOU SUCK!
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/
Why don't you like the Audio-gd stuff?
I only have the NFB-16, usb powered dac/amp.
I'm not a fan of Audio GD stuff either.
I have the Lite Dac 83 which you can find on JD's dac index.
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The Pico and a simple CD-player...
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I never understand how people could like any audio GD crap hahaha
WHAT!? YOU SUCK!
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/the-darko-dac-index/
Why don't you like the Audio-gd stuff?
I only have the NFB-16, usb powered dac/amp.
hehehe I've owned the c2c Amp and tried an NFB11 dac/amp. Clinical is the first term that comes to mind for the 11 and typical boom chak sound for the c2c. boosted bass and boosted treble(recessed mids) then a chop off at the top most frequencies making them lose air.
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I'm not a fan of Audio GD stuff either.
I have the Lite Dac 83 which you can find on JD's dac index.
Where did you get it and how much? I would like to buy one, or the NAD... I spend too much money...
hehehe I've owned the c2c Amp and tried an NFB11 dac/amp. Clinical is the first term that comes to mind for the 11 and typical boom chak sound for the c2c. boosted bass and boosted treble(recessed mids) then a chop off at the top most frequencies making them lose air.
Fair enough, but isn't that the amp included too? Or did you mean the DAC chopped the tops off too?
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I think the big problem is with their amps but since the nfb 11 is designed to be used as a dac/amp then I couldn't really give impressions of it as a standalone dac.
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I'm a pretty big noob when it comes to audio, I just buy things and maybe listen to them once a month. :P
Looking at the Lite DAC-83, I will need a transport to get that going and I'm not too sure what to look for. :P
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Computer or CD player? There's a whole bunch of asynchronous converters in the $400-600 range. One option is the new Channel Islands DAC. It can be used both as a digital-digital converter or DAC, so you can start off with it in DAC mode and then switch it to being a converter with a higher-end DAC later on.
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Sweet :)p2
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The transport is for the Lite DAC-83.
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Right... but what type of transport are we talking, computer or CD player, or something like a SBT?
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OH! I only use the best, so Macbook Pros. ;)
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You're going to want something with asynchronous USB then. The JKMK3 converter would be a good choice, it's 100% battery powered, so you can use the Empirical Short Block with it. That will cut the Vbus line from the USB cable, and should eliminate any difference (or at least most of the difference) from running the MacBook on battery power vs. the SMPS.
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I bought my DAC83 used but it was from COEM Audio. John has them for $1485 delivered.
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If I connect a very low jitter transport (says audiophilleo 2, 2.6ps listed spec) to a middling receiver chip (say CS8412, max 200ps listed spec), would the resulting jitter be somewhere in between, same as the transport or same as the receiver? Or it's more complicated than that?
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I bought my DAC83 used but it was from COEM Audio. John has them for $1485 delivered.
The DIY site or whatever it is based in Hong Kong has it for $1200 or so, maybe I should bring one back when I go there this October. :P BUT 15Kg!
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If I connect a very low jitter transport (says audiophilleo 2, 2.6ps listed spec) to a middling receiver chip (say CS8412, max 200ps listed spec), would the resulting jitter be somewhere in between, same as the transport or same as the receiver? Or it's more complicated than that?
Once the inherent jitter of the source gets low enough, you're going to run into the limitations of the receiver chip. There's nothing you can really do about that, if you just love the sound of a PCM63P-K DAC you're just going to have to put up with the sucky digital receivers that go along with them.
The input stages of these DACs are not good at rejecting high levels of source jitter. When you add that on top of the mediocre performance of the CS8412, the results are very disappointing. I had that experience with my now departed EAD DAC.
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You're going to want something with asynchronous USB then. The JKMK3 converter would be a good choice, it's 100% battery powered, so you can use the Empirical Short Block with it. That will cut the Vbus line from the USB cable, and should eliminate any difference (or at least most of the difference) from running the MacBook on battery power vs. the SMPS.
I do like the idea a lot.
Do you think a good modern DAC would eliminate the need for this? Provided that it can be input-ed with USB.
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You'd want to use a DAC with a USB receiver that is self powered. Many of them use the Vbus line to power the USB input, and with a notebook running on a SMPS that means lots of DC ripple and a very noisy ground. The AQVOX or a Vaunix Lab Brick are better than nothing, but the best way to do it is to have a self powered USB input and cut the Vbus line entirely.
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Gungnir available for order if anyone was interested in that one.
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You'd want to use a DAC with a USB receiver that is self powered. Many of them use the Vbus line to power the USB input, and with a notebook running on a SMPS that means lots of DC ripple and a very noisy ground. The AQVOX or a Vaunix Lab Brick are better than nothing, but the best way to do it is to have a self powered USB input and cut the Vbus line entirely.
Fair enough, so the Dacport LX wouldn't be good (bus powered)?
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You'd want to use a DAC with a USB receiver that is self powered. Many of them use the Vbus line to power the USB input, and with a notebook running on a SMPS that means lots of DC ripple and a very noisy ground. The AQVOX or a Vaunix Lab Brick are better than nothing, but the best way to do it is to have a self powered USB input and cut the Vbus line entirely.
Fair enough, so the Dacport LX wouldn't be good (bus powered)?
No, and the adaptive mode USB only compounds the problem. Adaptive is much more sensitive to the input signal than asynchronous mode. Centrance really hasn't kept pace with USB tech. You'd be way better off with the JKDAC32. Use the Short Block with that and you should get some seriously good sound.
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Dave, have you tried the Femto? A dealer has offered me a free trial and I'm wondering if it's worth the cost of shipping 50 pounds there and back.
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I'm afraid I haven't. From what I've heard it's in the same league as DACs like the Pandora, Meitner, Bricasti, etc. but it also costs the same as those DACs. One thing I'd like to know about it is whether the USB input is isolated, and where it gets its power from. The volume control is the typical 32-bit digital type, nothing special, and not good enough to replace a top quality linestage. If the USB input is not isolated or self powered that would be disappointing, I wouldn't want to have to spend another $1000+ on a converter to have USB done properly on a USB DAC. That's the rub I have with the Meitner and EMM DAC2X. I've heard very good things about the Aesthetix as a DAC, but its USB input seems to be similarly compromised.
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Would anyone be able to give subjective listening differences between the W4S and Anedio DAC using balanced outputs? I've pretty much narrowed down my choices to these two, but I haven't heard either of them. I know that good DACs are supposed to be as close to neutral sounding as possible, but I think subjective differences in sound are still possible hence my question.
Dave, would you be able to give comment on the Dacport's measurements? Specifically on the 91pp jitter measurement which is better than a lot of the budget async DACs like the HRT ones. Wondering if the implementation of the USB receiver might have sacrificed performance somewhere else.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/centrance-dacport-usb-headphone-amplifier-measurements
Also, I'm wondering if I'll be able to get significantly better sound out of the dacport if I switched to an external power supply, since it should lead to lower distortion numbers. The distortion measurements are pretty good as is. Hope that made sense.
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Dave, would you be able to give comment on the Dacport's measurements? Specifically on the 91pp jitter measurement which is better than a lot of the budget async DACs like the HRT ones. Wondering if the implementation of the USB receiver might have sacrificed performance somewhere else.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/centrance-dacport-usb-headphone-amplifier-measurements
The HRT DACs are just not very good. That's still an impressive result though unquestionably, whatever type of jitter rejection is used at the conversion stage is definitely doing its job. Still being adaptive mode will mean sensitivities to things like USB cables that would be largely eliminated with asynchronous mode.
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wow. I was chatting with LFF during our weekly DIY build session this morning (he's putting together a pimped BIII, I some casework for my 'Wire' amp), and made the statement that the DAC is probably the component (beyond mastering) that should get the most attention. I've built all together 6 DAC's now; 3 of them extreme builds (DSD support, Paul Hynes Regs throughout, shunts, etc.) and I can tell you flat out: a top tier DAC can make a huge difference. Here's a short story:
Brought my Minute EL34 SE to the Studio meet in Santa Monica awhile back - it was sourced by a Bifrost (a good value DAC). It was generally well received driving my HE-6's, but jaws didn't drop. I brought the same chain to the LAX meeting but swapped out Bifrost for a BIII build with DSD support, <3pps jitter coming from the receiver, Paul Hynes regs (separate +/- for the IV, separate for the DAC, PH shunt regs on the Sabre), and some of the same peeps who listened in Santa Monica were blown away.
Now the Minute's a great amp (especially with the HE-6), but it took a serious DAC to bring out the best in it. Add to that some well/digitally mastered SACD rips, and you have something very special. So to me (IMO, etc.) - I'd tend to your source, get a great DAC, a decent amp, and some good cans.
The amp will generally have more influence over the 'voice' of your music (fast, slow, thick, thin) than a DAC (the exception being some NOS/Tube DACs). Nail down the parts of your chain that are about faithful reproduction, then pursue the 'voice' you like the best. My 2 cents.
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I was blown away when going from a "prosumer" soundcard/interface, to a higher end DAC last year. I'd been using Echo Audio cards for about ten years (first a MIA PCI card, then an Audiofire 12, both with a PC), but last year switched to an RME HDSPe AES PCIe card (just an AES interface, no conversion), with external Crookwood converters. I have a Crookwood C1 monitor controller, headphone amp, analogue VU meter, 2 x DACs and 1 x ADC combo for my mastering studio. It's been a real revelation! The HD600s have never sounded better. It's also great to be using the same DAC to feed the monitor chain and the analogue mastering chain. Less second guessing!
My friend keeps trying to convince me to upgrade to an HD800 with a QES Labs amps and balanced cables though. Should be going round his place to check them out some time soon. Will take my HD600's to compare.
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Boo...balanced. Stick to single-ended for headphone driving IMHO.
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He reckons balanced sounds much better with that amp/can combo, but I've yet to hear any balanced phones! Always wondered about it myself...
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The Ayre QB-9 is outdated and outmatched
Really. By what, pray tell?
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The Ayre QB-9 is outdated and outmatched
Really. By what, pray tell?
Anedio, Calyx, probably the NAD and Auralic DACs as well. There's some heavy hitters in the $1500-2000 league, and the QB-9 just doesn't make sense anymore with it's nearly $3K price tag.
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Honestly, I've given up on getting super picky about DACs with just headphones. I'll probably get more into it when I have the opportunity for speakers, but even with the BHSE and First Watt, I'm not getting enough of a difference for me to get that worked up about. I can hear the difference, but it's about on par with IC differences. It seems best just to get a good $1-2k DAC like the Anedio (I haven't heard one, but sources I generally trust seem positive enough about it) and ensure that you have a low jitter source and sensible cabling.
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The Ayre QB-9 is outdated and outmatched
Really. By what, pray tell?
Anedio, Calyx, probably the NAD and Auralic DACs as well. There's some heavy hitters in the $1500-2000 league, and the QB-9 just doesn't make sense anymore with it's nearly $3K price tag.
The Anedio is interesting but unavailable. Jon iverson's otherwise highly favorable review of the NAD says that it doesn't quite measure up to the Ayre. The Calyx seems like it would be a contendah if I were in the market for a DAC right now, but the Ayre still wins because it has one unique advantage: I already own it.
If I bring anything in for audition any time soon, it will be the Invicta. But I'm not feeling any upgrade lust right now, and you haven't convinced me that I should. Thanks for the info, though. :)p4
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He wasn't trying to convince you to upgrade. He made a statement about the Ayre, and you chimed in with your first post asking him to qualify his opinion - mind you he had no idea you even owned the Ayre at the time. I envy you your lack of upgraditis. The issue with the Ayre is that its USB only - and USB receivers, FGPA, and dithering have all progressed since the QB-9 was released. The Invicta is on another level, especially in it's feature set, but if they're features you don't particularly need then no point for lust.
It's a fine DAC, and if you don't feel the need to upgrade, no one's telling you that you need to.
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So I bought the e20 for a trial. I'll upload some pictures later (although the website pictures will be better quality).
As this is the second DAC I've demo'd in my own home with my own gear and my own music, I only really have the Bifrost to compare it to (I have the ODAC too, but I prefer the Bifrost).
I found that the biggest things that differed between the two DACs, both feeding my HE5-LEs through my Super 7 is that:
- Instrument separation and soundstage were better
- Highs were less fatiguing on tracks where it's a problem with the 5-LEs
- Sound was more 'coherent' from bottom to top
- Bass was crisper and 'popped' better, whatever that means. It was more visceral.
The main problem I found was that I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless I played with one right after the other. The improvements were so small that, to my ears, the upgrade wasn't worth the money and you're paying more for the feature set (DSD, 24/384 playback, preamp, etc..) than the sound itself.
It sounded better, sure. Noticeably better. But not so much that it would make a difference unless I was A/B'ing.
So I returned it after my trial period was up and will look for an upgrade in headphones and tubes next, rather than a DAC. Maybe if I go to the speaker route I'll come back to the e20 (or the invicta) when I need the features it provides.
Just my small, inexperienced opinions I felt like sharing.
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The Anedio is interesting but unavailable. Jon iverson's otherwise highly favorable review of the NAD says that it doesn't quite measure up to the Ayre. The Calyx seems like it would be a contendah if I were in the market for a DAC right now, but the Ayre still wins because it has one unique advantage: I already own it.
If I bring anything in for audition any time soon, it will be the Invicta. But I'm not feeling any upgrade lust right now, and you haven't convinced me that I should. Thanks for the info, though. :)p4
Yeah the D2 sells out right quick. Not perfect, but by all accounts stellar for anywhere near its price point. The Calyx isn't perfect either, but also very highly regarded particularly with the CLPS. The Auralic I know less about, but the input switching issue is stupid, it should just have buttons like everybody else.
CIAudio is working on some sort of flagship DAC to go above their new Transient MKII converter/DAC, which will also be priced around the $2K point. The Transient itself is quite interesting because when powered by an external supply, you can cut the USB power line entirely. VERY few of the XMOS based converters can pull off that trick, the Berkeley Alpha for example cannot, even at more than double the price.
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My blunt take on DACs these days, which anyone is welcome to disagree with.
After the old, great, non-high-res vintage DACs, such as the Parasound I have here were replaced with Sigma-Delta chipped varieties, things have gone down hill sonically, leading to a market of average-sounding DACs that have conditioned people to think they need to spend $8k for decent reproduction.
The Sabre-based DACs MUST have an excellent design with high-end clock to just work at all. With a mediocre set-up (such as with the Calyx DAC 24/192) the music is detailed, but sound flat. Using better power than just USB and the Audiophilleo + Pure Power it sounds excellent IMO, far better than when using the in-built USB does. I think most people who review it spin CDs for the most part and are behind when it comes to computer rigs (unlike myself, where I refuse to use CDs if at all possible) and very likely even their highly expensive transports are rubbish compared to the top USB converters now, as every one commented that the USB input to the Calyx sounded better than their multi-thousand-dollar transports.
After going through a few ES9018-based DACs, they are definitely only worth it IMO if they are genuinely high-end kit. I did have an NFB-11 and even after the clocks were replaced it sounded a bit flat. The better USB and whatnot in the latest version likely has made significant improvements. The Dragonfly (which uses a cheaper Sabre chip IIRC) manages to do a good job without making instruments sound dead, though I'd take the NFB-16 over it, as I listen to a lot of jazz and classical and the small differences matter to me. I'm going to compare both to an ODAC/O2 combo in Tokyo next month. Given the new hardware available, it shouldn't be so expensive to build a decent USB-powered DAC or DAC and amp for relatively little money now. It is going to be the new big segment I reckon.
I personally find almost everything I've listened to that uses the latest Sigma Delta BB chips: PCM1792, 3 and 5 to sound unnatural and awful. I've been a Luxman fan for a long time, but when I tried their DA-100 and DA-200, even numerous times, I was shocked that they sounded like total shit to me. I know it sounds crazy to be talking about DA converter chips alone, but in every case we're talking about equipment from companies who know how to do build a component properly. Regardless, the DA-100's output is directly from the chips, which have built-in OPAMPs, so there is no question that the issue has something to do with the digital conversion.
The cheapest DACs I've tried that sounds natural (ignoring NOS and vintage) are the NFB-16 and Fostex HP-P1, which uses an AKM DAC. If I was listening to music on plastic and not from my computer I'd keep my Parasound, but I've now got too many high-res files mixed into various playlists.
I reckon the NAD may be one of the few, if not only genuinely innovative DAC out there (excepting possibly those crazy software-based Chord DACs and the super-crazy Lampizator guy's efforts). Unfortunately NAD doesn't make 100V versions of it so I don't reckon I'll get to hear one unless I visit another country.
These are the DACs I'd take a consider or take a chance on right now, with reasons, from lowest price to highest, approximately, not taking anything else into account, such as balanced or SE or other factors:
NFB-16 (Transportable, most natural-sounding)
Dragonfly (ultra-portability - going to take this with my MacBook Air on the plane with IEMs)
Vintage PCM1704 or PCM63 based DACs from the usual companies that made them with over-built power supplies.
Schiit (any of their DACs. Never tried them, but the right people are saying positive things about them for me to take a chance)
Metrum Octave (If you want the slightly more mellow NOS sound and/or play high-res files, which will negate the need for oversampling anyway, but don't bother if you are just going to use the optical input. Use a good USB converter with it)
Lavry DA-11 (I had the DA-10 and tried the DA-11 in Tokyo. Hyper-clear kind of sound. Would take it over the DAC 1 any day)
Anedio D2 (Would take a chance on this. If it is Sabre done right, it will be excellent. HP amp and pre are a bonus)
NAD M51
Audio-gd Master 7 (Supposed to be more detailed than my Reference 7.1 because of improvements to the digital input)
Add $600-$2.5k (or not) as you wish for a high-end USB converter to the Metrum Octave and higher (in price) for best results (except maybe the NAD, as it is too radical a design to know if it would be improved by one).
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Currawong, what about the PWD or the W4S DAC2?
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Unfortunately NAD doesn't make 100V versions of it so I don't reckon I'll get to hear one unless I visit another country.
I'm pretty sure the M51 accepts 100-240V at 50-60hz. Unless I missed something?
http://nadelectronics.com/download.php?111221101428-NAD_M51_DataSheet.pdf|Data%20Sheet%20-%20M51%20Direct%20Digital%20DAC
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Also not a fan of the Buffalo. It's one of the few that sounds wrong to my ears, though I haven't heard the Buff 2 or 3.
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Currawong, what about the PWD or the W4S DAC2?
I have zero idea about the W4S. Seems to be popular amongst online mag reviewers. After all the nice things they wrote about the Calyx DAC's USB input, I can't say I'd be inclined to go with anything that is popular with them.
I'm pretty sure the M51 accepts 100-240V at 50-60hz. Unless I missed something?
http://nadelectronics.com/download.php?111221101428-NAD_M51_DataSheet.pdf|Data%20Sheet%20-%20M51%20Direct%20Digital%20DAC
Ahh, so it does! When I checked, I was looking at the picture of the back of one that didn't say 100V, only 110V or 115V. Thanks for pointing that out. I did email NAD though and they said they couldn't help me about trying one in Japan.
Also not a fan of the Buffalo. It's one of the few that sounds wrong to my ears, though I haven't heard the Buff 2 or 3.
I'd take a guess that they have the same issue as I had with the Calyx: It needs a kickass digital input, maybe an Exadevices board or similar that has ultra-low jitter and outputs I2S directly. I'm tempted to build one just to experiment.
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We did a side by side between the PWD and NAD M51. It was close but the PWD was all the NAD was and just a bit more. Forget if it was a mk1 or 2 at the time.
I'm looking forward to the Schiit Statement DAC. All I can say is it's not sigma delta. Despite making good sounding budget sigma delta DACs, Schiit does not really like them. Either of those Schiitheads. :)p17
Wasn't really planning on having multiple DACs but looks like I will eventually have a PWD, Buff 3, and Statement. >.<
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The Sabre-based DACs MUST have an excellent design with high-end clock to just work at all. With a mediocre set-up (such as with the Calyx DAC 24/192) the music is detailed, but sound flat. Using better power than just USB and the Audiophilleo + Pure Power it sounds excellent IMO, far better than when using the in-built USB does. I think most people who review it spin CDs for the most part and are behind when it comes to computer rigs (unlike myself, where I refuse to use CDs if at all possible) and very likely even their highly expensive transports are rubbish compared to the top USB converters now, as every one commented that the USB input to the Calyx sounded better than their multi-thousand-dollar transports.
I personally find almost everything I've listened to that uses the latest Sigma Delta BB chips: PCM1792, 3 and 5 to sound unnatural and awful. I've been a Luxman fan for a long time, but when I tried their DA-100 and DA-200, even numerous times, I was shocked that they sounded like total shit to me. I know it sounds crazy to be talking about DA converter chips alone, but in every case we're talking about equipment from companies who know how to do build a component properly. Regardless, the DA-100's output is directly from the chips, which have built-in OPAMPs, so there is no question that the issue has something to do with the digital conversion.
Add $600-$2.5k (or not) as you wish for a high-end USB converter to the Metrum Octave and higher (in price) for best results (except maybe the NAD, as it is too radical a design to know if it would be improved by one).
The Sabre is very tricky to implement properly. It definitely needs good power, good clocks, and a good output stage. Cut corners anywhere, and you end up with mediocre results. I'm unsure of just how good the Calyx's clocks are, but I think a major part of the problem is there is no isolation. Driving it straight from the USB port is just asking for poor sound. It allows the Calyx to technically be portable without the need for batteries, but you end up with the worst possible DC power. The included wall-wart is better, but you're still feeding the ground noise for the source straight into the DAC. Even the optional linear supply can't fix that problem. Something like the Off-Ramp or the Transient MKII where the USB power line can be cut off entirely and the ground fed through a choke like Empirical's Short Block should improve the performance substantially.
The Anedio's USB port connects to a U2 converter that sits inside the case. On the positive side it has galvanic isolation, on the negative side it has to be converted internally to S/Pdif which connects to the D2's WM8805 digital receiver with a short length of unshielded wire. Assuming it's literally just a U2 with the BNC connector removed, that means the USB circuitry is bus powered. The clocks used are decent, not amazing. Still, there's only so much you can expect for $1500.
Totally agree on the BB PCM179x chips - crap. The AKM4399, AD1955, and WM8741 all seem to produce consistently good results in well designed DACs, and I would take any one of those before anything with a BB chip in it. The Sabre is much more "try before you buy". I also don't like Cirrus DACs, and I frown on anything with the CS8416 receiver.
There's two DACs I would suggest considering in addition to the ones already on your list. Neither of these have USB inputs, but both are VERY highly regarded in professional circles. Combined with an Off-Ramp or Transient, these could be considerable performers, although admittedly the investment is then $3500-4000, not chump change by any means. That's Invicta money, so they'd have to be extremely good to be worth it.
(http://www.kmraudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/2/b2-dac-main.gif)
(http://digitalaudioservice.de/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/_/7/_7576244903/forssell---mdac-2-digitalaudioservice-32.jpg)
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Currawong, what about the PWD or the W4S DAC2?
The W4S is crap. The USB input is some sort of proprietary tech that's WAY inferior to XMOS, M2Tech, and other common asynch implementations.
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Currawong, what about the PWD or the W4S DAC2?
The W4S is crap. The USB input is some sort of proprietary tech that's WAY inferior to XMOS, M2Tech, and other common asynch implementations.
What are your favorites?
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We did a side by side between the PWD and NAD M51. It was close but the PWD was all the NAD was and just a bit more. Forget if it was a mk1 or 2 at the time.
I'm looking forward to the Schiit Statement DAC. All I can say is it's not sigma delta. Despite making good sounding budget sigma delta DACs, Schiit does not really like them. Either of those Schiitheads. :)p17
Wasn't really planning on having multiple DACs but looks like I will eventually have a PWD, Buff 3, and Statement. >.<
Forgive my incompetence, but what other technologies are there other than sigma delta on modern DACs that could potentially be implemented in here?
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The Forssell and the Burl are both great, but in listening tests the Crookwood was almost on a par, so I went for that, as it is considerably cheaper. The only downside being you need to order it as part of a monitor controller system which can be expensive. The Crookwood DAC is what's used in the DACS Clarity Headmaster.
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We did a side by side between the PWD and NAD M51. It was close but the PWD was all the NAD was and just a bit more. Forget if it was a mk1 or 2 at the time.
I'm looking forward to the Schiit Statement DAC. All I can say is it's not sigma delta. Despite making good sounding budget sigma delta DACs, Schiit does not really like them. Either of those Schiitheads. :)p17
Wasn't really planning on having multiple DACs but looks like I will eventually have a PWD, Buff 3, and Statement. >.<
Forgive my incompetence, but what other technologies are there other than sigma delta on modern DACs that could potentially be implemented in here?
An R2R ladder DAC.
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Forgive my incompetence, but what other technologies are there other than sigma delta on modern DACs that could potentially be implemented in here?
As far I know there's either serial (one bit) and parallel (multibit) processing of digital signal. Multibit DACs must use resistor ladders for signal processing and therefore are more expensive and difficult manufacture. A special case are multibit DACs that use discrete resistor ladders and those are even more difficult to build. Imagine something like a dozen stepped attenuator boards with custom made precision resistors that must not drift under t°.
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/totaldac/10.jpg)
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A la http://goo.gl/ZI9E9 ?
Any consumer brands out there that do this right now?
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There are a few modern consumer DACs doing this now. The Metrum Octave is one fairly popular cheapish option. 6Moons is pushing the Totaldac, which means stay away from it. The one that interests me is the MSB Analog Dac, but I'm going to wait until its available on the used market.
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Yeah, I find the Octave to be interesting. However most of the impressions I've read call it natural and warm. Not sure if warm is the quality I'm looking for in a DAC. At least not in my primary listening device.
Also nowadays the DIY scene in general has got too lazy to come up with good complex DAC devices. I mean in signal conversion there is no Gainclone or the Wire. Lately I've been trawling the Russian/post-soviet bloc DIY forums and honestly I was mindblown. Sure, the headphone scene is still in its diapers but DAC and speaker designs are vastly more complex (and interesting) compared to most of the Diyaudio stuff. Don't get me wrong- there are good designs at diyaudio but most of the talk is about more pedestrian designs or rather- the parroting of these designs. Here's an example of what the Russians are up to-
(http://www.lynxaudio.narod.ru/images/Lynx_D32.JPG)
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Here's an example of what the Russians are up to-
(http://www.lynxaudio.narod.ru/images/Lynx_D32.JPG)
The Russians are making an overly complex design based on twenty-year-old DAC chips? Sounds about right
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There are a few modern consumer DACs doing this now. The Metrum Octave is one fairly popular cheapish option. 6Moons is pushing the Totaldac, which means stay away from it. The one that interests me is the MSB Analog Dac, but I'm going to wait until its available on the used market.
I've also seen some PCM1704 DACs claiming 192Khz capability. That means reducing the amount of oversampling from the normal 8 to 4 to stay within the 1704's maximum frequency limit. Supposedly the 1704 sounds considerably worse with 4X OS, so I would probably avoid those DACs.
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They're using dual double crowns, which are quite rare and expensive these days. I don't know how they expect to make this in any kind of volume.
If you're looking for crazy overkill, check out the 200-something matched vishays in the TotalDAC.
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There are a few modern consumer DACs doing this now. The Metrum Octave is one fairly popular cheapish option. 6Moons is pushing the Totaldac, which means stay away from it. The one that interests me is the MSB Analog Dac, but I'm going to wait until its available on the used market.
I've also seen some PCM1704 DACs claiming 192Khz capability. That means reducing the amount of oversampling from the normal 8 to 4 to stay within the 1704's maximum frequency limit. Supposedly the 1704 sounds considerably worse with 4X OS, so I would probably avoid those DACs.
My Cantata does 24/192 and it uses dual 1704's. I don't notice any degradation, but then again my hirez is about 90% 24/96 and 88.1. I'll have to test it out more thoroughly some time.
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I asked Steve from Empirical about the TotalDAC and he was surprised by some of their choices. This was his comment:
"Is curious to me, the choice of the Vishay resistors. These are great for analog, but the goal here is accuracy, not so much reduction in inductance that is the benefit of the Vishays. I would have chosen .1% thin-film surface-mount resistors for this application."
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The Russians are making an overly complex design based on twenty-year-old DAC chips? Sounds about right
This guy has many designs available online. Some based on newer delta-sigmas, others on older multibits. Every design has a paper that explains what technological or acoustic problems he intends to tackle and how/why he has chosen to do so. Additionally there are schematics and measurements provided along with short subjective evaluations of sound. Maybe someday I'll translate some of them in English.
One of the local guys repeated one of the DACs and got pretty similar (and respectable) measurements out of it. http://www.elfaforums.lv/threads/5310-DAC-AD1853-(DUAL-MONO)-LYNX-D29V3
All in all my rant was that the DIY community isn't pushing the technological boundries of what's possible. I'm not saying that complex means good, then again I don't subscribe to the "only the most complex can comprehend the simple" mantra. I choose what I build according to what I can learn from building, not by how much money can I save compared to commercial offerings.
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My Cantata does 24/192 and it uses dual 1704's. I don't notice any degradation, but then again my hirez is about 90% 24/96 and 88.1. I'll have to test it out more thoroughly some time.
Interesting. How would you say that compares to some of the top tier delta sigma DACs? I'm not familiar with it at all.
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All in all my rant was that the DIY community isn't pushing the technological boundries of what's possible. I'm not saying that complex means good, then again I don't subscribe to the "only the most complex can comprehend the simple" mantra. I choose what I build according to what I can learn from building, not by how much money can I save compared to commercial offerings.
Cool and I meant no disrespect to the design or the complexity. It just hit me as a stereotypically Russian approach to a situation, kind of like seeing an in-dash DVD player mounted in a forty-year-old Volga.
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Interesting. How would you say that compares to some of the top tier delta sigma DACs? I'm not familiar with it at all.
The only other DAC I have in-house is the Invicta, which is obviously a S-D as it was designed by Dustin Forman, who also designed the 9018. The Cantata is the more musical of the two, the Invicta the more accurate. I use the Cantata for my Stax rig and the Invicta with dynamics. I've owned or auditioned a few other S-D Dacs, but haven't had them for a while so don't feel comfortable making comparisons. Suffice to say the Invicta and Cantata were the best I've heard (and no, I haven't heard the Overdrive SE.)
I had a Femto in-house late last week and it did not measure up to either DAC in either musicality or accuracy. Sounds like a bust to me.
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That's too bad. Pricing the Femto at parity with DACs like the Meitner and the Pandora may have been a mistake.
Empirical will be showing the Overdrive at RMAF with fully maxxed out Vapor Sound Cirrus monitors (blacks I think, not the new Accuton based Cirrus white). The sound should be awesome. Vapor is going nuts with new speakers, like 5 of them all at once.
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Have any of you guys A/B tested the Berkeley against Invicta? I won't be changing DACs anytime soon, but I'm just curious since the Invicta was on my top-5 list before I went with the Berkeley.
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Never compared them side to side, but I did have the newest version on loan for a couple weeks. It is a very good DAC, but there was a hint of that digital glare that I don't really know how to describe, and I chiefly use USB these days and don't think you need two boxes to do it properly these days. The current Alpha is really keeping up its value though.
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Hopefully we get better low-jitter USB implementations as time goes on. It's a shame that the Alpha needs a quality USB converter to sound its best, and I think that's probably colored some Alpha impressions. Another interesting thing is changing between filters 1.1 and 2.1 on the Alpha, as the people who've heard my Alpha are pretty split down the middle on which filter they like more.
It'll be interesting to see how the DAC wars continue. I personally prefer the Wolfson over the Saber32, as the Saber32 implementations I've heard sound a little etched.
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USB is down to remarkably low jitter as is. The Femto claims to obviously be in the Femtoseconds, as is the MSB analog DAC.
The Invicta used to have just two filters, and now has a whole host of filters that compete with those of the Bricasti M1.
I'm personally a believer in the source sounding neutral and accurate and doing any mucking about at the amp or transducer stage. I heard a Lampizator for instance, and it just didn't even get a chance because of how much it colored the sound.
The DAC wars will continue mostly on the computer front, with better FGPA, better SD chips, better USB receivers, etc. The thing is that almost none of these companies (save a couple) use anything other than currently available parts made by big companies. So they all have the same bottlenecks more or less, and will all reach the next level of performance only as new parts and technologies become available through others.
There's always room for innovation though - for instance, Wavelength was way ahead of the game with Rankin's asynch tech.
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I don't think any headphones are good enough for uber amps/dacs to matter. :&
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That's true, and why I decided to stick in the price range I did.
A headphone setup could use 100% of my Cantata's potential, but only 60% of a K-01. I did the math and it would use only about 20% of the potential of a dCs Vivaldi stack.
Considering diminishing returns, the K-01 only gives you 10% above the Cantata, and the Vivaldi gives you maybe the extra 5% above that. Except since we're using headphones, the extra 100K only brings us up 20% of 15%, for a net gain of 3% in sound quality at a cost of $110,000. I'd rather spend that money on a better camera to take sharper pictures of my watch and car to post online.
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That's true, and why I decided to stick in the price range I did.
A headphone setup could use 100% of my Cantata's potential, but only 60% of a K-01. I did the math and it would use only about 20% of the potential of a dCs Vivaldi stack.
Considering diminishing returns, the K-01 only gives you 10% above the Cantata, and the Vivaldi gives you maybe the extra 5% above that. Except since we're using headphones, the extra 100K only brings us up 20% of 15%, for a net gain of 3% in sound quality at a cost of $110,000. I'd rather spend that money on a better camera to take sharper pictures of my watch and car to post online.
Hasselblad, of course....
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Hopefully we get better low-jitter USB implementations as time goes on. It's a shame that the Alpha needs a quality USB converter to sound its best, and I think that's probably colored some Alpha impressions. Another interesting thing is changing between filters 1.1 and 2.1 on the Alpha, as the people who've heard my Alpha are pretty split down the middle on which filter they like more.
It'll be interesting to see how the DAC wars continue. I personally prefer the Wolfson over the Saber32, as the Saber32 implementations I've heard sound a little etched.
What I find distressing is that many manufacturers are still not paying attention to USB power and grounding. The USB input on the hyper expensive EMM DAC2X is not isolated, just like the Meitner DAC. Use it with a laptop and a switch mode power supply and all of that garbage will go straight into the DAC. IMO if you're asking $1,000 or more, your USB circuitry should be self powered and isolated. Period.
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My brain is full of fuck.
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I'm thinking of taking a risk and getting this:
http://www.ebay.ph/itm/Valab-WM8741-24bit-192k-USB-DAC-Dual-WM8741-Balanced-XLR-Output-Black-Face-/280936060112#ht_2442wt_902
Can't find feedback on it anywhere but the measurements seem great. I can't find jitter measurements though, and I don't know what type of USB implementation it has. The internals look pretty though. Any thoughts on the information provided?
Edit: more pictures http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=15057452905
An alternative might be the NFB-17: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/NFB17/NFB17EN.htm
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Ive owned the basic valab before. Hard hitting and immediate sound but lacks some air. The noise was unnaceptable though. For the price and the moddable nature, they are pretty cool
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Ive owned the basic valab before. Hard hitting and immediate sound but lacks some air. The noise was unnaceptable though. For the price and the moddable nature, they are pretty cool
Was it the NOS DAC with the 8 TD1543 (iirc) chips? I'd expect this new DAC to sound very different, but that basic DAC was how I found out about Valab.
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Yes that was the one
Heres my old valab dac here
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii41/donunus/DSCI0564.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii41/donunus/DSCI0567.jpg)
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I don't think any headphones are good enough for uber amps/dacs to matter. :&
I used to say that, but to some degree have proven myself wrong, at least with the latest 'stats and orthos.
After reading all the reviews of the Calyx, followed by my experiences, I'm pretty disappointed (though not after adding $1k+ of low-jitter and all that digital front end to it). There is a lot of talk about DACs that sound like a good vinyl set-up. I think the problem is that these people who write the reviews accept the digital "glare" and other issues as being ok and normal, even in a high-end DAC. I find it totally unacceptable.
I can't multi-quote here (that I can see) so I'm just going to post some shotgun comments:
Metrum Octave: It does sound a bit mellow, so someone who would prefer something more in the direction of a Lavry or Benchmark wont like it. I'm picky about instruments sounding real and not "digital" so I like it. It is too mellow in some combinations. It is always possible to use a program to do high-quality up-sampling and feed the DAC with that for more clarity. I reckon the Hex will be a huge giant-killer.
NFB-17: I have the NFB-16 and it is excellent. I strongly suspect it is the new USB implementation that nails it. Best WM8741 implementation I've heard so far (though I haven't heard the PWD for more than a few minutes at a meet). That is it really just a low-end portable is crazy. Am taking it to Tokyo with me to compare to the ODAC etc. to to make sure I'm not crazy, but for something that basically sounds like a more musical Dragonfly I find it immensely satisfying.
TotalDAC: Best set-up I've ever heard was from a hidden DAC built in much the same way at the Bakoon table in Tokyo. TOTALLY ruined me for the rest of the meet. Couldn't switch to another track while listening it was so glorious. It doesn't surprise me that all the top players use similar tech.
Dave: Trying more obscure pro DACs would be interesting. My ULN-2 is AKM-based and sounds lovely, just lacking in detail and configuring it is a PITA, but it proves that pro DACs don't all sound like the Benchmark. My dream DAC for a while was a Lavry Gold.
Jitter: it's not just jitter, but S/PDIF implementation as well from what I have come to understand. I think USB may be going through the issues that S/PDIF did in the past.
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I don't think any headphones are good enough for uber amps/dacs to matter. :&
I think DACs and amps probably matter more with headphones. Most headphones suck in a lot of ways but they generally wipe the floor with speakers in non linear distortion.
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I don't think any headphones are good enough for uber amps/dacs to matter. :&
I think DACs and amps probably matter more with headphones. Most headphones suck in a lot of ways but they generally wipe the floor with speakers in non linear distortion.
Problem is speakers still wipe the floor with headphones with linear distortion and imaging :P
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And decay. ;)
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Problem is speakers still wipe the floor with headphones with linear distortion and imaging :P
But how often do DACs or amps have issues serious issues with either of those?
And decay. ;)
Well that can certainly be a deal breaker. Nothing fixes that either way though.
With even TOTL speakers it doesn't take much more than entry level gear before the NLD and time domain issues from the speakers overwhelm that of the electronics.
Of course all that does assume that you believe all those numbers are good for something.
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I think I'm going to get the NAD m51 because it's cheap(er) in Australia.
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If anyone has spent time with the T+A DAC 8, would be interested in your thoughts--especially if you've listened to the headphone output with HD 800.
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The W4S is crap. The USB input is some sort of proprietary tech that's WAY inferior to XMOS, M2Tech, and other common asynch implementations.
True and not true. The DAC-2 is actually an m2tech OEM HiFace implementation. Which like the stand alone USB HiFace is crap compared to others. So um ya, W4S usb is crap but its m2tech crap ;)
I've recently pulled the trigger on the AP2 since I also recently got a Metrum Octave and the toslink on my PC is brutal both onboard and X-Fi varieties. Should be interesting to see what it does for the Octave and the DAC-2 I have.
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M2Tech's own products are indeed crap, but somehow Empirical has gotten magic out of their asynch tech. Must be some heavy modding or something there. Same with John Kenny's products.
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It'll be interesting to see how the DAC wars continue. I personally prefer the Wolfson over the Saber32, as the Saber32 implementations I've heard sound a little etched.
Which ESS DACs have you heard? I was of the same opinion of them when I had a maxed out Buffalo2. It sounded too much like a BM DAC1 to me. I am biased towards properly implemented R2R though.
I have had a prototype ESS DAC for a couple of months now, that has more resolution than my PCM1704 and PCM63 DAC or CDPs (even a Naim CD555), but sounds pretty natural. My guess it is a minimum of 2 years away from release though :)p18
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NFB-17: I have the NFB-16 and it is excellent. I strongly suspect it is the new USB implementation that nails it. Best WM8741 implementation I've heard so far (though I haven't heard the PWD for more than a few minutes at a meet). That is it really just a low-end portable is crazy. Am taking it to Tokyo with me to compare to the ODAC etc. to to make sure I'm not crazy, but for something that basically sounds like a more musical Dragonfly I find it immensely satisfying.
I don't know if this comes as a surprise, but the one thing that's preventing me from buying the NFB-17 at the moment is the 9 different settings for OS and filters. This is because I'll probably pick one and end up getting disappointed at my choice, forever thinking if there's a better setting while I'm listening to music :-Z Do you have any idea if one or two of those filters work as a catch all for all types of music at a certain resolution?
Even the TCXO upgrade option as well as the WM8805/DIR9001 receiver option is bothering me facepalm I have an idea about the differences between the receivers at least, and I'll most likely pick DIR9001. This is clearly a case of more choice not always being better!
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Just stick it on linear phase with lots of oversampling and leave it there. Alternatively, you can try minimum phase, which will sound exactly the same.
That said, I have absolutely no faith in AudioGd's ability to engineer decent products: their discrete opamps are godawful, and it was either on the NFB-12 or the NFB-17 that they completely screwed up the digital filtering (yay aliasing!).
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Seems Audio GD products are very polarizing :)
Also, there's a Cambridge Audio Azur 840C on sale on one of our local forums for $600. I plan on using it mainly as a DAC, but it'd be nice to have a decent CD player as well since I only use lossless rips to "play" CDs at the moment, and I have a lot of CDs. Was thinking of pairing it with an Anedio U2 or a similar quality converter if ever.
I'm not really sure how the DAC in the 840C compares to the DACs of today though; since it seems they've (as in DACs in general) improved a lot over the past few years.
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I don't know if this comes as a surprise, but the one thing that's preventing me from buying the NFB-17 at the moment is the 9 different settings for OS and filters. This is because I'll probably pick one and end up getting disappointed at my choice, forever thinking if there's a better setting while I'm listening to music :-Z Do you have any idea if one or two of those filters work as a catch all for all types of music at a certain resolution?
Even the TCXO upgrade option as well as the WM8805/DIR9001 receiver option is bothering me facepalm I have an idea about the differences between the receivers at least, and I'll most likely pick DIR9001. This is clearly a case of more choice not always being better!
9 does seem a bit excessive, but usually it's not that difficult to pick a single filter that you're happiest with and stick with that one. Esoterics come with a bunch too, and one is usually best overall. The DIR9001 is limited to 24/96 right? Do you need 176 or 192 support, if so, then your choice is already made for you. The WM8805 is decent enough, better than the CS8416 at least.
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After reading a lot on Audio GD, I've pretty much decided on which DAC I'm getting. Most likely it's going to be a Cambridge Audio Azur 840c, the CD player with digital inputs and balanced outputs ;D It uses dual AD1955 DACs, and has an option to upsample to 24/384 (probably useless). For usb output, I'll get one of the XMOS usb-spdif converters, most likely the Stello or the Anedio. Getting it because it's a pretty good deal for $600 I think. It used to be $1600 bnew.
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It'll be interesting to see how the DAC wars continue. I personally prefer the Wolfson over the Saber32, as the Saber32 implementations I've heard sound a little etched.
Which ESS DACs have you heard? I was of the same opinion of them when I had a maxed out Buffalo2. It sounded too much like a BM DAC1 to me. I am biased towards properly implemented R2R though.
I have had a prototype ESS DAC for a couple of months now, that has more resolution than my PCM1704 and PCM63 DAC or CDPs (even a Naim CD555), but sounds pretty natural. My guess it is a minimum of 2 years away from release though :)p18
I have heard a few. I own an Epiphany Acoustics EHP-O2D which is quite nice (rather warm). I heard the Audiolab M-DAC (ES9018) and that's nice - powerful but a little bit clinical for me, a bit horrid with the HD800. Then I heard a Resonssence Invica (ES9016) which was utterly sublime - really smooth but amazingly detailed, although really expensive too.
I don't think you can judge a sound by what DAC of uses at all, the implementation of the whole is just too important. You just need to hear it.
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I don't think you can judge a sound by what DAC of uses at all, the implementation of the whole is just too important. You just need to hear it.
This I agree with 100%. As long as specs are to a minimum standard, everything else is in the listening. Heck I like my fiiO D3 ($30) more than an old Pioneer Elite player LOL
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Interesting Q&A with Charles Hansen from Ayre over at Audiostream.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-charles-hansen-ayre-acoustics
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Interesting Q&A with Charles Hansen from Ayre over at Audiostream.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-charles-hansen-ayre-acoustics
Thanks for posting that. It does a good job of explaining why 16/44 isn't good enough - filters. Whether we need more than 16-bits or more than 22Khz of maximum frequency response is arguable (though I would say we do) but digital filters are a legitimate problem, one that is reduced substantially with recordings at 24/88 or 24/96. We're stuck with 16/44 because we're stuck with a 35+ year old format. That's ridiculous. Mainstream audio is stuck in the LaserDisc era.
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Maybe it's just me, but I think attempting to alter the sound of your product through firmware updates is obnoxious. High-end audio is obsessive compulsive enough as it is. This is a several thousand dollar DAC, not some $200 MP3 player. Get it done, then release it. Don't start messing with it, the last thing on earth I want to do is to start obsessing about what FW version sounds best with what, Oooo maybe I should flash to 2.02 while listening to classical, than then flash to 2.20 for rock! That'll be fun!
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2012/10/ps-audio-perfectwave-dac-mkii-review-part-2/ (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2012/10/ps-audio-perfectwave-dac-mkii-review-part-2/)
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Interesting Q&A with Charles Hansen from Ayre over at Audiostream.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-charles-hansen-ayre-acoustics
Thanks for posting that. It does a good job of explaining why 16/44 isn't good enough - filters. Whether we need more than 16-bits or more than 22Khz of maximum frequency response is arguable (though I would say we do) but digital filters are a legitimate problem, one that is reduced substantially with recordings at 24/88 or 24/96. We're stuck with 16/44 because we're stuck with a 35+ year old format. That's ridiculous. Mainstream audio is stuck in the LaserDisc era.
That issue is solved with oversampling: which unless I'm much mistaken is what Charles Hansen is referring to when he speaks about "quad-rate" sampling (referring to 4X oversampling). With oversampling, the limitations of digital filtering yields, to use his words, "practically non-existent" compromises. In fact, this works best for lower sample-rate data, as higher oversampling ratios can be used.
This is a point against high-resolution content, not for it.
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Yeah, Dan Lavry states that 60kHz would probably be the ideal sampling rate, to get the effect of the filters out of the audio band, but of course nobody uses that! :)
Oversampling can have it's disadvantages too. It's basically real time sample rate conversion (SRC), which of course can have an audible effect itself, (due to the linear phase filters used, which have "pre-ringing", which can be especially audible on high frequency transients such as hats and cymbals), which could be more detrimental to the source file than not using oversampling at all. Lots of good info in this thread:
http://repforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=1164.0
It's always swings and roundabouts with digital audio, much like photography. Best to take each source as it comes, and listen to what works best for particular pieces of music.
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The overwhelming majority of the ringing occurs, assuming oversampling, at frequencies far outside the audible range, and they'll be attenuated by virtue of sitting in/past the transition band of the digital filter. Choosing inaudible ringing (and it is inaudible) over the massive shortcomings of NOS DACs is a no-brainer. Any decent DAC will oversample.
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The overwhelming majority of the ringing occurs, assuming oversampling, at frequencies far outside the audible range, and they'll be attenuated by virtue of sitting in/past the transition band of the digital filter. Chossing inaudible ringing (and it is inaudible) over the massive shortcomings of NOS DACs is a no-brainer. Any decent DAC will oversample.
I would argue that native 24/96 material without the use of over sampling can be better, particularly with ASRC. Those are often not a sonic improvement at all.
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The overwhelming majority of the ringing occurs, assuming oversampling, at frequencies far outside the audible range, and they'll be attenuated by virtue of sitting in/past the transition band of the digital filter. Chossing inaudible ringing (and it is inaudible) over the massive shortcomings of NOS DACs is a no-brainer. Any decent DAC will oversample.
I would argue that native 24/96 material without the use of over sampling can be better, particularly with ASRC. Those are often not a sonic improvement at all.
Do you mean that you find ASRC particularly audibly objectionable, whilst prefer to forgo oversampling in general with 24/96 content? Bear in mind that I'm just talking from a theoretical/measurements perspective here, and from that perspective find the idea of NOS DACs being in any way a match for their modern oversampling brethren confusing.
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"Although his timing might border on the convenient from a marketing perspective, McGowan has since expressed his dislike for sample rate convertors. He likens the SRC sound to that of a prostitute: good-looking and enticing but far from pure or natural. An SRC wears too much make-up and hairspray.
In his February 28th blog post McGowan took it a stage further by referring to the use the use of sample rate convertors as a “conspiracy” of which PS Audio were as guilty as the next guy. “…most SRC circuits (including our own) manage to make everything fed into them worse sounding”, he wrote.
Where’s the beef? A sample rate convertor (SRC) is a tried and trusted method of jitter-busting. Many manufacturers include one in their own product for this very reason. For example, by converting (up-sampling) a 44.1KHz sample-rate source file to , say, a 96KHz sample-rate, the data is re-clocked, additional data points are interpolated and layer of jitter is soothed away prior to the data stream making its onward journey to the analogue conversion stage. Theoretically, the only jitter that then makes its way to the DAC chip is that caused by timing errors in the SRC’s clock.
Having spent nearly nine months now with this new version I can confirm the expected: that NativeX consistently sounds superior to Native or SRC-processed data. Music reproduction is nudged closer toward sharp focus and sounds altogether more alive. Being able to better discern player locations across the soundstage from left to right and front to back makes music more believable – less of an auditory illusion. The elastic and pliable qualities of the Network Bridge sound have made it across to S/PDIF and USB inputs throughly intact."
In my experience, asynchronous SRC that converts 44.1 to 96 or 192 produces mediocre results. Oversampling via the DAC is different, the 1704 generally uses 8X OS, I have no problem with that.
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Hmm...all the artifacts produced by, say, the ASRC chip in the Benchmark DAC1 are about 130db below the signal (can't remember where I read this, but it was definitely from Benchmark themselves): colour me incredibly deeply extremely skeptical, TBH. But you knew that already ;)
EDIT: From Benchmark's website: "Many ASRC devices have enough DSP horsepower to hold errors to levels that are 130 to 150 dB below the audio."
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/discuss/feedback/newsletter/2010/05/1/jitter-reduction-using-pll-and-asrc-devices
Obviously, this doesn't preclude someone screwing up the implementation in a given product though, and there are doubtless plenty of inferior chips to the ones Benchmark refer to (although their being audibly inferior is another matter entirely).
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Maybe it's just me, but I think attempting to alter the sound of your product through firmware updates is obnoxious. High-end audio is obsessive compulsive enough as it is. This is a several thousand dollar DAC, not some $200 MP3 player. Get it done, then release it. Don't start messing with it, the last thing on earth I want to do is to start obsessing about what FW version sounds best with what, Oooo maybe I should flash to 2.02 while listening to classical, than then flash to 2.20 for rock! That'll be fun!
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2012/10/ps-audio-perfectwave-dac-mkii-review-part-2/ (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2012/10/ps-audio-perfectwave-dac-mkii-review-part-2/)
That is not the intent of the various FW's but a side effect. Ps Audio has stated there are software issues affecting the signatures of the new FW for the mk2 and they are working to resolve them. It is actually an acknowledged programming flaw, not a 'feature'. One reason among others I have put off the mk2 upgrade. Even though mk2 hardware is a relatively significant upgrade w/ perceived benefits I'm not willing yet to deal w/ the issues. It is not a satisfactory trade off for me atm.
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The Benchmark is also a DAC that seems like it was designed to hit numbers rather than sound good. I would never point to it as a way to do anything properly, nor am I a fan of the ASRC chip that it uses. The output stage is also pretty crap. Other than that, it's fantastic.
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I just read some of the Charles Hansen article. It was a nice article... I have some thoughts/comments on it though.
My understanding is that oversampling is the process by which an analog signal is digitally sampled well above the Nyquist rate (2x it's real bandwidth). Upsampling is a process by which an already digitally sampled signal is sampled above it's original sampling rate. IMO oversampling an analog signal to say 88.2kHz will always be better down the road than to upsample a 44.1kHz digial signal to 88.2kHz.
In regards to upsampling, it requires an "interpolation" filter (a low pass filter most of the time) after the up-conversion, to remove spectrum images that get pulled into the passband from the sampling upconversion. These filters may need to be fairly sharp for 44.1kHz, and one may have to deal with trade-offs between phase and amplitude distortion. Upsampling can be detrimental if the signal BW is very close to half the sampling rate (as in 44.1kHz where the audio BW is ~20kHz).
Regarding minimum-phase and linear-phase filters. Linear phase filter have a relatively large group delay (and transient.) This delay represents the delta in time between the input and the output of the filter. Regardless of pre or post ringing, under the right conditions, and for a band limited signal, one can create a linear phase filter that will leave the input signal untouched in amplitude and phase (i.e. no "echos"... just some small short time transients) after the filter settling time. This is not always possible with a minimum-phase filter. In fact, making a minimum-phase filter from a linear-phase filter is not guaranteed AFAIK, and one is left off with an approximation (sometimes really bad one.) In communications, linear phase is highly regarded...
Also, I don't think oversampling for delta sigma require an "interpolation" at it's input. I think it's OK to hold the data if it is already 8x (the delta sigma output low pass filter should be more than adequate to deal with this I think...) However, it is true that one can get several bits more out of a delta sigma after filtering the modulated quantization noise... That is their purpose, and in the end it eases implementation of the analog conversion.
Anyhow, those are some of my thoughts headbang
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The Benchmark is also a DAC that seems like it was designed to hit numbers rather than sound good. I would never point to it as a way to do anything properly, nor am I a fan of the ASRC chip that it uses. The output stage is also pretty crap. Other than that, it's fantastic.
Show of hands: how many of us have owned a Benchmark?
Ok, those of you with your hands up, keep them up if still own a Benchmark.
Yeah, that's what I thought.
At the time the Benchmark came to market, there wasn't a comparable product at that price point. Now, there are better options available. Heck, I'd put my Dragonfly and National up against a Benchmark.
Owning a Benchmark was a stage in the journey.
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Whether we need more than 16-bits or more than 22Khz of maximum frequency response is arguable (though I would say we do)
I'm inclined to agree, for whatever that's worth. There are plenty of instruments out there whose range reaches to 3.5KHz or above (for example, an 88-key standard piano at concert pitch tops out at around 4.1). The fifth overtone is going to be on the wrong side of a brick wall at 22.05. Now, that fifth overtone is not, in and of itself, audible, but it's part of the original analog waveform that was created by the instrument, and its presence or absence will have an effect (perhaps subtle, perhaps not) on what the listener perceives at the other end of the signal path. If that information can be preserved without an adverse impact on some other aspect of the listening experience, I'm in favor of preserving it.
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Whether we need more than 16-bits or more than 22Khz of maximum frequency response is arguable (though I would say we do)
I'm inclined to agree, for whatever that's worth. There are plenty of instruments out there whose range reaches to 3.5KHz or above (for example, an 88-key standard piano at concert pitch tops out at around 4.1). The fifth overtone is going to be on the wrong side of a brick wall at 22.05. Now, that fifth overtone is not, in and of itself, audible, but it's part of the original analog waveform that was created by the instrument, and its presence or absence will have an effect (perhaps subtle, perhaps not) on what the listener perceives at the other end of the signal path. If that information can be preserved without an adverse impact on some other aspect of the listening experience, I'm in favor of preserving it.
I agree too. Like you said, it keeps the whole spectrum of the instrument intact (no compromises.) Furthermore, less trade-offs in the implementation of the DACs need to be made given the extra frequency range available. This was a good point in that Hansen article IMHO.
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I'm inclined to agree, for whatever that's worth. There are plenty of instruments out there whose range reaches to 3.5KHz or above (for example, an 88-key standard piano at concert pitch tops out at around 4.1). The fifth overtone is going to be on the wrong side of a brick wall at 22.05. Now, that fifth overtone is not, in and of itself, audible, but it's part of the original analog waveform that was created by the instrument, and its presence or absence will have an effect (perhaps subtle, perhaps not) on what the listener perceives at the other end of the signal path. If that information can be preserved without an adverse impact on some other aspect of the listening experience, I'm in favor of preserving it.
Yup. I went back and checked some of my 192 rips, and I have vinyl that peaks at nearly 65Khz in response. Obviously that's extremely low level, inaudible sound, but it's still there. I don't think using 176.4 or 192 is all that necessary, and there's evidence to suggest that DACs actually perform worse with program material that high as opposed to 88 or 96. Given how cheap storage is these days though, I think the argument for keeping 16/44 around is pretty weak.
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I'm inclined to agree, for whatever that's worth. There are plenty of instruments out there whose range reaches to 3.5KHz or above (for example, an 88-key standard piano at concert pitch tops out at around 4.1). The fifth overtone is going to be on the wrong side of a brick wall at 22.05. Now, that fifth overtone is not, in and of itself, audible, but it's part of the original analog waveform that was created by the instrument, and its presence or absence will have an effect (perhaps subtle, perhaps not) on what the listener perceives at the other end of the signal path. If that information can be preserved without an adverse impact on some other aspect of the listening experience, I'm in favor of preserving it.
Yup. I went back and checked some of my 192 rips, and I have vinyl that peaks at nearly 65Khz in response. Obviously that's extremely low level, inaudible sound, but it's still there. I don't think using 176.4 or 192 is all that necessary, and there's evidence to suggest that DACs actually perform worse with program material that high as opposed to 88 or 96. Given how cheap storage is these days though, I think the argument for keeping 16/44 around is pretty weak.
may I ask what did you rip it from, and if it's the vinyl, how do you rip vinyl? do you need a good A/D converter? how do you shop for a turntable? thanks, sorry im a noob
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may I ask what did you rip it from, and if it's the vinyl, how do you rip vinyl? do you need a good A/D converter? how do you shop for a turntable? thanks, sorry im a noob
You may want to start a vinyl thread as this will get pretty OT, but the basics are you need a decent table, cartridge, phono preamp, and ADC. Plan on spending at least around $500 for a Rega RP1, Music Hall MMF-2.2, or Pro-Ject RPM1.3. Belt drive > direct drive. Set aside at least another few hundred dollars for a decent cartridge, as the carts that come with these tables are not going to be very good. Don't forget to match the weight requirements of the tonearm to the cartridge. Music Direct usually has some good deals on demo turn tables which come packaged with good carts for $1000-1200 or so.
Phono preamps range from a few hundred to the moon. You can start with one of the ones with a built in ADC, but you'll definitely want to move up to a dedicated pre and ADC before long.
Finally there's the actual recording and post processing, and this is what makes or breaks a good vinyl rip. Use something like Izotope RX to clean up your recording, and to do it properly you have to go in by hand. Obviously new mint vinyl makes that job easier, but you still have to do it.
Just throwing money at equipment doesn't guarantee anything, I've seen people brag about their $50K vinyl rigs and their rips sound like shit. You have to know what you're doing.
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I think the argument for keeping 16/44 around is pretty weak.
Unless you're limited by choices made by the designers of your portable source. I do my vinyl rips at 96/24' but I also make a 48/24 copy for use on iDevices. I make a 44.1/16 copy of hi-res downloads for the same reason.
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Just sold my current DAC (NFB-10SE) on a whim in the space of 30 mins lol. and need all of your advice guys!
Was looking for a DAC under $1500 preferably with balanced outputs as well, so I have a few questions if anyone can answer them.
Does anyone have any experience/opinions on any of the following? the audiolab m-dac(found one for $600), audio-gd reference 5.x($950 here), NAD M51($1499)?
How do they match up compared to a Ref 7.1?
has anyone heard any of audio-gd's sabre offerings? was also looking at a NFB-7.32
Is there anything else in the <$1500 category worth looking at?
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@ DaveBSC, thank you very much for the thoughtful reply, I'm going to do some basic research on the topic, then I shall make a new thread. Hopefully you won't mind sharing your knowledge further
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Just sold my current DAC (NFB-10SE) on a whim in the space of 30 mins lol. and need all of your advice guys!
Was looking for a DAC under $1500 preferably with balanced outputs as well, so I have a few questions if anyone can answer them.
Does anyone have any experience/opinions on any of the following? the audiolab m-dac(found one for $600), audio-gd reference 5.x($950 here), NAD M51($1499)?
How do they match up compared to a Ref 7.1?
has anyone heard any of audio-gd's sabre offerings? was also looking at a NFB-7.32
Is there anything else in the <$1500 category worth looking at?
The best advice for someone looking for a DAC right now is "wait 10 days before you pull the trigger." Resonessence is introducing a new DAC at RMAF. No idea whether it will be in the price range you have specified, but if it is you will definitely want to evaluate it.
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10 days increases my budget too, good idea haha
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Just picked up a Pico DAC for 150$. If that isn't good value then I don't even...
My next one will most likely be a multibit monster I'll be building myself. Otherwise I have a big headamp and dacses stay on the small side.
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Welcome to the club ahoy
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To the "small-source-big-amps" club?
To be honest I'm a bit anxious to see how Pico will fare against my current fiio e10. It will be a the battle of output stages as they both have the same dac chips. Also I've been looking into the idea of building an usb fifo buffer stage that has independent regulated power and will hopefully put out quality usb data signal.
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I ditched the E10 for the Pico. Given both have direct line outs I could directly test which DAC was to my liking via speakers. I preferred the Pico.
As a cheap DAC the E10 is a budget miracle. Save for the headphone out I found it quite useful.
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Oh. my. goodness.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/resonessence-labs-concero-dac
Lots of questions to be answered. But if the answers are all good ...
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Nah, I'm through with small dacs no matter how good they sound.
Big multibits are the future of me!
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I ordered a Concero. At $662.80 including shipping, my curiosity just couldn't be restrained. :)p7
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Would you know if the usb receiver has galvanic isolation?
Is it an XMOS chipset?
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Would you know if the usb receiver has galvanic isolation?
Is it an XMOS chipset?
Here's what the company has chosen to tell the world so far.
http://resonessencelabs.com/concero-specifications/
I expect we'll learn more once units get into the hands of reviewers, and after folks like Lavorgna start grilling Mark Mallinson at RMAF this weekend.
I'm a simpleton. I only really care about two parameters with respect to any piece of gear: whether (and if so, to what extent) it enhances my enjoyment of music, and how much it costs.
I understand the advantages of isolation, and the XMOS USB receiver is a proven technology, but those are means, not ends. There are other ways to get there, and I try to avoid treating the presence or absence of particular components or technologies as shibboleths (with one exception: I would never buy a USB DAC that's not asynchronous).
YMMV.
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Thanks for the link. It looks like the usb input is isolated. With USB powered components, I'm always skeptical about the quality of the power supply.
And yes, I agree that implementation is more important than the parts.
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Looks a lot like the KingRex. USB power generally = fail.
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Exactamundo! USB power and I think I spend for the FiiO e10 at most. The others are just slightly better. The really good ones are AC powered. I actually tried Sforzas dacport LX comparing with the cheap FiiO e10 and in some ways the e10 was better. Of course it was due to system matching but still the dacport was only better basswise and not much better in transparency. The dacport is better no question about that but for the price uhmmm no!
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Yeah, whilst it is theoretically possible to extract clean power from USB many can't be bothered to do so. Hence these DAC'ses end up being gravely handicapped.
Currently I'm looking at ways to do a nice regulated USB PSU that throughputs data.
600$ for a USB DAC is something I sure won't be paying. For that money a nice older multibit can be bought.
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Yeah, whilst it is theoretically possible to extract clean power from USB many can't be bothered to do so. Hence these DAC'ses end up being gravely handicapped.
Currently I'm looking at ways to do a nice regulated USB PSU that throughputs data.
600$ for a USB DAC is something I sure won't be paying. For that money a nice older multibit can be bought.
Depends on your definition of clean. A typical USB port will have DC ripple in hundreds of mV. A high-end ATX computer power supply will have 10-30mV of DC ripple depending on the rail, the 12V is usually highest. A quality linear PSU should have under 1mV.
Why fight all of that garbage when you can just plug into the wall?
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I wonder when will we see the first AC powered "cable" dac. Like a Y splitter of sorts.
Then again I'm anxious to see how a good (Pico) USB can perform when fed from a regulated linear PSU.
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Exactamundo! USB power and I think I spend for the FiiO e10 at most. The others are just slightly better. The really good ones are AC powered. I actually tried Sforzas dacport LX comparing with the cheap FiiO e10 and in some ways the e10 was better. Of course it was due to system matching but still the dacport was only better basswise and not much better in transparency. The dacport is better no question about that but for the price uhmmm no!
What? What was the rest of your chain (amp/phones)? Bass is the most obvious as the E10 is bass light but that is certainly not where the differences stop. The DACPort LX and ODAC should be pulling a noticeable amount more resolution from tracks than the E10.
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I am currently listening to an E10 line-out with a Sigma22/Dynalo/JoeTree+HD650 setup and it doesn't sound too bass shy. If anything I thought that the headamp section on the E10 was missing high freq spectrum. With line out and proper (I think) amping highs came back but bass only got better controlled.
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The Concero looks nice for the price, but I should mention something:
It was designed as a USB/Spdif bridge.
It was only later adapted to be a full fledged DAC.
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A comparison with the CIAudio Transient would be interesting. There's is a lot more fully featured for $699.
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Which USB to SPDIF bridge would you guys recommend? I'm not sure how big a factor power supply would be for a component like this, since it's not exactly a DAC. Currently I'm thinking of getting the one by Anedio, or the bridge version of the JKDAC since it has battery power. The hiface2 also seems to be an okay choice because of the new receiver and drivers, although I thought the original m2tech drivers were fine.
Exactamundo! USB power and I think I spend for the FiiO e10 at most. The others are just slightly better. The really good ones are AC powered. I actually tried Sforzas dacport LX comparing with the cheap FiiO e10 and in some ways the e10 was better. Of course it was due to system matching but still the dacport was only better basswise and not much better in transparency. The dacport is better no question about that but for the price uhmmm no!
I have an E10 as well now and I'm not sure how someone can actually arrive at that conclusion. When I compared them, the biggest difference between the two was how they handled dynamics. The E10 clearly sounded a little flat compared and less resolving compared to the dacport. I think one of the problems might lie with the USB receiver (which actually shows up as an SPDIF converter like the UDAC2) it uses; it's the same one used by a lot of cheap ebay stuff from China to cut costs. Another thing I noticed was the difference in soundstage presentation which was aparent when listening to classical concertos. The E10 just sounded (again), flat with no depth compred to the dacport. I'm not saying the dacport is perfect either, as both dacs fall short to the reference dac I've been using.
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The Concero looks nice for the price, but I should mention something:
It was designed as a USB/Spdif bridge.
It was only later adapted to be a full fledged DAC.
What's your source for that information?
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Mark. About 3-4 months ago.
That is, unless he melded two projects into one.
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Which USB to SPDIF bridge would you guys recommend? I'm not sure how big a factor power supply would be for a component like this, since it's not exactly a DAC. Currently I'm thinking of getting the one by Anedio, or the bridge version of the JKDAC since it has battery power. The hiface2 also seems to be an okay choice because of the new receiver and drivers, although I thought the original m2tech drivers were fine.
Exactamundo! USB power and I think I spend for the FiiO e10 at most. The others are just slightly better. The really good ones are AC powered. I actually tried Sforzas dacport LX comparing with the cheap FiiO e10 and in some ways the e10 was better. Of course it was due to system matching but still the dacport was only better basswise and not much better in transparency. The dacport is better no question about that but for the price uhmmm no!
I have an E10 as well now and I'm not sure how someone can actually arrive at that conclusion. When I compared them, the biggest difference between the two was how they handled dynamics. The E10 clearly sounded a little flat compared and less resolving compared to the dacport. I think one of the problems might lie with the USB receiver (which actually shows up as an SPDIF converter like the UDAC2) it uses; it's the same one used by a lot of cheap ebay stuff from China to cut costs. Another thing I noticed was the difference in soundstage presentation which was aparent when listening to classical concertos. The E10 just sounded (again), flat with no depth compred to the dacport. I'm not saying the dacport is perfect either, as both dacs fall short to the reference dac I've been using.
Yes the dacport is better. There is no question about it but it just so happens that the E10 being a little thinner sounding matches better to me with my cans which is why I arrived at that conclusion.
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If you use the E10's DAC only via line out it's actually quite okay. If the funds permit me I'll go for a midi-based desktop solution with a power supply. Focusrite has some good all in one boxes...
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Yah i use the line out going into the o2. The Centrance was definitely the better DAC but I just like the dt250-250/e10 dac synergy slightly more when using the o2 plus its much cheaper. The centrance was more aggressive and thicker sounding which I instantly liked right away but some songs get slightly too bassy for me with the dt250-250.
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Yah i use the line out going into the o2. The Centrance was definitely the better DAC but I just like the dt250-250/e10 dac synergy slightly more when using the o2 plus its much cheaper. The centrance was more aggressive and thicker sounding which I instantly liked right away but some songs get slightly too bassy for me with the dt250-250.
I wanted to add as well that yes, for the price the E10 is very good. I'd even go as far as saying that the Centrance doesn't seem to be as good value compared to the increase in sound quality the E10 gives over stock PC sound cards. It also sounds good in subjective listening despite the angry AV engineer guy bashing it for measuring badly over at his blog.
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Has anyone compared a classic vintage DAC like the Adcom GDA700 vs. a modern, lower budget DAC like the Schiit Bifrost for the Cambridge Dacmagic V2? I'd love to get some insights on whether the $300-500 modern DAC category has some great winners. For this particular comparison, I'd be using a gamma2 as my reference point.
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Which USB to SPDIF bridge would you guys recommend?
Been looking into this for a while now and eventually pulled the trigger on the AP2. Where the AP and JKSPDIF differ than EVERYTHING else... no output galvanic transformer. Whaaah?
Ya that's right, both get their elevated performance by dropping the idea of an output transformer. That's not the same as not being isolated though. The JKSPDIF is completely off the grid with battery powering the whole thing. AP moves the transformer from the output to between the processor and the spdif section. Those are the top two, hands down. If the new JK wasn't so ugly, I would have gone that way ;) But I did suggest to John that he go back to the blue led, single switch without dropping the new function.
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Actually all evidence seems to point to the Off-Ramp 5 being the best of the best, especially when used with the Short Block common mode choke. CIAudio's Transient MKII also has the potential to be extremely good. Bus power = fail, end of story. AP went on and on about how great their regenerative power supply was, and then wouldn't you know it, a battery power upgrade comes along and throws all of that out the window.
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Actually all evidence seems to point to the Off-Ramp 5 being the best of the best, especially when used with the Short Block common mode choke. CIAudio's Transient MKII also has the potential to be extremely good. Bus power = fail, end of story. AP went on and on about how great their regenerative power supply was, and then wouldn't you know it, a battery power upgrade comes along and throws all of that out the window.
Why do you say that about the Off Ramp 5? Personally I am pretty skeptical of EA given some of their early products (early Off Ramp and Off Ramp wifi were awful)
I also heard one of their older tube DACs and it was pretty mediocre. Haven't read Steve's posts on Headfi recently (if he still posts there), but his older posts were rooted in bullshit pseudo-science too.
I say ditch USB altogether and get a high quality PCI-E card like a Lynx, RME or ESI. You can get these at fractions of their MSRP used.
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Everyone I've ever talked to who has owned an OR4 or OR5 has been blown away by them. The earlier models were adaptive mode and definitely not as good. TAS reviewed the OR4 and is using it as a reference, Stereophile also reviewed one and JA measured it - nothing untoward.
The amount of jitter coming out of those pro audio sound cards is at least 5 times higher than the best USB interfaces. Their clocks are nowhere NEAR as good as what's in the AP, the Legato, Alpha USB, or OR5. Sound cards are NOT the way to go.
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The amount of jitter coming out of those pro audio sound cards is at least 5 times higher than the best USB interfaces. Their clocks are nowhere NEAR as good as what's in the AP, the Legato, Alpha USB, or OR5. Sound cards are NOT the way to go.
Can you link me to some measurements?
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RME generally only claims <1ns. What I've seen of the Juli@ is not impressive. Lynx cards are better, but they aren't using femto second clocks like the Berkeley, CIAudio, OR, etc. That's not even getting in to all of the reasons why you wouldn't want your audio interface inside your computer...
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The new Benchmark DAC2 looks pretty interesting.
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac2-hgc
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A bit pricey but interesting, lots of features. Native DSD, it seems it can be used as HPA for the analogue inputs...
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The new Benchmark DAC2 looks pretty interesting.
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac2-hgc
If it still sounds like a Benchmark, not interested.
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Well you won't know that till you hear it! ;)
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Well you won't know that till you hear it! ;)
Wait, what? You mean it's inappropriate to pontificate about the sound of gear you've never heard?
That's crazy talk. Where did you get that ridiculous idea?
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He wasn't claiming to know what it sounds like. He merely said he wouldn't be interested in it IF it sounded like their previous gear. I think that's a perfectly reasonable sentiment.
I don't like the way the LCD-3 sounds. I'm not going to be interested in the LCD-4 if it sounds like that. Obviously I wont know how it sounds until I actually listen to it or hear reliable reports.
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Interesting that the benchmark does 24/192 even after their paper (similar to lavry's white paper) about how 24/96 is preferable to 24/192. Finally gave into pressure it seems, as tech hasn't changed much in the interim.
Here's part of their article:
An examination of converter IC data sheets will reveal that virtually all audio converter ICs deliver their peak performance near 96 kHz. The 4x (176.4 kHz and 192 kHz) mode delivers poorer performance in many respects. In most cases, noise, distortion, pass-band ripple, stop-band attenuation and other key performance measurements are significantly better in the 2X (88.2 kHz and 96 kHz) mode of operation. Every A/D and D/A conversion IC that we have tested performs better at 96 kHz than at 192 kHz. In most cases THD+N, SNR, passband ripple, and stopband attenuation are all poorer at 192 kHz than at 96 kHz. Based upon these tests, I am not surprised that there is not yet any conclusive evidence that 192 kHz is better than 96 kHz. Given the current state of the art, 192 kHz should sound poorer than 96 kHz. 192 kHz provides additional bandwidth between 48 kHz and 96 kHz but there is no real evidence that this is useful given the limitations of our microphones, speakers, and hearing. 192 kHz adds useless bandwidth while decreasing performance.
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The DAC1 always did 24/192 as well. Even if it's inferior it's still good to have for compatibility.
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176 and 192 is a nice feature to have because there are recordings where there is no other choice. You can of course always dither and downsample those on your own, but I prefer to listen to recordings as they were natively done in the studio rather than mess with them, even if "transparent" software is available to do the downsampling.
The additional frequency response also seems unnecessary. 22Khz in my view is not enough, but I don't think its necessary to try and match the 60Khz+ that vinyl is capable of. Ribbon tweeters typically run out of range around 50Khz, and dome tweeters far below that. In order to really use 176 or 192 you need super tweeters, and at least a decent amplifier that is comfortable to 100Khz and doesn't have its distortion shoot up with UHF, like say Class D amps.
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The DAC1 always did 24/192 as well. Even if it's inferior it's still good to have for compatibility.
Did it really? Perhaps I had it confused with Lavry then.
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The input sample range of the original Benchmark is supposedly 28-195Khz by way of an AD1853 DAC. Its USB input is adaptive mode, limited to 24/96. Maybe that's what you were thinking of?
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I usually remember USB most as that's what I was interested in when I was in the market. If the USB was 24/96, then yes that's what I was thinking.
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The DAC1 always did 24/192 as well. Even if it's inferior it's still good to have for compatibility.
Did it really? Perhaps I had it confused with Lavry then.
Lavry's high end pro model is only 24/96. I recall reading that the DAC1 resampled everything to ~110khz for optimum performance.
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Since this is DAC talk, here's a dood talking about DACs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE)
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thanks for the above vid link, extremely informative. Probably have to watch a few more times to understand the whole thing.
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Exactamundo! USB power and I think I spend for the FiiO e10 at most. The others are just slightly better. The really good ones are AC powered. I actually tried Sforzas dacport LX comparing with the cheap FiiO e10 and in some ways the e10 was better. Of course it was due to system matching but still the dacport was only better basswise and not much better in transparency. The dacport is better no question about that but for the price uhmmm no!
What? What was the rest of your chain (amp/phones)? Bass is the most obvious as the E10 is bass light but that is certainly not where the differences stop. The DACPort LX and ODAC should be pulling a noticeable amount more resolution from tracks than the E10.
Modest system with the O2 and the Beyer DT250-250. The depth part of the soundstage is probably not that significant with these cans since they don't really throw you a super 3d soundscape. These cans are all about tonality and coherence for me. So if an ODAC is basically everything a dacport is for example minus the extras in the soundstage, i would probably be 100% content on this particular setup.
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Interesting that the benchmark does 24/192 even after their paper (similar to lavry's white paper) about how 24/96 is preferable to 24/192. Finally gave into pressure it seems, as tech hasn't changed much in the interim.
Here's part of their article:
An examination of converter IC data sheets will reveal that virtually all audio converter ICs deliver their peak performance near 96 kHz. The 4x (176.4 kHz and 192 kHz) mode delivers poorer performance in many respects. In most cases, noise, distortion, pass-band ripple, stop-band attenuation and other key performance measurements are significantly better in the 2X (88.2 kHz and 96 kHz) mode of operation. Every A/D and D/A conversion IC that we have tested performs better at 96 kHz than at 192 kHz. In most cases THD+N, SNR, passband ripple, and stopband attenuation are all poorer at 192 kHz than at 96 kHz. Based upon these tests, I am not surprised that there is not yet any conclusive evidence that 192 kHz is better than 96 kHz. Given the current state of the art, 192 kHz should sound poorer than 96 kHz. 192 kHz provides additional bandwidth between 48 kHz and 96 kHz but there is no real evidence that this is useful given the limitations of our microphones, speakers, and hearing. 192 kHz adds useless bandwidth while decreasing performance.
Tthe video, I watched it a couple of times already, its really informative. I'm interested to hear John Siau's words on DSD as a playback format though and how it compares to high bit PCM both in performance and design limitations. I remember him saying that its not good by virtue of the way it works for A/D conversions though and he prefers 24/96 for that purpose.
I also remembered Elias Gwinn saying that the DAC1's usb interface was perfectly transparent and jitter free as it is quite some time back, I would also like to hear his opinions on the new asynchronous interface and why they are using it as well, as well as compare it to the DAC1's adaptive isosycnchronous usb.
As for me and DACs, will be doing my first forage into the 'high end' market with the new centrance unit or something along those lines next year for sure.
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Does anyone here like NOS dacs? What are your thoughts on them? I had a Havana before and thought it was a little sleepy sounding. Tube rolling gave me some interesting results but the sound never really got to be as snappy as I wanted. The cheaper Valab diy dac I had was more energetic and more to my liking yet didn't have the black backgroud and technicalities that I wanted. It was immediate sounding yet a little rough around the edges.
Anyone with really good NOS Dac experiences? I might get into them again but this time I think I'll stay away from tubes and just get a good solid state model.
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I quite like the Metrum Octave, even at 44. My brain knows that on paper, its a mess but my ears don't care ;) Will it best the PWD2 I have on route? My wallet hopes so, wife too I suppose, but not likely.
As for Benchmark. The new DAC2 looks like a DAC1 with 2012 tech. Back then 110K was tops to keep maximum oversample. Now they do 210K guessing for the same reason.
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Just read up on the octave. It looks interesting. Even the quad looks interesting
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Since this is DAC talk, here's a dood talking about DACs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE)
Considering the people usually don't notice when a whole extra A/D-D/A stage is inserted into the signal chain I'd love to see those blind tests he mentioned replicated...
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Since this is DAC talk, here's a dood talking about DACs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE)
Considering the people usually don't notice when a whole extra A/D-D/A stage is inserted into the signal chain I'd love to see those blind tests he mentioned replicated...
You mean like the scientific one where everyone was obliviously walking around eating cheese and crackers and they swapped in an iPod proclaiming "Ahaa! Gotcha!"?
But yes, more data is always better, no matter how poorly it is often interpreted.
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You mean like the scientific one where everyone was obliviously walking around eating cheese and crackers and they swapped in an iPod proclaiming "Ahaa! Gotcha!"?
But yes, more data is always better, no matter how poorly it is often interpreted.
Stuff like the Linn test and the M&M high rez study. The first one's to early to be a sigma-delta. Not sure about the second one.
I don't really think it matters though since the psychoacoustic effect he's proposing seems pretty implausible
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Anyone hear the Yulong D18? The price seems to be right for used units, and they're starting to pop up more frequently.
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Chinese stuff which tends to pop up more frequently for sale. Hmmmmmmm.
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Does anyone here like NOS dacs? What are your thoughts on them? I had a Havana before and thought it was a little sleepy sounding. Tube rolling gave me some interesting results but the sound never really got to be as snappy as I wanted. The cheaper Valab diy dac I had was more energetic and more to my liking yet didn't have the black backgroud and technicalities that I wanted. It was immediate sounding yet a little rough around the edges.
Anyone with really good NOS Dac experiences? I might get into them again but this time I think I'll stay away from tubes and just get a good solid state model.
LOL. I hate the NOS sound! There are people on this website who love the NOS or old R2R ladder sound. I totally understand that.
But pleeease! Give me the modern DAC sound. I don't want to be reminded of the Linn Karik/Numerik of the late 90s. Too much drama in my life at the time.
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Chinese stuff which tends to pop up more frequently for sale. Hmmmmmmm.
I think it's mostly because the D18 was among the entry-level Saber32 DACs (along with the Oppo 93) which has gotten a lot of interest on various audio communities in the last year or two. The audio resale market is having an oversupply issue from what I'm seeing. I don't recall prices dropping as aggressively as they were 12mo ago, and my feeling is that it reflects the softness in the economy and incomes. An average listener probably can't justify a $500-700 source.
I was also looking at the Grant Fidelity DAC 11, but I've never heard a tube DAC before.
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I don't want to be reminded of the Linn Karik/Numerik of the late 90s. Too much drama in my life at the time.
LOL Something personal gave you a phobia? hehehe
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More talk about DACs:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/what-are-digital-filters-and-why-are-they-requried-todays-audio-dacs-resonessence-labs-techn (http://www.audiostream.com/content/what-are-digital-filters-and-why-are-they-requried-todays-audio-dacs-resonessence-labs-techn)
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Aliases are not present in the ‘older’ analog recording formats: tape and vinyl records capture continuous signals, and do not create these artifacts.
...
So, because these pieces of crystal were made of a finite number of atoms all the same distance apart, when the phonon frequency was such that it moved more than one cycle in the distance between atoms (equivalent to the wagon wheel moving more that one spoke-distance between frames) the phonon frequency was changed – it was wrong.
facepalm
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Hey man, I just link 'em, you read 'em. :)p8
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I just tried the muse NOS dac. Been playing a bunch of songs through them and I am enjoying them quite a bit. I actually am having more fun with the music using them vs the dacport LX :)p1
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I've pretty much narrowed it down to the Cantata, Invicta, and Femto.
At this point I'm waiting for my LL to arrive before going any further. Should be next week.
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It's down to the Invicta & Meitner MA-1 for myself. If I had a more ideal situation (e.g. dedicated listening area, loudspeakers, amplifiers), I would go for the Meitner which is only about $1K more than the Invicta used / or from certain dealers (I've been told, don't know of any myself).
Considering the fact that I only have a pair of IEMs, and a pair of Paradox being built, the Invicta is at the top of the list for versatility. Plus winter months mean more travel for work and hours at the office so it'll be great to sling it into the pack and go.
I did contemplate Tari's Cantata, but again, the versatility factor kicked in.
On the promised features, I'm skeptical the Invicta will actually get DSD, but who knows. If it does, it should be sufficiently future proof / awesome. Probably buying next week.
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I would not suggest the Femto, sounds like a 24/192 with an improved PS and nicer (giant) casework. Weiss, Meitner, Invicta and Cantata all beat it in roughly the same $4-6K bracket.
I just heard that the DSD thing has been put on "back burner" for the Invicta. If it's a must then that's off the list.
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I've pretty much narrowed it down to the Cantata, Invicta, and Femto.
At this point I'm waiting for my LL to arrive before going any further. Should be next week.
Scratch the Femto, and if you're using Windows or Mac (or a transport) add an Empirical Overdrive. You might want to also consider the Bricasti DAC, and maybe the Total DAC Reference D1
http://www.totaldac.com/REFERENCE-D1-eng.htm (http://www.totaldac.com/REFERENCE-D1-eng.htm)
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I talked to Resonessence on the phone today and they say DSD is still something that's forthcoming.
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Since this is DAC talk, here's a dood talking about DACs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE)
Considering the people usually don't notice when a whole extra A/D-D/A stage is inserted into the signal chain I'd love to see those blind tests he mentioned replicated...
Also, if that's true then shouldn't SACD and DSD sound bad as well?
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Well, just dipped into my Invicta funds b/c I found a ridiculous deal on a pair of Devore speakers. Another used Invicta has popped up though & this time I should be able to snag, provided everything checks out.
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More talk about DACs:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/what-are-digital-filters-and-why-are-they-requried-todays-audio-dacs-resonessence-labs-techn (http://www.audiostream.com/content/what-are-digital-filters-and-why-are-they-requried-todays-audio-dacs-resonessence-labs-techn)
Thanks for linking this article Mike. IMHO it was a very good read. My comments bellow:
"This is not trivial: they are asking the analog designer to make a filter that lets through 20Khz, but blocks off all signals above 22.05Khz!"
Yes, this is not trivial indeed. A sharp cutoff like that will result in a trade-off between phase distortion, pass band flatness, and filter order. Having a sampling rate of 96 kHz helps to alleviate some of these problems.
"Another filter is needed: a filter that lets through 20Khz and stops 24.1Khz (24.1Khz is as low as we can get, since the studio has let only 20Khz come though the lowest alias is at 44.1k – 20k = 24.1Khz)."
As later explained in the article, this is the reconstruction filter in the DAC. Having a sampling rate of 96 kHz helps to alleviate some of these problems.
"However, there is no free lunch. It turns out that a filter is needed when data sampled at 44.1Khz is taken into a domain of 11.29Mhz. We should perhaps have expected it, since those tones at 44.1Khz minus the audio signal are still there. But tools to design digital filters are commonly available and it is not difficult to design a digital filter that can sit between the 44.1Khz and the much higher (256x higher) 11.29Mhz and remove the aliases as needed."
LOL!!!, the TANSTAAFL principle indeed! Brings back some memories. I disagree though, making an interpolation filter from 20 kHz to 22.05 kHz is IME difficult and there will be trade-offs. Having a sampling rate of 96 kHz helps to alleviate some of these problems.
"They were admitting to the fact that something about the audiophile ear was superior to the instrumentation and the design procedures."
The above comment relates to delta sigma measuring great but sounding poorly to the "audiophile ear". However, there are many delta sigma architectures with known limitations (limit cycles, amplification of out-off band quantization noise, instability...) Delta sigma modulators are highly non-linear and AFAIK are currently an open research topic. MASH multi-bit architectures have some nice properties BTW.
"Alternatively, we may conclude that group delay is not relevant and rather choose to optimize linearity of phase, which is easy in a FIR filter, but hard in an IIR filter."
Yup.
"Therefore, in a non-dispersive filter the phase change with frequency must be linear (making its derivative constant). This is the origin of the often used phrase ‘linear phase filter’ because a linear phase filter is free from dispersion."
Yup.
"In those systems where surround sound channels are separated into different DACs, then differences in group delay are very problematical: the sound stage is totally destroyed by large differences of group delay."
I guess this would be a problem when recording. But how about calibrating the group delay of all the channels...
"Pre-ringing of the symmetric FIR filter seems bizarre: it is as though the bell knows when you are going to strike it, and makes a little ringing sound before it is hit."
Pre-ringing seems like what it's commonly referred to as filter transcient response. Most filters have this. Once transcients die out, the pre-ringing deal should not be an issue.
"So called “Minimum Phase” filters (sometimes called “Minimum Delay” filters) are those filters that are designed to show virtually no pre-ringing (and consequently they tend to have low group delay because the maximum values in the impulse responce are near the beginning of the filter). They do not have linear phase, and they consequently have dispersion."
Which sucks!
"We must deal with that, since a great deal of our digital music is encoded at 44.1KHz (or 48KHz on DVD), but in the coming years, as sample rates extend to 192KHz and beyond, this problem becomes much less severe."
Mmmm... Having a sampling rate of 96 kHz helps to alleviate some of these problems.
"The INVICTA already takes advantage of this and simplifies the filtering process if you provide a source at 88.2KHz or higher."
Hopefully not only the INVICTA does this.
And the options available for the INVICTA's reconstruction filter look good...
Since this is DAC talk, here's a dood talking about DACs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1CkyrDIGzOE)
Considering the people usually don't notice when a whole extra A/D-D/A stage is inserted into the signal chain I'd love to see those blind tests he mentioned replicated...
Also, if that's true then shouldn't SACD and DSD sound bad as well?
Linky: http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf
I had to deal with certain issues when I had to re-design a second order 1-bit delta sigma in commercial ASIC...
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Thanks for linking this article Mike. IMHO it was a very good read. My comments bellow:
I think all that's probably just Tooth Fairy science (http://skepdic.com/toothfairyscience.html). The math is real and the measurements are real, but no one's been able to demonstrate that people can hear the difference either way.
Linky: http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf
I had to deal with certain issues when I had to re-design a second order 1-bit delta sigma in commercial ASIC...
Hey! No actual science around here! ;D That's just what the <sneer>Audiophiles</sneer> say..
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A thought about the DAC market lately, particularly computer/USB DACs:
The pressing issue for the hundreds of high-end audio companies out there is the bottom line - but products that last aren't good for the bottom line. People own the same maggies and esl's from 20 years ago, amp/pre-amp tech hasn't made leaps and bounds recently, nor have sources like turntables - many users out there seem fine with their old turntables from what I've seen.
Enter the planned obsolescence of the computer DAC. Inextricably linked to a technology that changes substantially every few years, it ensures that these companies will be able to sell their newest versions, optimized for the newest tech, every couple years. Insecure audiophiles must upgrade to stay with the times, as their current jitter measurements/upsampling/sampling rate/dsd capability just can't keep pace.
Sure, some makers have modular designs and promise drop-in upgrades as technology develops, but more often than not people just sell of their old model for the newer, shinier design. Thus is born the newest revolving door in the audio market.
It's kind of unfortunate - I'm currently on this merry-go-round myself, thinking it will take me somewhere different even though there's nothing wrong with where I am. I think I'm going to stop spending money on this particular area of the hobby for a while.
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That's the same feeling I've had about DACs. I'm happy with my Berkeley and Wavelink converter. If I want a change, I can use a different digital filter, and it sounds like a new DAC. I've lost more money on depreciation of digital gear than any other part of my rig, and I don't think it's worth continually upgrading the DAC once I've found something I'm satisfied with.
A few friends who've been along this audio trip with me have told me that I'm done, and I've recently come to agree. Would still love to pick up a Balancing Act and HD800 someday.
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That guy who was selling Invictas on Agon really does seem to have more than one. He sold off one and had another up the very next day. I decided to take a chance protected by Amex + Paypal. This time he did send me a SN #, and Mark Mallinson says it checks out fine. I just made an offer @ the asking price.
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According to UPS, my Concero is sitting in its facility in Ontario, CA (less than 30 miles away) waiting to clear Customs, and should be delivered tomorrow.
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That guy who was selling Invictas on Agon really does seem to have more than one. He sold off one and had another up the very next day. I decided to take a chance protected by Amex + Paypal. This time he did send me a SN #, and Mark Mallinson says it checks out fine. I just made an offer @ the asking price.
Shipping from Japan seems like it costs an arm and a body, though! Jesus....
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Shipping from Japan seems like it costs an arm and a body, though! Jesus....
$135 to NYC via post or $200 FedEx. Offer's been accepted and Invicta BOUGHT! :)p1
My plan was to buy this brand new @ $4K, then much later on...$4K Devore Fidelity speakers and some amplifier, probably First Watt.
Now I've nabbed a pair of $5K Devores on Agon for $1.5K (scratched up)...plus an Invicta for $3K, so things are still lookiing like WIN.
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Shipping from Japan seems like it costs an arm and a body, though! Jesus....
$135 to NYC via post or $200 FedEx. Offer's been accepted and Invicta BOUGHT! :)p1
My plan was to buy this brand new @ $4K, then much later on...$4K Devore Fidelity speakers and some amplifier, probably First Watt.
Now I've nabbed a pair of $5K Devores on Agon for $1.5K (scratched up)...plus an Invicta for $3K, so things are still lookiing like WIN.
Scratches don't affect sound quality, and if they start to bug you, adevore is in Brooklyn and can probably recommend somebody to refinish them.
Well played! :)p7
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Congrats!
Is there a reason you were interested in devore specifically? Did you hear them at Axpona?
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Thanks, I actually first heard them @ an audio salon here. Only speaker to ever leave an impression on me. It doesn't extend across the line up though, as I found out this weekend. Previously, I had only heard the Gibbon series (which is what I bought), but this weekend I went in to glean wisdom on amplifier selection, and I heard the Orangutan series for the first time. Lackluster at best, kind of like the HD650 of the Devore line up.
And burnspbesq, yeah I was hoping to refinish them one way or another. I'll definitely have a look into that.
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Thanks, I actually first heard them @ an audio salon here. Only speaker to ever leave an impression on me. It doesn't extend across the line up though, as I found out this weekend. Previously, I had only heard the Gibbon series (which is what I bought), but this weekend I went in to glean wisdom on amplifier selection, and I heard the Orangutan series for the first time. Lackluster at best, kind of like the HD650 of the Devore line up.
And burnspbesq, yeah I was hoping to refinish them one way or another. I'll definitely have a look into that.
I hope Devore didn't get whacked too badly by Sandy. Haven't seen any photos or video, but the Brooklyn Navy Yard was the highest level evac zone.
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I hope Devore didn't get whacked too badly by Sandy. Haven't seen any photos or video, but the Brooklyn Navy Yard was the highest level evac zone.
Ha. Can't say I haven't thought about that already. And the guy who I bought it from hasn't been heard from since Saturday. :-Z Everything's fishy! Even the guy I bought the Invicta from had a Paypal address linked to a retail audio store in Thailand, but he's been pretty responsive, very helpful and has already shipped. So I'm not too worried, especially since I'm backed by PP/Amex.
Sandy-wise, transportation in NYC has come to a total halt, that's the worst of it where I am, and apart from that, just plenty of crushed cars and downed trees.
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It's insured shipping that costs that much.
Just ordered a Mytek for the office. 30 day return policy on DAC's is good stuff.
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Ahoy fellow pirate DACheads,
I'm looking for a current production DAC in the $300 price range. What options are out there, that you guys would say would have either the best sound quality, or interesting technology behind it?
Some options I've read which have positive feedback:
- Cambridge DacMagic (Revised Edition)
- Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11
- Peachtree DAC-iT
- Ross Martin PCM1794: http://www.rossmartinaudio.com/
- Schiit Bifrost
It'd be great if there's some SQ improvement over the gamma2. I'd be interested to learn more on how the tech has advanced over the last few years.
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Not really. Some of them may be going backwards. The only criticism I have of the Gamma2 is that it lacks resolution. Otherwise I love the tone, frequency extension, and dynamic power of it.
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How about that Micromega MyDac for $399? Anyone with experience with that?
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When it comes to budget DACs, I found that the sonic gap between $100 DACs and <$500 DACs...negligible.
If you don't need any additional features, ODAC was really nice for the price.
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I've seen the Micromega Mydac on Agon, but haven't seen any feedback on it.
Seems like some of the recent NOS DACs have gotten complaints about glare. I was looking at 6moons' review of the Valab/TeraDak NOS DAC, and they were mentioning a lot of excitement about it on HF, but the reviewer felt the depth was inferior to his Audio Note comparison DAC, and complained about glare. There seem to be a legion of supporters about the Bifrost, but I'm unclear on the tech behind the Bifrost, and if it (or similarly priced contemporary DACs) are heading in the right direction.
I can try giving the O2 DAC another try. I tried plugging it in via USB but my computer wasn't able to output through it.
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Darko did a review of the Micromega Mydac the other day http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2012/10/micromega-mydac-review/ for your viewing pleasure
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There's a guy at ComputerAudiophile who seems to be pretty happy with his new MyDAC.
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/micromega-mydac-13737/
It's almost double the price constraint you specified, but my (very favorable) initial impressions of the Resonessence Concero are in the big Invicta thread at HF.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/559407/review-resonessence-labs-invicta-new-high-end-dac-amp-playback-system/165#post_8831611
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Congrats on the Concero, if it's anything like the Invicta I would indeed enjoy it more than the Ayre.
I just bought a NAD (again, curiosity in this price range) so hopefully I'll get a chance to do a mini shootout next week if there are any differences. The Mytek kills it on features, so it will be interesting to see what the lay of the land is on the sonic front.
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Right now I'm leaning towards the Ross Martin with a cap upgrade, based on favorable Gearslutz commentary. So far, I haven't been led astray from any GS recommendations... I've discovered the pro guys tend to be pretty good about VFM.
I've done past D/A cap upgrades with Blackgates, but I'm wondering if there are any other solid performers I should be looking out for.
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Congrats on the Concero, if it's anything like the Invicta I would indeed enjoy it more than the Ayre.
I just bought a NAD (again, curiosity in this price range) so hopefully I'll get a chance to do a mini shootout next week if there are any differences. The Mytek kills it on features, so it will be interesting to see what the lay of the land is on the sonic front.
My only beef with the Concero so far is on the visual aesthetics. The teeny-weeny black box just looks silly next to the hulking mass of the Bryston. Like a Shih Tzu trying to pick a fight with a Great Pyrenees, or a Fiat 500 Abarth challenging a M5 at a traffic light. Not sure what, if anything, I might do about that. If I could get Ken at ALO to put the guts of a Rx Mk3 in a Pan Am-size box, that might be ideal. Or if the Ortofon amp1 (which I find to be seriously cool-looking) has sound to match its looks, that would also be an option.
Yeah, I guess it's Superficial Friday at my house. :vomit:
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Right now I'm leaning towards the Ross Martin with a cap upgrade, based on favorable Gearslutz commentary. So far, I haven't been led astray from any GS recommendations... I've discovered the pro guys tend to be pretty good about VFM.
I've done past D/A cap upgrades with Blackgates, but I'm wondering if there are any other solid performers I should be looking out for.
what size caps do you need? for 'lytics, those with cap fetishes rate the Elna RFS/Silmic: http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll (http://www.digikey.com/scripts/dksearch/dksus.dll). i use them when possible.
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Not sure, I will need to contact Ross Martin and see what upgrade options are available. purrin posted a positive comment about the upgraded Bifrost, so I'm narrowing the field to the Bifrost and Ross Martin now. There's a nice price for a used Bifrost on HF, so I'm hoping to get that one, though I think I'm late to the door.
I'll ask about the Elna RFS/Silmic caps, ty for the reference.
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A thought about the DAC market lately, particularly computer/USB DACs:
Enter the planned obsolescence of the computer DAC. Inextricably linked to a technology that changes substantially every few years, it ensures that these companies will be able to sell their newest versions, optimized for the newest tech, every couple years. Insecure audiophiles must upgrade to stay with the times, as their current jitter measurements/upsampling/sampling rate/dsd capability just can't keep pace.
Sure, some makers have modular designs and promise drop-in upgrades as technology develops, but more often than not people just sell of their old model for the newer, shinier design. Thus is born the newest revolving door in the audio market.
It's kind of unfortunate - I'm currently on this merry-go-round myself, thinking it will take me somewhere different even though there's nothing wrong with where I am. I think I'm going to stop spending money on this particular area of the hobby for a while.
Honestly I don't think there's that much malice behind it. "Let's come up with new tech a year from now and screw em!". Think about where CD transport tech was 5 years ago. What's changed? Pretty much nothing. Cirrus or BB chips might now be AD or Sabre chips. That's pretty much it. Same ole' Philips mechanism, any improvements are likely to be in jitter suppression or output stages.
What's changed with USB DACs in that same time period? Everything. dB Audio Labs is still selling a USB DAC that has to be used with the right cable and a Mac Mini from the right year because the 16/44 adaptive mode USB tech they are using is so jitter prone and so pathetic that even a Macbook instead of a Mini will ruin it, according to the designers.
Early PCM270x based USB DACs are similarly bad. I honestly don't think it was the manufacturers all getting together to screw people out of their money by slowly but surely improving USB tech, I think the improvements came naturally with new designs and new software that have allowed USB to be far more capable than the designers of the 2.0 spec (or Microsoft) probably ever imagined.
I don't think Gordon Rankin created Streamlength as a means to screw everyone with an adaptive mode DAC, I think he was trying to push the performance envelope forward.
Further, nobody is making you throw anything out and buy a new DAC. Let's say the Spectral SDR-2000 Pro is your favorite DAC in the world, all you need is to spend anywhere from $150-2000 on a USB>S/Pdif converter, and you can use it until the end of time. Same for anyone with a Levinson 30.6 or any other legendary vintage DAC.
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To put it another way: the digital realm is generally where the technological advances are being made (that are incidentally beneficial to audiophilia) - thus companies focusing on an evolving market have a renewable revenue stream from what amounts to planned obsolescence, even if they don't have more advanced tech at the time of the release.
I'm not ascribing malevolence to the decision of an increasing amount of companies to join this market - just business practices that that emphasize continually making money with a minimum of real R&D.
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Hey Dave and Tari,
Any experience or impressions of the Perpetual P1A+P3A+P3B system or the Wavelength Proton? I've found used specimens of both for good prices. They are about $100-200 more than what I was looking for, but if the performance differential is that much better than something like a Bifrost, I figure it could be worth the investment.
Fwiw, this DAC will be paired with a KGSSHV. I figure the KGSSHV will make a quality source worthwhile.
Someone also said good things about the PCM1794A recently to me, so I'm still considering a blinged out Ross Martin. One thing I don't like about the Bifrost or Proton is the lack of balanced outputs.
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I really liked the Proton, but can't compare it to the Bifrost. There has also been a whole lot released since then at lower price points with some nice features. The Proton was smooth but pretty transparent, reminded me a lot of the Antelope Zodiac, and is solid for the used price you're implying.
Never tried the Perpetual.
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That's strong praise if the Proton was comparable to the Zodiac. I would have jumped on the Proton already if it had balanced connections. Also read some folks say the Mhdt Havana was nicer than the Proton, but I don't have experience with the Havana and am a bit leery about tube DACs so I'm having some decision anxiety. Wish the Gungnir was closer to $500 or that would've been a done deal for me.
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Heard the EMM DAC2 (not DAC2X) today. Direct comparison with PWD2 running 2.20 firmware + Filter 4. My modded Marantz as the transport using coax. Output SE into EC S7 and HD800. Output BAL into T2DIY and my modded Jades.
PWD2 creamed it. Immediately noticeable upon the initial sounds emanating from the headphones. This not even funny. It's not bad. Clean output. Severely lacking in resolution and micro-dynamics (for the price). Zero depth in headstage. And I mean ZERO. Like nada. Like ZERO. Like super wide, but behind my eyes and no more forward than the center of my head. Don't know how this thing got priced near $10k originally. Truly disturbing. So much so that I am still disturbed. Belongs on wall of shame.
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Interesting. DAC2X was (and is) on my radar but not unless I get a money-back demo. Supposedly the DAC2 was a known lemon, with the much cheaper Meitner DAC outclassing it by a country mile (in DAC terms.)
That's not to take away from the PWD MKII - it is definitely a giant killer, especially at it's available price point (2K)
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Curious about its internals now. I to like open up stuff and see. Sometimes the balanced outputs are an afterthought with these "TOTL" DACs. It's not uncommon to see them cheat and use op-amps for the balanced outs. Though Anax got a good listen on the SE outputs and felt the same way. I saw his special "WTF is this POS" smile. He even turned red.
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Also heard the AudioQuest DragonFly DAC/amp. V-moda M100 and Paradox. Surprisingly competent. Don't expect it to sound like good desktop gear though.
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I've read that some of the more recent EMM gear was questionable, though the DAC2X seems to have favorable impressions on the review circuit.
Given how much the Berkeley improved with a proper SPDIF/USB interface, which was consistent with dozens of comments on Computer Audiophile, I wonder how many other high-end DACs have poor jitter reduction. I could be misremembering, but I think I remember a renowned mastering engineer tell me that jitter is typically associated with cold and flat sounding audio reproduction.
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To put it another way: the digital realm is generally where the technological advances are being made (that are incidentally beneficial to audiophilia) - thus companies focusing on an evolving market have a renewable revenue stream from what amounts to planned obsolescence, even if they don't have more advanced tech at the time of the release.
I'm not ascribing malevolence to the decision of an increasing amount of companies to join this market - just business practices that that emphasize continually making money with a minimum of real R&D.
That's true. The general reduction in cost, and the availability of drop-in solutions like XMOS have also allowed for companies that otherwise probably wouldn't have attempted to release a SOTA USB DAC to throw their hat in the ring. Audio Research for example put a huge amount of time and effort into the USB tech in the DAC8, and it seems to have been entirely wasted. Nobody is even talking about that DAC anymore.
The other area that seems to be evolving at around the same rate as DACs is in digital amplifier technology. Linear Class A or A/B amps aren't that different than they were 5 years ago, much like CD players. Class D amps on the other hand have changed quite a bit. I still think ICEpower blows, but the UcD amps are improving, and supposedly (haven't heard any) the Hypex Ncore amps are serious business.
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Hey Dave and Tari,
Any experience or impressions of the Perpetual P1A+P3A+P3B system or the Wavelength Proton? I've found used specimens of both for good prices. They are about $100-200 more than what I was looking for, but if the performance differential is that much better than something like a Bifrost, I figure it could be worth the investment.
Fwiw, this DAC will be paired with a KGSSHV. I figure the KGSSHV will make a quality source worthwhile.
Someone also said good things about the PCM1794A recently to me, so I'm still considering a blinged out Ross Martin. One thing I don't like about the Bifrost or Proton is the lack of balanced outputs.
I'm not a fan of the Perpetual DAC, or the Crystal CS4397 that's in it. Perpetual was supposed to take on the world with an assault of new digital tech. Instead, they imploded. I would expect the Schiit DAC to school it. Of course it doesn't help that they were run by AV123's Mark Schifter (rhymes with grifter) - a disgusting human being convicted of multiple counts of fraud. Even if the Perpetual DAC was any good, which it isn't, I wouldn't buy one just on principle.
I'm also not a fan of the BB PCM179x DACs. I think the AD1955, AKM4399, and WM8741 are all much better.
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Ugh. Thanks for the warning on the Perpetual, going to steer clear of it now. I was a bit concerned given the company implosion and the subsequent lack of support.
Are there any other current production $300ish options around a Bifrost level of quality with balanced outputs or is the Bifrost it (with respect to overall quality)? I've seen used MiniMax and Proton units in $500s which could be okay, too, but I wish they were balanced. The only thing I can think of is the Cambridge DacMagic which I've read lukewarm feedback about. What do you think about the Ross Martin bare beast? There's some scattered positive commentary about it.
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The only one that comes to mind is the Matrix Mini-i. I haven't heard it, but its generally very well regarded for the money. I don't think I've ever seen one compared to the Bifrost though, so it may be no contest. It uses two AD1955 DACs and two OPA2134s for its output. I *think* it's a true balanced output as opposed to a phase splitter, but I'm not positive.
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Thanks for the suggestion. I'll do some research on it. I've seen a few of the Matrix Mini-i units on eBay, but not much discussion about it.
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I'm not sure about current production but the old DacMagic has been a solid 2nd DAC for me for going on quite a few years now. The amount of input and output options alone make it a great DAC to have around. Sound quality is good, it's a solid performer. Anyone with serious critique is just picking it apart or comparing it to something out of it's league. It's not a giant killer, but at the prices you can get one for used these days I'd confidently say you could not go wrong.
I've often considered the recommended power supply upgrade, but I've never gotten around to doing it.
I've never heard the Bifrost so I can't compare what they sound like. Perhaps on SQ the Bifrost is going to have a leg up, it really should considering it was released considerable later, but it's going to come up short on versatility of connections.
As for the current production, the plus model, I've never given it much of a look as I'm not that interested in adding an amp and HPO to my DAC.
Ugh. Thanks for the warning on the Perpetual, going to steer clear of it now. I was a bit concerned given the company implosion and the subsequent lack of support.
Are there any other current production $300ish options around a Bifrost level of quality with balanced outputs or is the Bifrost it (with respect to overall quality)? I've seen used MiniMax and Proton units in $500s which could be okay, too, but I wish they were balanced. The only thing I can think of is the Cambridge DacMagic which I've read lukewarm feedback about. What do you think about the Ross Martin bare beast? There's some scattered positive commentary about it.
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I'm not sure about current production but the old DacMagic has been a solid 2nd DAC for me for going on quite a few years now. The amount of input and output options alone make it a great DAC to have around. Sound quality is good, it's a solid performer. Anyone with serious critique is just picking it apart or comparing it to something out of it's league. It's not a giant killer, but at the prices you can get one for used these days I'd confidently say you could not go wrong.
I've often considered the recommended power supply upgrade, but I've never gotten around to doing it.
I've never heard the Bifrost so I can't compare what they sound like. Perhaps on SQ the Bifrost is going to have a leg up, it really should considering it was released considerable later, but it's going to come up short on versatility of connections.
As for the current production, the plus model, I've never given it much of a look as I'm not that interested in adding an amp and HPO to my DAC.
Ugh. Thanks for the warning on the Perpetual, going to steer clear of it now. I was a bit concerned given the company implosion and the subsequent lack of support.
Are there any other current production $300ish options around a Bifrost level of quality with balanced outputs or is the Bifrost it (with respect to overall quality)? I've seen used MiniMax and Proton units in $500s which could be okay, too, but I wish they were balanced. The only thing I can think of is the Cambridge DacMagic which I've read lukewarm feedback about. What do you think about the Ross Martin bare beast? There's some scattered positive commentary about it.
For non-critical applications, the DACMagic is still a good option. We have one in the family room, between the AppleTV and the Arcam Solo. It's been there for three years, and it does what I need it to do with no drama whatsoever. I see no need to look at replacing it, unless (1) it breaks or (2) I can get a >96/24 digital output from a future iteration of the AppleTV.
That said, it's not a candidate to get moved into my office where the serious listening gets done.
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Just got two new DACs in, the NAD and the Mytek, to compete for office duty. The Mytek is tiny, seriously the smallest DAC I've ever had, though it is still hefty. The NAD is about 4 times bigger and heavier. Having trouble connecting with my Mac at the moment, but this should be fun.
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The NAD M51? I really want one of those.
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Yep, M51. By the same token that the Liquid Fire is "too light to be good," the NAD is too heavy to not be.
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Let us know how it goes. :) I haven't seen too many for sale which is a good thing.
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Out of curiosity has anyone heard either of these DACS side by side? Anedio D2/Resonessence Concero/Schiit Gungnir/NAD M51?
Love to hear impressions among the few!
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Out of curiosity has anyone heard either of these DACS side by side? Anedio D2/Resonessence Concero/Schiit Gungnir/NAD M51?
Love to hear impressions among the few!
I suppose that at some point I should borrow a Gungnir and throw it into the octagon with my Concero. But frankly, I'm having too much fun with the Concero right now for that to be a priority. :)p7
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Out of curiosity has anyone heard either of these DACS side by side? Anedio D2/Resonessence Concero/Schiit Gungnir/NAD M51?
Love to hear impressions among the few!
I suppose that at some point I should borrow a Gungnir and throw it into the octagon with my Concero. But frankly, I'm having too much fun with the Concero right now for that to be a priority. :)p7
I do sorta look forward to that! And good to hear, though a quick update of how its changed over the last 5 days on the hf thread would be cool!
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Out of curiosity has anyone heard either of these DACS side by side? Anedio D2/Resonessence Concero/Schiit Gungnir/NAD M51?
Love to hear impressions among the few!
That's quite the spread on price range!
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Have both the NAD and Mytek up and running. The Mytek is way more complicated than normal DAC setup on MAC (which never need drivers) due to the DSD deal. The manual leaves a step out of setup via the USB 2.0/192/DSD input, so it was a bit maddening until I just figured it out. Spent last night listening to both separately, then compared the headout on the Mytek to the BA. The Mytek really sounds good enough as a one-box. Until you switch to the BA.
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Thoughts on the M51?
I'm always sorta kinda keeping an eye out for one used, just because I'm curious. I just hate the fact that the thing costs $500 less to Australian folks.
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Too early to tell. Definitely not bad.
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Out of curiosity has anyone heard either of these DACS side by side? Anedio D2/Resonessence Concero/Schiit Gungnir/NAD M51?
Love to hear impressions among the few!
I suppose that at some point I should borrow a Gungnir and throw it into the octagon with my Concero. But frankly, I'm having too much fun with the Concero right now for that to be a priority. :)p7
I do sorta look forward to that! And good to hear, though a quick update of how its changed over the last 5 days on the hf thread would be cool!
Busy today. Will try to post an update tomorrow. I may also bring the Arcam rDAC home from the office this weekend and do some comparative listening, but I think that may force me to fundamentally rethink the office system.
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Interesting new DAC from Auralic called the VEGA. The master clock is a claimed 82 femtoseconds, it uses 32/1.5Mhz upsampling, and supports all DSD streaming modes. There's six filter modes and digital volume control that somehow is supposed to be loss free. The price is $3500, which is right in the middle of where most of the action is happening right now. Should give April Music something to think about. The first Auralic DAC was interesting but somewhat flawed, it will be interesting to see how far they've improved in a fairly short amount of time.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LNlBx5T0eX4/UIm27HjxiNI/AAAAAAAAKio/NXEwaHi8Kis/s1600/vegatop.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IVmIupsR9HY/UIm3G7hcd0I/AAAAAAAAKi4/ty0jiKvNNlE/s1600/vegainner.jpg)
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Very sharp looking, matches the Taurus. I know the guys at Audeze really like their amp.
Noir boards seem to be all the rage these days.
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Out of curiosity has anyone heard either of these DACS side by side? Anedio D2/Resonessence Concero/Schiit Gungnir/NAD M51?
Love to hear impressions among the few!
That's quite the spread on price range!
Well the Invicta' is really out of my price reach so I'd thought I'd see how the younger brother works out. If not, D2, Gungnir and M51 then
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Out of curiosity has anyone heard either of these DACS side by side? Anedio D2/Resonessence Concero/Schiit Gungnir/NAD M51?
Love to hear impressions among the few!
That's quite the spread on price range!
Well the Invicta' is really out of my price reach so I'd thought I'd see how the younger brother works out. If not, D2, Gungnir and M51 then
If I were you, I would email Mark Mallinson at Resonessence and see if you can get 14- or 30-day return privilege on a Concero.
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Probably should do that when the Paradox is in. Thanks for reminding me about that.
Also, NAD M51 is retailing for 1.5K USD / 1.8k SGD in Singapore!
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Interesting Q&A with Gordon Rankin.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-wavelength-audios-gordon-rankin
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Interesting stuff, Rankin is the real deal. I didn't know he was the designer of the Dragonfly. Proton is the only model of his I've owned, and it's solid for the price point. Look forward to seeing what he's so excited about that's in the pipeline.
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I am wondering if my iMac's usb ports provide enough, good juice to properly power the ODAC?
I know people have mentioned it sounding better when given the power.
Apple says the usb 2.0 ports on my computer provide 'up to 500ma at 5v.'
How does this play into the ODAC?
There is one item in my system profiler called UAC1 DAC, and it says it requires 500ma, and is being fed 500ma, but is it possible that it needs even more power?
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Shamelessly re-posted from head-case.
ICE KING Dac. King needs his Queen :)
http://www.coconut-audio.com/DAC.htm
http://youtu.be/CPCl_ez0Hio
(I am a fail at embedding y00tube)
(http://www.coconut-audio.com/special/IceKingDAC.jpg)
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Interesting Q&A with Gordon Rankin.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-wavelength-audios-gordon-rankin
So this begs the question for me. Why does asynchronous usb end up costing the consumer so much? It's freaking 2012(3) here. You're telling me for a good and proper asynchronous connection we are at the mercy of this guy and his licensing?
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Interesting Q&A with Gordon Rankin.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-wavelength-audios-gordon-rankin
So this begs the question for me. Why does asynchronous usb end up costing the consumer so much? It's freaking 2012(3) here. You're telling me for a good and proper asynchronous connection we are at the mercy of this guy and his licensing?
You have a problem with him getting a fair return on his investment in R&D?
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Very interested in hearing your thoughts on the M51, Tari.
ICE KING Dac. King needs his Queen :)
While I prefer Patrick's slightly more "subtle" performance art (ie. the stuff that could actually be taken seriously by some audiophiles), I gotta admit that DAC's supposed chassis is absolutely hilarious.
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Interesting Q&A with Gordon Rankin.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-wavelength-audios-gordon-rankin
So this begs the question for me. Why does asynchronous usb end up costing the consumer so much? It's freaking 2012(3) here. You're telling me for a good and proper asynchronous connection we are at the mercy of this guy and his licensing?
You have a problem with him getting a fair return on his investment in R&D?
Entry level is something like a $400 buy in for a wavelength licensed SPDIF to USB converter the Halide Bridge. Wavelength's DACs start at $1,750 for the brick. Look at the guts of the thing. I dunno - You tell me. Am I just a cheap ass? I've no doubt what he's done for computer audio is awesome. I just think that he's capitalized pretty well off of it from the looks of things. He's no Nelson Pass that's for sure. FWIW I don't believe any of it is snake oil. I just have a hard time shelling out for the technology when they clock in at the above prices.
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/905lis.2.jpg)
I am pretty sure The Bridge used to be $450 back when I bought it originally!
(http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/pics/halide_bridge.jpg)
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The first two statements in your latest comment are both incorrect.
Entry level for a USB DAC that incorporates Gordon's Streamlength async technology is $249 (Dragonfly).
The lowest priced Wavelength USB DAC is $900 (Proton).
In any event, if you think the prices for products that incorporate Gordon's IP are too high, there's a simple answer, and I'm sure you know what it is.
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It sucks that Streamlength is the only asynch option doesn't it? Way too expensive! Oh wait...
(http://www.needledoctor.com/M2TECH-hiFace-Two-large.jpg)
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After having that asynch Wavelink in my house for a few weeks, and affixing it to my non-asynch Zodiac in a number of ways, I realized that there are many paths to the mountain top.
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After having that asynch Wavelink in my house for a few weeks, and affixing it to my non-asynch Zodiac in a number of ways, I realized that there are many paths to the mountain top.
Did your Invicta show up? How are you liking it so far?
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No, not yet, Resonessence kept it for some extra time to run a slew of tests, now it's all better and should be here Monday according to tracking. Reading my last post over, I was too vague I think. I meant to say it didn't make much difference having Streamlength code in the chain, at least with the Zodiac for whatever reason.
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If anyone else is running DSD over USB here's (http://filepost.com/files/4cde6fd4/T1_Malena.dsf/) a file to check out.
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Got it yesterday, stuck it in my speaker rig, it was amazing. Speakers disappeared. Took it through my reference tracks, chewed 'em up & spit 'em out w/ aplomb.
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Sounds like the Invicta to me. Not even much to write about because it's just a good, transparent DAC.
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Yup.
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Yer killin me. Tried it with phones yet?
I wonder if Mark would take back my Concero and give me a credit toward the purchase of an Invicta.
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Only the UM3X. Even that sounded good/better. It's a very intuitive unit to use too. It's exactly what I wanted in a DAC/transport experience. Unobtrusive screen, easy to use/navigate, and just amazing sonics. Tonight I will try it with the SR-003 I have here courtesy of Sforza (off to your forwarding service after tonight's experiment.)
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burn yer killing me too! Still eagerly waiting for your updated impressions!
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Only the UM3X. Even that sounded good/better. It's a very intuitive unit to use too. It's exactly what I wanted in a DAC/transport experience. Unobtrusive screen, easy to use/navigate, and just amazing sonics. Tonight I will try it with the SR-003 I have here courtesy of Sforza (off to your forwarding service after tonight's experiment.)
If you like how they sound with the Invicta (and if it helps with your DAC comparison), feel free to keep them a bit longer. I'm not in a rush to get them. I wonder if and how the roll-off at the extreme frequencies will be affected. 'Grats on getting it btw :)
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Roll-off isn't affected much unfortunately, it also shows up it's other weakness. On a positive note, pianos are very credible off the Invicta, and Tari, I think you play the piano right? You're probably a better judge of that than I, but that's one thing the Zodiac didn't get as right as the Invicta does. Layering of the sound is beautiful, with headphones too but more so with speakers. My instinct says speakers leverage the Invicta's capabilities much more than headphones can, but eventually I will get another HD800 or HE-6 that might prove otherwise.
Tari, what filter(s) do you use?
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burn yer killing me too! Still eagerly waiting for your updated impressions!
Sorry, but there are only a finite number of synonyms for "awesome" and "giant-killer" in English.
Je peut parler Francais si tu veux.
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Linear phase apodizing primarily, now and again I'll use slow roll. Resonessence had a page comparing how the various filters affect the measurements, but I haven't been able to find it since.
If there's two things I think I know, it's the sound of a piano and the male voice. I'm not sure if that makes me a better judge of it when it comes to gear reproduction but I'm certainly more attentive than the average listener to it.
The simplest way for me to describe it would be that sometimes the Zodiac sounded slightly as if the soft pedal was being used even if it wasn't. Super minor but occasionally noticeable when directly compared to other DACs.
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After a quick cycle through, I settled on l.p. apodizing too this Monday.
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Resonessence had a page comparing how the various filters affect the measurements, but I haven't been able to find it since.
Is this the page you're referring to?
http://resonessencelabs.com/details-of-iir-and-apodizing-filters/
FWIW, on the Concero I find myself narrowly preferring the IIR filter over the apodizing filter in most cases. I think the absence of pre-ringing makes the transient response a little bit crisper, and I like that.
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Won't be keeping the NWD.
No need to start with a warmer source now that I have foam and the Super 7 figured out a bit (tube-rolling and some capacitors soon too).
Tried it, not bad (except for loose Optical input jack and logo light double-stick adhesive visible when on p:8 ).
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CEE TEE,
you actually like the BM DAC1? i thought i was the only one around here.
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@CEE TEE = BM #1 Fanboy! :)p17
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Hi Fish!
After comparing the NWD with the DAC1 using Gilmore Lite, the Super 7 (rolled tubes a few times), and the headphone amp of the Benchmark too...
I found that the DAC1 is the cleaner source (more extension up top / separation overall) and seems to me to only reveal the issues in the HD800. Also, DAC1 does not give a very "analog" or "speaker-like" presentation.
But, I've got the foam and the Super 7 to mitigate those issues. (6kHz and the treble peak). So, having the clean/fast DAC & clean/fast phones with flexibility in presentation and FR in the middle works for me at the moment.
WE MIGHT BE THE ONLY TWO HERE that dig the DAC. DAC1 and HD800 just require a bit o' work to sound gud.
Will have to see if RD can stand my system one of these days... headbang
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CEE TEE,
you actually like the BM DAC1? i thought i was the only one around here.
I had one for a while. It was cool with Grados. If the HD 800 and the QB-9 hadn't come along at about the same time, I might still have it. If I had to go back to it, I wouldn't slit my wrists (but I would get rid of the 800s).
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So I have an itch.
And my wallet is going to collapse in on itself, like a sun turning into a black hole. As in sorry for your wallet.
I'm REALLY wanting a EC Balancing Act with the goodly tubes.
But finding a 'proper' DAC to match up with my HD-800's is the other half of the equation.
Right now I'm running the Headroom UDAC which is fine as far as it goes but is just a bit dated.
So what say those of you who have been down this road?
What DAC's should I consider?
The list gleaned from this thread seem to indicate the;
NAD M51
Perfect wave PWD Mk II
Resonessence Invicta
perhaps the Schiit 'statement' DAC
Any other 'suitable' candidates?
TIA JJ
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Do you have a budget you're considering? The Invicta, for instance, is twice the price of the NAD.
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I was watching Netflix earlier with the Xbox360 optical-ed to the Invicta, and the experience was quite nice. So just now, when I pulled out my Alexi Murdoch CD to play back, I thought I would give it a spin on the 360. A few uninspiring minutes later I changed the cable & CD back to the Cambridge 350C and you know what? There's a "world" of difference between these two transports.
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If the DAC is 'worthy' or 'well suited' then the budget will accommodate it.
I mean since I'm basing this on HD-800's it won't be as $$$$ as 009's and its associated gear… So I figure it'll be a 'bargain'.. Yeah that's what I'm going to keep telling myself… :-00
JJ :'( :)p2
Do you have a budget you're considering? The Invicta, for instance, is twice the price of the NAD.
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Since you are going w/ the HD800 you'd want the most resolving DAC possible otherwise it defeats the point/ability of that transducer. So far, amongst the ones I've heard, that's the PWD mk2 for me. I have yet to hear the Invicta and the Schiit Statement is down the road some time in 2013. I'm also going to be running in the Buffalo DAC against the PWD as well so we'll see. If you can find a deal, the NAD M51 gets you close to 90% of the PWD mk1.
Might want to wait for new updated 2A3 impressions too. ;)
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Thanks for that.
I've been cursed/blessed with an acute sense of hearing my entire life, and I've learned that high resolution, small signal dynamics, low THD, very low noise floor, are all aspects to pay attention to and they usually add up to a wonderful soundstage and a degree of palpability that sucks me into the music. :thumb
So when you say the "NAD M51 gets you close to 90% of the PWD mk1" does this imply that the mkII is yet another cut above, as in the NAD only gets ≈75% of the way to the mkII?
TIA for the help.
JJ
Since you are going w/ the HD800 you'd want the most resolving DAC possible otherwise it defeats the point/ability of that transducer. So far, amongst the ones I've heard, that's the PWD mk2 for me. I have yet to hear the Invicta and the Schiit Statement is down the road some time in 2013. I'm also going to be running in the Buffalo DAC against the PWD as well so we'll see. If you can find a deal, the NAD M51 gets you close to 90% of the PWD mk1.
Might want to wait for new updated 2A3 impressions too. ;)
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I was unimpressed with the MK1 I heard. The MKII is much better. I'm not one for giving percentages, I'll just say they are different DACs and leave it at that. The PWD is also a different DAC every day of the week due to the million different firmware updates.
If you're interested in the PWD MKII, I know a dealer who's selling for a very good price.
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Something like that. Assigning percentages is Pandora's Box. As you know, so are subjective qualitative differences relative to personal preferences therefore the usual grain of salt applies. Though I get a sense we tend to share a similar evaluative criteria. Of course, w/ the mk2 comes other concerns, tuning via firmware (good and bad idea) and driver install required rather than PnP. A good deal on a used PWD mk1 can be cheaper than a new NAD M51 so there's considerations like these to make too.
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I wasn't trying to be mathematically precise, more of a range or magnitude or ∆ of overall change…
As for moving on a new DAC, it might happen sooner than the ECBA but with making changes of this magnitude the big strokes (and I assume that the ECBA is or will be a bigger stroke than any of these DAC's) are better to make 1st. But I could be wrong…
As for the 2A3 being a contendah, that might be a possibility, but time will reveal if the matchup with HD-800's is ideal or not.
Thanks again for the insights.
edit. All of those firmware/software updates and the variability that ensues doesn't exactly invite me to want to even dive into that pool. hmmmmm
JJ
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So I have an itch.
And my wallet is going to collapse in on itself, like a sun turning into a black hole. As in sorry for your wallet.
I'm REALLY wanting a EC Balancing Act with the goodly tubes.
But finding a 'proper' DAC to match up with my HD-800's is the other half of the equation.
Right now I'm running the Headroom UDAC which is fine as far as it goes but is just a bit dated.
So what say those of you who have been down this road?
What DAC's should I consider?
The list gleaned from this thread seem to indicate the;
NAD M51
Perfect wave PWD Mk II
Resonessence Invicta
perhaps the Schiit 'statement' DAC
Any other 'suitable' candidates?
TIA JJ
There's a bunch more. In the sub-$2k range you've got Anedio, Mytek, and the new Benchmark, and there is a fairly steady stream of used QB-9s. South of $1k there are some interesting possibilities such as the PS Audio NuWave, the Gungnir, and the Concero. There are people I trust at HF and CA who speak highly of the $3k T+A DAC8.
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Having owned ARC tube equipment in the past I am familiar with their approach. In the audiophile world their DC8 seems to be bested by other (albeit some are more expensive) DAC's. But it might just be worth a look.
Thanks JJ
So I have an itch.
And my wallet is going to collapse in on itself, like a sun turning into a black hole. As in sorry for your wallet.
I'm REALLY wanting a EC Balancing Act with the goodly tubes.
But finding a 'proper' DAC to match up with my HD-800's is the other half of the equation.
Right now I'm running the Headroom UDAC which is fine as far as it goes but is just a bit dated.
So what say those of you who have been down this road?
What DAC's should I consider?
The list gleaned from this thread seem to indicate the;
NAD M51
Perfect wave PWD Mk II
Resonessence Invicta
perhaps the Schiit 'statement' DAC
Any other 'suitable' candidates?
TIA JJ
There's a bunch more. In the sub-$2k range you've got Anedio, Mytek, and the new Benchmark, and there is a fairly steady stream of used QB-9s. South of $1k there are some interesting possibilities such as the PS Audio NuWave, the Gungnir, and the Concero. There are people I trust at HF and CA who speak highly of the $3k T+A DAC8.
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If the DAC is 'worthy' or 'well suited' then the budget will accommodate it.
I mean since I'm basing this on HD-800's it won't be as $$$$ as 009's and its associated gear… So I figure it'll be a 'bargain'.. Yeah that's what I'm going to keep telling myself… :-00
JJ :'( :)p2
There are a few new interesting choices. 1. Metrum Acoustics Hex. New flagship, 16 "special" R2R chips in dual differential mode, three separate transformers, 24/192 capability including via USB if you opt for the USB input (a modified M2Tech Hiface OEM board). It's NOS, no digital filtering. 2. Pretty much the polar opposite of that DAC, the Auralic Vega. Upsamples all incoming PCM to 32/1.5Mhz and also supports DXD and DSD at 2.8224MHz and 5.6448MHz. Pretty much as future proof as it gets. Both of these are around $3500.
At this point I think the QB-9 and the PWD MK1 are meh, there are better choices. Skip the Arcam DAC as well. I've heard good things about the T+A DAC but I don't have any experience with it. You can pick up a used Series 1 Berkeley Alpha for around $2300 now, but you'll need a converter if you want USB with it. If you want to go a bit old school with PCM1704s you can pick up a Levinson 360S for around $2500. It's a favorite of mine, but not everyone loves it. The Invicta seems to be getting loads of praise. There are tons more choices at $5K and above but I'm not sure if you want to spend that kind of money.
Schiit and CIAudio have new flagship DACs coming soon, and there's also a new one coming from Primare with XMOS based asynch USB.
(http://www.moremusic.nl/primare/dac30-front.jpg)
(http://www.moremusic.nl/primare/dac30-rear.jpg)
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Thanks for those suggestions. :thumb
I'm aware of the 'statement' DAC and amp from Schiit (I'm running the Mojo amp right now and like it) and it might be a while before they 'pop' out.
So far judging from the offerings in the $1-3K range nothing jumps out as a 'wow look at this unit'. Of course this means very little without hearing them.
I guess my next round of investigation is into the $3K-5K range of DACs. I'll peruse the stereophile list just to see what is out there (I have the ipad app :D :wheel:)
JJ
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I realize that cables are a 'touchy' subject.
But have any of you had any experience with Silent Source cables?
JJ
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I have not heard silent cables and you are right that it is not something that has much traction here.
If you're looking at experimenting with cables, you should at least use something the the cableco's loaner program where you can return and swap out as necessary. At the end of the day you will have spent money on just one set of cables, as opposed to buying a pair and selling for half what you payed until you find what you like.
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Yeah that was my plan. I have a friend who uses them and he was going to loan me his set to try. But that was a year ago and it still hasn't happened.
He says they were jaw droppingly good, but HUGELY $$$$$
JJ
ps my review of stereophiles list of dacs is somewhat out of date. They still list the QB9 as A+ and their digital exploration paper is from 2004.
Onward into the fog…
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Yeah that was my plan. I have a friend who uses them and he was going to loan me his set to try. But that was a year ago and it still hasn't happened.
He says they were jaw droppingly good, but HUGELY $$$$$
JJ
ps my review of stereophiles list of dacs is somewhat out of date. They still list the QB9 as A+ and their digital exploration paper is from 2004.
Onward into the fog…
Honestly Stereophile recommended components is barely worth the paper its printed on. They either have a serious thing for Ayre or they are getting paid off. They list Ayre's transports as top shelf and that's just a joke, they aren't that good.
You can find a pretty complete list of the currently available USB DACs here. http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/USB_DAC_Async.htm (http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/USB_DAC_Async.htm)
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Excellent!
That's quite a list of devices. And it looks like enough to keep me busy for a while just doing the research.
Yeah the more I peer into the Stereophile list of equipment the less tied to reality it seems. Oh well, next…
Thanks JJ
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I forgot to mention the new Bryston, but it may be worth a look. The last one was really limited by its terrible USB input and middling Cirrus DACs, they've solved both of those problems with 24/192 Asynch and the use of dual AKM DACs, presumably 4399s. $2400.
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Hi Fish!
After comparing the NWD with the DAC1 using Gilmore Lite, the Super 7 (rolled tubes a few times), and the headphone amp of the Benchmark too...
I found that the DAC1 is the cleaner source (more extension up top / separation overall) and seems to me to only reveal the issues in the HD800. Also, DAC1 does not give a very "analog" or "speaker-like" presentation.
But, I've got the foam and the Super 7 to mitigate those issues. (6kHz and the treble peak). So, having the clean/fast DAC & clean/fast phones with flexibility in presentation and FR in the middle works for me at the moment.
WE MIGHT BE THE ONLY TWO HERE that dig the DAC. DAC1 and HD800 just require a bit o' work to sound gud.
Will have to see if RD can stand my system one of these days... headbang
while on a lovely weekend trip to Lusten with my family, i was looking over the latest Music Direct catalog in front a warm natural fire and a beverage and noticed the number of new DACs in the sub-$2K range. i haven't considered any source changes since the day i bought the DAC1 - i sold my Bassis TT/Naim Phono stage within short time. i didn't opt for the new USB version at the time because i felt paying the extra cash for a nascient tech wasn't worth it - i'm not what you would call an early adopter and can wait to save a few $. i figured that in a few years we'd have something better and cheaper. when i saw the then new asynch MF V-Link article in Stereophile, it measured very well, and i bought one. it sounds much better than a cheap cd spinner as a transport into the DAC1.
it's interesting that the new from PS Audio didn't sway you away from the BM. since buying my DAC1 5 years ago, i haven't been interested in visiting audio salons, but have recently been interested in trying out some different sources. the only HP i'm interested in is the HD800 and play around more with my Fostex. i have a menagerie of amps here that i like to rotate in and out. the PS AUdio peaked my interest. your subjective impressions makes me wonder if that audiophiles are not just chasing "presentation" differences. i need to audition some different sources when i get the HD800.
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Will have to see if RD can stand my system one of these days... headbang
:)p17
the HD800 has a long way to go... But I was surprised how much your first version Anax mods did and I've never heard them with the right amp. I am skeptical it could ever be something I'd really love even if I thought it sounded good but I'm open to it. My hope whenever I listen to something is to like it...
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I wouldn't take that nuwave too seriously as indicative of anything the PWD can do. Would anyone think they would make an entry level DAC sound as good as the PWD for less than a DAC1? Seems like HD700 wishful thinking syndrome.
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Hmmmmmmm
Bryston
dual Crystal CS-4398 DAC chips
discrete Class-A analog circuits
$2k price
Thanks JJ
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I have the 3rd generation mod in my HD800 with the shelf liner/underlayment material. And I await the 'approved' rabid dawg version.
It truly does smooth out the 6K peak and with that it also seems to allow more articulation. Although that may just be a consequence or an artifact of sorts.
What I do know is, it's toe tapping time with long listening sessions (as in ALL day and well into the evening) for multiple days in a row. That wasn't the case with just the ring and diamond with felt etc. That mod WAS much better but this one, takes it to a whole nuther level. Thus my renewed interest in Dacs and amps etc.
JJ
Will have to see if RD can stand my system one of these days... headbang
:)p17
the HD800 has a long way to go... But I was surprised how much your first version Anax mods did and I've never heard them with the right amp. I am skeptical it could ever be something I'd really love even if I thought it sounded good but I'm open to it. My hope whenever I listen to something is to like it...
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With the new mods and fine tuning my chain I've started falling asleep w/ the HD800. Pretty scary as I'm a side sleeper!! Even gave my violinist/drummer friend a listen and he ended up passing out while listening. Had to kick him to get him out of the house. :P
So DAC experts here. What's a more detailed and resolving DAC than the PWD mk2? I can manage the tonal balance via other means, so if there is something else I'd like to know what I should be saving for.
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Now isn't that a change to most folks' perspective. :-00
The litmus test for me was listener fatigue, and now lack of same. Which is reflected in the amount of time they stay on my head. Not to mention the HUGE increase in inner detail and small signal dynamics. Which also leads to added cohesiveness of each 'voice' in the music. And so on…
And yeah increases of resolution and inner detail are king in my book as well… They are addicting.
JJ :thumb :)p2
With the new mods and fine tuning my chain I've started falling asleep w/ the HD800. Pretty scary as I'm a side sleeper!! Even gave my violinist/drummer friend a listen and he ended up passing out while listening. Had to kick him to get him out of the house. :P
So DAC experts here. What's a more detailed and resolving DAC than the PWD mk2? I can manage the tonal balance via other means, so if there is something else I'd like to know what I should be saving for.
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A friend of mine almost strangled himself to death whilst sleeping with headphones. The guy's a roller so he ended up winding the wire on his neck. Woke up with a face in the bluer shade of pale.
As for DACs I'll most likely take apart a vintage one to learn the inner workings and then proceed with some DIY design. Diyaudio has some interesting boards for sale, mainly for combating jitter.
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snip
I can manage the tonal balance via other means, so if there is something else I'd like to know what I should be saving for.
Prithee, do tell about what 'other' tonal balance techniques you use?
Thanks JJ
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There are just too many DAC choices in this price range!
What about the W4S DAC-2? It seemed to be getting a lot of attention for a while there... FOTM? For the price it seems to check all the boxes for me, but I have not heard one yet.
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I wonder if Benchmark is the only manufacturer to have a clipping headroom above 0dBfs, because the explanation for extending it to ~3.5dBfs they include on the BM DAC2 page seems pretty reasonable.
(also kinda funny how they admit that even their "perfect"-measuring DAC1 shows undesirable inter-modulation/clipping effects when given music with loud dynamics...)
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I wonder if Benchmark is the only manufacturer to have a clipping headroom above 0dBfs, because the explanation for extending it to ~3.5dBfs they include on the BM DAC2 page seems pretty reasonable.
(also kinda funny how they admit that even their "perfect"-measuring DAC1 shows undesirable inter-modulation/clipping effects when given music with loud dynamics...)
O nice, finally an admission of guilt. Looks like a great reference to use for a baseline of 'transparency'. Especially if you build a 'reference' amp. facepalm All the times I've read "you just don't like the sound of your headphones!" Whatever dumbass.
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There are just too many DAC choices in this price range!
What about the W4S DAC-2? It seemed to be getting a lot of attention for a while there... FOTM? For the price it seems to check all the boxes for me, but I have not heard one yet.
I have one, but lack any other higher end DAC's to compare it to except for maybe the one built into the Burson Conductor. which I'm still getting accustomed to.
So... I think it sounds good and I like that it has digital volume control, but that's compared to my previous 2 DAC's which were both crappy.
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IIRC someone here mentioned that USB input of the W4S DAC2 wasn't isolated (probably Dave), but otherwise it's a pretty good DAC at the price.
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A friend of mine almost strangled himself to death whilst sleeping with headphones. The guy's a roller so he ended up winding the wire on his neck. Woke up with a face in the bluer shade of pale.
Probably the kind of audio rig that leaves you stone cold...
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With the new mods and fine tuning my chain I've started falling asleep w/ the HD800. Pretty scary as I'm a side sleeper!! Even gave my violinist/drummer friend a listen and he ended up passing out while listening. Had to kick him to get him out of the house. :P
So DAC experts here. What's a more detailed and resolving DAC than the PWD mk2? I can manage the tonal balance via other means, so if there is something else I'd like to know what I should be saving for.
Try the Invicta if you haven't done so already. If that doesn't do it for you, then I think you may have to go way up the ladder, into the Bricasti/MSB neighborhood. There's also Audio Research and Wavelength.
This assumes that you have tried and rejected the Berkeley. If not, that's another possibility.
Audio Revelation carries Berkeley, Bricasti, MSB, and Wavelength. Talk to Jay.
Sunil carries ARC and T+A.
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There's also Meitner.
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IIRC someone here mentioned that USB input of the W4S DAC2 wasn't isolated (probably Dave), but otherwise it's a pretty good DAC at the price.
That might explain the occasional clicking I get. I could hook it up via coaxial or optical as well, but USB just seems a lot more convenient to me unless it starts doing that while I'm playing music (which it hasn't been).
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Clicking is usually failure to lock onto a sample rate. It happens with some DACs when you switch to tracks that use different rates or when your system has been paused and you are re-starting.
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Clicking is usually failure to lock onto a sample rate. It happens with some DACs when you switch to tracks that use different rates or when your system has been paused and you are re-starting.
In my experience it can also be a faulty receiver or sample rate converter chip in the DAC itself. Seen it in a Parasound PDD1500, Rega DAC and a Bel Canto DAC2.
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Hmmmmmmm
Bryston
dual Crystal CS-4398 DAC chips
discrete Class-A analog circuits
$2k price
Thanks JJ
That was the old one, the BDA-1 with the dog crap 16/44 USB and the Crystal DACs. The BDA-2 is so new that I don't think it's even on the Bryston site yet. They only say "32-bit AKM DACs" which I assume are 4399, I'm not sure. The USB input is now 24/192 asynchronous, but I'm not sure what solution they opted for, XMOS most likely but it could also be one of the other guys.
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So DAC experts here. What's a more detailed and resolving DAC than the PWD mk2? I can manage the tonal balance via other means, so if there is something else I'd like to know what I should be saving for.
If you're after maximum detail, you're probably going to want something Sabre based unless you're prepared to spend buku bucks on something made by dCS. The new Auralic VEGA and the Invicta are probably where I would start. The Calyx Femto seems to be a bit of a letdown from what I've heard. Weiss. The Bricasti and the Meitner are into $7K+ territory, not sure you want to go there. The TotalDAC is also in that same range, which is a pure ladder DAC with no I/V conversion. Supposedly extremely good.
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There are just too many DAC choices in this price range!
What about the W4S DAC-2? It seemed to be getting a lot of attention for a while there... FOTM? For the price it seems to check all the boxes for me, but I have not heard one yet.
Meh. It's a different market now then back when the DAC-2 was released, and they haven't really done anything with it. The USB input is a Hiface OEM board, presumably unmodified since multiple reports say the sound over USB is mediocre. The Anedio D2 is likely to eat its lunch for similar money.
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Dave, you use to be hot on the Overdrive DAC a while ago...I haven't read up on the latest version, but is it still a "player" in the market?
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There are just too many DAC choices in this price range!
What about the W4S DAC-2? It seemed to be getting a lot of attention for a while there... FOTM? For the price it seems to check all the boxes for me, but I have not heard one yet.
Meh. It's a different market now then back when the DAC-2 was released, and they haven't really done anything with it. The USB input is a Hiface OEM board, presumably unmodified since multiple reports say the sound over USB is mediocre. The Anedio D2 is likely to eat its lunch for similar money.
Should I try hooking it up via coaxial with my V-Link II next time I use it? Or are there better interface dealies to look into? My PC's motherboard has coaxial and optical outputs, but I don't really trust them (should I?). Can't say I'm interested in replacing my DAC anytime soon.
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Try out the optical. At least it will always be galvanically isolated from the PC. The jitter will be high, but after all you are using a general computing device.
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Dave, you use to be hot on the Overdrive DAC a while ago...I haven't read up on the latest version, but is it still a "player" in the market?
I still am. What you get with the Overdrive SE is basically an OR5 with dual TC built in to the DAC, which by all accounts is seriously good, perhaps the best in its class. Some people for whatever reason don't like/trust Empirical, I don't know why. IMO Steve is a pretty straight forward guy, though he does keep what particular DACs he uses in the OD a close secret. It's not R2R, but other than that I have no idea. You can always return Empirical products if you don't like them, and he offers a much easier upgrade path than most.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-steve-nugent-empirical-audio (http://www.audiostream.com/content/qa-steve-nugent-empirical-audio)
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Should I try hooking it up via coaxial with my V-Link II next time I use it? Or are there better interface dealies to look into? My PC's motherboard has coaxial and optical outputs, but I don't really trust them (should I?). Can't say I'm interested in replacing my DAC anytime soon.
Yeah give it a shot. I don't think the V-Link II has isolation via coaxial either (if memory serves) and I think it uses clock synthesis rather than fixed clocks but it might still be better. As has already been stated optical solves your electrical/ground contamination problem, but adds to your jitter problem. Ideally you would want something isolated and self powered like the JKSPDIF, which would allow you to use a USB cable with the power leg severed, and/or a common mode choke.
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DSD comes to Invicta "late Dec" says M.M.
It's dismaying that there isn't a non-convoluted way to rip DSD off SACDs.
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DSD comes to Invicta "late Dec" says M.M.
It's dismaying that there isn't a non-convoluted way to rip DSD off SACDs.
That was the point. If you remember that rootkit mess, Sony was trying to find ways to stop easy CD copying and obviously a disc that was theoretically impossible to copy would've had a lot of appeal. Now it pretty much doesn't matter, SACD is dead except as a niche format for audiophile labels.
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http://www.head-fi.org/t/633594/jkeny-battery-hiface-mk1-price-drop-x2
Id this a good deal? I know there's an MKIII version out now, but would that be worthwhile for someone who listens almost exclusively to CD quality music?
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That was the point. If you remember that rootkit mess, Sony was trying to find ways to stop easy CD copying and obviously a disc that was theoretically impossible to copy would've had a lot of appeal. Now it pretty much doesn't matter, SACD is dead except as a niche format for audiophile labels.
There seems to be a helluva more DSD dacs these days though I can't find dsdiff or related files from my favourite artist, only SACDs and CD quality stuff.
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http://www.head-fi.org/t/633594/jkeny-battery-hiface-mk1-price-drop-x2
Id this a good deal? I know there's an MKIII version out now, but would that be worthwhile for someone who listens almost exclusively to CD quality music?
The MK1 Hiface mod basically cut the power to the clocks and replaced that with a battery supply, but the rest was left mostly stock, with poor quality DC-DC regulators powering the actual output. I'd suggest getting the new one.
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http://www.head-fi.org/t/633594/jkeny-battery-hiface-mk1-price-drop-x2
Id this a good deal? I know there's an MKIII version out now, but would that be worthwhile for someone who listens almost exclusively to CD quality music?
The MK1 Hiface mod basically cut the power to the clocks and replaced that with a battery supply, but the rest was left mostly stock, with poor quality DC-DC regulators powering the actual output. I'd suggest getting the new one.
Any idea if stock Hiface 2 have improved internals in this regard?
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Its definitely better than the original stock Hiface. Marco switched to XMOS rather than his own asynchronous system which was interesting to see. I'd still expect it to be nearly the bottom of the multitude of converters out there in terms of performance. I'm sure it's not as good as the EVO for example, and that is average at best.
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OK Dave....$1500 top price tag:
W4S DAC2 vs Metrum Octave with Stello U3? I do want a USB connection....
Better option would be? Any other choices you would consider?
Thanks!
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$1500? Mytek 192 is honestly my favorite at the price point, unless you can't take the looks (though it looks much better in person than pictures let on.) The W4S was an early, cheapish (not megabuck) option using good chips and asynch tech. It has been eclipsed since then.
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The Mytek looks interesting.....I am glad it has option without the multi colored LED's!
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Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, it looks like the optical toslink input is limited to 96KHz. I've sent an e-mail off to Mytek to verify this.
JJ
$1500? Mytek 192 is honestly my favorite at the price point, unless you can't take the looks (though it looks much better in person than pictures let on.) The W4S was an early, cheapish (not megabuck) option using good chips and asynch tech. It has been eclipsed since then.
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I heard good things about the Korg MR2000 for playback both in multibit PCM and DSD, anyone has an opinion about it? Besides the DAC2hcg, I would love to have a listen to the Mytek.
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Isn't Anedio D2 sub-$1500?
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Mytek 192 is the DAC that I use after upgrading a while back. I have to say that most of/if not all of Mytek's products are aimed at the "professional" market but I know that Mytek wanted to introduce this DAC to the audiophile market. If you'd like to know more about the 192 DAC, you can read about it on my review at head-fi.
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Isn't Anedio D2 sub-$1500?
Yep, its only 1470. Though good luck getting one anytime soon. You have to email them and get on the list so that you can get one in the next batch. I know the last batch never even made it onto the website, it sold out completely to people on the list. I got one though :D
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Thanks for the link. It looks like the usb input is isolated. With USB powered components, I'm always skeptical about the quality of the power supply.
And yes, I agree that implementation is more important than the parts.
Based on Lavorgna's review, I brought in an iFi Micro USB power supply to try out with the Concero. $216 (including shipping) well spent. Immediately noticeable improvement.
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Tari - I haven't come across any impressions from you about the NAD M51. I'm still fighting the urge to move on from the Gungnir and the M51 can be had new here for $1499. I suspect the NAD was no match for the big hitters you're used to, but surely there's some basis for the praise it garners?
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Yes, there is basis for the praise it garners. But I can't tell you anything about it compared to the Gungir as I've never tried it. At $1500 I can't think of a better DAC on the market (obviously haven't tried them all). I'd go for it unless you're looking for something with a smaller form factor, integrated headamp, or the newest buzzword (DoP). The PWD MKII may be better, but at more outlay and firmware issues that bug the heck out of me. I'm still only half-heartedly selling mine, as I don't really need the money and I like the DAC.
Edit- I would add that I've never heard the D2, thought the D1 was decent but nothing to write home about. D2 could very well be stellar.
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I'd like a smaller form factor, but it'll occupy the space below the Mjolnir anyway and that already takes up some real-estate.
The Gungnir was a good upgrade from the Bifrost but I still get the sense that the HD800 is hampered. Could be the new toy sheen wearing off, but I also get the sense sound has deteriorated over time. There's now a harder edge to the presentation, a digital glare compared to the more analogue flavour it seemed to convey when I stepped up from the Bifrost. I recall purrin stating that he preferred the M51 over the Gungnir, though I can't be certain if he was referring to the preproduction Gungnir.
The Anedio D2 is an enticing alternative, particularly with its supposedly decent hp amp. I would've probably pulled the trigger on one if supply wasn't an issue.
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OK Dave....$1500 top price tag:
W4S DAC2 vs Metrum Octave with Stello U3? I do want a USB connection....
Better option would be? Any other choices you would consider?
Thanks!
The W4S is outdated, and the USB input is sub average. Pass. The Octave from what I've heard is pretty good, but it doesn't handle 192Khz, I'm not sure if that's something you need. The Anedio D2 is probably the star of the ~$1500 class, but they sell them faster than they can make them. I wouldn't recommend the Stello either, you'll get much better results from the Audiophilleo2.
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The Anedio D2 is an enticing alternative, particularly with its supposedly decent hp amp. I would've probably pulled the trigger on one if supply wasn't an issue.
There is a post in the D2 thread on HF from a guy who ordered one yesterday and it shipped the same day.
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I do believe there is some stock available now. Not too sure how many, but their 30day trial is just tempting.
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Which vendors are you guys referring to reg. the NAD M51?
It goes for 14000 SEK here in Sweden (2150 USD). Which... sucks.
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Goes for $2000 in the US. The cheaper vendor is in Australia, where MRP is lower. I doubt they ship internationally as its usually against dealer network rules.
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I'm going to short list the M51 for the new stat rig. Nice to see it's voltage flexible, so if I buy it here in the UK I can use it at home. Lots of input and output options, and a simple interface... something I wish the PWD had. I'm going to hunt around and see if I can get one to listen to before I purchase.
Still reviewing the $3.5k and under options...
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DAC-gurus... Lavry DA11... Good or anus?
There's one FS in Sweden. 850€.
How's the USB-implementation? Considering it's >3 y.o?
Is the soundstage-"modulation" PIC or whatever he calls it anything to have?
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I am NOT a Lavry fan. Same reason I'm not a Benchmark fan.
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^Fair enough...hope I can spend some time with a good DAC for my system in 2013.
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I've just pulled the trigger on the NAD M51 over the Anedio D2. The M51 was reduced to $1399AUD from an Australian reseller. Domestic warranty support is a major plus, given my trials with US companies in the past. The Anedio would've been $1700+ after shipping and import duties.
Any Aussie pirates after a Gungnir? p;)
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Bring on your impressions when you hear it. I've got a lead on a PWD but if that falls through I'm still seriously thinking about getting the NAD.
Unfortunately, I won't be getting the OZ price here in the UK! p:0
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John Darko's take on the new Metrum Hex. Love the last line in particular: "The get-out-of-jail-free card played by reviewers unable—or unwilling—to spill forth with comparative information is to seal the review envelope with the cliché that Product X "competes with units two or three times the price". I shall not insult your intelligence with the same here. A head-to-head between Product Hex and the Auralic Vega is penciled in for early 2013. The resulting commentary will be published on Digital Audio Review."
I HATE when reviewers do that, which is pretty much always. That or "the best I've ever heard in my system" which is probably the most cliche phrase in all of audio reviewerdom.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/metrum2/4.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/metrum2/4.html)
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Nah- "Heck, even my wife likes them" is the cliche-est.
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So far, it seems the Hex is standing pretty tall without the equivocation.
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So far, it seems the Hex is standing pretty tall without the equivocation.
At 2350 Euro for the USB version, exclusive of shipping and customs duty, one would hope so.
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Looking through DR database is depressing.
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No kidding. I've talked to a few engineers, they all know the situation sucks and they hate it, but they feel like they have to do it or someone else will. What's worse is the rampant clipping. That's a fairly new thing.
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Songs with shallow dynamics and songs with compressed dynamics aren't always the same thing... but the clipping? that's just stupidity and not knowing how to use A)volume or B)a decent limiter.
my rule of thumb is:
lower than 6 == total poo
6<x<9, but "busy" == :-\ decent
>9 == pretty good by today's standard's
(>14 == headbang)
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Songs with shallow dynamics and songs with compressed dynamics aren't always the same thing... but the clipping? that's just stupidity and not knowing how to use A)volume or B)a decent limiter.
my rule of thumb is:
lower than 6 == total poo
6<x<9, but "busy" == :-\ decent
>9 == pretty good by today's standard's
(>14 == headbang)
It's not really that cut and dry. The actual recording process and the mix are just as important. Metallica's And Justice For All is the classic example. It's DR12 and it sounds like utter shit. Bad recording, bad mix. There are DR6 and DR7 albums that sound much better. By today's standards (if you're talking mainstream music and not something like instrumental jazz) anything DR9 or higher is massively dynamic, that or it's a vinyl pressing. DR14+ is pretty much unheard of outside of classical and some jazz albums.
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[snip] It makes you wonder why we spend money on all this stuff.
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Just fired up my Parasound D/AC-1600 fed from an Audio GD Altera FPG/Tenor based USB->SPDIF converter.
I must say that compared to my Pico DAC this is entirely something else. Smoother highs and a lot tighter bass. Also soundstaging has much improved.
Even if limited to 16/48 this DAC still seems to be very competent.
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I still like my DM+ even though it does not get a lot of love.....
Mike is mailing back my DF so I am expecting it to arrive with the 1st ever DF Anax mod....reviews to follow :)p13
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That's a good solid DAC there... nice.
Just fired up my Parasound D/AC-1600 fed from an Audio GD Altera FPG/Tenor based USB->SPDIF converter.
I must say that compared to my Pico DAC this is entirely something else. Smoother highs and a lot tighter bass. Also soundstaging has much improved.
Even if limited to 16/48 this DAC still seems to be very competent.
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Yeah, DM+ has got a lot of bad rap over the years. I was considering it at one time but at the end I opted for a Pico DAC. At that time I was thinking that DAC chips make the whole unit sound as it sounds.
But yeah, that Parasound... I got it yesterday but we had a party at work and I was too drunk to resolder the jumpers for voltage change. Then I went to sleep and got up by myself at 5:30am to do the soldering as I was sober. Now that's dedication!
That Audio GD converter gave me some trouble but turned out my USB hub couldn't supply enough power for it. I just plugged it in another port and I was all set. Now I'm pondering if I'll get a dedicated PSU unit for it.
The Parasound was a much larger leap in quality from Pico than going from FiiO E10 to the Pico.
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Parasound makes solid gear. I love the sound of their SS amps.
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Ha, there seems to be nice increase in "DAC talk" around here! Anyways- I don't think it will be worthwhile to cook up a thread for this.
Being a multilingual inquisitive fellow that I am I often wander around Russian diy audio forums in search for new ideas. Today I stumbled upon an interesting study done by a Russian audio electronics designer Dimitri Andronikov who goes by the nickname "Lynx" around some forums. Keep in mind that despite being a very talented audio designer (imho) he also owns a company that does small DAC and amp projects. So some salt may be needed with this.
I'm not going to translate the whole thing but the conclusions are quite interesting.
Original text in Russian:
[...]В свое время у меня была
возможность и необходимость по работе измерить реальные свойства
большого количества ЦАПов AD1861(J), AD1862(J), PCM63(К), PCM1702(К),
PCM1704(К). В партиях микросхем было от 80 до 200шт каждого типа. Причем
некоторые микросхемы одного типа были разных годов выпуска. Подобное
количество в принципе претендует на то, чтобы являться репрезентативной
выборкой. В результате измерений, 20-разрядну линейность и монотонность
ХП показали только единицы приборов AD1862 и PCM63 (и то после
подстройки), 19-разрядную РСМ63, AD1862 и PCM1702, 18 разрядную - всех
типов, кроме AD1861, 17 и 16 разрядную - приборы всех типов. Измерения
производились при подаче 20-разрядного сигнала с генератора кода
цифрового синуса частотой 2кГц при частоте дискретизации 100кГц. РСМ1704
работали в 20-разрядном режиме, хотя в дальнейшем проверка их в 24-х
разрядном выявила небольшие отличия и позволила считать пару 1704-х (из
200) 19-разрядными [...]
My translation-
Back in the day I had a chance to measure real world characteristics of many DAC chips- AD1861(J), AD1862(J), PCM63(К), PCM1702(К), PCM1704(К). Each batch contained from 80 to 200 chips of each type. I will add that some chips from the same type were made in different years. In principal such ammount of samples should provide sufficient representability.
The results of my measurements showed that 20bit linearity and harmonic monotonality was achieved only by chips of AD1862 and PCM63 (only after adjusting) type. 19bits were achieved by PCM63, AD1862 and PCM1702. 18bits - all types except AD1861. 17 and 16 bits were achieved by devices of every type.
Measurements were conducted by a 20bit code signal generator that transmited a 2kHz sine wave at 100kHz sample rate. The PCM1704 were working at 20bit mode, however attempts to feed them with 24bit samples yielded results of little difference and allowed to denote a pair of samples (from 200) as 19bit capable.
I did some formatting of my own for improved legibility.
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As far as I know, the 1702 and the 1704 are functionally identical.
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Aren't the 1704 capable of receiving 24bit words? My limited knowledge tells me that this is the only difference between them.
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The Russion guy is talking about ENOB I reckon.
Feeding it 24 bit words is something different than actually ending up with the intended voltages.
You can feed a DAC a 24 bit signal but the resolution of the actual electrical output signal will never be reached in real life.
a good (24bit) DAC can reach 20 bit resolution.
Maybe the latest chips can reach a little higher resolution.
Puts 32 bit signals/files and DAC's in a totally different perspective... ;)
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You are right- I just forgot the right term for this.
Btw, does anyone know something about the architecture of 1702/04 chips? From what I can infer they aren't "true" multibit DACs. I suspect that they might be using resistor ladders for the most important bits and delta-sigma for least important ones.
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As far as i know, they are true R2R. I don't think sigma-delta stuff wasn't much out of the gates yet when the PCM56/1702/1704s were conceived. The specsheets might even have measurements which toggle the bits in such a way to show that they are true resistor ladder DACs.
I read somewhere that the many of the modern sigma-deltas from Wolfson, AKM, etc. are not really 1-bit, more but of a hybrid of the older ladder and more modern 1-bit designs, i.e. a 4-bit or 6-bit sigma-delta.
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Thanks for the recommendations and impressions... I went ahead and got the NAD M51. Just got it fired up and giving it the once over...
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Anyone cares to give an elaboration of audio-gd DACs?
I get a very strong HiFiMAN-feeling about them. A lot of recommendations, but since they have like 10000 models, it's kind of hard to set them apart. Which are good and which are anus? Or are they all pretty much the latter category?
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Bring on your impressions when you hear it. I've got a lead on a PWD but if that falls through I'm still seriously thinking about getting the NAD.
Unfortunately, I won't be getting the OZ price here in the UK! p:0
Posted my initial impressions here (http://www.head-fi.org/t/602771/nad-m51-direct-digital-dac-impressions/570#post_8986948). Only thing I'd retract after a few days is the comment on depth. The M51 does not concede anything to the Gungnir.
Thanks for the recommendations and impressions... I went ahead and got the NAD M51. Just got it fired up and giving it the once over...
I hope you got a good deal, but more importantly, that you dig the M51 as much as I do. Congrats.
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I have an Audio-GD digital interface. It isn't bad per se, but after taking it apart for some tweaking I'm not sure if I'd want a 2000$ DAC from them.
To be honest I haven't heard much praise about them from well established members. Mostly new members with little listening experience brag about their nice black boxes.
Also- they use those blue leds that shine deep into your very being. And like those Renascence statues they stare you in the eye no matter from what angle you look.
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Anedio came in coupla hours ago.
Impressive (to me, then again only had the DACport). Might be a DAC spree next weekend, NAD M51, Lindemann USB DAC and maybe the Calyx.. not so impressed with Calyx though
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So far, very impressed. I have to say that the Stello it replaced was not doing a bad job considering its age, but after getting it set up balanced I have approached the "wow" factor with this upgrade.
I'm trying to decide now if I want to run it straight off USB or try a "bridge" of some kind? Is there really anything to the devices like the Audiophilleo, Offramp, Mtech etc...? Of course NAD says it's not effected by jitter etc...
I've always used the optical out of my Mac's in the past so considering USB or something else is new to me... but I definitely want to be able to run high resolution files, that was part of the reason for the new DAC.
Digital guru's, what say yee?
Bring on your impressions when you hear it. I've got a lead on a PWD but if that falls through I'm still seriously thinking about getting the NAD.
Unfortunately, I won't be getting the OZ price here in the UK! p:0
Posted my initial impressions here (http://www.head-fi.org/t/602771/nad-m51-direct-digital-dac-impressions/570#post_8986948). Only thing I'd retract after a few days is the comment on depth. The M51 does not concede anything to the Gungnir.
Thanks for the recommendations and impressions... I went ahead and got the NAD M51. Just got it fired up and giving it the once over...
I hope you got a good deal, but more importantly, that you dig the M51 as much as I do. Congrats.
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There is the potential to improve the performance with a USB > S/Pdif converter, provided its a good one, and that means little or no bus power. The Audiophilleo 2 + Pure Power is very effective, but it still requires a small amount of Vbus to work, though you can supply that with a Y-cable and a battery supply.
The Off Ramp 5 and the CI Audio Transient with its LPS are 100% self powered, which means you can cut the Vbus line entirely, and also use the Empirical Short Block with them.
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Thanks Dave. I noticed you didn't mention the Hiface, etc... What about the Jkeny mods etc.?
I've always like the looks of the Audiophilleo gear. I'm going to do some research on it.
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Thanks Dave. I noticed you didn't mention the Hiface, etc... What about the Jkeny mods etc.?
I've always like the looks of the Audiophilleo gear. I'm going to do some research on it.
The Hifaces are bleh. From what I understand the EVO + EVO PS + EVO Clock are pretty good (much less good apart) but that's 3 boxes, $1500, and they are ridiculous to actually use with all of the switches and knobs you have to use just to change sample rates.
The JKenny V3 from what I've heard is comparable to the Audiophilleo on its own, so it wouldn't be a match for the AP+PP combo.
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Thanks Dave. I noticed you didn't mention the Hiface, etc... What about the Jkeny mods etc.?
I've always like the looks of the Audiophilleo gear. I'm going to do some research on it.
You'll want to include the Concero/iFi Micro USB power supply in your research. I use it strictly as a USB DAC, but every reviewer that has tried it as a USB-to-S/PDIF converter has been highly appreciative. The combo is around USD 800.
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not sure where to post but a friend has a battery powered dac/amp (FiiO E17) and wants to use with an iDevice with CCK. but it says it is using too much power even with the USB charging off. so I was wondering if you can just disable the 5V on the cable, if anyone has tried it. as it shouldn't use the power at all.
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Wonder if Invicta's SD card outputs i2s to the DAC chip. Anyone here know? A couple of people have made SD card transports on diyaudio and they go direct i2s. Pretty cool stuff.
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For someone who can't try out any of the DACs below... Plus'es and Minus'es?
Anedio D2
Calyx w/ external PSU
NAD M51
The Anedio D2 stands out like the winner on paper. Tons of functions (that I'll need). Compared to NAD M51 (that has tons of functions, many not needed). But that says nothing about it's sound... What do you guys think of Anedio D2 + Zana Deux to LCD-3 / HD-800?
Also... Anyone knows what this is? http://www.danishaudiodesign.com/dac10.htm
Got offered to buy one second hand. Costs about 3500€ new. Have never heard of them. And the website looks very X-Files mid-94-ish.
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Just got offered this and almost started laughing...
WLM Acoustics Gamma ... 3200€ new. 16-bit/44.1kHz US + 24-bit/192kHz Coax. That's it. A tube output stage and a transistor-stage No more info. But a nice case.. Sometimes "Hi-End" scares me. Putting old stuff in a beautiful case. Barf... Okay, I haven't heard it. But there's nothing intriguing about it. Except for an article from 6 Moons... Where they sit in a sofa. That's it.
http://www.wlm-acoustics.com/
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Valentin, me and a friend will be auditioning the NAD M51 tomorrow w/ Bryston BHA-1 and his (choice) modded T5P... Anedio D2 will be on comparison as well. Might want to hold your horses
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Valentin, me and a friend will be auditioning the NAD M51 tomorrow w/ Bryston BHA-1 and his (choice) modded T5P... Anedio D2 will be on comparison as well. Might want to hold your horses
My horses are in the stable. ;)
Looking forward to your impressions.
To buy a DAC I need to unload my old ARC preamp. Cost me 3500€ new. Hope to get somewhere close to 1500. In worst case there's a second hand HiFi-dealer that offered 1000€. But that would hurt somewhere deep inside. So there's no super-hurry.
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Considering how some former D2 owners jumped ship to the PWD2 and how close the NADM51 can get to it, I'd say the D2 has its work cut out. Then again, if you use certain phones I'm sure it will be a close contest.
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We should make a DAC tracking sheet.
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That sounds like a really good idea...
There are too many DACs from way too many companies, that get "dwarfed" every 2-3 months by another. It's really hard for a novice in the higher-end DAC game to even comprehend tiny bits.
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Btw... Did anyone see the "Danish Audio Design"-thingie I posted earlier?
I was approached by not one, but two sellers (wanting to sell a DA05 and DA10) when I posted a WANTED-ad on a swedish HiFi-board. These are 1500 to 3500 USD DACs... After some research this is what I found (amongst others)...
Their top-model MRSP 16000 USD:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-danish-audio-design-dac-10-tube-buyer-beware-2012-10-06-digital-80017 (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-danish-audio-design-dac-10-tube-buyer-beware-2012-10-06-digital-80017)
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They can't even post pictures of their DACs on their website. That can't be good. walk the plank2
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I like the Buffalo III as a nice modular solution for modern DAC-ing needs. Combine it with modern XMOS USB->SPDIF converters found on DiyA, maybe some more advanced reclocking, a discrete IV stage and you're all set.
I find my Parasound D/AC-1600 to be really good for a 16/48 DAC, now I'm looking to tweak the output stage a bit.
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Considering how some former D2 owners jumped ship to the PWD2 and how close the NADM51 can get to it, I'd say the D2 has its work cut out. Then again, if you use certain phones I'm sure it will be a close contest.
You got that right.. I'll give my impressions however useful they may be. The test was in the dealer's showroom w/ no music blaring and just me and my friend. Amp + Headphone used were the BHA-1 and balanced modded T5P (not favoured here I know, but whatever rocks his boat.
NAD M51 and Anedio D2 do most things I expect a DAC to do well. They sound pretty similar (I think), but how each DAC is voiced is different.
M51 prefers to have the details readily available, easy picking. It also definitely does the lower end extension better and renders tiny details to be more lifelike. Shawshank Prison, BT's Flaming June was definitely a highlight there.
D2 prefers to present the music as more coherent and smooth? Definitely satisfying, but you'd have to strain a little to readily pick out the details like the M51 offers to you.
Considering in Singapore, the Anedio D2 is 2085 (customs & conversion of USD:SGD = 1:1.23) and the NAD M51 from a local dealer is 2100. No contest, my personal preference would be the NAD (I'm more of a details guy). The next few possible upgrades (PWD 2 5k, any others?) are a sizeable price increase, I'd say for solid-state this is as good as it gets I think (Barring GS-X)
Not the best of reviews, my first long one. So hopefully it helps, if you want more details on something specific let me know.
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Which DAC has the best pre amp? I want to connect straight to my amp without a dedicated preamp.
PWD2
NAD m51
Mytek 192 DSD
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^ I'm sorry, but who or what are you?
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^ I'm sorry, but who or what are you?
I am me, and who or what are you ^^
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Which DAC has the best pre amp? I want to connect straight to my amp without a dedicated preamp.
PWD2
NAD m51
Mytek 192 DSD
Do you mean which DAC has a volume control or control over the line-level output from 2-6V?
Each DAC has an analog stage to get a signal out and so that is in a "way" a pre-amp.
Some peeps want a pre-amp from the DAC to give a character to a very linear amp that has lots of control (tube pre-amp into BHSE) but other than that most go DAC to amp.
Some might want to control output from the DAC so they can run an amp at "full power" to get closer to Class A?
(My Benchmark has jumper settings for controlling a "calibrated" line-out and also a "variable" output setting so you can use the pot for controlling the line level out...the upper DAC1 or DAC2 offerings give a remote control and are called "PRE".)
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I am me, and who or what are you ^^
Last chance:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,302.0.html)
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Done
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Yeah - I know all three has volume control. Which one has the best pre amp section is my question.
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From what I understand (don't we need DaveBSC here?) you can't really separate the analog section from the entire DAC implementation unless you can get a pure digital signal out of the DAC to a pre-amp.
The chip + analog section is what you hear and judge with all DACs (together as the sound of the DAC) with the added amplification sections if the DAC has Headphone Outputs.
Somebody else please correct me if I am guiding P-man wrong here... :)p8
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Some DACs use digital volume control, some a digital/analog hybrid and some use regular analog controls. The Burson Conductor for example uses a SA. Digital controls are far from ideal, the lower the volume, the more resolution they throw away. The advantage is that its cheap and easy to implement, and of course remote volume control is no big deal.
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New $1600 DAC from B.M.C.
"The PureDAC delivers a DAC of the highest quality. It combines its DAC with a balanced, reference-level headphone amplifier, a balanced preamplifier, and B.M.C.’s exclusive Digital Intelligent Gain Management (DIGM), a volume and amplification control system that calibrates gain without dividing or downgrading the input signal …. The PureDAC also boasts a high-resolution asynchronous USB interface, digital AES/EBU, Toslink and coaxial inputs, balanced analog outputs, RCA output jacks, and a special B.M.C. link for connecting directly to a B.M.C. amplifier."
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/CES12/PureDACFront-Top_1.jpg)
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/CES12/PureDACrear_1.jpg)
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I'd like to hear more about that B.M.C.-link
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New $1600 DAC from B.M.C.
"The PureDAC delivers a DAC of the highest quality. It combines its DAC with a balanced, reference-level headphone amplifier, a balanced preamplifier, and B.M.C.’s exclusive Digital Intelligent Gain Management (DIGM), a volume and amplification control system that calibrates gain without dividing or downgrading the input signal …. The PureDAC also boasts a high-resolution asynchronous USB interface, digital AES/EBU, Toslink and coaxial inputs, balanced analog outputs, RCA output jacks, and a special B.M.C. link for connecting directly to a B.M.C. amplifier."
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/CES12/PureDACFront-Top_1.jpg)
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/CES12/PureDACrear_1.jpg)
I think that's the first time I've seen a USB 3.0 connector on a piece of audio gear.
I'm also curious about that single three-pin XLR on the front. Every balanced output I've ever seen has either been dual three-pin or single four-pin.
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Not the most attractive aesthetics, but interesting specs.
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Is there a reason other cost and simplicity manufacturers have all but shunned BNC connectors for coax?
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Is there a reason other cost and simplicity manufacturers have all but shunned BNC connectors for coax?
+100500
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Is there a reason other cost and simplicity manufacturers have all but shunned BNC connectors for coax?
I think at the lower price level, they expect people to be using sources with RCA outputs. Here's the backside of BMC's high-end DAC1 Pre for comparison. It has a BNC input for S/Pdif, plus individual links for I2S.
(http://www.webareal.sk/fotky13106/fotos/_vyrd11_54DAC1Pre_opened.jpg)
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Here's the video I watched on digital vs. analog volume implementation:
RMAF 11: Digital Jitter and Volume Controls, Martin Mallison, CTO ... (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ess%20digital%20volume%20controls%20video&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJYjHKv2_OqQ&ei=XhXqUIa_H6aniQLRpYHgBQ&usg=AFQjCNFkQvV1lb4VXJ-CmDNtV139f75zyw&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.cGE)
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Here's the video I watched on digital vs. analog volume implementation:
RMAF 11: Digital Jitter and Volume Controls, Martin Mallison, CTO ... (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ess%20digital%20volume%20controls%20video&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDAQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJYjHKv2_OqQ&ei=XhXqUIa_H6aniQLRpYHgBQ&usg=AFQjCNFkQvV1lb4VXJ-CmDNtV139f75zyw&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.cGE)
I was fascinated/surprised/skeptified (?!) by his assertion that under 1ms of jitter has found to be audible - this is orders of magnitude lower than any of the figures I've found from perusing AES papers. Youtube videos should come with bibliographies.
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Any info on this one?
It won best DAC in a swedish crap test:
http://www.ljudmakarn.se/downloads/DAC200_17032_Hifi_3_12_s26_35_exannons.pdf (http://www.ljudmakarn.se/downloads/DAC200_17032_Hifi_3_12_s26_35_exannons.pdf)
This is the info from the website...
Atoll DAC 200
For those customers who want the best but not necessarily the most expensive the DAC 200 is the way to go. Exemplary form, function and value for money.
(http://www.ljudmakarn.se/artimg/7/1/1/2117_m.jpg)
(http://www.ljudmakarn.se/artimg/6/1/1/2116_m.jpg)
- Burr Brown PCM1792 DACs with 24bit/192k upsampling -
- 129dB dynamic range;
- THD+n<0,0004%
- 2 XLR + 2 RCA outputs. 2 Coax + 1 AES + 3 optical inputs.
- 1 USB 24bit / 192k port
- Symmetrical power transformers for output stages
- Output stages with discrete components and no feedback
- High technology MKP Capacitors
- Serial remote with volume control and sources selection
- Front panel with volume control
- Digital display of volume level & sources
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Interesting choice as well. 15000 Krona is about 2300 USD.
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I got offered a used mint one for 10000 SEK, which is about 1540 USD. Making it even more interesting...
That's why I'm asking. The "comparative" test. Is pure crap. It's not compared to similar DACs, just compared to a whole lot of different types of DACs.
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I forgot to say, it has a wireless AirPlay-connected-feature with a supplied sender if I understood it correctly.
Not a deal-breaker, but a cool future.
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But alas- still no BNC! Is it that more expensive?
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Tari / MF, Project86 on head-fi posted an update yesterday on the Invicta thread. Latest firmware update provides DSD via USB & SD. And the next update will make use of the dual TRS to provide balanced headphone drive.
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Antelope Zodiac.
Worth it's price compared to the new stuff now available?
E.g. NAD51?
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Cool. I'll check it out. That double TRS thing sounds super stupid, but I guess its their only way to shoehorn in more power on an existing design.
The Zodiac at its current price is not worth it compared to the Nad's price. That's all at American prices, don't know what each unit will cost you in Europe.
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Antelope Zodiac.
Worth it's price compared to the new stuff now available?
E.g. NAD51?
If you're looking at the base model Zodiac, you should also look at the Lynx Hilo.
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I'm looking at the used Zodiac on head-fi. 1100 incl. a Teddy Pardo PSU. Since I already have a US-voltage Zana on the way. Another US-voltage product won't mean anything...
On the other hand, I'm not in such hurry that I need to buy a DAC. It's just the same problem I've discussed earlier.
It's damn hard for me to do a comparative test here with all the polar bears and such.
/V
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You could ask sphinx about that, he had the exact combo. I had it with a Voltikus.
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Any info on this one?
It won best DAC in a swedish crap test:
http://www.ljudmakarn.se/downloads/DAC200_17032_Hifi_3_12_s26_35_exannons.pdf (http://www.ljudmakarn.se/downloads/DAC200_17032_Hifi_3_12_s26_35_exannons.pdf)
This is the info from the website...
What concerns me is the PCM1792 DAC. That just generally doesn't produce great results. Aside from that, what I know about Atoll (admittedly not much) is that their stuff is ok, nothing exceptional.
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You could ask sphinx about that, he had the exact combo. I had it with a Voltikus.
I sent him a PM and we'll see...
How did you feel about Zodiac + Voltikus vs M51?
Any info on this one?
It won best DAC in a swedish crap test:
http://www.ljudmakarn.se/downloads/DAC200_17032_Hifi_3_12_s26_35_exannons.pdf (http://www.ljudmakarn.se/downloads/DAC200_17032_Hifi_3_12_s26_35_exannons.pdf)
This is the info from the website...
What concerns me is the PCM1792 DAC. That just generally doesn't produce great results. Aside from that, what I know about Atoll (admittedly not much) is that their stuff is ok, nothing exceptional.
Not that inclined to purchasing it. Has a few cool features, but it just feels a bit fishy.
To me it seems like an "old" DAC w/ new futures.
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I think it was a fine DAC 1-2 years ago. The price was $1,295 from several retailers. This was when the W4S DAC2 was everyone and their mother's favorite DAC and the PWD was off having dissociative identity disorder. What you're looking at on head-fi is the one I used to own. It'll beat a lot of stuff on the market, some of the over priced ones especially, but since I haven't tried today's favored units, like the M51 or Mytek, I can't *really* say how it'll compare.
The positive things I noticed about it are: devices like the Audiophilleo or Gordon Rankin's Wavelink made no difference, it destroyed the RWA DAC in a test in a rather resolving system, the noise floor is *really* quite low, the preamp is analog.
Tari, whatever happened to your office showdown between the Mytek and M51? Which one did you end up settling in with?
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I ended up keeping the Mytek - the NAD was just to big for the smallish office rig I had in mind. I do think the NAD was better overall purely from a sonic standpoint (low level detail, transparency, tone/not too glare-y) but the Mytek is just chock full of features and is small, nondescript, easily transportable and sonics are up there in its price bracket.
Basically agreed on the Zodiac. The W4S is just one of those things that was cheapish and decent, with async and 24/192, so people jumped and it spiralled from there. The PWD love is a lot more warranted.
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I think it was a fine DAC 1-2 years ago. The price was $1,295 from several retailers. This was when the W4S DAC2 was everyone and their mother's favorite DAC and the PWD was off having dissociative identity disorder. What you're looking at on head-fi is the one I used to own. It'll beat a lot of stuff on the market, some of the over priced ones especially, but since I haven't tried today's favored units, like the M51 or Mytek, I can't *really* say how it'll compare.
The positive things I noticed about it are: devices like the Audiophilleo or Gordon Rankin's Wavelink made no difference, it destroyed the RWA DAC in a test in a rather resolving system, the noise floor is *really* quite low, the preamp is analog.
Tari, whatever happened to your office showdown between the Mytek and M51? Which one did you end up settling in with?
Thanks guys for the clarification...
Then I'll keep searching for a non-2300 USD M51!
/V
I ended up keeping the Mytek - the NAD was just to big for the smallish office rig I had in mind. I do think the NAD was better overall purely from a sonic standpoint (low level detail, transparency, tone/not too glare-y) but the Mytek is just chock full of features and is small, nondescript, easily transportable and sonics are up there in its price bracket.
Basically agreed on the Zodiac. The W4S is just one of those things that was cheapish and decent, with async and 24/192, so people jumped and it spiralled from there. The PWD love is a lot more warranted.
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Possible to have an Aussie member forward one? Would save a couple hundred, right?
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I was hoping you folks might be able to help me figure something out. How does the UHF noise filtering work with DSD DACs, particularly those where that ability is added on after launch like the Invicta? All SACD players have filters on their analog outputs to control the extreme levels of UHF noise that's inherent in 1-bit DSD recordings, it's a required part of the SACD spec. Do the DACs have those same filters? Did they build that filter in to the Invicta knowing they were going to add DSD support later on? Even if you can't necessarily hear it, tweeters would be REALLY unhappy with this sort of noise.
(http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Pictures/KB/DSD2.jpg)
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Val, where are you located? I'd suggest contacting Audiotrends to see if they'll ship the M51 outside of Australia. They are excellent to deal with.
http://www.audiotrends.com.au/NAD_M51.html?action=viewProduct&itemId=1587
If they won't accommodate that, I'd be willing to forward the component on to you. Just be advised that it's quite a large package and postage cost, plus import duties incurred on your end may significantly erode the saving. Warranty is another consideration to weigh up.
Also, Australia is 230V. I don't think the M51 has a switch.
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Dave, watch this RMAF video on DSD --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj7d7Jnx0xc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj7d7Jnx0xc)
the understanding I have is that keeping all that ultrasonic data (including the noise) is the goal of DSD. To get more "analog like" sound, or so they say...
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Val, where are you located? I'd suggest contacting Audiotrends to see if they'll ship the M51 outside of Australia. They are excellent to deal with.
http://www.audiotrends.com.au/NAD_M51.html?action=viewProduct&itemId=1587 (http://www.audiotrends.com.au/NAD_M51.html?action=viewProduct&itemId=1587)
If they won't accommodate that, I'd be willing to forward the component on to you. Just be advised that it's quite a large package and postage cost, plus import duties incurred on your end may significantly erode the saving. Warranty is another consideration to weigh up.
Also, Australia is 230V. I don't think the M51 has a switch.
Hi mate!
I'm from Sweden, so 230V is just a big plus!
I'll look into it tomorrow afternoon and send you a PM.
Thx,
V
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Cristello, good video. Interesting line I just heard in there, "analog is a digital signal, it just has infinite sample rate, the closer you get to that number: infinite, the closer to analog it's [digital] going to sound."
Dave, I think they very briefly touch on UHF noise around 48:00. They mentioned it a couple of times but just indirectly.
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Also, Australia is 230V. I don't think the M51 has a switch.
Not that Val is worried about it, but for the record the M51 is universal voltage, it even comes with several power cords, which I thought was a nice touch. This was one of the reasons I went with it, because I am able to use it now in Europe and it's ready to go when I return to the US.
Dealers here is Europe can almost always sell it cheaper than advertised... you definitely need to check in with them to see what their bottom line price is. I got several hundred pounds off advertised.
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Thanks ship. Mine only came with an Australian power cord, but that's not a concern as it's detachable and the M51 itself is universal voltage as you've stated.
Btw, have you gotten around to testing usb from your MacBook? On my system (MBP>M51>MJ>HD800) usb trades some high end clarity from toslink for a slightly warmer, more rounded presentation. Its less digital glare and more analogue, natural presentation.
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So far I've only used optical from an iMac. Now that I'm running balanced I am very impressed with the results. I need to get a longer USB cable so I can make some comparisons between the two.
Lots of impressions over here --> http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/40613-nad-m51-listening-impressions/ (http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/40613-nad-m51-listening-impressions/) Many seem to be recommending the Audiophilleo or Offramp options. I can see myself giving the Audiophilleo 2 a try down the road.
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What ya think of that M51, ship?
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I am really digging it. Build quality is good, great simple interface, great selection of inputs, and I am enjoying a whole new level of detail that I was missing... PLANKTON!
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Keep us posted on what you find with the AP2. There seems to be concerted effort on SNA to promote these types of devices. Very skeptical of the praise but I wouldn't mind hearing how one may affect my system.
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Keep us posted on what you find with the AP2. There seems to be concerted effort on SNA to promote these types of devices. Very skeptical of the praise but I wouldn't mind hearing how one may affect my system.
Will do, but it's down the road. I want to see what I think of USB vs. optical first.
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Dave, I think they very briefly touch on UHF noise around 48:00. They mentioned it a couple of times but just indirectly.
Thanks. I'm just curious because in HDTracks' material on how they convert DSD to LPCM (largely a waste of time IMO unless the CD master is total shit in comparison) they mention having to filter out the HF noise (as all SACD players do) to protect tweeters and such. I've been wanting to try out Foobar's ability to read SACD raw data directly, but I wasn't sure how the DACs handle the noise problem.
https://www.hdtracks.com/files/DSD_to_LPCM.pdf (https://www.hdtracks.com/files/DSD_to_LPCM.pdf)
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So it turns out Invicta uses "a lowpass at about 47kHz to filter out the ultrasonic energy in the DSD stream to protect equipment down stream."
I assume most DSD capable DACs use similar protection.
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if all the DSD DACs on the market filter out the UHF range, then I don't see much need for DSD over PCM. If the Frequency range isn't a selling point, then why do I really need DSD???
of course, the folks trying to up-sell DSD would like me to believe "eliminating extra steps in the encoding process sounds much more natural", but I'm still skeptical... (even after watching that RMAF presentation)
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It's 47khz, well beyond hearing levels any way.
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... right. so why should I care about DSD, again?
(I do remember something about single-DSD saving space compared to 192kHz PCM, while covering one-and-a-half times a Frequency range. I wonder whether or not that efficiency holds true at 44.1 kHz size [half/quarter-DSD]...)
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For what it's worth, a DSD ISO is typically less than 2GB in size. For example, Black Sabbath Paranoid is 1.8GB, about x3 size of a CD.
I like DSD because SACD disks tend to be re-mastered better. I'm using the J-River client to convert DSD ISO rips to 192kHz -> PWD2.
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if all the DSD DACs on the market filter out the UHF range, then I don't see much need for DSD over PCM. If the Frequency range isn't a selling point, then why do I really need DSD???
of course, the folks trying to up-sell DSD would like me to believe "eliminating extra steps in the encoding process sounds much more natural", but I'm still skeptical... (even after watching that RMAF presentation)
It's not really about frequency range. It's about pulse density modulation (as used by DSD) vs. pulse code modulation (PCM). DSD advocates argue that PDM is more natural and more analog sounding than PCM. I don't know how much of an advantage there really is over 24/176 or 192, personally I think the recording and the mixing and mastering are a lot more important than format.
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Digital mixing and mastering was not possible on a native DSD stream until fairly recently.
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Digital mixing and mastering was not possible on a native DSD stream until fairly recently.
:)p6
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... right. so why should I care about DSD, again?
(I do remember something about single-DSD saving space compared to 192kHz PCM, while covering one-and-a-half times a Frequency range. I wonder whether or not that efficiency holds true at 44.1 kHz size [half/quarter-DSD]...)
FWIW, the DSD download of the San Francisco Symphony recording of Mahler Symphony No. 1 is 4.78 GB; the 88.2/24 AIFF download is 1.79 GB. When you can buy a 2TB bus-powered portable drive for $150 and stick it in your pocket, I'm not sure file size is the right thing to be worrying about.
YMMV, obviously, but ... when I got the Lynx Hilo, which is DSD capable since the most recent firmware update, two of the first four DSD downloads I bought were albums that I already had as 88.2/24 AIFF files (the Mahler mentioned above, and the Pieter Wispelway recording of the Shostakovich Second Cello Concerto and the Britten Third Suite for Cellos Solo). To my ears, the DSD files are clearly better, and it's not subtle. My view of whether recorded music "sounds right" is informed by many years of performance and live-concert-going experience, and the DSD files come closer to sounding right.
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BTW. They fuck with you. The DSD layers are often different masters.
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BTW. They fuck with you. The DSD layers are often different masters.
x2 !
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FWIW, the DSD download of the San Francisco Symphony recording of Mahler Symphony No. 1 is 4.78 GB; the 88.2/24 AIFF download is 1.79 GB. When you can buy a 2TB bus-powered portable drive for $150 and stick it in your pocket, I'm not sure file size is the right thing to be worrying about.
YMMV, obviously, but ... when I got the Lynx Hilo, which is DSD capable since the most recent firmware update, two of the first four DSD downloads I bought were albums that I already had as 88.2/24 AIFF files (the Mahler mentioned above, and the Pieter Wispelway recording of the Shostakovich Second Cello Concerto and the Britten Third Suite for Cellos Solo). To my ears, the DSD files are clearly better, and it's not subtle. My view of whether recorded music "sounds right" is informed by many years of performance and live-concert-going experience, and the DSD files come closer to sounding right.
Use this on the DSD image: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/, diskwrite to e.g. 48k/24bit. Then attempt to ABX this vs the original.
Good luck, you're going to need it. (to hit the 5% or 1% false positive chance)
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...personally I think the recording and the mixing and mastering are a lot more important than format.
That's the crux of the bitter truth. Although, like Purrin said, DSD is *often* sourced from better masters. My impression is they're *often* sourced right from the analog master. Emphasis on often to account for the exceptions.
On the playback end the Blue Coast DSD files I downloaded don't sound much better than my better redbook recordings through the humble Paradox. On my loudspeakers, the margin grows.
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FWIW, the DSD download of the San Francisco Symphony recording of Mahler Symphony No. 1 is 4.78 GB; the 88.2/24 AIFF download is 1.79 GB. When you can buy a 2TB bus-powered portable drive for $150 and stick it in your pocket, I'm not sure file size is the right thing to be worrying about.
YMMV, obviously, but ... when I got the Lynx Hilo, which is DSD capable since the most recent firmware update, two of the first four DSD downloads I bought were albums that I already had as 88.2/24 AIFF files (the Mahler mentioned above, and the Pieter Wispelway recording of the Shostakovich Second Cello Concerto and the Britten Third Suite for Cellos Solo). To my ears, the DSD files are clearly better, and it's not subtle. My view of whether recorded music "sounds right" is informed by many years of performance and live-concert-going experience, and the DSD files come closer to sounding right.
Use this on the DSD image: http://sourceforge.net/projects/sacddecoder/, diskwrite to e.g. 48k/24bit. Then attempt to ABX this vs the original.
Good luck, you're going to need it. (to hit the 5% or 1% false positive chance)
If you think that's important, feel free to do it and report your findings. I'd rather just enjoy listening to great performances of great music.
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the BM DAC2 uses four ESS Sabre32 chips in a parallel bit-redundant configuration, correct?
I'm curious if the DAC2 is the first big-name DAC with those new Sabre32 chips on the market.
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Sorry if I've missed this, but any thoughts on the Chord QBD76 DAC?
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products-info.asp?id=74
I've also been eyeing the Berkley Alpha Series 2. I could get one in almost new condition at half the retail price.
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Those Chords make me nervous.... I see a lot of them being sold second hand, which for a product sold in large numbers would seem pretty normal, but for a product probably not sold in major volume makes me think it's not a keeper with many listeners. PURE speculation on my part.
I like the Berkley stuff. After doing some listening I was ready to try and buy one new, but the folks there were basically unresponsive. I gave up trying to get them to take my money. At half retail it would seem attractive.
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If you have to go cheap: E-mu 0204 or 0404? I'm looking for a replacement of the Pico.
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Sorry if I've missed this, but any thoughts on the Chord QBD76 DAC?
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products-info.asp?id=74
I've also been eyeing the Berkley Alpha Series 2. I could get one in almost new condition at half the retail price.
Unless you want the Bluetooth streaming and the other stuff that the Chord does, for $6K (last I checked) I would be inclined to look elsewhere. A half priced Alpha DAC is a pretty good deal. It's not really SOTA anymore, but for under $3K I'm not sure you can beat it.
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Butbutbut ... it doesn't run on LiFePo4 batteries ... how can it be any good?
http://www.head-fi.org/t/648847/the-lifepo4-battery-a-dac-revolution
:)p13
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To be fair, everything I've heard about John's DAC has been extremely positive. Better than the Alpha, no, but $500 DACs should be sweating. I think a good linear supply from someone like Paul Hynes can match what batteries can do without the problem of voltage drops based on charge level, but compared to the typical switch mode brick garbage that most entry level DACs use as power supplies, LiFe batteries will destroy those.
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Just talked to the US Distributor about getting an Auralic Vega. He said last week he had 50 and now he has zero. Looks like CES did its job.
$3450 shipped and paypaled from Canada is a pretty good price for a DAC with femto jitter and 2X DSD.
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I'm interested in MSB's products. But the rate at which they add upgrades is sort of alarming, and devaluing to old gear. They just added the "plus" upgrade to all DACIV's and the chassis look slightly different from the non-plus. It's also sort of vague what the differences are between a DACIII and DACIV in the same family (ie Platinum to Platinum). Otherwise I've heard nothing but good things from them from a couple of people I trust.
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MSB just charges for the nose through every little upgrade. They design and produce a lot of their own components from what I understand, but that still doesn't gel with some of the ridiculous add-on prices they charge. I guess that's how they stay in business, but that doesn't mean we have to like it.
I'm most interested in their Analog DAC, both because of its attractive price and it not looking meh (which the rest of their DACs really do whether people want to admit it or not.) It punches way above its class in their price breakdown, especially as the "cheap" version of their power supply looks like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/kVxoV9v.jpg)
(http://www.changstar.com/file:///Users/patuach_amada/Downloads/msb.jpg)
(Credit: elberoth on AA)
7K with one 24/384 USB in is pretty decent in relation to some of their other products. Still, I'd much rather wait until they hit the used market, as used MSB tends to be about half-off even when current gen. The Analog DAC doesn't really support upgradability, you can add ins down the line but thats about it.
I recently spoke to a guy from Chicago who has one of these, and he'd like to hear some of my gear, so maybe we'll find some time to do a meet.
The Computer DAC market is really moving too fast right now though - parttimeaudiophile recently did an interview with the folks at Pass and they basically said that (since the D1) they don't see ever doing source stuff as it just moves too quickly, they like their products to stay cutting edge for years, and thats what they can do staying pre/power.
On the other hand you have people like PS Audio doing upgrades and using the same DAC for years, Resolution (Kalt has said he plans to keep the Cantata updated with emerging tech for 10 years, has released 24/192 board upgrades and now upnp upgrade announced at CES) and Resonessence (various upgrades to SD, added DSD and balanced drive since release to keep current) that manage to stay "with it" as advancements come.
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Cool, looking forward to hearing your thoughts if you hear The Analog. I believe you've heard the Invicta? What I'm using now is similar topology wise. I actually find the DACIV's easy on the eyes :)p17
I'm not too concerned about upgrades. 95++ % of my collection is just redbook and things like DSD, double DSD and all that don't interest me much. The music I like will rarely be available in those formats. So picking a DAC and sticking with it will probably be what I do. MSB have written me in an email that The Analog will be better than the stock DACIV Platinum, but didn't really go into more detail. Understandable they wouldn't want it competing with their significantly higher priced stuff. However they also highly recommended the volume control since it adds a screen and that's the only way you'll be alerted if you're getting bit perfect output via USB.
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If I buy one I'll get it with volume control even though I don't think it will replace the preamp in my system.
The most gorgeous DAC I've ever owned was definitely the Cantata, that thing was tremendous. May re-buy one in the future as I loved the sound and no new 1704 DACs will be coming out as the chip's been discontinued.
I've owned the Invicta twice - returned the first one in the first 30 days and then promptly found a used one for sale. The only reason for my initial return was the limited nature of files I could play on the SD - they've since rectified that. Invicta is a great DAC, I like the self-contained nature (with the SD), transportability, HDMI, decent head-outs, and company philosophy. Every time people bring up the possibility that a DAC designed by the chip maker (ESS) possibly offering the best implementation it gets shot down. Truth is though (and this is not well known) Dustin Forman, (now chief technologist at ESS) who was lead on the 9018, did most of the design on the Invicta. He's considered an expert in both the digital and analog realms and has at least 9 significant patents in his name. He didn't do all the work on it though, I think they used other engineers for most of the programming and firmware grunt work. Still, to this day its the best implementation of the 9018 I've heard. I think it being designed by the chief guy behind the chip had a whole lot to do with that.
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As for DSD, DXD, etc - its like having a super car that can do crazy MPH. I'd know I'm never going to use it to go that fast, but just seeing those numbers on the speedometer and knowing I could makes me all tingly.
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It would be nice if MSB would do direct sales on The Analog DAC (with home trial), sort of like how some companies will do it just for a single product in their line. It would save the customer even more money, but understandable if they can't do it due to pissing off dealers/distributors.
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MSB doesn't seem to want to save their customers money.
The one thing that scares me about them is their youtube videos, take this one for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0iwL6kiZQM&list=UUG8RE8sxUeDP5hCcv6fSD-A&index=16 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0iwL6kiZQM&list=UUG8RE8sxUeDP5hCcv6fSD-A&index=16)
As an only half serious rhetorical question, if a company doesn't know how to produce a promotional youtube video, how can I trust them to be on the cutting edge of digital tech? (Of course I'd much rather have a company with solid engineering and a horrible sense of self promotion than one with shoddy production but slick advertisement production).
Seriously, the Q&A is hilarious, the cutting is atrocious (3:57-58 eg), and Larry's ears wiggle when he talks and it distracts me (1:13 and 1:20 as examples) The social awkwardness portends well for the competency of design (as the stereotype goes.)
I wish this DAC was balanced. Just RCA outs but can be doohickeyed to XLR (as you already know)
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Speaking of DACs. Just a quick word on the PWD mk1 to mk2 upgrade. Observations using SPDIF (coax and optical) and USB via PC.
With the mk1, SPDIF was superior to USB with a blacker background, better separation and more apparent low level detail. USB was distinctly fuzzier and less clear. The mk2 upgrade did improve SPDIF slightly more but USB was vastly improved to excel beyond my PC's SPDIF implementation. I suspect drivers may have quite a bit to do with this as well.
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@Tari that is an interesting point regarding the pace of change in DAC's, this is in the back of my mind planning my next upgrade. It seems the latest trend is so called femto DAC's showing up in a lot of equipment, and I think this will be a big trend this year. I don't really want to buy a DAC to find they revise the design to use a better clock in a few months.
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Upgradability of Schiit products is looking better and better.
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MSB just charges for the nose through every little upgrade. They design and produce a lot of their own components from what I understand, but that still doesn't gel with some of the ridiculous add-on prices they charge. I guess that's how they stay in business, but that doesn't mean we have to like it.
I'm most interested in their Analog DAC, both because of its attractive price and it not looking meh (which the rest of their DACs really do whether people want to admit it or not.) It punches way above its class in their price breakdown, especially as the "cheap" version of their power supply looks like this:
The Computer DAC market is really moving too fast right now though - parttimeaudiophile recently did an interview with the folks at Pass and they basically said that (since the D1) they don't see ever doing source stuff as it just moves too quickly, they like their products to stay cutting edge for years, and thats what they can do staying pre/power.
On the other hand you have people like PS Audio doing upgrades and using the same DAC for years, Resolution (Kalt has said he plans to keep the Cantata updated with emerging tech for 10 years, has released 24/192 board upgrades and now upnp upgrade announced at CES) and Resonessence (various upgrades to SD, added DSD and balanced drive since release to keep current) that manage to stay "with it" as advancements come.
MSB DACs are made in house and they are R2R, that's the big draw there. They are NOT fans of delta-sigma conversion. There's fierce competition from dCS and Light Harmonic though, and the Stereophile measurements of the Platinum power base thing that goes with their Platinum DAC weren't impressive - IIRC it had 60Hz noise problems from the AC cycle. I would expect a WAY better power supply for that kind of cash. The new Analog DAC is priced right at the Meitner, Bricasti, and Overdrive, I'm curious how that comparison would shake out.
The computer DAC market is definitely moving quickly - especially in the $2-3K range. For awhile it was the QB-9 and Eximus and not much else, now Auralic, Benchmark, Bryston, Metrum, Primare, and T+A have all jumped into that space, and CIAudio and Schiit are also working on DACs in that range.
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Speaking of DACs. Just a quick word on the PWD mk1 to mk2 upgrade. Observations using SPDIF (coax and optical) and USB via PC.
With the mk1, SPDIF was superior to USB with a blacker background, better separation and more apparent low level detail. USB was distinctly fuzzier and less clear. The mk2 upgrade did improve SPDIF slightly more but USB was vastly improved to excel beyond my PC's SPDIF implementation. I suspect drivers may have quite a bit to do with this as well.
It's not the drivers. The USB tech is completely different. The original PWD used an adaptive mode chip.. I wanna say Tenor, which was what was available at the time they were developing it. The PWD MK2 uses a new asynchronous mode USB input, I'm not sure what but I would guess XMOS. It can also run through the reclocker in NativeX mode, the original could only do that with the network bridge.
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No, I get that, my comment was about the SPDIF being held back via PC. I didn't word that well enough. Obviously I'm quite pleased w/ the USB implementation via XMOS/NativeX. The digital lens is supposed to benefit all the inputs, which it seems to.
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So folks, I have this el cheapo Audiotrak Prodigy Cube. It seems it's held back by OPA2134 only - which rolls off when driving capacitive loads and the JRC4580 buffers don't isolate this well enough. At least it remains stable in that case, unlike uncompensated AD8620. (e.g. FiiO E17!)
Everything except SPDIF out (cheap HanRun) is solid: Tenor USB, WM8776 DAC, stacked JRC4580s, good crystal clock. Noise is low.
However, the opamp is a rollable DIP version of OPA2134PA. Which opamp would you recommend as the drop in replacement?
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Roll a few... they're cheap.
I think the OPA2107 and the LT1364 would be compatible for you... I had luck with them in my LD I+ days.
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MSB doesn't seem to want to save their customers money.
The one thing that scares me about them is their youtube videos, take this one for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0iwL6kiZQM&list=UUG8RE8sxUeDP5hCcv6fSD-A&index=16 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0iwL6kiZQM&list=UUG8RE8sxUeDP5hCcv6fSD-A&index=16)
As an only half serious rhetorical question, if a company doesn't know how to produce a promotional youtube video, how can I trust them to be on the cutting edge of digital tech? (Of course I'd much rather have a company with solid engineering and a horrible sense of self promotion than one with shoddy production but slick advertisement production).
Seriously, the Q&A is hilarious, the cutting is atrocious (3:57-58 eg), and Larry's ears wiggle when he talks and it distracts me (1:13 and 1:20 as examples) The social awkwardness portends well for the competency of design (as the stereotype goes.)
I wish this DAC was balanced. Just RCA outs but can be doohickeyed to XLR (as you already know)
LOL that video actually gives me more confidence in the product :)p13 Their engineer is definitely your stereotypical engineer image.
I'm also annoyed that it's single ended only. The VSE preamp I plan to upgrade to is differential balanced, and I'm not exactly sure how it will handle single ended to balanced conversion. I don't particularly want to gamble with interference running 25 feet S/E cables from the preamp to power amps or speakers.
I might wait to see how much the DACIV Sigs or maybe Diamonds are when the DACV comes out.
MSB just charges for the nose through every little upgrade. They design and produce a lot of their own components from what I understand, but that still doesn't gel with some of the ridiculous add-on prices they charge. I guess that's how they stay in business, but that doesn't mean we have to like it.
I'm most interested in their Analog DAC, both because of its attractive price and it not looking meh (which the rest of their DACs really do whether people want to admit it or not.) It punches way above its class in their price breakdown, especially as the "cheap" version of their power supply looks like this:
The Computer DAC market is really moving too fast right now though - parttimeaudiophile recently did an interview with the folks at Pass and they basically said that (since the D1) they don't see ever doing source stuff as it just moves too quickly, they like their products to stay cutting edge for years, and thats what they can do staying pre/power.
On the other hand you have people like PS Audio doing upgrades and using the same DAC for years, Resolution (Kalt has said he plans to keep the Cantata updated with emerging tech for 10 years, has released 24/192 board upgrades and now upnp upgrade announced at CES) and Resonessence (various upgrades to SD, added DSD and balanced drive since release to keep current) that manage to stay "with it" as advancements come.
MSB DACs are made in house and they are R2R, that's the big draw there.
Yep. There isn't anything that sounds like really good R2R besides the properly implemented 9018. It's like hearing Tape Project open reel on a Studer or vinyl on a rebuilt Lenco with totl Zyx.
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Very nice retort to the Stereophile nonsense by Robby. Typical Arcam, cheap ass, overrated, MASSIVELY OVERPRICED shit.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/arcam-fmj-d33-da-processor-measurements (http://www.stereophile.com/content/arcam-fmj-d33-da-processor-measurements)
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And LOL to JA's reply.
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Naim has a new desktop sized USB DAC/HPA and matching speaker amp. It seems like they really took the USB part seriously as opposed to just tossing in an off the shelf module. I'm definitely interested..
http://www.whathifi.com/news/ces-2013-naim-looks-to-desktop-audio-with-dac-v1-preampdac-and-nap-100-power-amplifier (http://www.whathifi.com/news/ces-2013-naim-looks-to-desktop-audio-with-dac-v1-preampdac-and-nap-100-power-amplifier)
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I don't know why, but the goofy X-Box green and black boxes Naim is using has grown on me. I like the look and feel of them in person.
On the digital frontier for myself, in spite of still not being "Spock" sure of the value added to my chain I added a Audiophilleo 1 and Pure Power today. I only did some listening from the speakers so I'm not ready to even talk about what I'm hearing. I really like the build of the stuff. It's really well thought out, solid engineering.
The downside to the new installation is that it took up my coaxial input to the M51. Now I don't have a way to hook up my CD transport, which gives me easy distribution to a few amps... There is no optical out on my CDP-8, only Coax and BNC.
Can I put a splitter on the coax input and connect both the CD transport and the AP1?
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Probably, ship.
See the boxes I have in the Bay Area Meet thread to split Digital Coax signal to two DACs.
That takes one signal in and is powered- splits into two. It works and I'll have it at the meet.
I would think you could use a passive one for 2 into one output...just get a good one because the RCA switch seems to have so much bleed/cross-talk that it doesn't allow me to A/B.
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I really like the look of that Naim gear. Looking at the DAC however, there are no balanced outputs? Otherwise I kind of like the thought of that combo paired with some desktop monitors.
I'm still contemplating the Berkley Alpha 2 DAC and USB converter combo. Basically I'm torn between going that route or going the more popular route among pirates and getting the M51.
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New Sabre 9018 based DAC from Matrix looks interesting and should be priced reasonably, somewhere around $1000.
http://matrix-digi-usa.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=63&product_id=63
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/d/d2/900x900px-LL-d283382b_x-sabre_00-600x450.jpeg)
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/1/1a/900x900px-LL-1a1f72e7_x-sabre_02-600x450.jpeg)
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/c/ce/900x900px-LL-ce949332_x-sabre_04-600x450.jpeg)
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Wow, that milled chassis is very cool!
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Milling for the transformer reminds me of the analog dac:
(http://www.msbtech.com/products/AnalogPowerBaseInside.jpg)
That's some super expensive chassis work for a 1K product.
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Yeah not completely sure of pricing, but someone in the HF thread mentioned it was 7000RMB iirc which is like $1100.
edit: fixed currency flub
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I really like the look of that Naim gear. Looking at the DAC however, there are no balanced outputs? Otherwise I kind of like the thought of that combo paired with some desktop monitors.
I'm still contemplating the Berkley Alpha 2 DAC and USB converter combo. Basically I'm torn between going that route or going the more popular route among pirates and getting the M51.
Naim doesn't use XLR, the preferred connection method is DIN, with RCA sockets there for compatibility with non Naim gear. The annoying thing about Naim is they design their stuff to be used together from top to bottom. Naim source, Naim DIN cables, Naim amps, Naim NACA speaker cables which are required with anything but their integrated amps. Great if you have or want an all Naim system, not so great if you don't.
There's a whole bunch of stuff in between the Berkeley twins and the NAD DAC. What else have you considered?
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Beautiful chassis but have never heard anything from Matrix I liked. I don't know about those pics either. The only things that seem real are the front and back plate, the rest seems rendered or a model. I don't think you could possibly mill a billet aluminum block like that and only charge $1000. Could be plastic or powdered metal casting.
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There's a whole bunch of stuff in between the Berkeley twins and the NAD DAC. What else have you considered?
Keep in mind I can get the Berkley stuff at a sizable discount, so it's pretty much even keel between the Alpha 2 and M51.
I've looked at pretty much everything mentioned in this thread, all the way up to the Debussy. For a while I was considering going the extra mile and getting a PWD mk2 or the Invicta or even the Cantata, but now I'm not so sure. The M51 and discounted Alpha 2 are at a sweet spot for me.
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Keep in mind I can get the Berkley stuff at a sizable discount, so it's pretty much even keel between the Alpha 2 and M51.
I've looked at pretty much everything mentioned in this thread, all the way up to the Debussy. For a while I was considering going the extra mile and getting a PWD mk2 or the Invicta or even the Cantata, but now I'm not so sure. The M51 and discounted Alpha 2 are at a sweet spot for me.
Gotcha. If you're using USB I would definitely lean in favor of the Berkeley combo (though a hot-rodded Off-Ramp is likely to beat the Alpha USB), and I would suggest considering the Vega if you haven't already written it off.
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Beautiful chassis but have never heard anything from Matrix I liked. I don't know about those pics either. The only things that seem real are the front and back plate, the rest seems rendered or a model. I don't think you could possibly mill a billet aluminum block like that and only charge $1000. Could be plastic or powdered metal casting.
There is apparently a completed unit already in a Chinese store for demo only since there is no real pricing yet.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.10.1.qDUhzf&id=18922147026
Their other X item the X-SPDIF has the same milled aluminum chassis and it is real.
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Got email back from the US distributor. No price set yet and product is already ready to go, but distribution is waiting for Chinese new year to end. The X-Sabre weighs 8 pounds. Seems like it really is a milled piece.
I am currently waiting on my sample unit and was hoping to have it
already! It was shipped but has been delayed by the Chinese New Year
celebration that lasts a whole week. The price for North America has not
yet been set. The unit weighs 8 pounds and should be available in a
couple weeks. That is as much as I know at this point.
I have never heard a Schiit Gungnir DAC but it looks like it should
be a very good comparison with the X-Sabre. I only have one sample unit on its way
to me and that is for reviews. I will update you as soon as everyone
gets back from Chinese New Year and I receive an exact availability date
and price.
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And it has landed at Matrix USA:
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/c/c5/900x900px-LL-c56a0423_Matrix_X-Sabre_01.jpeg)
(http://matrix-digi-usa.com/image/cache/data/x-sabre/x-sabre_04-600x450.jpg)
Project86 is expecting one in a week or two. I emailed Matrix about getting one in the next 2 weeks as well.
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Heard an early AGD Ref 1 and I actually liked it through a DIY Nelson Pass design buffer/amp. Hard to say though. The AGD Ref1 seems to have gone through so many revisions, the panels look like they are going to fall off, it sounds like it's very source dependent, and it's no longer cheap...
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AGD seems to be a bit all over the place in terms of sound, and the build quality is not impressive in the least. A few years ago the prices sort of made up for that given what the competition cost, not really anymore.
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Getting the X-Sabre straight from China on the 27th apparently. Will be interesting to open her up and take some photos.
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Got the X-Sabre today. It is most certainly milled as it weighs a ton. The cover is secured with smaller size hex than I have allen wrenches at work so I'll open it up at home and take some pics.
It came with no packaging or anything else except a flash drive with drivers and such.
Finish work is first rate. Very nice looking piece. The big X-Sabre is not so striking in person. It fits with the front 'panel' well.
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(http://imageshack.us/a/img51/4267/xsabre4.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img89/118/xsabre1y.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img401/2332/xsabre2.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img21/8783/xsabre3.jpg)
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Built like a tank, Max... What are the specs?
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Here's the site:
http://matrix-digi-usa.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=63&product_id=63
I need to get a longer USB cable. Only one I have is like 2 foot long... so I'm running it coax from my cd player for now.
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Cool...It IS a tank! It'll be interesting to see how DSD takes off.
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LEDs on this are fantastic. Bright but not too bright and easily viewable from anywhere.
Viewing angle is great:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img40/5658/xsabre5.jpg)
Brightness compared to Gungnir:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img441/3350/xsabre6.jpg)
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Seriously Max, you and Valentin need to do a photography class for the rest of us... Nice work! :)p1
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I need to take a photography class for the benefit of you?
I agree! :)p3
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Wildly off topic removed.
Interesting DAC, but I'm not sold on the name. "X-SABRE" sounds like something Asus or MSI would call one of their motherboards.
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Yeah using my $150 camera on full auto. Any time I try to mess with the settings it always ends up worse :(
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Now if only Matrix could make a Transport to send DSD out over SPDIF. Go CHINA!!!
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Interesting DAC, but I'm not sold on the name. "X-SABRE" sounds like something Asus or MSI would call one of their motherboards.
I'd would be a phenomenal effing motherboard :)p1
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Successfully got it streaming DSD in Foobar (instructions on included Flash Drive), but only on some of the tracks I have. The ones marked DXD in the file name that are 2x the size show up as PCM @ 352.8KHz on the front of the X-Sabre. The bigger files are from here: http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html Not sure what I might have done wrong. Followed the guide precisely. Tried briefly in Jriver but it will take some time to get it working.
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5713/xsabre7.jpg)
edit: Got DSD working in Jriver, but have the same issue as Foobar. Some tracks are DSD some show up as PCM 352.8KHz. Wondering if this is a file format issue instead of player problem.
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Now if only Matrix could make a Transport to send DSD out over SPDIF. Go CHINA!!!
I have dreams about that happening. Sony can kiss my.................. )(
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Successfully got it streaming DSD in Foobar (instructions on included Flash Drive), but only on some of the tracks I have. The ones marked DXD in the file name that are 2x the size show up as PCM @ 352.8KHz on the front of the X-Sabre. The bigger files are from here: http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html Not sure what I might have done wrong. Followed the guide precisely. Tried briefly in Jriver but it will take some time to get it working.
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5713/xsabre7.jpg)
Not sure if you are doing anything wrong. I think the DXD files are PCM 24/352.8 files not DSD. I could be wrong. :)p17
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Oh shit you are right. I guess I assumed the largest file size would be the DSD. I should have looked at the headers better.
Downloaded the DSD version and of course it shows as DSD.
facepalm :)p8
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Oh shit you are right. I guess I assumed the largest file size would be the DSD. I should have looked at the headers better.
Downloaded the DSD version and of course it shows as DSD.
facepalm :)p8
Cool. Nice looking DAC. Looking forward to your impressions on the sound of those massive DXD files. headbang
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Took a listen to the Mozart 4th Violin track in both formats. Cycling back and forth listening for any differences. At first both were so resolving it was hard to hear anything but great music.
Now.. I don't know if I'm right or not.. I generally don't believe myself capable of hearing differences between 96 and 192, much less DSD and DXD, but I think I'm hearing a real difference between the DSD/DXD. On the DSD the violin section sounds more compressed, as if it was one person playing, but dithered slightly. On the DXD I hear individual instruments rather than a section. This is obviously splitting hairs and I'm overstating the difference, but that is what I'm noticing. The part I'm not sure at all about is that the DXD seems to have more air, more space, but I'm probably making that one up.
Going to try some of the other tracks.
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But it's good, yes?
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And was it a blind test? I bet not. That's why you get "splitting hairs" thing.
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Interesting device. How's it sound quality playing DSD? I'm considering to get a DSD over USB capable DAC. My previous "most likely" option was the Mytek. I discarded the Benchmark DAC2 since it doesn't really support native DSD and converts it into PCM. Perhaps the fellow pirates can suggest other options under 2 kilobucks.
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Sounds good but my only comparison is a Gungnir which doesn't support DSD. :)p18
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How it compares sound-wise to the Gungnir on normal PCM stuff? Would you say this Matrix is somewhat cold, analytical, fatiguing or erring in the too detailed side of things? Those are my main concerns.
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Maxvla,
If you have DSD ISOs, try using J River to convert the DSD stream into 176|192/24 LPCM into your Gungnir.
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Interesting device. How's it sound quality playing DSD? I'm considering to get a DSD over USB capable DAC. My previous "most likely" option was the Mytek. I discarded the Benchmark DAC2 since it doesn't really support native DSD and converts it into PCM. Perhaps the fellow pirates can suggest other options under 2 kilobucks.
DAC2 supports native DSD and fully implements DoP 1.0 like most DSD capable DACs.
Where it misses out for feature junkies is DSD128 support and that Benchmark doesn't support user upgradeable firmware.
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Interesting device. How's it sound quality playing DSD? I'm considering to get a DSD over USB capable DAC. My previous "most likely" option was the Mytek. I discarded the Benchmark DAC2 since it doesn't really support native DSD and converts it into PCM. Perhaps the fellow pirates can suggest other options under 2 kilobucks.
If you shop carefully you should be able to get a Lynx Hilo for $2k. Fully DSD-capable. Fully competitive as a DAC/HPA at the price point, and you effectively get a high-quality ADC for free.
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(http://imageshack.us/a/img40/5658/xsabre5.jpg)
Good angle on the photo, but you shoulda stopped down on the aperture f/16 or more to get increased depth of field. Could have been difficult in low light conditions, this can be cured with flash. I know direct flash can be nasty, so get cable with external flash and bounce off the ceiling for a quick and dirty solution if you don't want to mess with gels, cards, etc.
The angle is a little bit too sharp. Might want to circumnavigate about to the front and top of the units just a smidgen. Also use a trip-rod, like the heavy weight Manfrotto I have. Not a cheap lightweight one. Also use remote shutter.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img441/3350/xsabre6.jpg)
Obviously some focus issues here. Bad crop job. Noisy and lacks dynamic range. White balance off (you may need to manually set that.) Might want to rethink the framing of this photo. The cut-off the top looks like a bad accident. Again, proper lighting and trip-rod should do wonders. Should allow you to shoot at lower ISO so viewers can see the fine aluminum brushwork of the Gungnir.
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I had considered the Lynx too, but in Europe it's more in the 2000 € ballpark, which is a good lot more expensive than the Mytek or the Matrix.
The Benchmark is even more expensive and I'm hesitant I'd like its sound signature. I didn't like the way the DAC-1 reproduced voices, though its bottom end is rather good. In any case it was an early unit many years ago, and I've been told they've improved. I read somewhere that it doesn't convert DSD into analogue signal but converts it into PCM, then into analogue. Unfortunately I can't remember where did I get that notion, nor can be sure other DACs won't do the same.
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Some questions.
1) Would a Schiit Modi be a notable improvement over a Sandisk Clip+/motherboard line out? Kirosia likes involving sound, even at the expense of soundstage and detail.
2) Would I require an amplifier, or can I just adjust the on-board volume of the thing to which the dac is connected? Unless that defeats the purpose of the the dac's audio benefits.
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I had considered the Lynx too, but in Europe it's more in the 2000 € ballpark, which is a good lot more expensive than the Mytek or the Matrix.
The Benchmark is even more expensive and I'm hesitant I'd like its sound signature. I didn't like the way the DAC-1 reproduced voices, though its bottom end is rather good. In any case it was an early unit many years ago, and I've been told they've improved. I read somewhere that it doesn't convert DSD into analogue signal but converts it into PCM, then into analogue. Unfortunately I can't remember where did I get that notion, nor can be sure other DACs won't do the same.
I just looked up the Hilo on Thomann UK, and I see what you mean. I love mine, but I'm not sure how much I would love it at over 2100 Euro (I paid USD 2200 and the dealer threw in a set of custom Mogami/Neutrik RCA-to-XLR cables).
Do go listen to it if there's a dealer in your area, though; used ones pop up from time to time.
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Some questions.
1) Would a Schiit Modi be a notable improvement over a Sandisk Clip+/motherboard line out? Kirosia likes involving sound, even at the expense of soundstage and detail.
2) Would I require an amplifier, or can I just adjust the on-board volume of the thing to which the dac is connected? Unless that defeats the purpose of the the dac's audio benefits.
1) Yes. Clip+ is not the most involving listen.
2) Yes. Don't ever run a transducer from a Line-level output.
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I just looked up the Hilo on Thomann UK, and I see what you mean. I love mine, but I'm not sure how much I would love it at over 2100 Euro (I paid USD 2200 and the dealer threw in a set of custom Mogami/Neutrik RCA-to-XLR cables).
Do go listen to it if there's a dealer in your area, though; used ones pop up from time to time.
Thanks for the suggestion, there's an importer who might have a unit to try, I'll contact him. However that X-Sabre looks very interesting. I hope Maxvla comes back and comments about sound quality with all kind of formats. It won't be available in Europe until April, not even directly from China. Plenty of time to investigate other options, and deciding if it's worth stretching the budget.
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By then you'll have the opinions of Mike and Marv and anyone else that ventures by their place as well as my own and whoever comments on it this weekend.
All I will say at the moment that hasn't been said already is that the Gungnir is for sale walk the plank2
Actually thinking about getting a Modi and Magni to have for backups in the event I need to send off my primary DAC or amp for evaluation or between sale of old and purchase of new, etc.
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That's great. As for now I've been in contact with the Lynx importer, and he doesn't have a Hilo for demo. However we're working out a deal to try a Mytek. I might take this until the X-Saber is available, then keeping the one I like better.
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By then you'll have the opinions of Mike and Marv and anyone else that ventures by their place as well as my own and whoever comments on it this weekend.
All I will say at the moment that hasn't been said already is that the Gungnir is for sale walk the plank2
Actually thinking about getting a Modi and Magni to have for backups in the event I need to send off my primary DAC or amp for evaluation or between sale of old and purchase of new, etc.
Any other impressions in general or vs the Gungnir? I'm all over the place with DACs and what I want/need. Some days the ODAC feels like all I need, then something like the Concero, but then there is a ton in the $750 to $1500 range that seem like they would be "better" and certainly might be with the added features.
Any quick recommends at the < $500 and < $1000 levels for a well-implemented USB DAC? Would be using it with a Bottlehead S.E.X. (and possibly a Bottlehead Crack) or B22 for now and the HD800s.
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1) Yes. Clip+ is not the most involving listen.
2) Yes. Don't ever run a transducer from a Line-level output.
Damn, Kirosia was hoping to refrain from buying more audio stuffs. And then there's the desire to just wait and buy something high-end and disappear into the sunset... NO, bad Kirosia!
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Beats the Gungnir on just about all fronts, and handily at that. The biggest difference to me was removal of anything close to harshness with the Gungnir. Things that were right on the edge to where your ears start to tense up to protect themselves no longer do that. When that used to happen, I think I lost a bit of immersion when those sounds were happening. I couldn't track the background instruments properly and assess their dynamics. Now I can hear through this and I feel like I can truly hear the full song.
Sibilance is reduced and all but eliminated on tracks with ample amounts of it. Sound is more effortless, it feels like it comes out of thin air. Bass quantity is about the same, which is perfect, I didn't want any more, but there is certainly more texture to it, it's now a touchable bass, not just something played at you. Bass impact is tighter and cleaner. Soundstage size and imaging precision are about the same, but due to the greater resolution it just feels more real, more air in the same space. Again stage size and imaging were basically perfect on the Gungnir, wouldn't want any larger, and imaging was pinpoint before.
DXD is really special. Never heard anything like it. Perhaps if I tried a lower resolution version it would sound similar, but I could hear differences between the DSD and DXD so who knows. The main track I used to hear the differences was a chamber orchestra, so smaller than a full scale symphony, and I could hear individual violinists, violists, and cellists in the near ground. On the DSD it sounded thicker, less detailed, but more clean (and less realistic) as if the sound had been sanded smooth.
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Good to hear your new DAC is an improvement over the Gungnir. Doesn't come as a surprise though. The Gungnir occupies a weird space IMO. It's not the heavy hitter some make it out to be. It's inadequacies are magnified when the asking price is $1k+ in some parts and other well regarded DACs are close to parity.
The Gungnir is good for mid-tier cans that lack a level of resolve, but it's ultimately inadequate for more technically proficient and demanding headphones. I'm actually inclined to now recommend the Bifrost over the Gungnir, considering the cheaper Bifrost is a good enough stopgap. Moving on to the Gungnir is just another temporary solution, unless you're happy to end your pursuit at the LCD-2 and there are no other considerations like speakers.
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would love to get some advice:
I've been using a Dragonfly as my DAC/Amp at home, and I was very happy with the results. But last week, due to the fact that I wasn't happy with my iphone's sound quality, I bought a Fostex HP-P1 to complement it. After using the Fostex, I found it superior to the Dragonfly on both the DAC and Amp section. But, ignoring the technical differences, they still sound different.
So here's my question. If I like the sound of the Dragonfly, would a Concero be the proper upgrade to the DAC? And if I like the Fostex sound, would a Fostex HP-A8 be the proper upgrade? (not implying I like one type of sound over the other at all)
Any other DAC upgrade advice would be greatly appreciated; thanks in advance
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I wouldn't limit yourself to only the manufacturers you've been exposed to, there are too many good choices out there!
What's you budget?
What's your whole chain going to look like?
What's important to you about the DAC you want to buy? (For example, it HAS to be small, or I want to use optical, or whatever)
Give us some more and we can steer you somewhere... :wheel:
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I wouldn't limit yourself to only the manufacturers you've been exposed to, there are too many good choices out there!
What's you budget?
What's your whole chain going to look like?
What's important to you about the DAC you want to buy? (For example, it HAS to be small, or I want to use optical, or whatever)
Give us some more and we can steer you somewhere... :wheel:
um... I dont have an exact budget, I just usually figure out where a sweet spot is, and adjust my spending accordingly. For the sake of argument, let's say a soft 2k (my TH-900 money, but I can get that later). But if a DAC is over 1k, it better be DSD capable ( I have both a 60g PS3 in need of a new blu ray drive, and a deadstock 60g PS3, and will be ripping SACD soon).
chain? I mostly use a w3000anv headphone. don't even have a suitable amp (ill use the hp-p1 if neccessary).
I prefer USB, cause Ill probably like to have DSD option.
thing is, I dont like doing arbitrage, so I prefer my equipment to last a year or 2 before I have to upgrade. I really dont like doing the selling and buying of used equipment.
thanks again for your time
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unrelated, but do you guys have any opinion of these ADCs?
http://www.amazon.com/Korg-MR-2000S-BK-RackMount-Digital-Recorder/dp/B0067XY5XC/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2YEZGO46FR21K&coliid=I3UG5N7T4EPXL7
http://www.amazon.com/TASCAM-DV-RA1000HD-Resolution-Stereo-Recorder/dp/B000YZ5HLS/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2YEZGO46FR21K&coliid=I2QXVYMUBP8TNG
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I'm a huuuuuge fan of the Concero, but if I were in the market for a sub-$1k DAC right now I would be taking a long, hard look at the new TEAC.
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That TEAC sure looks like a mess of everything but the kitchen sink inside. I'll pass on a so called 'DAC' w/ a headphone out and a pot. I guess a Burr Brown DAC is the closest you'll get to a Phillips NOS DAC other than a 1704. Neither sound like the ESS in the DF at all. If you want features and convenience, go for it. AKMs (Fostex/CEntrance) do tend to sound closer to ESS chips. However, implementation is everything so....
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Heard the X-Sabre in a lot of rigs today after listening to the original DAC in the setup. Easily my favorite there. I wasn't that impressed by the perfectwave honestly. Had my HD800 and a WA6SE with it. A bit sibilant and lacking impact. Could have been the Woo. I heard the DLIII as well and it was bland.
Will be interested to hear what you guys think.
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No, not lacking impact. PWD has very good bass. You need to move the DAC to your amp/rig/source/tracks. Comparing DACs doesn't work like that. When something piques my interest I wait towards the end when it thins out and start swapping gear or we ask folks if they want to setup AB stations.
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Max, do you have Amperex Bugle Boys in your WA6SE?
PM shipsupt about those for use with HD800.
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We were packed til right up to tear down time, but I was ripping up rigs all day throwing the matrix into them.
My favorite rig of the day was my x-sabre to gs-x v2 into my HD800.
I don't have a WA6SE I did have a WA6 normal at one point but no longer. I have the BHA-1 as my only amp.
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Maybe I need to hear a GSX v.2 if you like it more than the BHA-1. I find the BHA-1 much better than the Gilmore Lite and pretty on par w/ a Dynahi but different presentations.
I have heard some recent SS prototypes that give me hope in the future, that's all I can say. ;)
Look forward to hearing the SABRE versus the PWD mk2.
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I found the GSX2 kind of harsh, all though to be fair it may have been the Oppo. Or even that I had the volume up to counter the meet back ground noise. But the GSX 2 was harsh as hell on Gustav The planets. When the trumpets come in, they were harsh enough to make me take notes about it.
Not going to blame the amp, too many variables at play here.
Back on topic, I liked what I heard from the xsabre. I a/bed it in my own setup (hd800 + s7 or phonitor) against my dac (da11) and it sounded a little brighter, but I liked it.
I'm with Maxvla, the ps audio dacs aren't my cup of tea. They sound stepped and digital. The LL2 feeding the 009s out of the ps audio didn't really wow me. When we switched the source to the Oppo, I liked it more, but it wasn't until the Ayon that I really saw how good the 009s are. Best cymbal rendering I've ever heard by a pretty decent amount.
All though I think I might prefer the LL2 feeding the he60s even more. It's not as accurate, but it was the phone I'd rather listen to for 2 hours straight.
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So the GSX2 and PWT/PWD were harsh. Hmmm.... Were the tracks harsh? If you want to smooth out bad recording on the PWD you can switch to filter 4 and upsample to higher bit rates. It sounds wrong but would be more 'pleasant'.
You should look into some NOS tubes btw for the S7.
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I don't consider The Planets to be harsh no. I went back and listened to it on my system and it was fine. But again, there could be other explanations, like having the volume up to high to counter meet noise. I was sitting next to some conversations so I had it up high. I'm not going to call the GSX2 harsh based on a less than ideal listening experience.
I plan to, I want to source some the Sylvania GTA chromes. Haven't seen many good places to buy them. Any suggestions?
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I heard the GS-X with the Oppo first and it was decent but not great. I then got Justin to switch in my x-sabre and it really smoothed out and opened up.
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I plan to, I want to source some the Sylvania GTA chromes. Haven't seen many good places to buy them. Any suggestions?
Trusted Ebayers w/ 100% ratings.
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Just realized, purrin's, mine and CT's PWDs started as mk1s and upgraded to mk2s. I wonder if any changes happened on the analog side to new production mk2s.
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Just realized, purrin's, mine and CT's PWDs started as mk1s and upgraded to mk2s. I wonder if any changes happened on the analog side to new production mk2s.
You guys need to get a true MK2 and do a comparison! Now that's going to be some tedious work... but the idea kind of makes you wonder right!?
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Sending the X-Sabre to Mike+Marv tonight. Should get there early next week. Bracing for the inevitable "PWD2 trounces this thing". :-DD
If any of you live near them you might be able to stop by while it's there if you are interested in trying it out.
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It's begun even before I've shipped it. LOL.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/650686/new-flagship-dac-from-matrix-audio-the-x-sabre/180#post_9233069
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He's just pissed I called him out for releasing confidential emails and lying about it. I didn't mean to upset Head-fi's new audio expert.
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Mike, maybe you can get banned twice! walk the plank walk the plank2
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So, have any pirates had a chance to listen to the new Benchmark DAC2 yet? Haven't seen much in the way of impressions since it's so new.
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So, have any pirates had a chance to listen to the new Benchmark DAC2 yet? Haven't seen much in the way of impressions since it's so new.
Hey MF. I've had the DAC2 in my place for a few weeks. I don't think it's a huge step up from the DAC1, but to be fair, I actually liked the DAC1 quite a bit. It is slightly less forward and harsh, but no less clean and analytical. I've had such limited experience with some of the other DACs (like the PWD) that I don't want to even try making a comparison, but at least when compared with the DAC1, I think it's an improvement.
Now, how do I sweet-talk you into selling me the ZDSE. :P
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So, have any pirates had a chance to listen to the new Benchmark DAC2 yet? Haven't seen much in the way of impressions since it's so new.
Bought and sold. Didn't have the harshness of the DAC1 (as many have reported, and was a stated goal to sound more "analog") but isn't really any more detailed either. Its competitive at its bracket, but I think the Mytek is very similar and is on par for resolution (and may do DSD better to boot, thought to be honest I haven't fiddled much with DSD yet.)
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So, what would Benchmark's (John's) response be to obtaining a more analogue sound if the measurements are the same or better than the DAC1? Did he have to sacrifice a particular objectively measured metric to get this 'analogue' sound? If not, what did he change? I find this an interesting turn tbh based on the recent fad of everything (not broken) sounds the same.
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My guess is he did a carefully tweaked modification to the marketing copy to include the word analogue.
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So, what would Benchmark's (John's) response be to obtaining a more analogue sound if the measurements are the same or better than the DAC1? Did he have to sacrifice a particular objectively measured metric to get this 'analogue' sound? If not, what did he change? I find this an interesting turn tbh based on the recent fad of everything (not broken) sounds the same.
Given the fact that D-D converters can sound different, I've always found it astonishing that people seem to think that vastly more complex D-A would be identical, provided you can show a few measured results to be "below audible threshold." Then again, some people seem to think that S/Pdif is literally a string of green 1s and 0s traveling along a cable, because you know, The Matrix.
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I am wondering if anyone could provide comments on some sub $1,500 DACs. I have been doing a lot of reading and find the discussions tend to go around in circles. I think at some point I will have to bite the bullet and buy something so that I can at least get a feel for what I might like as I don't have many opportunities to try stuff out. I am thinking of the schiit gugnir, resonessence concero, or mytek dac 192 but don't feel that close to being able to make a decision. Any other suggestions I should be looking at?
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I am wondering if anyone could provide comments on some sub $1,500 DACs. I have been doing a lot of reading and find the discussions tend to go around in circles. I think at some point I will have to bite the bullet and buy something so that I can at least get a feel for what I might like as I don't have many opportunities to try stuff out. I am thinking of the schiit gugnir, resonessence concero, or mytek dac 192 but don't feel that close to being able to make a decision. Any other suggestions I should be looking at?
The Anedio D2 comes in at $1470 and is a very solid choice. There's also the EE Minimax DAC Plus, the upcoming John Kenny Ciunas DAC, the new Metrum Octave MK2 (unsure of pricing on that), and the Lindemann DAC. There's quite a bit on the new Matrix X-sabre ($1100) around these parts. Sonore's DAC is $1300.
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I am wondering if anyone could provide comments on some sub $1,500 DACs. I have been doing a lot of reading and find the discussions tend to go around in circles. I think at some point I will have to bite the bullet and buy something so that I can at least get a feel for what I might like as I don't have many opportunities to try stuff out. I am thinking of the schiit gugnir, resonessence concero, or mytek dac 192 but don't feel that close to being able to make a decision. Any other suggestions I should be looking at?
My love for the Concero is hardly a secret. I think its price-to-value ratio is as favorable as any audio product out there.
Resonessence has announced a forthcoming revision to the Concero, which will involve the substitution of a higher-end ESS Sabre DAC to allow for native DSD capabilities (the current Concero uses the Sabre 9023 which cannot do DSD). No info on pricing as of yesterday.
If your budget can stretch to $1,850, check out the Lynx Hilo. You may also find used NAD M51s at around that price.
I haven't heard the TEAC UD-501, but it has a pretty extensive feature-set for $849, and at least one favorable review to its credit.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/teac-ud-501-dual-monarual-pcmdsd-usb-digital-analog-converter
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Thanks for the suggestions. It seems like new DACs are coming out quite frequently as the technology changes. I am trying to find that sweet spot between price and performance. I worry that the difference between a $1000 and a $1500 dac is going to be a lot smaller than the difference between $1500 and $2000, in which case I would rather get something cheaper like the Concero until I can afford to upgrade into the $2000 plus range.
The other thing is I am really only interested in a DAC, any unit with a built in headphone out seems useless to me as I am also going to get a nice high end tube amp. With something like the Anedio is it a $1000 DAC with a $500 headphone amp, or is the headphone amp just a little add on?
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The other thing is I am really only interested in a DAC, any unit with a built in headphone out seems useless to me as I am also going to get a nice high end tube amp. With something like the Anedio is it a $1000 DAC with a $500 headphone amp, or is the headphone amp just a little add on?
The Anedio's HPA is decent, but it's mostly there as a bonus feature. The Burson Conductor is much more focused on the HPA side. Are you planning to use USB? There's a considerable difference in USB performance between many of the DACs in the ~$1000 level.
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USB is going to be my primary input method, so having the best possible USB performance seems like a good criteria. The only other feature I would like is an optical input so that I could connect the DAC to my PS3, however it is certainly not a requirement, just something extra I am considering to increase the functionality (ie. justify to my girlfriend).
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USB is going to be my primary input method, so having the best possible USB performance seems like a good criteria. The only other feature I would like is an optical input so that I could connect the DAC to my PS3, however it is certainly not a requirement, just something extra I am considering to increase the functionality (ie. justify to my girlfriend).
The John Kenny Ciunas is USB only. I'm not that familiar with the Concero, but I don't think you can switch between the USB and S/Pdif inputs, I think it's either/or. In any case, there's no optical. The Lindemann DAC can run via the included wall-wart, or potentially USB power I'm not sure. I think when externally powered, its USB input is self powered rather than bus powered which is a big plus when compared to a lot of other DACs in its price range. You can also replace the wall-wart with something like a Hynes 5V LPS or a Bakoon 5V battery supply, which should increase the performance quite a bit. It has USB, optical, and coax inputs.
The Anedio gets you the HPA and balanced outputs, but the USB input is just OK, not great. The Metrum Octave MK2 uses the same input board and optional USB board as the Hex, so you get 192Khz capability, and an excellent USB input.
The Sonore DAC is USB only, and the X-Sabre has no optical input. The Minimax has all the required inputs, but I'm unsure of how the USB stacks up to the competition.
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I looked a little bit further into your suggestions. It seems the Sonore, Minimax and Metrum Octave use the M2 tech usb board. I am bit concerned about that as I have heard some not so great things about the M2 tech usb technology. I will have to look into this a bit more.
The John Kenny Ciunas looks interesting but I am not sure I want to try out new technology from a smaller producer without hearing what other people think about it at this point.
I wonder if the Concero DSD or the Schiit statement DAC will be released anytime soon?
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I wonder if the Concero DSD or the Schiit statement DAC will be released anytime soon?
Supposedly, the prototype is being shown today at the Montreal Show.
http://www.salonsonimage.com/
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I looked a little bit further into your suggestions. It seems the Sonore, Minimax and Metrum Octave use the M2 tech usb board. I am bit concerned about that as I have heard some not so great things about the M2 tech usb technology. I will have to look into this a bit more.
The John Kenny Ciunas looks interesting but I am not sure I want to try out new technology from a smaller producer without hearing what other people think about it at this point.
The OEM Hiface USB board can be good or bad, it depends on how you use it. The USB input on the W4S DAC2 is M2Tech and it stinks. The Empirical Off-Ramp and the Overdrive also use M2Tech, and they produce some of the best sound on the market. From everything I've heard, Metrum's modifications have produced excellent results. I don't know about the Sonore and the Minimax.
John has come a long way since his Hiface mod MK1, which was basically a battery pack strapped to the clocks. The MK3 JKSPDIF has been described on roughly equal terms with the Audiophilleo 2, which is very good company to be in, and the JKDAC32 was well reviewed.
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I am wondering if anyone could provide comments on some sub $1,500 DACs. I have been doing a lot of reading and find the discussions tend to go around in circles. I think at some point I will have to bite the bullet and buy something so that I can at least get a feel for what I might like as I don't have many opportunities to try stuff out. I am thinking of the schiit gugnir, resonessence concero, or mytek dac 192 but don't feel that close to being able to make a decision. Any other suggestions I should be looking at?
The Anedio D2 comes in at $1470 and is a very solid choice. There's also the EE Minimax DAC Plus, the upcoming John Kenny Ciunas DAC, the new Metrum Octave MK2 (unsure of pricing on that), and the Lindemann DAC. There's quite a bit on the new Matrix X-sabre ($1100) around these parts. Sonore's DAC is $1300.
I used the Metrum Octave for a while . I really was impressed with its natural, unforced, detailed response of just about any type of Acoustic music, in particular "live perspective" Classical recordings. It does a very nice job of delineating the ambient cues of the various "choirs" of instrument sections within an orchestra. I was so impressed I decided to see what the Metrum "statement" DAC (the Hex) could do. Whenever you move up to component that's 3x the cost of the one it's replacing you wonder if it was a worthwhile move. I don't know what the actual ratio of improvement over the Octave is as the Octave set the performance bar pretty high, but there is a substantial magnification of the Octave's qualities
Occasionally, you will see theoretical discussions of the weaknesses of NonOverSampling DACs compared to Upsampling DAC (& is'nt it interesting that a many of these discussions are initiated by persons with investments in Upsampling designs, no bias here, I think not). Supposedly , Metrum's are'nt typical NOS designs. Try as I might I'm not finding any rolled of HF.
I don't really listen to any non Acoustic based/studio recorded music anymore so I can't comment on how it will do. If I make any changes in my system that alter the character my current playback sound that change will be rolled back to preserve my current sound prefrences.
Curiously, it is pretty unusual that I even browsed through a DAC thread as I'm not really in need of finding new DAC info. Hope I was able to give you some information for your search.
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Metrum DACs seem to be a love/hate thing for a lot of people. Some adore them, others have cited supposedly disastrous measurements from the (I believe BB sourced) "industrial" NOS DACs as the reason for why they stink. I have no experience with them so I can't make any judgement either way. Despite the measurements I do really want to see what the Hex can do.
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Thanks for the suggestions. It seems like new DACs are coming out quite frequently as the technology changes. I am trying to find that sweet spot between price and performance. I worry that the difference between a $1000 and a $1500 dac is going to be a lot smaller than the difference between $1500 and $2000, in which case I would rather get something cheaper like the Concero until I can afford to upgrade into the $2000 plus range.
The other thing is I am really only interested in a DAC, any unit with a built in headphone out seems useless to me as I am also going to get a nice high end tube amp. With something like the Anedio is it a $1000 DAC with a $500 headphone amp, or is the headphone amp just a little add on?
Well, if you do actually end up wanting an Anedio D2, contact them. I know they say on their website that the current batch is sold out. But when I emailed them a week ago about the next batch, they said they had a couple units left from the current batch ready for sale.
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Metrum DACs seem to be a love/hate thing for a lot of people. Some adore them, others have cited supposedly disastrous measurements from the (I believe BB sourced) "industrial" NOS DACs as the reason for why they stink. I have no experience with them so I can't make any judgement either way. Despite the measurements I do really want to see what the Hex can do.
Only you can decide if you like what it does !
I'm a bit curious as to the mention of what others have said. Are you being graded on your memory retention of all that you have read. I didn't realize there were going to be tests or I wouldn't have registered. Are we required to write commentary on the various information we acquire & back reference it to other things we've read ?
I do realize these impressions are, or should be, nothing more than a "mental checklist" for future consideration , but you should seriously consider whether passing on this information trivializes the information that someone took the time to carefully describe to you . Yes this is an open forum, but these comments come off as "Look how on top of things I am" & not about personal discovery through the individual bits of information we collect. Everyone had the same opportunity to see the other information the first time around.
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Metrum DACs seem to be a love/hate thing for a lot of people. Some adore them, others have cited supposedly disastrous measurements from the (I believe BB sourced) "industrial" NOS DACs as the reason for why they stink. I have no experience with them so I can't make any judgement either way. Despite the measurements I do really want to see what the Hex can do.
Only you can decide if you like what it does !
I'm a bit curious as to the mention of what others have said. Are you being graded on your memory retention of all that you have read. I didn't realize there were going to be tests or I wouldn't have registered. Are we required to write commentary on the various information we acquire & back reference it to other things we've read ?
I do realize these impressions are, or should be, nothing more than a "mental checklist" for future consideration , but you should seriously consider whether passing on this information trivializes the information that someone took the time to carefully describe to you . Yes this is an open forum, but these comments come off as "Look how on top of things I am" & not about personal discovery through the individual bits of information we collect. Everyone had the same opportunity to see the other information the first time around.
What I'm saying is, there's a bit of controversy around the Metrum DACs, and I believe that potential Metrum buyers should know about it. I'm not saying that they are equivalent to the HD700, but I am saying that the DACs produce results on paper that are somewhat questionable. Buyers should go in with their eyes open about that. Like I said, I don't have the experience to make a definitive judgement on them, and so I haven't, and I've still recommended that people looking in the $1,000 to $1,500 range at least consider the Octave MK2 as an option.
If you're expecting Head-fi appreciation threads here, you won't find them.
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What would be a good DAC <1200$
-No USB input needed
-No HP amp needed
-Preferebly 2 coax, 1 optical. But 1 coax 1 optical is fine too
I prefer to pay only for what I need, and alot of DAC's out there are focused on the USB input and/or a HP out.
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LOL. Where have you been. See the DAC worksheet. Two such DACs in a direct comparison and mention of one other DAC.
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Woops, your right, the Gungnir you can buy without USB. That seems like my best bet. I would like the 'plankton extraction' :P, but I'm afraid that when I buy the X-Sabre I pay alot for the whole USB integration etc. and it has no Optical input, which kinda drops it off the list for me.
Purrin/Anax, did you choose these DAC's as a 'top DAC's to compare to each other', or were the choice's just based on their popularity? I ask this because I wonder how they stack up to the REGA dac, Spitfire, Metrum etc.
edit: Oops sorry, didn't know the DAC Comparison spreadsheet was an ongoing thing :). Sorry disregard my questions :)p7
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What would be a good DAC <1200$
-No USB input needed
-No HP amp needed
-Preferebly 2 coax, 1 optical. But 1 coax 1 optical is fine too
I prefer to pay only for what I need, and alot of DAC's out there are focused on the USB input and/or a HP out.
Aside from Schiit, the Minimax. There are usually Cary Xciter DACs floating around for about $1,000, but I'm not sure it's a match for the already mentioned DACs.
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Anyone have any experience with the Wavelength DACS? I'm particularly interested in the balanced Crimson.
What about units such as the Audiophilleo or the Offramp series?
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Who mentioned anything about "any" Head case nonsense.
I don't give a crap if someone else has a different view , my question was why did "you" think it was important enough to mention that there is much discrepancy of opinion over the Metrum's mostly due to the fact that they don't measure the way some of the "popular" DACs do (Boo Hoo, you didn't hear me come out & say I think every Upsampling DAC I've had or listened to "all" had upper frequency characteristics that I couldn't live with regardless of any system changes I'd made) (Oops,I just did)
There is another option I can think of . You have an interest in one of these DAC only If no one knows . I've pretty much just reworded what I said my last posting ,& you didn't "get it then" or you refused to admit to anything , so have good time mentioning the DACs you have interest to others. You can save yourself the effort of responding with another of your "I'm just an Everyman in search of worthy audio component" populist babbling on my account.
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Who mentioned anything about "any" Head case nonsense.
I don't give a crap if someone else has a different view , my question was why did "you" think it was important enough to mention that there is much discrepancy of opinion over the Metrum's mostly due to the fact that they don't measure the way some of the "popular" DACs do (Boo Hoo, you didn't hear me come out & say I think every Upsampling DAC I've had or listened to "all" had upper frequency characteristics that I couldn't live with regardless of any system changes I'd made) (Oops,I just did)
There is another option I can think of . You have an interest in one of these DAC only If no one knows . I've pretty much just reworded what I said my last posting ,& you didn't "get it then" or you refused to admit to anything , so have good time mentioning the DACs you have interest to others. You can save yourself the effort of responding with another of your "I'm just an Everyman in search of worthy audio component" populist babbling on my account.
WTF are "you" babbling about? Who the fuck are you? You seem to take any criticism of Metrum as a personal attack. The Metrums have for the most part been widely praised. Are they perfect? NO. Are there some potential issues? YES. Have I personally slammed the Metrum DACs, or even told anyone not to buy them? NO. If you can't handle any criticism of your precious baby, this is the wrong forum for you dude. Maybe educate yourself a bit before you start calling me a shill.
Also, I find it hilarious that you go around calling people "golden ear challenged" while listening to your HD700s, one of the worst headphones in recent Sennheiser history.
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LoL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o)
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LoL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o)
No kidding...welcome to the wild west
On a more related note, does anyone have any comments on the Anedio D2? I know there are a lot of reviews elsewhere, just wondering what the people around here think of it.
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LoL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fuDDqU6n4o)
No kidding...welcome to the wild west
On a more related note, does anyone have any comments on the Anedio D2? I know there are a lot of reviews elsewhere, just wondering what the people around here think of it.
I've heard it compared against the NAD M51 when I was DAC-hunting.
It has essentially the same tonal balance as the NAD M51, but less detail retrieval (you need to listen harder). The focus is more on a smooth coherent presentation (not to say the NAD M51 isn't coherent) and I felt that the lower end extension is slightly lacking.
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WTF are "you" babbling about? Who the fuck are you? You seem to take any criticism of Metrum as a personal attack. The Metrums have for the most part been widely praised. Are they perfect? NO. Are there some potential issues? YES. Have I personally slammed the Metrum DACs, or even told anyone not to buy them? NO. If you can't handle any criticism of your precious baby, this is the wrong forum for you dude. Maybe educate yourself a bit before you start calling me a shill.
Also, I find it hilarious that you go around calling people "golden ear challenged" while listening to your HD700s, one of the worst headphones in recent Sennheiser history.
Nah, I think English is probably your second language given your conclusions to what you think I've said . I hope you get a handle, on your anger issues ,at least, if you are'nt able to improve your comprehension skills.
Let's see ... Never claimed "you" ever slammed anything or told anyone not to buy something . How do you get that I'm calling you a shill. There's a diff. in passing on or sharing info & trying to "educate" people about things .My only point period.
I didn't think that I was being that vague about saying that.
So go take a chill pill & forget we ever had a discussion about anything , anytime or anyplace. I have already . If it makes you feel better that you just "schooled" me knock yourself out (I would look into taking some comprehension skill classes though) I'm done (don't forget that chill pill or beverage)
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USB is going to be my primary input method, so having the best possible USB performance seems like a good criteria. The only other feature I would like is an optical input so that I could connect the DAC to my PS3, however it is certainly not a requirement, just something extra I am considering to increase the functionality (ie. justify to my girlfriend).
I'm not that familiar with the Concero, but I don't think you can switch between the USB and S/Pdif inputs, I think it's either/or.
The next generation of the Concero will allow both inputs to be hot at the same time. I never quite understood why this was a big deal to some people, because switching between inputs required two clicks of the remote, but hey, YMMV.
Resonessence is highly responsive to user feedback, and their design philosophy (heavily reliant on FPGAs to implement functions) allows for pretty quick changes (e.g., they implemented balanced headphone output on the Invicta by a firmware update).
Rumors out of Montreal (a few people who visited the Resonessence room at SSI have posted at HF) put the price of the next-gen Concero at $800. If it sounds as good as the current model, and adds native DSD and up to 384/32 PCM support, it's still a great value IMO.
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One thing I would like to see on a future Concero is a DC-in jack. That opens up a ton of possibilities for alternate power methods, all of which are better than the Vbus line. Granted a Y-type cable or one of those cables with the 5V line spliced out into a DC jack would technically do the job, but a jack on the DAC itself would at least simplify things a lot.
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I agree, If the Concero could easily run on a separate power supply then I would have already bought one.
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One thing I would like to see on a future Concero is a DC-in jack. That opens up a ton of possibilities for alternate power methods, all of which are better than the Vbus line. Granted a Y-type cable or one of those cables with the 5V line spliced out into a DC jack would technically do the job, but a jack on the DAC itself would at least simplify things a lot.
An email to Mark Mallinson is much more likely to get you what you want than a post on any on-line forum (although they do monitor the Invicta and Concero threads on HF).
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I agree, If the Concero could easily run on a separate power supply then I would have already bought one.
If I were in my office, I would take a picture with my phone of my Concero easily running on a separate power supply and post it here. Surely you're aware of the iFi USB power supply, yes?
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Yes I have seen the iFi power supply. My problem is, add on a $200 power supply to a $650 DAC and now it is an $850 DAC. At that point I am not sure the Concero is providing as much value. As far as I can tell, the USB cable would still be carrying the power from the iFi to the concero (please correct me if I am wrong), which doesn't seem ideal either. If size was a concern then the Concero still seems like good value. My point was that without the external power supply the Concero isn't quite perfect for me right out of the box.
That being said, I am still considering it due to the Concero's ability to provide the secondary function of USB to Coaxial converter. I think it is a valuable feature for someone who would be looking to upgrade in the future. I haven't seen anything in the sub $1500 range that really grabs me. With the rate that new DACs are coming out (and technology like DSD filtering down from the high end), I can see myself being happy with the Concero while I wait for something else to come along.
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If I were in my office, I would take a picture with my phone of my Concero easily running on a separate power supply and post it here. Surely you're aware of the iFi USB power supply, yes?
Hi burnspbesq,
So from the above I assume you are using the iFi USB PS ? Did it make an audible difference to Concero ? If yes, could you give your impression ?
Cheers,
R
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If I were in my office, I would take a picture with my phone of my Concero easily running on a separate power supply and post it here. Surely you're aware of the iFi USB power supply, yes?
Hi burnspbesq,
So from the above I assume you are using the iFi USB PS ? Did it make an audible difference to Concero ? If yes, could you give your impression ?
Cheers,
R
Not a night-and-day difference, but a noticeable improvement. Hard to describe, except to say that with the iFi, you get a bit more of everything you already like about the Concero. I don't regret having bought it, but with the benefit of hindsight and experience I'm not sure it's a must-have.
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Not a night-and-day difference, but a noticeable improvement. Hard to describe, except to say that with the iFi, you get a bit more of everything you already like about the Concero.
I don't regret having bought it, but with the benefit of hindsight and experience I'm not sure it's a must-have.
Ta.
One more question: are you using USB as source ?
I noted on RL website that you can hook an idevice type charger into a power only USB port and the Concero SPDIF becomes a digital input.
If you use an iFi PS & plug Concero into a data USB port, will Concero stay as a USB DAC ? If you don't know, I'll ask RL.
Cheers,
R
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Not a night-and-day difference, but a noticeable improvement. Hard to describe, except to say that with the iFi, you get a bit more of everything you already like about the Concero.
I don't regret having bought it, but with the benefit of hindsight and experience I'm not sure it's a must-have.
Ta.
One more question: are you using USB as source ?
I noted on RL website that you can hook an idevice type charger into a power only USB port and the Concero SPDIF becomes a digital input.
If you use an iFi PS & plug Concero into a data USB port, will Concero stay as a USB DAC ? If you don't know, I'll ask RL.
Cheers,
R
Yes, I am using USB as the source.
I think you're misunderstanding how the iFi works. It takes a power+signal input from the computer, somehow gets rid of the power from the compute and substitutes its own power, and sends out power and signal via USB. You can either use a conventional USB 2.0 cable to connect the iFi to the Concero, in which power and signal travel together for the entire length of that cable, or (if you can find one) you can use a two-headed cable to separate power and signal until they meet up again at the USB B connector. Either way, power and signal are going into the Concero via the same USB input.
http://www.ifi-audio.com/en/iUSB.html
I don't know whether it's possible to feed only power to the Concero from the iFi via USB and feed a S/PDIF signal via the coax RCA input. In theory it should be, since you can do that with the supplied iPhone power supply.
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Ta for the response. I just wanted confirmation that it all worked on Concero from USB with iFi PS.
Be interesting to see what the revised Concero will be like with the upgraded DAC chip.
Cheers,
Raksy.
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The empirical audio off ramp discussion that is going on has got me thinking about DAC's again. Right now I am considering getting an older, high end non-usb dac and then using the Off Ramp (basic model) to perform USB input duties. I saw an ad for a Northstar 192 DAC which got me thinking about this possibility.
I am looking at around the $2000 mark now since the amp I want is cheaper than I was budgeting for. The other options that seem good are NAD m51, Anedio D2, and maybe a used PWD2. Using the Off Ramp with a new cheaper sub $1000 DAC like the Gugnir is also an idea. It is entirely possible that I am overstating the ability of the Off Ramp to bump up the sound quality of mid-fi DACs, but given that 99% of my use will be with a usb input I am trying to find alternative ways to optimize my budget for this use.
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The empirical audio off ramp discussion that is going on has got me thinking about DAC's again. Right now I am considering getting an older, high end non-usb dac and then using the Off Ramp (basic model) to perform USB input duties. I saw an ad for a Northstar 192 DAC which got me thinking about this possibility.
I am looking at around the $2000 mark now since the amp I want is cheaper than I was budgeting for. The other options that seem good are NAD m51, Anedio D2, and maybe a used PWD2. Using the Off Ramp with a new cheaper sub $1000 DAC like the Gugnir is also an idea. It is entirely possible that I am overstating the ability of the Off Ramp to bump up the sound quality of mid-fi DACs, but given that 99% of my use will be with a usb input I am trying to find alternative ways to optimize my budget for this use.
The OR is much more of a source upgrade than a DAC upgrade. You are lowering the jitter and improving the overall output of your source, in much the same way as buying a high-end CD transport would improve the performance of the system. Given your budget, you might want to consider DACs like a used Berkeley Alpha S1 ($2-2.5K) or a Burl B2 Bomber ($2.5K). Neither has USB, but with the OR obviously you don't need it.
PWD MK1s that have been upgraded to MK2s can use the good sounding firmware. Upgrade boards are no longer available, and production MKIIs are stuck with the inferior firmware. A LOT of PWDs are being dumped.. but then again lots of PS DACs are always being dumped so take that for what you will.
The release of the Alpha S2 caused values of S1s to crash to their current level, but that doesn't make it a bad DAC, while the PWD MK1 WAS a bad DAC. Some Alpha S1s can be upgraded and some can't, depends on the serial.
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Thanks for the help Dave! I probably should have been clearer though, I don't actually own the OR5, so my budget would have to include the cost of the base model OR5. The Northstar 192 is interesting to me because as far as I can tell it would utilize the I2S function of the OR5.
I guess my question is, if my source is only going to be USB would I be better off using my budget to upgrade my source (OR5) and purchase a DAC, or just purchase a DAC (must be USB capable)?
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So to make the most of the OR, one should use a DAC with I2S input?
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So a HiFace2 at $185 vs. an OR5 at $1299. Is the OR5 7x the gear (well, maybe by sheer physical dimensions and # of components in it) and improvement in sound or is it on the order of <2x? Also are the drivers for the HiFace2 compatible with the OR5?
When we talk about this being the best sound from a USB to SPDIF (and possibly I2S for PWDII owners) converter, what degree of improvement are we talking about? Budget will always factor in during any quest/pursuit of aural orgasm, unfortunately, so if the HiFace2 achieves about 25-50% of what the OR5 gains me, it might be worth looking into. If it's a micro improvement on "plain shit" USB direct to DAC, then there's no point obviously.
Searched over the site but didn't see many mentions of folks using HiFace2 via SPDIF to their DACs here. Saw some stuff at HF but mostly the usual suspects on that thread spewing the same stuff. If no one has this, I might just spring for one, send it over to you nutjobs in SoCal to measure and review it to see if it even makes any significant difference to a computer-source.
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From my own research, I am not sure that the HiFace2 would be that big of an improvement over the USB input on your DAC. I believe that most DACs essentially have a built in USB to SPDIF converter built in to them in order to utilize a USB input, and there are only a couple of different companies that make the technology to do this. The DAC makers then license this technology from these companies. This means it is entirely possible that you already have roughly the same USB conversion tech in your DAC. I am sure that Dave will be able to chime in and correct me if I am wrong.
The Off Ramp was developed from the HiFace technology, but with a lot of additional electronic things going on that I know nothing about. I don't have any direct experience with the HiFace2 so I can't say whether it will sound better or not. Which DAC are you using?
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Thanks for the help Dave! I probably should have been clearer though, I don't actually own the OR5, so my budget would have to include the cost of the base model OR5. The Northstar 192 is interesting to me because as far as I can tell it would utilize the I2S function of the OR5.
I guess my question is, if my source is only going to be USB would I be better off using my budget to upgrade my source (OR5) and purchase a DAC, or just purchase a DAC (must be USB capable)?
Ah, ok I gotcha. I thought you meant that you had ~$2K to spend on the DAC plus the cost of an OR. I'm not that familiar with the brand, but from what I've seen of Northstar stuff I wouldn't go for one just for the I2S. They don't seem all that compelling in terms of performance. There are a lot more choices in the $1-1.5K range with asynchronous USB inputs - Anedio D2, Eastern Electric Minimax DAC Plus, Matrix X-Sabre, Sonore DAC, Metrum Octave MKII, Calyx DAC and others that I'm either forgetting or intentionally leaving out like the Zodiac and W4S DAC-2 because I don't like them.
The Anedio's USB input is literally just their U2 USB > S/Pdif converter mounted inside the chassis. It is converted to S/Pdif internally and then connected to the DAC's WM8805 digital receiver with a short length of wire. It's a very unorthodox way to do it (pretty much all other asynch USB DACs have a direct internal I2S path to the DAC) but it works and it has galvanic isolation which a lot of DACs don't. Performance wise it should be roughly the same as using something like a Stello U3 through the S/Pdif input. Not quite state of the art, but really not bad. You're getting roughly a $400 level converter, and the actual Anedio DAC is definitely worth the remaining $1,000.
The Minimax, Matrix, and Sonore USB implementations I don't know much about or how they would compare to others. The Metrum uses the same optional modified Hiface OEM board as the Hex. From what I understand it's very good, comparable to some of the top USB converters. The Calyx is definitely best used with either the Calyx LPS or a 5V battery supply like the Bakoon, which makes it a $2K proposition. With USB power or the wall-wart it's not that great.
Using an OR5 with these DACs should improve their performance by a fair amount, some more than others. The Sonore only has a USB input, so you're stuck there with whatever it gives you. The Calyx may not do that well with the OR5, not because its USB input is that spectacular, but because from what I've heard its S/Pdif input is poorly implemented.
As to how any of these paired with an OR5 would do against something like a used Berkeley Alpha with a low priced converter like a MF V-link 192, I don't know. It's certainly an interesting question.
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So to make the most of the OR, one should use a DAC with I2S input?
I don't think so. Steve has said that DACs with BNC inputs that are actually have the proper 75Ohm impedance for S/Pdif perform very close to I2S. More ordinary coax and AES/EBU inputs aren't quite as good, but I don't think its a night/day thing.
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So a HiFace2 at $185 vs. an OR5 at $1299. Is the OR5 7x the gear (well, maybe by sheer physical dimensions and # of components in it) and improvement in sound or is it on the order of <2x? Also are the drivers for the HiFace2 compatible with the OR5?
When we talk about this being the best sound from a USB to SPDIF (and possibly I2S for PWDII owners) converter, what degree of improvement are we talking about? Budget will always factor in during any quest/pursuit of aural orgasm, unfortunately, so if the HiFace2 achieves about 25-50% of what the OR5 gains me, it might be worth looking into. If it's a micro improvement on "plain shit" USB direct to DAC, then there's no point obviously.
First of all, performance never scales with price on a linear scale in audio. With anything. It just doesn't happen. That being said, you're talking about one of the absolute lowest priced, bottom of the barrel converters with a massive amount of design compromise, vs. arguably THE best converter on the market, with very very little in terms of design compromise. The original M2Tech Hiface was basically a piece of shit. Massive output jitter and clock phase noise, and beyond that, the S/Pdif output was so far out of the design spec that some DACs had trouble even getting a lock. John Kenny recommended using attenuators on the output of his modified version for this reason, the stock output was a disaster.
The Hiface2 uses XMOS in place of M2Tech's own asynch technology which is a bit odd. That means that drivers aren't compatible with the OR. M2Tech has learned since the original HF1 - the EVO converter isn't especially great but it's not a pile of garbage like the HF1 was. Still, there's only so much you can cram into something the size and price of the HF2, even if you're dCS.
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So to make the most of the OR, one should use a DAC with I2S input?
I don't think so. Steve has said that DACs with BNC inputs that are actually have the proper 75Ohm impedance for S/Pdif perform very close to I2S. More ordinary coax and AES/EBU inputs aren't quite as good, but I don't think its a night/day thing.
Interesting, the X-Sabre has BNC.
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The North Star M192 is very old and uses a Cirrus D/A and receiver. I wouldn't recommend it these days (I did own one). The only "vintage" digital worth exploring would be PCM1704 or PCM63 and then modifying it.
Ironically the North Star was one of Steve Nugent's favorites for modding back in the day. I remember he partnered with an OB speaker company that would only sell their speakers with his modified North Star DAC.
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Which DAC are you using?
PWDII (upgrade from I) with 2.02 firmware.
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The Hiface2 uses XMOS in place of M2Tech's own asynch technology which is a bit odd. That means that drivers aren't compatible with the OR. M2Tech has learned since the original HF1 - the EVO converter isn't especially great but it's not a pile of garbage like the HF1 was. Still, there's only so much you can cram into something the size and price of the HF2, even if you're dCS.
Which is why I asked the question. It's pretty spartan looking (the HF2) and folks would look at this and ask themselves "Is there anything more than an IC worth 50 cents inside this thing?" and how it would even remotely improve anything fed through it. I might have been too polite in my inquiry but I looked at it as a $185 USB key-type thingy and wondered where the value proposition is.
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The more I am learning about DACs the more interested I am becoming. The technology is quite fascinating. So the inputs on most DACs are essentially USB/SPDIF to I2S convertors? So far I have only really focused on the USB input technology. Is there as much variation in SPDIF inputs as there are in USB? I have never really seen people comparing the quality of SPDIF inputs like they do with USB. The SPDIF seemed like a baseline to the DACs overall performance (i.e whatever you got through the SPDIF input was what the DAC was capable of). Now you have me thinking about a whole other set of variables.
As to how any of these paired with an OR5 would do against something like a used Berkeley Alpha with a low priced converter like a MF V-link 192, I don't know. It's certainly an interesting question.
So far I have been considering the OF5 to approx $1000 DAC but haven't thought of going with a less expensive convertor and something like the Berkeley Alpha as you mentioned. I don't think there are many people who have gone down either path (besides Purrin with the OF5 to Gugnir) so it is quite up in the air. I am somewhat more inclined to go with the first option because you could buy everything new and there is no other USB to SPDIF converter in the caliber of the OF5. If the OF5 is that good then there really isn't any trickle down technology that will come along to improve USB to SPDIF convertors like there inevitably will be from the higher end DAC's.
I know the logic is somewhat flawed, but the less likely new technology = less likely to need (want) to upgrade in the future aha. Based on what I have been reading around here, the Sabre chips still have a long way to go to unlock their full potential, making an increase in DAC technology seem more likely.
I am still not entirely convinced that the OF5 route will get me the performance of buying a $2000 DAC...I have a feeling I will try it anyway just to find out.
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So far I have only really focused on the USB input technology. Is there as much variation in SPDIF inputs as there are in USB? I have never really seen people comparing the quality of SPDIF inputs like they do with USB. The SPDIF seemed like a baseline to the DACs overall performance (i.e whatever you got through the SPDIF input was what the DAC was capable of). Now you have me thinking about a whole other set of variables.
As to how any of these paired with an OR5 would do against something like a used Berkeley Alpha with a low priced converter like a MF V-link 192, I don't know. It's certainly an interesting question.
So far I have been considering the OF5 to approx $1000 DAC but haven't thought of going with a less expensive convertor and something like the Berkeley Alpha as you mentioned. I don't think there are many people who have gone down either path (besides Purrin with the OF5 to Gugnir) so it is quite up in the air. I am somewhat more inclined to go with the first option because you could buy everything new and there is no other USB to SPDIF converter in the caliber of the OF5. If the OF5 is that good then there really isn't any trickle down technology that will come along to improve USB to SPDIF convertors like there inevitably will be from the higher end DAC's.
I know the logic is somewhat flawed, but the less likely new technology = less likely to need (want) to upgrade in the future aha. Based on what I have been reading around here, the Sabre chips still have a long way to go to unlock their full potential, making an increase in DAC technology seem more likely.
I am still not entirely convinced that the OF5 route will get me the performance of buying a $2000 DAC...I have a feeling I will try it anyway just to find out.
There is much less variation in S/Pdif inputs than USB inputs. S/Pdif is very mature, and there are only a few common digital receiver chips that handle it. I like to see a proper BNC input, but otherwise I don't pay that much attention to it. Compared to S/Pdif, USB is still in its infancy, and even some of the heavy hitters like EMM have proven that they don't get it yet.
It seems like Naim has taken the USB input on their new baby DAC very seriously, at least it ticks all of the right boxes. The other guys are at varying stages of performance, with most opting to just drop in an XMOS chip.
From what I've heard from Dusty at CIAudio, they are really trying to get the USB input right on their new flagship DAC, which is expected to cost around $2K. It will have separate transformers for analog/digital sections, balanced outs, and user selectable filters. He said no on the AMK4399 and AD1955, so I'm guessing either the PCM1792 or WM8741/2 will be used. No US, and he couldn't give me anything concrete on the output, could be either discrete or op-amp based. Should be one to watch out for though.
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I am happy to hear you say that SPDIF is fairly consistent. I don't think I could handle thinking about any more variables.
Last night I remembered that my CLAS -db can also function as a USB to Coax converter, however I have no idea how good it is at performing this function. Besides the OR5 being awesome and the Hiface2 being not so awesome, consensus seems the Stello/Concero/V-link/Audiophilleo are reasonably close to the same performance.
I am really tempted to try the Berkeley Alpha s1 if I can grab one off audiogon for 2k and use the CLAS coax output with it (if the CLAS is not too poo ). It is hard to get a real gauge on what any DAC will sound like with all the "mutual appreciation society" reviews, but especially with the higher end equipment. Any impressions of the Alpha 1 or comparisons to other DACs in that price range. Obviously the CLAS is not optimal for this purpose, but I would be willing to make some sacrifice and upgrade later if the Berkeley sounds like a good fit for what I want.
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I've had a fair number of DACs with transports/CD players and at least the sonic signature of the DAC was fairly consistent. Started with a CAL Alpha (still one of my favorite DACs which brought much enlightenment and opened my eyes & ears to what a decent DAC could do)/Delta combination. Classe CDP .5 replaced the Delta and obviously heard differences between analog outs and the Alpha, which still held its signature. Transport differences were still minimal between the two. Had a Wadia 830 CDP (with the optional IO boards installed) which replaced the Classe/Delta combination. Used an original Squeezebox through the Wadia's input and it was still essentially the same "Wadia" sound (smooth, non-fatiguing, dimensionality, musical sounding).
All this through SPDIF. Didn't know what was inside or cared from an engineering standpoint. Choices were made mostly by luck but these were the keepers in my old 2 channel rig (driving various combinations of SS and tube amps through a Merlin VSM-M for the most part). Wish I didn't get rid of the old rig but had to after the dot com bust period.
Hmmmm, anyone have a pair of Merlin VSM-M's to sell? ;)
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I am really tempted to try the Berkeley Alpha s1 if I can grab one off audiogon for 2k and use the CLAS coax output with it (if the CLAS is not too poo ). It is hard to get a real gauge on what any DAC will sound like with all the "mutual appreciation society" reviews, but especially with the higher end equipment. Any impressions of the Alpha 1 or comparisons to other DACs in that price range. Obviously the CLAS is not optimal for this purpose, but I would be willing to make some sacrifice and upgrade later if the Berkeley sounds like a good fit for what I want.
There are loads of Alpha DAC reviews, of course none will tell you how its gong to sound to you, but you should at least be able to get some idea of whether you'll like it or not. I'm not sure it was ever worth $5K, but for sub $2.5k, I think it makes a VERY strong case for itself.
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How do you guys feel about the Centrance stuff here? I've been thinking of looking for a used dacmini PX as a small all-in-one unit for dac/amp and speaker amp duties for my HE-6.
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Sorry if I've missed this, but any thoughts on the Chord QBD76 DAC?
http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/products-info.asp?id=74
I've also been eyeing the Berkley Alpha Series 2. I could get one in almost new condition at half the retail price.
Unless you want the Bluetooth streaming and the other stuff that the Chord does, for $6K (last I checked) I would be inclined to look elsewhere. A half priced Alpha DAC is a pretty good deal. It's not really SOTA anymore, but for under $3K I'm not sure you can beat it.
Dave (or anyone else), sorry to bump an old post however would you be able to elaborate more on how the QBD76 HDSD compares to other DACs such as the PWD Mk2 or Invicta? The reason for my question is because there's a used one in Japan for a reasonable price (still $5400 but cheaper than new at least).
I'm particularly interested in it from two perspectives :-
1) conceptual of FGPA vs traditional DACs
2) practically on SQ & actual listening experience
Thank you
Edit: although aesthetics would be nice, I don't wanna end up with the Bose of DACs either.
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Anyone know anything about this dangerous source DAC? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Source/
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Anyone know anything about this dangerous source DAC? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Source/
Fraid not. Gear Slutz is probably your best source for opinions on pro-level stuff like that. A lot of pro use DACs like the Forssells tend to be very analytical. The Burl is one of the few exceptions.
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Anyone know anything about this dangerous source DAC? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Source/
Fraid not. Gear Slutz is probably your best source for opinions on pro-level stuff like that. A lot of pro use DACs like the Forssells tend to be very analytical. The Burl is one of the few exceptions.
Ever get a chance to listen to the Burl?
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Nope, still haven't gotten around to it. Eventually I will.
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Hey guys I have another DAC question. Are OP amps in the output stage of a DAC undesirable? In my DAC research I have noticed that some people are opposed to the use of OP amps in favor of a discrete output stage. For example the Berkeley Alpha Dac uses an OP amp output stage and the PWD uses a discrete output stage. I am wondering how large of an effect (if any) this would have on performance? I figure that if the DAC sounds good then it shouldn't really matter much, but I am not sure of the more technical aspects of these differences. It seems to me there is a bit of a stigma surrounding OP amps in high end equipment.
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Oh my, that's a hornet's nest so this is probably the best place to discuss it as many of us tend to swing both ways in audio philosophy. From a basic standpoint, op amps garner both criticism and support for being cheap. As usual, proponents will say they measure as well as anything else or even better. Others will say their ears and experience tell them that the measurements are missing something.
Personally, I have never purchased anything based on one output stage philosophy over the other. I will say that it is interesting that my main rig uses discreet components in the CD transport, DAC and receiver. I had never realized it before and have heard some discrete stuff I favor less than chips so it depends. My portable rig is opamp based. I do think my headphone rig crushes my portable one, but whether this is because of opamps versus discrete is not something I could even come close to concluding. It'll be nice to have the e-whizes chime in with their two cents
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Hey guys I have another DAC question. Are OP amps in the output stage of a DAC undesirable? In my DAC research I have noticed that some people are opposed to the use of OP amps in favor of a discrete output stage. For example the Berkeley Alpha Dac uses an OP amp output stage and the PWD uses a discrete output stage. I am wondering how large of an effect (if any) this would have on performance? I figure that if the DAC sounds good then it shouldn't really matter much, but I am not sure of the more technical aspects of these differences. It seems to me there is a bit of a stigma surrounding OP amps in high end equipment.
The PS Audio Digital Link III used a FET based, fully discrete output stage. The Alpha uses op amps, and it will put the smack down HARD on the little PS. I think it's possible to get excellent results from both. A fully discrete Class A output stage definitely sounds better from a marketing standpoint, and most manufacturers that use it will tend to hype that up vs. others that may be more quiet about their use of op amps.
Theta DACs like the Gen VIII tend to use EXTREMELY high voltage outputs - 10+V rather than the much more common ~2V for SE and ~4V for balanced. In that particular case from what I understand there's a definite advantage to a discrete output stage as getting very high voltage or very high current is problematic. In normal cases though I think the design of the DAC as a whole is much more important than just op amp or discrete - again see DLIII vs. Alpha.
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Well, citing that the Alpha sounds better than the DLink doesn't get to the question of ideal output stage. Plenty of opamp based stuff sounds worse as well. The question is whether the Alpha would sound better with a discrete output or not and what the electrical reasons might be for this or not.
Overall design is most important in everything but it doesn't address the question at hand.
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I apologize if I have opened a can of worms. Well only sort of, because I wanted to hear some opinions on this...
Like DaveBSC said, discrete output stage does sound better from a marketing perspective. My thinking is that this question really does come down to a design philosophy, much like the no caps in the signal path thing. For myself I have a tendency to prefer keeping things as simple as possible.
I hate trying to compare a design issue like "would the Alpha sound better with a discrete output" because I am sure that there are many technical reasons why it was designed in that way (that are far beyond my knowledge) and it would not be as simple as changing the output stage. I am just wondering if this is a variable that I should be concerned about and from a not crazy technical consumer perspective if there were any reasons for the difference in design.
I read that the Alpha has a built in preamp that can't be bypassed. Would the opamp output have something to do with the preamp or is it a completely different design? Truthfully I dislike the idea of the built in preamp much more than the opamp output stage, regardless of how well it is implemented. I don't think a preamp is necessary for headphone listening and I would rather not pay extra for something that I do not need.
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I'll wade in here. Hopefully not too controversially.
First point: For DACs that use current output, I would never use anything *but* a discrete stage.
Why? Op-amps don't have the proper low-impedance input. A current-output DAC wants to see a dead short. Op-amps are designed for high input impedance. Sure, you can lower the input impedance with 120db of feedback, but that's like putting an 8000 horsepower engine in a dump truck to try to race in Formula 1.
A better solution is a discrete stage with the DAC's current output driving either multiple paralleled BJT emitters or JFET/MOSFET sources, with feedback to bring the already low input impedance down even farther.
I did this at Theta, when Mike was using AD797 op-amps. He bet me I couldn't do a discrete stage with better performance than the AD797. I did a true current-input discrete stage of the type described above, and it not only sounded better, but it measured better, all the way around. Even at the summing junction, the error was 20x less than the op-amp with loads of feedback. This became the Gen V output stage--the first discrete Theta stage.
Second point: For voltage-output DACs, there are still technical reasons for discrete stages.
First, the discrete stage allows you to create a better topology for summing differential voltage outputs than the less-than-ideal op-amp summer, or it allows you to use a topology like supersymmetry or circlotron to retain the differential outputs (I'd rather sum them and have a DAC per phase on a balanced design, but the flexibility is appealing.) Second, it lets you actually tailor the stage's internal compensation to the out-of-band needs of the DAC you're using, which can give you better out-of-band performance. Third, it allows you to use local feedback to help deal with out-of-band noise.
And, as already mentioned, discrete gives you the opportunity for more headroom, if you need it for high-output designs, or if you simply want it. Hell, Theta and Sumo both used +/- 35V rails in their preamps, Asgard 2 has an 80V rail, Mjolnir has a 95V rail, Gungnir has +/-24V.
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Well, citing that the Alpha sounds better than the DLink doesn't get to the question of ideal output stage. Plenty of opamp based stuff sounds worse as well. The question is whether the Alpha would sound better with a discrete output or not and what the electrical reasons might be for this or not.
Overall design is most important in everything but it doesn't address the question at hand.
True, I guess the point I was trying to make is that discrete > opamp therefore discrete DAC > opamp DAC is not a true statement. Supposedly the Berkeley guys were able to get the "sound they wanted" without having to use a discrete stage. Would the Alpha sound better with a discrete output? I don't know. Certainly the opamp market is different now then when the Gen V was built. (One of my favorite DACs of the time, btw. I had a Gen Va).
I've said before that I don't think the Alpha was ever worth $5K. As a $2-2.5K DAC though I think it has a lot going for it vs. new DACs that sell for that amount, but admittedly I haven't heard it against the new Bryston, a "discrete opamp" design.
As for the preamp, there are a lot of ways to do that in a DAC. With a digital volume or a so called "hybrid" volume, setting it to 100% should effectively remove it. I'm pretty sure that digital or hybrid VC DACs that have a "fixed/variable" switch are just disabling the control buttons and not making any actual changes to the circuit, though I could be wrong.
The Alpha doesn't have a pot or a stepper for volume that would actually lower the performance in any way vs. taking that out of the circuit.
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I'll wade in here. Hopefully not too controversially.
I appreciate the input schiit. It is interesting to hear what a DAC designer has to say on the subject. I have to admit pretty much everything you said is way over my head. From what I was able to glean from your post, there are definite design advantages to the discrete output. It sounds like it is easier (possibly cheaper?) to just throw an opamp into the output stage of the DAC and be done with it. I wonder if there are any technical advantages to an opamp design?
I briefly tried to look at current output vs voltage output DACs. I assume that these are the two main types of designs. Are both designs used in production DACs or is one more common than the other?
Like DaveBSC alluded to, there are obviously opamp DACs that are better than DACs that use a discrete output stage. Is it possible to implement both an opamp or discrete output stage on any DAC? I am interested in what would happen if you took the exact same DAC but changed the output stage.
BTW, you could make my decision extremely easy if you told me that the Schiit statement DAC would be out within the next 6 months aha.
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It will be out within 6 months if latest news is still on track. Last mention was July/August +/-.
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I heard Schiit is creating a new Hirez format, LTL, in conjunction with Dolby. There will be at least two recordings in the format and the Schiit DAC will be the only one with the algorithm for decoding it and converting to PCM.
MSB will probably release an upgraded version of their newest DAC to decode LTL, but it will add 10K onto the cost of the DAC. On the other hand, the upgraded Diamond will be called "Wurtzite Boron Nitride."
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I heard Schiit is creating a new Hirez format, LTL, in conjunction with Dolby. There will be at least two recordings in the format and the Schiit DAC will be the only one with the algorithm for decoding it and converting to PCM.
MSB will probably release an upgraded version of their newest DAC to decode LTL, but it will add 10K onto the cost of the DAC. On the other hand, the upgraded Diamond will be called "Wurtzite Boron Nitride."
Makes about as much sense as DSD!
Of course, if we did it, our format would probably be called BNN, or Bits Not Noise, or RFB, for Real Fuckin Bits, but it would require stuff like 2000-lb, lead-shielded, temperature-controlled hand-trimmed, close-to-24-real-bits-as-possible PCM A/D and a similar D/A. No noise-shaping mathematical monstrosities, out of band noise peaks that look like Half Dome, no "successive approximation" real-sample-destroying designs, no guesswork, just real bits.
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Lots of hyping going on over the new HRT Music Streamer HD by the audio mags. Too bad HRT can't be bothered to come up with a driver so it is mostly stuck in Class 1 and limited to 24/96. Reviewers are conveniently leaving that part out. Seems to have some trouble maintaining a lock as well. Other than that it's great. :spank:
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I heard Schiit is creating a new Hirez format, LTL, in conjunction with Dolby. There will be at least two recordings in the format and the Schiit DAC will be the only one with the algorithm for decoding it and converting to PCM.
MSB will probably release an upgraded version of their newest DAC to decode LTL, but it will add 10K onto the cost of the DAC. On the other hand, the upgraded Diamond will be called "Wurtzite Boron Nitride."
Makes about as much sense as DSD!
Of course, if we did it, our format would probably be called BNN, or Bits Not Noise, or RFB, for Real Fuckin Bits, but it would require stuff like 2000-lb, lead-shielded, temperature-controlled hand-trimmed, close-to-24-real-bits-as-possible PCM A/D and a similar D/A. No noise-shaping mathematical monstrosities, out of band noise peaks that look like Half Dome, no "successive approximation" real-sample-destroying designs, no guesswork, just real bits.
Glad to see you guys are taking this seriously. I guess I was misinformed, I was told the format you were developing was LTL, or "Losslessier Than Lossless" where you inject extra data in the ultrasonic regions that, when played backwards, cause bats, dogs, and dolphins to worship satan.
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I heard Schiit is creating a new Hirez format, LTL, in conjunction with Dolby. There will be at least two recordings in the format and the Schiit DAC will be the only one with the algorithm for decoding it and converting to PCM.
MSB will probably release an upgraded version of their newest DAC to decode LTL, but it will add 10K onto the cost of the DAC. On the other hand, the upgraded Diamond will be called "Wurtzite Boron Nitride."
Makes about as much sense as DSD!
Of course, if we did it, our format would probably be called BNN, or Bits Not Noise, or RFB, for Real Fuckin Bits, but it would require stuff like 2000-lb, lead-shielded, temperature-controlled hand-trimmed, close-to-24-real-bits-as-possible PCM A/D and a similar D/A. No noise-shaping mathematical monstrosities, out of band noise peaks that look like Half Dome, no "successive approximation" real-sample-destroying designs, no guesswork, just real bits.
Glad to see you guys are taking this seriously. I guess I was misinformed, I was told the format you were developing was LTL, or "Losslessier Than Lossless" where you inject extra data in the ultrasonic regions that, when played backwards, cause bats, dogs, and dolphins to worship satan.
That's crazy talk. You might invoke the elder gods! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
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That's crazy talk. You might invoke the elder gods! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7m2pUhjmis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7m2pUhjmis)
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I'll wade in here. Hopefully not too controversially.
First point: For DACs that use current output, I would never use anything *but* a discrete stage.
Why? Op-amps don't have the proper low-impedance input. A current-output DAC wants to see a dead short. Op-amps are designed for high input impedance. Sure, you can lower the input impedance with 120db of feedback, but that's like putting an 8000 horsepower engine in a dump truck to try to race in Formula 1.
A better solution is a discrete stage with the DAC's current output driving either multiple paralleled BJT emitters or JFET/MOSFET sources, with feedback to bring the already low input impedance down even farther.
I did this at Theta, when Mike was using AD797 op-amps. He bet me I couldn't do a discrete stage with better performance than the AD797. I did a true current-input discrete stage of the type described above, and it not only sounded better, but it measured better, all the way around. Even at the summing junction, the error was 20x less than the op-amp with loads of feedback. This became the Gen V output stage--the first discrete Theta stage.
Second point: For voltage-output DACs, there are still technical reasons for discrete stages.
First, the discrete stage allows you to create a better topology for summing differential voltage outputs than the less-than-ideal op-amp summer, or it allows you to use a topology like supersymmetry or circlotron to retain the differential outputs (I'd rather sum them and have a DAC per phase on a balanced design, but the flexibility is appealing.) Second, it lets you actually tailor the stage's internal compensation to the out-of-band needs of the DAC you're using, which can give you better out-of-band performance. Third, it allows you to use local feedback to help deal with out-of-band noise.
And, as already mentioned, discrete gives you the opportunity for more headroom, if you need it for high-output designs, or if you simply want it. Hell, Theta and Sumo both used +/- 35V rails in their preamps, Asgard 2 has an 80V rail, Mjolnir has a 95V rail, Gungnir has +/-24V.
Curious, did you guys ever mess around with discrete I/V for the PCM1704?
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I had asked earlier but didn't get much of a response. How do you guys feel about Centrance gear? I've been kinda eyeing the Dacmini PX.
The smattering of notes I've found searching through the forum says: good dacs, ok amps, kinda pricey.
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I've thought about building a PCM1704 based DAC but them chips are too friggin expensive for my liking. Also I constantly fail to see the advantage compared to old PCM63 that can be had for much less. More than once have I heard people reporting the PCM63 to be sonically superior and I really like the pair I have in my Para-1600.
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Curious, did you guys ever mess around with discrete I/V for the PCM1704?
Yep. Never sounded as good as the PCM63, though. There's something funky with the PCM1704. And it's still better than all of the delta-sigma DACs out there. In our opinion, of course.
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I've thought about building a PCM1704 based DAC but them chips are too friggin expensive for my liking. Also I constantly fail to see the advantage compared to old PCM63 that can be had for much less. More than once have I heard people reporting the PCM63 to be sonically superior and I really like the pair I have in my Para-1600.
LOL, great minds...or foolish consistency?
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LOL, great minds...or foolish consistency?
Now, that's what I call balanced input!
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Anyways- I've read about a pair of PCM1704 samples from a 200+ sample test batch having 19ENOB's, others had 18. PCM63 consistently scored 19 together with AD1862 and PCM1702 (surprise, surprise). The only ones that could get to 20 were select samples from PCM63 and AD1862 batches. I have no idea about the internal architecture of the 1702/04 but from what I've read they most likely are hybrid designs that have r2r's and DS working together somehow. Also the 1704 seems like a 24bit friendly version of the 02 that doesn't really chew the last 4bits.
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I had asked earlier but didn't get much of a response. How do you guys feel about Centrance gear? I've been kinda eyeing the Dacmini PX.
The smattering of notes I've found searching through the forum says: good dacs, ok amps, kinda pricey.
Thought I responded to that somewhere. I think Michael does a good job w/ DACs, best to see if you can find a special or deal on CEntrance gear. I do not adhere to his basic amp philosophy of SPL/distortion/linearity = done. With easier to drive stuff it's fine, but the DACPort, hifiM8, DACMini samples I sampled and/or lived with are nothing I'd plug an HD800 into. DACPort LX I would use to replace my ODAC in a heartbeat though. My favorite CEntrance product to date, regret selling it.
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I've thought about building a PCM1704 based DAC but them chips are too friggin expensive for my liking. Also I constantly fail to see the advantage compared to old PCM63 that can be had for much less. More than once have I heard people reporting the PCM63 to be sonically superior and I really like the pair I have in my Para-1600.
I've always been curious about what a more modern interpretation of the PCM63P-K could sound like. I had an EAD DSP-7000 MKIII which was a dual 63 DAC, but even with EAD's "digital flywheel" tech, the performance was really limited by the shitty CS8412 receiver and other limitations of the day. Jitter rejection was not good. With something like a DIR9001 handling the digital inputs and some modern TOTL clocks and a good output stage, it could make for an interesting DAC. Somebody should do that.
A modern Ultra Analog based DAC would be even more interesting, but the D20400 may be as difficult to get as something like a TDA1541 double crown. I don't know.
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AFAIK there aren't D20400a fakes (just not popular with DIY'ers). They can be had, but they're expensive.
TDA1541 dc... tons of fakes out there.
I would love to hear PCM63 with a good discrete I/V. Those old Parasound DACs are ok, but really fall short in resolution.
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Is that the PCM63's fault or the analog stage?
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Is that the PCM63's fault or the analog stage?
Combination of the digital receiver, filter, clocks, output stage etc. Those DACs are well over 15 years old. While it's possibly to modify the output stages, you can't really do a complete overhaul. I would trust Schiit that the D/A converter chip itself is probably fantastic.
My experience is contrary to Schiit's the best vintage ladder DAC I've heard was PCM1704 based, but had opamp I/V. It's supposed to be very difficult to do a discrete I/V for 1704, but even an average one should be better than passive.
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It's not that the D20400 wasn't popular, if I'm not mistaken these modules were sold only directly to manufacturers, hence most of them have an inscription on the case. And from what I've heard most of the fame comes from the nigh unicorn status. Surely- good results can be had from good implementations of the said module but same or better can be had with PCM63/AD1862/... chips.
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All you damn "tone" guys. Give me plankton!
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All you damn "tone" guys. Give me plankton!
If only there is a way to combine the Buffalo's "planktons" with these old R-2R DACs' "tone" and midrange presentation I think that will be one hell of a killer DAC.
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Darn delta-sigma whales...
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With an amp I'd take tone over plankton, with a DAC plankton over tone. I just don't want the source to bottleneck the detail I get with anything I plug it into.
DS Resolution and R2R Tone is what everyone's trying to do right now. First DAC that gets it really right will make a fortune. Haven't heard one like that yet.
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Well, in any case I do need both tone and detail. As long as the end result doesn't bug me too much.
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I had asked earlier but didn't get much of a response. How do you guys feel about Centrance gear? I've been kinda eyeing the Dacmini PX.
The smattering of notes I've found searching through the forum says: good dacs, ok amps, kinda pricey.
Thought I responded to that somewhere. I think Michael does a good job w/ DACs, best to see if you can find a special or deal on CEntrance gear. I do not adhere to his basic amp philosophy of SPL/distortion/linearity = done. With easier to drive stuff it's fine, but the DACPort, hifiM8, DACMini samples I sampled and/or lived with are nothing I'd plug an HD800 into. DACPort LX I would use to replace my ODAC in a heartbeat though. My favorite CEntrance product to date, regret selling it.
You know, I'm pretty sure you did write that somewhere on the forums, though it wasn't in response to me specifically. Thanks though.
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With an amp I'd take tone over plankton, with a DAC plankton over tone. I just don't want the source to bottleneck the detail I get with anything I plug it into.
DS Resolution and R2R Tone is what everyone's trying to do right now. First DAC that gets it really right will make a fortune. Haven't heard one like that yet.
Sounds like the Headfi way, matin' a bright phone with a dull amp or vice versa :& (only joking)
As much as it pains me to say it (thinking my custom ES9018 DAC would be the one) I really think MSB nailed both with the DACIV (as well as subtle dynamics, which D-S tends to blunt). Though the gap is much smaller on multi tracked recordings.
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It's not that the D20400 wasn't popular, if I'm not mistaken these modules were sold only directly to manufacturers, hence most of them have an inscription on the case. And from what I've heard most of the fame comes from the nigh unicorn status. Surely- good results can be had from good implementations of the said module but same or better can be had with PCM63/AD1862/... chips.
The Spectral was magic, though. The best UA DAC I've ever heard, and one of the absolute best "vintage" DACs full stop. Only a select few others like the Levinson 30.5 (modified UA) Sonic Frontiers DACs were in that league, though admittedly I don't think I ever managed to hear the megabuck Wadia and Meitner DACs from that period.
Parasound at least thought enough of the UA chips to use them in their DAC-2000 Ultra as compared to the PCM63s in their "lesser" DACs.
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It's not that the D20400 wasn't popular, if I'm not mistaken these modules were sold only directly to manufacturers, hence most of them have an inscription on the case. And from what I've heard most of the fame comes from the nigh unicorn status. Surely- good results can be had from good implementations of the said module but same or better can be had with PCM63/AD1862/... chips.
The Spectral was magic, though. The best UA DAC I've ever heard, and one of the absolute best "vintage" DACs full stop. Only a select few others like the Levinson 30.5 (modified UA) Sonic Frontiers DACs were in that league, though admittedly I don't think I ever managed to hear the megabuck Wadia and Meitner DACs from that period.
Parasound at least thought enough of the UA chips to use them in their DAC-2000 Ultra as compared to the PCM63s in their "lesser" DACs.
Is the SF DAC you refer to the Processor 3? That is one I've always wanted to hear.
I have a friend that owns 2 Spectral SDR-2000. Not very reliable and Spectral charge you a small fortune to repair it. Output stage runs very hot... melted the gel feet on one of them.
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Yep. The Processor 3 cost about the same as the regular Levinson 35 and was a definite step ahead. (It was also a dual UA D20400-A DAC). I'm pretty sure that the I/V conversion and the 6922 based output was all discrete. Jitter was still an issue though as it was with my EAD and all of these old DACs.
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I've never heard the Processor 3 but have heard the SFD-2 and if I remember correctly, it also used the UltraAnalog DAC chips as well. It sounded HUGE in a 2-ch system when I heard this about 10 yrs ago. HUGE! Everything else I heard at the time (in the same system) was several notches down by comparison, excluding the Levinson DAC (don't remember if it was a 35 or a 30.5 but it had an outboard PS). A high-end Theta DAC wasn't even close...
DaveBSC is just digging up old memories of my audiophile youth through the cobwebs. It goes to show you that Redbook CD still has unearthed potential that we haven't fully exploited. Now it's all about high resolution digital, DSD, etc.
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I've never heard the Processor 3 but have heard the SFD-2 and if I remember correctly, it also used the UltraAnalog DAC chips as well. It sounded HUGE in a 2-ch system when I heard this about 10 yrs ago. HUGE! Everything else I heard at the time (in the same system) was several notches down by comparison, excluding the Levinson DAC (don't remember if it was a 35 or a 30.5 but it had an outboard PS). A high-end Theta DAC wasn't even close...
DaveBSC is just digging up old memories of my audiophile youth through the cobwebs. It goes to show you that Redbook CD still has unearthed potential that we haven't fully exploited. Now it's all about high resolution digital, DSD, etc.
The 35 was a single box design that looked basically the same as the 36 and 360 that followed. The two chassis versions were the No.30 series. Which still hold their value incredibly well, particularly the last 30.6. By the time it was released at the end of the '90s UA had been bought out by Wadia, and 24-bit DACs were available so they dropped the D20400A for a 24-bit R2R design supposedly done in house at Madrigal. I don't know if this means some sort of modified PCM1704 or if they actually made them from the ground up, but the 30.6 is considered the best of them all. I miss the days when ML made some of the absolute best components in the business. Thanks a lot Harman.
(http://cfs15.tistory.com/image/29/tistory/2008/11/28/14/58/492f88789757c)
(http://www.audiounion.jp/stock_images/75054.jpg)
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Has anyone heard any of the Blue Circle Audio DACs? Not too many reviews on them, but the ones I have read scare me a little with all the talk about tone and musicality vs detail. Not a lot of specs on them but they appear to be a R2R design (which doesn't mean a lot to me aha), so would that fall into the tone as opposed to detail category from above?
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All you damn "tone" guys. Give me plankton!
semantics blah blah...but give me "timbre".
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back to cheap DACs... Anyone here try an HRT microstreamer? I wonder if Michael Mercer's review is consistent with what everyone else thinks about the little dac.
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back to cheap DACs... Anyone here try an HRT microstreamer? I wonder if Michael Mercer's review is consistent with what everyone else thinks about the little dac.
Can you link a negative Michael Mercer review?
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back to cheap DACs... Anyone here try an HRT microstreamer? I wonder if Michael Mercer's review is consistent with what everyone else thinks about the little dac.
Can you link a negative Michael Mercer review?
Aside from him saying the DACport is surpassed and outdated? No.
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back to cheap DACs... Anyone here try an HRT microstreamer? I wonder if Michael Mercer's review is consistent with what everyone else thinks about the little dac.
Can you link a negative Michael Mercer review?
It could be that he only reviews things that he likes. Anyways, I was just curious about the little gadget. If it is even at least as good as the modi plus the fact that it comes with a headphone jack that supposedly sounds good as well as a separate lineout... It would be a must buy for laptops :)p1
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back to cheap DACs... Anyone here try an HRT microstreamer? I wonder if Michael Mercer's review is consistent with what everyone else thinks about the little dac.
Can you link a negative Michael Mercer review?
Aside from him saying the DACport is surpassed and outdated? No.
Oh yeah, the company that no longer employs him. How convenient. ::) That said, I'd love to hear this iFi thing.
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Can't remember how you guys found the Concerto but I think that would be the DAC to pit it against. The iFi usb and D/DC are interesting stuff though, combining power and jitter solutions with pretty lofty claims too.
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Can't remember how you guys found the Concerto but I think that would be the DAC to pit it against. The iFi usb and D/DC are interesting stuff though, combining power and jitter solutions with pretty lofty claims too.
I use the iFi USB power supply with my Concero. Small but noticeable improvement, mostly in noise floor and image stability (both of which were pretty stinkin' good out of the box). I'd say the iFi is "nice to have," not "must have."
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I would think that it would be less effective than the Adnaco or the SoTM USB cards, after all its basically just a better designed AQVOX.
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Haven't read the past... many pages... I'm sure some of you purists would disagree with what I'm doing, but... any good USB bus powered DACs around? Got the Audinst HUD-MX2, sat there for nearly a month, finally opened it and listened to it for a bit with my DT250, fairly good sound actually, but wondering if I'm missing out on some super duper USB bus powered DACs?
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Well the only super duper USB bus powered DAC that I know of is the Resonessence Concero. I haven't come across any others that are superer or duperor than the Concero, although apparently Resonessence is coming out with a Concero HD that is using the 9018 Sabre chip. It's not clear whether the new Concero HD will be USB bus powered. I read that the new models would be coming out in May.
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Haven't read the past... many pages... I'm sure some of you purists would disagree with what I'm doing, but... any good USB bus powered DACs around? Got the Audinst HUD-MX2, sat there for nearly a month, finally opened it and listened to it for a bit with my DT250, fairly good sound actually, but wondering if I'm missing out on some super duper USB bus powered DACs?
The Calyx DAC can switch between bus and wall-wart power. The Wavelength Proton is mostly battery powered, but charges via USB when not in use, there's nothing to plug in. There's also the Bladelius DAC and the Lindemann DAC which I *think* can run on bus power but I'm not positive. There's also the HRT Streamer HD, which can only be used as Class 1: 24/96 in Windows because HRT used something other than XMOS and then couldn't be bothered to actually create a driver for Class 2 operation in Windows. Really stupid on their part.
One of the most capable bus powered DACs is the CIAudio Transient MKII. You get a DAC with a built in volume control that can also double as a S/Pdif converter with both DIN and PS Audio type HDMI I2S outputs.
And of course the Concero.
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Any reviews or impressions between the Transient mk2 and OR5?
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Any reviews or impressions between the Transient mk2 and OR5?
Not that I'm aware of, no. The most direct comparison would be the Transient with the optional VDC-5 MKII LPS vs. the stock OR5. With the LPS attached the Transient uses absolutely no bus power for anything, similar to the OR. The CIAudio package is $1029 vs. $1300 for the OR5. Would be an interesting shootout. Fully loaded in $2250 guise, I would have to assume that the OR5 would take it.
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Is the CI audio Transient the new DAC that you mentioned with the focus on USB implementation or is that still forthcoming?
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No, that's a still unnamed DAC that Dusty is currently cooking up. It will be priced around where the Bryston BDA-2 is and will have similar features. Though the DACs wont be AKM and the output stage is still a question mark. He is taking the USB input very seriously though, it will be isolated with its own power supply for the receiver.
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I hope this is the right thread- certainly the right people to ask:
Any thoughts on MF V-Link 192 vs. Peachtree X1? Both galvanically isolated. Both $200. Anything else at this price with dual S/PDIF (or AES/EBU) out?
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Well the only super duper USB bus powered DAC that I know of is the Resonessence Concero. I haven't come across any others that are superer or duperor than the Concero, although apparently Resonessence is coming out with a Concero HD that is using the 9018 Sabre chip. It's not clear whether the new Concero HD will be USB bus powered. I read that the new models would be coming out in May.
Just a little correction, unless it has changed since I have kept up with it... The new Concero uses the 9016.
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Well the only super duper USB bus powered DAC that I know of is the Resonessence Concero. I haven't come across any others that are superer or duperor than the Concero, although apparently Resonessence is coming out with a Concero HD that is using the 9018 Sabre chip. It's not clear whether the new Concero HD will be USB bus powered. I read that the new models would be coming out in May.
Just a little correction, unless it has changed since I have kept up with it... The new Concero uses the 9016.
Ahh yep you are right. It is the new Invicta that is supposed to use the 9018.
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The old Invicta also used a 9018 for the DAC section and a separate 9016 for the headphone section. The Invicta 2 will use 9018's for both, and the Invicta Mirus will use dual 9018's in the DAC section for and Octal-mono or whatever they want to call it.
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The Calyx DAC can switch between bus and wall-wart power. The Wavelength Proton is mostly battery powered, but charges via USB when not in use, there's nothing to plug in. There's also the Bladelius DAC and the Lindemann DAC which I *think* can run on bus power but I'm not positive. There's also the HRT Streamer HD, which can only be used as Class 1: 24/96 in Windows because HRT used something other than XMOS and then couldn't be bothered to actually create a driver for Class 2 operation in Windows. Really stupid on their part.
One of the most capable bus powered DACs is the CIAudio Transient MKII. You get a DAC with a built in volume control that can also double as a S/Pdif converter with both DIN and PS Audio type HDMI I2S outputs.
And of course the Concero.
Thanks Dave, you respond the most in this thread and I'm a freaking noob so I trust you, mang. Now let me have a look at these DACs. :)p1
Well the only super duper USB bus powered DAC that I know of is the Resonessence Concero. I haven't come across any others that are superer or duperor than the Concero, although apparently Resonessence is coming out with a Concero HD that is using the 9018 Sabre chip. It's not clear whether the new Concero HD will be USB bus powered. I read that the new models would be coming out in May.
Trust you too, mang.
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So does it make me a chump when I go down the Parasound ZDac route? The oversized toroid and no need for a driver is what sealed the deal walk the plank2
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So does it make me a chump when I go down the Parasound ZDac route? The oversized toroid and no need for a driver is what sealed the deal walk the plank2
How do you like it? It's got a pretty complete feature-set at the price point, worth attention for that if it sounds good.
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Will have to get back to you on that still awaiting
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So does it make me a chump when I go down the Parasound ZDac route? The oversized toroid and no need for a driver is what sealed the deal walk the plank2
I can't say I'm the biggest fan of the AD1895 ASRC or asynchronous upsampling in general. There's no need for a driver because there's no 24/176 or 192 support, and the input isn't asynchronous either. Using the TAS1020B in adaptive mode is a bit lazy at this point if I'm being honest. The price isn't too bad, but the tech inside is pretty outdated.
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TBH I was very confused about some of these reviews claiming it is asynchronous USB input vs the one that states it is adaptive, some clarification would probably help!
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/parasound-zdac
Vs
http://www.audiostream.com/content/parasound-zdac
I fully expect to compare with the Stello and HiFace 1 I have setup. If it's not as good I ordered it from Audioadvisor so I could always send it back and maybe go for a Gungnir or something else. I would love to go m51 but would have to move along the lcd-3...
I did not like the NuWave DAC prior and felt the Stello did better.
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What I see is talk about custom designed firmware - not that it's operating in asynchronous mode. Parasound also makes no claim that the input is asynchronous, so I'm not sure where Grandberg is getting that. The AKM digital receiver I'm not familiar with, so I don't know how that compares to the more common WM8805. The ASRC though I know, and I don't like. The choice to go with the AD1853 DAC is also an odd one, it's not as if the superior AD1955 is that expensive. Matrix used two of them in the ~$350 Mini-i.
The Bifrost would be the prime challenger at around the $500 level, particularly with the new USB input board and the "uber" output stage option. The Bifrost's CS8416 receiver is a bit crap and likely worse than the Parasound's AKM receiver, but the USB performance should be a major step up.
You might also want to give John Kenny's latest Ciunas DAC a try. The old JKDAC32 was no slouch, and the new version is supposed to be a significant improvement (though of course if you need conventional digital inputs in addition to USB, it's a no go).
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Just announced on the website....
http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/904731
Upgraded USB, DSD and a 2 level upgrade program for existing owners....
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The Bifrost's CS8416 receiver is a bit crap and likely worse than the Parasound's AKM receiver, but the USB performance should be a major step up.
Don't know but is the receiver modular as well?
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Just announced on the website....
http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/904731
Upgraded USB, DSD and a 2 level upgrade program for existing owners....
"Another bonus of the special edition DAC-2 is the galvanically isolated I²S USB interface which guarantees zero opportunity for computer noise to interfere with the quality of the audio signal."
Not true. It's certainly better than nothing (EMM) but there's still plenty of opportunity for computer noise to get in, particularly if the USB receiver is still bus powered which is unclear. The new resistors and regulators are nice, (and of course the "audiophile grade" fuse) but $1,000 more expensive? Really? For that?
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Just announced on the website....
http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/904731
Upgraded USB, DSD and a 2 level upgrade program for existing owners....
"Another bonus of the special edition DAC-2 is the galvanically isolated I²S USB interface which guarantees zero opportunity for computer noise to interfere with the quality of the audio signal."
Not true. It's certainly better than nothing (EMM) but there's still plenty of opportunity for computer noise to get in, particularly if the USB receiver is still bus powered which is unclear. The new resistors and regulators are nice, (and of course the "audiophile grade" fuse) but $1,000 more expensive? Really? For that?
So Dave,
Current favorite $2500 or under Dac? PS PW off Audiogon?
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Make sure to only do a mk1 upgraded to mk2. What's your priority for listening?
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Make sure to only do a mk1 upgraded to mk2. What's your priority for listening?
I have been reading about that Mike....Genres: Rock, jazz vocals and guitar work. I like my HD800's stock with tubes so take that as a guide. I am not at all unhappy with my W4S DAC-2 now. I have it connected vis Toslink and USB atm....
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So Dave,
Current favorite $2500 or under Dac? PS PW off Audiogon?
Until I'm able to hear the new Bryston and the upcoming CIAudio DACs, I would say the Berkeley Alpha S1, which is regularly available in the low $2K range. Honestly I was never a big fan of the W4S DAC.
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Purrin should comment on the Berkeley for comparison. I know he decided against it in favor of the PWD mk1 at the time.
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Purrin should comment on the Berkeley for comparison. I know he decided against it in favor of the PWD mk1 at the time.
Interesting, I didn't find the original MK1 PWD to be especially impressive.
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So Dave,
Current favorite $2500 or under Dac? PS PW off Audiogon?
Until I'm able to hear the new Bryston and the upcoming CIAudio DACs, I would say the Berkeley Alpha S1, which is regularly available in the low $2K range. Honestly I was never a big fan of the W4S DAC.
Is that the BDA-2? It looks interesting. What did you think of the BDA-1?
I have to say when I heard that W4S was upgrading the DAC 2 I thought it would be taking over from the existing model. The thousand dollar increase seems a bit crazy for what are essentially upgrades to an outdated model.
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The BDA-1 was OK, not incredible. Some of that may have been the use of two CS4398s which are hardly my favorites. Jitter rejection also wasn't great, and as far as I can tell that seems to still be the case with the new version as well.
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Three things I noted from Munich - one is an upgrade to the devialet line, with the cheapest option at an actually sane price point. The second is the 202 has been upgraded to 202UDSD, and apparently there were other internal changes keeping it competitive with the newest advances in USB - the third is Nagra's new DAC, proto only at the show, but they had Andreas Koch do the DSD modules on the digital side of things and then built on that.
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So Dave,
Current favorite $2500 or under Dac? PS PW off Audiogon?
Until I'm able to hear the new Bryston and the upcoming CIAudio DACs, I would say the Berkeley Alpha S1, which is regularly available in the low $2K range. Honestly I was never a big fan of the W4S DAC.
I guess I am trying to understand what people are liking or not liking about various USB implementations. I do not have an unlimited opportunity to experiment with all of the most highly regarded gear to experience 1st person what the advantages or shortfalls there are.
Exactly what is it about the W4S USB that is its Achilles heel? Perhaps if it is something I could have pointed out and hear I would "Get" what the deal is. Right now I am not perceiving the problem. ATM, my current setup is the best I have ever heard. Since this is a journey, I feel like I am at a fork in the HP road and am not sure how to proceed. p:8
Current rig is:
MBPro>Amarra>Lossless (AIFF, WAV or FLAC>AIFF)>USB or Toslink>W4S DAC-2>Decware CSP2+ as Pre-Amp>Decware Taboo MK III as amp>HD800's....
Dang hobby :spank:
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I guess I am trying to understand what people are liking or not liking about various USB implementations. I do not have an unlimited opportunity to experiment with all of the most highly regarded gear to experience 1st person what the advantages or shortfalls there are.
Exactly what is it about the W4S USB that is its Achilles heel? Perhaps if it is something I could have pointed out and hear I would "Get" what the deal is. Right now I am not perceiving the problem. ATM, my current setup is the best I have ever heard. Since this is a journey, I feel like I am at a fork in the HP road and am not sure how to proceed.
Current rig is:
MBPro>Amarra>Lossless (AIFF, WAV or FLAC>AIFF)>USB or Toslink>W4S DAC-2>Decware CSP2+ as Pre-Amp>Decware Taboo MK III as amp>HD800's....
As I bought my first outboard DAC only about six months ago, I'm also trying to sort much of this out. I started by picking up a used non-USB Bifrost just to get the optical hookup for my TV for the occasion when I want to listen through my stereo for watching streamed movies or the like. I then bought a HRT Music Streamer II to use at work, but I didn't particularly care, it's just to use for MOG since I haven't brought a hard drive with any tunes up there. I then bought the Magni/Modi combo to use in my bedroom setup with my desktop. That's about the first time I started using full rips (I recently decided to rip all of my CDs to .wav). Now I just finished installing the Bifrost analogue upgrade as well as adding the new USB card (planning to sell that to my brother), and I found a Peachtree iDAC for <1/2 of retail which will replace the Bifrost in the main stereo rig. I also picked up a used Halide Bridge as a relatively inexpensive USB->SPDIF converter to try out (should be arriving next week). I still prefer my turntable and CD player, but I'm trying to get with the times. I think I've got myself to the point where my I've got some gear that will sit nicely in my secondary systems once I find an endgame digital setup, but will be good enough to tide me over for the time being.
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That is one thing that I have been wondering about with the W4S dac. Is it the USB implementation or the DAC itself that is the problem? The I2S input means using the CI or OR5 usb converter could completely bypass the USB of the W4S. Obviously this wouldn't help if the DAC is a problem. I am somewhat interested in trying out a setup like this.
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I2S...another cable... facepalm
Considering Rick Cullen worked with Paul at PS Audio, I can't imagine how one DAC can be so different from the other for their USB implementation. It is not like he is a newbie engineer around audio. People spend big bucks for his Mods....
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I guess I am trying to understand what people are liking or not liking about various USB implementations. I do not have an unlimited opportunity to experiment with all of the most highly regarded gear to experience 1st person what the advantages or shortfalls there are.
Exactly what is it about the W4S USB that is its Achilles heel? Perhaps if it is something I could have pointed out and hear I would "Get" what the deal is. Right now I am not perceiving the problem. ATM, my current setup is the best I have ever heard. Since this is a journey, I feel like I am at a fork in the HP road and am not sure how to proceed. p:8
Dang hobby :spank:
As far as I know the W4S uses the M2Tech Hiface OEM module, whether W4S made any modifications, I don't know. I am pretty sure that it's powered by the 5V Vbus line, and I don't think there's any galvanic isolation either as that's mentioned as a "bonus" of the DAC2SE, which has also transitioned away from M2Tech to something that's USB Class 2 based, I'm not sure what.
As implemented by W4S, the Hiface module isn't very good, it's easily outclassed by most of the upper end USB converters and should be absolutely stomped on by an Empirical Off-Ramp... which uses the same Hiface module - just heavily modified.
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That is one thing that I have been wondering about with the W4S dac. Is it the USB implementation or the DAC itself that is the problem? The I2S input means using the CI or OR5 usb converter could completely bypass the USB of the W4S. Obviously this wouldn't help if the DAC is a problem. I am somewhat interested in trying out a setup like this.
It's a bit of both IMO. The W4S does definitely sound better with a good S/Pdif converter as opposed to straight USB... but it's still a bit "Sabre-ish" for my tastes, a bit analytical and a bit sterile with some definite glare in the lower treble. Definitely not as bad as a Benchmark or Lavry DAC, more Antelope Zodiac like, I think. Not my favorite.
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I guess I am trying to understand what people are liking or not liking about various USB implementations. I do not have an unlimited opportunity to experiment with all of the most highly regarded gear to experience 1st person what the advantages or shortfalls there are.
Exactly what is it about the W4S USB that is its Achilles heel? Perhaps if it is something I could have pointed out and hear I would "Get" what the deal is. Right now I am not perceiving the problem. ATM, my current setup is the best I have ever heard. Since this is a journey, I feel like I am at a fork in the HP road and am not sure how to proceed. p:8
Dang hobby :spank:
As far as I know the W4S uses the M2Tech Hiface OEM module, whether W4S made any modifications, I don't know. I am pretty sure that it's powered by the 5V Vbus line, and I don't think there's any galvanic isolation either as that's mentioned as a "bonus" of the DAC2SE, which has also transitioned away from M2Tech to something that's USB Class 2 based, I'm not sure what.
As implemented by W4S, the Hiface module isn't very good, it's easily outclassed by most of the upper end USB converters and should be absolutely stomped on by an Empirical Off-Ramp... which uses the same Hiface module - just heavily modified.
Dave, thanks for the patience!
Here is where I get confused. Outclassed? How exactly. In what fashion? What am I listening for?
I admit to being a subjectivist because I am not an engineering person. I appreciate graphs and specs, sometimes Marv makes me think he works for NASA! :-0 but I have seen graphs that don't translate to my ears. Specs that are great on paper, but underperform in the real world when compared to gear that has decidedly lesser specs.
I am not hearing the negative "Crush"...I spent several (Blissful!) hours today with my system switching between the Toslink and the USB inputs. Everything else stayed the same. Hands down I preferred the USB sonically. Fuller soundstage, better microphonics, clearly superior low end slam and form. Perhaps I am straining to perceive the last 2% or so and it's not happening. headbang
This is not where I want to discuss Sabre sonic characteristics. I get that different implementations could have some similar sonic signatures since they have the same root silicon. Kind of a family sound. I that realm I like Sabre, AKM and Wolfson's for different reasons.
I am trying to "get" this difference. I have great appreciation for this site. I post very little because I do not have the technical chops to step in, so I try to read and learn. We are starting to get to a price point greater than $2500, so I am really interested in these issues.
Thanks to you and everyone here for their time and expertise. ahoy
Eric
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I am far from an expert but generally USB and toslink are considered to provide lower sound quality than spdif/coax inputs. Comparing USB (stock) and toslink is not likely to show the improvement that you would get from a USB/SPDIF converter or a more technically proficient USB input. I believe the main problem with USB is an increase in jitter and electrical noise coming from your computer. This is made worse if the USB input is powered from the computer (which I think is the case with the W4S). I don't think it is all that uncommon for people to prefer USB to toslink, though I am not sure of the technical limitations of the toslink system. Given your impressions there must be something seriously wrong with toslink for the W4S USB to sound better.
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I am far from an expert but generally USB and toslink are considered to provide lower sound quality than spdif/coax inputs. Comparing USB (stock) and toslink is not likely to show the improvement that you would get from a USB/SPDIF converter or a more technically proficient USB input. I believe the main problem with USB is an increase in jitter and electrical noise coming from your computer. This is made worse if the USB input is powered from the computer (which I think is the case with the W4S). I don't think it is all that uncommon for people to prefer USB to toslink, though I am not sure of the technical limitations of the toslink system. Given your impressions there must be something seriously wrong with toslink for the W4S USB to sound better.
Toslink straight from a Mac is notoriously bad. Toslink itself has never been all that great, but it's also dependent on the source. A really good transport connected via Toslink would be a definite improvement, although S/Pdif and AES/EBU are always better.
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I am far from an expert but generally USB and toslink are considered to provide lower sound quality than spdif/coax inputs. Comparing USB (stock) and toslink is not likely to show the improvement that you would get from a USB/SPDIF converter or a more technically proficient USB input. I believe the main problem with USB is an increase in jitter and electrical noise coming from your computer. This is made worse if the USB input is powered from the computer (which I think is the case with the W4S). I don't think it is all that uncommon for people to prefer USB to toslink, though I am not sure of the technical limitations of the toslink system. Given your impressions there must be something seriously wrong with toslink for the W4S USB to sound better.
There is a disconnect between all the reviews along with my personal experience and some perspectives regarding measurements and choice of designer implementation. I appreciate what people are saying, I am not hearing these issues.
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There is a disconnect between all the reviews along with my personal experience and some perspectives regarding measurements and choice of designer implementation. I appreciate what people are saying, I am not hearing these issues.
You mentioned that you found that the USB input handily outperformed Toslink. You can take all of those same attributes and apply them to a high-end S/Pdif converter as opposed to the native input.
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I should have a Stello U3 in the house in a couple of weeks. We'll see how that goes....
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Curious about FireWire versus USB in this jitter business. I know FireWire lost but didn't Weiss and apogee put out some decent gear?
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Curious about FireWire versus USB in this jitter business. I know FireWire lost but didn't Weiss and apogee put out some decent gear?
Firewires demise was due to the lack of standard implementation. Too much latitude was taken with various chipsets resulting in "works with this but not with that" scenarios. If you can get a firewire dac to work with your system the results are generally fairly spectacular. BUT....getting there is NOT half the fun.
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Any thoughts on the CI Transient MKII dac section vs Concero, Gungnir, X-Sabre? I couldn't find a whole lot on the Transient. I like that the Transient has more options for digital to digital conversion than the Concero. The ability to cut out USB power is nice as well. I am trying to wait for the Schiit statement, CI Audio DAC, or anything else new/interesting in the $2000 range before I jump into the high end. I figure the Transient would provide a sufficient DAC with the added bonus of being used as a high quality converter when I upgrade. Also, would the power supply upgrade be "worth it"?
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Any thoughts on the CI Transient MKII dac section vs Concero, Gungnir, X-Sabre? I couldn't find a whole lot on the Transient. I like that the Transient has more options for digital to digital conversion than the Concero. The ability to cut out USB power is nice as well. I am trying to wait for the Schiit statement, CI Audio DAC, or anything else new/interesting in the $2000 range before I jump into the high end. I figure the Transient would provide a sufficient DAC with the added bonus of being used as a high quality converter when I upgrade. Also, would the power supply upgrade be "worth it"?
I wouldn't expect the Transient to be able to compete with the others as a DAC. I think the design goal was to make a really good converter with the DAC being a bonus, for exactly the people that are looking to get their feet wet and start with the Transient as a DAC and later switch it over to being a converter for a higher-end DAC, as it should outperform the native USB inputs on most of them. The power supply should definitely provide an improvement over bus power. The only thing there is that the Transient + LPS starts coming within the range of the Off-Ramp 5.
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Glad to see you guys are taking this seriously. I guess I was misinformed, I was told the format you were developing was LTL, or "Losslessier Than Lossless" where you inject extra data in the ultrasonic regions that, when played backwards, cause bats, dogs, and dolphins to worship satan.
When I play my new DAC backwards, it says, "Paul is dead." I call it a record player. =)
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Any thoughts on the CI Transient MKII dac section vs Concero, Gungnir, X-Sabre? I couldn't find a whole lot on the Transient. I like that the Transient has more options for digital to digital conversion than the Concero. The ability to cut out USB power is nice as well. I am trying to wait for the Schiit statement, CI Audio DAC, or anything else new/interesting in the $2000 range before I jump into the high end. I figure the Transient would provide a sufficient DAC with the added bonus of being used as a high quality converter when I upgrade. Also, would the power supply upgrade be "worth it"?
I wouldn't expect the Transient to be able to compete with the others as a DAC. I think the design goal was to make a really good converter with the DAC being a bonus, for exactly the people that are looking to get their feet wet and start with the Transient as a DAC and later switch it over to being a converter for a higher-end DAC, as it should outperform the native USB inputs on most of them. The power supply should definitely provide an improvement over bus power. The only thing there is that the Transient + LPS starts coming within the range of the Off-Ramp 5.
Fair enough, that is about what I expected. I think I read that both the Transient and Concero use their respective DAC chips analog outputs (?) so I thought it might be close between those two, since they are the same kind of concept.
I am still considering an OR5 to Gungnir combo. I have read that the Gungnir is better from the balanced outputs vs. the single ended. Do any Gungnir owners/former owners have remarks on that? Also, are the Gungnir inputs galvanically isolated? I am wondering if it would work with an OR5 with the OTL upgrade.
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BIG thanks to anetode for loaning me his "extra" DA-11! :)p6
My Benchmark DAC1 HPO is a bit more polite than the DA-11 HPO in sub-bass impact and quantity as well as upper treble.
Makes the DA-11 a bit more "lively" sounding. I'd choose the DA-11 over the DAC1 for the sub-bass alone.
I wanted to confirm my previous impressions as well as consider upgrading the DAC1 to a DA-11.
Other considerations?
The DAC1 was great for doing A/B out of the two headphone outs and for comparing what various amps were doing or tubes were doing by switching back and forth between the SS headphone out and any amp. Totally served its purpose. Mine has a nice sweeping pot, which I like better than the stepped attenuators of newer DAC1s.
I like the PiC options on the DA-11. Could be helpful for those using multiple phones and wanting to adjust the width/presentation of the headstage. The DA-10 and DA-11 have interesting toggle switches for volume control. Doesn't feel as good but you can set numerical volume values for sighted reference.
Didn't go into the depth of some of the great reviews/comparos on this site. I wanted to check tonality, extension, impact.
The result?
I am now just fine with selling the DAC1 back to my friend. Wanted to keep it around for second rig or for the presentation but I found a good driver tube for the BA that gets me what I want.
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I picked up an Anedio D2 last week for a pretty nice price. So far I am quite impressed. I have been using the built in headphone amp while I wait for Craig to finish my amp. I am predicting that the sound will be vastly improved once I get a real amplifier to pair it with. Overall I would say the presentation is very smooth but still retaining low level detail retrieval. The thing that impressed me the most has been the dynamics. Not only the crescendo of the music, but how I can feel the individual notes develop from soft to loud as they are being played by certain instruments (I am sure there is an audiophile term for this that I am unaware of). It is hard to describe accurately but it gives me the sense that I can hear the air being blown into the trumpet turn into a musical note.
My only point of reference to the Anedio D2 is my CLAS -db that I have been using for the last few months. The presentation is similar between the two, with the Anedio D2 being a slightly clearer and more precise sound in addition to the improved dynamic range that I already mentioned. I wonder if the improved dynamics has something to do with the the built in amplifier having more power to drive the HD800. I am still considering adding an OR5 to this DAC at some point in the future, but for now I am happy with the performance for the price I paid.
One more note, I definitely noticed an improvement in the sound after I left the DAC on for 24+ hours. I remembered Purrin saying that he never turns his DACs off and I can see why. The sound is much smoother and more tonally accurate when it has been left on. I am going to do some more testing and see how it goes.
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My only point of reference to the Anedio D2 is my CLAS -db that I have been using for the last few months. The presentation is similar between the two, with the Anedio D2 being a slightly clearer and more precise sound in addition to the improved dynamic range that I already mentioned. I wonder if the improved dynamics has something to do with the the built in amplifier having more power to drive the HD800. I am still considering adding an OR5 to this DAC at some point in the future, but for now I am happy with the performance for the price I paid.
The USB input on the Anedio really isn't bad. It is bus powered, but it at least has galvanic isolation which isn't the case on the 5X more expensive Meitner DAC. The areas where it could be improved are the power supply, clocks, and S/Pdif wire that connects the USB card to the main input board. The power supply could be bettered with an iUSB or a Y-type USB cable with a 5V battery or LPS. The S/Pdif wire from what I remember is just a short length of unshielded twisted pair. Replacing that with a high quality shielded coax wire might make an improvement. The hardest thing to change would be the clocks, but it can be done. I know there was a guy on HF awhile back offering to replace the clocks on the Anedio U2 with the same Crystek ones that Berkeley uses.
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Definitely. I certainly don't have a problem with the USB input the way it is. The reality is I doubt I would be able to tell the difference if I were to replace the connecting wire and by the time I replace clocks and get a solution to the bus powered input I might as well just look at getting a higher quality USB converter anyway. Truthfully I am still interested in upgrading my DAC when the next crop of releases come out anyway. The Schiit statement DAC and CI Audio DAC have my interest if/when they ever get released. The Anedio D2 meets all of my requirements for now. While I have become somewhat enamored with the digital audio technology (mostly due to the interesting discussions in this thread), the thought of buying a DAC that will quickly become obsolete made me decide to stay in the $1000-$1500 range for my first serious DAC.
On an unrelated note, the MSB Analog DAC looks really neat. It will be interesting to see if there is a shift away from the sigma delta chips to R2R after the Sabre chip FOTM is over. I recall Schiit saying that the statement DAC won't be using a sigma delta chip.
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Had an interesting talk w/ the CIAudio guy at Newport, asked him to compare his stuff w/ Empirical and all he said was they have a 30-day moneyback and to date have yet to receive a single return. I'm tempted to be the first, otherwise I'll be out money for a worthwhile product.
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I was tempted by the transient as well. I put in an offer for one on audiogon but never heard anything back. It certainly looks interesting and a comparison to the OR5 would be nice. The transient has an added bonus that it is capable of functioning as a DAC. If I wasn't outside of the states I probably would have bought both the Transient and OR5 just to test them out but taxes and shipping were too large a sunk cost if I wanted to sell them on.
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Had an interesting talk w/ the CIAudio guy at Newport, asked him to compare his stuff w/ Empirical and all he said was they have a 30-day moneyback and to date have yet to receive a single return. I'm tempted to be the first, otherwise I'll be out money for a worthwhile product.
Don't know anything about that company but I've heard that line from a few others and suspect (in most cases) and know (in one specific case) its BS. I bought a DAC with 30 day policy from a company that told me they'd never had a return - I returned it within 30 days. Later suggested it to a friend whose preferences were different and they gave him the same spiel even though I had just returned mine.
I think they say that not only to intimate customer satisfaction but also to make you doubt yourself if you don't like it in the first 30 days - no one else returned it. So you keep it and try to get into it until one day you realize you were right but its too late to return.
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Yeah, I smelled the BS. It was also suspect when he didn't want to get technical when he claimed the CIA stuff sounded so much better than EA. First hint.
I only mention it because I have been proven wrong before by a few money back policies and ended up keeping the gear because of performance exceeding expectations.
Yeah, a piece of gear has three solid days to make it or break it w/ me. I don't believe in getting used to anything. I've never had to get used to any instrument, though I'm scared saying that at the thought of what you might link in your next post.
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I was tempted by the transient as well. I put in an offer for one on audiogon but never heard anything back. It certainly looks interesting and a comparison to the OR5 would be nice. The transient has an added bonus that it is capable of functioning as a DAC. If I wasn't outside of the states I probably would have bought both the Transient and OR5 just to test them out but taxes and shipping were too large a sunk cost if I wanted to sell them on.
Stapsy, what about this since over on your side of the pond? http://www.jack-fi.ro/produs/audiobyte-hydra/
Sounds like the head-fi post is shillin it but very curious since more folks seem to be offering a USB-to-SPDIF converter product these days just to "hop on the bandwagon".
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Has anyone got experience with DAC's that use the Pass D1 output stage? I might build a FETaudio FDA-1B DAC in some not too distant future and wanted to know how sound is the IV on that thing.
http://www.fetaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/FDA-1B-DAC-Manual_r1.pdf
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Stapsy, what about this since over on your side of the pond? http://www.jack-fi.ro/produs/audiobyte-hydra/
Sounds like the head-fi post is shillin it but very curious since more folks seem to be offering a USB-to-SPDIF converter product these days just to "hop on the bandwagon".
Unfortunately I am not on the other side of the pond, I am up north with the polar bears :)p17
Anyway that does look a good option for those in the UK, as does the JKENNY ciunas converter. I wonder what chip it is based around? It is also interesting to see that it supports DSD. I'm not sure if it would be capable of converting DSD input to a PCM output if your DAC wasn't capable of DSD, or if that would even give you any advantage of DSD (BTW this is my prediction for Schiit's DSD solution). I could see it being useful if you wanted to rip SACD, but given how much of a pain that is I doubt it will really matter.
It is also nice to see that I2S is getting more support. Hopefully more DAC producers will be utilizing I2S inputs. It seems to me like the USB converter may be on the outs anyway with more DACs focusing on the USB inputs.
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I'm not sure if it would be capable of converting DSD input to a PCM output if your DAC wasn't capable of PCM, or if that would even give you any advantage of DSD (BTW this is my prediction for Schiit's DSD solution).
Wrongo dongo.
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I'm not sure if it would be capable of converting DSD input to a PCM output if your DAC wasn't capable of PCM, or if that would even give you any advantage of DSD
Considering that most SACDs (probably 99.9%) were mixed or mastered in 24/96 or 24/192 PCM, there probably wasn't any inherent advantage in DSD in the first place. Keep in mind that DSD is a 1-bit system with noise shaping to increase dynamic range in the audible band, but increases noise above it. Low pass filters are required with DSD, typically with the center point of the filter around ~40kHz, to remove the high-frequency gunk from the noise shaping. As we go up in frequencies, there is less and less content and more and more noise. In other words, SACD does not contain the full spectrum of frequencies found in 24/96, assuming the recording has such ultrasonic content in the first place*. This of course only matters if such ultrasonic content is even audible.**
* It's surprising how much "hires" content (music, recordings) has so little (or zero) actual hires information when the spectrum is examined under Adobe Audition, etc.
** It's certainly possible that DACs may handle highres content differently from 44.1 (different low pass filter points.) We already know that SACD/DSD is handled differently than PCM with a lowpass filter specifically for DSD.
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I'm not sure if it would be capable of converting DSD input to a PCM output if your DAC wasn't capable of PCM, or if that would even give you any advantage of DSD
Considering that most SACDs (probably 99.9%) were mixed or mastered in 24/96 or 24/192 PCM, there probably wasn't any inherent advantage in DSD in the first place. Keep in mind that DSD is a 1-bit system with noise shaping to increase dynamic range in the audible band, but increases noise above it. Low pass filters are required with DSD, typically with the center point of the filter around ~40kHz, to remove the high-frequency gunk from the noise shaping. As we go up in frequencies, there is less and less content and more and more noise. In other words, SACD does not contain the full spectrum of frequencies found in 24/96, assuming the recording has such ultrasonic content in the first place*. This of course only matters if such ultrasonic content is even audible.
* It's surprising how much "hires" content (music, recordings) has so little (or zero) actual hires information when the spectrum is examined under Adobe Audition, etc.
There you go messing with the next marketing holy grail for DAC's.... walk the plank2
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I don't know if anyone's noticed, but DSD is dead, with maybe the exception of a few Jazz and Classical audiophile labels. And even then, this stuff is mixed and mastered in 24/192 or DXD (PCM 24/384). The 1-bit DSD format does not lend itself easily to editing. There is editing gear out there which will work directly with the DSD stream, but it's extremely specialized and expensive. Maybe 6 people in the world use it.
I would like to see with these so called audiophile hires recordings is indication of the formats used in each step of the production process, i.e.
Recorded in 24/96 PCM
Mixed and mastered in 24/192
Converted to DSD
Sourced from Analog Tape
ADC conversion to 24/192
Mastered in 24/192
Converted to 24/96
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I'm not sure if it would be capable of converting DSD input to a PCM output if your DAC wasn't capable of PCM, or if that would even give you any advantage of DSD (BTW this is my prediction for Schiit's DSD solution).
Wrongo dongo.
Yea I figured that you folks would come up with a far better solution than that. It was my best guess given the parameters, so I thought I would throw it out there just in case I would be able to look like a genius. If only I hadn't been quoted I could have edited that out and nobody would have been any the wiser.
Thanks for the explanation Purrin. As with everything it looks like DSD does have its downsides. I don't want to rehash the whole discussion we had in another thread about DSD, but a USB converter that supports DSD seems especially pointless. I was under the impression that the DSD signal could only be carried through USB and HDMI. In the case of a USB converter that would essentially mean to use DSD you would be limited to the I2S output, which would only be useful if you had one of the handful of DACs with an I2S input.
Increased dynamic range in the audio band sounds really good though. At some point I may buy an SACD just to try it out. I have one of the original PS3's that will play them. As far as I can tell the PS3 converts the output to PCM anyway, so I am back to square one. Meh, might be worth a try.
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I have an SACD player. Mostly play CDs on it though; most SACD seems to be prohibitively expensive. Rich audiophile collectors items. I'm not willing to pay $50 for a marginally superior recording when I can grab the CD used for $5.
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On an unrelated note, the MSB Analog DAC looks really neat. It will be interesting to see if there is a shift away from the sigma delta chips to R2R after the Sabre chip FOTM is over. I recall Schiit saying that the statement DAC won't be using a sigma delta chip.
Seems unlikely. There's MSB and a few other companies using MSB DACs, and Metrum. Most of the other R2R DACs are using ancient chips like the TDA1543 (why bother). With supplies of the PCM1704 becoming increasingly difficult to get, I think S-D is here to stay. What has been a surprise is to see some companies that have a certain house sound like Accuphase migrate to the Sabre which is definitey different from that sound. I guess they are after the plankton.
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Thanks for the explanation Purrin. As with everything it looks like DSD does have its downsides. I don't want to rehash the whole discussion we had in another thread about DSD, but a USB converter that supports DSD seems especially pointless. I was under the impression that the DSD signal could only be carried through USB and HDMI. In the case of a USB converter that would essentially mean to use DSD you would be limited to the I2S output, which would only be useful if you had one of the handful of DACs with an I2S input.
Increased dynamic range in the audio band sounds really good though. At some point I may buy an SACD just to try it out. I have one of the original PS3's that will play them. As far as I can tell the PS3 converts the output to PCM anyway, so I am back to square one. Meh, might be worth a try.
The upside to DSD is that there's none of the usual linear/minimum/apodising filters to mess with, though those are mostly an issue with 16/44 where the effect of pre and/or post ringing is within the audible band. In *theory* at least, 24/96 content should greatly reduce the impact of that.
As for HF content, in my experience that often depends on whether the original recording came from tape, and whether that was directly converted or run through low pass filtering first. If you rip original vinyl pressings from recordings done prior to the mid '90s, pretty much the only limit to how much HF is there is how high your phono cart can go. I have plenty of vinyl rips with information at 70kHz+.
The need for a USB converter with DSD support is indeed somewhat questionable. Foobar can do the real-time PCM conversion itself with Foo SACD input, so to be any use whatsoever, the converter would have to sound better than the available algorithms in the plug-in. Maybe they do, but straight DSD into the DAC is obviously preferable so anybody serious about DSD should just get a DAC that supports DoP rather than bothering with DSD out to a USB converter and having that convert to PCM before going into the DAC.
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Both Foobar (with plug-in) and JRiver MC can convert DSD to PCM in real time. These options should not be discounted. JRiver will even convert DSD to DXD in real-time, which in theory should be lossless. I haven't done any analysis (in Adobe audition) of those conversions though. Given that most people's DSD material is a tiny percentage of their music collections, one is probably better off in keeping their current PCM DACs and using Foobar/JRiver conversions.
A dedicated DSD DAC may not necessary sound any better than a PCM only DAC (with DSD to PCM conversion) that one already owns. For example, I prefer the sound quality of DSD converted to PCM on PWD2 (in foobar or JRiver) than DSD over DoP to the X-Sabre / Invicta. There may be a better reason if one is upgrading to a better DAC to get a DSD compatible DAC of couse. But still, the "DSD" moniker does add costs to any DAC design, and one may even wonder if PCM capabilities of such a DAC may be purposely gimped to make DSD sound better.
If one is concerned with the effect of the anti-aliasing filters with 16/44 content, one can always use an oversampling DAC, or upsample content in real-time, or even better upsample 16/44 content with Adobe Audition or r8brain to hires.
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^ This. The SQ of your DAC should take priority over any claimed DSD support. Reminds me of when people were buying headphones based on manufacturer's claimed Frequency Response. Do I get the one that only goes 20-20k or the one that says 5-65k?
For the record, I know two people that bought the new Teac DAC for DSD that are very disappointed. Can't say I blame them.
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So folks, suppose I am to burn through some serious $$$ (say, ~$5k) for a stationary rig, which great DACs and amps are available?
Bonus points if the DAC is also portable, but it's not required. The USB implementation I have has very stable clocks on the USB 3 line if that's important, which it shouldn't be.
SPDIF source is probably preferred - I'd at least want to have it.
Target headphones are quite wide range, including CIEMs (plural), my HE-500 and Senn HD800 as well.
Since I do like to use equalizers, the inherent tonality matters much less for the HD800, so there's no need for special synergy.
However, I do prefer my sound to be very well controlled over "romantic".
So, Schiit combo is one bet, anything else?
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So its 5K for an amp and DAC, with the DAC having USB and SPDIF input? If that is the case there are a lot of options available. Any preference regarding % spent on the Amp v DAC, balanced v single ended, tube vs SS? I have just finished going through the exact same process as you. In the end I decided to spend significantly more of my budget on the amp instead of the DAC. It remains to be seen how that will turn out
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I'm not sure if it would be capable of converting DSD input to a PCM output if your DAC wasn't capable of PCM, or if that would even give you any advantage of DSD
Considering that most SACDs (probably 99.9%) were mixed or mastered in 24/96 or 24/192 PCM, there probably wasn't any inherent advantage in DSD in the first place. Keep in mind that DSD is a 1-bit system with noise shaping to increase dynamic range in the audible band, but increases noise above it. Low pass filters are required with DSD, typically with the center point of the filter around ~40kHz, to remove the high-frequency gunk from the noise shaping. As we go up in frequencies, there is less and less content and more and more noise. In other words, SACD does not contain the full spectrum of frequencies found in 24/96, assuming the recording has such ultrasonic content in the first place*. This of course only matters if such ultrasonic content is even audible.**
* It's surprising how much "hires" content (music, recordings) has so little (or zero) actual hires information when the spectrum is examined under Adobe Audition, etc.
** It's certainly possible that DACs may handle highres content differently from 44.1 (different low pass filter points.) We already know that SACD/DSD is handled differently than PCM with a lowpass filter specifically for DSD.
Acknowledged, Purrin. And yet, I have rarely heard a CD or DVD-A that had the effortless liquidity and clarity that I found routinely in SACDs back in my SCD-1 days. I read your post below, as well, and I have read the arguments in this forum saying, "It's really because they were mastered more carefully." I know there is a good deal of professional expertise on this site--yourself, Dave BSC, LFF (I think?), and others. I am simply a consumer, a veteran music listener going back over one-half century. What has always frustrated me to the point of rage is the way the big music companies have apparently fought to keep high-rez from us in whatever format. So if some folks are playing around with DSD and DXD, why must any of us oppose them? Look, I want the best sounding software I can get to enjoy (vinyl, disc, download, electrical brain probe). I don't care about philosophy or politics, I don't care how it's made or what the "real reason" is that it sounds good, I just want it! Life is short, and my life is getting shorter. So please, any of you in the business, just work toward real, high-resolution music products available to ordinary people without asking them to await the Second Coming to get it. Thanks. :)p2
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I was tempted by the transient as well. I put in an offer for one on audiogon but never heard anything back. It certainly looks interesting and a comparison to the OR5 would be nice. The transient has an added bonus that it is capable of functioning as a DAC. If I wasn't outside of the states I probably would have bought both the Transient and OR5 just to test them out but taxes and shipping were too large a sunk cost if I wanted to sell them on.
Stapsy: I wouldn't encourage anything illegal or unethical, but maybe the reality of we audiophiles often dealing in used equipment--off the retail grid, so to speak--could help your situation. Could you not send money to a friend or family member over here to buy you something, then later they ship or mail it to you? Would this save anything? ;)
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Oh there are excellent DSD/SACD masters that were never released on redbook. No question. When I was younger, I got into DVD Audio and thought that was the shit. I went back to listen to those same discs recently and my god they suck in so many unimaginable ways. A lot reasons and experiences for what we believe we believe. Some valid, some not.
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Oh there are excellent DSD/SACD masters that were never released on redbook. No question. When I was younger, I got into DVD Audio and thought that was the shit. I went back to listen to those same discs recently and my god they suck in so many unimaginable ways. A lot reasons and experiences for what we believe we believe. Some valid, some not.
True, true. People, places, things. They all contribute to the context in which we remember or believe things.
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It's not matter of opposing those who are interested in DSD rather than making folks think for a minute.
I have nothing against DSD per se. I have some DSD material and continue to slowly track down rare SACDs of yesteryear. To me, what SACD/DSD does is simply provide me with an alternate source for recordings. It's as you said: "I want to the best sounding software I can get". However, it has been my experience that production (mixing or mastering) quality provides much more notable "sonic gains" than that of any from different formats, hires or not. I will come back to this point.
I would also submit to you the possibility that Sony concentrated much harder on the SACD circuitry of the SCD-1 than the PCM circuitry. I would also submit to you that SACD made much more sense when the SCD-1 was around (1999). Last time I checked (2013), SACD was effectively dead.
Two of my most favorite natural instrument recordings were given to me by LFF. Stanley Black (LSO) Film Spectacular and Sargent's (LSO) Mussorgsky: Pictures of an Exhibition. I have no idea where he sourced the material, what he did to them, nor will I ask him. He is entitled to his secrets. Both of these recordings are 16/44. They have the most effortless liquidity, clarity, immediacy, dynamics, and natural timbre that I have ever heard regardless of format: DSD, DXD (which is PCM 24/384), PCM 24/192, whatever.
I also have strong suspicions of the effortless liquidity and clarity which you claim to have routinely found with SACD from your SCD-1. Or at least I do not feel "effortless liquidity and clarity" is something specially inherent in the DSD format. Or it's possible a lot of effort was put into the production quality of early SACDs. While many SACDs are excellent sounding, i.e. well mastered, it has been my experience that quite a few of them have been less than satisfactory (shit). Examples of such are the Michael Jackson SACDs (all them of worse sounding than the originals or some recent CD remasters), Peter Gabriel So SACD (seems to be taken from an awful re-master released on CD in 2002), and Depeche Mode Black Celebration SACD. I much prefer the original CDs to the SACD versions of these albums. Extra brightness on many of these SACDs/remasters does not equate to extra clarity. At least not for me.
As for high resolution material having a tendency toward effortless liquidity - I do seem to hear this myself. But this effect is not exclusive nor necessary superior on DSD compared to PCM 24/88 24/192 or DXD (PCM 24/384). I suspect this characteristic may be more attributable to the more gentle digital filters as the sampling rate is pushed upward. And as DaveBSC had shown in another thread, for many so called "hires" recordings available for purchase, one only needs to re-sample "lowly" 16/44 material to 24/192 to get a recording with the same musical content (assuming there was never any content above 22kHz in the first place, which is not uncommon.)
Again, what I am trying to do is to make folks think why they want a DSD capable DAC. Do they want a DSD capable DAC because they want DSD for the sake of DSD or believe that DSD is somehow a superior format with effortless liquidity and clarity like none other (which is nonsense because 99.9% of the original material came from tape or was mastered in PCM 24/96 or PCM 24/192).
Let me also illustrate by describing a real situation at THE SHOW 2013:
Me (speaking to a friend): I know that DAC. That DAC sucks. It sounds nasty. We gotta take that into consideration.
Salesguy (overhearing me): Well, you know, this headphone really needs DSD to be fed through that DAC for it to sound its best.
Me (thinking): Fuck you asshole. If DSD is so inherently fricking awesome, why don't you have any DSD on your computer?
Bottom line: how much DSD ya got?
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As for high resolution material having a tendency toward effortless liquidity - I do seem to hear this myself. But this effect is not exclusive nor necessary superior on DSD compared to PCM 24/88 24/192 or DXD (PCM 24/384). I suspect this characteristic may be more attributable to the more gentle digital filters as the sampling rate is pushed upward.
I hear the same. I didn't tell you this, but I went back the Antelope room at The SHOW, same guy as last time that wouldn't let me hear my sample disc. This year, he remembered me, especially after seeing a glimpse of the HD800 in my bag. Quite a different experience, he was much more open and this time let me hear my disc, through my phones using the Antelope Rubicon. While it was very good for that sort of analytical SS type of source/amp, it had the usual pitfalls and I shared that with him. He said to wait, dug into his computer and changed a few settings. All was better, smoother, more refined and balanced within the inherent nature and signature of the device. I asked him what he did, he turned on upsampling. Which I will say is much better than PS Audios version on the PWD. I'll have to play w/ JRiver's one day when I'm done A/Bing stuff. One of the nicer experinces at The SHOW. Till Jerry 'Prick fuck' Axelrod went all Senior citizen Grand Dragon Klansman on me in his little spiderhole of a room for unplugging the Abyss TRS jack w/ the volume fully attenuated.
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The PWD upsamping is a chip based ASRC. I haven't heard a good implementation of ASRC yet. Seems to remove information, dull the attacks, and any extra smoothness seems to be artificial and plastic. JRiver upsampling seems to be decent. Would be interesting to compare it with the aforementioned r8brain or Adobe Audition upsampling.
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The PWD upsamping is a chip based ASRC. I haven't heard a good implementation of ASRC yet. Seems to remove information, dull the attacks, and any extra smoothness seems to be artificial and plastic. JRiver upsampling seems to be decent. Would be interesting to compare it with the aforementioned r8brain or Adobe Audition upsampling.
That's exactly what I hear, you are spot on. I guess ears are useful after all. Nah, that can't be right. ;)
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I have a DSD/DXD capable DAC as you all know, the X-Sabre. I didn't buy it because I felt those formats were superior. I didn't even care about those formats. I was drawn to the build quality and the Sabre chip as well as the customer service I received from Arthur of Matrix-USA. After receiving it, I was happy that the DAC did have those formats available just so I could ensure compatibility with almost any file out there, and I did experiment with both formats quite a bit at first and found them to sound good, but with such small selection I never once considered that I would ONLY listen to DSD/DXD again. I haven't listened to one of those files in over a month now, and rarely even listen to anything but 16/44 and still enjoy the DAC just as much as I ever did.
I did press Mike and Marv to try the DSD/DXD on the X-Sabre while they had it because I wasn't sure if they had had a DAC capable of running those formats in their native forms, I wanted their opinion. I also wanted them to explore any possibility that Matrix had made the DSD/DXD sound better by limiting the other formats. Their opinions and mine agree that the quality is all in the record, not the format (within reason).
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I was tempted by the transient as well. I put in an offer for one on audiogon but never heard anything back. It certainly looks interesting and a comparison to the OR5 would be nice. The transient has an added bonus that it is capable of functioning as a DAC. If I wasn't outside of the states I probably would have bought both the Transient and OR5 just to test them out but taxes and shipping were too large a sunk cost if I wanted to sell them on.
Stapsy: I wouldn't encourage anything illegal or unethical, but maybe the reality of we audiophiles often dealing in used equipment--off the retail grid, so to speak--could help your situation. Could you not send money to a friend or family member over here to buy you something, then later they ship or mail it to you? Would this save anything? ;)
I appreciate the thought. I do actually have a mailbox in the US where I can send stuff and then go and pick it up. I just don't really want to mess with Canadian customs. I don't need the extra stress in my life. If I do end up ordering either converter it will be after I go on vacation down to the states and don't have to pay duty. Customs takes 13% plus I have to pay any brokerage fees. Empirical Audio is charging $150 for shipping fees, which is far too much for me to reasonably justify. You guys don't realize how lucky you are
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$150 to ship to Canada? Gawd! Didn't cost that much to send some D7000s to Paris.
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I was tempted by the transient as well. I put in an offer for one on audiogon but never heard anything back. It certainly looks interesting and a comparison to the OR5 would be nice. The transient has an added bonus that it is capable of functioning as a DAC. If I wasn't outside of the states I probably would have bought both the Transient and OR5 just to test them out but taxes and shipping were too large a sunk cost if I wanted to sell them on.
Stapsy: I wouldn't encourage anything illegal or unethical, but maybe the reality of we audiophiles often dealing in used equipment--off the retail grid, so to speak--could help your situation. Could you not send money to a friend or family member over here to buy you something, then later they ship or mail it to you? Would this save anything? ;)
I appreciate the thought. I do actually have a mailbox in the US where I can send stuff and then go and pick it up. I just don't really want to mess with Canadian customs. I don't need the extra stress in my life. If I do end up ordering either converter it will be after I go on vacation down to the states and don't have to pay duty. Customs takes 13% plus I have to pay any brokerage fees. Empirical Audio is charging $150 for shipping fees, which is far too much for me to reasonably justify. You guys don't realize how lucky you are
Under NAFTA, you shouldn't have to pay duty on anything coming from the USA. I didn't pay duty when I bought my Concero direct from Resonessence (although I did have to pay a $24 brokerage fee to UPS).
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$150 to ship to Canada? Gawd! Didn't cost that much to send some D7000s to Paris.
I know, the only way to ship cheaply across the border is to use USPS. Fedex and UPS skewer us with "customs brokerage fees". The shipping costs that they quote is for the Fedex service that includes the brokerage fees. I didn't pursue it anymore unless I was really serious about buying the OR5. You can see what I mean about the shipping costs being a killer for resale though. Even if I were to sell locally at the purchase price I would be losing at least $250. It just means us non-American's have to be extra selective about what we decide to purchase.
Yes you are correct about the duty, unless the product was produced outside of the states (though even if it was sold from the states they don't seem to worry too much). It is actually the federal/provincial sales tax that I have to pay...still hurts on the resale and it is a pain to recoup if you use the return policy.
My friend got some 007 mk2.5 and we were trying to get the demo LL2. The shipping and customs procedures were a bitch so we decided against it. Alex was willing to have it sent up here, but it would have cost at least $300.
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Well, if you need help getting one across the border, let me know. Especially if the OR6 comes out. Which Steve semi-confirmed will have the aluminum DAC chassis look.
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I was tempted by the transient as well. I put in an offer for one on audiogon but never heard anything back. It certainly looks interesting and a comparison to the OR5 would be nice. The transient has an added bonus that it is capable of functioning as a DAC. If I wasn't outside of the states I probably would have bought both the Transient and OR5 just to test them out but taxes and shipping were too large a sunk cost if I wanted to sell them on.
Stapsy: I wouldn't encourage anything illegal or unethical, but maybe the reality of we audiophiles often dealing in used equipment--off the retail grid, so to speak--could help your situation. Could you not send money to a friend or family member over here to buy you something, then later they ship or mail it to you? Would this save anything? ;)
I appreciate the thought. I do actually have a mailbox in the US where I can send stuff and then go and pick it up. I just don't really want to mess with Canadian customs. I don't need the extra stress in my life. If I do end up ordering either converter it will be after I go on vacation down to the states and don't have to pay duty. Customs takes 13% plus I have to pay any brokerage fees. Empirical Audio is charging $150 for shipping fees, which is far too much for me to reasonably justify. You guys don't realize how lucky you are
This guy does, now. I feel for you. And life in Canada does have its advantages. Good luck.
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It's not matter of opposing those who are interested in DSD rather than making folks think for a minute.
I have nothing against DSD per se. I have some DSD material and continue to slowly track down rare SACDs of yesteryear. To me, what SACD/DSD does is simply provide me with an alternate source for recordings. It's as you said: "I want to the best sounding software I can get". However, it has been my experience that production (mixing or mastering) quality provides much more notable "sonic gains" than that of any from different formats, hires or not. I will come back to this point.
I would also submit to you the possibility that Sony concentrated much harder on the SACD circuitry of the SCD-1 than the PCM circuitry. Quite possibly. As I implied, large music (and equipment) companies have not always behaved honorably. I would also submit to you that SACD made much more sense when the SCD-1 was around (1999). Last time I checked (2013), SACD was effectively dead. Fair enough and true enough.
Two of my most favorite natural instrument recordings were given to me by LFF. Stanley Black (LSO) Film Spectacular and Sargent's (LSO) Mussorgsky: Pictures of an Exhibition. I have no idea where he sourced the material, what he did to them, nor will I ask him. He is entitled to his secrets. I don't get why info like this must be treated as "secrets" or a black art of some sort, unless it is proprietary technique. Then, of course, he has all rights to divulge or not, protect his business, etc. If none of those caveats apply, however, I would think open discussion of what is really responsible for superior sound would shine a light where we all could benefit. Both of these recordings are 16/44. They have the most effortless liquidity, clarity, immediacy, dynamics, and natural timbre that I have ever heard regardless of format: DSD, DXD (which is PCM 24/384), PCM 24/192, whatever.
I also have strong suspicions of the effortless liquidity and clarity which you claim (my italics-JT) to have routinely found with SACD from your SCD-1. Polemical, unnecessarily, Marv. (Or at least I do not feel "effortless liquidity clarity" is something specially inherent in the DSD format. Or it's possible a lot of effort was put into the production quality of early SACDs. While many SACDs are excellent sounding, i.e. well mastered, it has been my experience that quite a few of them have been less than satisfactory (shit). Examples of such are the Michael Jackson SACDs (all them of worse sounding than the originals or some recent CD remasters), Peter Gabriel So SACD (seems to be taken from an awful re-master released on CD in 2002), and Depeche Mode Black Celebration SACD. I much prefer the original CDs to the SACD versions of these albums. Extra brightness on many of these SACDs/remasters does not equate to extra clarity. At least not for me.
As for high resolution material having a tendency toward effortless liquidity - I do seem to hear this myself. But this effect is not exclusive nor necessary superior on DSD compared to PCM 24/88 24/192 or DXD (PCM 24/384). I suspect this characteristic may be more attributable to the more gentle digital filters as the sampling rate is pushed upward. And as DaveBSC had shown in another thread, for many so called "hires" recordings available for purchase, one only needs to re-sample "lowly" 16/44 material to 24/192 to get a recording with the same musical content (assuming there was never any content above 22kHz in the first place, which is not uncommon.)
Again, what I am trying to do is to make folks think why they want a DSD capable DAC. On this I would agree 100% and applaud you. Do they want a DSD capable DAC because they want DSD for the sake of DSD or believe that DSD is somehow a superior format with effortless liquidity and clarity like none other (which is nonsense because 99.9% of the original material came from tape or was mastered in PCM 24/96 or PCM 24/192).
Let me also illustrate by describing a real situation at THE SHOW 2013:
Me (speaking to a friend): I know that DAC. That DAC sucks. It sounds nasty. We gotta take that into consideration.
Salesguy (overhearing me): Well, you know, this headphone really needs DSD to be fed through that DAC for it to sound its best.
Me (thinking): Fuck you asshole. If DSD is so inherently fricking awesome, why don't you have any DSD on your computer?
Bottom line: how much DSD ya got?
And here, you may have helped make my point: I have far more ugly-sounding CDs than than I have DSD or any other ostensibly superior format, except vinyl. The reason? Because we were all inundated with cheapest common denominator productions, pressings and format that could be force fed to us by the industry (CD; I believe it was inferior from Day One and still is). I wish I had tons of DSD and tons of DVD or tons of analog tape and ???--whatever would sound best, if the music business would only realize that it could have, all along, cost them the same or just a bit more to give us superior product. God knows they are not shy about overcharging. Someone commented on $50 SACDs and you have pointed out that 99% of these were not DSD at all, (which I did not know until recently) even if such were thought superior as a process. As you said or implied, I do not think we really disagree at all. But we all do need, if we care enough, to advocate in the strongest means available to us for high-resoultion, fairly priced music. We pay a lot for it. We deserve that much. If DSD is the way--a way--to get there, I'm for it. From what you and other technical folks have stated, it may not be the best way. I suppose I read the criticisms of the DSD FOTM as sounding too much like the establishment once again telling us what we needed to have, what we needed to like, what we needed. In 1982, Sony told us we needed "perfect sound forever" and, guess what, they had it. Except it wasn't.
Thanks for the time you took to write a response and share your ideas. I do believe in open communication above all. - Jeffrey
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Well, if you need help getting one across the border, let me know. Especially if the OR6 comes out. Which Steve semi-confirmed will have the aluminum DAC chassis look.
Cheers for that. The OR6 is a bit of a funny one. I was doing some reading on another forum and Steve said that it uses bus power. I am assuming that it is because he is now using XMOS. It seems odd to me that the design would be essentially taking a step backwards. I guess if you can filter out the noisy bus power in some way it would work. I have no reason to believe that Steve's design is compromised in some way given the track record, however I must admit that after hearing about this I am considering getting the OR5 instead while it is still available. Aluminum DAC chassis look is one big plus for OR6.
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Thanks for the time you took to write a response and share your ideas. I do believe in open communication above all. - Jeffrey
Yeah, I don't think we disagree. My audience was really for those starting to get into it. The folks who go, "I won't buy the (old) Concero because it doesn't do DSD", or "I won't buy the Bifrost" because it won't do DSD." Most of these folks probably don't have any DSD or DSD comprises less than 0.5% of their music.
One thing I forget to mention is that software tools allow now conversion from DSD to PCM, some software can do this during playback (JRiver, foobar+plug-in). It's also possible to rip SACDs, but I shall not go into this. You are not going to lose anything converting DSD to PCM 24/176. So this option (using software instead of DSD hardware/DAC) should be seriously considered.
Absolutely no reason for folks with PCM DACs to "upgrade" if they were happy with what they already had. (If the upgrade is real in terms of sonics (and the DAC happens to do DSD), as the Maxvla's case, then the DSD capabilities are icing on the cake.) I was actually on my way to building a DSD capable DAC until I realized the eventual costs (and effort) involved to build such a DAC which equaled the sonic quality of my current PCM DAC using real-time DSD->PCM conversion on the PC.
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It hasn't been posted on line yet, but the current issue (number 234) of TAS has a comparative review of the Mytek Stereo 192, the Benchmark DAC2 HGC, and the Lynx Hilo. In light of the "fun" that was had here with the Mytek, y'all might find this excerpt interesting:
Mytek sent me two Stereo 192 DSD-DACs, a black standard as well as a mastering version. For the review I used the standard version. I did listen to the mastering version near the end of the review period, primarily to see if the 400-plus hours of playing time I had put on the standard version had any effect on the sound compared to a brand-new unit with no playing time. There was a profound difference. The unused mastering version had a midrange glare and harder edge that was not present in the broken-in sample. Anyone evaluating a Mytek Stereo 192 DSD-DAC that has not been thoroughly broken-in hasn't really heard how a Mytek Stereo 192 DSD-DAC can sound. I recommend at least 200 hours with an active signal.
I have no dog in this fight; I'm thoroughly happy with my Hilo, and have never listened to a Mytek, new, broken-in, or otherwise. It's a little unusual in my (limited) experience for break-in to have that profound an impact on how a piece of gear performs. But this report puts the performance of the Mytek auditioned here in an interesting context.
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Thanks for the time you took to write a response and share your ideas. I do believe in open communication above all. - Jeffrey
Yeah, I don't think we disagree. My audience was really for those starting to get into it. The folks who go, "I won't buy the (old) Concero because it doesn't do DSD", or "I won't buy the Bifrost" because it won't do DSD." Most of these folks probably don't have any DSD or DSD comprises less than 0.5% of their music.
One thing I forget to mention is that software tools allow now conversion from DSD to PCM, some software can do this during playback (JRiver, foobar+plug-in). It's also possible to rip SACDs, but I shall not go into this. You are not going to lose anything converting DSD to PCM 24/176. So this option (using software instead of DSD hardware/DAC) should be seriously considered.
Absolutely no reason for folks with PCM DACs to "upgrade" if they were happy with what they already had. (If the upgrade is real in terms of sonics (and the DAC happens to do DSD), as the Maxvla's case, then the DSD capabilities are icing on the cake.) I was actually on my way to building a DSD capable DAC until I realized the eventual costs (and effort) involved to build such a DAC which equaled the sonic quality of my current PCM DAC using real-time DSD->PCM conversion on the PC.
ahoy
This is great news to me. I hate to broadcast my ignorance publicly, but I wasn't aware of this. All things computer-audio (almost all) are relatively new to me. There are probably others who are either new to the high-end or relighting the fire (my case), who have a similar learning curve ahead. I need a DAC and have been thinking I would have to get one with DSD capability "just in case," severely limiting the available options. Now I can shop freely while reading up on software tools and such.
Other than just, "the internet," I wonder if there is a clearinghouse of some sort where folks can go to make up for lost time with their knowledge base. Thanks, Marv.
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But this report puts the performance of the Mytek auditioned here in an interesting context.
In what way? The Mytek we used had been long run in and we always leave our stuff on and running for 3-4 days to ensure consistency. I usually post my impressions for each day over a 2-3 day period for this very reason.
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You can add Pure Music to the list of software that will convert DSD to PCM on the fly...
One thing I forget to mention is that software tools allow now conversion from DSD to PCM, some software can do this during playback (JRiver, foobar+plug-in). It's also possible to rip SACDs, but I shall not go into this. You are not going to lose anything converting DSD to PCM 24/176. So this option (using software instead of DSD hardware/DAC) should be seriously considered.
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Well, if you need help getting one across the border, let me know. Especially if the OR6 comes out. Which Steve semi-confirmed will have the aluminum DAC chassis look.
Cheers for that. The OR6 is a bit of a funny one. I was doing some reading on another forum and Steve said that it uses bus power. I am assuming that it is because he is now using XMOS. It seems odd to me that the design would be essentially taking a step backwards. I guess if you can filter out the noisy bus power in some way it would work. I have no reason to believe that Steve's design is compromised in some way given the track record, however I must admit that after hearing about this I am considering getting the OR5 instead while it is still available. Aluminum DAC chassis look is one big plus for OR6.
Yeah I was very surprised to read that as well. Steve said that using the Vbus was necessary for some of the circuits in the OR6 design. He believes that having galvanic isolation, reclocking, and a better isolation chip than the AD ADuM used in the Alpha USB will be enough to offset any negative impact of the Vbus so that, according to him, there wouldn't be any benefit from using something like an iUSB or Y-cable with a 5V LPS or battery in place of standard computer power. We'll see.
Re: DSD, I'm definitely a firm believer in buying what sounds best and listening to what medium sounds best, not what has what feature. There are some very nice SACDs, there are also plenty that were made from converted 16/44 masters and are no better than the CDs they were taken from. My SACD collection is tiny and will likely remain that way. Most recording these days is done at 24/48-96, the vinyl is cut from that, and then a 16/44 version is created and smashed to hell for the mainstream CD release. Aside from a few audiophile labels doing reissues, nobody is really bothering with DSD anyway. What's the real crime is that those dynamic, 24-bit high-res masters get locked up somewhere and nobody can have them unless they get the vinyl, which could be a 250 copy LE pressing. It's insane that those masters aren't for sale in a digital format.
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Pulled the trigger on a...(wait for it) Gungnir today.I guess you could say I got over the DSD issue. I was really pointing toward the Anedio D2 up to the last minute, mostly based on word of mouth and one or two good reviews. But taking all things into account--price/performance ratio, local access to manufacturer and warranty, people in this country who need the work and the business, the emphasis on balanced discrete circuits (nothing wrong with OAs, but it tells me that Schiit at least has their own, particular vision)--I went this way. And I have felt pretty good qbout it ever since. Well, it's only been hours, but you know, not a lot of cognitive dissonance. Now about these 2-headed usb cables?
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BTW, last night I noticed a PWD II selling for $2500 (OBO?). I didn't notice how old or new the listing was. Might be a good deal for those who want and can afford it.
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REAL men (and women) buy high-rez incapable 20-bit DACs! :)p1
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REAL men (and women) buy high-rez incapable 20-bit DACs! :)p1
+1 :)p3
I have several....
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Musical Fidelity's M6 DAC. A SRC4392, two DSD1796s, and a trio of LME49720 op-amps for I/V and output. A selectable digital filter that doesn't do anything. What a lazy fucking joke. For $3K!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--EKBOkB2FA0/UUbbicH0X9I/AAAAAAAADMQ/esR1-6TVU9s/s1600/Musical-Fidelity-M6-DAC-Bauteile-f630x378-ffffff-C-c38875c4-70063270.jpg)
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DaveBSC (or all of you other DAC crazy people), how does the Resonessence labs concero compare to... lets say (with my limited knowledge) NAD m51 or Anedio d2? Treat me like I know nothing because I don't.
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Musical Fidelity's M6 DAC. A SRC4392, two DSD1796s, and a trio of LME49720 op-amps for I/V and output. A selectable digital filter that doesn't do anything. What a lazy fucking joke. For $3K!
Why doesn't it do anything? Specs say it rolls-off to -3 dB at about 19845 Hz for 44.1 kHz. But even if that worked as advertised I don't see the point.
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DaveBSC (or all of you other DAC crazy people), how does the Resonessence labs concero compare to... lets say (with my limited knowledge) NAD m51 or Anedio d2? Treat me like I know nothing because I don't.
Short version: Concero is close enough to those two in performance that I would find it hard to justify spending the extra $ on a DAC unless you need I/O options that Concero doesn't provide.
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You would think that after Resonessence released info about the new versions of the Concero that current owners would be jumping ship to get ready for the new units. I haven't really seen any pop up for sale! Maybe I have to wait until they are actually available.
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DaveBSC (or all of you other DAC crazy people), how does the Resonessence labs concero compare to... lets say (with my limited knowledge) NAD m51 or Anedio d2? Treat me like I know nothing because I don't.
Short version: Concero is close enough to those two in performance that I would find it hard to justify spending the extra $ on a DAC unless you need I/O options that Concero doesn't provide.
Exactly...I had a big elaborate post about the technical differences that I accidentally deleted (which I can retype if you are interested) but I think that burn has summed it up perfectly. If all you require is single ended output and spdif/usb input then I say save the money and go for the concero. The one thing that I will say is the the Anedio has a very nice digital volume control and the built in amplifier is surprisingly good. I got one for $1100 used, which I think is at the point where the difference in price is worth it. At full retail I would definately stick with concero unless you need the added features.
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DaveBSC (or all of you other DAC crazy people), how does the Resonessence labs concero compare to... lets say (with my limited knowledge) NAD m51 or Anedio d2? Treat me like I know nothing because I don't.
Short version: Concero is close enough to those two in performance that I would find it hard to justify spending the extra $ on a DAC unless you need I/O options that Concero doesn't provide.
Depends on close enough. I'd take a NAD M51 over the Invicta based on SQ alone, so unless the Concero is better than an Invicta I'd disagree w/ that based on my preferences.
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I think that close enough is about the price performance ratio. I didn't notice a huge difference between the Anedio D2 and the CLAS-db that I had been using before that. Mostly small things like a slight increase in dynamics and plankton retrieval. They both have the same smooth presentation and I can't tell too much of a difference tonally. Given the excellent reviews, I expect the Concero will close that gap further. By all accounts it is the best in its price range.
It is a little unfair to compare the Concero with these DACs. I think that everyone will agree that the NAD M51 is the best of the lot, but it is also 3 times the price of the Concero. As grev is considering the Concero, I am assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that the cost is also a factor. In that case maybe it would be better do decide how much you are willing to spend on a DAC and then finding the best that you can get. In my research I thought that the $1000-$2000 was sparse in price/performance value, the only two I would consider are the D2 and M51. I would prefer to buy <$1000 or >$2000. Maybe some more information on preferences for sound and the other equipment in the chain would help to give better feedback. Personally, I would have bought the Concero if I didn't want the extra inputs.
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Musical Fidelity's M6 DAC. A SRC4392, two DSD1796s, and a trio of LME49720 op-amps for I/V and output. A selectable digital filter that doesn't do anything. What a lazy fucking joke. For $3K!
Why doesn't it do anything? Specs say it rolls-off to -3 dB at about 19845 Hz for 44.1 kHz. But even if that worked as advertised I don't see the point.
It don't. Rather than use a separate FPGA chip for their reconstruction filters, the MF just switches between the modes available on the DSD1796. All inputs go through the SRC4392 and are upsampled to 24/192 before reaching the DAC chips, which never see anything lower than that. Therefore, the slow/fast rolloff option is only effective at 24/192, where it begins rolling at around 75kHz as opposed to about 90kHz. In other words, it's not doing anything that would have any effect on listening. Nobody is listening at 75kHz.
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/613MFM6fig04.jpg)
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Oh wow, what they did there makes no sense. facepalm
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DaveBSC (or all of you other DAC crazy people), how does the Resonessence labs concero compare to... lets say (with my limited knowledge) NAD m51 or Anedio d2? Treat me like I know nothing because I don't.
Well you get balanced outputs from the Anedio and NAD for one thing, plus much better power supplies, although the NAD is using what appears to be a switcher. Not that a SMPS is the worst thing in the world, the Overdrive uses three of them, but they are heavily regulated to deal with the noise issues.
(http://www.humanmedia.com.au/NAD_M51_Internal.jpg)
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Again, consider the performance level deltas between DACs in relation to your chosen/preferred transducer. For most phones under $400, one will likely be less discerning or caring about these differences.
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Short version: Concero is close enough to those two in performance that I would find it hard to justify spending the extra $ on a DAC unless you need I/O options that Concero doesn't provide.
Exactly...I had a big elaborate post about the technical differences that I accidentally deleted (which I can retype if you are interested) but I think that burn has summed it up perfectly. If all you require is single ended output and spdif/usb input then I say save the money and go for the concero. The one thing that I will say is the the Anedio has a very nice digital volume control and the built in amplifier is surprisingly good. I got one for $1100 used, which I think is at the point where the difference in price is worth it. At full retail I would definately stick with concero unless you need the added features.
Oh I did this on purpose, but I really don't know anything about audio... but I do like to have a few predetermined values in my versus ideas, in this case, I wanted to know how a high quality USB powered DAC would compare to a high end DAC with it's own power supply etc etc, in my mind, if it could give similar results then a few assumptions can be made.
Can I ask you two a few questions though, how much advantage does a balanced setup (from DAC to amp) give to a speaker setup? And would it give the same perks to a headphone setup?
Also I'm not considering the concero because of cost, it is because of a portable USB bus powered DAC since I like portable/transportable setups.
Well you get balanced outputs from the Anedio and NAD for one thing, plus much better power supplies, although the NAD is using what appears to be a switcher. Not that a SMPS is the worst thing in the world, the Overdrive uses three of them, but they are heavily regulated to deal with the noise issues.
PS the NAD m51 is still $1499AUD. But I do want an amazing USB powered DAC. :P
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Well then ask yourself this, how much do you actually think you will transport the Concero around? The price you Aussies can get for the NAD is very tempting, but if you want something that can be moved around easily it seems like there is little point in a desktop DAC.
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Oh I did this on purpose, but I really don't know anything about audio... but I do like to have a few predetermined values in my versus ideas, in this case, I wanted to know how a high quality USB powered DAC would compare to a high end DAC with it's own power supply etc etc, in my mind, if it could give similar results then a few assumptions can be made.
Can I ask you two a few questions though, how much advantage does a balanced setup (from DAC to amp) give to a speaker setup? And would it give the same perks to a headphone setup?
Also I'm not considering the concero because of cost, it is because of a portable USB bus powered DAC since I like portable/transportable setups.
PS the NAD m51 is still $1499AUD. But I do want an amazing USB powered DAC. :P
Depends on your definition of "similar." The Concero is among the very best of bus powered devices, but every bus powered device I have encountered has improved considerably when the Vbus line is replaced with a 5V battery or linear source, both of which must be plugged in to a wall socket eventually.
If you want portable-ish DAC that can be powered by the USB bus that also provides a balanced output the Calyx does that. You're definitely not getting the best from it when you use USB power but it at least provides that option, and when you get it home you can use their CLPS. Any performance benefit from balanced over single-ended will depend on the system.
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Should I go for it? The intention is to keep it as my reference rig for the next handful of years at least.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/Kirosia/Schiit.jpg)
My only genuine worry is that Schiit releases better equipment in the same price bracket soon. Don't see too many of these in the h-fi classifieds, so I'd have to buy new. Headphones are K701/CIEMs. Speakers are powered monitors, Swans. Current source is my motherboard.
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Can't think of anything much better possible at that price bracket. You might as well hold out forever then.
Also motherboard isn't the best current source. Hodor.
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(http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=JHwgKECnMKF1UM&tbnid=OGNR_FvHCSw6dM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimg4.joyreactor.com%2Fpics%2Fpost%2Ffunny-pictures-auto-Game-of-Thrones-hodor-387334.jpeg&ei=rpjNUdI3x_3gA5njgMAP&psig=AFQjCNG6VfwLUcpabLsKcNaSwNWepW5qww&ust=1372514862034260)
I remember buying the Kindle Touch, only to have the backlit one appear two months later. The pain still hurts to this day.
EDIT: My MB has an optical out, should I forego USB, or would the latter be better sonically?
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Please use a valid pain scale to show us how much pain are you currently experiencing.
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They are more likely to offer upgrades to this line than flat out replace it.
You can ALWAYS re-sell this stuff as it is good Schitt.
If it meets your needs right now, and falls in your budget, I don't think you can go very wrong with it.
Go for it!
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You ever watch Maury, and a guy finds out two of the three babies he's being accused of fathering ARE actually his? About that much hurting.
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Go for it, seriously speaking, Schiit is not earning crazy much from the Bifrost and the Asgard 2 is HUGE value for the price!
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I'm really thinking about it. My C4s should be back within 1-2 months, hopefully I'll have decided by then. I just spent $1100 on a new PC last Xmas, though haven't had new PC or audio equipment (except the C4s) in many years. Also once the crazy consumes me whole, I may not be able to enjoy music and such anymore. And no, I'm not kidding.
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You would think that after Resonessence released info about the new versions of the Concero that current owners would be jumping ship to get ready for the new units. I haven't really seen any pop up for sale! Maybe I have to wait until they are actually available.
The executor of my estate will sell you mine after I'm gone. :)p13
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It gets even more interesting, noticing some comments that they would stick with the regular over the HD or HP if they had the choice, myself included. Too soon to tell but wondering if Resonessence is maybe stretching too far trying to fit into these different segments the way they have.
-The HD has the latest 9018-2m but no headphone out. -> "I am Looking for an upgrade over the proven Concero, probably more in favor of DSD functionality"
-The HP also has the 9018-2m but loses the DAC only part of the equation with no RCA outs and slightly less measurements-wise. -> "I am looking for a portable solution"
-The regular only really loses out on DSD playback and HP out and having the cheaper ESS chip which may or may not have been implemented as well in the new models.
I appreciate that they retained the bridge functionality of the new models but the higher price has me shying away until we get some impressions; who knows maybe they indeed will be a huge step up from the regular.
As someone who has shopped for DACs way too much and is not too technical at the end of the day I would tend to veer towards DACs that have beefy power supplies and are big and heavy as price is going up. I know, I gotta get with the times. :spank:
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(http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&docid=JHwgKECnMKF1UM&tbnid=OGNR_FvHCSw6dM:&ved=0CAUQjBwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fimg4.joyreactor.com%2Fpics%2Fpost%2Ffunny-pictures-auto-Game-of-Thrones-hodor-387334.jpeg&ei=rpjNUdI3x_3gA5njgMAP&psig=AFQjCNG6VfwLUcpabLsKcNaSwNWepW5qww&ust=1372514862034260)
I remember buying the Kindle Touch, only to have the backlit one appear two months later. The pain still hurts to this day.
EDIT: My MB has an optical out, should I forego USB, or would the latter be better sonically?
No, optical out from a motherboard will be worse than anything else. Use USB and maybe consider adding the PPA Studio USB card which is half the price of the Sotm ($169), and from what I hear, sounds better.
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IME the optical out of a motherboard will work in a pinch but probably not ideal, use coaxial over optical. The spdif out of a dedicated soundcard is probably better yet, some decent ones can be had cheap. A good USB implementation is going to be optimal though, I know asynchronous usb is the way to go these days but nothing wrong with good adaptive implementation either; could save you some cash monies.
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Alright, so if I get the bifrost, get the USB. I need some more USB ports on my PC.
EDIT: Anyone have experience with the upgraded bifrost and a concero? I'm looking at the discussion/review thread on H-fi.
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It gets even more interesting, noticing some comments that they would stick with the regular over the HD or HP if they had the choice, myself included. Too soon to tell but wondering if Resonessence is maybe stretching too far trying to fit into these different segments the way they have.
-The HD has the latest 9018-2m but no headphone out. -> "I am Looking for an upgrade over the proven Concero, probably more in favor of DSD functionality"
-The HP also has the 9018-2m but loses the DAC only part of the equation with no RCA outs and slightly less measurements-wise. -> "I am looking for a portable solution"
-The regular only really loses out on DSD playback and HP out and having the cheaper ESS chip which may or may not have been implemented as well in the new models.
I appreciate that they retained the bridge functionality of the new models but the higher price has me shying away until we get some impressions; who knows maybe they indeed will be a huge step up from the regular.
As someone who has shopped for DACs way too much and is not too technical at the end of the day I would tend to veer towards DACs that have beefy power supplies and are big and heavy as price is going up. I know, I gotta get with the times. :spank:
I have the original Concero and it exceeded expectations for me. I haven't owned better DACs so I can't compare up the chain, but it was easily worth the money for the improvements in sound that I got. I also love the form factor. I am champing at the bit to get the HD, but I don't care about DSD. So if part of the premium is for DSD, I'm concerned that the new chip and implementation won't make enough of a difference to justify another $300. Might make more sense to keep saving up to jump into a different racket all together (maybe Yggdrasil next year).
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Is the concero a fairly neutral sounding DAC, or does it lean towards warmth? If those words still holding meaning in the modern audio age.
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Lavry DA11 impressions up: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1047.msg27309.html#msg27309
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What sort of USB cable does the Bifrost use? Monoprice link would be appreciated.
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What sort of USB cable does the Bifrost use? Monoprice link would be appreciated.
Bifrost has a standard USB 2.0 B port. Use any cable that strikes your fancy.
Don't know anything about monoprice cables. I use a WireWorld Starlight with the Hilo. It was a noticeable upgrade from the $50 Kimber USB cable. Yes, USB cables matter.
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Yes, USB cables matter.
Isn't USB a packet based transmission protocol with error correction algorithms? Provided the cable is good enough- shielded and beaded; it should either work perfectly or cut out when there's too much resending going on for damaged or missing packages.
Is this different from the transmission mode used for file transfer to storage devices? If not then why isn't there a slew of damaged files on external hdd's from using plain-Jane cables?
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Er.. I meant like the connector type. Male, female, micro, mini, square, etc.
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Square. Usb bee.
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This? http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030301&p_id=8617&seq=1&format=2
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Yes! I'd still like some ferrite beads but most likely it'll be fine as it is.
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Are those like magic pebbles except taken anally?
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This? http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=103&cp_id=10303&cs_id=1030301&p_id=8617&seq=1&format=2
That'll work, but do you really need three meters of cable? The Book of Conventional USB Wisdom, Chapter 1, Verse 17 says USB cables should be no longer than necessary, because I don't remember why but I read it somewhere on the Internet so it must be true..
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I have limited space to my left (which is where my PC tower is), so I might want a long cable to snake around my computer desk to the right, where there's room for dac/amp placement.
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Yes, USB cables matter.
Isn't USB a packet based transmission protocol with error correction algorithms? Provided the cable is good enough- shielded and beaded; it should either work perfectly or cut out when there's too much resending going on for damaged or missing packages.
Is this different from the transmission mode used for file transfer to storage devices? If not then why isn't there a slew of damaged files on external hdd's from using plain-Jane cables?
It can be, but it's not when you're talking about audio streaming via USB. When you connect something like a printer or a thumb drive, data is sent in blocks and each block is checked for any errors. When you connect a USB > S/Pdif converter or a USB DAC, data is sent in isochronous mode, real time, with no error correction. Isochronous IS sensitive to things like reflections due to impedance mismatches, electrical noise, etc. That's how one USB cable can sound different from another, while at the same time both cables can transmit perfect data to an external hard drive. It's a different process.
It's recommended that USB cables be fairly short for the same reason as S/Pdif cables - reflections. But not too short. The generally accepted wisdom is that 1.5M sounds best for both S/Pdif and USB, but a 3M cable is not the end of the world. If you need something like 5M that's a different can of worms. The maximum length of "generic" style cables is around 15 feet before they start to degrade, and some do so more than others. Some of the high-end USB cables can go much further without an an active signal booster.
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so I think I just suck at searching but is there a non-sucky but cheap way to connect my macbook (mid 2007) to an SPDIF DAC?
I don't even know if it has SPDIF built in into it or if it sucks more than any other solution tbh. but I really like Assemblage and Parasound R2R DAC's and they're not very hard to come by here... friend has 3 right now and is looking to sell one, but don't want it to be too expensive to just connect it and get good sound.
USB to SPDIF seems either really expensive or just cheap but really awful?
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so I think I just suck at searching but is there a non-sucky but cheap way to connect my macbook (mid 2007) to an SPDIF DAC?
I don't even know if it has SPDIF built in into it or if it sucks more than any other solution tbh. but I really like Assemblage and Parasound R2R DAC's and they're not very hard to come by here... friend has 3 right now and is looking to sell one, but don't want it to be too expensive to just connect it and get good sound.
USB to SPDIF seems either really expensive or just cheap but really awful?
Some folks seem to quite like the Audio-GD DI-V3 converter which starts at $150. There's also the Lindemann USB-DDC and Luxman U-100R which are both available for under $300. Musical Fidelity is in the process of rolling out new V-series components, so you can now get the old V-Link 192 converter new for $200.
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Some folks seem to quite like the Audio-GD DI-V3 converter which starts at $150. There's also the Lindemann USB-DDC and Luxman U-100R which are both available for under $300. Musical Fidelity is in the process of rolling out new V-series components, so you can now get the old V-Link 192 converter new for $200.
that's not toooo bad... is there any pros and cons that you know of with each of these devices?
which one would be the top recommendation? like is it worth spending 2 times as much as the Audio-GD one? I can't really test these out so it's a bit confusing.
reading a lot of subjective impressions just confuses me even more usually, no idea where to start here... :D
thanks!
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/Kirosia/Pancakes.png)
Last big purchase for the year (excluding storage hard drives/if shit breaks). Just hope I notice a difference in sound with phones and speakers (very likely). At least looking at my near-empty bank account will help motivate me with the current jobs search. YOLO
If a time-bomb inside my PC tower explodes and shorts the DAC, is that covered under warranty? I have many enemies.
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Welcome to the waiting room. Hope you like fingernails.
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Schiit's gettin real!
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I'm already getting buyer's remorse, but I always succumb to that for every purchase. Would you believe that I keep most of my money inside a shoe box so that I can't spend it on frivolous things online? This morning I caught a scare, thinking that I had misplaced about 1K of savings.
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Calm down, Kiro.
From Jon Iverson's review in the new issue of Stereophile:
"In fact, the Bifrost has the highest ratio of value to price of any product I've reviewed."
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It's funny, I spent $300 on a PS3 and move set I don't use, a baratza grinder and solis espresso machine costing another $300 which I also don't use, and yet I fret over audio equipment. Which I partake in frequently, at least for the first few years. (Haven't touched the SR-71 since I ran out of batteries) It's likely my history of buying pricey crap and not using it that makes me hesitant to indulge myself in anything new.
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Supposing that it competes with a $1000 DAC, the ratio of value to price of the bitfrost is $1000/$519 = 1.92? Meeeeeeh!
jkjk.
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If I duct-tape two bifrosts together, will that make the ratio closer to 4.0 or is there some exponential math business I'll never understand?
(Kiro failed high school algebra)
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It's funny, I spent $300 on a PS3 and move set I don't use, a baratza grinder and solis espresso machine costing another $300 which I also don't use, and yet I fret over audio equipment.
Great, now I'm picturing you wrecking the inside of an astrovan playing Everybody Dance while nursing a sippy cup filled with highly caffeinated beverage.
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I have no idea where my espresso machine is. A few months ago it was sitting next to the sink, and then, I guess because of so much inattention- I'm only one man after all- it was gone.
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Some folks seem to quite like the Audio-GD DI-V3 converter which starts at $150. There's also the Lindemann USB-DDC and Luxman U-100R which are both available for under $300. Musical Fidelity is in the process of rolling out new V-series components, so you can now get the old V-Link 192 converter new for $200.
that's not toooo bad... is there any pros and cons that you know of with each of these devices?
which one would be the top recommendation? like is it worth spending 2 times as much as the Audio-GD one? I can't really test these out so it's a bit confusing.
reading a lot of subjective impressions just confuses me even more usually, no idea where to start here... :D
thanks!
The Audio-GD starts at $150, but you have the option of spending another $20 on a clock upgrade, plus the $75 power supply option. The Lindemann, Luxman and MF are all powered by the USB port. You can still feed them better power, but it's more complicated and will likely cost you quite a bit more than $75 to do unless you plan to roll your own 5V battery.
As far as sound goes, the $245, fully upgrades DI-V3 some folks have said is very good. But then some folks say a lot of things, particularly about Audio-GD products, so take that with a big grain of salt. The V-link 192 is a solid product for $200. The Lindemann and Luxman, dunno. They aren't that common.
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The Audio-GD starts at $150, but you have the option of spending another $20 on a clock upgrade, plus the $75 power supply option. The Lindemann, Luxman and MF are all powered by the USB port. You can still feed them better power, but it's more complicated and will likely cost you quite a bit more than $75 to do unless you plan to roll your own 5V battery.
As far as sound goes, the $245, fully upgrades DI-V3 some folks have said is very good. But then some folks say a lot of things, particularly about Audio-GD products, so take that with a big grain of salt. The V-link 192 is a solid product for $200. The Lindemann and Luxman, dunno. They aren't that common.
ah, cool. maybe I shouldn't look too much into the Luxman and Lindemann for now...
I will see if there is anyone non-dumbo that I share opinions on other products with has tried the Audio-GD one first. PSU and clock upgrades sure sounds like fun, but hopefully they actually do improve the product.
by the way, is there any DIY option out there for this purpose? if it would save me any money at all. :P
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Not sure if I fall into the non-dumbo category, however I do have the ADG DI-V2-DSP with which I have a love/hate relationship. Due to the shitty drivers the USB receiver chip works with only 1 in 3 usb cables and only if the stars are right. After two weeks in direct [Latvian] summer sunlight the anodizing went from black to elegant brown. However when it works the sound is quite good.
I'm lucky that I didn't have to pay for it.
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ah, cool. maybe I shouldn't look too much into the Luxman and Lindemann for now...
I will see if there is anyone non-dumbo that I share opinions on other products with has tried the Audio-GD one first. PSU and clock upgrades sure sounds like fun, but hopefully they actually do improve the product.
by the way, is there any DIY option out there for this purpose? if it would save me any money at all. :P
Yeah when the Lindemann came out it was limited to 24/96 and cost like $600. It's now 192 capable and costs half as much, so that at least is an improvement. It's still a pretty basic design though, I'm seeing what appears to be a single clock and I don't know how much regulation they can fit on a board like that. I would probably pass.
(http://www.lindemann-audio.de/uploads/tx_imagecycle/USB-DDC-24-192_chipset.jpg)
The Luxman uses the Tenor TE7022, which is older tech limited to 24/96. I'd probably pass on that also. My suggestion would probably be for the V-link 192. There shouldn't be any Audio-GD type build or reliability problems, and it's comparable to converters in the $400-500 range. You also get the XMOS chip and two discrete oscillators for 44 and 48 sample based sample rates instead of clock synthesis.
(http://www.audiostream.com/images/1213vlink3.jpg)
I don't think there are any DIY S/Pdif converter kits, at least I haven't seen any. Most folks just mod existing designs. The first John Kenny Hiface mod was basically just a battery wired directly to the clocks. There was also a guy on HF awhile back who was replacing the clocks in the Anedio U2 with very high-end Crysteks.
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There is this - http://luckit.biz/new/?tcp_product=waveio
(http://luckit.biz/new/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/waveIO2.png)
Also the Amanero board can be used for USB->IIS http://amanero.com/
(http://amanero.com/IMGP1175.JPG)
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I have no idea where my espresso machine is. A few months ago it was sitting next to the sink, and then, I guess because of so much inattention- I'm only one man after all- it was gone.
You have a sink in your Astrovan?
Quit being a freak, you know you're going to love your Schitt.
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That WaveIO board is the best of the look in terms of specing imo. Combine that with an awesome PS and you are good to go. For those looking for TOTL from diy, you could add Ian's SPDIF/I2S FIFO buffer to reduce jitter increase from isolation.
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iirc Sachu bought one and played around with it - might be worth asking him ..dB
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yes indeed I did. The Wave IO board is very much worth the money and I use it exclusively with the Assemblage D2D+DAC3.1 in the stat rig. Noticeable improvement in quality.
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this is looking really good. the XMOS WaveIO looks great in every regard.
I'll see what I can do with it!
I'm assuming it's not possible to fit it into an Assemblage 1.5/2.0 though? I'll have to build a little box for it right? which would be good for PSU reasons and such.
hope it's not rude to ask but is it possible to get details on your setup with this WaveIO card? you have a PSU and all that?
thanks a lot!! this is exciting.
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I have no idea where my espresso machine is. A few months ago it was sitting next to the sink, and then, I guess because of so much inattention- I'm only one man after all- it was gone.
hahahahhaha
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Got the Bifrost/Asgard, setting it up. The cases have some marks, the Asgard's in particular has a a small cut in the circular opening around the volume knob. Par for the course, no? If it's a common thing due to the case-making process, I have no real qualms.
EDIT: About to try the headphone out once I wipe the sweat from my face. When using the Asgard as a preamp, do I keep the volume control at max, or is there a way to bypass it?
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I'd complain about a mar in the case new out of the box.
Not sure if I misunderstand but if the Asgard is a pre-amp you want to keep volume minimum on the Asgard then raise it as you need to....
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If I keep the volume low, My powered monitors have to be put near max to hear anything.
I think I've read that the Schiit chassis may have physical imperfections due to the machining process or something. It's not a huge deal, unless I happen to be the only owner to have them.
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Well then the speakers themselves have their own amp + volume as well as the Asgard's amp + volume. IME a pre-amp is used with a dedicated power amp (which has no volume control) direct into non-powered speakers. In your setup it probably doesn't matter but I'd probably plug speakers straight into source in that situation.
Of the imperfection take a pixture and post it, I'm sure Jason will see it eventually!
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This is the main one, although I haven't gone through with a fine tooth raccoon (for sanity reasons). Pic is blurry, but it cuts all the way to the rim of the circle.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v665/Kirosia/Cut.png)
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Meh, that doesn't look too bad. Your call!
I have OCD.
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I'm practically OCD. But like I said, if it's a normal thing, not worth fretting over. I'm infinitely more worried of performance-related issues.
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Strap some headphones on that sweaty head and listen, stop lookin' at it.
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Well, it definitely sounds better than my motherboard. I think. I can't be sure. Well, it definitely doesn't sound worse than my motherboard.
I didn't line the stick-on feet perfectly. This will not end well for my already damaged psyche.
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You need an audio file motherboard!
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If I had known better, I would've considered an MB with a coax, because that's like awesome right?
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Along with $500 Amarra. Jep. That one.
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I has Windoze Seven, like the Kevin Spacey.
Stick-on rubber nibble feet aren't permanent right? In case I need to remove/re-adjust them for any reason.
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If I had known better, I would've considered an MB with a coax, because that's like awesome right?
Nope, even worse. Take the poor quality, hyper jittery output of an optical motherboard output and add ten tons of electronic garbage and you've got the coaxial output.
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For some reason I thought you meant macbook, hence the Amarra jab sorry :) usb to the bitfrost is still going to be your best bet. You can clean up the USB power etc. but that's going to cost $ and cause headache.
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I has Windoze Seven, like the Kevin Spacey.
Stick-on rubber nibble feet aren't permanent right? In case I need to remove/re-adjust them for any reason.
Try running Fidelizer with Foobar in WASAPI or ASIO output mode. The feet should come off easily enough, and if there's residue left you can get rid of that with a bit of Goo-gone or maybe even Windex if there's not that much of it. If you want much higher quality feet without spending too much try some Herbies.
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Remind me never to let Kirosia see any of my DIY projects lol. If that's what you consider an imperfection, then my wood/metalwork is an abomination.
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Kirosia has serious issues, this was established when he first started ranting about making Taylor Swift his mannequin bride (cue Jefferson Starship).
I have no idea what I was thinking when placing the feet on. They're neither symmetrical or sensical or ironic in that kitsch sort. Guess maybe I was afraid of scratching the chassis. Running through Wasapi (push), event didn't work. Is that alright?
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If I keep the volume low, My powered monitors have to be put near max to hear anything.
Put the Asgard to max. Play a "loud" song. Turn the powered monitors up to your loudest sane listening level. Leave the speaker knob as is and now control volume through the Asgard.
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Yeah standard WASAPI is fine. You can also try Kernel Streaming which is technically superior but may or may not work.
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Hey dave, how do you feel about older TOTL dacs. I've been looking at getting a mk2 dCS Elgar Plus, skip all the other stuff and just go straight to the top with a discrete top of the line model, sure they don't have usb, but I can just get a converter for that. You can get them for not too much on Audiogon.
Im looking for a new dac to use with the KGSSHV and Sr-009s, for the longest time I was just going to get an AudioGD Master 7, cause I love that dac, but the Yggdrasil and the dCS have me questioning my decision.
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Hey dave, how do you feel about older TOTL dacs. I've been looking at getting a mk2 dCS Elgar Plus, skip all the other stuff and just go straight to the top with a discrete top of the line model, sure they don't have usb, but I can just get a converter for that. You can get them for not too much on Audiogon.
Do you know what the MK2 added? I know the original Elgar Plus, and it's not as impressive as you might think. Sample rates higher than 24/96 require dual AES/EBU, and I think that the Weiss INT-202 is the only converter that can provide that. If you want to use the FireWire input for DSD, you need an outboard masterclock, and it may still not work without the Verdi transport. Jitter from the Verdi to the EP via FireWire is in the 150ps range which was impressive in 2003, not impressive today. Via dual AES, jitter is closer to 600ps, which is crapola. Unless the MK2 is a MAJOR advancement over the original Elgar Plus, I'd pass, it's no match for a Debussy or Paganini.
The upcoming Schitt reference DAC definitely has me interested, and I still need to hear the Hex, Vega, and Luxman DA-06,
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Hey dave, how do you feel about older TOTL dacs. I've been looking at getting a mk2 dCS Elgar Plus, skip all the other stuff and just go straight to the top with a discrete top of the line model, sure they don't have usb, but I can just get a converter for that. You can get them for not too much on Audiogon.
Do you know what the MK2 added? I know the original Elgar Plus, and it's not as impressive as you might think. Sample rates higher than 24/96 require dual AES/EBU, and I think that the Weiss INT-202 is the only converter that can provide that. If you want to use the FireWire input for DSD, you need an outboard masterclock, and it may still not work without the Verdi transport. Jitter from the Verdi to the EP via FireWire is in the 150ps range which was impressive in 2003, not impressive today. Via dual AES, jitter is closer to 600ps, which is crapola. Unless the MK2 is a MAJOR advancement over the original Elgar Plus, I'd pass, it's no match for a Debussy or Paganini.
The upcoming Schitt reference DAC definitely has me interested, and I still need to hear the Hex, Vega, and Luxman DA-06,
Im waiting for another response beyond just that the mk2 sounds better, to see what they changed. Up until now all I had read on the forums was that they updated the inputs, but it seems like more changes were made.
Have you heard the Elgar Plus? because higher bitrates/sample rates dont really mean a whole lot to me, 99.99% of what I listen to is redbook anyways, and I would just use a low jitter usb/spdif converter.
Id certainly hope the Debussy or Paganini would better it, but you can't pick them up for 3900 on audiogon ;)
Though I still want to see what Schitt did with the Yggdrasil, Im convinced it's going to be something similar to the TotalDac, but cheaper, and if that's the case it will be pretty game changing as well...
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Im waiting for another response beyond just that the mk2 sounds better, to see what they changed. Up until now all I had read on the forums was that they updated the inputs, but it seems like more changes were made.
Have you heard the Elgar Plus? because higher bitrates/sample rates dont really mean a whole lot to me, 99.99% of what I listen to is redbook anyways, and I would just use a low jitter usb/spdif converter.
Id certainly hope the Debussy or Paganini would better it, but you can't pick them up for 3900 on audiogon ;)
Though I still want to see what Schitt did with the Yggdrasil, Im convinced it's going to be something similar to the TotalDac, but cheaper, and if that's the case it will be pretty game changing as well...
I haven't heard the Elgar in years. It sounded good from what I remember, but I don't have any frame to compare it to a modern DAC. The noise floor and THD are definitely comparable to modern DACs, (as opposed to the original Elgar which is really only equivalent to about a 20-bit DAC) but I worry about the level of intrinsic jitter from the receiver and internal clock. That's something that has steadily marched forward in the last ten years. One thing I have heard is that the Elgar responds much better to being fed 24/96 than 16/44, which is why you were supposed to use the Purcell as part of the stack. That's easy enough to do in software though if you are using a computer as a source.
Personally I would be more inclined to consider the Vega which seems to be quite the little superstar right now (aside from the pedestrian digital volume control, but you don't have to use that). It supports DXD and DoP over what seems to be at least a fairly well implemented USB input. I don't know how it stacks up against an Off-Ramp, but they were at least smart enough to use isolation and a complete internal supply, which is a lot better than Meitner.
I really doubt the Schitt DAC is using individual resistors like the TotalDAC. That would be way too complex to build for the price they are asking. It must be some kind of on-chip R2R solution like Metrum.
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Im waiting for another response beyond just that the mk2 sounds better, to see what they changed. Up until now all I had read on the forums was that they updated the inputs, but it seems like more changes were made.
Have you heard the Elgar Plus? because higher bitrates/sample rates dont really mean a whole lot to me, 99.99% of what I listen to is redbook anyways, and I would just use a low jitter usb/spdif converter.
Id certainly hope the Debussy or Paganini would better it, but you can't pick them up for 3900 on audiogon ;)
Though I still want to see what Schitt did with the Yggdrasil, Im convinced it's going to be something similar to the TotalDac, but cheaper, and if that's the case it will be pretty game changing as well...
I haven't heard the Elgar in years. It sounded good from what I remember, but I don't have any frame to compare it to a modern DAC. The noise floor and THD are definitely comparable to modern DACs, (as opposed to the original Elgar which is really only equivalent to about a 20-bit DAC) but I worry about the level of intrinsic jitter from the receiver and internal clock. That's something that has steadily marched forward in the last ten years. One thing I have heard is that the Elgar responds much better to being fed 24/96 than 16/44, which is why you were supposed to use the Purcell as part of the stack. That's easy enough to do in software though if you are using a computer as a source.
Personally I would be more inclined to consider the Vega which seems to be quite the little superstar right now (aside from the pedestrian digital volume control, but you don't have to use that). It supports DXD and DoP over what seems to be at least a fairly well implemented USB input. I don't know how it stacks up against an Off-Ramp, but they were at least smart enough to use isolation and a complete internal supply, which is a lot better than Meitner.
I really doubt the Schitt DAC is using individual resistors like the TotalDAC. That would be way too complex to build for the price they are asking. It must be some kind of on-chip R2R solution like Metrum.
Well, not very many dacs period have the noise floor to actually be able to resolve 24 bits at all, and from the stereophile measurements the elgar plus doesnt either, though its measurements are still better than most dacs today I would say. Yeah intrinsic jitter of the receiver and the internal clock is something to think about, I just think that the benefits of the ring dac over something like a 9018 are going to be enough to make up for that in alot of ways, jitter alone does not a good dac make. I was looking, if i went the elgar plus, route to getting a purcell as well. in the stereophile review they said the elgar plus didnt really click till they set the upsampling to 24/192, not just 24/96, though that might have mostly been a limitation of the purcell, so going the computer upsampling route is something i had considered as well...though im not sure how real time upsampling in computers compares to the hardware upsampling of the purcell. Something like arc prediction in XXHE seems pretty legit, but I dont know about the rest of it, and Im not really willing to use that software, cause if I was I would just get a Phasure NOS dac and be done with it.
The Vega seems like a FOTM type of product though, I havent seen it really get compared to any of the big hitters, at least not by people that I would trust to do a good job of it. And like I said I don't care about DoP and DXD, these are all just features manufacturers feel the need to put in there so they can check it off on a checklist or something, though the well implemented USB would be nice.
I would also like to hear the Hex, and I think I will be able to in the future, I think Preproman is going to be getting one at some point, and Ill check it out then.
Well, Schitt already said they weren't using an off the shelf chip, so they either designed an IC themselves and got it made, which i doubt, or they are going the discrete route. And I think it would be possible using SMD parts, and factory production to meet their price point...we'll have to see.
Anyways, it's good to hear a kind of opposite view point on the elgar plus, I'd kind of talked myself into thinking it would be awesome to get one for so cheap, since newer models had come out. Oh and I heard back about the differences between the mk1 and mk2, all he said he could remember was that it has the v6 Ring DAC instead of the v5 Ring DAC that was in the mk1, which had significantly better stereo separation i guess
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Im looking for a new dac to use with the KGSSHV and Sr-009s, for the longest time I was just going to get an AudioGD Master 7, cause I love that dac, but the Yggdrasil and the dCS have me questioning my decision.
I'm really tempted by the Master 7, but I'm still scared because AG-D used to have some guy called Edwin who would lie to customers about availability just to notch up get sales numbers. This was the time when the great royal King-Wa, the most respectable and humble man on the planet according to several HF fanbois, was talking up his company improving its management processes and sending their people to business skool.
The fact that AG-D seemed to change or tweak their TOTL design 57 times in the last two years kind of freaks me out too. But still, very tempted by the Master 7. Just can't get over their amateurishness of the past.
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Im looking for a new dac to use with the KGSSHV and Sr-009s, for the longest time I was just going to get an AudioGD Master 7, cause I love that dac, but the Yggdrasil and the dCS have me questioning my decision.
I'm really tempted by the Master 7, but I'm still scared because AG-D used to have some guy called Edwin who would lie to customers about availability just to notch up get sales numbers. This was the time when the great royal King-Wa, the most respectable and humble man on the planet according to several HF fanbois, was talking up his company improving its management processes and sending their people to business skool.
The fact that AG-D seemed to change or tweak their TOTL design 57 times in the last two years kind of freaks me out too. But still, very tempted by the Master 7. Just can't get over their amateurishness of the past.
Whenever I order anything from Audio-GD, I've always just dealt with Kingwa directly through his own email address. Much easier to get the technical information I wanted, and you know you aren't gonna get yanked around by someone that doesn't know what they're talking about.
I think alot of that has to do with his rapidly changing the USB implementation, due to finding new and better chips to use. Now that he has the Via chip, which by all accounts is very good, I think he will probably stay the same for a while. The analog parts of his boards don't really change at all. Just look at his whole master series, all of it, including the master 7 hasn't changed in over a year. And even when he does update the digital sections, its completely possible to update to the newest stuff yourself, alot of people just aren't willing to do so, and buy the new gear instead. I don't see myself as an audio gd fanboy, but I do think that he designs great gear, for pretty ridiculously low prices considering the design work that he puts in, for his top of the line stuff at least. I won't really speak to his lower tier offerings since I haven't really heard them. I do really like the Master 1/3 combo that I have to drive my MMMicroOnes.
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I need KingWa's direct e-mail then. I think I've since heard that Edwin was supposedly punished accordingly.
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I need KingWa's direct e-mail then. I think I've since heard that Edwin was supposedly punished accordingly.
Ask and you shall receive king-wa@hotmail.com :)
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Shouldn't we be getting a DAC update from Tari soon? popcorn
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Oh yeah!! popcorn Maybe the MSB rode off on the Electra unicorn. ;D
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The Vega seems like a FOTM type of product though, I havent seen it really get compared to any of the big hitters, at least not by people that I would trust to do a good job of it. And like I said I don't care about DoP and DXD, these are all just features manufacturers feel the need to put in there so they can check it off on a checklist or something, though the well implemented USB would be nice.
I would also like to hear the Hex, and I think I will be able to in the future, I think Preproman is going to be getting one at some point, and Ill check it out then.
Well, Schitt already said they weren't using an off the shelf chip, so they either designed an IC themselves and got it made, which i doubt, or they are going the discrete route. And I think it would be possible using SMD parts, and factory production to meet their price point...we'll have to see.
Anyways, it's good to hear a kind of opposite view point on the elgar plus, I'd kind of talked myself into thinking it would be awesome to get one for so cheap, since newer models had come out. Oh and I heard back about the differences between the mk1 and mk2, all he said he could remember was that it has the v6 Ring DAC instead of the v5 Ring DAC that was in the mk1, which had significantly better stereo separation i guess
What I meant was that the original Elgar was in the -110dB range which is well below what modern DACs are capable of. I agree that low jitter alone doesn't make for a good DAC. Jitter rejection seems to be rather lousy though, but if you're using a very low jitter converter like the OR5, it may not be a problem. If the Elgar also needs 192 to sound best, using the Purcell with it would solve the dual AES issue. You could feed the Purcell 16/44 via S/Pdif, and the have it output 24/192 (or preferably 176.4) to the EP via dual AES. I've heard top-level D-S DACs take down the Debussy, so I don't think there's enough magic in the ring DAC alone to beat anything with a Sabre or one of the other top level D-S DACs in it. The EP as a $4K DAC vs. other ~$4K DACs like the Vega, Hex, or Invicta is an interesting proposition. If the EP has to be part of a $6K or $7K setup to be worthwhile though, then IMO it's a lot less interesting.
I don't think anyone would claim that the Vega can match $6-10K DACs. DACs under $4K though may have a very hard time keeping up. I definitely would like to see more about it. An 82 femtosecond clock (if it really is that accurate) is pretty cool, and they seem to have put a lot of effort into the filter design. It's definitely not a case of slapping a few BB op-amps in a box and calling it a day ala Arcam or Musical Fidelity. If you're looking at spending $6K+, you really should consider the Empirical Overdrive, which does take down $6-10K DACs, and has perhaps the best implemented USB input short of an MSB DAC.
How is the QC at Audio-GD these days? What I have seen in the past has not been particularly impressive. Can the feet actually touch another metal component now?
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Hey Dave, didn't you ask steve from empirical audio about the total DAC. I seem to recall something about him saying that they used the wrong resistors (vishays?). I am assuming if schitt is using r2r theybsould be using something more economical and appropriate to the task, which could explain a difference in price.
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The Vega seems like a FOTM type of product though, I havent seen it really get compared to any of the big hitters, at least not by people that I would trust to do a good job of it. And like I said I don't care about DoP and DXD, these are all just features manufacturers feel the need to put in there so they can check it off on a checklist or something, though the well implemented USB would be nice.
I would also like to hear the Hex, and I think I will be able to in the future, I think Preproman is going to be getting one at some point, and Ill check it out then.
Well, Schitt already said they weren't using an off the shelf chip, so they either designed an IC themselves and got it made, which i doubt, or they are going the discrete route. And I think it would be possible using SMD parts, and factory production to meet their price point...we'll have to see.
Anyways, it's good to hear a kind of opposite view point on the elgar plus, I'd kind of talked myself into thinking it would be awesome to get one for so cheap, since newer models had come out. Oh and I heard back about the differences between the mk1 and mk2, all he said he could remember was that it has the v6 Ring DAC instead of the v5 Ring DAC that was in the mk1, which had significantly better stereo separation i guess
What I meant was that the original Elgar was in the -110dB range which is well below what modern DACs are capable of. I agree that low jitter alone doesn't make for a good DAC. Jitter rejection seems to be rather lousy though, but if you're using a very low jitter converter like the OR5, it may not be a problem. If the Elgar also needs 192 to sound best, using the Purcell with it would solve the dual AES issue. You could feed the Purcell 16/44 via S/Pdif, and the have it output 24/192 (or preferably 176.4) to the EP via dual AES. I've heard top-level D-S DACs take down the Debussy, so I don't think there's enough magic in the ring DAC alone to beat anything with a Sabre or one of the other top level D-S DACs in it. The EP as a $4K DAC vs. other ~$4K DACs like the Vega, Hex, or Invicta is an interesting proposition. If the EP has to be part of a $6K or $7K setup to be worthwhile though, then IMO it's a lot less interesting.
I don't think anyone would claim that the Vega can match $6-10K DACs. DACs under $4K though may have a very hard time keeping up. I definitely would like to see more about it. An 82 femtosecond clock (if it really is that accurate) is pretty cool, and they seem to have put a lot of effort into the filter design. It's definitely not a case of slapping a few BB op-amps in a box and calling it a day ala Arcam or Musical Fidelity. If you're looking at spending $6K+, you really should consider the Empirical Overdrive, which does take down $6-10K DACs, and has perhaps the best implemented USB input short of an MSB DAC.
How is the QC at Audio-GD these days? What I have seen in the past has not been particularly impressive. Can the feet actually touch another metal component now?
I think you might have talked me out of the Elgar Plus at this point. I just liked the idea of buying a top of the line dac from a company like dCS, which I consider to be a very engineering focused company, up there with MSB. kind of wish MSB dacs came up used more often...
Having done some more reading about the Vega, it does appear to be a pretty good option, nothing but stellar reviews for it, and it does have alot of boxes checked off as far as buzzwords go.
Not that I'm considering spending 6k on a dac, but you talk alot about the Overdrive. Do you own one, or have you just done extensive listening to one like on loan or something? My main worry is that there seems to be alot of voodoo involved there, as far as not really talking about whats going on inside the DAC. Im not saying it can't sound amazing, just that Im cautious, I would have to be able to borrow one before I would get one...
Now if only more DAC companies had military discounts 8)
I know that my master 1 and 3 both came basically flawless physically. Preproman's Master 7 I think with 1 slight scuff/scratch on the top plate from what I remember, so I think the QC has improved quite a bit.
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Hey Dave, didn't you ask steve from empirical audio about the total DAC. I seem to recall something about him saying that they used the wrong resistors (vishays?). I am assuming if schitt is using r2r theybsould be using something more economical and appropriate to the task, which could explain a difference in price.
Yup. He wasn't particularly smitten with their design, also said the power supply was done wrong. Yeah I just can't imagine Schitt using hundreds of individual resistors like that for the price they are targeting. "Off the shelf" at this point pretty much means the TDA1543 or the PCM1704 which they aren't using, so just about anything else would qualify. Again if I had to guess I would say they are probably using a similar approach as Metrum.
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I think you might have talked me out of the Elgar Plus at this point. I just liked the idea of buying a top of the line dac from a company like dCS, which I consider to be a very engineering focused company, up there with MSB. kind of wish MSB dacs came up used more often...
Having done some more reading about the Vega, it does appear to be a pretty good option, nothing but stellar reviews for it, and it does have alot of boxes checked off as far as buzzwords go.
Not that I'm considering spending 6k on a dac, but you talk alot about the Overdrive. Do you own one, or have you just done extensive listening to one like on loan or something? My main worry is that there seems to be alot of voodoo involved there, as far as not really talking about whats going on inside the DAC. Im not saying it can't sound amazing, just that Im cautious, I would have to be able to borrow one before I would get one...
I understand the appeal. If they weren't so difficult to service I might even be interested in a Levinson 30.6, it was a hell of a DAC in its day. I do see a fair amount of MSB Platinum DAC 3s on Audiogon going for similar prices as the Elgar, but I've never heard that DAC personally.
The reaction to Auralic's first ARK MX+ DAC was a bit mixed, but the new one seems to be getting pretty much universal acclaim. Their claims of a "lossless" digital volume control seem to be bunk, but that's no different from any other DAC with a digital VC, none of them can stand up to a real linestage. It's definitely on my list of must listen DACs though.
My own experience with the Overdrive has only been at audio shows and small demos, but I've been blown away by it every time. The one thing Steve is really coy about is what DACs he's using. I'm pretty sure there are two of them in there, and they are delta-sigma. If I had to guess based on the sound it would be Analog Devices, but who knows. I'm pretty positive they aren't Sabres, but it could just as easily be two WM8741s, AKM4399s, or even PCM179xs. If it's the latter, it's by far the best PCM179x DAC I've ever heard. Ultimately it doesn't matter that much, the Overdrive delivers.
You've just gotta hear one. Several folks around here were very skeptical of the Off-Ramp until they heard what it can do.
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You've just gotta hear one. Several folks around here were very skeptical of the Off-Ramp until they heard what it can do.
So what you're saying is that purrin should borrow one and pit it against the rest of his dacs since he fell in love with the off ramp 5? This is an idea I can get behind :)p8
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I'm thinking about putting together one of the DACs from Beezar. Looks like there's 3 of them.
http://beezar.com/catalog/index.php
Any of you DAC gurus want to help me out?
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I'm not in much of a hurry to upgrade my DAC, as it seems like new stuff is coming out every other week.
I gotta admit though, I'm intrigued by the Metrum Hex just based on its name. I guess I should add it and the Auralic Vega to my list of considerations along with the new Invicta.
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I'm not in much of a hurry to upgrade my DAC, as it seems like new stuff is coming out every other week.
I gotta admit though, I'm intrigued by the Metrum Hex just based on its name. I guess I should add it and the Auralic Vega to my list of considerations along with the new Invicta.
The Hex is an interesting design. NOS, no filter, 16 stacked industrial R2R DACs that are 192 capable but seem to (from some reports anyway) truncate everything to 16-bit. The USB input is optional. It's a modified M2Tech Hiface OEM module that runs on an internal supply instead of bus power. From what I've read, it's comparable to very good converters like the Audiophilleo, but probably won't be able to stand up against the OR5 which is the same Hiface module but taken to the absolute nth degree. One thing I have heard about the Hex is that it sounds significantly better via balanced out as opposed to SE. With 16/44 material it rolls off at around 3dB at 20kHz.
The Vega is about as far in the opposite direction from that as you can go. It's a Sabre DAC that upsamples everything to 32/1.5Mhz, in some cases via their "Sanctuary" processor, and in some cases via the Sabre's own upsampler depending on the incoming sample rate. Interestingly the Vega's filter mode "4," which is the gentlest minimum phase type designed to eliminate ringing as much as possible also rolls off at around 3dB a 20kHz, and that's the one that everyone seems to prefer. The Vega's USB input is a self-powered XMOS design that then goes through a separate buffer. The performance is more of a question mark as I don't think anyone with a Vega has compared it to any S/Pdif converters.
http://www.auralic.com/download/flexible_filter_mode.pdf
(http://www.audiostream.com/images/32013hex3.jpg)
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/auralic5/6.png)
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Hmm, not to be too oversimplistic, but I'm not sure the PS in the Vega is what I'd want to find in my end game DAC. Looks good, but great?? Have to listen to it of course, but still...
I'd worry it's a minor upgrade or sidegrade to what I have now.
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Hmm, not to be too oversimplistic, but I'm not sure the PS in the Vega is what I'd want to find in my end game DAC. Looks good, but great?? Have to listen to it of course, but still...
I'd worry it's a minor upgrade or sidegrade to what I have now.
Yeah the basic PS design seems to stem from the ARK MX+, just with I think a larger transformer. (ARK MX+ top, Vega below). I would definitely prefer separate power supplies for analog and digital sections at the $3K+ level, or better yet a true dual mono setup, but my guess is most of the additional budget went to the temperature controlled clock and the other niceties. It's a tradeoff. The Cantata for example is far more impressive in terms of its PS design, but I would expect it to lose a fight against the Vega, sound wise its nothing spectacular.
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/auralic/purepower.jpg)
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/auralic5/open5.png)
(http://img1.audio.de/D-A-Wandler-Resolution-Audio-Cantata-MC-f630x378-ffffff-C-8a56eae-43177645.jpg)
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Hey Dave, you ever hear anything about the Rockna Audio Wavequest or the Audiobyte Audiomoph dacs? Made by a company that did a lot of design work for msb and ps audio. Just looking at them I am drawn to them on a gut level, which makes me want to get one. Plus I like trying companies no one else has yet, at least on the sites I frequent.
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The Hex is an interesting design. NOS, no filter, 16 stacked industrial R2R DACs that are 192 capable but seem to (from some reports anyway) truncate everything to 16-bit. The USB input is optional. It's a modified M2Tech Hiface OEM module that runs on an internal supply instead of bus power. From what I've read, it's comparable to very good converters like the Audiophilleo, but probably won't be able to stand up against the OR5 which is the same Hiface module but taken to the absolute nth degree. One thing I have heard about the Hex is that it sounds significantly better via balanced out as opposed to SE. With 16/44 material it rolls off at around 3dB at 20kHz.
They took 2 apples in the Duo and made it six apples in the Hex. It'll still taste like an apple... not taste like a starfruit (PCM1704) ^^
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Hey Dave, you ever hear anything about the Rockna Audio Wavequest or the Audiobyte Audiomoph dacs? Made by a company that did a lot of design work for msb and ps audio. Just looking at them I am drawn to them on a gut level, which makes me want to get one. Plus I like trying companies no one else has yet, at least on the sites I frequent.
I've heard of the Wavequest, but I've never read any reviews or listened to one. The MSB DAC modules are certainly tempting. The other one I know nothing about.
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Hey Dave, you ever hear anything about the Rockna Audio Wavequest or the Audiobyte Audiomoph dacs? Made by a company that did a lot of design work for msb and ps audio. Just looking at them I am drawn to them on a gut level, which makes me want to get one. Plus I like trying companies no one else has yet, at least on the sites I frequent.
I've heard of the Wavequest, but I've never read any reviews or listened to one. The MSB DAC modules are certainly tempting. The other one I know nothing about.
The other one is basically the same digital side as the wavequest, except they only upsample to 385 instead of 1.5 mhz, and that it uses 4 PCM 1704s, in a balanced configuration, instead of two of the msb modules. It's not really cheaper enough for me to get it instead of the wavequest I don't think though.
I agree about the msb modules though, that's what first got me excited. And all the digital stuff they are doing, along with a discrete output stage. Alot to like in there
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Yeah seems cool, very few manufacturers are doing anything with the MSB OEM modules. What's the price?
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Yeah seems cool, very few manufacturers are doing anything with the MSB OEM modules. What's the price?
The unimorph is 3000 euros and they don't actually make the Wavequest anymore, only the replacement the wavedream, which has numerous improvements I guess. And the Wavedream in single ended configuration(the Wavequest was only single ended, the Wavedream can be balanced I guess) is 4500 euros. I was gonna ask him about the cost for the balanced version.
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I'm really tempted by the Master 7, but I'm still scared because AG-D used to have some guy called Edwin who would lie to customers about availability just to notch up get sales numbers. This was the time when the great royal King-Wa, the most respectable and humble man on the planet according to several HF fanbois, was talking up his company improving its management processes and sending their people to business skool.
The fact that AG-D seemed to change or tweak their TOTL design 57 times in the last two years kind of freaks me out too. But still, very tempted by the Master 7. Just can't get over their amateurishness of the past.
Have a look at this PDF doc (313 pages, so make some coffee while it's loading...), scroll down to the Audio-gd chips.
http://www.sg-acoustics.ch/analogue_audio/ic_opamps/
If he made three discrete designs like that, I'm going to wildly speculate the discrete designs inside all of his DAC's are not too dissimilar.
A Russian forum measured one of his latest ES9018 DAC's, and the square-waves looked like some kind of killing spree at a Halloween festival.
Compare the Audio-gd products purely on an aesthetical level to something like the HOLO Audio T.rex, no comments.
http://www.hiendy.com/hififorum/forum.php?mod=viewthread&action=printable&tid=51176
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Another streamer from Sonore - this one is basically a super Squeezebox. Ethernet in, USB out with support for DSD...sort of. Runs from LMS.
http://www.sonore.us/index8.html
(http://www.sonore.us/Sonore-Orbiter-Internal.png)
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Wow. A bit pricey! Any reviews of that?
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Nope, I think they are still finishing the first batch of production units. I don't think the price is that outrageous, especially compared to some of the servers that sell for $3-5K that are basically just glorified computers, including a $150 Silverstone case.
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I'm not sure how many of you, if any, use dedicated sound cards for DAC purposes, but I just got my Onkyo SE-200PCI card installed last night. Got it for $125 used on eBay after reading really good things about it, which is pretty cheap for this card. Compared to my Auzentech Bravura, it's loaded with capacitors. Some of the design ideas behind it were interesting to me on paper, though I have no idea if they really work or are implemented well on the card.
It does sound pretty good, though I didn't try comparing it to my Bravura. I've read the Onkyo card has more of an "analog sound," but I honestly didn't hear any noticeable differences when I switched. But, again, I didn't compare with an A/B test and don't have golden ears to begin with. I do need to get a nicer RCA cable...I'm using a really cheap spare for now that's about as thin and basic as they come. It's especially not ideal given the amount of wires (power, audio, networking, etc.) that occupy the space behind my computer and up to the back of the receiver.
There is one thing I really love about the card already. The RCA out on the back runs at line level. Period. Adjusting the volume in Windows does absolutely nothing. The Bravura, on the other hand, was not line level. You'd have to keep the volume at 50 in Windows, otherwise it would run way too hot and distort (either due to the card itself or sources I hooked up to it...not sure).
I think the next step will be making sure I have the best PSU I can get to mitigate any grounding or noise issues that might come from it, if that is even really an issue in these situations. I might be solid as is.
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There is one thing I really love about the card already. The RCA out on the back runs at line level. Period. Adjusting the volume in Windows does absolutely nothing. The Bravura, on the other hand, was not line level. You'd have to keep the volume at 50 in Windows, otherwise it would run way too hot and distort (either due to the card itself or sources I hooked up to it...not sure).
I think the next step will be making sure I have the best PSU I can get to mitigate any grounding or noise issues that might come from it, if that is even really an issue in these situations. I might be solid as is.
You should be using kernel streaming out anyway, or at the very least, WASAPI or ASIO. Having the Windows sound mixer involved at any level is a no-no. Using a high-end Seasonic or something similar may make a small difference, but I doubt it will be noticeable enough to be worthwhile assuming you already have at least a decent power supply. Using optical rather than coaxial will of course eliminate any ground and other types of noise interference, but the tradeoff of increased jitter usually makes it not worth it.
The best way to stream audio from a computer remains asynchronous USB. Supposedly the Mykerinos can give even the top level asynch setups a run for their money, but that thing costs as much as an Auralic Vega IIRC.
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There is one thing I really love about the card already. The RCA out on the back runs at line level. Period. Adjusting the volume in Windows does absolutely nothing. The Bravura, on the other hand, was not line level. You'd have to keep the volume at 50 in Windows, otherwise it would run way too hot and distort (either due to the card itself or sources I hooked up to it...not sure).
I think the next step will be making sure I have the best PSU I can get to mitigate any grounding or noise issues that might come from it, if that is even really an issue in these situations. I might be solid as is.
You should be using kernel streaming out anyway, or at the very least, WASAPI or ASIO. Having the Windows sound mixer involved at any level is a no-no. Using a high-end Seasonic or something similar may make a small difference, but I doubt it will be noticeable enough to be worthwhile assuming you already have at least a decent power supply. Using optical rather than coaxial will of course eliminate any ground and other types of noise interference, but the tradeoff of increased jitter usually makes it not worth it.
The best way to stream audio from a computer remains asynchronous USB. Supposedly the Mykerinos can give even the top level asynch setups a run for their money, but that thing costs as much as an Auralic Vega IIRC.
If kernel streaming is better, is there a particular way to set that up? I use JRiver MC for music if that makes a difference. I've been using WASAPI for a while. The Bravura was weird in that I think the Windows volume control changed the line-out voltage on the card or something. I had to set it at 50/100 or else you would get distortion and clipping in music that wasn't actually there. I've had trouble finding the information that made me think that, but I do believe someone measured the line-out voltage as being quite high when the Windows volume was set to 100 with the Bravura. The Onkyo card just has two line-level RCA outputs, and that's the end of the story. I don't have to worry about if my volume will causing clipping or distortion anymore. Or, I hope that's the case...Either way, the card just plugs straight into the back of my vintage receiver I use for the T50RP (Sansui 5000A).
I'm currently running an Antec EarthWatts 650W (this specific revision): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371044
I believe it's a decent PSU, as the KitGuru review pointed out. I'm not sure if I'd see (hear) any benefit from a nicer unit or not. I'm guessing not likely? Not that I can see/hear anything wrong with this one necessarily. I'll need to get a new PSU down the road anyway when I go SLI GTX 780s. ;)
I know external DACs have theoretical advantages over internal sound cards, but I think some of the well-designed sound cards actually make for pretty good DACs. It definitely saves me money and desk space compared to buying similarly performing external DACs. Seems like good sound cards measure well even with external loopback testing, though getting it set up perfectly can be a PITA compared to an external DAC. But I could be wrong.
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I am enjoying the upgrade to my W4S DAC-2. Nice improvement in spacing, clarity and speed. I am at about 200 hours of break in so it should be getting close to its final sound.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred9/1.html
http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/p/74030/117839/904731
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This is actually the review that pointed out the Onkyo SE-200PCI sound card to me:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/rjm/888-nwavdeuche-odac-24-96-dac-review.html
However, I was most interested in the comparison measurements he did between this card and the ODAC (24-bit/96KHz).
Like he did, I just did some RightMark external loopback tests with my Onkyo card this morning using a really cheap, thin, crappy 6' RCA cable. My results were quite similar to his even still, though I was sitting at maybe 98dB of noise and dynamic range with the same settings. I couldn't get my Bravura to measure any better either with a loopback test on itself, so my measurements might not actually be indicative of the hardware's true performance in a more ideal situation. I'm also not sure how well the Onkyo works as an ADC, but generally sound card ADCs aren't designed quite up to the specs of the DAC. So anything said from this point is kept under the assumption that the ADC could be misrepresenting the Onkyo's full capabilities as a DAC.
I have noticed that with settings below 96KHz on the Onkyo (44.1KHz or 48KHz), measurements show less of a roll off in the bass (-0.2dB at 20Hz instead of -0.6dB or so). I did, however, get weird impulse and phase measurements at any 24-bit setting, though I'm not sure how to read those exactly or what they mean in the end. All I could tell is that the L and R impulse and phase measurements did not match on 24-bit but did on 16-bit.
So far, the 16-bit/48KHz setting has the flattest FR measurement with the Onkyo. The noise floor, distortion, and THD go up to about 92-93dB, but I've also noticed there are less relative peaks in noise and distortion at this setting compared to, say, 24-bit/96KHz. I do, however, always measure a small peak in the noise and distortion right at 60Hz on any setting. This was also the case with my Bravura. I see a couple other peaks in my noise and distortion measurements that are not present in the other Onkyo measurements I linked. I'm not sure what part of my setup as a whole is contributing to this.
I am planning on getting a nicer RCA cable within a few weeks and will do more finalized measurements at that point. I will probably use a 4'-6' cable again, as that will give results more indicative to my actual setup. I'm interested to see if that will produce a measurable change in noise and distortion since the area behind my computer is probably not the kindest to audio cables with little shielding (like I'm currently using).
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Does anyone have experience with the Schiit Gen 2 USB interface? I'm picking up a used Gungnir w/o OSB as a temporary DAC and I'm curious if I should pick up the Gen 2 USB board as well? I'm open to picking up a separate USB interface, but if the gen 2 USB is decent, I'll stick with that.
I'm holding off until the OR6 releases to survey the land before I move back up the DAC chain.
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Does anyone have experience with the Schiit Gen 2 USB interface? I'm picking up a used Gungnir w/o OSB as a temporary DAC and I'm curious if I should pick up the Gen 2 USB board as well? I'm open to picking up a separate USB interface, but if the gen 2 USB is decent, I'll stick with that.
I'm holding off until the OR6 releases to survey the land before I move back up the DAC chain.
If you're planning to use USB I would just order it with the USB board. From what I understand Schitt's board is pretty good, you'd probably have to spend at least $400 to get anything better from a converter.
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I just got some new RCA cables in from Blue Jeans Cable to use with the Onkyo sound card. I was curious how much of a measurable difference there would be between those and the super cheap RCA cables I was using previously. I figured the heavy shielding on the BJC cable would be the main contributor to any differences, especially given the mess of other wires in the same area as the RCA cables.
Sure enough, on a 16-bit/48KHz external loopback test (RightMark), noise and distortion changed by a whopping 0.3-0.4db (-91.8dB to -92.2dB)! Haha, not much, but still a difference! I think THD lowered by a whole 0.0003% or so. The biggest change, however, was at the 60Hz mark. My measurements show a peak in the noise and distortion there, and the new cable appears to have dropped that by -5dB or so. Overall noise and distortion measurements won't adequately represent changes like this.
I can now get lower than -100dB in noise and distortion with 24-bit/96KHz, where as with the previous cable I was at -98 or -99dB or so. I've also since discovered that the ADC in the card starts to perform worse in some ways at higher bitrates and sampling rates. At 24/96, I will get overall lower distortion and noise than, say, 16/48. However, 24/96 starts to introduce peaks in the noise and distortion at odd harmonics of 60Hz. It also rolls off the bass and treble a bit once it's at 96KHz, regardless of the bitrate.
Unfortunately, my DAC and ADC have to stay at the same sampling rate, but you can change the bitrate for each when measuring. I found that with the DAC at 24/48, the ADC would start to show more peaks at odd harmonics in 24/48 than it would in 16/48 (though 24/48 still had overall better measurements). I could be wrong, but I think this shows my ADC misrepresents how the DAC of the card is actually performing and introduces anomalies. Well, generally this is the case anyway...ADCs are usually less of a focus on sound cards than the DAC. And my tests to see if the ADC are causing these anomalies are hardly comprehensive or entirely scientific. I would like to see how the DAC portion of the sound card performs when measured with something more reference-grade, but that's not going to happen.
It could also be my computer itself introducing these peaks in the noise and distortion. Other measurements of the SE-200PCI do not seem to show these peaks in RightMark measurements, even at 24/96. It could be other external factors, but this is where my knowledge and understanding starts to drop off. With my next PC upgrade (at least months away), I'm planning on getting a higher quality PSU (using JonnyGuru's reviews for PSU measurements) and higher quality motherboard as well. I am curious if this will produce any measurable changes as well, as my current motherboard and PSU are budget mid-range at best.
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60Hz sounds like power supply 'issues'.
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Do you know of any ways I could isolate the main cause of the issue?
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Well I ended up making a decision on a DAC and all my extra research was for not. I got a great deal on a used Master 7 from a friend. Yeah I might have gotten more performance from a 5k dollar DAC chosen from the ones I was looking at, but I'm not sure it would have been enough of a difference to me to justify the price. Not that I won't be looking to compare other DACs to it in the future.
And right now, since I'm in Texas doing some training, it's winging its way to purrin, so in several weeks we should hopefully see some impressions of this beast for the pirates
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The Master 7 looks great with the lid off, however the actual benefits of it's overcomplicated construction are yet to be seen.
My experience with ADG is dodgy to say the least. When it works, it works nice, but designing a USB interface that works only with one cable out of five is poppycock. Also the enclosure hates sun more than Nosferatu himself and went from black to elegant brown in one summer week.
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The Master 7 looks great with the lid off, however the actual benefits of it's overcomplicated construction are yet to be seen.
really, the only part that is that overcomplicated is the power supply. And I think quite a few people have already got them and really like them.
My experience with ADG is dodgy to say the least. When it works, it works nice, but designing a USB interface that works only with one cable out of five is poppycock. Also the enclosure hates sun more than Nosferatu himself and went from black to elegant brown in one summer week.
Maybe I've just gotten lucky, but I've never had a problem with any of his gear. Maybe the older USB chipsets he was using were a bit dodgy? I know that many people really like the new USB-32 module and it works with linux and Slimdevices as well. Currawong even says it's as good as the AP1 with purepower
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Thanks to SoupRKnowva for sending the AGD Master 7 to my place for evaluation.
The M7 is pretty darn good. Knowing that the original PWD1->2 are no longer available, I wouldn't hesitate grabbing an AGD M7. The two units are competitive with each other with each trading places in areas where one does better than the other - this is with the Empirical Audio OR5 as the transport. (More impressions later in a dedicated post / thread.)
This of course brings up the question of the quality of AGD M7's USB implementation: it is very mediocre. I know Amos compared it to the AP1 POS. I'm sure the extra purepower PS makes the AP1 sound better, but the fact is, the AP1 (no purepower) sounded worse than the built-in USB NativeX implementation on my PWD1->2, so I'm not sure how good the AP1+purepower really is. In fact, I didn't think the AP1 was any better than the Gungnir's stock USB implementation upon a brief listen. And this was an early Gungir prototype USB implementation too.
The built-in USB implementation of the AGD M7 is really holding it back because of the following in order of severity.
- No precision with soundstage. The vocalist is not centered. Image wavers and is ill-defined / blobular.
- Greyish blackground.
- Overly laid-back mids, resulting in a perception of a darkish slope but with a sudden rise in the mid/high-treble.
- Very slight brittleness with treble.
Using the OR5 as a transport, the above are mostly corrected. #3 and #4 are gone. #1 and #2 issues are greatly ameliorated.
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Hah, my dac is based on sm5865 chip, and there is no a single mention on it on whole forum. I feeling special somewhat, lol
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Thanks to SoupRKnowva for sending the AGD Master 7 to my place for evaluation.
The M7 is pretty darn good. Knowing that the original PWD1->2 are no longer available, I wouldn't hesitate grabbing an AGD M7. The two units are competitive with each other with each trading places in areas where one does better than the other - this is with the Empirical Audio OR5 as the transport. (More impressions later in a dedicated post / thread.)
This of course brings up the question of the quality of AGD M7's USB implementation: it is very mediocre. I know Amos compared it to the AP1 POS. I'm sure the extra purepower PS makes the AP1 sound better, but the fact is, the AP1 (no purepower) sounded worse than the built-in USB NativeX implementation on my PWD1->2, so I'm not sure how good the AP1+purepower really is. In fact, I didn't think the AP1 was any better than the Gungnir's stock USB implementation upon a brief listen. And this was an early Gungir prototype USB implementation too.
The built-in USB implementation of the AGD M7 is really holding it back because of the following in order of severity.
- No precision with soundstage. The vocalist is not centered. Image wavers and is ill-defined / blobular.
- Greyish blackground.
- Overly laid-back mids, resulting in a perception of a darkish slope but with a sudden rise in the mid/high-treble.
- Very slight brittleness with treble.
Using the OR5 as a transport, the above are mostly corrected. #3 and #4 are gone. #1 and #2 issues are greatly ameliorated.
It sounds like you're saying that for price-performance comparison purposes, the M7 should be treated as costing $3,500 rather then $2,200, because the Overdrive isn't really optional.
Have you tried the M7 with any other USB-to-S/PDIF interfaces?
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For the OR5 guys here, is there a converter that you feel would get you reasonably close in performance for less clams? I like my Concero but I figure it's not going to be the last word in USB -> SPDIF (much less i2s). It too was not cheap though!
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I know some of the guys here didn't like it, but you could consider a AP2+PP for a few hundred bucks less. A few of use are happy with it.
If I had it to do over again I'd skip it, pay a little more, and get the OR5.
Which options should one consider getting with the off-ramp?
I just noticed the SE AP with DSD option... http://www.audiophilleo.com/384DSD.aspx (http://www.audiophilleo.com/384DSD.aspx)
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Not cheaper, but I actually like the Hilo as an offramp USB>AES very much.
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Not cheaper, but I actually like the Hilo as an offramp USB>AES very much.
Indeed! Wish Changstar could have a USB ->Spdif/AES/i2s shootout. The Computer Audiophile thread is useful but got bloated real quick. Plus I think I trust our guys more. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-usb-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/ (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-usb-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/)
Just wish the conclusion was not one must spend $1.5k+ on a converter!
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Not cheaper, but I actually like the Hilo as an offramp USB>AES very much.
Indeed! Wish Changstar could have a USB ->Spdif/AES/i2s shootout. The Computer Audiophile thread is useful but got bloated real quick. Plus I think I trust our guys more. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-usb-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/ (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-usb-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/)
Just wish the conclusion was not one must spend $1.5k+ on a converter!
Still no simple answers there. OR5 I2S kills OR5 AES but Hilo AES is better than the OR5's AES from what I heard though there maybe other factors leading to that impression according to Steve at Empirical. He likes to use his AES over I2S w/ his rig. So between myself, purrin and Steve we have different preferences for different reasons using the same piece of kit w/ different systems.
WRT that article. Audiophilleo = OR5? Uh, no....not at all. Oh god, I noticed they are using the $$$ Audioquest Diamond cable. I can tell you that cable is utter shit and that dialetric bias system makes it sound worse than a normal plain jane USB cable.
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For the OR5 guys here, is there a converter that you feel would get you reasonably close in performance for less clams? I like my Concero but I figure it's not going to be the last word in USB -> SPDIF (much less i2s). It too was not cheap though!
Unfortunately the OR5s potential rivals (Alpha USB, Bel Canto REF link, M2Tech EVO stack, Diverter 192) don't really offer much in the way of savings. The cost of the REF link and Sonicweld also seems to be going mostly into the enclosures as well. There was a guy on Head-fi who was offering to mod the Anedio U2 with Crystek clocks similar to the ones used by Berkeley and Empirical, but I don't know if he's still doing that.
There are a few possibilities that could potentially get at least close to the OR for a lower price: the CIAudio Transient with their LPS, the SoTM converter with the clock upgrade and the SoTM battery supply, and the Sonore converter. All of them run around $1K. The CIAudio and the Sonore both support I2S via HDMI, but in the case of the Sonore it's I2S *or* S/Pdif, not both.
The AR-T Legato is 16/44 only, which may have been excusable when it was released, but IMO it no longer is. Aside from that issue, it's also not nearly as magical sounding as they would have you believe.
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Which options should one consider getting with the off-ramp?
Hynes regulators are a must. Steve has incorporated the upgraded output transformer into the standard design. You can still spec the OTL option, but that requires any DAC you want to use to have galvanically isolated inputs with transformers. Whether you want the clock upgrade may depend on the existing tonal balance of your system. Empirical doesn't make the Monolith 12V battery anymore, but you can still use any 12V linear and the Short Block to further boost the performance a bit.
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Speaking of converters, John Grandberg(Project86) put up a review of the AP1 with PP, included a comparison to the OR5 http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/06/audiophileo-1-with-pure-power-the-little-combo-that-could/
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Finally found a good candidate for the ultimate multibit DAC project!
Here's the schematic - https://mega.co.nz/#!NZI0GYAa!M0ORcTZKojbNVtGciAx8QFmyBDtIRbke_dvFV-hhR9U (https://mega.co.nz/#!NZI0GYAa!M0ORcTZKojbNVtGciAx8QFmyBDtIRbke_dvFV-hhR9U)
And here be the pictorials.
http://goo.gl/gldWPM (http://goo.gl/gldWPM)
http://goo.gl/7qKlYm (http://goo.gl/7qKlYm)
The plan is to find a decent discrete IV stage and power everything via linear->shuntreg PSU's for extra madness points. USB->IIS via Amanero.
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Yesterday received Sneis's Stello DA100 Signature - a great DAC if you ask me. Currently the rig is as follows - Wasapi->DA100 Sig->QRV08->Paradox and it sounds terrific no matter what I throw at it.
Now to put the amp in a case that matches the Siggy.
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Speaking of converters, John Grandberg(Project86) put up a review of the AP1 with PP, included a comparison to the OR5 http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/06/audiophileo-1-with-pure-power-the-little-combo-that-could/ (http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/06/audiophileo-1-with-pure-power-the-little-combo-that-could/)
Unfortunately it doesn't appear John was able to test the OR5 via I2S which is where it shines.
I'd also prefer my CDT over the AP1 thoug but it smashed 7 other CDTs I AB'd including two Marantz (5004/6004), Cambridge Audio and the PWT.
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The plan is to find a decent discrete IV stage and power everything via linear->shuntreg PSU's for extra madness points. USB->IIS via Amanero.
Does Twisted Pear's stuff fit the bill? I've been intrigued with Brian and Russ' stuff for a while.
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Speaking of converters, John Grandberg(Project86) put up a review of the AP1 with PP, included a comparison to the OR5 http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/06/audiophileo-1-with-pure-power-the-little-combo-that-could/ (http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/06/audiophileo-1-with-pure-power-the-little-combo-that-could/)
Unfortunately it doesn't appear John was able to test the OR5 via I2S which is where it shines.
I'd also prefer my CDT over the AP1 thoug but it smashed 7 other CDTs I AB'd including two Marantz (5004/6004), Cambridge Audio and the PWT.
Curious as to what model Denon you have?
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The plan is to find a decent discrete IV stage and power everything via linear->shuntreg PSU's for extra madness points. USB->IIS via Amanero.
Does Twisted Pear's stuff fit the bill? I've been intrigued with Brian and Russ' stuff for a while.
Buffalos can be tailored to sound terrific, however it takes a ton of tinkering and usually involves employing a FIFO reclocker that helps with cleaning up the treble. I have a feeling that by basing the build on a different DAC chip you can get more for less. I think I've already mentioned somewhere about the technological hurdles presented by the ES9018.
The bottom line is that I don't want to end up fighting the chip that much. I'd rather use a PCM63K if I decide going multibit or the AD1955 if delta/sigma and be done with it.
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Speaking of converters, John Grandberg(Project86) put up a review of the AP1 with PP, included a comparison to the OR5 http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/06/audiophileo-1-with-pure-power-the-little-combo-that-could/ (http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/09/06/audiophileo-1-with-pure-power-the-little-combo-that-could/)
Unfortunately it doesn't appear John was able to test the OR5 via I2S which is where it shines.
I'd also prefer my CDT over the AP1 thoug but it smashed 7 other CDTs I AB'd including two Marantz (5004/6004), Cambridge Audio and the PWT.
Yeah, if you've read around, you'll get all sorts of different results and the only thing I could assume is that these converters play differently with different DACs. John's not the only one who has said the OR5 is dark sounding - others have too. In my experience, with the Gungnir via OR5 SPDIF, there was no change in tonal response. With the PWD2 via SPDIF, you could say that it was tilted perhaps a slight bit brighter because of the extra clarity. The PWD2 via I2S, things got a bit darker. With the AGD M7, the OR5 via SPDIF took away the treble stridency and brought up the mids. (This is all with the non-turbo clock version.)
If there's anything I might have somewhat regretted, it's not paying close attention to the OR5 SPDIF to the Invicta, but I think at that time, I was tired from that exhaustive four DAC comparison, with the Invicta being a disappointment because of my own inflated expectations of it. Anax was kind of like "you sure you don't want to try it out more with the Invicta?" and I was like "Fugg it. I know Ruben must be missing his OR5."
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The plan is to find a decent discrete IV stage and power everything via linear->shuntreg PSU's for extra madness points. USB->IIS via Amanero.
Does Twisted Pear's stuff fit the bill? I've been intrigued with Brian and Russ' stuff for a while.
Buffalos can be tailored to sound terrific, however it takes a ton of tinkering and usually involves employing a FIFO reclocker that helps with cleaning up the treble. I have a feeling that by basing the build on a different DAC chip you can get more for less. I think I've already mentioned somewhere about the technological hurdles presented by the ES9018.
The bottom line is that I don't want to end up fighting the chip that much. I'd rather use a PCM63K if I decide going multibit or the AD1955 if delta/sigma and be done with it.
Ditto. Search ebay for AD1966 or AKM4399 for cheap boards you can play with. Bypass the regulators with AMB power supplies. Install boutique clocks, better caps, etc. I gave up on my own B3 build after my experience messing with several boutique regulators (none to my full satisfaction) and realizing what it would take to make it sound right (FIFO buffers, third-party analog boards with higher rails, etc.) At the end, I figured I would end up spending more than the AGD M7 without any guarantee of a non-Sabre sound, so I sold all my stuff to Ship. I've convinced at this point that the Sabre stuff is a mid-fi chip very well marketed as hi-fi. If you had to work that hard to make a Sabre sound right, that amount effort could be put into making the AD or AKM sound superb.
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Well, I haven't really seen good boards for either of the chips on ebay. Most of them are knock offs of some easy to understand commercial designs or datasheet schematics spawned into a PCB with as much cost cutting as it can take.
Serious high end DAC diy is extremely hard to do as the result very much depends on smart layouting as well as topology design. And it is never ever cheap to do.
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Well, I haven't really seen good boards for either of the chips on ebay. Most of them are knock offs of some easy to understand commercial designs or datasheet schematics spawned into a PCB with as much cost cutting as it can take.
Serious high end DAC diy is extremely hard to do as the result very much depends on smart layouting as well as topology design. And it is never ever cheap to do.
For some tech junkie I think this site may be interesting enough - http://goo.gl/RNp4xB . Its fully in Russian, however PDF contain schematics which may be of use. This guy, Andronnikov, are somewhat local layout, topology and overall dac design god. He uses 4-layer pcb's, and spend much time optimising it around different dacs. He usually publishes only designs he liked both measurement and sound-wise. I know there are much more that never got public. His latest design is based on Sabre, which he spent about 5 year dealing with.. PDF description have some insights into that dac, and is overall an interesting read, if you can tolerate google-translate. Other current designs that he consider to be top are based on AK4399, SM5865 and AD1853. He used multibit dacs for a while, but moved on to delta-sigma, because they can perform better in his opinion. Which itself is an interesting statement.
I'm using his Lynx D47v3 dac myself, and thinking about moving to D60 based on AK4399. Hope to compare them sometime this or next year, since they are in the same city with me :)
Most interesting, this designs is just his hobby and not work. However he offers complete pcb's, or even complete devices for sale. Prices are pretty high however, and can differ as he feels himself, and so not posted anywhere on site.
I like this approach myself. He do not care about business or anything much. And not focusing on only 1-2 dacs or design ideas, but trying complete different things, perfecting it in his own vision.
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So, someone else knows Dmitri as well! I have posted his findings on multibit chip ENOB and his adventures with the ES9018 that contained some interesting notes. Luckily I don't have to mess around with Google Translator - my Russian could do some brushing up, but it is sufficient for understanding Andronnikov's documentations.
And yes - his designs are the only ones that I consider truly high end in the realm of diy. I am, however anxious to hear what you have to say about his D47v3!
Getting my dirty paws on one of his boards has been a dream for me for some time. I've been lurking on Vegalab.ru and I find that forum to be a terrific resource for a diy-er.
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So, someone else knows Dmitri as well!
Nice to hear I'm not the only one around! :)
I compared 47v3 to quite a few other devices, most known of them are NAD m51, Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC 2, Linn Akurate DS/0/D and Accustic Arts DAC I (mk2 or mk3, dont remember). And in terms of sound signature, it was most like m51 that was tuned to be high end. Nad is a bit rough, and lacking smoothness by comparison. Also Nad sounds more v-shaped, and its highs sounded a bit distorted to me, like most other 1000-1500$ priced dacs. Less details and more upfront sound. But that makes it sounds a bit more dynamic on some music, like Rammstein. On some music there was minor differences, but when it was big, D47 was clearly better.
Also, I need to mention, that D47 have the most powerful, controlled and fast bass off all of dacs I mention here. I could easily determine D47 in blind test with any of those dacs just by its amazing bass response alone.
Linn and AA did not impress me in any way, for me D47 is a higher class than both. Both are more colored and have less details. AA is somewhat tubey sounding dac, and Linn is on contrary, dry and artifical.
And the most interesting was the comparison with Berkeley. Those two dacs have totally different approach to sound, while both are very high class. Berkeley was the only dac so far, that make me feel D47 is not totally neutral by comparison. After comparison I had a feelings that D47 may be a bit V-shaped (which is not that surprise after that comparison with m51). However, while I usually tested most other dacs on speakers, and\or in my system, comparison with Berkeley was in other system I'm not familiar with, and was only on headphones - TDS-15 and very good LCD-2 (clearly the best example i've listened to. There were also LCD-3 laying around, but they were just hands-down worse, I listened to them about 5 mins at did not touch them again). So soundstage (I usually dont like describing it, and only do when it is really a noticeable difference) and spaciousness on Berkeley was much wider and deeper. I have long heard about how good Berkeley was on headphones just because of that soundstage, so I was not that surprised. However on speakers the responses are mixed, and some people say it is mostly a headphone dac, and they was very disappointed at how it perfomed on speakers. I dont know, but it sounds strange to me. Anyway, so Berkeley was clearly better here. The outcome is, that Berkeley was more laid back, while D47 was much more dynamic and entertaining, because of its more upfront sound and again, better bass (but not as much better as with other dacs, Berkeley was not far behind). I liked orchestral recording on Berkeley alot, it sounded more audiophile, where you can enjoy every sound on its own. Or just relax and listen to a big picture, as he did not separate sounds from each other, as some other lower class dacs. D47 however, was much more fun on rock, electronic, and modern music. The detail retrieval was more or less the same to my ears, however because of bigger soundstage, it was easier to hear and enjoy it on Berkeley.
Now, from the reading through forums and Lynx's description of D60, I'm thinking it will sound more like Berkeley, a bit more laid back and more spacious than D47. However, as I know, D60 have about the same price as new Berkeley. And so, second-hand Berkeleys may be a cheaper option. But I just like Lynxes =D
I also own their P-05 preamp and HA61 headphone amplifier, both of them used in primary system with no plans of upgrading in near future (I'm drooling at P-45, but its just so much higher priced than my P-05..)
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That's pretty high praise, I must say. Then again I'm not surprised as the spectrographic readings on the D47v3 are nothing short of phenomenal, bested only by the higher range Lynx DACs like the D60 you mentioned. I have, however, been a bit skeptical towards Dmitri's readings as they usually border with the theoretical limits of the DAC chip in question. I mean having D2 at -127dB with 0dB fundamental signal is very hard to believe.
If I may ask (answer on PM if you like) - how much the D47v3 ended up costing to you? I might have found a headphone amp that provides respectable enough performance to mate with such a DAC. Hence it's not improbable that I could take up building one of Dmitri's DACs.
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That's pretty high praise, I must say. Then again I'm not surprised as the spectrographic readings on the D47v3 are nothing short of phenomenal, bested only by the higher range Lynx DACs like the D60 you mentioned. I have, however, been a bit skeptical towards Dmitri's readings as they usually border with the theoretical limits of the DAC chip in question. I mean having D2 at -127dB with 0dB fundamental signal is very hard to believe
Yes, I've heard that opinion. While, whole theme is beyond my clear understanding, I heard that some people question his graphs also. He replied several times on it, but I will not dare to translate it here, and I don't think I can find this posts now. I know he was, at some point, designing some kind of measurement systems at Russian facility, so for myself, I'm tend to believe at what he do. His answers on vegalab are very logical, as he can clearly describe any decision he made for any of his dacs, from single capacitance manufacturer, to overall layout composition. As for price, I'll send a pm.
Here is some photos. Housing is simple ebay one, and input diodes does not match the text, as my version only have a single usb input (asynchronous - another diy project - Flamenko).
http://cs10850.vk.me/u1506125/107317555/z_327d70c5.jpg
http://cs10850.vk.me/u1506125/107317555/z_fa72af73.jpg
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Any impressions here on the Grace m903?
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anyone else pick up a hrt microstreamer from the recent massdrop?
mine arrived today - i like it so far.
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Anyone experience lampizator DACs? There's a 4.5 on sale in SF.
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The build quality left me worried.
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Lampazitor builds seem to be a bit all over the place from what I've seen. Some of them are fairly neat, others are a complete mess inside. I'm not that familiar with them, but I *think* the sound is comparable to the Audio Note DACs.
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For some tech junkie I think this site may be interesting enough - http://goo.gl/RNp4xB . Its fully in Russian, however PDF contain schematics which may be of use. This guy, Andronnikov, are somewhat local layout, topology and overall dac design god. He uses 4-layer pcb's, and spend much time optimising it around different dacs. He usually publishes only designs he liked both measurement and sound-wise. I know there are much more that never got public. His latest design is based on Sabre, which he spent about 5 year dealing with.. PDF description have some insights into that dac, and is overall an interesting read, if you can tolerate google-translate. Other current designs that he consider to be top are based on AK4399, SM5865 and AD1853. He used multibit dacs for a while, but moved on to delta-sigma, because they can perform better in his opinion. Which itself is an interesting statement.
I'm using his Lynx D47v3 dac myself, and thinking about moving to D60 based on AK4399. Hope to compare them sometime this or next year, since they are in the same city with me :)
Most interesting, this designs is just his hobby and not work. However he offers complete pcb's, or even complete devices for sale. Prices are pretty high however, and can differ as he feels himself, and so not posted anywhere on site.
I like this approach myself. He do not care about business or anything much. And not focusing on only 1-2 dacs or design ideas, but trying complete different things, perfecting it in his own vision.
Very interesting. Do you know the approximate price category. Edit: Nvrmind sending PM.
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Anyone heard the Trinity DAC?
http://www.trinity-ed.de/typo/index.php?id=12&L=1
Apparently it's getting quite a lot of hype in some circles, and I know some summit-fi peeps in Asia who traded their dCS Vivaldi stacks for it after auditions.
Also really curious about this Wadax all-in-one unit: http://www.wadax.eu/?page_id=642
Especially the part about its ability to be optimized as a DAC or pre-amp depending on how you choose to set it up in your system. Also with their Hermes add-on it can stream music: http://www.wadax.eu/?page_id=8133
I've been contemplating switching to a more dedicated streaming network solution like that, essentially replacing my MacBook which is pulling double duty. Another option would be the Lumin network player: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/538-lumin-network-music-player-review/
It doesn't have the all-in-one abilities of the Wadax, but I'd probably want to use a different DAC anyway. Really, the main draw of the Wadax for me would be the phono capabilities; it would be a nice option to have if I were to get back into vinyl sooner rather than later.
A few days ago, I had a chance to audition the Light Harmonic DaVinci in my own setup. I seriously wanted to come away from the experience underwhelmed given the astronomical price tag (mostly markup from its $8999 USD introductory price...?). This was to no avail. Instead, I ended up falling in love with the damn thing. This is a DAC that costs as much as a new Camry and looks like it came from a gay night club (I would know). It's also the best sounding DAC I've ever heard. I felt it was more or less on another level compared to the EMM Labs model I heard.
I've already started selling off most of my remaining ancillary gear to help fund my purchasing one. I still want to hear a few other models before making such a big purchase, however. Namely the MSB Analog DAC, dCS Debussy, Trinity DAC, and Master 7.
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Have you tried the Linn DS players? Excellent, but overly expensive, especially the Klimax. You should definitely check the Akurate DS or http://www.linn.co.uk/all-products/network-music-players#akurate-dsm with phono stage, if you have a chance though.
I have the Majik DS-i and as a one box solution it really shines over any separate component setup I've heard even remotely in the same price range. Brilliant as well as a pure DAC, but haven't played with that much. Have only speakers set up with it at the moment.
Though the thing with the 3rd party control points and having supplied a shitty one themselves, I would never look at the higher end models purely for that reason. For that price I would expect the software to be pretty much perfect.
I don't think any of the brands/models you listed are available in Finland.
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MF, curious as to what you liked about the Light Harmonic DaVinci? It is kind of sleezy to increase the price by $10 000 from introductory pricing in my opinion. I am not quite sure how they can justify that increase.
How much is the Trinity DAC going for? If Asian audiophiles are trading in their Vivaldi stacks I can only imagine it is $50K+. I did a quick search on impressions for it but no price. I am not familiar with any of the people involved but the review's seemed a little FOTM to me. Like it sounds more "impressive" than the DCS. Reminds me of what I read about the 009. People start off with "AMAZING!" and change to "how do I tame the highs?" over the long term. Interested to hear what you think if you get a chance to hear it.
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Price went up because demand went up. Just economics. It's not like they made a $300-$400 headphone and started the price at $1700. Just a hypothetical example.
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The more cynical part of me says they were always planning on upping the price, but that they needed to put units in people's hands to up the grass-roots hype as opposed to just reviewer hype. Get people talking, then when it becomes a must have raise the price. Volti speakers did something similar and were very open about their logic, but they were actually losing money at their introductory pricing.
I'm not sure as I haven't really researched it, but at this price and with the speed of the DAC market, this DAC better have some modularity to it.
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Yeah but if it sounds like shit and nobody wants it, it's not a very good strategy. Your theory is just a more sophisticated version of market economics. Same basic premise of adjusting the demand curve.
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Fair enough to them if it sounds great and people want to buy it. Seeing it as a demand increase is a little simplistic. It is leaving out the fact that people like MF who are considering buying one are saying "this once was $9k, what has changed to more than double the price". Experimental economics has found that people are quite vindictive in that way. The strategy is not too dissimilar to their recent kickstarter project except that when you are talking $9k to $20k it is a much larger difference in absolute terms vs $200 to $400 for the Geek.
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Not sure on the exact price of the new Trinity DAC, but its predecessor (which looks a lot cooler to me: http://www.alldacinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/trinity-DAC7.jpg) was about 45,000 EUR. Definitely outside my price range. However if I wanted to blow $50k on a DAC, I'd probably consider the Audio Note 5 first.
Regarding Light Harmonic: I'm not planning on marrying them, I'm just interested in their products. The moral fabric of a company is something to think about, sure, but to me the price thing isn't something I'm going to condemn them for doing. If a company wants to charge this or that, so be it. I'm more inclined to get annoyed when they start trying to take some moralistic high ground and act like their competitors are rip offs for charging what they want. Or even if they start driving up market prices in general. Clearly with $50k DACs out there, the $20k DaVinci isn't raising the bar.
Let's put it this way: getting the DaVinci at $9k would be great. Heck, I'd be happy to get it at $12k. Even at $20k however I'm still interested in it, because that doesn't change the fact that I felt it was the best DAC I've heard. I could probably approximate the experience for significantly less, but at the end of the day it would still be an approximation (even if it was pretty close). I don't want to settle for "almost" when it comes to my end-game rig.
If I hear what I consider to be a better DAC for less, I will most certainly put that at the top of my consideration list above the DaVinci. As much as paying this kind of money for a DAC imparts a sense of mystique and reckless thrill, I would prefer to save a bit of dosh if possible. Which is why I'm hoping I could get a little discount from one of the distributors.
To answer the question of what I like about the DaVinci, I'd need to invoke too many audiphile cliches for my comfort. I will echo something Purrin said to me the other day when describing the Master 7: the higher up you go in the DAC world, the harder it becomes to describe the character of a DAC. I'd say this [usually] holds true to the differences between high end DACs too. I didn't really feel as though the DaVinci imparted a lot in the way of its own character. Compared to other DACs I've heard (the second most expensive of which was the EMM Labs DACX2 or whatever it's called), the DaVinci just sounded the most effortless. It seemed laid back but still really detailed, and it reminded me of listening to really high end turntables from Basis and Clearaudio. All the parts of a given track sound cohesive, like everything is in its right place, and the whole thing just sounds pulled together. At the same time, all those individual parts remain distinct and easily discernible.
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What you say holds true for me and my recent Debussy purchase. The price was pretty good for the current market, but it's still a lot of dosh for a DAC when one considers what's available for cheaper. The purchase was a bit impulsive to see if there really is a step change. I hope I get a similar experience that you did with the LH and it's all worth it.
I do like the fact that the dCS strategy is for upgrades via software. The idea that this can be a long term DAC is part of the appeal. I see myself eventually going down the speaker hole and I hope the Debussy remains as the digital core of that system... but that's still a way down the road.
I really like the look of that Lumin. I've been reading a lot about it.
For my set up I've been planning to eventually set up a Mac mini server arrangement.
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Looking back, my post may have come across as overly negative which was not my intention. It just reminds me of something Schitt said. To paraphrase, we don't do sales or special prices because it just ends up pissing people off who missed out. I think that speaks to a company concerned about customers, not just trying to squeeze every last drop of profit out of a product once it receives favorable reviews. That is more than just morals, that is overall business practices and company attitude.
Truthfully If I were in your situation I would just buy it for the current price and not worry about it, it was just a little strange and money grabby to me (I wasn't aware of the price increase before)
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Whenever I'm looking at Chinese DAC's I keep eyeing the Holo Audio T.Rex... http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.12.kjgF7w&id=27431804460
(http://img04.taobaocdn.com/imgextra/i4/11512424/T28mPlXb4aXXXXXXXX_!!11512424.jpg_310x310.jpg)
There's something very attractive in the design for me...
It could be it looks like a PCM1704 "designed perfect", rather than a PCM1704 "designed like shit" like the Audio-gd's which all look like a rollercoaster vomited.
Here is a translated review...
"The original configuration wadia 8 turntable dac7 decoder 1547 Jiangmen Lee vt 60 single-ended tube amp Jiangmen Lee touched changed tad 2402 Case jbl 2226h 15 inch bass midrange old Nanjing 104 plus ultra Lee debugging divider effect class . Decoded for this effect is positive. Low sense of speed , strength, sense has improved. Rare is the high-frequency detail analysis of power increase even more. IF sense of place and authenticity of the human voice has improved greatly . Listen to the entire symphony deeper and wider sound field . Listen to folk music more interesting , long listen tire. Might sound sense to write so many , and in October of this year , according to the authors say there is a big machine upgrade and facelift I was looking forward to . There is a small problem from usb computer access decoding, my system is win7 64 bit Ultimate edition . System will not boot sound , no sound came out , the authors hope to be able to pay attention to the little details. Real experience, any similarity is purely coincidental ! ! ! ^ _ ^
At 11:14 on June 28, 2013"
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I'm not a a big AudioGD advocate, but the Master 7 w/ the 1704 is not your typical Chinese shit. That is a pretty serious DAC for money if that is the sound you are after. Just know what inputs you plan to emphasize and where the strengths of the Master7 are.
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Yeah I read purrins' comments on the PCM1704 Audio-gd stuff, seems like he likes it and I imagine you've auditioned it as well.
Well, aesthetically I prefer the Holo Audio, and in design theory it uses those yellow capacitors, if I put it that way. I like pretending the yellow Tantalum capacitors make a difference, so I'm biased / wishful thinking.
In truth the very weak looking Russian measurements of an Audio-gd ES9018 DAC is what really killed my interest in them, coupled with the negative subjective thoughts of their OPASUN etc. discrete designs.
Speaking of the PCM1704, there is the HIFI E.T. MA9 as well, which can be used as a desktop USB DAC if desired...
http://en.hifi-et.com/ma9
I feel like when the reviews around are only by the usual suspects (the usual shills) you only find the equivalent of a magazine advertisement, flashy looking and all hollow inside.
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I've already started selling off most of my remaining ancillary gear to help fund my purchasing one. I still want to hear a few other models before making such a big purchase, however. Namely the MSB Analog DAC, dCS Debussy, Trinity DAC, and Master 7.
If you can find an Accuphase DC-801, I would highly recommend picking one up. There's no USB input, but an Off-Ramp solves that issue. You may also want to audition the top level Esoteric DACs if you haven't already, unlike Accuphase, they didn't fall victim to Sabre hype. Their D-01 dual mono flagship uses 8 stacked PCM-1704s.
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Man, you guys really hate the sabre dac chip. Light Harmonick has a new $500 msrp dac/amp on indiegogo right now that uses the mobile version of the sabre, currently you can back it for $300
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You may also want to audition the top level Esoteric DACs if you haven't already, unlike Accuphase, they didn't fall victim to Sabre hype. Their D-01 dual mono flagship uses 8 stacked PCM-1704s.
Technically it's a mono flagship, if you want stereo sound you'll need to buy two of them, thus around 1.15 million Yen x2 from what I'm seeing at Yahoo Japan shopping.
I like the ES9018 but I admit it's still imperfect, perhaps the PCM1704 is still closer to perfection, I'm happy to see Esoteric using it and take some light away from that Chinese company which explicitly uses high distortion discrete circuits.
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Man, you guys really hate the sabre dac chip. Light Harmonick has a new $500 msrp dac/amp on indiegogo right now that uses the mobile version of the sabre, currently you can back it for $300
Where did you see that it was using the Sabre? I thought that it was the PCM1795 like the Geek Out.
I'm not sure that you 'can't' make a good DAC using the 9018, but most of the DACs built around it aren't that good. There was just an explosive amount of hype surrounding it, and I think a lot of companies jumped on the bandwagon without realizing that it's a massive PITA to work with, and that the spec sheet is full of errors and is also missing a bunch of data as well. Auralic had to reach out to the DIY community for help because they couldn't make heads or tails of it.
Even in the best of circumstances, the 9018 doesn't sound like the best of the old AD and TI R2R chips, so if that's what you're trying to emulate, the 9018 is the wrong choice. Accuphase didn't get that, which is why they turned their gorgeous, gorgeous sounding DC-801 into the very "digital" sounding DC-901, thanks to dual Sabres in place of I believe it was sixteen AD1955s. I'll take the 1955 over the 9018 in a heartbeat.
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LH is using the 9018m for both the Geek out and the Geek pulse.
Anax and dbel heard the version with the 9018M at RMAF and were suitably impressed.
BTW, am I the only one who realized that Light Harmonic and Larry Ho have the same initials? I wonder if that was intentional on his part?
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Interesting. I think I read somewhere that it started out with the PCM1795 and then they switched. I am curious about the Geek Pulse, it seems to be a MUCH better deal than something like the DAC version of the Meridian Explorer which is something like $700.
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Do the pirates have any thoughts/opinions on these "direct digital" amps that are coming out? (Sometimes called power-dacs?) There's the Wadia 151, NAD M2, Nuforce DDA-100, etc...
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Do the pirates have any thoughts/opinions on these "direct digital" amps that are coming out? (Sometimes called power-dacs?) There's the Wadia 151, NAD M2, Nuforce DDA-100, etc...
If they're using Class D switching amps or Tripaths, meh. I'd much rather have a conventional Class A/B linestage like a Simaudio with the DAC board installed.
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Not really in the market for this at the moment. Just want to know what's out there, that's all.
I realize that most people would suggest I start out with a neutral DAC and add whatever warmth and "EQ" via amp selection. But let's say I've settled on an amp pairing for my headphones. This particular amp offers everything I'm looking for in terms of technicalities and "synergy" with said headphones, but doesn't add that much colour to the presentation. Is it possible to add that last bit of warm-bodied "wetness" to the chain with a change of DAC? If so, are there any DACs that offer this sort of of sound? I don't mind sacrificing resolution in order to get that sound, so I wouldn't care even if the DAC achieves it via some sort of destructive DSP filter. Basically, I'm trying to inject some old-skool tubey wetness into a solid-state chain that already does everything else right for me. Possible?
I can't understand flowery 6moonspeak, so if you do have a suggestion for me, I'd appreciate it if you'd use imbecile-friendly lingo.
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I realize that most people would suggest I start out with a neutral DAC and add whatever warmth and "EQ" via amp selection. But let's say I've settled on an amp pairing for my headphones. This particular amp offers everything I'm looking for in terms of technicalities and "synergy" with said headphones, but doesn't add that much colour to the presentation. Is it possible to add that last bit of warm-bodied "wetness" to the chain with a change of DAC? If so, are there any DACs that offer this sort of of sound?
You can consider a cheap amplifier to use as a pre-amp and put an OPA627 inside. OPA627 isn't the highest performer but it's very pretty / aesthetic sounding. The fake / cloned units I received from this seller sound real to me, highly recommended - www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-opamp-opa627-OPA627AU-on-SOIC-DIP-adapter-/130938949909
Note, clearly there are fakes which are not clones and therefore don't sound real. Supporting clones isn't right but the asking price of the OPA627 is too high in these times for a single IC.
If your DAC is digital and dry sounding consider investing in something like this www.ebay.com/itm/Breeze-Audio-mini-24BIT-192K-USB-DAC-AKM4399-XMOS-USB-DAC-/281157507866
I haven't heard that exact model but the AK4399 and LME49990 usually sound wet and realistic.
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Not really in the market for this at the moment. Just want to know what's out there, that's all.
I realize that most people would suggest I start out with a neutral DAC and add whatever warmth and "EQ" via amp selection. But let's say I've settled on an amp pairing for my headphones. This particular amp offers everything I'm looking for in terms of technicalities and "synergy" with said headphones, but doesn't add that much colour to the presentation. Is it possible to add that last bit of warm-bodied "wetness" to the chain with a change of DAC? If so, are there any DACs that offer this sort of of sound? I don't mind sacrificing resolution in order to get that sound, so I wouldn't care even if the DAC achieves it via some sort of destructive DSP filter. Basically, I'm trying to inject some old-skool tubey wetness into a solid-state chain that already does everything else right for me. Possible?
I can't understand flowery 6moonspeak, so if you do have a suggestion for me, I'd appreciate it if you'd use imbecile-friendly lingo.
Just get a ladder DAC like the M7 or whatever else is out there atm. Stay away from Sigma Delta chips.
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Is it possible to add that last bit of warm-bodied "wetness" to the chain with a change of DAC? If so, are there any DACs that offer this sort of of sound? I don't mind sacrificing resolution in order to get that sound, so I wouldn't care even if the DAC achieves it via some sort of destructive DSP filter. Basically, I'm trying to inject some old-skool tubey wetness into a solid-state chain that already does everything else right for me. Possible?
Of course. First things first, the Sabre is NOT your friend in this case. Completely wrong signature. The PCM1704 is a good option, but other than those from Audio-GD, DACs using the 1704 will cost you quite a bit. There's also the Metrum Octave MKII and Hex, though as far as I'm aware, the DACs in there are 16-bit.
I probably would not recommend anything based on the TDA1543, just because it's a pretty low-grade chip and stacking 8 of them doesn't change that fact. A company called CAD makes a 1543 DAC that costs nearly 7,000GBP, which just seems psychotic to me. Supposedly they tried the 1704 and liked the 1543 better. I don't buy it. I think the truth is they can get 1543s for pennies compared to what the 1704 costs these days.
I don't think you necessarily have to go R2R to get the sound you want though, the AD1955 and the WM8741 can both produce a nice, warm "analog" sound, as can the AKM4399. It just depends on the output stage. You can look at tube driven DACs of course, but there are SS candidates as well.
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I concur that output stage might actually have more impact on the tubeyness of the DAC sound signature. I'm also a proponent of the notion that less-than-optimally designed output stages are what's wrong with most bad ES9018 DAC's.
If you want "lebenesque" sound, many older Parasound and Adcom DACs can get you that, however they are usually big, clunky and run really hot as some have Class-A mosftet output buffers. Mr.Sneis seems in the know about where to get these old beasts and for how much.
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WM8741 still sounds like a delta sigma.
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I concur that output stage might actually have more impact on the tubeyness of the DAC sound signature. I'm also a proponent of the notion that less-than-optimally designed output stages are what's wrong with most bad ES9018 DAC's.
That's part of it, but I think it's also suboptimal filter design and power supply design especially. Apparently the 9018 is incredibly picky and requires vastly more PS regulation than most other D-S chips.
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Of course. First things first, the Sabre is NOT your friend in this case. Completely wrong signature. The PCM1704 is a good option, but other than those from Audio-GD, DACs using the 1704 will cost you quite a bit.
There's a few unchartered or newer units, such as the Holo Audio http://www.hifidiy.net/8-10738-1.html
Consider how the available data looks versus the distortion performance available of the Audio-gd discrete circuits http://www.sg-acoustics.ch/analogue_audio/ic_opamps/pdf/opamp_distortion.pdf
Even if the Audio-gd DAC's are not using the OPA-MOON circuit on their line-outs, they are all using discrete and I am not sure how far in fact the apple falls from the tree.
At least they are not selling identical parts at 10x the price with a new sticker as Burson has done, pretty much verified in that PDF document.
I probably would not recommend anything based on the TDA1543
x2, I've only heard the HM-601 and the Lite DAC-AH http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hi-End-DAC-8pcs-TDA1543-Chips-24Bit-96kHz-115V-230V-/110734076991, and once again, I don't think the apple will fall far from the tree in a high-end TDA1543 design, whatever that is. A different DAC chip is necessary, as abraxalito and MHDT have indicated for instance.
I don't think you necessarily have to go R2R to get the sound you want though, the AD1955 and the WM8741 can both produce a nice, warm "analog" sound, as can the AKM4399.
x2, not necessary to actually have R2R to achieve a very nice sultry analog sound without pre-echo etc. I think the ES9018 is pretty / aesthetic in it's own way, but it doesn't sound analog like a very, very high resolution cassette tape player, which is what a DAC is supposed to sound like, AFAIK.
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Uh oh, just recently started reading through this thread somewhat carefully, and I wasn't aware of NOS DACs and the like. The concept of such a DAC is very intriguing to me, though I understand compromises can often include rolled-off treble, higher distortion, and subjectively less powerful bass depending on the design and implementation.
I have noticed over the past couple years that my threshold for listening fatigue has become smaller and smaller, and I've been trying to narrow down the primary causes behind this. A large part of this is due to me continuously learning and as such better understanding what I am and am not hearing. For example, before getting into headphones, I knew I was pretty intolerant of a bright and harsh sound, but I did not understand how factors such as frequency response as a whole and its smoothness, ringing, and distortion came together to produce what I was hearing (and how to map that to my tastes). After reading through this thread and doing some outside research based on interesting topics, I feel I'm just barely beginning to understand how big of a role different DACs and their implementations can play in audio reproduction.
This plays into my nerdiness/geekiness/slight OCD for perfection. Even if I don't notice an imperfection by myself or right away, once I learn about it, I do my best to tweak and fix whatever it is, bringing my personal tastes into account at all times. It's why all of my displays I use at home are calibrated, why I use custom firmware on my routers (complete customization for performance and stability), why I use specific video cards and application settings to smooth out frame times and the overall framerate, why I only use 120Hz displays for gaming on PC, etc. etc. A lot of this stuff I didn't care about until I started learning more and more about the subjects.
As such, the claimed benefits that NOS and similar-type DACs can provide has interested me enough to push me to purchase one. I came across a Metrum Quad (with PSU) and JKSPDIF converter for a fairly good price considering what these units go for new individually, though eBay and Paypal have yet to finalize my payment. I'm hoping this will at least give me a good tastes for NOS DACs to see if they'll provide a path that will help me with listening fatigue and simply suit my tastes.
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It should be noted that NOS DACs that can do more than 16/44 emit tremendous amounts of HF energy that is NOT related to audio (in fact is mirrored) and can cause LOTS of audible problems IF the chain behind it isn't a good performer.
This is caused by the analog 'reconstruction filter' that is more or less missing for redbook.
There are ways around that HF energy but is like washing away the baby with the bathwater.
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It should be noted that NOS DACs that can do more than 16/44 emit tremendous amounts of HF energy that is NOT related to audio (in fact is mirrored) and can cause LOTS of audible problems IF the chain behind it isn't a good performer.
This is caused by the analog 'reconstruction filter' that is more or less missing for redbook.
There are ways around that HF energy but is like washing away the baby with the bathwater.
That's another downside I read about as well, which does worry me. What most others have recommended is upsampling your music via software, running 16/96 at least (24/176 if available), matching your cables and input/output impedance to 75ohms and use isolated BNC connectors if possible, and using a nice USB->SPDIF converter, preferably from an ungrounded laptop or similarly "clean" computer in that regard.
What do you think about those suggestions? Any other tips to consider? Any other particularly good sources of information on what you mentioned (general knowledge, mitigation, measurements, etc.)? I am not even sure what to listen for to detect said HF noise, though it might be readily apparent when I get a chance to listen.
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The software upsampling is the best way (only way) to move the unwanted signals to higher regions but defeats the purpose of NOS as the upsampling is similar to what an upsampling DAC does.
Another but quite difficult way is to have a NOS DAC that detects the sample frequency and adjusts its reconstruction filter (brickwall) to the used frequency.
I have not seen any DACs doing this, but is the only proper way IMO.
The HF garbage that has no relation to the audio may not be that problematic though.
It actually depends on the used amp and headphone IF there are negative effects, there may not be any.
When using SPDIF it is always best to use the proper connectors/cables and load.
Problem is that it is hard to detect if that is all O.K. without using expensive test equipment.
The capacative load of a simple oscilloscope for instance will influence the waveform and it may look good but without the probe may be different.
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Cool, thanks for the advice!
Edit: I was looking into a variety of software-based upsampling options, either to convert my files themselves into new ones or during playback through software, and I was most interested in the XXHighEnd application that was developed for a NOS DAC. The developer claims the following regarding his filter:
"Features the proprietary "Arc Prediction" filtering for NOS DACs, with THD figures as good as any filtering means, but without ringing and 100% equal phase."
He has some basic impulse measurements elsewhere on his site/forums that back up his claim, but I haven't seen much information on it outside of that.
The software is expensive (about $100), but I believe there's a trial for it. I'll give it a shot if so.
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Is the success of the Sabre a testament to the failure of Sigma-Delta? The hyperstream rectifies the flaws in S-D right? Or is the hyperstream kazoo? I mean the ES9023 sounds hardly special, I can't even tell the difference between the Hifimediy and the SanDisk Clip+ when used as a source.
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Is the success of the Sabre a testament to the failure of Sigma-Delta?
You're joking right? If I had yet to hear a single 'superior' Sabre product of the 5-10 I've heard so far, I wouldn't still be using a Wolfson. People are only buying anything labelled 'Sabre' because of DSD marketing. Resonnence can't even get Sabre right. Its success or failure is directly tied into the state of DSD. SQ has nothing to do with it.
Look at the DaVinci DAC. Even LH had to disguise the Sabre's signature which is probably the best way to use it. It was not even their first choice for the Geek line of products.
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Edit: I was looking into a variety of software-based upsampling options, either to convert my files themselves into new ones or during playback through software, and I was most interested in the XXHighEnd application that was developed for a NOS DAC. The developer claims the following regarding his filter:
"Features the proprietary "Arc Prediction" filtering for NOS DACs, with THD figures as good as any filtering means, but without ringing and 100% equal phase."
He has some basic impulse measurements elsewhere on his site/forums that back up his claim, but I haven't seen much information on it outside of that.
The software is expensive (about $100), but I believe there's a trial for it. I'll give it a shot if so.
Using a better upsampling algorithm than the one embedded in chipsets could be a good reason to use upsampling.
How much better and how audible that is remains to be seen of course.
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That's another downside I read about as well, which does worry me. What most others have recommended is upsampling your music via software, running 16/96 at least (24/176 if available), matching your cables and input/output impedance to 75ohms and use isolated BNC connectors if possible, and using a nice USB->SPDIF converter, preferably from an ungrounded laptop or similarly "clean" computer in that regard.
You should be doing most of that stuff regardless of what kind of DAC you are using. In most cases software upsampling is generally preferable to hardware upsampling, especially if the DAC is using the popular (and shitty) SRC 4192. A really nice USB > S/Pdif converter costs a considerable amount of money, so you may want to think about whether it's worth getting one, or if you might be better served by a DAC that has a properly designed and implemented USB input.
A laptop on battery is better than nothing, but it's still far from ideal. Most give you little control over the CPU clock, and so you're stick with either having SpeedStep bounce it up and down constantly, or running it full blast, which laptops are not designed to do. You would be much better served by putting a mini-ITX board into a box, setting the CPU to run at a fixed clock, and powering it via a Pico-PSU, preferably fed by a LPS. Try to avoid any cooling fans if at all possible, and use a USB card instead of a motherboard port. PPA studio makes one with a reasonable price, or you can go with the Adnaco S3B.
The JCAT USB card is likely to be better than anything currently available, but there's still no firm production date yet (or price).
(http://highfidelity.pl/foto_testy/1311/as2013ok/78.jpg)
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Is the success of the Sabre a testament to the failure of Sigma-Delta? The hyperstream rectifies the flaws in S-D right? Or is the hyperstream kazoo? I mean the ES9023 sounds hardly special, I can't even tell the difference between the Hifimediy and the SanDisk Clip+ when used as a source.
Esoteric has it right. Eight 1704s in the D-01, or Sixteen AKM4399s in the D-02. Unless you're making your own DACs like dCS or MSB, that's still the state of the art. The Sabre is a hype machine, not much else.
Audio Note DACs are perhaps the ultimate "warm" sounding DACs on the market, God help them if they ever replace the AD1865 R2Rs they use with Sabres.
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Thanks for the advice, Dave! The Metrum Quad + PSU I found is also bundled with a JKSPDIF MKIII. It is a battery-powered USB->SPDIF converter. The anecdotal/subjective reports for it are generally quite good, but it would be fantastic if anyone around here has had a chance to try it and could offer impressions. If not, I'm sure it will be better than nothing. I'll be sure to try the Metrum without it anyway.
With this converter, would using my desktop PC be fine? It's an overclocked gaming rig, but the CPU (i5 2500K) is locked at 4.5GHz (1.35V). GTX 780 GPU, not sure how much problems high-end GPUs cause. Antec EarthWatts 650W Green PSU...decent, not great. I know that no PSU I'd need to support this (and future SLI) will have the lowest ripple ever.
It also just so happens that I can control my laptop clock speeds. Setting a fixed clock and voltage would be no issue. :) But, again, desktop is preferred due to the HDD size and for convenience, though I'm not sure how much the converter would help.
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Thanks for the advice, Dave! The Metrum Quad + PSU I found is also bundled with a JKSPDIF MKIII. It is a battery-powered USB->SPDIF converter. The anecdotal/subjective reports for it are generally quite good, but it would be fantastic if anyone around here has had a chance to try it and could offer impressions. If not, I'm sure it will be better than nothing. I'll be sure to try the Metrum without it anyway.
With this converter, would using my desktop PC be fine? It's an overclocked gaming rig, but the CPU (i5 2500K) is locked at 4.5GHz (1.35V). GTX 780 GPU, not sure how much problems high-end GPUs cause. Antec EarthWatts 650W Green PSU...decent, not great. I know that no PSU I'd need to support this (and future SLI) will have the lowest ripple ever.
As far as I know, the JK MKIII converter is pretty good. Not in the same league as the Off-Ramp obviously, but at least as good as anything else at that price point. It's been my experience that general purpose computers make very bad music servers. Running lots of software means that things are constantly vying for the CPU's attention. Normally this doesn't matter as you don't even notice it, but when you're going for the lowest possible latency/jitter, it's a problem.
Again, I would suggest a dedicated, fanless mini-ITX box. Cooling fans create an incredible amount of noise, and I'm not talking about audible noise, I'm talking about DC crap that's ultimately fed back into the system, and there's no way you can run an overclocked gaming rig with a TOTL video card without any fans in it.
If you run something like Vortexbox on your ITX box instead of Windows, there's no need for even a remotely powerful CPU. An integrated Atom board like the DN2800MT is more than enough. Put one in a box with laptop hdd or SSD and you're good to go. All you need to power it is a $20 12V brick, and it leaves the door open for future battery or linear supplies. Less than 20mV on each rail for an ATX power supply is approaching state of the art. A good linear will be less than 1mV, and if you only need 12V and about 2A, the price can be kept reasonable.
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If I was going to build a dedicated music server on a tight budget, I'd probably go for RaspyFi, its an audio oriented distro for Raspberry Pi. The board is powered by a standard usb power supply, so any external battery power supply would work. It doesn't have any fans.
BUT that doesn't work with the HiFace/JKSPDIF because the thing requires drivers to be installed. As for sound impressions, when I introduced the JKSPDIF mk3 into my system it made the presentation a bit more laid back, with a wider sense of space. This was compared the CD transport directly into the DAC (24/96 FLAC rips were used to compare). The jkspdif was a very welcome addition which I used all the time.
Randomly, I'm annoyed at m2tech now. They still don't have drivers for OSX Mavericks so my unit is essentially a brick.
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Running lots of software means that things are constantly vying for the CPU's attention. Normally this doesn't matter as you don't even notice it, but when you're going for the lowest possible latency/jitter, it's a problem.
Again, I would suggest a dedicated, fanless mini-ITX box. Cooling fans create an incredible amount of noise, and I'm not talking about audible noise, I'm talking about DC crap that's ultimately fed back into the system, and there's no way you can run an overclocked gaming rig with a TOTL video card without any fans in it. reasonable.
Realistically, how much of a measurable improvement in latency and jitter will I see if I moved to a system like you are suggesting just due to software/hardware load? How much of an improvement just due to the PSU? Or, how about the removal of other components, like fans?
I have seen one resource that used personal measurements to make the claim that a full 100% CPU + GPU load on a decent machine (3770K and GTX570) makes little to no difference in jitter. Link: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/03/measurements-hunt-for-load-induced.html
Now, I have no idea who this guy is or how reputable his claims and results are, nor have I yet done extensive research on these topics (I just happened to stumble on this due to a measurement he did of a cheap NOS DAC). I'm also not saying I necessarily doubt you either, Dave. But, based on this alone, I would like to see additional resources and measurements that either support or refute his claims that CPU and GPU load have little to do with jitter before assuming either side as correct. One of his commenters linked to some measurements of the DacMagic, I believe, and demonstrated how running USB straight from the motherboard to DAC gave considerably worse measurements than running it through a USB->SPDIF converter (I only glanced over it, so my details might be wrong). That test was not checking for the effects of software/hardware load, I think, nor was it testing the differences between a desktop and, say, a mini-ITX setup like you've mentioned.
If there are any other particularly good sources of information (especially measurements) on any of these factors and how they relate to jitter, latency, noise, etc., I would love to check them out! I've tried to do some research on how computer components and a desktop setup as a whole can influence audio reproduction, but I've found it more difficult than expected to turn up decent results...All I generally get is blanket responses that, "Desktops are a bad place for audio," (OK, why?) or something a more helpful and detailed like you posted - Not quite as helpful and informative as measurements and more technical explanations (even if I don't immediately understand them), but still helpful nonetheless. I like to understand small details and technicalities when possible...how things work and work together...The concepts themselves make sense, but I'm interested enough to learn deeper information.
For now, because I already made a large purchase, I'll look more into using my laptop as a dedicated music server from its battery. I can probably underclock and undervolt it to a point where it no longer needs the fan to be on for cooling and lock it at that. It sounds like with the drivers I'll need and the software I want to try (XXHighEnd), I'll be limited to Windows. I do want to learn as much about all this as possible, because I likely will end up moving to a more dedicated setup like you suggest.
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^The purpose of capacitors, op-amps and power supply is to harness, clean up, filter and amplify, upscale, sharpen etc. an electrical signal.
I'd imagine an external DAC with features such as... - separate fancy transformers / circuitry for analog and digital
- 'high-end' capacitors which subjectively sound better, due to the cleaner way in which they transfer the electricity
- 'high-end' op-amps with really low distortion, high slew rate, high capacitive load driving, high mA output etc. etc.
- very low jitter
- low radio frequency interference
- low electromagnetic interference
- fancy "virtual ground" circuitry etc.
...all result in a cleaner electrical signal than what a desktop computer can surmise, unless the desktop computer takes all of these into account, and anything else which I didn't write. In brief a desktop computer has internal noise.
Subjectivity isn't reliable but sometimes people unanimously prefer a certain component, such as LME49720HA, instead of LME49720, the only difference afaik is the metal design instead of the plastic, but the internal circuit is identical and the lab measurements are identical afaik, yet the consensus is still that the LME49720HA is better for reasons not detected in the lab data.
The lab data measurements are in ideal situations, so when something measures 0.0001 or 9.9991 in the .pdf, in real world settings it's more likely to be 0.001 and 9.991 etc.
I recall a DAC/Amp which was meant to be slotted into towers and it was really noisy in the first version and then they did something to remove the noise in the second version, which is the version I had, but it sounded dull / cloudy somehow, like there was no rawness or clarity in it, I think too much filtering can cause side-effects or remove that rawness even if the end result is cleaner in certain ways.
For example a row of 1000 capacitors will clean up the electrical signal, while it will also enhance any peculiarity / interference within that type of capacitor.
I don't know why the CM6631 chip sounds better than the others I've heard, I also don't know why 64-bit floating point sounds better than 16-bit integer in media player software, I listen first and investigate later.
I can see why an external DAC theoretically sounds better than an internal sound-card in several aspects, unless that sound-card took all theoretical advantages a DAC has into account. In a nutshell I'd suppose the primary differences are in fancy power supply, electrical noise, EMI and physical space.
I'm not a DAC or sound-card designer, these are just some thoughts, and I don't think the designers care very much for forums like these, or when they do they may hesitate to comment, since it feels like intellectual property which has took them some time to figure out, or they will show their flaws, or they will just spend a lot of time writing with no clear destination in mind.
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Realistically, how much of a measurable improvement in latency and jitter will I see if I moved to a system like you are suggesting just due to software/hardware load? How much of an improvement just due to the PSU? Or, how about the removal of other components, like fans?
It's a good question. Both the hardware and software side of a PC based music server make a difference, but IME the hardware matters more than the software, ie you'll get more of a boost feeding the system from a LPS or 12V battery as opposed to using Fidelizer on Windows or using JPlay in hibernation mode. That doesn't mean that software doesn't matter at all though, depending on the setup the improvement with Fidelizer can be considerable, and even just running the trial, JPlay seems to sound better than Foobar/JRiver, even though the authors of those programs swear that it's not the case.
Rather than attempt to strip down a full bore OS like Windows (and pay 100 Euro for JPlay), I prefer the Vortexbox/MPD approach. Vortexbox is based on a version of Fedora Linux that's already been stripped essentially bare, the only UI is a command line. Everything else is done through a remote web interface. When used with mPod or MPDroid, it bypasses the Linux equivalent of the Windows kmixer (ALSA) and you get a nice clean low latency bit-perfect output. It doesn't support as many USB interfaces as Windows does, but most Class 2 devices will work straight out of the box, and they recently added support for M2Tech as well.
The amount of DC ripple and noise coming from motherboard USB ports is easily measurable, and it's a hell of a lot. Most DACs and converters don't have perfect electrical isolation, so that junk ultimately ends up in the sound. That's why the second most important thing after the main power supply is the USB output card. You can keep tweaking endlessly after that, but those two items should definitely be done. Probably the most extreme server I've seen is the one Paul Pang uses. The power supply is a custom modified LPS powered Pico with "audio grade" Molex and SATA leads, and the internal drive is a CF card adapted to act as a hard drive because Paul thinks that sounds better than a regular SSD. I think he's a bit nuts, but not any more so than the "bits are bits" crowd that have zero understanding of how digital audio actually works, but think they know everything.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IEPGBTNUm1Q/UlDvh8MQUUI/AAAAAAAAA_0/1pzGN6-BbYM/s640/PICT7981.JPG)
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I think he's a bit nuts, but not any more so than the "bits are bits" crowd that have zero understanding of how digital audio actually works, but think they know everything.
How does digital audio actually work ? :)p17
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It doesn't.... you needs some analogs.
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How does digital audio actually work ? :)p17
;D It's not just getting the right bit, but when you get it. That's what those folks don't understand. They think USB DACs and external USB hard drives are the same thing, so they make statements like "my word document will always show up on my USB hard drive, so why do I need any of this shit?" That's true. The word document will always get there, even with a $5 USB cable (provided its less than about 15 feet long). That's because hard drives operate in block mode, which is error checked by the OS. USB DACs use isochronous streaming mode, which operates in real time and has no error checking. That's why you don't want a USB keyboard and a USB hard drive on the same hub as the DAC, it really messes with that. Ideally, you don't want a USB keyboard or USB hard drive at all.
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Then they will answer "Okay, I'll transfer my 700mb word document at 1411 kilobytes per second via ASIO with 1ms latency, every t will be dashed in any setting".
I think there are more differences, such as reading a word document does not allow you to hear electricity.
Some people think noise is either audible or inaudible, it's not like that, noise you can't 'hear' can still alter / warp sound, for example like a foggy mist on a landscape.
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So Dave, would running a super stripped down version of Arch on an ARM board not be the best option? turn off literally everything but MPD and go to town? I would think that would have the least latency. Ive been thinking of doing exactly that for a while, but i havent been able to find a case that would hold the board and an ssd for the music. Otherwise I would have tried it already
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;D It's not just getting the right bit, but when you get it. That's what those folks don't understand. They think USB DACs and external USB hard drives are the same thing, so they make statements like "my word document will always show up on my USB hard drive, so why do I need any of this shit?" That's true. The word document will always get there, even with a $5 USB cable (provided its less than about 15 feet long). That's because hard drives operate in block mode, which is error checked by the OS. USB DACs use isochronous streaming mode, which operates in real time and has no error checking. That's why you don't want a USB keyboard and a USB hard drive on the same hub as the DAC, it really messes with that. Ideally, you don't want a USB keyboard or USB hard drive at all.
Thanks, Dave, I greatly appreciate all the help and information!
So, are there not DACs just for music that don't operate in real time? Would that not be a possible way to mitigate many of these issues?
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So, are there not DACs just for music that don't operate in real time? Would that not be a possible way to mitigate many of these issues?
CD transport
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Ah, I knew that other usb devices could cause issues, but didn't know it was due to different transfer modes. I always thought it was due to power usage and loading the usb bus (maybe it's a bit of both?)
So DACs+externalHD = bad news... but what about those wireless hard drives that are coming out now. Any potential shortcomings there?
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Hansxxxxxx, of course a nice DAP will avoid all the noise issues a laptop has, it just needs to deal with firmware and software a little.
I think the HiFi MA9 has very nice looking hardware - http://www.hifi-et.com/hifi/about-ma9
The only part I don't like is the BUF634, I emailed them asking if they can remove it and they said they'd consider it.
If DaveBSC has any comments I'm listening.
(http://www.hifi-et.com/images/MA9/descrption/MA9.jpg)
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So Dave, would running a super stripped down version of Arch on an ARM board not be the best option? turn off literally everything but MPD and go to town? I would think that would have the least latency. Ive been thinking of doing exactly that for a while, but i havent been able to find a case that would hold the board and an ssd for the music. Otherwise I would have tried it already
Not sure. Linux on ARM is tricky. I prefer an integrated Atom board, everything works out of the box.
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So DACs+externalHD = bad news... but what about those wireless hard drives that are coming out now. Any potential shortcomings there?
Depends how you are getting the wireless. A USB Wifi adapter is probably worse than anything else you could use. A wireless ethernet "media bridge" though is no problem, especially if you move it a decent distance away from the server and use shielded twisted pair ethernet cable instead of the UTP stuff that comes in the box with your router. Of course you can go nuts and use one of those Acoustic Revive LAN isolator cables, but I'm not sure how necessary that is.
Network based storage is not really necessary anyway though, just use a different interface than USB. eSATA hard drives are fine. You could also put in a FireWire card and use that.
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So, are there not DACs just for music that don't operate in real time? Would that not be a possible way to mitigate many of these issues?
DACs with reclocking technology like the PWD will go much farther at mitigating these issues than a more typical design, but they can't (or at least the reasonably priced ones can't) eliminate them entirely. Just spending a ton of cash is also not a guarantee of any results. All of the Meitner designed DACs including the new EMM DAC2X have very poor USB input implementations. The PWD even in "NativeX" mode can be beaten by the Off-Ramp, and Steve believes that even the Overdrive's native USB input isn't quite as good as the Off-Ramp.
It's possible that Esoteric or dCS or Stahl-tek may have cracked this problem with their DACs that cost tens of thousands, I just don't know. I think it makes a lot more sense though to try and fix the problem at the source than try to clean it up at the DAC end by spending the price of a Honda Accord.
Paul Pang's server that I pictured a few posts back would not cost that much to build. The PPA modified Pico PSU and USB output card are both under $200 each. The motherboard is a regular off the shelf board. He soldered in a TCXO clock for the board (again, a bit nuts) and he's using "audio grade" SATA cables, that's about it. If you use an Atom instead of a Core series CPU, and you use a 19V linear supply, you'd need around 2A max. That can be done for maybe $500 or so, much less if you use an industrial type of LPS.
Connect that to a DAC with a well designed USB input or an Off-Ramp, and I think you'll be able to give even $10K+ CD transports a real fight.
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I see, I see. I was looking at some components earlier to see what I'd be looking at in terms of cost. I've got to worry about paying off my credit card now first, though. :'(
Until then, is there any chance my laptop's USB out on battery will be worse than my gaming desktop's USB ports? I only have the motherboard and front-panel ports. I'll lock the clock speed and voltage, hopefully so that the fan will not be needed for cooling purposes.
Update: I locked my Acer laptop w/ A6-3420M (quad core) at 1.4GHz, 0.9125V. At idle, the fan never turns on and CPU temps stay cool according to HWMonitor. I did not test music playback. I also disabled the dedicated GPU, network adapters, bluetooth, etc.
Update 2: Going to entirely re-purpose the laptop for audio playback. Re-applied thermal paste to the CPU and disconnected the fan entirely. These APUs are really hardy, and since I won't be doing anything on the machine besides music playback, passive cooling won't be an issue (it'll still run cooler than gaming with the fan!). At idle, it sits at a comfortable 40-50C depending on whether a background process randomly kicked off or room temperature conditions.
Though I don't have the means to test the USB ports, I did test RightMark with the build-in line-out/HPO and mic-in to see if I'd get any measurable changes from from with PSU to no PSU, stock CPU clocks to locked clocks, and other changes I mentioned. The results aren't going to be great either way, but the noise and distortion graphs on all accounts looked much cleaner after all mentioned "tweaks" were applied (almost all random spikes were smoothed out).
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Until then, is there any chance my laptop's USB out on battery will be worse than my gaming desktop's USB ports? I only have the motherboard and front-panel ports. I'll lock the clock speed and voltage, hopefully so that the fan will not be needed for cooling purposes.
I am wondering this as well. I have a decent pc for gaming (both desktop and laptop) , but how much are the signal to the dac influenced by the internal components of the computer?
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Though I don't have the means to test the USB ports, I did test RightMark with the build-in line-out/HPO and mic-in to see if I'd get any measurable changes from from with PSU to no PSU, stock CPU clocks to locked clocks, and other changes I mentioned. The results aren't going to be great either way, but the noise and distortion graphs on all accounts looked much cleaner after all mentioned "tweaks" were applied (almost all random spikes were smoothed out).
Nice! Try running Fidelizer, it's a free program that applies the same tweaks as those in the "configure W7/8 for audio" guides, but they are all reversible with a simple restart.
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I am wondering this as well. I have a decent pc for gaming (both desktop and laptop) , but how much are the signal to the dac influenced by the internal components of the computer?
The noise from your computer will affect the sound of your external DAC up to 5%, perhaps 10%, AFAIK.
The choice of external DAC will affect the sound of your external DAC over 6000 percent.
What I mean is, is if you intend to invest in fancy power filtering peripherals, you could consider some french fries on the side as well and try a different DAC flavour.
Don't look at the price, this DAC has thousands of comments and praise on diyaudio, and it taught me a lot, just replace NE5532 with AD797.
www.ebay.com/itm/Finished-2496-AK4396-CS8416-DAC-With-Transformer-case-/121144790581
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Man, you guys really hate the sabre dac chip.
Still loving my 9018 based X-Sabre. Nothing else I've heard sounds close (except other Sabre based dacs like Concero (9023)). Some day I'll hear a Master 7 or something pirate approved. Until then I'll enjoy my plank straddling position.
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Nice! Try running Fidelizer, it's a free program that applies the same tweaks as those in the "configure W7/8 for audio" guides, but they are all reversible with a simple restart.
Good find! That's so much more convenient than doing it yourself and not having it revert with a restart. Unfortunately, I can't run the 2nd checkbox (lists multi-core CPUs) because the software I use to lock my CPU's clock speed and voltage relies on something that option disables or messes with. Oh well!
Metrum Quad and JKSPDIF came in yesterday morning. Only got maybe 20-30 minutes in total to set them up, fiddle, listen, etc.
I'm actually not sure which version of the JKSPDIF I have. The eBay listing said MK3, though at one point MK2 was also listed. I'm not sure which of those is incorrect. It certainly looks like the MK3 unit, except it only has one green button on the front. No flip switch or two buttons (green and red) mentioned in the user guide. I've read the MK3 had at least a couple different iterations in terms of front-panel layout and buttons. It also doesn't appear to support 24/176 but does support 16/176. Seemed odd, but maybe that's normal.
After going from my desktop setup (gaming rig, SE-200PCI sound card as DAC, either vintage receiver or new Vali for amp) to the new setup (laptop on battery with tweaks, JKSPDIF, Metrum Quad, Vali or whatever other amp), I think it's pretty clear that...I don't have the ears to make definitive statements between the two, assuming the same amp is used. I was able to tell that 16/41 with no software upsampling sounded a bit more rolled-off at the top, but I also didn't hear much of a change going to 16/176 with software upsampling. But, I had limited time to play with it, so we'll see if anything changes once I get more opportunities to listen.
I am getting a really weird, intermittent effect with the new setup. I'll be listening to music, and all sounds normal. All of a sudden, the music will start to sound much more diffuse, like everything quickly spread out and moved away from me, before slowly returning back to normal. I did have the JKSPDIF plugged into a USB port to charge while I had the main input hooked up to another port, but that's the only thing I could think of that might have caused it.
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Anyone here heard the Wadia 121? I might be able to trade for one.
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A good linear will be less than 1mV, and if you only need 12V and about 2A, the price can be kept reasonable.
I'd make sure you can keep power draw under 24W under load before committing to this. You're worse off with a solution that leaves your machine underpowered than just picking up an AX760i/AX860i.
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The noise from your computer will affect the sound of your external DAC up to 5%, perhaps 10%, AFAIK.
The choice of external DAC will affect the sound of your external DAC over 6000 percent.
What I mean is, is if you intend to invest in fancy power filtering peripherals, you could consider some french fries on the side as well and try a different DAC flavour.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. If you plug a bog standard PC into a Meitner MA-1 via USB, the sound will be pretty mediocre, certainly not what you would expect for the $7K or so that the Meitner costs. Its USB input has no galvanic isolation and is powered from the Vbus. That means all of the crap that comes in from the PC goes right through and out the other end, ultimately to your speakers or headphones. There are certainly DACs that do it much better than the Metiners and EMMs, but choosing to spend thousands more on your DAC rather than hundreds more on optimizing your PC IMO is just dumb.
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A good linear will be less than 1mV, and if you only need 12V and about 2A, the price can be kept reasonable.
I'd make sure you can keep power draw under 24W under load before committing to this. You're worse off with a solution that leaves your machine underpowered than just picking up an AX760i/AX860i.
Yeah, those kinds of linear supplies are made for Atom boxes, not full fledged machines. A DN2800MT won't use much more than about 20W or so. Hynes can make multi-rail supplies that can handle much higher powered machines, but for a lot of money. If you're just using it to play music, you have to wonder what the point is. Well other than running JPlay, which for whatever reason demands mega processing power.
You could also feed one of those new NUC boards with a linear, they use ULV processors so you'd have more power than an Atom while still being able to get away with a 3 or 4A supply.
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Whatever that issue was that I noticed the other day didn't seem to happen again when I listened again earlier today. I'll not worry about it for now.
I also tried out XXHighEnd. One of the worst interfaces I've ever had the displeasure of using, but initial listening impressions seemed good. I think I like the upsampling methods it uses better than what JRMC offers, but I'd sure hope that's the case since it has to process the music for a while before it will play it! Seems like it might be a good match with the Metrum, though I'm assuming the claimed benefits of the software are not exclusive to any type of DAC or audio setup. I'd be curious to know what others think of XXHighEnd.
Overall setup sounded good with the UHA-6S and modded Tascam TH-02, but I've not had enough time to give it a really serious listen or compare with my other gear.
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You could also feed one of those new NUC boards with a linear, they use ULV processors so you'd have more power than an Atom while still being able to get away with a 3 or 4A supply.
I was going to recommend the NUC solutions, actually. I believe the i5 Haswell NUC is still under 30W @ load. The problem you run into is that CPU/GPU load simulation never actually hits peak unless you're running something nuts like IBT as well. My redundant PFsense boxes have a "load" draw of 29W (instanced windows with 3DMark and Passmark both running) but will spike to ~40W on occasion (literally maybe once every 4 months for less than a second). The only way I can simulate this is with typical load testing + IBT running. Both are using PicoPSUs, but the main was optimized for ~30W w/36W spikes. I was switching over to the redundant router every once in awhile until I moved to a larger PSU.
With anything from the haswell NUC line you'd be fine with a 19V 3A supply or a 3.5A if you wanted to be safe (the bundled brick is rated at this output). I'm actually contemplating one for my bedside rig as the logic supply fanless case is $130 and tiny enough that I could mount it behind my nightstand and get it out of the way.
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I was actually looking at the NUC, but I was afraid I would be less of a man if I didn't get one of those dedicated USB port cards.
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I was actually looking at the NUC, but I was afraid I would be less of a man if I didn't get one of those dedicated USB port cards.
That's the rub. You can still use the Empirical Short Block or the Ultra-Fi filter or the iUSB, (or a Y-type USB cable with a 5V battery) but the JCAT card will likely beat all of those, and without an expansion slot, you can't use it.
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How much would that really help seeing that I already have the JKSPDIF? The description of the JKSPDIF didn't leave me 100% clear what the unit would and would not "fix" aside from the most obvious aspects.
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Didn't realize there were other cards with separate inputs for 5v. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA2690ZB7708&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=6152991&SID=1gtgdsvhy1tov it might not have a lot of the doohickeys the other audiophile cards have but do you think you mighty get most of it with a nice linear supply for this guy?
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How much would that really help seeing that I already have the JKSPDIF? The description of the JKSPDIF didn't leave me 100% clear what the unit would and would not "fix" aside from the most obvious aspects.
Since the JKSPDIF is battery powered, devices that clean up the Vbus line like the iUSB and AQVOX are unlikely to do much of anything. I'm not sure exactly what the Ultra-Fi filter does, so it may or may not do anything. If your source is desktop computer with a grounded AC connection, the Short Block may help quite a bit. If it's a laptop on battery power, it probably won't do much. All of these devices are noise reducers, not jitter reducers. That's what the cards are for.
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Didn't realize there were other cards with separate inputs for 5v. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA2690ZB7708&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-na-_-na-_-na&cm_sp=&AID=10446076&PID=6152991&SID=1gtgdsvhy1tov it might not have a lot of the doohickeys the other audiophile cards have but do you think you mighty get most of it with a nice linear supply for this guy?
Ah but there's more to these cards than just external power inputs. The PPA card is using a very high quality TCXO clock and a custom output transformer - you're not going to find that on a $25ish USB expansion card. I think you'll get a much bigger boost by spending $129 on the PPA card and running it from the internal power supply than spending $29 on an off the shelf expansion card and $100 on a LPS.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-I5jzwttsB_A/UhswVYWJh5I/AAAAAAAAA3E/_zg_4k4IWYk/s640/PICT7919.JPG)
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Hm, I guess in theory it could only help running a good USB card out to the JKSPDIF, but given it's already supposed to do a good job reducing jitter, I'm going to think on it for a while and probably not make one of these dedicated audio PCs a super high priority. I just wish I could get better hard numbers and measurements on the JKSPDIF.
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I find it interesting that manufacturers of 'miracle devices' never publish figures or J-test plots that show how much jitter is reduced.
That should be easy to do and provide definitive proof.
Maybe some manufacturers do but I haven't seen it yet (not really looking either).
In those devices converting USB to SPDIF, of course, it all depends on how well the DAC behind it can reject jitter and handle level differences / echoes.
Not everyone is pestered by common mode currents in audio setups and it is a mistake to believe that laptops running off batteries are free of common mode currents as well.
cleaning up a USB power supply may or may not do anything depending on HOW the receiver end is decoupled/buffered and how high the USB voltage is.
a very clean USB +5V (clean opposite reference/ground) but with loads of common mode garbage on it (very common for PC) can still be very crappy and cause havoc further down.
it's really very dark matter comparable to cables and stuff IMHO and hard to get right as what works for person A doesn't work for person C or D and vice versa.
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I find it interesting that manufacturers of 'miracle devices' never publish figures or J-test plots that show how much jitter is reduced.
That should be easy to do and provide definitive proof.
Not everyone is pestered by common mode currents in audio setups and it is a mistake to believe that laptops running off batteries are free of common mode currents as well.
cleaning up a USB power supply may or may not do anything depending on HOW the receiver end is decoupled/buffered and how high the USB voltage is.
a very clean USB +5V (clean opposite reference/ground) but with loads of common mode garbage on it (very common for PC) can still be very crappy and cause havoc further down.
it's really very dark matter comparable to cables and stuff IMHO and hard to get right as what works for person A doesn't work for person C or D and vice versa.
It's not as easy as you might think. Steve from Empirical only began posting jitter plots well into the cycle of the Off-Ramp 4, after he spent a considerable amount of money on some very high-end test equipment. It was only then that he was able to discover just exactly what the output of the OR4 looked like, and used that info to cut it from around 150ps PP to around 40ps with a new output transformer. He just recently posted the results for the Dynamo LPS in place of the stock OR5 wall-wart. With the linear supply, the OR5 is somewhere around 10ps which is approaching the limits of his test equipment.
Just for the sake of comparison, more ordinary S/Pdif converters are in the 300-500ps range, and even relatively high-end studio sound cards from Lynx and RME are closer to 500-800ps.
Agreed on the rest. A battery powered converter like the JKSPDIF that doesn't use any Vbus power at least in theory shouldn't get much out of cleaner 5V supplies, but the common mode path is unavoidable, which is where the Short Block may help. The only way to cut the ground path from PC to USB device is to use the Adnaco S3B. Of course a new path is created at the receiver end, but that has no relation to the PC (well assuming the receiver is on a different AC circuit anyway), and there's nothing stopping you from using a battery on that end.
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I wanted to get a decent line-in recording device just for the fun of measuring anything I get in. My computer just gives too much noise and distortion in measurements (very spiky and "dirty"), even with a good sound card. Anything onboard is even worse. I found someone who tested the line-in capabilities of the Creative SB1240 (X-Fi HD USB), and it looked pretty good. Saw loopback measurements as well that were pretty good, much cleaner than from my sound card! Other cheap options for now were the Focusrite 2i2, but it had its own issues with higher sampling and/or bit rates, or the E-MU 0404, which apparently has poor driver support post-Vista. It should do well for entry-level measurements, or enough for me to have fun.
However, I did try measuring the Metrum Quad DAC as best I could until the unit gets here. I won't post the plots because they weren't very clean, and I know a lot of that is caused by my desktop setup from which I did the measurement. I haven't been able to find Metrum measurements, so I thought it would be interesting.
Frequency response is what you expect. Close to -3dB, IIRC, at 20KHz on 16/44.1, though some roll off is due to the A/DC. 20KHz was about -1dB at 16/96. Slight bass roll-off, but I tried it on the desktop's onboard line-in, and it showed a flat response to 20KHz. Not sure which to trust more, but again, I'm thinking the A/DC on the sound card rolls off a bit at either end.
Noise and distortion were around -93-94dB, but not super clean (cleaner at 96KHz). THD and IMD were around 0.04% or 0.05%, though noticeably "dirty." I believe this is to be expected at 16/41, but my sound card was showing some very odd effects at 96KHz that I want to re-test for since my computer already makes my measurements look gross. Stereo crosstalk around -84dB.
Once I get that Creative unit in, I'll get some better measurements and post them. The A/DC process will have many less limitations. I'm even planning on trying analyzing playback through different software and software upsampling options, just to see if it makes a measurable difference in what limited options RightMark offers. Any other free measurement tools around?
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You can try ARTA free version to get some IMD stuff going on. For spectrum stuff its pretty good. Possible to run into problems calibrating ARTA. I would use a multimeter to double check the levels.
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Cool, thanks! I'd heard of that before but forgot about it. Hopefully USPS isn't delayed by the weather here tomorrow.
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Tons of impessions around here on the Empirical Audio Off Ramp, but how about their Overdrive dac?
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Tons of impessions around here on the Empirical Audio Off Ramp, but how about their Overdrive dac?
I've only heard it at shows through speakers. It sounded pretty good but I haven't been able to compare it using my normal control methods, so can't say more than that.
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I'd be interested in hearing people's experiences with USB cables (as opposed to "thoughts" - I've probably read every possible thought on cables by now 8) ).
Do you use printer throw-ins ? Monoprice ? Cheap audiophile ? Expensive audiophile ?
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I use short certified USB2/3 cables. They are inexpensive. They work as specified. Never had a problem, which I cannot say for audiophile USB cables...
(a good starting point is to check if there's the official USB logo on the connectors, and if the connectors are standard USB connectors as per spec, so no cheap shrink-wrap..)
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I'd be interested in hearing people's experiences with USB cables (as opposed to "thoughts" - I've probably read every possible thought on cables by now 8) ).
Do you use printer throw-ins ? Monoprice ? Cheap audiophile ? Expensive audiophile ?
It's not a question of cheap printer or audiophile, but a question of which period. Price, classification have nothing to do with anything.
From what I have read and experienced, a length of 0.6m - 1.8m (roughly speaking) is one of the most important things to control impedance matching, jitter, reflections. Any longer and shorter, things usually 'seem' to get worse objectively and subjectively. So impedance control and perhaps isolation of the power leg would be prime considerations regardless of printer or audiophile and how much the cost is.
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Tons of impessions around here on the Empirical Audio Off Ramp, but how about their Overdrive dac?
The Overdrive is very expensive. The SE version fully loaded used to run $8,000, now it's $6,750 because of a large discount on the Hynes regulator upgrade for the output stage. At that kind of price obviously not a lot of people are going to own one. Every time I've heard it I've been really impressed by it. The USB input is functionally the same as the OR5, and the design is really quite unique with everything compacted as much as humanly possible for the shortest signal paths. It's pretty much the opposite of a lot of DACs which have a sparsely populated board with a few caps and a little toroid off in the corner, and the rest is acres of empty enclosure space.
Steve believes he has everything in his class (Calyx, Weiss, Bricasti, Meitner, etc) beat.
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I treat USB cables like most of my cables; I look for good materials and solid construction at a reasonable price.
I've not heard any differences when swapping USB cables, other than when I had a bad cable in the system that caused absolute havoc for a considerable time until I tracked it down as the source of my digital playback hell. For the record, that cable was long and cheap...
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I'd be interested in hearing people's experiences with USB cables (as opposed to "thoughts" - I've probably read every possible thought on cables by now 8) ).
I use PPA Studio cables. Seems like Paul has discontinued the entry level ones, but the TOTL is $299. The stuff from Cardas, Audioquest, Kimber et all is all crap, those guys couldn't design a USB cable if their lives depended on it.
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So who (in general) should we be buying usb cables from then? (and for that matter, coax/toslink cables)
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Personally I'm a fan of Wireworld. Their Starlight cable is one of the best I've heard for the price.
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I like Blue Jeans Cable for a lot of stuff. They seem to use a lot of Belden cables, but they also have some custom products. I was very pleased with their custom RCA cable and have some digital coax cables on the way (BNC-to-BCN). Doesn't look like they sell anything other than generic USB cables, though.
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So who (in general) should we be buying usb cables from then? (and for that matter, coax/toslink cables)
For USB, PPA, JCAT (made by PPA to the specs of the JPlay devs) Revelation Audio Labs, EntreQ. Digital coax cables are not complicated at all (it's a coaxial cable). You can just buy some Neotech NEVD-2001 at around $24 a foot and make one yourself assuming you have any talent with a soldering iron. That will be at least as good as anyone else's solid silver digital coax up to at least $500 list. Put some Oyaide SLSB BNC connectors on each end and you're good to go. Maybe not as good as a Stealth Varidig Sextet, but you're talking $75 for a typical 1 meter length. If you don't want to make it yourself, get a VH Audio Pulsar AG or a Revelation Audio digital coax.
USB cables are a whole different ball of wax, and the big guys (Wireworld included IME) seem to have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
I'm not a believer in spending any kind of real money on a toslink cable - toslink is a sucky format and should only be used as a last resort. Just buy something that uses glass fibers instead of plastic.
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EntreQ
So, if I got a USB cable and an earth cable from these guys, could I just connect the earth cable to the grounding post on the back of the BPT I got from you, or would I need one of those fancy dedicated grounding boxes for it to be worthwhile?
Sorry if that's a really dumb question. I know little about any of this >_>
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the big guys (Wireworld included IME) seem to have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
Just out of idle curiosity, what's your factual basis for that statement?
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So, if I got a USB cable and an earth cable from these guys, could I just connect the earth cable to the grounding post on the back of the BPT I got from you, or would I need one of those fancy dedicated grounding boxes for it to be worthwhile?
No idea, you'd have to check with them. Also keep in mind that the EntreQ stuff costs a lot.
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the big guys (Wireworld included IME) seem to have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
Just out of idle curiosity, what's your factual basis for that statement?
Using WW cables. The Platinum Starlight USB is $600, PPA's top cable costs half that and is much much better. Most of my other experiences with various WW stuff seems to suggest that they don't know what they are doing. None of the WW power cords I've used have ever sounded any better than the big pile of 14/3 computer cords I have laying around. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but at least in their "5" generation of power cords, the shield was connected at both ends which fails cable design 101. Otherwise for the prices they charge for interconnects and speaker cables, meh.
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the big guys (Wireworld included IME) seem to have absolutely no idea what they are doing.
Just out of idle curiosity, what's your factual basis for that statement?
None of the WW power cords I've used have ever sounded any better than the big pile of 14/3 computer cords I have laying around.
Power cords are the one thing that makes the least sense to me.
If there is any perceived difference, it has to work like Energy Drinks - correcting something that is wrong (lack of B vitamins in diet), rather than providing something better.
I say this because all you are doing is changing a tiny fraction of the power wire between your component and the local power station. If your house's original contractor did not use the same high-end molecularly-aligned wire as in your $700 power cable, then just changing 18 inches of the hundreds or thousands of feet logically cannot do anything.
It is the equivalent of using a PPA USB cable connected in series with five USB printer cables throw into the box of $20 printers.
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Oh don't be silly. Everybody and their grandmas know that connecting usb cables in parallel is the best way to reduce phase and jitter related macguffins.
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Well if your power cord is a smaller gauge than the wire in your house, you certainly aren't helping anything. I can tell you that the PS in my PC uses a thicker gauge power cord than a standard off the shelf PC.
"CAUTION:
The appropriate power supply cord should be selected and connected during installation."
http://www.seasonicusa.com/Platinum_Series.htm
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Well if your power cord is a smaller gauge than the wire in your house, you certainly aren't helping anything. I can tell you that the PS in my PC uses a thicker gauge power cord than a standard off the shelf PC.
"CAUTION:
The appropriate power supply cord should be selected and connected during installation."
http://www.seasonicusa.com/Platinum_Series.htm
There is no question that - these days - due to cost cutting and price cutting - the cheapest generic part often does not meet the basic specs.
That's why I will use a Belkin cable or professional audio cable instead of the cheapest possible cable, and sometimes I will use the "affordable" audiophile cables of a reliable company like Straight Wire - particularly for interconnects.
But the power cable for a DAC should not matter unless it is defective (for reasons mentioned in my previous post).
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Power cords are the one thing that makes the least sense to me.
If there is any perceived difference, it has to work like Energy Drinks - correcting something that is wrong (lack of B vitamins in diet), rather than providing something better.
I say this because all you are doing is changing a tiny fraction of the power wire between your component and the local power station. If your house's original contractor did not use the same high-end molecularly-aligned wire as in your $700 power cable, then just changing 18 inches of the hundreds or thousands of feet logically cannot do anything.
The difference that a properly shielded power cord can make vs. an unshielded one is clear as day. Beyond that, I don't think I can really explain exactly why power cords do what they do, it's just one of those things that you have to try for yourself. That said *many* of them will make absolutely no difference vs. some $10 14/3 cord from the hardware store. Some of them will change the sound, not necessarily for the better or worse, while others will actively make things worse. The old PS Audio xStream cords from several years ago were in that latter category, just terrible.
I have had good luck with Stealth, Purist, and Shunyata though, particularly when combined with a Running Springs, Audience Aura-Teflon, or B-P-T conditioner. Shunyata's conditioners are NOT good, but they do know how to make power cords.
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Anyone have any experience or opinions regarding SATA cables? (paging Dave?)
Also, if so, is there a way I could reasonably test this on 2 SSD's (one's OS and the other has all my music) without spending a fuck ton? I noticed PPA Studio has some short ones for $99 a piece that I'm tempted by, but I'd love to actually hear from someone here first.
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Anyone have any experience or opinions regarding SATA cables? (paging Dave?)
Also, if so, is there a way I could reasonably test this on 2 SSD's (one's OS and the other has all my music) without spending a fuck ton? I noticed PPA Studio has some short ones for $99 a piece that I'm tempted by, but I'd love to actually hear from someone here first.
The usefulness of SATA cable upgrades I think will depend on how much you've already done with the rest of your computer. If you're using something like an off the shelf ATX power supply, you should change that to a LPS or battery before worrying about SATA cables. You should also be using something like the PPA USB card, which should either be fed by the main power supply if it has a separate 5V output, or its own supply. If you're using the PPA Pico, you can use that to feed the USB card internally.
Another option if you have a very high powered system that needs an ATX switching supply is Core Audio's DC filtered ATX cables, which they promise are comparable to their standard LPS. I don't have any experience with them, but the cost for the 24-pin ATX, 4/8-pin CPU, and a SATA cable would be around $950.
Assuming the board and USB power supplies are already done and you're looking for something else to upgrade, the PPA "Red Slim" SATA cable is going to be tough to beat at $99, and is definitely worth a shot. Paul also has his older gen SATA cable available in very short lengths for as little as $50.
Edit: it looks as if Paul may be cooking up his own power supply as well.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Jd0AKCviAww/UsbNRoVwYhI/AAAAAAAABJ0/wR8PXwIiGg8/s1600/PICT8088.JPG)
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I've been very reluctant to change much about my PC and have pretty much refused to undermine its gaming or video editing capabilities. Currently it's got:
An Adnaco USB 3.0 card whose USB hub end is powered off an ifi iUSB plugged into the BPT you sold me (I always forget the exact model)
a SOtM SATA noise filter on the drive with my music
I have a PPA Red USB cable coming in the mail
and... that's it, actually!
I bookmarked Core Audio's site since those filtered extention cables look more reasonable to me than other stuff I've seen. Their linear power supply seems highly capable as well, but idk if I want to spend $3k on one right now >_> . Likewise the aforementioned cables seem a bit steep :/ . Idk, maybe if I sell more crap I don't use.
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Anyone have any experience or opinions regarding SATA cables? (paging Dave?)
If you get Jriver MediaCenter19 to play your music, and turn on "memory playback", then it converts your FLAC, etc. to WAVE files and puts them in RAM memory. At that point, it is impossible for SATA cables to be involved (only RAM, CPU, USB and busses will be involved).
Power supply is involved with everything electrical, of course.
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Think 19 is worth the upgrade cost if I already have 18?
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Ah. Yeah the Adnaco is good stuff. FWIW, Paul recommends not using the SoTM SATA filter with SSDs - he thinks you get better performance with his SATA cables and power leads without it.
The price of Core's linear ATX supply is pretty insane IMO. If you're going to spend that sort of cash, you're better off building a separate dedicated music server. Their filtered cables are a little more reasonable, and you could add them in stages to see what kind of benefit you get. Also for $3,000+, I would probably go with a Hynes supply anyway. He can do 12/5/3.3 mutli-rail linear supplies that can power complete machines, and his stuff is the best.
What I sold you was my old B-P-T BP-1 Signature, which was the half pint version of their TOTL BP-3.5 Signature. They've since discontinued the specialized versions, there's now just a base model of each and then you can roll in whatever upgrades you want a la carte. Yours has FIM outlets and Audience Aura-caps on the filter network, the current top spec is Oyaide or Furutech outlets and Teflon V-caps. I don't think I would bother changing the outlets, the FIMs aren't too shabby. The V-caps though might be worth while. The difference between Audience's own Adept Response conditioners with their standard Aura-caps vs. the top level Aura-Teflon versions is pretty significant.
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Think 19 is worth the upgrade cost if I already have 18?
JRMC 18 has memory playback mode. They've had that for a long time.
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I know, and I have it enabled. Was just wondering if 19's sounds better for whatever reason. I can hear differences between JPlay and MC18 so I know they aren't all the same, is all.
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Think 19 is worth the upgrade cost if I already have 18?
JRMC 18 has memory playback mode. They've had that for a long time.
Yes, that's true, so in fact, if you use the memory playback in 18, you would not need any special SATA cable for audio. I was assuming that ader did not have Jriver, since he was inquiring about that.
However, in 19, they changed the memory playback to storing the uncompressed data instead of the compressed data. So, the PC is not uncompressing during playback. A DAC manufacturer did blind tests of audio convention attendees, where they were able to detect a difference between compressed or uncompressed. The difference was less for more powerful PCs, indicating that it was due to use of the PC during playback.
I hear a difference between 18 and 19, but I'm only one anecdotal data point. Jriver formally claims that there is no difference, ironically. I suspect that there are differences of opinion on their staff, and the owner is probably the most Objectivist of them.
I also use MC19 for video, and there has been significant improvements in that. In fact, the developer of LAV filters started work at Jriver this week.
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So 19 has less CPU overhead? That might actually reduce timing issues with my Vega in Exact mode; maybe I'll check it out.
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So 19 has less CPU overhead? That might actually reduce timing issues with my Vega in Exact mode; maybe I'll check it out.
Only during the actual playback of the audio. Instead of uncompressing constantly during playback, instead it uncompresses the whole file at once and then loads it into memory.
The total CPU use is the same, and the peak CPU use is possibly more...
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So Before the DAC V, looks like you have the DAC IV select:
http://msbtech.com/products/dac4select.php?Page=../index
60K. And yes, the looks have changed (slightly.)
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So my buddy is putting together a new speaker rig and is incorporating an active crossover. From what I understand, these active crossovers do A/D, do their fiddly thing in the digital realm, then pump it back out D/A before feeding into two or three amps.
So... doesn't this basically undo the point of having a fancy dac in the first place? Related to that, are there any dacs with active crossover functionality built in?
I know I've read somewhere (probably at amb's forum) about someone hacking a Behringer DCX2496 to grab the post-crossover i2s streams to feed into better dacs.
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I hear a difference between 18 and 19, but I'm only one anecdotal data point. Jriver formally claims that there is no difference, ironically. I suspect that there are differences of opinion on their staff, and the owner is probably the most Objectivist of them.
JRiver also claims that JPlay is basically fraud, and that all bit-perfect players sound the same. The Foobar devs feel the same way.
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So my buddy is putting together a new speaker rig and is incorporating an active crossover. From what I understand, these active crossovers do A/D, do their fiddly thing in the digital realm, then pump it back out D/A before feeding into two or three amps.
So... doesn't this basically undo the point of having a fancy dac in the first place? Related to that, are there any dacs with active crossover functionality built in?
I know I've read somewhere (probably at amb's forum) about someone hacking a Behringer DCX2496 to grab the post-crossover i2s streams to feed into better dacs.
DEQX, DSPeaker; TotalDac or MSB will also make you one in exchange for a kidney. There are probably a few pro audio units with solutions like Behringer's.
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Wow! That's a serious price of admission.
I still think the Analog is their best looking product.
So Before the DAC V, looks like you have the DAC IV select:
http://msbtech.com/products/dac4select.php?Page=../index
60K. And yes, the looks have changed (slightly.)
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So Before the DAC V, looks like you have the DAC IV select:
60K. And yes, the looks have changed (slightly.)
I would hope the select power base is better than the one JA tested for that kind of scratch.
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Looks like LH's new DAC will be twice as good as the MSB at 120K: http://www.stereophile.com/content/light-harmonic-sire-dac (http://www.stereophile.com/content/light-harmonic-sire-dac)
And... what do you know, its vaporware.
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Should we expect a dCS announcement? They need to step it up if they want to keep up.
Then again, they can't even seem to keep their web site up! :)p13
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DEQX is a good option that's not terribly expensive. I thought their units were very capable sounding.
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I hear a difference between 18 and 19, but I'm only one anecdotal data point. Jriver formally claims that there is no difference, ironically. I suspect that there are differences of opinion on their staff, and the owner is probably the most Objectivist of them.
JRiver also claims that JPlay is basically fraud, and that all bit-perfect players sound the same. The Foobar devs feel the same way.
From what I could see on the outside looking in, apparently Jplay went about this in a foolish and insensitive manner. Essentially they "dissed" Jriver by saying "Use Jriver for the library, and then use Jplay so that it sounds good". Of course, this made Jriver's tail go up, with the obvious reply "our player sounds as good as any other". The fact that both software packages are commercial products made it unlikely for any other result to happen.
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Looks like LH's new DAC will be twice as good as the MSB at 120K: http://www.stereophile.com/content/light-harmonic-sire-dac (http://www.stereophile.com/content/light-harmonic-sire-dac)
And... what do you know, its vaporware.
But it comes with a FREE USB CABLE!!! I'm very curious how these "upgrade programs" will go. I remember back in the '90s home theater heyday, the big thing for TOTL A/V receivers and SSPs was similar "future proof" upgrade programs. Some of them even had card slots ala Theta that were supposed to allow for hardware upgrades. Unfortunately for the people that plonked down $5K for them (admittedly chump change compared to this thing) no upgrades ever came. Their DSPs couldn't handle new surround modes, and of course they never got things like FireWire or HDMI ports.
I see a new race to have the world's most expensive DAC, and it's kind of pathetic. Ultra high-end turntable prices are similarly ridiculous, but at least there you can make some excuses for the sheer level of mechanical engineering and complexity that goes into a table like the TechDAS Air Force One. Where's all the money going in this LH monster? Does it cost that much because it's invisible?
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Did someone say Air Force One?
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Speaking of TechDas, has anyone here tried their D7i DAC?
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Did someone say Air Force One?
Not quite. This one is a little smaller. Still manages to pack nearly 100lbs of duralumin in the chassis alone though.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-maqAj5Jf6aY/UPd_xo8cj1I/AAAAAAAANDU/GXBojG8MU_A/s1600/techdas.jpg)
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Matrix sent me a pair of Mini-Is, one the regular AD1955, one the 'Pro' ESS9016. Both use the same amp sections and are otherwise identical save some support circuitry. The difference between these chips (and implementation/drivers) is not subtle at all. I'll be reviewing these in detail soon, but a few early impressions using level matched output (XMOS USB input):
AD1955: Technically cleaner, clearer, but much less dynamic. Polite. Soundstage is smaller, more intimate even when you don't want it to be. Depth and layering suffers. I really like the sound of this unit overall, but the lack of dynamic contrast hurts it.
ESS9016: Technically less clear, but much more open. There is some slight rounding in the treble (perhaps the Sabre edge?), but it is pleasurable. With the more open sound I actually prefer this presentation of the treble more than the more correct AD1955. This one is far more dynamic too. Bass hits with authority instead of like a wet noodle, treble is shocking on cymbal crashes as it should be.
Next step is to use both of these with other amps to bypass the onboard amp, which seems limiting with the HD800. Listening to the Violectric V800/V200 combo is crisper in dynamic contrast, but detail is not very good. I suspect it's dated USB is to blame. I need to get my CD player in here to test coaxial on these.
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Matrix sent me a pair of Mini-Is, one the regular AD1955, one the 'Pro' ESS9016. Both use the same amp sections and are otherwise identical save some support circuitry. The difference between these chips (and implementation/drivers) is not subtle at all. I'll be reviewing these in detail soon, but a few early impressions using level matched output (XMOS USB input):
AD1955: Technically cleaner, clearer, but much less dynamic. Polite. Soundstage is smaller, more intimate even when you don't want it to be. Depth and layering suffers. I really like the sound of this unit overall, but the lack of dynamic contrast hurts it.
ESS9016: Technically less clear, but much more open. There is some slight rounding in the treble (perhaps the Sabre edge?), but it is pleasurable. With the more open sound I actually prefer this presentation of the treble more than the more correct AD1955. This one is far more dynamic too. Bass hits with authority instead of like a wet noodle, treble is shocking on cymbal crashes as it should be.
Next step is to use both of these with other amps to bypass the onboard amp, which seems limiting with the HD800. Listening to the Violectric V800/V200 combo is crisper in dynamic contrast, but detail is not very good. I suspect it's dated USB is to blame. I need to get my CD player in here to test coaxial on these.
Nice impressions! I don't believe USB is much of the problem, Violectric is just not that resolving IME.
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The differences you describe line up with a comparison I conducted two years ago. It wasn't DACs but computer audio players - iTunes and WMP playing MP3 files. I thought the differences were in fact subtle but iTunes was less spacious while fealing cleaner and more detailed. I eventually concluded that the greater width/separation that WMP gave me was the way to go because I determined it wasn't lacking in detail but it was just a psychoacoustic experience. I prefer a wider channel separation for MP3's.
So I wonder if some of the audible difference is nothing more than channel separation and its symptoms.
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Matrix sent me a pair of Mini-Is, one the regular AD1955, one the 'Pro' ESS9016. Both use the same amp sections and are otherwise identical save some support circuitry. The difference between these chips (and implementation/drivers) is not subtle at all. I'll be reviewing these in detail soon, but a few early impressions using level matched output (XMOS USB input):
AD1955: Technically cleaner, clearer, but much less dynamic. Polite. Soundstage is smaller, more intimate even when you don't want it to be. Depth and layering suffers. I really like the sound of this unit overall, but the lack of dynamic contrast hurts it.
Very interesting, though I wonder how well the AD1955 is being put to use in this case. It's a VERY capable DAC, but it's been in DACs that are mediocre (Emotiva) and absolutely breath taking (Accuphase DC-801). Both Berkeley and Bricasti use the AD1955, with very good results. I'm not sure what's in the new Alpha Reference though. The Accuphase DC-901 went from 16 stacked 1955s to two 9018 Sabres. Not an upgrade.
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Matrix sent me a pair of Mini-Is, one the regular AD1955, one the 'Pro' ESS9016. Both use the same amp sections and are otherwise identical save some support circuitry. The difference between these chips (and implementation/drivers) is not subtle at all. I'll be reviewing these in detail soon, but a few early impressions using level matched output (XMOS USB input):
AD1955: Technically cleaner, clearer, but much less dynamic. Polite. Soundstage is smaller, more intimate even when you don't want it to be. Depth and layering suffers. I really like the sound of this unit overall, but the lack of dynamic contrast hurts it.
ESS9016: Technically less clear, but much more open. There is some slight rounding in the treble (perhaps the Sabre edge?), but it is pleasurable. With the more open sound I actually prefer this presentation of the treble more than the more correct AD1955. This one is far more dynamic too. Bass hits with authority instead of like a wet noodle, treble is shocking on cymbal crashes as it should be.
Next step is to use both of these with other amps to bypass the onboard amp, which seems limiting with the HD800. Listening to the Violectric V800/V200 combo is crisper in dynamic contrast, but detail is not very good. I suspect it's dated USB is to blame. I need to get my CD player in here to test coaxial on these.
Nice impressions! I don't believe USB is much of the problem, Violectric is just not that resolving IME.
I brought my CD player in so I could have a reliable coaxial source and the V800 came to life. Sounded completely different. I've been cycling the 3 DACs through the V181 and it's a tough call for my personal preference between the V800 (PCM1793) and the Mini-I Pro (ESS9016). The Mini-I Pro has more energy to it and slightly more separation, but the V800 sounds more resolving, more real in the whole picture. I prefer vocals on the Mini-I Pro, though. It conveys emotion in a special way.
@ Dave
The Mini-I regular uses 2 AD1955, the Pro is a single ESS9016. The Pro is $520, the regular, $380.
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One other thing is that I haven't gotten into the Pro's filter settings. It's sort of convoluted having to sort of 'reboot' the machine to get into the settings instead of there just being a button to access it without power cycling.
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Question for the DAC guys. What do you know about the CS4328 chip? Looks like an old school sigma delta chip. A friend of mine borrowed my Anedio D2 and said he thought his CS4328 based DAC had better dynamics. I am going to test it out next week but I am too curious to wait to find out more.
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Question for the DAC guys. What do you know about the CS4328 chip? Looks like an old school sigma delta chip. A friend of mine borrowed my Anedio D2 and said he thought his CS4328 based DAC had better dynamics. I am going to test it out next week but I am too curious to wait to find out more.
According to the specs its an 18-bit DAC, so definitely pretty old, likely early '90s.
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Speaking of old DACs, this is kind of cool: http://www.aquahifi.com/la_voce.html (http://www.aquahifi.com/la_voce.html)
Your choice of PCM1704, AD1865, or the uber rare Philips TDA1541A. No 1543 bullshit.
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Had a little micro meet up with my friend tonight and got a chance to hear his CS4328 DAC. It was with the 009 and the Stax amp that the KGSS is based on. I was actually very impressed with the dynamics. Not sure how it related to the rest of the system but I have a feeling the DAC was a large part of it. Using Purrin's terminology I think it was macrodynamics. The overall highs and lows were very good but almost no microdynamics. It has a very one note sound to each note. No quick changes in dynamics on attack or decay. It gave it a very smooth but kind of boring sound. Detail and plankton definitely not strong either. An interesting listen for sure. Based on my experience with the CS4328 and Sabre chip it is interesting how DAC technology changed. I am hopeful that an R2R would bridge that gap between an analog and the modern super detailed sound but a little compressed in the macrodynamics department.
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Had a little micro meet up with my friend tonight and got a chance to hear his CS4328 DAC. It was with the 009 and the Stax amp that the KGSS is based on. I was actually very impressed with the dynamics. Not sure how it related to the rest of the system but I have a feeling the DAC was a large part of it. Using Purrin's terminology I think it was macrodynamics. The overall highs and lows were very good but almost no microdynamics. It has a very one note sound to each note. No quick changes in dynamics on attack or decay. It gave it a very smooth but kind of boring sound. Detail and plankton definitely not strong either. An interesting listen for sure. Based on my experience with the CS4328 and Sabre chip it is interesting how DAC technology changed. I am hopeful that an R2R would bridge that gap between an analog and the modern super detailed sound but a little compressed in the macrodynamics department.
A lot of your complaints equal my own on similar rigs, however in my experience it's more often the amp. 323, 727, KGSS, KGSSHV are very reminiscent of your impressions. Not that the DAC may or may not have contributed its fair share.
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Cool thanks for the feedback. I never noticed it before so I thought it was the DAC, but I am also now comparing to the 2A3x4 which is pretty remarkable in that aspect. We were a bit pressed for time or I would have thrown the DAC into my system. He also picked up that cheap OR5 off HF from a while back so I will get chance to hear that as well.
For what it is worth he is ditching the stats rig and going to a HD800/EC rig like mine (probably BA) lol
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HD800 claims another from the grasp of stats headbang
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I've had the opportunity to listen to several high-end DACs over the last few months thanks to friends and dealers.
The EMM Labs DAC2X was much more impressive dialed into the right system, second only to the LH DaVinci in naturalness and effortlessness to my ears. Personally, I find it a bit difficult to compare DACs on the fly, especially at this level where the differences are often very subtle to me, but I've noticed the better DACs---well, better to me---are those that just present music with a sense of ease, somewhat laid back but never lethargic, more relaxed and adept. Like it's no sweat to render a complex set of arrangements. In comparison, lesser DACs often sound like they've got their digital assholes clenched too tightly.
A new one for me was the Reimyo DAP-999 coupled with a USB converter since it doesn't have on-board USB implemented. This DAC sounded very beautiful for lack of a better descriptor. My thoughts kept drifting back to the Orpheus, as it seemed to present everything in a rosy, prettier-than-life sort of way without missing much of a beat. Still, I think I prefer the more honest sound of the EMM and the Overdrive SE, the latter of which ended up knocking my socks off as one of the top DACs I've heard under $8K.
I'm waiting for the Berkeley Alpha Reference to be released, mainly. I'd like to compare it to the above models along with the MSB Diamond Signature and Bricasti M1 perhaps.
Even then, I find myself wanting to explore a second DAC as a different "flavor" to go along with whatever ends up being my main reference in place of the Alpha 2. I'm mostly curious about NOS and tube stage DACs, something with more of a stereotypical "vintage analog sound."
Speaking of NOS, the Metrum Hex was actually quite competent when I tried it out a few weeks ago, and apart from the lush mids, I didn't find it to be all that seductively euphonic. The interesting thing about the Hex for me was how utterly non-plused it seemed. This wasn't just a matter of effortless or not, but rather it did absolutely nothing to try and wow the listener; in some ways it conveyed the sense of space in live recordings better than almost any other DAC I tried on hand, but it was entirely dependent on the recording, and most of the time it wasn't particular engaging to my ears. Still, I thought it was one of the better DACs on hand, and I preferred it to the Bel Canto 3, Auralic Vega, and maybe even the Weiss DAC202 which had a similarly laid back character. Also the FEMTO which was definitely more energetic, but somehow a bit un-engaging as well. Both the FEMTO and Vega had a good amount of detail retrieval on the other hand, and both seemed the most overtly analytical, though the Vega suffered more from digititis whereas the FEMTO was relatively free of this for me.
Some DACs I'm curious about to this effect:
-Lampizator Level 4 (http://www.lampizator.eu/NEWDAC/Lampizator/Lampizator_DAC.html) (not as a reference, but for a specific kind of sound)
-Ayon Stratos (http://www.ayonaudio.com/products/digital/dac/stratos.html)
-Abbingdon Music Research DP-777 (http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/html/dp777_individual.html) (which is getting hyped quite a bit on head-fi right now...).
-The TOTALDAC (http://www.totaldac.com/) (can be configured w/ a tube stage or even as a monoblock)
Also it's good timing on Dave's part, as I've been quite curious about the Philips TDA-151A chip lately. Here are some DACs I'm interested in that use it:
-Zanden Model 5000 Signature (http://www.zandenaudio.com/product/m5000.php) (an oldie, but generally quite highly regarded)
-Aqua Hi-Fi La Voce (http://www.aquahifi.com/la_voce.html) (Thanks to Dave for bringing this to my attention)
I suspect the Lampizators use the Philips as well, though it isn't disclosed openly anymore for some reason it seems ("to prevent pre-conceived notions about the DACs" or something).
Lastly, there's a new entry level (well, relatively speaking) DAC from Stahl Tek called the Ariaa: http://www.stahltek.com/ariaa.htm
I haven't heard their other DACs, but the Vekian DAC seems quite highly regarded, costing quite a pretty penny (or a metric f-ton of pretty pennies): http://www.stahltek.com/vekian_da.htm
Very interested in these.
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I've had the opportunity to listen to several high-end DACs over the last few months thanks to friends and dealers.
A new one for me was the Reimyo DAP-999 coupled with a USB converter since it doesn't have on-board USB implemented. This DAC sounded very beautiful for lack of a better descriptor. My thoughts kept drifting back to the Orpheus, as it seemed to present everything in a rosy, prettier-than-life sort of way without missing much of a beat. Still, I think I prefer the more honest sound of the EMM and the Overdrive SE, the latter of which ended up knocking my socks off as one of the top DACs I've heard under $8K.
Even then, I find myself wanting to explore a second DAC as a different "flavor" to go along with whatever ends up being my main reference in place of the Alpha 2. I'm mostly curious about NOS and tube stage DACs, something with more of a stereotypical "vintage analog sound."
Some DACs I'm curious about to this effect:
-Lampizator Level 4 (http://www.lampizator.eu/NEWDAC/Lampizator/Lampizator_DAC.html) (not as a reference, but for a specific kind of sound)
-Ayon Stratos (http://www.ayonaudio.com/products/digital/dac/stratos.html)
-Abbingdon Music Research DP-777 (http://www.amr-audio.co.uk/html/dp777_individual.html) (which is getting hyped quite a bit on head-fi right now...).
-The TOTALDAC (http://www.totaldac.com/) (can be configured w/ a tube stage or even as a monoblock)
Also it's good timing on Dave's part, as I've been quite curious about the Philips TDA-151A chip lately. Here are some DACs I'm interested in that use it:
-Zanden Model 5000 Signature (http://www.zandenaudio.com/product/m5000.php) (an oldie, but generally quite highly regarded)
-Aqua Hi-Fi La Voce (http://www.aquahifi.com/la_voce.html) (Thanks to Dave for bringing this to my attention)
Very interested in these.
The Reimyo is indeed a gorgeous sounding DAC. I think the Accuphase DC-801 captures some of that, but with less of a rose colored tint. But not the new DC-901 sadly. The Overdrive rocks, and now that it's $6750 fully loaded, I think it's practically untouchable at that price.
From what I recall, Tari has experience with the AMR and Aesthetix tube DACs and wasn't too impressed with them. The Ayon DACs I'm not very familiar with, but it's hard to argue with quad 1704s, and Ayon amps are some of the very best in the business, so on that front at least they do know what they are doing.
The TotalDAC is somewhat of an oddball design, though it's gotten high praise in the press, for whatever that's worth. Steve wasn't impressed with the resistors they chose to use in their design, or the power supply, again, for whatever that's worth.
Modwright is close to releasing their Elyse tube DAC, not sure of the price. I did talk to Dan a bit about why he went with the PCM1794A though.
Audio Aero used to make some very good tube DACs, but I think they went bust? At the very least their website is gone.
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I found a vendor not too far from me who has Ayon stuff; I'll ask if he's got their tube DACs. Also OT, but I'm curious to hear Ayon's monoblocks with the new KT150 tubes that look positively enormous.
Almost all of the Zanden Model 5000 Signature impressions I've read are with it mated to their gorgeous CD transport, with next-to-nothing about using it with a PC or MAC. I suppose the lack of USB is partially to blame, but then folks talk about the Reimyo DAC with both, so I'unno.
Everything about the TOTALDAC seems weird.
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The Accustic Arts DAC is also worth a listen if you haven't heard it. AA uses op-amps in their designs instead of discrete circuits, but they are good ones, usually OPA627s.
(http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/normal/accustic-arts-tube-dac-ii-439639.jpg)
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Audio Note dacs (and the Zanden) weren't my cup of tea but the 4.1x and the DAC 5 sig are still worth a listen if you haven't heard them before.
If you can get a DC801+DP800 for under 8.5k then snag it up. The DC801 on it's own isn't super amazing (for the price), even with a good converter like the OR5/Bada. However paired with the transport the sound produced is quite special.
Since you are a Sony fan MF, you might wanna play with the idea of getting a CDP-R10 + DAS-R10 set for fun. These were released as part of the "R10" series and besides looking gorgeous (the loading mechanism on the transport produces minor erections) the CDP-R10 is quite an amazing transport, even if the DAC is outdated. If you are ever in Boston there is a set here (along with the matching TA-ER1 preamp) that you can audition.
Since you are looking for naturalness and effortlessness, might want to look into the Wadia 7+9 set for a "reference" dac/system. The dac (9) can be gotten for quite cheap on AG (usually around 4k) and it still amazes me how good this thing sounds, even though it's so old. Slayed the DAC2x for me.
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To clarify on AMR/Aesthetix, I thought they were both pretty good but the Cantata I ended up with a year ago was in the same vein (warmer but not to excess) with better impact and detail, so I'm not sure I get the current hype, unless being 35-40 pounds equates to hype. Right now I'm blissing out to my Moth Tari DAC (no official name so I'm naming it after me) which I just loaded up with some NOS mullard GZ34's. I have a good source for metal plates but the price is bonkers so I'm holding off for now.
I have high hopes for the Mola Mola in the hyper detail/low noise floor category. Hopefully it won't cost too much.
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Oh yeah, the Mola Mola DAC. I only remember the name because those fish delight and disturb me. Should check to see how that thing is coming along, as it seems really promising.
I'm kinda getting really enthused about the Totaldac Dual DAC the more I read about it. The monoblock configuration using one per channel, both controlled by an external reclocker, is just insane.
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Another tube DAC, this time from VAC who makes pretty cool stuff:
http://www.vac-amps.com/productPages/phiAlpha.html
Not much info out there for this one unfortunately.
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PWD MKIII, aka the "Directstream DAC." Converting everything to DSD isn't a new concept, but the lack of one of the usual suspect sigma delta chips is interesting. Just don't pay $6K for one, there will be loads of them for half off on Audiogon as per usual with PS.
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/02/ps-audio-to-rescue-pcm-with-directstream-perfectwave-dac/
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Anyone have any experience with centrance 1 ohm mods? I'm somewhat considering getting it done to my dacport lx...
I'm sure I could dig it up... but its finals week where the professors will be doing this walk the plank2 to me.
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No experience, but it kind of depends on what headphones you are planning to pair with it... What's your flavor?
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If you're just using it as a lineout feeding an amp, changing the output impedance shouldn't do anything significant.
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A few very high-end DACs that interest me:
The Kalliope from Gryphon Audio:
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/products/da-converters/kalliope.aspx
I'm weary of Sabre DACs, and this thing has a lot of Sabre chips. However I'm also a firm believer in implementation being the main deciding factor. Given Gryphon's reputation, I'd expect good things from this. Though that's no guarantee they understand the digital domain that well.
The CH Precision C1 DAC and Pre-Amp:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/ch-precision-c1-dacpre
I've been hearing very good things about this, as in folks saying it's a good alternative to the much more expensive Trinity DAC which a good number of my craziest audiophile acquaintances have declared the best DAC they've ever heard. Yeah, the price is still sky-high, but you get both a world class DAC and pre-amp as well. Supposedly it sounds best when you use the pre-amp along with the DAC.
The DA1000 from TAD:
http://tad-labs.com/en/consumer/da1000/index.html
A friend of mine is getting this DAC. Had to do a bit of digging for more specific info:
-Similar master clock to the one used in their flagship disc player
-Dual Burr-Brown PCM1794A
-"Specially-developed asynchronous USB transmission engine"
-Toroidal power supply
-Line output volume function for direct connection to an external power amplifier
-Headphone amplifier w/ dedicated independent volume control
Like the build of it. Seems interesting.
Also once again I'll mention the Wadax Pre One MK2:
http://www.wadax.eu/?page_id=642
This one is still really interesting to me because it offers a very high quality phono stage and music streamer. Though obviously one wonders if a product designed to multitask to such a degree is going to do any one particular thing as well as the individual counterparts.
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I'd be wary of the Sabre, even in Gryphon's hands. I love the Accuphase sound, but NOT the Sabre based DC-901. The one DAC I'm really curious about is BAlabo's $37,500 BD-1, because I know almost nothing about it. BAlabo's amps for me are in the best of the best category along with Vitus and a select few others, regardless of price. If their DAC is anything like their amps....
(http://www.balabo.com/dac/images/DAC_front2.jpg)
(http://www.balabo.com/dac/images/DAC_rear.jpg)
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@MF: It looks like that Gryphon DAC just uses one chip per channel, but uses all 8 channels on each for redundancy or something. I've seen some other Saber DACs that do the same thing. Actually the only one I can think of off hand that I know doesn't use more than 2 channels on the chip is the Conductor because Burson doesn't believe in that or something. It's not a particularly great DAC though.
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Yeah, Sabre DACs piss me off. So many companies using them now, even the new flagship Lumin Network Player, the S1, which make me sad.
Oh... yeah! I heard a Lampizator finally. I have no idea which one it was, but it had tubes sticking out of the top and looked kinda DIY-ish. I actually really liked it lol.
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Interesting review by Darko of his "new best," the PCM1704 based Aqua La Scala. USB is XMOS based and seemed to be at least decent, but JD doesn't have an OR5 to compare.
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2014/03/aqua-hifi-la-scala-mkii-dac-review/
(http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/aqua_la_scala_MKII_8.jpg)
(http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/aqua_la_scala_MKII_1.jpg)
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MF, I think the one with tubes actually sticking out the top is the really high end one, level 6 or 7. Major money. One even uses 2A3's.
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(http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/aqua_la_scala_MKII_1.jpg)
Those LEDs are out of production and have been sold out for a while. There are probably better choices for use in biasing a circuit, but they are really nice for mounting in front panels. This DAC seems to be attempting to use up as much out of production stuff as possible.
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One even uses 2A3's.
Why would anyone use these in a dac?
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Speaking of R2R DACs I am curious about the UltraAnalog chip. I keep seeing these old Sonic Frontier's SFD DACs come up for sale. I wonder how they would compare to modern DACs. From what I can tell the UltraAnalog chip is some kind of modified hybrid chip.
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The UltraAnalog are repackaged PCM63s with other supporting chips thrown in. Some of the Sonic Frontiers DACs were really good, but before they were about to die, they made some stuff which wasn't that good.
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Speaking of R2R DACs I am curious about the UltraAnalog chip. I keep seeing these old Sonic Frontier's SFD DACs come up for sale. I wonder how they would compare to modern DACs. From what I can tell the UltraAnalog chip is some kind of modified hybrid chip.
The one you want to hear is the Spectral SDR-2000 Pro. Only the Levinson 30 series DACs and a few others from that period are in the same league. Their digital receivers and such can't really compete with what modern DACs can do, but with a very low jitter source, I think they can still hold up pretty well.
Of course if you want to hear great vintage R2R chips, there's no need to buy a 20 year old DAC to do it. You can find the superb AD1865 in a few DACs, and you can even get the Philips TDA1541A in the Aqua La Voce which is pretty amazing as that chip has achieved a kind of mythical unicorn status.
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I am kind of scared that the Aqua stuff won't be detailed enough with those old chips. The La Voce looks pretty cool and it is a somewhat reasonable price. I would have no idea which of the three DAC chips to pick.
Maybe I will save up some money and pray the Euro takes a dive. I am still hopeful the Yggy can be a solution, but I am a bit of a sucker for rare/weird stuff like the La Voce. I think $3k would be the top end I would consider for a DAC, and it would have to be VERY good.
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Maybe you can get a Lampi for cheap. Finally got to hear one at the recent OC meet.
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Care to elaborate on what you thought of that hodgepodge DAC?
Was it the level 4:
(http://craziestgadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/ghetto-limo-500x333.jpg)
or the level 5?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sy3UEYGx4HI/TAa3tr_-idI/AAAAAAAAAvc/ngWGoi7_mNA/s1600/howls.jpg)
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Which one is the Lampi with the two boxes? I didn't see any 2A3s exposed, etc., so I assumed it was the level 6 or "big six". Was fed into the Mjolnir. I used HE-500 jerg pads and Abyss.
I liked it quite a bit, but I wasn't super impressed. I understand why people love it. The DAC chip has a very obvious sigma-delta quality to it, but the sound had a little tube wetness. I thought Donald's Sonic Frontiers CD player was better. The Lampi sounds like an OK digital front-end / DAC chip mated to a decent tube output. You can tell. Still had a slightly hard time with the treble rendering. At least the tube implementation didn't try to hide it. The Lampi sounded more like a "trick", but nevertheless a very good and effective one. It's still a trick though. I'd say pass if you already have a WA5, 2A3mk4, Stratus, etc.
The bass did not sound gooey, but that is probably because this is higher level? I've heard reports of the Lampi being gooey, but no idea what level. Frankly all this level sh1t pisses my off. Makes sense to me because it makes it that much more difficult for people to compare notes on performance. I appreciate Mr. Lampi for coining the term "plankton", but 7.5 levels of DACs? Give me a fucking break.
I couldn't buy the Lampi. I'd rather wire up some sh1t from eBay, like a AKM kit, get misterrogers to help me on the USB, power supply, and pay Craig or Donald to design me an output section.
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I thought the Lampizator I heard sounded really good FWIW. It didn't have the resolution of something like the Vega, but to me it was much easier to listen to and had this unique character that was very compelling, reminding me a bit of the Audio Note gear I really liked. I'd say it was a bit rounded at either end, but it didn't sound syrupy or too thick. That being said it also didn't sound like any other DAC I've heard before. Most high end DACs sound more alike than not, and to me it often seems like their differences are exaggerated a bit in retrospect. Not so with the Lampizator. It was one of the few DACs that left a lasting impression, and I'm pretty sure I'd be able to pick it out from memory. I actually found myself missing it afterward. However I'm not so sure I'd want something that "exotic" so high up in my audio chain unless I had extra funds lying around and could invest in it as a second option for when the mood hits. Still, the sense of space and atmosphere it was able to convey was downright impressive to me.
Customer service seems pretty good from my limited experience dealing with them. Talking to the owner of the DAC, he had nothing but positive things to say in that regard. I like how the designer Lukasz Fikus is willing to accommodate special requests, and he seems to offer a lot of options for folks to explore.
As for the level system, it's somewhat confusing but not as bad as it seems initially. Level 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 are all the same basic DAC but with different quality parts and different options resulting in different price points. AFAIK the first two levels aren't even offered anymore due to lack of demand. Most folks seem to start with Level 4 which is sort of seen as the entry point by most folks. Level 5 in turn is a more upmarket version---more or less the culmination of their main DAC design---that has a separate power supply. So Level 4 is one box while Level 5 is two.
The way it was explained to me is that Level 6 and Level 7 are not better than the Level 5 DAC but rather different flavors. Or "side grades." Horizontal movement. Different DACs, basically. It's a bit confusing then for Lukasz to call these levels because that implies vertical movement and therefore improvement, though there is continued movement in the price that rises for each due to bigger chassis and longer lead times.
Personally I find Audio GD's system of classifying DACs more confusing and irritating.
A friend of mine has experience with another tube DAC, the Abbingdon Music Research DP-777. He says it sounds rather euphonic but slow.
I'm actually very tempted by the Aqua La Scala MKII on the other hand. Thinking about trying it on a whim.
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Add to the Lampi confusion that some of the models are now on their fifth generation. So you'll see Level 3 gen 4, level 4 gen 3, etc. And some of the changes from gen to gen were not small.
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I don't find AG-D's DAC naming scheme all that difficult because there's really only one to consider (at least in my mind): the M7 @ $2200 shipped to USA.
If the Lampi came with a USB interface comparable to the OR5 and really good digital section (resolving and smooth), I'd be more willing to pay the big bucks for it. But I know that I can get similar or probably better performance by adding a DIY tube output to my hacked up DCX2496 + better PS + better clocks + maybe an extra OR5.
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I'm actually very tempted by the Aqua La Scala MKII on the other hand. Thinking about trying it on a whim.
It is tempting although the previous comment on it using as many discontinued components as possible got me slightly concerned (even though it's not like DAC ever fail, even after 10 years).
I am quite curious about the PS Audio DirectStream though, mainly because the designer behind seems so nuts and candidly enthusiastic in the various videos released so far ;).
Anyone got a chance to hear the totalDAC? I spent just little time with it but was very impressed. Not enough to spend the >1MJPY required to get it (the yen has become monkey money against the euro) , mainly because I lack referential on the SQ/price of dacs out there.
I use a Yamamoto-dac which was probably outdated from the day it was released so, anything sounds probably more resolving in comparison. But from the few DACs I have sampled over the last 2-3 years, the Totaldac D-1 is the one I most vividly remember the jump in SQ, in particular the soundstaging depth / instrument layer and overall super rich / realistic rendering of room cues and other transient subtleties that distinguish the good from the excellent I guess.
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I'm actually very tempted by the Aqua La Scala MKII on the other hand. Thinking about trying it on a whim.
Do it...
I am intrigued by what I am seeing with the Aqua products. Tube output stages in a DAC though are a bit meh. Not sure if there is any reason it isn't really done. Maybe Jason can grace me with some of his DAC design knowledge.
It could be interesting if you wanted to use solid state with orthos though. Maybe adding a little bit of tube in the output stage of your DAC will allow you to use a solid state amp like the LAu to get the best of both worlds? From what Marv was saying about the Lampizator it seems like you would be better off with a tube amp unless there is a specific reason you want to use a solid state amp.
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Does anyone have any insights regarding the Arda AT1401? http://www.ardatech.com/1401.shtml
It's been in "soon to be released" mode forever...
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IIRC the company behind the project got acquired or something.
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For the past week I have been trying out the Antelope Zodiac. Although I don't think I would recommend the current Zodiac for these days, back then it would have been great for the price and would be an absolute beast with the PSU imo. USB implementation at that time though supposedly isochronous, measures as well as an async implementation. Really wonder how their newer products would sound.
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Bottlehead is thinking of kickstarting their dac...
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,6257.0.html
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Bottlehead is thinking of kickstarting their dac...
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,6257.0.html
I'm interested to learn more about this. I read a snippet on some forum, and it seems the designer is very concerned about digital filters. I am beginning to find that, for me, the types of filters used in DACs is probably the most important thing I currently look for (assuming, of course, all of the other most basic characteristics are good).
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I heard whispers about it being R2R...are there any specs available?
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I really hope its not a tube dac though(discrete SS please). A kit would be very nice, along with the gamma 3.
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I believe I read it will be tube-based...very well could be wrong.
Edit: From Oct 2012, so take this as you will...
http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3317.msg29933.html#msg29933 (http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3317.msg29933.html#msg29933)
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Wouldn't a SS DAC be kind of out of character for them? Do they make anything that's not tube driven?
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If it's just another Sigma-Delta with a tube output stage, I'll be markedly less interested. The price point tells me it won't be though.
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I have to say it's nice to see all the options for DACs proliferating, choice is always good. On the other hand, the number of designers on my list that really know what they are doing with true bit-perfect digital audio is getting increasingly small. While it's not hard to make a DAC that produces an acceptable musical output for most, once you begin to hear how various parts of the digital chain sound when implemented poorly, it becomes an annoyance. I hope people spend the time to get everything right rather than just settling on just playback.
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I've been thinking about the DirectStream Dac lately and primarily the idea of it doesn't jive with me simply because I'm usually a non-oversampling guy. When I read the marketing talk for the Dac all I am reading is that it will upsample everything to DSD - or another way upsampling to the extreme!
They would have you believe that competing DACs are losing out of information present in the recording like you are only getting 95% of the information that is there so once you upsample to DSD you're now getting 100%. That logic just doesn't seem right to me. I see it more like trying to play a old SNES on a flat screen TV... all that old information is still there on your fancy new screen with great colour/contrast/blacks etc. but the game still looks just as shitty as ever because the pixels are just getting blown up on your 80 inch set. Then when you run it natively at 480i or whatever it looks much better but the old high end CRT set probably did just as good of a job but being shown on the entire viewing area rather than 480 of the pixels..
I know it's still a new DAC but trying to get through the hype(rbole) is a little rough when not too many people I trust have put the DAC on their bench yet. I see some good and bad impressions out there.
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I've been thinking about the DirectStream Dac lately and primarily the idea of it doesn't jive with me simply because I'm usually a non-oversampling guy. When I read the marketing talk for the Dac all I am reading is that it will upsample everything to DSD - or another way upsampling to the extreme!
They would have you believe that competing DACs are losing out of information present in the recording like you are only getting 95% of the information that is there so once you upsample to DSD you're now getting 100%. That logic just doesn't seem right to me. I see it more like trying to play a old SNES on a flat screen TV... all that old information is still there on your fancy new screen with great colour/contrast/blacks etc. but the game still looks just as shitty as ever because the pixels are just getting blown up on your 80 inch set. Then when you run it natively at 480i or whatever it looks much better but the old high end CRT set probably did just as good of a job but being shown on the entire viewing area rather than 480 of the pixels..
I know it's still a new DAC but trying to get through the hype(rbole) is a little rough when not too many people I trust have put the DAC on their bench yet. I see some good and bad impressions out there.
PS Audio is a lot better at marketing their products than actually building them. MHz range upsampling is nothing new, Accustic Arts has been doing it for quite awhile in their DACs, as has Esoteric. The Vega also does 1.5MHz upsampling. It's all fine, but not what I'd call absolutely necessary, unless you're talking about the kinds of cheap DACs that use basic ASRC chips to deal with otherwise poorly implemented/jittery receivers and crappy filters. Plus you can always just upsample in software anyway.
If it's going to be used via USB, it's far more important to get that interface right than worry about how far you can upsample, and PS hasn't proven they know how to do USB properly yet. The input on the new DSD version of Ayre's DAC on the other hand is supposedly so good that it's essentially immune to differing sources, at least from what I've read in various reports. It's certainly a bold claim.
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I really want to hear the new Ayre QB-9. I'm curious how the sabre chip sounds with their custom filter. That, and I've just heard it sounds really good.
I know Mr. Sneis has heard this from me, but I was not crazy about the PS Audio PWD MK1. Don't get me wrong, it did sound pretty darn good and excelled in some areas (though USB was meh), but I got the sense the company was better at putting together a pretty looking product and cool marketing than really putting together a great DAC. Digging more into my personal tastes, I thought the digital filters were all too homogeneous, in that I believe they were all at a standard-to-high level of oversampling (8x, I think, but at least 4x) and had quite a bit of post-ringing and pre-ringing, depending on the filter used. Based on my measurements, it appears the manual mislabels the filters, at least in 16/44.1 or 48 mode (with or without upsampling). I was disappointed PS Audio did not better utilize the variety of filters available to the Wolfson chip, as I think that's one of its best features. Perhaps instead of going the DSD route, they could have dug more into what you can get from the Wolfson chips...?
I'd still like to hear the MK2 someday, just to cover my bases. Maybe it would change my mind. Yet, when a company seems unsure why different firmware sounds different or why upgrading to the MK2 from MK1 vs buying a factory MK2 sounds different, and I'm not thrilled about the sound (like I said, quite good, but not for me), I can't say I really want to get involved with them. But, had the sound been what I wanted, that would be pretty easy to overlook, I think, so it's definitely still a really good product for many people. I'd like to hear the DS as well, but, no, I won't pay to listen to one after my MK1 experience. I do think their retail prices are generally just too much.
I do have to say, I like the Audio-GD NFB-3.2 I picked up for cheap. So many filter choices! I got it for about $150 locally and am very satisfied with what it offers at that price. I've found that I prefer minimum-phase over linear-phase and that I prefer it to be a mild filter with low ringing at 2x or 4x (Ayre does 16x, so I'm curious to try that). The Gamma2 was a more technically proficient DAC than the NFB-3.2, which happened to make filter differences more apparent. So, I definitely want to try the Gamma3, but it's not the only DAC on the horizon that interests me...
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Regarding the DirectStream, ALRainbow is liking it more without the OR which is promising. FWIW his initial impressions I believe are DS>M7>MKII. We'll see
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Alrainbow seems to like his a fair bit. Paul posted about those who are not so convinced on the ds dac that they adjust their setup to better fit the strengths of the dac (ie buy more stuff), seems kind of a cop out response IMO. About the filters that was always one complaint myself and some others had about the pwd, I just want a consistently good sound and not have to mutz around with a filter or understand what the filter was doing anytime I wanted a listen so I just left it at auto or arbitrarily chose one when I couldn't tell a difference.
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I will chime in here and say that the first impression I got from the Direct Stream DAC was incredibly impressive. Granted it was with a Vorzuge Pure II running single ended into my JH-13 FPs, I would very much like to hear it for a longer period of time in house.
Also consider that I was going in very skeptical of the DAC from a technological standpoint, thinking it was maybe trying to hard...
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I really want to hear the new Ayre QB-9. I'm curious how the sabre chip sounds with their custom filter. That, and I've just heard it sounds really good.
I'd still like to hear the MK2 someday, just to cover my bases. Maybe it would change my mind. Yet, when a company seems unsure why different firmware sounds different or why upgrading to the MK2 from MK1 vs buying a factory MK2 sounds different, and I'm not thrilled about the sound (like I said, quite good, but not for me), I can't say I really want to get involved with them. But, had the sound been what I wanted, that would be pretty easy to overlook, I think, so it's definitely still a really good product for many people. I'd like to hear the DS as well, but, no, I won't pay to listen to one after my MK1 experience. I do think their retail prices are generally just too much.
I'm mostly interested in how good the USB input really is, since with the QB-9, that's you're only choice, you can't use a converter. Otherwise I would expected it to come in somewhere around the Auralic in performance. It's supposed to be much better than the original QB-9, but that's not exactly a high bar.
I also was unmoved by the PWD MK1, and the box of chocolates firmware and mediocre NuWave products, plus what seems to be at least some unit to unit variation in the NuWave phono (and who knows where else, how many have actually tested two identical PS products together?) has kept me from going back to anything PS, though I do admit that the still dropping prices of MK2s are starting to make it a more compelling choice.
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I will chime in here and say that the first impression I got from the Direct Stream DAC was incredibly impressive. Granted it was with a Vorzuge Pure II running single ended into my JH-13 FPs, I would very much like to hear it for a longer period of time in house.
Also consider that I was going in very skeptical of the DAC from a technological standpoint, thinking it was maybe trying to hard...
Seems you liked it more than the MSB Analog DAC.
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On first impression in japan I would say that is an accurate statement. I wouldn't want to say anything concrete without a longer period of time to actually compare the two in house though. The Direct Stream DAC was incredibly memorably, now whether that was a short lived wow type effect or something that is truly special would take longer to determine than the time i had on hand
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Would u say the impression is similar to hearing freakphase the first time relative to other items?
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That's actually a pretty good analogy. Maybe not quite to that scale, but yes, it was a bit like that. It really did make listening to the Analog DAC kind of a let down which I would imagine is saying something. I will make every attempt to get one in house to compare to the master 7
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That's actually a pretty good analogy. Maybe not quite to that scale, but yes, it was a bit like that. It really did make listening to the Analog DAC kind of a let down which I would imagine is saying something. I will make every attempt to get one in house to compare to the master 7
Thanks for the feedback. In that case it sounds like it could be what I'd call the 'turbo clock' effect. Hyper clean. Whether it sounds better or just different is the question to answer.
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The Xonar STU is a great budget dac. I've had a long affair with pcm1792 implementations behind the backs of more expensive dacs.
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wtf, when did Mytek decide to make a $5k consumer DAC?
http://mytekdigital.com/storeus/index.php/manhattan.html
Also, the unit is ugly. I hate it when consumer companies tout working with world class industrial design firms and their devices look like crap. PROTIP: Don't make something internet nerds think is beautiful, make something EVERYONE thinks is beautiful. The Sprout, although not the prettiest thing ever, is still leagues ahead of this thing in terms of aesthetics.
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wtf, when did Mytek decide to make a $5k consumer DAC?
http://mytekdigital.com/storeus/index.php/manhattan.html
Also, the unit is ugly. I hate it when consumer companies tout working with world class industrial design firms and their devices look like crap. PROTIP: Don't make something internet nerds think is beautiful, make something EVERYONE thinks is beautiful. The Sprout, although not the prettiest thing ever, is still leagues ahead of this thing in terms of aesthetics.
Oh gawd! It looks like Resolution Cantanta gave birth to something with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.
It's not even original and a horribly done cheap looking copy.
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Looks like my shower curtain.
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wtf, when did Mytek decide to make a $5k consumer DAC?
http://mytekdigital.com/storeus/index.php/manhattan.html
I've seen a few web ads for that, but I didn't realize it looked like that. Blech.
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I just bought Greed's Geek Out 450 DAC.
It's pretty great sounding as far as I can tell so far.
I was also considering picking up a Schiit Bifrost Uber USB2, but has anyone compared the Bifrost to a Geek Out? (I've never had a chance to listen to the Bifrost)
I am just not sure I will be able to hear any difference and if it's worth spending the extra money on a Bifrost Uber. I am not sure how discerning my ears are when it comes to DACs. I compared the GO to a Chord Hugo. While I think the Chord Hugo is better. I don't know if I could pick out the Chord over the GO in a blind A/B comparison. And for the extra $2,350, for me, I don't see the value in buying a Hugo.
Any thoughts?
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I just bought Greed's Geek Out 450 DAC.
It's pretty great sounding as far as I can tell so far.
I was also considering picking up a Schiit Bifrost Uber USB2, but has anyone compared the Bifrost to a Geek Out? (I've never had a chance to listen to the Bifrost)
I am just not sure I will be able to hear any difference and if it's worth spending the extra money on a Bifrost Uber. I am not sure how discerning my ears are when it comes to DACs. I compared the GO to a Chord Hugo. While I think the Chord Hugo is better. I don't know if I could pick out the Chord over the GO in a blind A/B comparison. And for the extra $2,350, for me, I don't see the value in buying a Hugo.
Any thoughts?
Darin,
That's probably because the Hugo is horrible in terms of price/performance.
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I have a Bifrost Uber (Gen 1 USB though), and have a GO450 out there somewhere that I will get at some point. I'd be glad to post thoughts when I get them in house.
Alternatively, you're welcome to borrow the Bifrost for a demo. It really is just sitting in a box in a closet so as long as you don't mind paying return shipping, you may as well have a demo.
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I just bought Greed's Geek Out 450 DAC.
It's pretty great sounding as far as I can tell so far.
I was also considering picking up a Schiit Bifrost Uber USB2, but has anyone compared the Bifrost to a Geek Out? (I've never had a chance to listen to the Bifrost)
I am just not sure I will be able to hear any difference and if it's worth spending the extra money on a Bifrost Uber. I am not sure how discerning my ears are when it comes to DACs. I compared the GO to a Chord Hugo. While I think the Chord Hugo is better. I don't know if I could pick out the Chord over the GO in a blind A/B comparison. And for the extra $2,350, for me, I don't see the value in buying a Hugo.
Any thoughts?
I'm with you here Darin. After spending a solid week with the Hugo, I've come to the same conclusion as blue. The device as a whole is just meh. Like I said in my impressions from the last OC meet, the presentation is crap. The build quality on this thing is just piss poor. The connectivity has become more of a problem than I had anticipated. I can't find one single aftermarket micro-usb cable to work with the damn recessed jacks. I've tried 3-4, from Belkin to AQ.
On the flip side, I think the SQ is actually pretty good for what it is. I had to get past all of my bias and frustration with the device and just listen. I've come to the conclusion that if this device was put to use both at home, in the office, and on-the-go... it would be a decent buy. Amp section is nothing special, and I'm personally not a fan but it is powerful enough for the HD800, LCD-3, Slants.. and dead silent with IEMs. I mentioned to Clem that I think it is a Class D amp, because it has some similar characteristics (lack of dynamics, stridency, and lifeless mid-range). When I hooked the Hugo up to my Super 7, I liked what I was hearing. Plenty of kick, good detail, and no etch like before.
I can't recommend the Hugo but it isn't all shit. The DAC has impressed me for what it is. Very clean, detailed sound but I wouldn't take it over the M7, PWD MKII, or any of my DACs I have currently (Analog/Bricasti).
Like I said when we met, I think the GO is a stellar product and an even better value. It easily beats the DAPs I've heard (AK 240/120, HM-901 w/ balanced card, ZX1, few others). I can't say for certain, but I'd imagine the Bifrost w/ Gen 2 might outdo the GO from memory but not by much and certainly not in terms of value.
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From September's issue of Stereophile, JA on the PS Audio Directstream DAC:
http://imgur.com/a/u5Wyn
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From September's issue of Stereophile, JA on the PS Audio Directstream DAC:
http://imgur.com/a/u5Wyn
But but but... it makes all other DACs sound broken!! facepalm
Congrats to PS on their 17/96 DAC with DSD Awesomeness(TM)
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Poor LF linearity is probably a function of their transformer-coupled output stage. :spank:
Its sound is starting to make a lot more sense to me.
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Poor LF linearity is probably a function of their transformer-coupled output stage. :spank:
Its sound is starting to make a lot more sense to me.
Sounds like a good opportunity for Rick Cullen to get back into the modding game. For only an extra three thousand dollars you can have a five thousand dollar DAC not sound like shit + shiny WBT connectors!
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Yeah, my eyes widened when I got my issue this month.
Of course, that DAC is on the cover while the Antelope Zodiac absolutely wooped the Direcstream's ass but is treated like more of an "also ran."
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Has anyone heard Ayon Audio stuff?
I got to hear a Ayon CD player/ dac that made me realize how much i can't read everyone's advice on hi-fi equipment when comparing it to my Yulong DA8. I was 1k$ late to this forum facepalm.
I realize that being much better than DA8 doesn't automatically make it a great dac. ?poo?
I'm wondering how the Ayon thing would sound next to some well regarded dacs (sub 3000$) here?
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All:
After two years, my BIfrost Uber + (Lyr or ZD prototype) has music coming out of only one HP cup. More specifically, there is no sound coming out of the left HP cup (I tried with both the Senn HD 650 and 800). Strangely, when I use my Geek Out 720, there is no problem; I have sound in stereo. I tried both the Senns and relieved to know I did not blow a driver.
In your opinion, should I be testing the DAC or both amps for potential problems?
Thanks
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And oh, I forgot to add...when I try the laptop earphone out, there is no problem either. I have stereo sound. So I'm guessing my laptop is not the issue either.
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In your opinion, should I be testing the DAC or both amps for potential problems?
In all such cases, you just have to work backwards along the chain, swapping things out until you find the cause of the problem.
Another approach, which may require less kit for swapping, is to swap the channels, L/R, and see if the problem changes side at the 'phones or speakers.
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Does someone know where could I find some great documentation on DACs :)p5 I'm a noob in this matter :)p18
Recently someone proposed me a Audio-GD NFB-11 2014 and tell me it was better than my Burson HA 160DS. The thing is I don't know why :)p18
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In your opinion, should I be testing the DAC or both amps for potential problems?
In all such cases, you just have to work backwards along the chain, swapping things out until you find the cause of the problem.
Another approach, which may require less kit for swapping, is to swap the channels, L/R, and see if the problem changes side at the 'phones or speakers.
Yep...isolated one problem but need to test a couple of more scenarios. Good to have a spare DAC!
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Does someone know where could I find some great documentation on DACs :)p5 I'm a noob in this matter :)p18
You could start here. http://www.stereophile.com/features/396bits/index.html
We should probably sticky it along with other articles....
I'm sure ultrabike and others could provide a long list of technical papers and material if you are that into it.
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Does someone know where could I find some great documentation on DACs :)p5 I'm a noob in this matter :)p18
You could start here. http://www.stereophile.com/features/396bits/index.html
We should probably sticky it along with other articles....
I'm sure ultrabike and others could provide a long list of technical papers and material if you are that into it.
Thanks a lot !
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Not sure where else to put my Yulong DA8 thoughts. If you check out Marv's thoughts on his big Head-Fi DAC thread, I agree with a lot of that. Some main points:
- Surprisingly not grating on the ears, not lean sounding. If anything, a touch warm and thick.
- Bass and low-mids have a nice sense of body to them, but, OTOH, are a bit muddy and could use some more kick down low.
- Treble isn't hyper-detailed or sharp. Actually fairly smooth and easy to listen to, IMO, but I do sense a bit of treble thinness.
- Some treble details get kinda lost. Not the most resolving DAC I've heard. Some treble details are brought to the forefront when they shouldn't be.
- Soundstage is kinda small and intimate. Not a great sense of depth and layering or air. Related to some of the treble details being brought forward and some being left behind.
- Kind of dynamically grey sounding. Just not the most lively DAC I've ever heard. But at least it's pretty easy to listen to.
- I have a very hard time telling between the two filters. There is a bit of difference between slow + no jitter reduction compared to fast + jitter reduction on, but I've heard DACs where different filters are noticeably different sounding. Fast + jitter reduction might be a bit cleaner and more detailed sounding, maybe a touch more kick down low, maybe not. Honestly was hard for me to tell, so I wouldn't trust my thoughts on that.
Not bad, enjoyable, fairly easy to listen to. Just quite too expensive for what you get.
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I actually found it easier to tell the filters apart than the jitter option. Sharp and Slow basically described the sound, though I'd liken it more to "normal" vs "mush".
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I am in a search for a good affordable DAC, up to 500USD most probably (doesn't really need to be uber-resolving)... If you don't mind, I would like to ask some questions:
1) Are there quality DACs with AKM chips other than those from Schiit?
2) Is there any general answer on WM8741 vs AKM chips in terms of sound signature, or completely dependent on implementation?
3) Are there any interesting (different/unique in some way from commercially available variants) DIY DAC projects worth trying (or at least looking into)?
Thank you very much in advance :-DD
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I am in a search for a good affordable DAC, up to 500USD most probably (don't really need to be uber-resolving)... If you don't mind, I would like to ask some questions:
1) Are there quality DACs with AKM chips other than those from Schiit?
2) Is there any general answer on WM8741 vs AKM chips in terms of sound signature, or completely dependent on implementation?
3) Are there any DIY DAC projects worth trying (or at least looking into)?
Thank you very much in advance :-DD
Definitely a "sound" to the chips. Implementation matters, but D to A conversion is the heart.
The Wolfson implementations have been the most variable. AMD Gamma2 having great almost darkish tone and good bass slam. PWD2 being hyperr-resolving but dry and raspy. AK120v1 being resolving and laid-back.
AD1955 is good. I don't think I've ever heard an AD1955 implementation with "treble issues". From Lavry to Emotiva to Bricasti
Cirrus is laid-back to boring.
AKM, and they have been quite a few AKM chipses, all sound a bit different. Still, there is a house sound. I think there is a sweetness to the AKMs.
SABRE = a symbol of everything that is wrong with modern digital.
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Dacport LX is a cheap option for AKM. LX is noticeably better than the non LX. I don't recommend it.
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I thought the Gamma2 was one of the best options under $500. Great tone, surprisingly big sound. Some of the Audio-GD Wolfson DACs with selectable filters are pretty good too, but I get the impression from others they can be hit-and-miss (I like my cheapy, used NFB-3.2). But I have to imagine it would be a pretty safe bet going Wolfson + Audio-GD route...just Gamma2 is a better value proposition and is known to be excellent.
Metrum Quads can sometimes be found for $400 or so, though you'll want a good converter for those. But do read up on how they sound, as they might not be your thing (very smooth, easy to listen to, not very resolving...I like it, you might not).
The AD1955 DAC I tried, I think it was the Mini-I, sounded pretty good. Nothing particularly wrong with it, but I preferred the Gamma2's tone and presentation.
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I rather asked because I've seen quite a few posts across the internet stating that 'implementation is everything' or 'DAC chips themselves don't matter much (if at all)'.
Dacport LX is a cheap option for AKM. LX is noticeably better than the non LX. I don't recommend it.
Thank you!
I thought the Gamma2 was one of the best options under $500. Great tone, surprisingly big sound. Some of the Audio-GD Wolfson DACs with selectable filters are pretty good too, but I get the impression from others they can be hit-and-miss (I like my cheapy, used NFB-3.2). But I have to imagine it would be a pretty safe bet going Wolfson + Audio-GD route...just Gamma2 is a better value proposition and is known to be excellent.
Metrum Quads can sometimes be found for $400 or so, though you'll want a good converter for those. But do read up on how they sound, as they might not be your thing (very smooth, easy to listen to, not very resolving...I like it, you might not).
The AD1955 DAC I tried, I think it was the Mini-I, sounded pretty good. Nothing particularly wrong with it, but I preferred the Gamma2's tone and presentation.
Yeah, I have Gamma 2, Bifrost, Audio-GD NFB-17.32 (WM8741 w/ selectable OS and filters) and Emotiva DC-1 on my shortlist.
How significant is the 'UBER' upgrade of the Bifrost?
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SABRE = a symbol of everything that is wrong with modern digital.
At RMAF I listened to the Bel Canto DAC2.7 (http://www.audiostream.com/content/bel-canto-refstream) using the supplied LCD-XC. The DAC2.7 uses a BurrBrown DAC(1792/4/6?) but everything is run through ASRC, and it reminded me how much suck ASRC introduces to the signal. It's almost shocking how ASRC really isn't any better than it was over a decade ago. It's still adding the same basic artifacts. (Maybe not quite to the same degree.)
So...it appears the SABRE can be run synchronously (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred4/sidebar.html) where the ASRC drops out, but I don't know if any products run it synchronously.
Bruno P.utzeys: [link] (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-197.html#post2898757) I also worry about the SRC on the ESS not being defeatable (if it is the same one I tested 4 years ago it's not that great) but it becomes transparent if you lock all clocks together. [more] (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/190434-hypex-ncore-199.html#post2900076)
For his technical takedown of ASRC as typically implemented: slides 92-100 (http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/AES123BP.pdf)
I'm curious if SABREy-ness is thought to be a function of ASRC alone? Do any known synchronous SABRE DAC implementations avoid this quality that pirates dread?
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A BMC Puredac for example sounds more akin some AD1955 implementation.
The designer at BMC said that they managed to get the xmos usb working synchronously with the 9016 chip. I have no idea if this is to blame for the sound, its also has discrete output devices (rare with ESS chips). Anyhow it kinda lacks Sabrenous treble and bass, though is still bright sounding dac.
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I am in a search for a good affordable DAC, up to 500USD most probably (doesn't really need to be uber-resolving)... If you don't mind, I would like to ask some questions:
1) Are there quality DACs with AKM chips other than those from Schiit?
2) Is there any general answer on WM8741 vs AKM chips in terms of sound signature, or completely dependent on implementation?
3) Are there any interesting (different/unique in some way from commercially available variants) DIY DAC projects worth trying (or at least looking into)?
Thank you very much in advance :-DD
I have the Beresford Caiman mkII currently . more than two weeks of use ( about 20/25 hours of listening) and I don't miss the Metrum Octave in my HD800 System. That says something because I love my metrum dac. My USB to SPDIF converter is broken so I can't use the Metrum right now.
The Caiman have a kind of analog tone but less thick than the Octave. Dynamics and holographic soundstage are really really good. this dac is highly resolving but without brightness or treble glare I couldn't bear with my unmodded HD800. I'm not so convinced by the embedded HO but i asked Stanley Beresford to optimize this HO for Low Z high sensitivity headphones so obviously I couldn't expect good results with my HD800.
I'm waiting to get back my Converter in order to make new A/B comparison but selling my octave is not excluded.
http://www.beresford.me/products/TC-7534.html 380€ shipped and IMO the caiman mkII fights way above its price. I would be very interested to have other pyrates opinions. I'm not so experienced myself so I'm afraid to give you wrong impressions about this dac.
I have the Bushmaster at home too. less analog sound, still an impressive 3D soundstage, great dynamics and detail but the overall tone is a bit too thin for my tastes. it seems I can hear too much treble etch with the HD800 too. IMO, this dac would be a perfect match with thicker and darker headphones. about 230 € shipped ?
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Tor4:
Did you have a chance to compare Compass to DA8?
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Do dacs really make such a whole lot difference? Not saying it's not possible but the ridiculous prices I see for these dacs I wonder sometimes. I just don't have much experience as you guys so I guess im not entitled to a judgement on this matter. I plan on moving up from my echo audiofire 2 one day but don't know if I ever find something with noticable differences enough to risk it and at reasonable price.
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My experience is limited... I've used Bifrost, Gungnir, BMC PureDAC, Yulong DA8, Denon 300 USB whatever it's called, Modi, and the PWD II. I can say that there are clear differences between most of them.
For me, the PWD sounded the best, but I didn't do any scientific testing. I didn't have the same amp or phones for most of these... so it's possible that the differences I heard weren't strictly DAC related. But, when I compare my experiences with what other people say about them, I generally agree. That's enough for me to believe.
All I can say is try it for yourself.
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I used to have the Echo IndigoDJ and currently have the Echo2USB. I've had a lot of stuff in between over the years from both the hifi and prosumer end, but the Echo gear has stuck around the longest with me. Perhaps the sound sig just agrees with me (I find them fairly relaxed and at times maybe a bit too much so, but anytime I veer higher I get fatigued), or perhaps I just enjoy the price/performance/size ratio.
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The only dac I could compare my echo to is the circus logic dac built into my onkyo receiver for digital audio. I just found the signal bit cleaner with my echo when I had my receiver hooked to my computer through a 75ohm trishield coaxial directly back of motherboard and my interface plugged via balanced rca to 1/4" cables. Both were running at 24bit/96khz. Had coaxial tied/programmed to cd input and the interface hooked to dvd front input so I can instantiously swtich between dacs.
Found my echo to sound bit cleaner to me but soundwise bout the same. There were maybe couple times I thought the circus logic in my receiver sounded bit brighter but maybe mind playing tricks or something.
My echo uses a ak4620 chip which is supposedly developed by texas instrument if that matters. My receiver uses supposedly a decent circus logic dac but can't find any info on the chip model.
I found out echo no longer produces the audiofire 2/4/8 anymore and only the expensive 12 which uses the same ak4620 chip. The 12 use to use a circus logic chip but because of issues they switched back to the ak4620 chip unless they made more changes again recently. I know when I bought my audiofire 2 under high recomendations I was gonna see if going to an 8/12 be better but was told echo uses the same chip in all of them. Maybe that's why they probably stopped producing the 2/4/8 models.
I bought my audiofire 2 for 110 from a head-fier few years ago cause after he bought it he got new laptop next day and it had no ieee 1349/firewire port so found no use for it I bought it off of him and been happy with it's performance/clarity ever since.
Was thinking of trying the modi but supposedly it uses a ak chip too and it using usb I don't know if it be any good or better than my echo. I always used firewire and never was fond of using usb but im probably just being silly and jumping to conclusions before even giving anything a chance.
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I plan on moving up from my echo audiofire 2 one day
Hey, I've got one of those too! :)
I've been thinking about going back to it to make a change, as, for listening (and I haven't recorded anything for ages) I now use an ODAC. Is it better that the Audiofire2? Probably. Probably cleaner, more exact. Perhaps even a little clinical. Of course, it didn't cost much. Probably less than the Audiofire.
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Hey, I've got one of those too! :)
I've been thinking about going back to it to make a change, as, for listening (and I haven't recorded anything for ages) I now use an ODAC. Is it better that the Audiofire2? Probably. Probably cleaner, more exact. Perhaps even a little clinical. Of course, it didn't cost much. Probably less than the Audiofire.
Don't the odac cost like 150? So in my case it'll cost more to me. I got my echo for 110 near brand new.
Did you directly compare the 2? Don't the modi use same chip as the odac or something? I read the modi is slightly better or bout the same, is that true?
Im just curious.
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I don't know about the modi, but the ODAC uses Sabre chip, which seems to inspire a lot of criticism. I don't know why that is, probably because I have not had the opportunity to compare too many DACs/chips. Maybe, next year, I might move upmarket and go for something like a Gungnir. To be honest, I have almost no clue as to what I should get next!
I used to use the headphone-out of the Audiofire. Have you ever tried it? It was plugging my headphones into an integrated amp that made me realise that it is not really very good.
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I don't know about the modi, but the ODAC uses Sabre chip, which seems to inspire a lot of criticism. I don't know why that is, probably because I have not had the opportunity to compare too many DACs/chips. Maybe, next year, I might move upmarket and go for something like a Gungnir. To be honest, I have almost no clue as to what I should get next!
I used to use the headphone-out of the Audiofire. Have you ever tried it? It was plugging my headphones into an integrated amp that made me realise that it is not really very good.
Oh, alright. Then it's different then. The modi uses an ak chip or something.
I tried the headphone out before on my audiofire as both an output an headphone out. It uses a separate chip to split the balanced and unbalanced/headphone output.
I thought the headphone output wasn't that bad. It worked fine on the sextetts lp, k601, and k702 I use to have. Sounded good but not as nice as my power amps. It was ok with the SA5000 but the SA5000 are really "source" picky instead of "amp" picky. Only headphones didn't do so well amping wise was my 240DF and modded fostex t50rp. Fostex though was weird cause they usually fine on anything like my phone.
The headphone output as another output is not as nice as the dedicated balanced outputs...well never sounded as clean using my Harman kardon hk770 dual-mono power amp. The balanced outputs are very good though and gives very clean output.
I think cause the headphone output has a separate chip with a different output impedance compared to the balanced outputs/inputs. The ouput impedance for balance outputs are 600ohms compared to 50ohms on the unbalanced/headphone output.
I never use the headphone output for anything, even headphones. I always use the balanced connectors with pair 3ft. Balance rca to 1/4" cables. Even when I use my interface as stand alone dac for my phone or Xbox I use the balanced inputs (well have to. Only way to use it as a separate dac without use of firewire).
Have you always used the unbalanced/headphone output? I would never use that for an ouput personally. When I first got into recording everyone, even a good friend advised who recommended the echo to never use the headphone output and only the balanced connectors and he was right.
Even when I used my interface like a somewhat preamp for my Yamaha power amp I had it hooked directly to balanced outputs.
Also, I found if using certain power amps or you're just using separates/integrated amps/receivers it's best to keep the output at -10dbv for the cleanest ouput signal unless you need a power amp or something that requires the slight extra voltage swing from +4dbu from my experience.
Hardcore recording enthusiasts always tell you to keep it at +4dbu but in my experience, no you don't. The signal seems lot cleaner in playback with -10dbv. Only reason I see use of the extra voltage swing and without affecting the signal using +4dbu is very long cable runs (like more then 50ft atleast) and certain mixers and power amps......
Anyhoo, I probably give the odac a shot in the near future then see if it will be an improvement. I can probably find one used for bout 100 bucks I guess but might wait cause im really interested in the vali amp and my curiosity is getting to me. If the praise for it correct and under good recommendations here then it'll seem a perfect candidate to see what good headamp can do compared speaker outputs of power amps and probably complement my other gear. Get that then try the odac.
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That is very interesting. I'm not sure I ever met a fellow Audiofire user before! I have to read your post a couple more times in the light of day.
When I started getting sound out of a PC around 2001 or 2002, I quickly climbed a ladder of internal cards from fairly bad to listenable until I reached an RME card which I thought sounded better than my Cyrus CD player at the time. At that time, in that house, the card was connected, in and out, analogue and digital, to the nearby hifi. The WinXP, Pentium machine that I had at that time was probably the least-hassle audio machine I've ever had, and I wish I still did have it.
Later, on different continents and in different houses, I needed to be more desk-top-centric at low cost, and I am still using the M-Audio AV-40s that provided that. I also hit that dreadful deferred proceduer call latency problem that can make combinations of motherboard and soundcard absolutely unusable for audio. I think that the Firewire thing was an attempt to escape DPC latency.
AT that time I was not using headphones at all (except earbuds for commuting/travel), and had never given impedance a second thought. The combination of marriage with my owl-like hours slowly shifted, as things do, from "I don't mind if you listen to your music at night to..." Well, you can guess. I also discovered that I didn't mind open-back headphones, whereas I'd never liked closed-back. The Audiofire has a headphone-out, so, without a second thought, I used it.
The Audiofire's balanced outputs went to balanced input on the AV-40s. To feed the iCAN amp, I have to unbalance that. That can be done; I have made the cables (the extent of my DIY skills) already --- and I feel encouraged to revisit it :)p7
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Hey rex, you may want to stick to that AK4620, I don't know whether you might find the ODAC too grating or not.
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Hey rex, you may want to stick to that AK4620, I don't know whether you might find the ODAC too grating or not.
Like grainy? I remember trying a aleisis interface cause my friend wanted me to test it out but the dumb thing kept shorting out my power amps. When it finally working I tried it, it was clear but guess what you call strident in the upper registers. Is odac like that what you mean im guessing? If it's kinda like that then, yea I probably might not.
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Like grainy? I remember trying a aleisis interface cause my friend wanted me to test it out but the dumb thing kept shorting out my power amps. When it finally working I tried it, it was clear but guess what you call strident in the upper registers. Is odac like that what you mean im guessing? If it's kinda like that then, yea I probably might not.
Not too sure about grainy but maybe like of tonal density? Its fatiguing but not outright harsh. Also the ODAC means extra external psu and tweaking to get it at is best, or else its sound signature can be all over the place. It can be very quick but also slow and muddy at times. Wyrd.
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Not too sure about grainy but maybe like of tonal density? Its fatiguing but not outright harsh. Also the ODAC means extra external psu and tweaking to get it at is best, or else its sound signature can be all over the place. It can be very quick but also slow and muddy at times. Wyrd.
Wyrd? Is that like a seperate usb wall wart or something?
My echo I use a basic radioshack energy cell multiple voltage selector 1A adapter. I thought it wouldn't make a difference when I use the use the echo psu till my cat ate the wire lol. But, anyhoo, when I got it, for some reason it seem to make my echo put out more output slightly but of course runs tad bit warmer. I guess cause the extra 400ma being fed to it (the old echo was 600ma while current one is 1a).
Thing is, can i use something like this? It has a pin where I can put different adapter pins to the psu.
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Geek Out is better than the ODAC, lay that thing to rest unless you want to run straight from a phone.
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I laid my ODAC to rest, at least for the evening, and, encouraged by Rex, gave my Audiofire an outing.
I really didn't feel like doing AB stuff. Without any attempt at objectivity, I can only say that the music flowed through the old Audiofire and the new HD600s in a rich and delightful way.
:)p7
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Geek Out is better than the ODAC, lay that thing to rest unless you want to run straight from a phone.
Okie dookie.
Guess I just stick with my audiofire until I feel the need to get an super duper uber amazing dac....or, ever needing more inputs/outputs.
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Okie dookie.
Guess I just stick with my audiofire until I feel the need to get an super duper uber amazing dac....or, ever needing more inputs/outputs.
Lol, I hope my post didn't come off as saying the ODAC sucks. It's been my go to portable DAC for 1.5 years. The GO is just that much better.
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Geek Out is better than the ODAC, lay that thing to rest unless you want to run straight from a phone.
If your Android phone is getting a Lollipop upgrade, you can run the Geek Out out of it as well.
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If your Android phone is getting a Lollipop upgrade, you can run the Geek Out out of it as well.
Sweet. Now what's the JRiver equivalent for Andriod?
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Lol, I hope my post didn't come off as saying the ODAC sucks. It's been my go to portable DAC for 1.5 years. The GO is just that much better.
Haha, naw. Just took it as "you're being annoying now and your current dac is good enough for now so please spare my brain cells from having to read your post".
I was just curious about them and wonder what makes them what they are and why. I don't need anything portable really. I keep my echo hooked at home unless I desperately need it for other room or something.
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Geek Out is better than the ODAC, lay that thing to rest unless you want to run straight from a phone.
Thanks. You saved me the need to experiment. I have the GO 720.
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Guess I just stick with my audiofire until I feel the need to get an super duper uber amazing dac....or, ever needing more inputs/outputs.
My feeling too. And I have the ODAC anyway.
Lol, I hope my post didn't come off as saying the ODAC sucks. It's been my go to portable DAC for 1.5 years. The GO is just that much better.
Sometimes the world gives me ODAC inferiority complex! Mix that with the attitude of audiophiles to stuff that doesn't come with a recognised hifi brand gnawing away at my insides, and you can see that I'm a pretty mixed-up individual. lol.
Thanks. You saved me the need to experiment. I have the GO 720.
You can hear my ODAC any day ...but you have to bring your Gungnir. And your HD800 :)
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You can hear my ODAC any day ...but you have to bring your Gungnir. And your HD800 :)
We can easily do this in a couple of weeks Nick. Do you have your own amp. I can bring the Vali or the BH Crack.
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Oh great! I have an an ifi iCAN.
Sundays is the day when I have the house to myself, but I'm the one who doesn't have to work, so at your convenience. Email me
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If your Android phone is getting a Lollipop upgrade, you can run the Geek Out out of it as well.
Some of that will depend on the output power on the micro USB 2.0/3.0 port for the particular phone. I'm hopeful!
Sweet. Now what's the JRiver equivalent for Andriod?
Gizmo lets you stream from your JRMC media server directly to your android device...but it's not a very good player otherwise.
For players, UAPP & Neutron are my go to.
UAPP's interface is balls...not "the balls," just balls. Neutron has a slightly better interface and more features. HTC's stock Sense player isn't bad either and Sony's Walkman player is also acceptable. I wasn't a fan of Poweramp's sound, though I loved the interface. Also didn't think much of the sound of GoneMad, RocketPlayer, DoubleTwist, PlayerPro, or JetAudio.
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I've been toying with replacing the Master 7 with a Meitner MA1, but the Meitner will be going back now. I just received my Lampizator back and for the first time have it working i2s > Offramp. Turns out the Offramp really begins to work stable at 75 ohm termination and some of the resistors in the Lampi needed adjusting. I'm a little disappointed that Marv didn't try his Offramp with the Lampi. In this configuration (i2s) it's stunning, truly and makes the M7 sound awfully flat in comparison (flat dimensionally and flat emotionally). Even the MA1, for all its talents at extracting a bunch from a recording, is a comparative bore. The Lampi 4 or 4.5 (my case) is wasted if run via USB. There's too much missing...
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Oh, I don't disagree on the M7 sounding relatively flat and lacking depth. Those weaknesses were already noted in a direct comparison against the PWD1->2. It was fun though trying to tweak around those deficiencies with OR5, DACLadder HDMI, etc.
Ultimately, the change to more speaker listening did in the M7 for me. I have a serious inability recognizing depth and staging with headphones - or maybe when it comes to headphones I don't care. Also results of dynamic compression are more notable to me with speaker vs. headphones, probably because there is more visceral impact. In other words, speaker listening revealed M7's weaknesses more for me.
I can't say that I loved the Lampi's (as implemented) that I've heard. Every one of them had "digititus" issues only made even more evident by the solid tube implementations which let everything through. Stridency, delta-sigma haze/hash treble shit, etc. I can definitely see how the OR5 could mitigate those issues. But the key word is mitigate not eliminate. Some tube rolling might also help with the digititus.
Ultimately, Lampi isn't R2R, and given the amount of effort to tweak tubes, the high prices, strange build construction, I didn't feel I couldn't recommend it to people in general unless they were the type that were willing to tinker with it.
Personally, I feel vintage Sonic Frontiers SFD-1 with a decent CD transport is better overall than the Lampi's I've heard. Or for that type of sound, I'd rather get Bricasti M1 + EC Amp/preamp than the Big 7 at lower price, better functionality, and better sonics with no OR5 required too.
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You bring up something very interesting and admittedly something I'm not all too familiar with (despite having owned several 2k + Delta Sigma DAC's). The so called haze and hash I'm hearing with the Lampi + Offramp. I'm a little surprised that it pulls more through a recording than even the M1. Some of it is nasty sounding, a granular hash, most notably on sub-par recordings. I don't know if this is detail left alone by the other DAC's or if it's specific to this DAC. It doesn't bother me all that much, considering the trade off.
With the M7, PWD, Invicta, Hex and M1 to a lesser extent, I would find myself fading away from the music I was listening to. With the Lampi it's the opposite as I cannot pull away from what I'm listening to. I was moments from selling my SR009, for it was sterile with 90% of my non-jazz/classical recordings. Just wasn't worth the investment for "audiophile" recordings. Similarly with the HE60. I feel differently now and am giddy as a schoolgirl LISTENING nowadays. It's a great relief and a reminder of what counts in this hobby. You should know something about this being more of a veteran than even I; it's great when you can step back from tinkering, if only for a few transient moments.
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Personally, I feel vintage Sonic Frontiers SFD-1 with a decent CD transport is better overall than the Lampi's I've heard. Or for that type of sound, I'd rather get Bricasti M1 + EC Amp/preamp than the Big 7 at lower price, better functionality, and better sonics with no OR5 required too.
Yeah, you're killing me with your vintage experimentation. If only you were less trustworthy than I have discovered, I could dismiss your findings. As it stands I'm considering a Mark Levinson 30.6 which a buddy of mine is "willing" to let go for 5k. Couldn't you stay happy with the M7? Now I need to know... :(
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Yeah, you're killing me with your vintage experimentation. If only you were less trustworthy than I have discovered, I could dismiss your findings. As it stands I'm considering a Mark Levinson 30.6 which a buddy of mine is "willing" to let go for 5k. Couldn't you stay happy with the M7? Now I need to know... :(
That's a pretty good deal for a 30.6, about $1K less than I can recall seeing it elsewhere. Just make very sure it's in good shape though, they are not easy to service.
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makes the M7 sound awfully flat in comparison (flat dimensionally and flat emotionally).
My PWD mk1>2 already does that without an OR5 or i2S as long as you don't use USB. Marv already pointed this out and it's in the comparison.
The Lampi is quite resolving, but the digititus was a deal breaker on the unit we heard. That doesn't impact resolution but just annoys. It is something you can get used to as I have on the PWD under certain circumstances. Hell, most SS users get used to it obviously or it never would have caught on.
Also, stridency on recording masters is different from the sound of treble oscillation or etch added to the mix by upstream gear.
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Yeah, you're killing me with your vintage experimentation. If only you were less trustworthy than I have discovered, I could dismiss your findings. As it stands I'm considering a Mark Levinson 30.6 which a buddy of mine is "willing" to let go for 5k. Couldn't you stay happy with the M7? Now I need to know... :(
The 30.6 didn't use Ultra Analog chips. 30,30.5 and 35 yes.
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My PWD mk1>2 already does that without an OR5 or i2S as long as you don't use USB. Marv already pointed this out and it's in the comparison.
The Lampi is quite resolving, but the digititus was a deal breaker on the unit we heard. That doesn't impact resolution but just annoys. It is something you can get used to as I have on the PWD under certain circumstances. Hell, most SS users get used to it obviously or it never would have caught on.
Also, stridency on recording masters is different from the sound of treble oscillation or etch added to the mix by upstream gear.
I didn't especially pick up on how flat the M7 was when I owned the PWD, but remember distinctly preferring the tone and relaxed nature of the M7. The PWD + Offramp was too much of a good thing for me. It was bold, brazen and energetic, but to the point of distraction. The M7 came along with its subdued character and seduced my ears for a time. The Lampi is a little different from the others and shakes the emotion out of a recording in a way the M7 never could for me (as I found the Reference 7, the M7 was similarly a little soft and dynamically challenged). This wasn't particularly evident when the Lampi was running via SPDIF, but the i2s connection appears to me a breakthrough of sorts. The hash, however, is different from what I remember on the PWD and is recording-specific. There is a noise, or a static melange that I can hear -- it crackles and shimmers softly in the background. I don't know if this is the same as digititus, but as I said, I can easily move past it.
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The 30.6 didn't use Ultra Analog chips. 30,30.5 and 35 yes.
It was still R2R though - a 24/96 capable chip supposedly designed and built by Madrigal, but I've always wondered about that, and why they never used it in anything but the 30.6. You'd think they would want it in their transports and the 360 considering the effort that would be involved in something like that, which makes me think that the chips were probably in reality some type of modification to the PCM1704.
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I didn't especially pick up on how flat the M7 was when I owned the PWD, but remember distinctly preferring the tone and relaxed nature of the M7. The PWD + Offramp was too much of a good thing for me. It was bold, brazen and energetic, but to the point of distraction. The M7 came along with its subdued character and seduced my ears for a time. The Lampi is a little different from the others and shakes the emotion out of a recording in a way the M7 never could for me (as I found the Reference 7, the M7 was similarly a little soft and dynamically challenged). This wasn't particularly evident when the Lampi was running via SPDIF, but the i2s connection appears to me a breakthrough of sorts. The hash, however, is different from what I remember on the PWD and is recording-specific. There is a noise, or a static melange that I can hear -- it crackles and shimmers softly in the background. I don't know if this is the same as digititus, but as I said, I can easily move past it.
So you didn't notice edgy tones ?
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The PWD2 I would describe as "raspy". One Lampi 4 or 5 that I heard had what you described: "noise, or a static melange that I can hear -- it crackles and shimmers softly"; and another Lampi Big 5 was simply super strident / sibilant. I think Anax, OJ, and I all ended up with headaches after that one.
I'm sure OR5, appropriate transport, and/or proper tube rolling may have greatly ameliorated those "annoying" things as Anax put it. The Lampi is resolving, very lively, and macrodynamically capable though - not disagreement there at all.
LOL, when I think about it, my circumstances are different. I'd rather take Anax's PWD2, find the V+ / V- outs of the Wolfson chips, drill two holes in the chassis, and pay Craig $2K to have tubes sticking out of it. You guys know what I'm saying. I have a hard time with the concept of the Lampi DACs.
I mean, I can take an AMB Gamma 2 and add small tubes, call it Marvi DAC Shlong 5. And then maybe a Behringer DCX2496 and add bigger tubes, and call it Marvi DAC Big Shlong 7. Then Wyrd+OR+PWD1-2 + driver + DHT tubes in three boxes, I can call it Marvi Big Schlong DAC 9 the outboard Tesicular Fortitude Power Supply. But I just wouldn't do that.
Again, don't take this the wrong way. Sort of thinking out loud and amused at the Lampi concept.
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It's nothing to me. I don't usually find myself playing the part of apostle to any manufacturer. The Lampi works in my system, which is not to say it'll work for anyone else. Just as I love my Zana Deux and Balancing Act, I'm no EC or tube amp proselyte; I find my Dynahi to be on equal (or near equal) footing. It should also be noted that I run my gear out of a BPT 3.5+ conditioner, which may or may not contribute to differences (the damn thing costs, or did before it was discontinued, nearly as much as the BA, so I should hope it does something!)
The Wyrd will be here in a couple of days and hopefully it can displace the Aqvox in my system (or better still there is no change at all). I posted this question elsewhere, but while I have you here Marv, can you recommend an alternative PSU for the Offramp. The Dynamo seems an inflated proposition, and I know you went an alternate route (for how $ I don't know).
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So you didn't notice edgy tones ?
I noticed a bit of stridency via USB, but nothing of note via SPDIF/I2S > OR5.
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I noticed a bit of stridency via USB, but nothing of note via SPDIF/I2S > OR5.
Did you have duelund caps ?
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I mean, I can take an AMB Gamma 2 and add small tubes, call it Marvi DAC Shlong 5.
$1199.
And then maybe a Behringer DCX2496 and add bigger tubes, and call it Marvi DAC Big Shlong 7.
$2299.
Then Wyrd+OR+PWD1-2 + driver + DHT tubes in three boxes, I can call it Marvi Big Schlong DAC 9 the outboard Tesicular Fortitude Power Supply.
$4499.
I think Mike Moffat might be envious of the names, though.
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Did you have duelund caps ?
Yeah, my unit has Deulands.
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The new Marvy Schlong DACs... 5, 7, 9... That's inches. right?
Damn! Must check out how mine measures....
:)p2
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How about a portable one that fits in my pocket? :)p8
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$1199.
$2299.
$4499.
I think Mike Moffat might be envious of the names, though.
Mike gets 2% commission for coming up with the names. The prices are too low. They need to double, otherwise the DACs won't be taken seriously.
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Don't forget the $100k+ model for sale into mainland China. If it's not over $100k it's not worthwhile. If you can hit the mystical $500k figure you'll sell a dozen in your first run easily.
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They need to double, otherwise the DACs won't be taken seriously.
my ex apparently felt the same about my schlong.
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Don't forget the $100k+ model for sale into mainland China. If it's not over $100k it's not worthwhile. If you can hit the mystical $500k figure you'll sell a dozen in your first run easily.
By far the most important thing is casework. If you've got an unnecessarily huge case, you're golden.
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue47/images/dartzeel_458_side.jpg)
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p:3 p:0
Wow, what kind of a schlong is that?
It certainly cries out for matching colour customising of the headphones, with particular attention being paid to the gold metal work.
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By far the most important thing is casework. If you've got an unnecessarily huge case, you're golden.
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue47/images/dartzeel_458_side.jpg)
Seems like something a black dude with a cadilac with some gold spinners would own. Would need it for their 15" rockford subs to get some 2 chainz to pump cleanly.
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Nobody pimps bigger than DarTZeel. I'm sellin' pleasure control baby.
(http://im.tech2.in.com/gallery/2013/nov/dartzeel1_141558239632.jpg)
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who would ever turn the pleasure control down?
oh, emo kids.
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who would ever turn the pleasure control down?
:D
My thoughts exactly!
I don't mind people buying for looks. If we are honest with ourselves, I believe that most of us are, or have been at some time, influenced by appearance and other non-audio features. I fell in love with a volume knob once, Ohh... it was just so silky smooth but solid...
But lets get practical. The ridiculous thing there is not the red and gold, which actually makes a nice change, but look at the vibration control underneath it! Guys, Guys... If it does not have tubes and it is not a turntable it is not microphonic, OK? Unless it is, somehow, so spectacularly badly engineered that it must have been intentional
:)p7 walk the plank2
Of course, I am not talking to the guys who put hydraulic suspension units under their speaker cables. Why not? Well... wouldn't be much point in talking to them!
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Seems like something a black dude with a cadilac with some gold spinners would own. Would need it for their 15" rockford subs to get some 2 chainz to pump cleanly.
Needs moar purple and diamonds.
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May be a new contender for the "best DAC" in the 10.000 $ price range ? A beauty ! :D
A very high quality DAC coming from UK & that is not very well known: the VAD new dual mono DAC-12 DSD: http://valveaudiodevices.co.uk/products/vad-dac-12-dsd/ (http://valveaudiodevices.co.uk/products/vad-dac-12-dsd/)
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/9/99/900x900px-LL-99eee91e_DAC-Valveaudiodevices12_Black.png)
(http://www.head-fi.org/image/id/6708462/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
2 totally separate DAC engines: one for PCM and one for DSD ! This DSD playback is completely separate from the PCM DAC: It has its own dedicated USB, mains power supplies and analogue path.
Anyone has heard it ?
I wonder if it will offer a good synergy with my Eddie Current 445 tube headphone amp ?
(http://www.head-fi.org/image/id/6708417/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
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By far the most important thing is casework. If you've got an unnecessarily huge case, you're golden.
(http://archive.wired.com/images/article/full/2008/04/ironman_630px.jpg)
Casework awesomeness
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So I'm pretty curious about the Rockna Wavedream:
http://www.rockna-audio.com/products/wavedream-dac
It uses MSB's ladder DACs apparently for [a wee bit] less money.
I dig the retro styling.
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A very nice DAC indeed. It's R2R architecture makes it a very good candidate for feeding the EC445 :P
the list of R2R DAC for the EC445 gets longueur :-) (TotalDAC, MSB, WaveDream;..)
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Casework awesomeness
Yep. It would actually be kind of funny if DarTZeel's monos made cameos in the next Iron Man movie like the Michell Gyrodec in Looper. I would rather see that than a stupid vaporware Acura.
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So I'm pretty curious about the Rockna Wavedream:
http://www.rockna-audio.com/products/wavedream-dac
It uses MSB's ladder DACs apparently for [a wee bit] less money.
I dig the retro styling.
How much?
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How much?
Got curious too with quad platinum modules inside... Turns out it's 5000 Euros for the unbalanced version and a whopping 12000 Euro for a balanced "Signature" version. You do have to pay for these MSB modules hehe ;)
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Clicked on an ad here --- this time because it actually looked interesting :)p14
Henry Audio DAC (http://www.henryaudio.com/).
Anyone else think it looks interesting? Anyone heard it? Anyone point me to the ongoing discussion that I failed to find even though I searched?
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I sure do think that the Henry audio DAC looks interesting.
I haven't heard it...
They even show the schematics, and thats a good thing.
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They even show the schematics
Seems the whole thing is open. There's a huge DIYAudio thread --- which would have me lost in half a dozen posts. You can modify the firmware, you can modify the hardware... Well, maybe you could: I couldn't... but yes, it is good to know that all that information is available and all these things are possible.
It's a USB Dac; my only first-sight objection is that it is USB-powered, although there is apparently a lot of work done on the power supply.
The only thing standing between me and trying one is the price. What! I hear people cry! OK, it is low cost as these things go, but it is outside my suck-it-and-see budget, especially at the rest-of-the-world rate plus the import duty I would probably have to pay. And I have been doing very badly at capturing them sovereigns, dubloons and pieces of eight recently :'(
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Looking to be imparted with a little Changstar wisdom...
I'm starting to piece together my first home headphone rig based on the advice I've read here. Got the HD600's--sweet. A Valhalla 2 is on the way. I'm now thinking about source components to complete the system and have decided on a few parameters based on my desire to be a passive couch-dwelling lazy-ass audiophile:
1. My music will live on NAS, but I'd rather not have to boot up a computer every time I listen to music;
2. I'd like integrated access to Spotify or Tidal because that's how I discover new music;
3. I want to be able to control playback of everything from an iPad so I barely have to move;
4. I'd like the source gear to sound awesome without killing my bank account.
Basically I'm trying to design a great sounding rig that gives me access to my digitized music collection and a streaming service with minimal fuss. The first thing I've found that possibly fits the bill is a Bluesound Node. Anyone have experience with it? It has a digital out which provides the option of upgrading the DAC if that's crap.
Anyone have other suggestions? I'd be willing to make some ease-of-use compromises if there was a significant payoff in SQ.
Thanks!
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Looking to be imparted with a little Changstar wisdom...
I'm starting to piece together my first home headphone rig based on the advice I've read here. Got the HD600's--sweet. A Valhalla 2 is on the way. I'm now thinking about source components to complete the system and have decided on a few parameters based on my desire to be a passive couch-dwelling lazy-ass audiophile:
1. My music will live on NAS, but I'd rather not have to boot up a computer every time I listen to music;
2. I'd like integrated access to Spotify or Tidal because that's how I discover new music;
3. I want to be able to control playback of everything from an iPad so I barely have to move;
4. I'd like the source gear to sound awesome without killing my bank account.
Basically I'm trying to design a great sounding rig that gives me access to my digitized music collection and a streaming service with minimal fuss. The first thing I've found that possibly fits the bill is a Bluesound Node. Anyone have experience with it? It has a digital out which provides the option of upgrading the DAC if that's crap.
Anyone have other suggestions? I'd be willing to make some ease-of-use compromises if there was a significant payoff in SQ.
Thanks!
MARANTZ NA7004 NETWORK AUDIO PLAYER. Won't give you some of the fancy options, but will support NAS.
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Anyone have other suggestions? I'd be willing to make some ease-of-use compromises if there was a significant payoff in SQ.
Thanks!
Sonore Rendu? A budget would help...
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MARANTZ NA7004 NETWORK AUDIO PLAYER. Won't give you some of the fancy options, but will support NAS.
Thanks marvey. That looks cool. Is it known to be a sweet sounding piece of gear for the price?
Sonore Rendu? A budget would help...
I don't think I can stomach much over $1000 at this point. Thanks for the suggestion Dave.
Taking the music files out of the equation, what proportional influence would you guys say the main pieces of hardware in a digtal playback chain (player [computer], DAC, amp, headphones) have over the final SQ? How would you rank those components in order of influence?
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Thanks marvey. That looks cool. Is it known to be a sweet sounding piece of gear for the price?
To be honest, you will be compromising some sound quality for functionality and convenience: apple airplay, NAS streamer, etc.; but the Marantz players are not bad sounding. They use the Cirrus chips chips which are kind of laid back sounding - at worst boring, but Marantz implements it right. All the Marantz players - I think they all use the Cirrus chips - have a house sound which is very spacious, warm, lively, and inviting. Few sub $1k DAC / CDPs do space right and Marantz is one of them. Definitely not a nasty digital sound. If anything, maybe a little fuzzy and tubby which tends to get corrected when you go up models; but I'm probably nitpicking (I'm sure you know how much into DACs I am by now.) NA8005 is the newer one and may have had some improvements. Hard to say for sure other than 8005 is more expensive. I heard the NA7004 at a local store from the head-out directly on the unit. I felt it was better than my 5004 in terms of focus and control. Might be great deal to pick up a used or close-out unit.
I figured Rendu would be out of your budget and probably not have all the convenience features you wanted.
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I was listening to the Onkyo DAC-1000 again. Honestly don't know how it compares in the sub $1k category, but I've always thought it was solid sounding, well built, and just easy to live with and whatnot.
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Taking the music files out of the equation, what proportional influence would you guys say the main pieces of hardware in a digtal playback chain (player [computer], DAC, amp, headphones) have over the final SQ? How would you rank those components in order of influence?
If you already have a good DAC and a limit of $1K or so, IMO you'll get much better performance from a music server using local storage than any network streamer, all of which I've experienced to be sonically compromised to varying degrees compared to music servers.
The best bang for your buck would be a DIY Vortexbox server, which works via LMS and your mobile OS of choice, iPad is no problem. You could easily make one with the JCAT USB card for under $1K, and then maybe add something like a TeddyPardo 12V LPS in the future as your budget allows. Running with a LPS, a Vortexbox server can take on $10K commercial servers, as Chris has noted repeatedly over at Computer Audiophile. (The only real difference between the CAPS server and a Vortexbox server is that Vortexbox is free and sounds better than Windows and JRiver).
With Vortexbox server the network is only used for remote control purposes, so actual network performance is pretty much irrelevant. You don't need a flawless wireless N or AC connection to avoid dropouts with high-res files, and Vortex will do native DSD if you're into that.
Obviously your headphones will have a much greater sonic impact than anything else, but the source I think plays just as big of a role as the DAC, and is important to get right. If you use something like one of the new Celeron J based motherboards, the server would use about 10W of power at idle, and maybe 15W peak, so it can be left on continuously. I do that with mine, so I never have to turn it on when I want to listen, it's always ready to go.
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Thanks for all you input gents. I obviously have a lot to learn.
Dave--thanks for all your suggestions. They sound fantastic, but I gotta admit they're a bit over my head right now. I googled some of the stuff you were talking about and got the impression the learning curve needed to put it all together would be a bit steep. Maybe it's easier than it seems... But I did want to ask you more about this:
If you already have a good DAC and a limit of $1K or so, IMO you'll get much better performance from a music server using local storage than any network streamer, all of which I've experienced to be sonically compromised to varying degrees compared to music servers.
I don't have a good DAC unfortunately, but if I went the route of the Marantz marvey mentioned or something similar and played music off an external USB drive plugged directly into the unit, would that avoid some of the sonic compromises? Hardwiring the NAS via ethernet? Or are the compromises found in the architecture of these do-it-all players rather than how the data flows into them? I really appreciate your help.
BTW, this finally came today, along with a $70 Canadian customs charge. That's about a 23% premium on top of the lousy exchange rate. You figure Neil could have worked out a better delivery deal for his fellow Canucks. There aren't that many of us up here. I used to work with his cousin for fuck's sake. Uhg.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag265/hplunket/69061317e3245ed5ac53ee62da1b4ffb_zpsafcb3971.jpg~original)
I don't have a ton of experience listening to gear I can compare it to, but I'll play around with it and give you all my impressions eventually.
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BTW, this finally came today, along with a $70 Canadian customs charge. That's about a 23% premium on top of the lousy exchange rate.
Was that shipped through UPS? I avoid them like the plague now and have had much better luck with FedEx, though Canada customs seems to crack down even harder during the holidays.
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Was that shipped through UPS? I avoid them like the plague now and have had much better luck with FedEx, though Canada customs seems to crack down even harder during the holidays.
Yep. UPS. They're my least favourite service but Pono didn't give me a choice. I don't think I've ever successfully had a "normal" delivery from them. I had to chase this one down as well. I missed the first delivery attempt and after that all tracking info went AWOL. Didn't know where it was and figured eventually I'd have to once again drive the 30 minutes to the depot to pick it up. A phone call did clear things up, though, and they had it to my door about 40 minutes after I hung up. I admit that was a little impressive. What I don't get is that a friend who got a Pono a couple of weeks ago paid $50 in import fees vs. my $70.
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Dave--thanks for all your suggestions. They sound fantastic, but I gotta admit they're a bit over my head right now. I googled some of the stuff you were talking about and got the impression the learning curve needed to put it all together would be a bit steep. Maybe it's easier than it seems... But I did want to ask you more about this:
Honestly if you can use a screwdriver, you can build one of these. You get the board, RAM, a hard drive, and a USB card connect them together, screw them into a case, and you're done. The ASRock Q1900DC-ITX is ideally suited, it's far more powerful than the Atom based board that Chris recommended for his previous CAPS V3 mini design, but just as efficient. You can power it with any standard DC power brick, and then add a linear supply at any point later on. The rub is that you need to have a good USB DAC on hand, although the Schiit Modi could fill that role for very little cost.
Alternatively, you could use the Wyrd in place of a high priced USB card, and get something like an Uber Bifrost instead. Installing Vortexbox 2.3 is MUCH easier than it used to be because it now can be done with a USB thumb drive, and once that's done you just tell it that you want to use whatever USB DAC you have connected, start Logitech Media Server, and then have whatever LMS control app you have on your iPad search for LMS servers.
(http://www.legitreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Q1900DC-ITX.jpg)
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Honestly if you can use a screwdriver, you can build one of these.
DONE! Thanks Dave.
(http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/ag265/hplunket/8cbbe148b8a3a4aabe22cf9ae2788795_zps47fc4614.jpg~original)
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Lol, I do not miss those old school PATA ribbon cables, and master/slave jumpers. Good riddance.
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.
DONE! Thanks Dave.
Thinking inside the box, eh?
Good build. Only comment is: I suggest not taping over the extraction fan.
And that red tape... I want some!
:money:
I do not miss those old school PATA ribbon cables
They didn't have to be ribbons. I still have a groovy-green one that looks more like a cable. Of course, it goes without saying that it also sounded better. It still sounds better. I know it is in the bottom of some box somewhere or other, but the noise floor is so low that I can't hear it at all. :)p4
Oh, and... where's the floppy drive?
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Dave,
Dave,
What do you think about this as a cheap laptop for audio purposes:
http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-X205TA-DH01-11-6-inch-Laptop-Dark/dp/B00OBA5AZU
Checks a lot of boxes:
- Fanless
- Atom Based
- No moving parts
If you search hard enough you can snag one for $100 like I did. Remove all bloat, throw your tunes on a Micro SD, download Fidelizer and it hums through JRiver no problem. Strangely, it sounds a bit better (cleaner) than my loaded i7 laptop (could be placebo, who knows).
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Not bad, but limited storage is obviously the main concern there. It's probably better suited as a network streamer than a server. Too bad there's no eSATA port, that would solve the lack of storage problem without having to go through the USB bus.
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Anybody tried the Marantz NA-11S1 DAC / network player?
It got some good review and has very good measurements from Stereophile: http://www.stereophile.com/content/marantz-reference-na-11s1-network-audio-playerdac
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Anyone heard an Audio Note 2.1/4.1? Sold my Master 7, so left with one DAC at the moment. Am debating between a ML 30.6 and AN Kit for a 2nd setup.
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It's coming...
(http://i.imgur.com/ZdHYDB2h.jpg)
Changstar WORLD EXCLUSIVE REVIEW coming later this week :money:
Short version: if you've got the means to purchase this, top tier headphones or revealing speakers, and loveeeee detail retrieval, this is the DAC for you.
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Sweet! What is the price point?
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$2800 $2300 give or take I believe..
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$ 2300 in Schiit dollars is likely to equal $ 10.000 in high-end brand $ ?
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Pretty sure Mike Moffat has said he's still on track for $2299 MSRP. Beats out the $10-15k DACs I've heard. Probably $20k+ in high end brand.
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Pretty sure Mike Moffat has said he's still on track for $2299 MSRP. Beats out the $10-15k DACs I've heard. Probably $20k+ in high end brand.
Fixed...again. Rag is $1700, Yggy $2300.
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Fixed. Rag is $1800, Yggy $2300.
Actually $1699/2299, or use our special deal for the stack at $3998. Or you can travel back in time to 1979 and buy a Pinto.
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Kingwa's new $3200 DAC: http://www.audio-gd.com/HE/HE-7/HE7EN.htm :-0
He's been into regenerative PS's for a while. He's offering it in some other models too. Kingwa quoted in the M7 thread "Please note the HE series products are upgrade from Master series, even though the price had a big rate increased but the sound quality had not same rate improved."
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Interesting observation going fanless: hard to actually manage noise from having components grounded to a huge fucking metal heatsink. With a super sensitive amp/speakers, it's nosier with a fanless than a build with PWM. Going to take both into work along with my linear power supply and do some measurements to show that Computer Audiophile nuts don't know how to optimize for computer playback. Although I'll prob get shit for using SATA2 drives. "TOO MUCH BANDWIDTH CAUSES PLAYBACK ERRORS!"
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I think they need to worry about getting rid of their shitty Myteks first before addressing anything on the PC side.
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Finally listened to the mytek at work. I just laughed and plugged in my geek out 450 > leckerton and the guy was speechless.
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Kingwa's new $3200 DAC: http://www.audio-gd.com/HE/HE-7/HE7EN.htm (http://www.audio-gd.com/HE/HE-7/HE7EN.htm) :-0
He's been into regenerative PS's for a while. He's offering it in some other models too. Kingwa quoted in the M7 thread "Please note the HE series products are upgrade from Master series, even though the price had a big rate increased but the sound quality had not same rate improved."
Sometimes I really feel like smacking that guy. He's been threatening to kill his PCM1704 based DAC lines for 4 years now, i.e. "My PCM1704 stash is low!" All he's been doing this entire time is getting people to buy his shit by doing the "limited quantities act now" spiel. If he can extend it for year or two, I'd be OK. But it's going on four years now. After a while, it's crying wolf.
If you want a regen PS, buy a something like PS Audio regen box. Heck, Craig (EC) even mentioned that he made a regen that ran at 400Hz AC instead of the 60Hz. (It actually worked for a lot of stuff designed for 60Hz.) The Master 7 doesn't need regen. to get significantly better. It's already got overkill very good PS circuitry. What his TOTL DAC needs is a better USB (c'mon, just trash that VIA crap), better DSP algorithms that don't collapse the soundstage depth, and something better than PCM1704 for A-D conversion. But to put things into perspective and be fair, I still think the Master 7 is a good DAC - easily comparable to the Wadias I've heard.
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Sometimes I really feel like smacking that guy. He's been threatening to kill his PCM1704 based DAC lines for 4 years now, i.e. "My PCM1704 stash is low!" All he's been doing this entire time is getting people to buy his shit by doing the "limited quantities act now" spiel. If he can extend it for year or two, I'd be OK. But it's going on four years now. After a while, it's crying wolf.
Well one explanation could be that they don't do much in terms of TOTL sales and kingwa probably has a substantial stock of NOS PCM1704s - could be anything from 5k to 100k (manufacturers talk about JIT, but the cheaper, more desperate suppliers don't have the expertise to execute JIT), for his PCM1704 products and then one day, they announced the chip was discontinued and he immediately restricted its usage to his TOTL products.
And judging by the price tag, he isn't going to sell his TOTL products to your average consumer in the Chinese market.
As for kingwa's focus on power supplies, I personally think that is probably because what he knows intimately.
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Who's heard any of the Audio Note stuff? I keep looking at their kits and have this fascination with building one! The DAC 4.1 in particular.
Tell me it's terrible and save me some $$.
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Who's heard any of the Audio Note stuff? I keep looking at their kits and have this fascination with building one! The DAC 4.1 in particular.
Tell me it's terrible and save me some $$.
Which Audio Note? Canada or UK/Japan? the kits' I've heard were of the new Canadian knock off brand and were unspectacular. Warm unresolving sort of things. The 'real' AudioNote stuff I've heard which is $$$$ has been more impressive than I originally imagined based on their lack of transparency.
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it's a good question! I'm still trying to figure that one out myself.
Here is the site I've been checking out most recently... http://www.ankaudiokits.com (http://www.ankaudiokits.com) USA? Canada?
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it's a good question! I'm still trying to figure that one out myself.
Here is the site I've been checking out most recently... http://www.ankaudiokits.com (http://www.ankaudiokits.com) USA? Canada?
Yeah, it says ANK cuz they aren't the ones. Donald North knows more about the drama than I do. I originally looked into AudioNote for xformers but after hearing the ANK stuff I crossed them off without hesitation. Found out later they aren't the same Audio Note.
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I think Cooter built a coupe of their DACs... other than that I don't know anyone who'd done one. Since it's a R2R DIY it's interesting... but sounds like it may be a syrup maker?
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If you want an Audio Note taste I suggest you search online for an AN Dac 4. It is one of the original models from the 90's and uses PCM63's. Might be an amazing deal and I was moments from biting the bullet. Instead, decided to go the Spectral route. From everything I read there is a sizeable disparity between the kits and the real deal. Many claim they aren't in the same ballpark and prefer a production 2.1 to a 4.1 kit. No first hand experience though.
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Only interested in building something, I've got a decent production DAC.
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When the hell did the dcs become just "decent"?
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:P
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Looks like the MSB select DAC from a few months ago (was like 60K) is getting a 90K reboot:
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/01/msb-select-dac-new-flagship-converter.html
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Looks like the MSB select DAC from a few months ago (was like 60K) is getting a 90K reboot:
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/01/msb-select-dac-new-flagship-converter.html
I had the chance to listen to the Select DAC in the previous version (the one looking like the IV) under show conditions (but with familiar electronics and speakers, all top notch) and I must admit it sounded very very well. We made an A-B with the Diamond IV and it bettered it in terms of soundstage and air among instruments. This considering the IV is no slouch speaks volumes about the Select.
Only problem is the price. Ridiculously expensive to say the least. If I want to be picky, it also seemed a bit "bigger than life" in its presentation. Or it is just me being picky as I cannot afford the thing.
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FYI Hi Vi 2014 winter best buy ranking:
http://www.stereosound.co.jp/bestbuy/article/2014/12/result/17_2.html
1. exaSound e20mk3, DAC based on ES9018 Sabre32
2. NASPEC MPD-3, AKDesign DAC (http://www.akdesigninc.com/datasheets/DACMod_DataSheet_20140718.pdf)
3. Yukimu Lindemann Musicbook10, Wolfson WM8742 (http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/documents/uploads/data_sheets/en/WM8742.pdf)
The world of DAC is so different across the Pacific...
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Any of you guys ever heard or heard of an Aqua La Scala MkII R2R ladder DAC? It's an Italian company; it's supposed to be quite a good DAC acc. to Srajan Ebaen from 6 Moons.
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acc. to Srajan Ebaen from 6 Moons.
There's your problem. The Aqua DACs are using either rare vintage DACs in one model or PCM1704s. That's fine, but definitely not as interesting as what Schiit and Metrum are up to.
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I just asked if anyone had heard one, is all...
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Dave,
You ever hear the Spectral transport? Good as the Spectral is with the Offramp, I can't but wonder what the spectra link brings to its sibling DAC.
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Dave,
You ever hear the Spectral transport? Good as the Spectral is with the Offramp, I can't but wonder what the spectra link brings to its sibling DAC.
I haven't I'm afraid. To be honest it's been so long since I've listened to any of the ARC, Levinson etc transports that I can't really remember much about them.
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Any of you guys ever heard or heard of an Aqua La Scala MkII R2R ladder DAC? It's an Italian company; it's supposed to be quite a good DAC acc. to Srajan Ebaen from 6 Moons.
I have auditioned the Aqua La Voce DAC in my system for 10 days or so, with the 1704 chipset. Though it is a nice DAC, smooth and well balanced soundwise, I can not say I share Srajan's enthusiasm.
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I have auditioned the Aqua La Voce DAC in my system for 10 days or so, with the 1704 chipset. Though it is a nice DAC, smooth and well balanced soundwise, I can not say I share Srajan's enthusiasm.
I'm also interested in the Aqua. What equipment did you find preferable to it?
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I'm also interested in the Aqua. What equipment did you find preferable to it?
Long story Eric. I get to listen quite a lot of equipment in my place.
It is not a bad DAC, dont get me wrong but it failed to impress me. Yes it is smooth (far from the ΔΣ mid-high harshness, no metallic sound or grain) but it was also a tad light in the bass, a small lack of air in the upper registers and a somewhat passive attitude in all genres of music.
What i usually expect from an R2R DAC is some "drama". A well made ladder usually provides this exquisite sensation of music jumping out of nowhere combined with a unique sense of flow, none of these sensations were evident with the Aqua.
Hope this helps.
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No worries, I don't have a dog in the race. I was just interested in the Aqua. I've had a keen curiosity about the Meitner MA1, MSB Analog and the Aqua. I've sold the Meitner, the MSB & found I preferred both the Spectral SDR-2000 and the Lampizator. It is understandable that our enthusiasms wax and wane, but this usually happens when compared or as a result of hearing something else. I was just curious what that something else was for you.
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Generally speaking, i prefer R2R DACs over ΔΣ and among ΔΣ i prefer BB over AKM while ESS is at the bottom of my list.
That said, it is not just chips and some designers nail the sound while others don't. MSB has a big sound without being harsh, dCS is a bit more laid back (excellent to my ears) while TotalDAC tops my scale in terms of musicality. Still have not managed to listen the Trinity DAC while my experience with Orpheus and the Grandioso is very limited.
All these are quite expensive, on a more down to earth range I like the M2Tech Young 2 (with ext psu) and the latest Grace 920. Among affordable SABRE based ones, the Pioneer U-05 is an excellent vfm (2x9016 in fully balanced config, balanced headphone amp too).
The 2 mid-priced DACs that I would like to own are the Rockna Wavedream and the soon to be announced Merging NADAC (with ARDA DACs). Rockna produces an affordable one (Audiobyte Black Dragon) which I had in house for auditioning and while the receiver is excellent I felt the footprint of the AKM 4396 in the sound during certain (compressed) recordings. The bigger Wavedream also uses FPGA to feed the MSB platinum modules instead of the AKMs and is in my wish list.
As for the NADAC, i trust the guys from Merging really know their stuff and I am very curious to listen when it actually hits the market.
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Good info There is some gear there I haven't heard, but have wanted to (TotalDAC, dCS) and others I haven't heard of. The Trinity was the best I heard period, brief though the listening session was. I'll look into the NADAC and the Merging.
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Merging is the company behind DXD. They do pro ADC-DACs and pushed PCM all the way up to DXD. They are heavily involved in Ravenna67 protocol and use the swiss made ARDA chips (which should be really good). Their equipment is considered top notch for studios so I expect them to do something special for home use.
Estimated price is 7.5K (expect it to be more but not by a lot).
http://nadac.merging.com/
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Feel off asking this but has it become en vogue to hate on delta-sigma DACs? Seems they keep making more and more and people keep snatching them up left and right. I mean thanks to Schiit and Metrum and MHDT etc. R2R seems to be gaining popularity which is great for the options but still...
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What I personally find interesting is that each time I had a chance to stream my music encoded in DSD into DAC, it sounded better than in PCM 'mode'... I kind of got used to combination of Jriver w/ integrated Jplay and DSD encoding in the last year or two. It just universally sounds the best while offering 100% user experience (full DSP support, library management etc.). This applies for both WM8741 and ES9018. I would like Schiit to support DSD because of this (not because I have thousands of ripped SACDs in my collection).
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Feel off asking this but has it become en vogue to hate on delta-sigma DACs? Seems they keep making more and more and people keep snatching them up left and right. I mean thanks to Schiit and Metrum and MHDT etc. R2R seems to be gaining popularity which is great for the options but still...
Don't try to make sense of such predilections, they are about as personal and subjective as one's boxers vs briefs preference.
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I loved the Yggy but I love me some delta sigma as well. My main system at work is a geek pulse + LPS + Klone + UERM right now.
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What I personally find interesting is that each time I had a chance to stream my music encoded in DSD into DAC, it sounded better than in PCM 'mode'... I kind of got used to combination of Jriver w/ integrated Jplay and DSD encoding in the last year or two. It just universally sounds the best while offering 100% user experience (full DSP support, library management etc.). This applies for both WM8741 and ES9018. I would like Schiit to support DSD because of this (not because I have thousands of ripped SACDs in my collection).
Schiit does support DSD with the Loki DSD-only DAC.
I actually like native DSD quite a lot, and in the dozen or so very well-mastered recordings that I have both in 24/192 PCM and DSD, I prefer the DSD versions for virtually of them. I also have the Schiit Loki, which is an amazingly good-sounding DSD-only DAC, and one of the best values in the audio universe at $149. I did a direct comparison of it with an MSB Analog DAC, and of course, while it was not as good as the MSB, it held it's own so well that it very much surprised everyone that heard it in our comparison test. Of the recordings I own in 24/192 or native DSD, I prefer the native DSD recordings.
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I loved the Yggy but I love me some delta sigma as well. My main system at work is a geek pulse + LPS + Klone + UERM right now.
I don't know if you've heard the Wavelength Crimson USB DAC with silver transformers, or the Bricasti M1, but both of those are exceptionally good-sounding DACs, delta-sigma or no...
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I don't know if you've heard the Wavelength Crimson USB DAC with silver transformers, or the Bricasti M1, but both of those are exceptionally good-sounding DACs, delta-sigma or no...
Bricasti M1 is perhaps the best delta sigma DAC I've heard except it has two fatal flaws for me. One, the overall sonic signature has a somewhat disjointed character and two, the delta sigma hash is definitely present and noticeable.
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Bricasti M1 is perhaps the best delta sigma DAC I've heard except it has two fatal flaws for me. One, the overall sonic signature has a somewhat disjointed character and two, the delta sigma hash is definitely present and noticeable.
Anax,
Thanks for the informative reply. Regarding the delta-sigma hash, I'm curious if this could be attenutated using a Shunyata Zitron Alpha Digital power cable. I've personally found Shunyata cables to remove a lot of RF/EMI hash from my system, and the Alpha series of digital-specific power cords are supposed to be exceptional in this regard. In other words, I'm wondering if this hash is a result of the gigahertz frequency class of noise that plagues many DACs. This high-bandwidth noise is, in fact, what led Caelin Cabriel to design this specific class of power cords.
It would certainly be an interesting experiment to try.
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Anax,
I've personally found Shunyata cables to remove a lot of RF/EMI hash from my system
Huh, I didn't know you had an oscilloscope. In my vast investigation of environmental RF pollution and how it relates to ad copy, I've found that a greater attenuation of the critical gigahertz region may be achieved by not only covering my head with a silver-coated resonance control cephalic veil but also by running a properly grounded ten gauge powercord down my esophagus, through my intestinal tract and out the other side prior to plugging it into the DAC. While burdensome I think that there would be a special benefit in attempting such an approach on a Shinyata cord.
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Huh, I didn't know you had an oscilloscope. In my vast investigation of environmental RF pollution and how it relates to ad copy, I've found that a greater attenuation of the critical gigahertz region may be achieved by not only covering my head with a silver-coated resonance control cephalic veil but also by running a properly grounded ten gauge powercord down my esophagus, through my intestinal tract and out the other side prior to plugging it into the DAC. While burdensome I think that there would be a special benefit in attempting such an approach on a Shinyata cord.
I do have an oscilloscope, actually.
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I'd be intersested in seeing pictures of the cable's effects through an oscilloscope. I don't have access to one myself.
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I'd be intersested in seeing pictures of the cable's effects through an oscilloscope. I don't have access to one myself.
You can find the pictures at the Shunyata web site. I don't have an Zitron Alpha Digital cord (yet), but the Shunyata site has data for viewing.
They have a copyright on their images, so rather than me posting them here, you can go to this link to see them. Just click the "Features" tab to see the data.
http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/power-cables-footer/84-alpha-pwr-cables/305-cobra-digital-2#!alphadigital_ACSerial (http://www.shunyata.com/index.php/power-cables-footer/84-alpha-pwr-cables/305-cobra-digital-2#!alphadigital_ACSerial)
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I do have an oscilloscope, actually. But I don't need an oscilloscope to hear the amount of hash and grunge that's removed using my Shunyata power cables.
That is certainly true, all you need is the complete infalibility of human perception and confidence in the speculative extrapolations of the effects of electromagnetic compatibility put forth by boutique cable makers coupled with a lack of confidence in the engineers responsible for the design and manufacture of your DAC. I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree in that respect.
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I'd be intersested in seeing pictures of the cable's effects through an oscilloscope. I don't have access to one myself.
Hifi news & record review routinely posts various cable roundups accompanied by the eye graphs and other measurements. If impedance matching and such is your thing then it is a treasure trove of purportedly vital data.
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Anax,
Thanks for the informative reply. Regarding the delta-sigma hash, I'm curious if this could be attenutated using a Shunyata Zitron Alpha Digital power cable. I've personally found Shunyata cables to remove a lot of RF/EMI hash from my system, and the Alpha series of digital-specific power cords are supposed to be exceptional in this regard. In other words, I'm wondering if this hash is a result of the gigahertz frequency class of noise that plagues many DACs. This high-bandwidth noise is, in fact, what led Caelin Cabriel to design this specific class of power cords.
It would certainly be an interesting experiment to try.
Anax's observation is consistent with mine and has nothing to do with the power cable. The "delta-sigma hash" characterization of the Bricasti is part of the AD1955 chip's sound - most easily heard on high end DACs that use that chip. The AD1955 has a very obvious delta-sigma sound - hard to explain - because it's NOT annoying (NFB-7.32), robotic vox-like (Vega), ear-bleeding (Mytek), thin (PSA DSD). It's just very obviously delta-sigma. But NOT annoying, robotic vox-like, ear-bleeding, thin, etc. But it's just very obviously delta-sigma like. It's a seeming contradiction. It's just the way most AD1955 DACs sound like. The only exception may be the Lavry DA11 which is fairly smooth. The DA11 is not a high-end DAC, so you also don't hear the full potential of the AD1955.
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What I personally find interesting is that each time I had a chance to stream my music encoded in DSD into DAC, it sounded better than in PCM 'mode'... I kind of got used to combination of Jriver w/ integrated Jplay and DSD encoding in the last year or two. It just universally sounds the best while offering 100% user experience (full DSP support, library management etc.). This applies for both WM8741 and ES9018. I would like Schiit to support DSD because of this (not because I have thousands of ripped SACDs in my collection).
From experience, feeding the Sabre DAC with DSD (JRiver conversion) instead of PCM resulted in slightly better sonics most, but not all of the time. The Wolfson and Sabre chips will take DSD directly. The Yggy DAC chips are multi-bit (whether it's ladder architecture, resistor string, or whatever is unknown). Those kind of chips don't take DSD.
In any event it won't matter. A PCM (or DSD to PCM) stream fed into the Yggy sounds 10x better than the best Wolfson and Sabre DSD capable DACs that I have heard, even if converting PCM to DSD in real time. No need to worry about something that doesn't need to be worried about.
If you want a Schiit DSD DAC, get the Loki. I use the Loki by converting everything that is not DSD to DSD in Jriver. But using a Loki now is stupid because the Modi Uber sounds better than the Loki, even when I convert DSD to PCM.
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Anax's observation is consistent with mine and has nothing to do with the power cable. The "delta-sigma hash" characterization of the Bricasti is part of the AD1955 chip's sound - most easily heard on high end DACs that use that chip. The AD1955 has a very obvious delta-sigma sound - hard to explain - because it's NOT annoying (NFB-7.32), robotic vox-like (Vega), ear-bleeding (Mytek), thin (PSA DSD). It's just very obviously delta-sigma. But NOT annoying, robotic vox-like, ear-bleeding, thin, etc. But it's just very obviously delta-sigma like. It's a seeming contradiction. It's just the way most AD1955 DACs sound like. The only exception may be the Lavry DA11 which is fairly smooth. The DA11 is not a high-end DAC, so you also don't hear the full potential of the AD1955.
Interesting, Marv. If we ever meet up at a CanJam (THE SHOW, perhaps?), would appreciate getting a demo from you on what that sounds like compared to say, a ladder or R2R DAC by listening to and comparing some DACs.
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Huh, I didn't know you had an oscilloscope. In my vast investigation of environmental RF pollution and how it relates to ad copy, I've found that a greater attenuation of the critical gigahertz region may be achieved by not only covering my head with a silver-coated resonance control cephalic veil but also by running a properly grounded ten gauge powercord down my esophagus, through my intestinal tract and out the other side prior to plugging it into the DAC. While burdensome I think that there would be a special benefit in attempting such an approach on a Shinyata cord.
I head to look up the word "cephalic", that word should definitely be used more often.
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It's a good one. Aren't some Sennheisers said to have a cephalic veil? :)p13
I'd be intersested in seeing pictures of the cable's effects through an oscilloscope
Given the choice, I think I'd rather see a CAT scan of anetode's method. It would be more entertaining. Mind you, I'm not volunteering! :)p8
As a relative novice (also an unrelated novice), I would love to get Marvey on Sabre: The Unabridged Version, but I get the feeling that he feels he has said it all, and if I want to know, perhaps I'd better go search. I do get it that it is tedious to be asked to repeat oneself too many times. But if there is a handy link, that would be great ;D
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A friend dropped by with a DIY DAC based on the AD 1865 with a couple of shunt regulated power supplies and a JL sounds receiver. I had almost forgot how good this chip sounds. This DIY thingy literally trashes in terms of natural sound several commercial DACs with their ΔΣ fancy on paper DACs.
Sorry for sounding so nasty, but the sense of flow and ease of reproduction, the faithful timbre and lack of grain is all there.
I would post a couple of pics but for some reason the option does not pop up.
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Any available information on this DIY DAC elsewhere in the intertubes?
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This one is 100% home-brewed, even the boards are house printed. Packs 5 shunt regulated power supplies, 150VA toroid and the JL sounds receiver based on XMOS. Opamps for the output.
Last week I had the Audiobyte Black Dragon and though it is a very capable DAC with an amazing receiver (FPGA) the overall sound was still a bit harsh and metallic (tnx to the AKM 4396 I presume). The DIY AD1865 is on whole different level in terms of musicality
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Last week I had the Audiobyte Black Dragon and though it is a very capable DAC with an amazing receiver (FPGA) the overall sound was still a bit harsh and metallic (tnx to the AKM 4396 I presume).
Exactly my thoughts on the Black Dragon: harsh and metallic
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That is certainly true, all you need is the complete infalibility of human perception and confidence in the speculative extrapolations of the effects of electromagnetic compatibility put forth by boutique cable makers coupled with a lack of confidence in the engineers responsible for the design and manufacture of your DAC. I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree in that respect.
How can you disrespect the company who charges $999 for this:
http://www.hifishock.org/galleries/cable-accessories/ac-power-distributor-and-filter/shunyata-research/hydra-6-1b-shunyata-research.jpg
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How can you disrespect the company who charges $999 for this:
http://www.hifishock.org/galleries/cable-accessories/ac-power-distributor-and-filter/shunyata-research/hydra-6-1b-shunyata-research.jpg
OMG look inside what a POS!
Guts Looks like something you make in high school shop :p
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Hey, to be fair, those are some premium zip ties they've got there.
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Anyone one have experience with motu interfaces? Im thinking of upgrading/updating my echo audiofire 2 finally with something with more outputs and inputs next month or so and I been finding some great deals locally to me on motu gear. I been specifically keeping an eye on a motu traveler mk1 interface for awhile now, which is basically same as a 828mk1. Motu doesn't give out info on type of converters/chips they use though, but, it's labeled as 192khz/24-bit. I know reading online on pro forums there is mixed things on them and, kinda hard since lot people are brand loyal. Any thoughts?
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Hello people,
I hope my question is posted in the correct forum.
I have been doing some silent reading in this forum and this topic of vintage DACs with ladder chips are interesting me. Is anyone familiar with the Parasound 1100HD? I think I have a chance to buy one but the problem is it has been modified, I'm not sure about the technical details but its analogue stage has been replaced with a discrete part.
The DAC is also almost 20 years old so are there going to be problem with endurance?
If it helps, IIRC this is the original sales ad: http://www.head-fi.org/t/548272/fs-modded-parasound-dac-1100-hd
As always I thank you people for your kind advice.
Regards,
Jeremiah
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Are Oppo dacs typically bright? I've had this HA-1 on loan for a couple days and I feel like stabbing my ears out. The amp leans north of neutral as well. Stack all that on top of an HE-6, well...
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Are Oppo dacs typically bright? I've had this HA-1 on loan for a couple days and I feel like stabbing my ears out. The amp leans north of neutral as well. Stack all that on top of an HE-6, well...
My feeling was they were designed and tuned around the PM1/PM2 if that's helpful. I don't think its signature is an accident.
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I can see that actually... all that extra edgy grating "definition" would certainly liven up the PM-1 and make it feel more "reference" level (granted I actually liked the PM-1).
I've heard on more than one occasion that the HA-1 is a good pairing with an LCD2.
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I've heard on more than one occasion that the HA-1 is a good pairing with an LCD2.
Which one? :-\
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Haha, good point. Personally I have yet to hear the same sound from LCD2's even within the same revision. Not as bad as the K550 or DT1350 variants, but still...
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Long story Eric. I get to listen quite a lot of equipment in my place.
It is not a bad DAC, dont get me wrong but it failed to impress me. Yes it is smooth (far from the ΔΣ mid-high harshness, no metallic sound or grain) but it was also a tad light in the bass, a small lack of air in the upper registers and a somewhat passive attitude in all genres of music.
What i usually expect from an R2R DAC is some "drama". A well made ladder usually provides this exquisite sensation of music jumping out of nowhere combined with a unique sense of flow, none of these sensations were evident with the Aqua.
Hope this helps.
The LaScala is the AQUA homerun, a great musical DAC.
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Ok, so I've got a rudimentary idea of how a dac chip works. I've got a rudimentary idea of how FPGA's work. I can even grok using a FPGA to do some of the processing voodoo before feeding data into a dac...
But some of these newfangled dacs are using the FPGA as the dac itself? (one example: http://www.audiophilia.com/wp/?p=13620) So... like a software version of all the magic that happens in dac chip hardware? Wouldn't it still need to pump whatever output through some sort of external low pass filter?
Um, can this possibly be explained in layman's terms to a guy who isn't a programmer?
(I am ok if the answer is "this requires far more edumacating and pixie dust than you currently possess")
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I can see that actually... all that extra edgy grating "definition" would certainly liven up the PM-1 and make it feel more "reference" level (granted I actually liked the PM-1).
I've heard on more than one occasion that the HA-1 is a good pairing with an LCD2.
The ha-1 uses a sabre chip, so treble issues are kinda expected.
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As mentioned in the article, the FPGA's output is unfiltered and include a lot of HF or UHF crap which is filtered by a passive analog low pass filter. All the math for D/A conversion is done within the FPGA.
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Um, can this possibly be explained in layman's terms to a guy who isn't a programmer?
I am definitely not a programmer..Still:
FPGAs are actually chips that can be programmed to perform various tasks (such as Digital to Analog conversion). To make it simple think of them as a white canvas where a programmer can tell what kind of operation he wants the integrated circuit to perform (there are many interlocked programmable blocks so in theory the sky is the limit)
You will be seeing more and more dacs without classic DAC chips in the future because FPGA offers a major advantage in the fact that it can be re-written from scratch with a simple firmware upgrade. The programmer writes a code that tells the FPGA to use a special filter (lets say minimum phase) then buffer the signal, reclock it using a femto master clock and finally transform it in analog signal for the amplifier to use. (this is not software but software controlled hardware) After a month he rewrites part of the controlling code and adds another filter/ DSD capability/ etc. In a classic DAC a firmware upgrade cannot do all those things as the hardware is permanent and not control by software therefor not easily upgradable.
So a "simple" PSAudio or Chord firmware upgrade could make such a sonic difference that you would believe to have a brand new dac.
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So... could I say in a generalized sense that an fpga is to dac chips as discrete is to opamps?
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Well, not exactly. FPGA is always a chip, but it can be software programmed> arranged to do whatever the designer wants. In the end it can be made to do typical D>A conversion (just like a classic DAC chip from say ESS or AKM). The difference lies in the fact that it can perform additional functions (like implementation of digital filters and FIFO buffering in our case) which are always software controlled therefor with a simple firmware upgrade it can radically evolve (adding new features). Each designer uses some readily available libraries (basic code chunks) and then adapts/ writes his own to get what he reputes as best possible way for D>A conversion.
Typical DAC chips on the other hand leave little room for "creativity" to designers and once bought are "static" (no major evolution through firmwares)
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I guess I'm just thinking that a dac chip is purpose built to do just that one thing. It's not customizable, but all of its parts are optimized (in theory) for that purpose.
An FPGA is a generic device that can do many things, so while it can be programmed to be flexible, can it be "better" than a dac chip?
(this is sort of how I drew the comparison between discreet vs opamps)
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Now you are talking Armaegis. The thing here is that depending on how you software remodel the FPGA it can be better (or worst) than a ready made DAC. The language is not so easy to write (even if companies like Spartan and Altera offer general libraries) but specs wise the chips are powerful (several qualities in term of specs exist from both companies).
The main advantage is the ability to remodel through firmware your entire modus operandi and if you speak with PSAudio DAC owner they will tell you that from one upgrade to the other there are major changes to the sound, like having an all new machine in hand
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I wonder if perhaps there will be a middle ground someday, with FPGA chips optimized specifically for audio use (or whether that makes sense).
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Judging by the results from PSaudio and Chord I would say that the existing crop of FPGAs are already 100% suitable for audio purposes.
Several audio companies are looking towards that direction while others use FPGAs for the receiver part (FIFO buffering, reclocking, filters) with excellent results.
If Xilinx and Altera provide better libraries for audio conversion I would not be surprised if half of the commercial DACs would rely 100% on FPGA for the conversion part too (which is a rather big market)
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Pfft, if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing :)
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Pfft, if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing :)
In racing, overdoing is underdoing. Just a thought. :P
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Um... was that a car/F1 reference that I totally didn't get? :-Z
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Um... was that a car/F1 reference that I totally didn't get? :-Z
Yes. ;)
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I'm fairly new to this hobby, so I need some advice. I'm looking for a new DAC (desktop)... Of course there are a plethora of choices. I've learned that I won't like DS, (thanks Purrin), so that has helped narrow my choices down. I'm definitely very interested in acquiring a Yggy, but being my first separate DAC, I'm looking to purchase something a bit less cost wise, more so that I can have a point of reference. I'd prefer something warm, I don't care for harsh treble at all, like most. I love bass, so I prefer something with some punch too.
I'm looking at a few cost effective options, like Arcam irDac, Emotiva, Pagoda, etc. I won't lie, I am considering Hugo due to it being transportable, just very leary that I will waste $2k.
I will be using it Fostex Th900 and AK240 as a source. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Maybe Gungnir and wait for trickle down Yggy tech? Should be possible with modular boards.
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Definitely a possibility, just not sure how long that wait will be. I need my fix!!! ;)
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Gungnir should fulfill what you want for the time being (not harsh, good tone...maybe slightly warmish, good punch, etc.). My guess is it will be worth the wait if and when the Yggy tech trickles down to it. You'll get something good now without spending too much or taking up too much space, and then you'll get more goodness down the road...just not sure at what price the upgrade might be. (Just pulling stuff out of my ass here.)
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OK, thanks bro. I'll definitely consider that.
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Hi folks.
I'm a long-time lurker but this is only my third post. I apologize if this question's been asked before but here goes.
My current system is as follows - Mac mini > JRMC 19 > ODAC > Project Ember Mk2 > Sennheiser HD 650.
Since getting the Ember I'm concerned that my ODAC might be a bottle-neck so I'm looking for opinions on whether it's worth upgrading. The problem is I don't have much money. I've been advised elsewhere that stepping up to a Schiit Modi 2 Uber will bring some improvement and it's right on the money limit.
What do you folks think? Should I go for it or should I wait & save up some more for something better?
Many thanks for taking the time to read this post.
Regards,
Gordon.
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Hi folks.
I'm a long-time lurker but this is only my third post. I apologize if this question's been asked before but here goes.
My current system is as follows - Mac mini > JRMC 19 > ODAC > Project Ember Mk2 > Sennheiser HD 650.
Since getting the Ember I'm concerned that my ODAC might be a bottle-neck so I'm looking for opinions on whether it's worth upgrading. The problem is I don't have much money. I've been advised elsewhere that stepping up to a Schiit Modi 2 Uber will bring some improvement and it's right on the money limit.
What do you folks think? Should I go for it or should I wait & save up some more for something better?
Many thanks for taking the time to read this post.
Regards,
Gordon.
I'd agree that the ODAC is the bottleneck. Three quick recommendations would be the Modi 2 Uber, an AMB Labs Gamma 2, or a Geek Out 450. All of these are in the sub-$250 range; all of them are fantastic DACs.
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I'd agree that the ODAC is the bottleneck. Three quick recommendations would be the Modi 2 Uber, an AMB Labs Gamma 2, or a Geek Out 450. All of these are in the sub-$250 range; all of them are fantastic DACs.
Thanks for the quick reply Austin. I've heard good things about the Geek Out 450 in other places but I'm not convinced by it's form factor, plus it has an amp built-in which I don't need.
The AMB Labs Gamma 2 sounds good but it's DIY & I have some problems with my hands so unless someone sells them pre-built I'd have to rule it out unfortunately.
That leaves the Schiit. Is it really as good as they say? I like the price & I like the form factor too.
One more thing if you don't mind - I've been offered an MF V-DAC II for £50. The price is definitely right but would you think it's an upgrade from the ODAC or more of a side-step?
Sorry for all the questions but my knowledge of DAC's is so limited as opposed to headphones & amps.
Regards,
Gordon.
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Thanks for the quick reply Austin. I've heard good things about the Geek Out 450 in other places but I'm not convinced by it's form factor, plus it has an amp built-in which I don't need.
The AMB Labs Gamma 2 sounds good but it's DIY & I have some problems with my hands so unless someone sells them pre-built I'd have to rule it out unfortunately.
That leaves the Schiit. Is it really as good as they say? I like the price & I like the form factor too.
One more thing if you don't mind - I've been offered an MF V-DAC II for £50. The price is definitely right but would you think it's an upgrade from the ODAC or more of a side-step?
Questions are a good thing Gordon!
1. Re: the MF V-DAC II, IMO it's a side grade (if not slightly worse in some respects). I just might not be a fan of (most, some custom ones are fantastic) PCM1792-based DACs.
2. Re: the GO's form factor - I could see not wanting it for that if you're looking for a desktop DAC. (Moreover, it runs hot.) That being said, its 47ohm output is designed to operate as a line out. A number of pyrates - myself included - use it connected to a Leckerton UHA.6S MKII for our portable reference setups. If you're a fan of the ODAC's general sound, but would like something that's a direct sonic upgrade, the GO is probably where it's at. The GO v2 is going to be launched soon, should LH meet it's shipping deadline, but it's currently sold out until shipment 23 (which IRRC won't ship until October/November). Because the v2 is coming out though, the GO450 can be purchased really cheap right now.
3. Re: The Gamma2 - MisterX (Marshall Wyant) makes them prebuilt and can be contacted through the AMB website. His prebuilt units cost 320-330 USD, but I might know a guy who knows a guy who would consider parting with his MisterX-built unit for much less. :)p8 If you decide you're interested in one, just send me a PM and I can try to arrange something. With shipping and whatnot, it would probably come out to being more expensive than the Schiit though.
4. Re: The Modi 2 Uber - Yes, it is an excellent DAC all around. I don't think it has a lot in common with ODAC in terms of it's overall character. Depending on your tastes, or what you're trying to achieve with your system, that could be a good thing! It's a warmer DAC than the ODAC. They aren't kidding when they say it's more or less a "mini-Bifrost". If you look for reviews on the web, you'll see a lot of people complaining about the "build quality" based on the button design. Fuck those people. The Modi 2 Uber is built tough as Schiit and the tiny bit of button rattle is inconsequential.
Extra: One last thing that you might want to consider is getting a Schiit Wyrd and giving it a demo. The Wyrd has a huge impact on entry-level USB powered DACs and the ODAC is extremely sensitive to the quality of the USB power that it's being fed. It could help your ODAC out enough that buying a new DAC immediately might not be as necessary.
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Would it be fair to say that a Modi 2 (non Uber) + Wyrd would be equivalent, sound quality wise, to the Mode 2 Uber without Wyrd (not comparing the number of inputs)? Or maybe actually better since Modi 2 (non Uber) + Wyrd reclocking might put it ahead of Modi 2 Uber sans Wyrd?
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Would it be fair to say that a Modi 2 (non Uber) + Wyrd would be equivalent, sound quality wise, to the Mode 2 Uber without Wyrd (not comparing the number of inputs)? Or maybe actually better since Modi 2 (non Uber) + Wyrd reclocking might put it ahead of Modi 2 Uber sans Wyrd?
I really want to answer that - but I actually can't. I make it a policy not to comment on gear I haven't heard, and I've only heard the Modi 2 Uber :( I don't want to make a direct assumption here re: the sound difference between the Modi 2 and Modi 2 Uber because Schiit improved on the analog output stage for the Uber and that makes a difference. Sometimes a world of difference.
I can say this though: to my ears the Modi 2 Uber seemed to benefit from the Wyrd. It tightened/focused it up a bit. On DACs that are already analytical sounding, that tightening up can make them the sound a bit lean. I've seen Anax (and I think Marv too) call it the "Turbo Clock Effect." I have no reason to believe that it wouldn't be beneficial to the non-Uber too.
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I think I'm going to save some pennies & go for a Modi 2 Uber. I can't afford it right now, so soon after springing for the Ember. Thanks for all the input folks. It really is much appreciated.
Gordon.
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Gordon,
I have been very pleased with my Modi2 Uber with my Ember. How much does the Modi2 Uber cost where you live? Are you able to buy it from a dealer or do you have to have it shipped from the USA?
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How much does the Modi2 Uber cost where you live? Are you able to buy it from a dealer or do you have to have it shipped from the USA?
I can get it for £130 from here..
http://www.electromod.co.uk/schiit-audio/dac/modi-2-uber/
It's not a huge amount of money but things are just a bit tight right now so I'll wait possibly for Christmas. As I say, I like what I'm hearing right now so there's no rush.
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The ODAC is not the most popular box around here, but hey, I've got one too :)
I do feel though that I would not buy (except of course for portable use) another USB-powered DAC. It's fine to say there's another box to solve any USB power problems, but I'd rather not have to buy another box.
So, If I was putting my foot on the Schiit ladder, which I may well do, it would have to be at the Modi 2 Uber rung.
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The trouble I find is that without having a second DAC to directly compare my ODAC to it's very difficult to imagine what could be improved. As I say, there's nothing particularly jumping out at me that's wrong with my current setup. I do feel perhaps that the sound is still a bit edgy, even when I use a tube noted to have a smooth character but without a direct AB comparison it's very difficult to judge.
Would I be correct in saying that Sabre DAC's are generally known for being high on detail & low on subtlety? If so, who makes the kind of DAC I'm looking for? Burr-Brown or maybe Wolfson? It would be nice if Wolfson was the logical choice, being a Scottish company & all.
edit - I see Cambridge Audio make a model called the Dacmagic 100. It uses a wolfson DAC. Has anyone got any experience of that model?
http://www.cambridgeaudio.com/products/hifi-and-home-cinema/dacmagic-100
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The trouble I find is that without having a second DAC to directly compare my ODAC to it's very difficult to imagine what could be improved.
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I feel the same. Perhaps you, like me, have never had the opportunity to listen to lots of DACs and make the comparisons. I can say that it has shown up well in comparison with two or three other DACs, including supposedly-more-"musical" audiophile stuff, Even the owner of that particular stuff liked it, and said that, at the price, he would be content with one.
Perhaps our biggest problem is that audiophile feeling that, "at the price," we didn't spend enough?
The ODAC came within my experimental budget. That doesn't stretch to , say, a Gungnir, but it could stretch to, say, a Modi 2 Uber, but not this year.
My feeling is that has to be worth a try. I don't think we'd find much problem in passing on a Modi if we didn't feel it was worth it. And if we do... there are ODAC buyers out there too!
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If you're curious about the Wolfson chips, try finding a pre-built AMB Gamma2.
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there are ODAC buyers out there too!
There are? I've been trying to find one over a month to take a pristine ODAC off my hands for $85.
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There are? I've been trying to find one over a month to take a pristine ODAC off my hands for $85.
Why didn't you tell me!
Oh, wait... I've already got one.
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Nice way to invite trouble Nick
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I really don't mind my ODAC. That doesn't mean I'm not for trying something else.
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I know the DirectStream is not the most liked DAC around here. But I think my son likes it.
https://www.facebook.com/chaiwat.kositkhun/videos/10153332830102938/?l=5955538137874944017
Same sense of rhythm as his dad, it seems.
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If you son likes the DirecStream, then it's good.
The Nordost cable seems more outragous to me though.
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If you son likes the DirecStream, then it's good.
The Nordost cable seems more outragous to me though.
To be fair - and to clarify that i'm not too much into canles - The Nordost in this system are mainly power cables. Speaker cables are BJC and the interconnect to the power amp is a custom job cos Old Naim gear use some crazy wiring schemes. IMO they do make a slight difference but then again i'm only using their blue heaven stuff I get from ebay (all nib or from a seller i'm familiar with) so i'm not paying crazy ampunts for them. But yeah, to my ears gungnir < pwdII < DS.
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Hi Folks:
Short time lurker who has found reading this site to be truly beneficial. I hope to be able to contribute sometime in the future.
My virgin post is a question on a lower end usb dac to pair with my Linux box and Lake People G109 and Mad Dogs. It is a bedside system that is doing fairly well with a HRT Music streamer II+ and Schiit Wyrd. I feel the sound could be a little more forthcoming in the mids and lower treble and think perhaps a dac change could do this.
Austin's comments on the Modi 2 Uber to another person have piqued my interest in that as a possible tonal change - sidegrade- upgrade? and would like to hear other ideas and opinions if you would be so kind.
cheers
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Hi Guys,
Is it stupid to even consider an R2R dac like the gda600 or a theta gen 3 or 5, for iem listening?
I don't have for the time being a nice DAC... was considering getting the GO450 but not easy to get one in europe at a decent price compared to what it costs as new in the US. Was also lurking around R2R Dac's (again not for the same purpose but out of curiosity and what Purrin has been writing on them... =)
Thanks!
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Recently got to hear few DAC+amps :
Audeze Deckard + LCD2 Fazor - Overly bassy, thick notes, treble even grainier than the old LCD2. Mid range ain't as dark but still artificial. The Deckard appears to be quite low on resolution
Geek Out 450 + LCD X - The LCD X is certainly more linear, refined and spacious than the LCD2. However the mids sound a bit painful and uneven. The Geek out is impressive given its compact size and USB only power. Clean blackground and was able to drive the LCD X with acceptable authority and is quite a bit more resolving than the Deckard. However, it has metallic feel to the treble and is digital sounding with brittle/glossy edges to the notes.
Geek Out 450 + LCD3 fazor - The LCD3 was unbelievably a dud mess of warm sound. Gone is the sub bass, all you hear is mid bass, dull mids and no treble. Even though its warmer than other LCDs ,it isnt as thick sounding. Maybe a little bit more resolute than the 2 and X ,but for $2k its a waste of money.
All the audezes do not have accuracy in the mids at all. Male vocals sound overly strong while female vocals sound thick. Very artificial sound. Although the LCD 2 R1 wasn't any great but with the fazors audeze seems to have gone backwards
Geek Out 450 + HD800 - Poor combination. Avoid at all cost. HD800 proved to be too difficult a load for the GO450. Thin, flat, sibilant sound all over. HD800 with EHHA Rev A was a much much better experience.
Chord Hugo + HD800 with AK240 as digital source - Wow! what a disgrace to the HD800. The Hugo has a really strange sound. As if a detail filter was applied. Major sounds can be heard but all the little details are totally absent. For the same reason it sounds extremely 2D. Zero layering, depth and flat dynamics. The grain and hardness is not immediately apparent but mids onwards the Hugo definitely lacks lots of refinement. And for $2k it has no right to stay in the market. What a BS product!
This was only the second time i heard the HD800 and even tough with the Hugo one can easily tell that this headphone has some of the fastest upper treble.
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Hi Guys,
Is it stupid to even consider an R2R dac like the gda600 or a theta gen 3 or 5, for iem listening?
Why not ? Just be careful with your amp. The Theta are outputing a signal higher than the usual 2V. So you absolutely need to make sure the gain won't be too high for your iems.
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Recently got to hear few DAC+amps :
Chord Hugo + HD800 with AK240 as digital source - Wow! what a disgrace to the HD800. The Hugo has a really strange sound. As if a detail filter was applied. Major sounds can be heard but all the little details are totally absent. For the same reason it sounds extremely 2D. Zero layering, depth and flat dynamics. The grain and hardness is not immediately apparent but mids onwards the Hugo definitely lacks lots of refinement. And for $2k it has no right to stay in the market. What a BS product!
This was only the second time i heard the HD800 and even tough with the Hugo one can easily tell that this headphone has some of the fastest upper treble.
Woah bro! You gonna make ahgooh and the rest of the chord hypertrain at headfi very angry with you. How can you criticise the mastery of Robert Watts gizillion tap filtering.
But I like your opinion :)
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The techno-babble on Hugo would be more believable if it actually translated into sonic results. Wide stage with no depth, treble grain, thin, and lifeless.
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I would like to see a reasonable explanation of what this WTA filter actually is. > 1 MHz sampling, 26k taps is not going to cut it for me. Most anyother filter can be 26k taps long with 99.9% of the taps being close to zero, or severly oversampled and taking care of the ultrasonic audioband, or both.
Furthermore, I've seen conflicting stories of what the WTA filter stuffs does and/or behaves:
Here it rolls of the treble, measures like crap, and has multiple settings which suggest there is not one WTA filter but many:
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/cd-dvd-blu-ray/62-cd-reviews/642-audiolab-q-dac-filters-.html
Here a DAC with WTA awesomeness doesn't seem to roll the treble but the jitter is all over the map (dunno if related or unrelated to the WTA implementation or some mishapen):
http://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-dac64-da-processor-measurements
... Obviously I can't make heads or tails of what Chord's not-so-awesome sauce is.
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Hugo and Dave don't use any kind of DAC chip, the analogue conversion is discrete using pulse array. The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too. Indeed, I have posted before about Hugo's small signal performance - once you get to below -20 dBFS distortion disappears - no enharmonic, no harmonic distortion, and no noise floor modulation as the signal gets smaller. With Dave, it has even more remarkable performance - a noise floor that is measured at -180dB and is completely unchanged from 2.5v RMS output to no signal at all. And the benefit of an analogue character? Much smoother and more natural sound quality, with much better instrument separation and focus. Of course, some people like the sound of digital hardness - the aggression gets superficially confused with detail resolution - but it quickly tires with listening fatigue, and poor timbre variation, as all instruments sound hard, etched and up front. But if you like that sound, then fine, but its not for me.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766517/chord-electronics-dave/105#post_11698221
Rob Watt claims that his dac's pulse array tech is so special, but it's nothing more than Pulse Width Modulation(another form of sigma delta noise shaping).
Let's see what TI engineers says about PWM tech:
The PWM/DAC approach is not new, but performance limitations have historically confined its
use to low-resolution, low-bandwidth applications. The performance of the method relates
directly to the ability of the low-pass filter to remove the high-frequency components of the PWM
signal. Use a filter with too low a cut-off frequency, and DAC bandwidth suffers. Use a filter with
too high a cut-off frequency or with slow stop-band rolloff, and DAC resolution suffers.
source: page 5 of this document
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/spraa88a/spraa88a.pdf
Higher Order Low-Pass Filters
Higher order filters offer progressively better stop-band rolloff rates, and hence remove more of
the unwanted ripple in equation (6). However, design complexities associated with thermal drift
and component value variation increase with filter order. Cost and board space consumption
also increases. At some point, an actual DAC chip becomes a better solution.
source: page 10 of the above pdf
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Too many issues with those write ups IMO. If anything, the link at HF leaves me with the impression that the dude does not know what he is talking about and with less confidence on the magical properties of WTA.
Noise in most cases is dependent on input signal statistics and solution architecture, proly much more than input signal amplitude. So I have no idea what this WTA does.
It seems the WTA is not half-band filter based. Can't be a sinc either because that is non-apodizing and it seems WTA is apodizing (A sinc sampled at Nyquist and using a rectangular window yields a half-band if I remember correctly). So that leaves us with a lot of random filters.
As far as ASIC vs DSP/FPGA implementations, there are plenty of trade-offs.
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It seems that rob watts is designing his filters by hearing with his own ears first over designing based on audio engineering/mathematics/known principles of audio. Don't know if this is best approach but his headfi posts sounds like alot of hyperbole to me, especially on his pulse array topic.
But at the end of the day, the Question to ask is does his dac sound good? I think It's quite a mixed impressions.
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Hi guys... and girls! thanks aufmerksam for reminding me about the presence of girls here! :)p17)
I recently came accross the concero DAC and am trying to dig out information about it...
Apart from burnspbesq/planx have not seen many feedbacks on this DAC... negative or positive.
from what i understood burnspbesq is a real fan of it! :)p1
Are there other's who have come accross this DAC and if yes what do you guys (and girls) think about it?
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There's better for the price now. If you can snag the Concero for $299, but be a good deal. Nothing particularly special.
For $600... do you think you can wait until Q3/Q4? There's a smallish footprint DAC that might be interesting.
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If you need transportable, the Geek Out V2 is a great DAC. Since they're being shipped on schedule, I feel pretty confident in the recommendation.
The Infinity is the one that does 2.1V output if you need it as a DAC only. I'm going to use mine with my leckerton.
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"smallish footprint DAC"... sounds intriguing... is the one from Schiit ? :)
Thanks Zerodeefex! based on the feedback am reading it sure seems like a safebet!
I have read more about the GO 450 than the other versions... does it mean that for the v2 it is better to get the v2 with the 450 gain option?
I use mainly my ie800 and mdr ex1000 these days and jh13pro...
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"smallish footprint DAC"... sounds intriguing... is the one from Schiit ? :)
Thanks Zerodeefex! based on the feedback am reading it sure seems like a safebet!
I have read more about the GO 450 than the other versions... does it mean that for the v2 it is better to get the v2 with the 450 gain option?
I use mainly my ie800 and mdr ex1000 these days and jh13pro...
Actually the GO100 setting might be perfect for the IE800 and JH13 unless you find those neutral (which they aren't) or too your preference. I think bass synergy might be good with those making the bass response seem a little more linear. EX1000 was just a hair under neutral for me in the low end (like 1-1.5dB) for my tastes, so the 1000 might add a nice little kick to the bottom on those. Note however on the v.1, the 100 sacrifices a touch of dynamic swing while the 1000 adds a little more distortion reducing the ultimate resolution a smidge. The 450 was the sweet spot there (dynamics, resolution, linearity) while the 720 was closer to the 1000 sonically.
I have yet to run the production v.2 through it's paces to fully compare though.
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There's better for the price now. If you can snag the Concero for $299, but be a good deal. Nothing particularly special.
For $600... do you think you can wait until Q3/Q4? There's a smallish footprint DAC that might be interesting.
any details at all, please?
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any details at all, please?
Search the board for "redacted" and look at the California meet thread http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2544.0/topicseen.html.
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Actually the GO100 setting might be perfect for the IE800 and JH13 unless you find those neutral (which they aren't) or too your preference. I think bass synergy might be good with those making the bass response seem a little more linear. EX1000 was just a hair under neutral for me in the low end (like 1-1.5dB) for my tastes, so the 1000 might add a nice little kick to the bottom on those. Note however on the v.1, the 100 sacrifices a touch of dynamic swing while the 1000 adds a little more distortion reducing the ultimate resolution a smidge. The 450 was the sweet spot there (dynamics, resolution, linearity) while the 720 was closer to the 1000 sonically.
I have yet to run the production v.2 through it's paces to fully compare though.
highly recommended you run these headphone in balanced configuration with GO V2 for a test. And see how you think. ;-)
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highly recommended you run these headphone in balanced configuration with GO V2 for a test. And see how you think. ;-)
Thx Larry. Is the prototype setup for balanced? If so I'll just get a 2.5>3.5mm adapter and give it a go.
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Thx Larry. Is the prototype setup for balanced? If so I'll just get a 2.5>3.5mm adapter and give it a go.
Hey Anax! Thanks for your detailed answer about the GO100 and the other versions! Indeed some more bass kick would nicely improve the the EX1000. So I jumped on the v2+ bandwagon....
Are you gonna do a write-up on the prototype you have?
About using the balanced output... not even sure the v2+ has a balanced output... if understand correctly , with the adapter you are mentionning, we can use any iems?
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Hey Anax! Thanks for your detailed answer about the GO100 and the other versions! Indeed some more bass kick would nicely improve the the EX1000. So I jumped on the v2+ bandwagon....
Are you gonna do a write-up on the prototype you have?
About using the balanced output... not even sure the v2+ has a balanced output... if understand correctly , with the adapter you are mentionning, we can use any iems?
Probably not worth the time to write on anything but the production unit. I presume one will make its way around eventually.
Adapter would only work is you have a balanced cable already.
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I'm sad.
I had upgrade fever. I wanted a shiny, new (or nearly-new) box on the shelf; I wanted better sound; I wanted to own and enjoy as near to a totl DAC as I could possibly afford --- and I seriously wanted to try some Schiit.
Fellow pirate Kothganesh, of this city, is now joyfully sailing a Yiggy, thus putting his Gungnir on (or rather, off) the shelf. He was kind enough to to give me first refusal on it a couple of months ago (I had a holiday coming up) and to bring it over to my place on a no-obligation loan, last weekend.
Even though it might have meant no onions for a month (Indian economy reference) or not feeding my wife at all for a week, I could not see this not leading to a deal and a permanent place on my shelf. I even love that the Gungnir has multiple outputs that I can simultaneous connect to own-volume-control devices. With 99.99% computer-source listening, I don't really need the pre-amp for source selection, and could dispense with it for destination selection. Brilliant.
I wired up the USB, and had no problems at all with instant Linux (Mint 17.1) identification of the Schiit device. For interest and comparison, I also fired up the on-board and dug out an optical SPDIF (I used to use that a lot, a decade or so ago, and I don't subscribe to the ruined-by-jitter claims) connector. I don't have any coax digital out on the box.
Whilst I thought I was hearing a somewhat smoother sound from the optical (could I have ABXed? I do doubt it), I was, whilst wanting to enjoy the new box, aware of something not quite right.
I believe in objective principles. If I had the facilities to ABX (or even blind AB) two DACs, I certainly would have done so, but I don't. With the pre-amp, I can AB sources, but, with changing PC source settings and/or DAC source settings, it is a two stage task that takes seconds and cannot possibly be done [single-handedly] blind.
It is necessary to say a few words about my ears. I have always suffered some high-frequency deficiency. Even at 20 I could not hold a conversation in a crowded room, much less a party. Two or three years ago, audiometry showed roll-off from 14k; more recently, it shows roll-off from 8k. No cymbal shimmer for me any longer, at least not without EQ.
Sadly, one can't compensate for my kind of ear problem by just turning stuff up --- because loud sounds hurt. I have to cover my ears when vehicles with blaring sirens rush by. My ears are a pain in the just-above-the-neck: not good, but over-sensitive.
So... auditioning the Gungnir... I became aware that some things, eg loud vocals and drum beats, were making me reach for the volume control, and then, having turned it down, being unhappy with the result.
I don't have a fraction of the experience of many other pirates: it is not so easy for me to quantify and put into words the nature of what I hear. Searching here, I discovered that I was not the only one to have felt such a thing with the gungnir: a pirate (I think it was maxvla) described a feeling of pressure on the ear, the word "shouty" was used. Merv said that the new USB board had fixed a percentage of this, but, it seems, not enough for me. Merv describes the DAC as keeping him awake, and that is fine by him: that doesn't work for me.
Possibly, if I only ever listened to orchestral music, I might have found it just fine, but I don't. At home (I go out for Indian classical music) I listen mostly to rock.
So... write me off as the guy who preferred an ODAC. :)p14
For now, yes, I do. I have no idea where to look now for its upgrade. It's price was such that I could buy it as an impulse buy, just for fun (but I've been using it ever since) but more expensive stuff, no, I cannot do that. And I have learnt the lesson that audition can, indeed, be very vital.
The small details... Gear: HD600 'phones, ifi iCAN hp amp, McCormack TLC-1 pre-amp, but also auditioned without pre-amp. Music: Mahler 1, Grateful Dead, Love.
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OK...as far as I am concerned...hello Gumby !
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You should try a Fulla or Geek perhaps. If you are married to the iCAN you really don't need better than those.
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Thad, I'm also looking for my upgrade from an ODAC (Rev B) to feed into a Cavalli Liquid Carbon. The Yggy is probably beyond what I'd ever pay for a DAC, especially because it's going to stay at work and it were stolen, it would really suck (nothing's ever been stolen here, but if someone knew what it was and was a piece of crap, they could take it).
I'm trying to keep the size down for desk space and maybe even to put it on top of my computer, but I want better than ODAC performance at <$600.
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I don't have a fraction of the experience of many other pirates: it is not so easy for me to quantify and put into words the nature of what I hear. Searching here, I discovered that I was not the only one to have felt such a thing with the gungnir: a pirate (I think it was maxvla) described a feeling of pressure on the ear, the word "shouty" was used.
I've often described my experience with the Gungnir using those same words. Even moreso when paired with the Mjolnir.
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You should try a Fulla or Geek perhaps. If you are married to the iCAN you really don't need better than those.
No, not married to iCAN. It was/is my first dedicated hp amp, but doesn't have to be my last. I don't have anything against it, but had high hopes of ifi as a company which have vapourised with that horrible marketing-tamasha hf feeding-frenzy-whip-up thread. No, certainly not married to ifi.
However... on the amplification front... no money for it just now, and, for various reasons, whatever it ends up, it will be solid state. No big-deal thing against valves, just don't feel like using them.
Might even end up using the head-phone socket of a currently unused Cyrus integrated amp. Pyrates may scoff at that, but it was exactly this that showed me how much more I could get from my headphones, compared to the hp-out of my Echo Audiofire unit.
Thad, I'm also looking for my upgrade from an ODAC (Rev B) to feed into a Cavalli Liquid Carbon. The Yggy is probably beyond what I'd ever pay for a DAC, especially because it's going to stay at work and it were stolen, it would really suck (nothing's ever been stolen here, but if someone knew what it was and was a piece of crap, they could take it).
I'm trying to keep the size down for desk space and maybe even to put it on top of my computer, but I want better than ODAC performance at <$600.
Ahh, that makes two of us!
But I will almost certainly never buy anything Yggy-priced. It doesn't matter if it equates to 2*, 5* or 10* the value; if one doesn't have the purchase price, it's off the screen. No budget. I can't by a Rolls Royce, or many a much more modest car: what you can't buy, you can't buy. Except, maybe, used... a year or three down the line.
But hey... is the Ygyy sound very different to the Gungnir?
The ODAC, in the comparison stakes, is quite bright, right? Well, refer my comments about my hearing, and bright is better for my ears, as long as it isn't shrill,which would hurt. For me, I find more detail in ODAC listening, which might be explained by a little more of the higher frequencies?
I wonder, by the way, in what way we want >ODAC? What do you find to be wrong with ODAC? I can't say that I actually find anything wrong with it: I'm just looking for that unknown know-it-when-I-hear-it something --- which might or not be there. I'm guessing there's reasons that everyone doesn't buy a <$200 DAC --- but hey, this is hifi, and anything is possible.
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I wonder, by the way, in what way we want >ODAC? What do you find to be wrong with ODAC? I can't say that I actually find anything wrong with it: I'm just looking for that unknown know-it-when-I-hear-it something --- which might or not be there. I'm guessing there's reasons that everyone doesn't buy a <$200 DAC --- but hey, this is hifi, and anything is possible.
As someone who just got into R2R, coming from the epithome of sd dacs, it's nigh impossible to understand the treble etch, until you actually hear it. But source matters as much if not more than dac anyway. I've gotten more improvements from working on my source (usb2coax converter, linear psu for said converter, using Jriver, using a stripped down windows specifically for audio, and lastly using daphile distro from a usb key).
Maybe you wouldn't hear the treble etch, maybe you would. There are ways to try on the cheap with ebay and diy, if you're really interested.
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But hey... is the Ygyy sound very different to the Gungnir?
Yes, but it is still a good dac for the money. Yet, there are other dacs out there that are as good of another flavor for close to your $600 figure. Used X-sabres, for example can be found just north of that at times. Or wait a bit longer to see what prices are like for the redacted 2
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I wonder, by the way, in what way we want >ODAC? What do you find to be wrong with ODAC? I can't say that I actually find anything wrong with it: I'm just looking for that unknown know-it-when-I-hear-it something --- which might or not be there. I'm guessing there's reasons that everyone doesn't buy a <$200 DAC --- but hey, this is hifi, and anything is possible.
Get over yourself with the hifi stuff. I already told you a better $200 DAC to buy and you just want to rail on hifi and the ODAC as god? Here's what you are missing.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2490.msg69698.html#msg69698
That's the versus the Geek Out v.1, not even the v.2 or Yggy. If being cheap makes you happy. Be happy, but don't try to piss all over the >$200 audio crowd just because you don't have the personal experience.
Seems you have asked this question before, yet here we are again for some reason.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1881.msg51151.html#msg51151
Both Luis and I used to have the ODAC as our reference portable DAC. Not anymore.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1797.msg48485.html#msg48485
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1657.msg44077.html#msg44077
ODAC has an unrefined treble, blurrier imaging, and a sense of low rez grain all over everything. All those plus bass and overall transparency and resolution can't even come close to the Geek's world let alone the Yggy.
Please use the search function and try not to ask the same question for a third time please. It's starting to look like you have some sort of nwavguy agenda.
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:spank: oouch!
I am so glad I never bought into the "this is all you'll ever need " odac hype :)p1
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Emotiva DC-1 vs. Audio-GD Reference 5? Assuming they are around the same price point (Ref 5 costing a bit more).
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Anax, I hear what you say, and I do respect and take notice of your experience. Wouldn't be here if I wasn't happy to listen to you, Merv, and others.
However, you can take your "pissing on hifi" and pour it into your own toilet, please. All those years and listening, and you are not cynical about some of the stuff that goes down, and some of the prices that get paid, and some of the claims of both sellers and buyer?. Isn't that one of the reasons you are here. On another site, that passes for daily diet, right?
I am quite open about my experience, and its gaps, and I am also quite open about the diagnosed deficiencies in my hearing. Still: I have a right to my cynicism too.
If you think I am pissing on what I believe is, in the hifi world, a bad attack of mass hysteria, then you right, and yes, I do have that agenda. If you think I am pissing on some of the pyrates here: no I am not. Tell me, on the other hand, that there is no need for that here, because it is preaching to the converted, then... sure. It is something I tend to rant about from time to time (but much more in other places).
I bought the ODAC because it was an impulse buy that I could afford, and I was very interested in, and learning from, all the NwAvGuy stuff at that time. No, I don't have an agenda. I'm not married to NwAvGuy or his DAC, but I suppose they were a part of my audio education. And, for a very small amount of money, it has been giving me enjoyable music for a while now. I recommended ODAC to a few people, back then: I don't now. It may very well be that it is more valuable as a piece of audio history now, than as a DAC.
I am not married to any piece of audio equipment. On the other hand, I'd like to be: I certainly intend that any other-than-nominal-price purchases should be long-term.
Seems you have asked this question before, yet here we are again for some reason.
Yep... in a different context. This time, I actually tried something else.
Perhaps my next buy should be Geek (I'll credit you of it is). It seems that could be a less-cost way of moving on my experience. On the other hand, I might shelve the project for another six months, go on reading and watching anfd ask the question yet again in the future :&
If there is a qualification of listening to so many DACs before posting here, then I won't bother. I don't believe there is, and experience can be posted great or small.
But hey, robust disagreement is also welcome! :)p7
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I am so glad I never bought into the "this is all you'll ever need " odac hype :)p1
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Well, I admit that I wondered, at the time. I still think it was probably a damn good way to spend $150 at that time. And, whether I move on to another <$200 DAC, or move up the price ladder, I do think I got value for money out of it.
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As someone who just got into R2R, coming from the epithome of sd dacs, it's nigh impossible to understand the treble etch, until you actually hear it.
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That's the thing... so far, I have not heard it. I need that experience. I'm also concerned that, with ears that don't hear treble very well, that it might end up not suiting me. Only the experience will tell me that...
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I assume you are not a native English speaker, yes?
But you do well enough to communicate your thoughts and that is fine.
I think what I would like to say is I have tried lots o 'dacs under $500 and they all have big enough problems that you may want to seek other. And once you have heard $1000-$3000 dacs it becomes very apparent there is a big difference, even though some are not much better than your run of the mill $1000 dac. Even so, I have used some really nice under $300 dacs and been satisfied with the result for a particular setup, but it is not a main setup.
As for spending $150 or more on a dac, yes, what ever blows your skirt up (as an ornery Texan once stated). But I think people here are trying to guide you to things that deliver well beyond $150 and the odac and it is based on good experience. If you don't agree, then, hey spend $200, $300, $500 etc and see what you hear.
Hey it is audio for crying out loud and there are bound to be opinions and disagreement.
cheers Mate
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I assume you are not a native English speaker, yes? .
As native as they come! British English, rather than American, though, which can make a difference.
I'm glad that you can appreciate my thoughts though :)p7 . There is probably some stuff in there that actually needs to be heard with an English accent, which means, in part, not to take too seriously.
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I think what I would like to say is I have tried lots o 'dacs under $500 and they all have big enough problems that you may want to seek other. And once you have heard $1000-$3000 dacs it becomes very apparent there is a big difference, even though some are not much better than your run of the mill $1000 dac. Even so, I have used some really nice under $300 dacs and been satisfied with the result for a particular setup, but it is not a main setup.
Ultimately, there is a limit to spending. That differs for all of us: obviously, incomes and responsibilities differ. I have mentioned elsewhere that I am very, very happy to be retired, being, essentially lazy --- but it has its downsides too. I don't think it will ever, now, break the 4-figure price barrier (in UK pounds, if not in US$) and I have to live with that. Of course, that doesn't mean that I'm not interested in what's out there and what it does.
The story of the present day is simply that the Gungnir, which I had hoped might shift my experience to a noticeable new level, doesn't --- because it doesn't work for me.
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I owned the DS Gungnir for about six months prior to receiving my Theta. I identify somewhat with your assessment of the DAC's effect on me physically, but it should be said that I also loved its tonality and still think it performed better than the Theta for certain types of music. There was this sensation of pressure and intensity that actually would occasionally give me a headache. I did not associate this so much with the treble but more from the forward midrange. This is not to say the mids were bad because indeed they were amazing; vocals were just lovely. And I hought for a DS DAC, the treble was incredibly smooth. Bass hit quite hard as well. On occasion, yes, I did get that sense which may best be described, for me at least, as being sickly sweet, like I had to lay off the DAC for a bit. Almost too much of a good thing. Overall, though, it represented a significant leap from the original Modi, which I had owned prior to the Gungnir. And in retrospect, I can see there was a real, concerted effort on behalf of Mr. Moffat to eschew the constraints inherent in DS technology. I have never heard the ODAC but would guess, based on simply impressions I have read, it is similar to the original Modi.
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Well Nick, I will get you the Geek Out 720 when we meet next for you to try.
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Wow... that would be really great! Many thanks!
There was this sensation of pressure and intensity that actually would occasionally give me a headache. I did not associate this so much with the treble but more from the forward midrange.
Exactly that. It was hard-hitting rock vocal that did it for me.
So far as amplification bottle-neck is concerned, I do also have Kothganesh's Bottle Head Crack here. At first, I wanted to keep my equipment to the familiar, on the change-just-one-thing principle, so I didn't try it. Then I got a bit upset that my buying plan didn't work out, so still haven't bothered. But I will, before it goes home. Never mind that I don't actually want valves (and I do have an Ocean Audio thingie, but it is very unreliable) it is still worth the experience.
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I do also have Kothganesh's Bottle Head Crack here
Yes, it is a different kettle of fish with the Crack. The problem is much reduced. not entirely gone, but much less. I'm not 100% sure that the combination is my kettle of fish exactly but it looks like there is a lot to work on here.
It's 31.5C (88.7F) ambient here just now, and today is not a hot day. That's one of the reasons I'm not wild about valves.
So, I guess the ifi is crap? hey ho... maybe. Can't afford to upgrade everything in one go. Anyway, that's verging on Amp talk...
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With all due respect, Thad, you have said yourself that your hearing is significantly compromised in terms of frequency response. I think this will naturally affect how much benefit you can derive from certain gear. Or perhaps since you aren't really hearing portions of the signal you notice things other would not - like if you watched one side of the TV screen you might notice background things that your eye wouldn't focus on if presented with the full frame.
Anyhow, as always, find what you like and what you can afford.
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C.A. thread from '09 on multi-bit vs. DS DACs. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/multi-bit-dacs-vs-delta-sigma-dacs-2066/
I don't know much about the difference between the two so those easy-to-read posts by Idiot Savant were helpful, I just don't know if he knows what he's talking about.
There's something interesting in there about resistors in multi-bit DACs varying over time and temperature. He poses it as one of the weaknesses inherent to multi-bit designs. Is this true?
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Yes, Azteca, you are right. I think it is harder to please my ears now than it was even a few years ago.
Still have a lot of music enjoyment left, though, I hope!
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Nick, I'm not pressuring you at all but if you want to take an additional week with the Gungnir/BH Crack, feel free.
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There's something interesting in there about resistors in multi-bit DACs varying over time and temperature. He poses it as one of the weaknesses inherent to multi-bit designs. Is this true?
Yes. Seems like the best solution would be a MB architecture that avoids a discrete network of hand matched resistors with lots of potential variability over time. ;)
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Nick, I'm not pressuring you at all but if you want to take an additional week with the Gungnir/BH Crack, feel free.
Cheers and thanks :)p7
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Yes. Seems like the best solution would be a MB architecture that avoids a discrete network of hand matched resistors with lots of potential variability over time. ;)
This http://soekris.com/products/audio-products/dam1021.html (http://soekris.com/products/audio-products/dam1021.html) is the kind of "discrete" set-up anax is talking about; it is most susceptible to the issues raised by idiotsavant in that thread at CA. The AD57x1 chips in the yggy and gumby don't use discrete resistors. The issue with voltage values is still valid since it is how r-2r fundamentally functions, but can be addressed with better implementations.
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So, I'll just bring up that there are comments from people who may be biased/butt-hurt against Schiit/whatever, claiming that AGD-19 is better than Gumby... just wondering if anyone's had a chance to compare the two. I recall reading some comments about the PCM-1704UK in the old DAC thread, but don't really remember much, as the thread kind of disintegrated. Anyone care to summarize? Personally, I'm just asking for info... I'm going Gumby myself, just thought it might be useful to get objective opinions on the DACs for people who are interested. I think we have a more objective voice here that could potentially be useful for others.
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Seems like the best solution would be a MB architecture that avoids a discrete network of hand matched resistors with lots of potential variability over time.
I have tortured my Dam more than is expected from a tough design and it still held strong against Yggs. I guess i will see (hear) how it stands against time. Discrete resistors can withstand time-strain as well as laser trimmed ic-s, why wouldn't they? It's more about their standard precision spec that is lacking a bit vs IC-s.
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Here's my view on Yggdrasil vs Master 7
Schiit's digital filter is so much better than audio-gd's implementation. Yggy has very accurate/real sounding soundstage with depth. Master 7 sounds wider but is very flat in depth. Yggy has more stereo cues and spacial information. You need to use speakers inorder to hear the Ygg 3D soundstage.
Yggy has much more resolution/microdetail than Master 7. Master 7 is no slouch either, but ygg outclassed it.
Tonally Master 7 is more lush/veiled and darker. Yggy is brighter and can sound glassy. Both offer the same kind of natural r2r tone in their own way.
Yggy is more dynamic/explosive, Master 7 is more reserved/relaxed.
Yggy is brutally honest on bad music, Master 7 is more forgiving.
Master 7 is slower on attack and has much longer decay on the sound envelope, Yggy has faster attack, but no additional decay.
Master 7 has boomy bass, Yggy bass extends deeper and is stronger.
Master 7 requires I2S ddc to sound best. Yggy can get away with it's gen3 usb.
Master 7 runs hotter than Yggy and is quite heavier.
Yggy has annoying relay clicking noise and delay+muting when changing sample rates. Master 7 dsp does sliently and on the fly.
Master 7 is more tweakable and more DIY/Repair friendly while Yggy is quite a fortress/complex electronic.
Acoustic Guitar is where Master 7 sounds best, while Yggy really excels in presenting piano.
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Yes. Seems like the best solution would be a MB architecture that avoids a discrete network of hand matched resistors with lots of potential variability over time. ;)
This http://soekris.com/products/audio-products/dam1021.html (http://soekris.com/products/audio-products/dam1021.html) is the kind of "discrete" set-up anax is talking about; it is most susceptible to the issues raised by idiotsavant in that thread at CA. The AD57x1 chips in the yggy and gumby don't use discrete resistors. The issue with voltage values is still valid since it is how r-2r fundamentally functions, but can be addressed with better implementations.
Got ya, thanks.
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I'm excited! I will be checking out the EAR Dac 4 and transport section in my own system. Going to listen and see if I want to end up upgrading from the EAR Dacute I have. The Dac 4 has a slightly revised and bigger tube/transformer output section. I'll have it for a few days.
(http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/1492706/25307930/1407826489387/WBSNYC_EAR-Acute4.png?token=faDRXi6iP9ubGUR8fdHniapzW2A%3D)
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Sweet! Can't wait to hear it.
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Lets meet up sometime in the next week then.