CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on September 08, 2012, 02:17:19 PM
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Introducing the HD800 Rabid Dog Mod I (Anax 2.0) - note the Rabid Dog ][ (or Anax 3.0) is still experimental
- HD800 with improper* Anax mods (no dust cover)
- HD800 unmodded (no dust cover)
- HD800 with original Anax mod (w/ dust cover)
- HD800 with latest Rabid Dawg prototype mod (no dust cover)
* The official Anax mod has a larger outer circumference which sits over the metal ring on the HD800 driver. This is critical as it effectively extends the "baffle" of the driver to increase bass response. The larger area also plays a role in absorbing sound refraction. The mod which Jason implemented was from Tyll's template using only one layer of Creatology play foam. Tyll's mod is uses a skinny ring and is dependent upon using various layers of foam and felt to work effectively. Bottom line is that using the skinny ring and one layer of Creatology play foam evidently makes the HD800 sound worse.
On the Rabid Dawg mod: Anax and I had shared various ideas in the past year or so, but we never got down to implementing them until now.
PIX AND DESCRIPTION: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,497.msg9987.html#msg9987 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,497.msg9987.html#msg9987)
MATERIALS AND PDF CUTOUT: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,497.msg9997.html#msg9997 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,497.msg9997.html#msg9997)
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Is there a description of the Rabid Dog mod? Linky?
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Can we get a full FR?
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No descriptions yet. We are still tweaking it. It's a little bit more complex than what we had earlier.
- HD800 with improper* Anax mods (no dust cover)
- HD800 unmodded (no dust cover)
- HD800 with original Anax mod (w/ dust cover)
- HD800 with latest Rabid Dawg prototype mod (no dust cover)
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Rabid dawg huh? That a reference to a certain sticker-happy MOT by any chance? :)p8
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Good work guys. Looks promising. popcorn
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Wow...you guys have made some serious progress!
I needs to hear this Rabid Dawg! :)p1
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Holy crap, I may really end up liking these headphones now . . .
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I know I certainly am with the HD800s and Mjolnir that someone left at my house.
P.S. It's still a bright headphone. But less wierd. And we didn't tune with measurements. We tuned with a list of specific tracks.
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And we didn't tune with measurements. We tuned with a list of specific tracks.
That's crazy!
I hear the Paradox manufacturer tunes the same way. ;)
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Pretty damn cool.
Good work.
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That's crazy!
I hear the Paradox manufacturer tunes the same way. ;)
Wait a sec. I thought all you measurement guys didn't listen to music and just fondled your charts and graphs? Music is incomprehensible and serves as kryptonite to you objectivist types with your boring straight lines.
(By the way, congrats on this. Looks extremely promising!)
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Indeed, great work! :)p5
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That's crazy!
I hear the Paradox manufacturer tunes the same way. ;)
Wait a sec. I thought all you measurement guys didn't listen to music and just fondled your charts and graphs? Music is incomprehensible and serves as kryptonite to you objectivist types with your boring straight lines.
(By the way, congrats on this. Looks extremely promising!)
We do like to fondle.... :)p2
We be pirates in this here forum! :)p4
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Doods. Nice.
I wish to see the specifics once it's closest to perfection.
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Very impressive!
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Looks very promising! Can you describe in more detail? You're covering the screen mesh To increase the bass? Also, you're using a combination of materials to tackle the 5kHz in priority and not shelve the highs too much?
The melamine foam mod I had simulated was to reduce the whole upper mids / HF response. Adding more or less impervious top layer can have surprising effect such as boost in absorption at the resonance frequency of the layup (like what a bass trap does with room LF modes).
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- Not covering the entire mesh. We discovered if too much of the mesh is covered, we lose depth and openness, especially in conjunction with #2 below. We actually backed off a bit on the Creatology from the original. This version is actually slightly less bassy than the original Anax mod.
- In addition to the Creatology, we are using another more porous material to further absorb the high frequencies. An accidental side effect was that it also helped to effectively lift up the region between 2k-5k making the transition to the 6kHz resonance much smoother. The nature and the exact cutout and placement of this material remains secret for now.
- One of the issues with the original Anax mod was that while it lifted up the bass and lower mids, it also left the 2k-5kHz region just as if not more recessed. The increased thickness was a nice balance to the elevated treble shelf of the HD800, but that wierd sounding 5k to 6kHz transition was always there. Since we've now gotten this transition a little smoother, we can back off on the bass/lower mid increase, so we cut back the diameter Creatology ring around strategic spots.
- It's still a bright headphone. Just less annoying and less weird.
- These ideas had actually been floating around for some time based on measurements of on the effect of specific pieces of the original mod. We had some inkling on what to do, but didn't get around to it. I stopped caring after stats, but thanks to the mystery of Jason's really bad sounding HD800, it rekindled my interest. Also Mike held me prisoner for most of the day and insisted on trying yet a 13th variation of the mods. Yes, that is about how many different trial-and-error configurations we tested. Both subjective and objective methods were used to arrive at this version which we feel is close to final.
- It's called Rabid Dawg because we ended up using some material that my dogs may have pissed on.
- The mods will eventually be publicly released. Mostly likely we will release templates. We may offer cheap kits for sale to recoup the cost of my wife giving me the evil eye for the next few days. (Ignoring the family to organize a big meet already really pushed the limits.)
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I was looking at those graphs again and you guys managed to make an amazingly well targeted mod. It pretty much looks like a physical PEQ. Even better since and EQ couldn't help the CSD any. It's pretty incredible you managed to do that just by putting stuff in the ear side of the cup.
Makes you wonder why Senn released the HD800 the way they did with the enclosure letting down the driver so much. It makes me curious about raw HD800 driver measurements. Is that even possible without destroying it? Is the HD800 as easy to take apart as the 580/600/650?
I'm also kind curious about exactly how "targeted" this mod is. Like if it relies on the consistency of a certain mass produced material, like the melamine arnaud mentioned, matching up exactly with frequency of the dip in that particular HD800. If so, other people might not be able to replicate you results because the available materials don't match up with their HD800.
I'd like to hear an HD800 with those mods and see how well it deals with the issues I had with last pair I listened to.
Anyway, take you time with the refinements and don't take this as rushing you or anything.
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- It's called Rabid Dawg because we ended up using some material that my dogs may have pissed on.
Oh, obviously! This should have been mentioned first and foremost, the rest had no influence I am sure. I understand it's difficult to market around. Maybe more challenging than the TP mod on the LCD3. But you can do it marv. The future of the HD800 depends on you, and your dog for that matter.
Really curious to hear it at some point, awesome job as usual guys!
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Stunning results... still unaffordable for us Starving Student pirates... I guess the HD600 will have to do for a while
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Very nice work guys.
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- It's called Rabid Dawg because we ended up using some material that my dogs may have pissed on.
How important, would you say, is the urine to the end result?
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This mod looks GREAT.
I especially like how the transition into the 6K peak looks.
After fussing with several others I look forward to trying this one as well.
JJ :)p2
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- It's called Rabid Dawg because we ended up using some material that my dogs may have pissed on.
How important, would you say, is the urine to the end result?
It's essential to adding a little low end coloration. ;)
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It sounded better as Rabid Dawg :(
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- It's called Rabid Dawg because we ended up using some material that my dogs may have pissed on.
- The mods will eventually be publicly released. Mostly likely we will release templates. We may offer cheap kits for sale to recoup the cost of my wife giving me the evil eye for the next few days. (Ignoring the family to organize a big meet already really pushed the limits.)
I'd be interested in this. Not only because I'm a poor cutter, but because after peeking around the mod threads at HF and visiting different convenience stores I've found that most of the materials aren't available in my part of the world. Of course there might be some that work as a substitute, but the composition might still be different.
Also, may I have your friends sprinkle coca cola on the materials instead prior to mailing the kit? That'd be awesome. Kool thx bro. :)p1
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- It's called Rabid Dawg because we ended up using some material that my dogs may have pissed on.
- The mods will eventually be publicly released. Mostly likely we will release templates. We may offer cheap kits for sale to recoup the cost of my wife giving me the evil eye for the next few days. (Ignoring the family to organize a big meet already really pushed the limits.)
I'd be interested in this. Not only because I'm a poor cutter, but because after peeking around the mod threads at HF and visiting different convenience stores I've found that most of the materials aren't available in my part of the world. Of course there might be some that work as a substitute, but the composition might still be different.
x2
Also, may I have your wife, or if you have daughters, have them pee on the materials instead prior to mailing the kit? That'd be awesome. Kool thx bro. :)p1
??? WAT? Uh... dude... WTF?
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??? WAT? Uh... dude... WTF?
Yeah... I think this is one of those cases of "sounded better in their head." Should have stayed there.
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popcorn :)p8
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The good thing about Rabid Dawg's is you already have all the foam you need.
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The good thing about Rabid Dawg's is you already have all the foam you need.
Tari,
Makings puns at the cost of other members will not be tolerated here. Such puns demoralize people. Please refrain from such nonsense in the future.
I hope you agree to disagree or agree for disagreement for arguments sake.
(cc: Purrin)
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Great and glorious leader,
I apologize for any dog-related puns you may have inferred from my posts.
I understand that I'm on a short leash now. But if you think I'm just going to play dead, you're barking up the wrong tree.
I'm really tired - I'm going to go take a nap. Let lying members sleep.
Tari
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WTF? That turncoat CY Leung is Joe?
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WTF? That turncoat CY Leung is Joe?
I will not stand for this demeaning accusation! Such things can get you banned, even if you are a "master".
I hope you agree to understand to disagree or disassociate the belief of being agreeable.
(cc: Communist Party, Jude)
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How do you become a master with 4 posts? :)p5
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Commies must have hacked in here.
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Commies must have hacked in here.
ahoy
How much must I pay to be "master"?
I have money.
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Right, too far. Sorry about that :D
Must've been hearing too much of that Japanese panty fetish crap.
Googleli, dude you so gay, but you can be my master if I can pose in a picture wearing an LCD3.
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WHAT!?
I am not gay!! I just want to be master here. I own a lot of expensive gear and escorts!!! I just want to contribute.
Mods, do something as I don't want to get really angry. If I have to continue this thread will get ugly. I am warning you. I know the internet police. My rich friend works for internet police and they are not nice.
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WHAT!?
I am not gay!! I just want to be master here. I own a lot of expensive gear and escorts!!! I just want to contribute.
Mods, do something as I don't want to get really angry. If I have to continue this thread will get ugly. I am warning you. I know the internet police. My rich friend works for internet police and they are not nice.
Sorry Googleli. facepalm
Dry your tears.
This isn't head-fi. We don't cater to noobs, mass marketing or know-nothings here. Our mods don't ban/censor awesome people just allow more dumb fucks on the site. Just roll with the punches and try to have a good time. Pay a writer to come up with some good come-back lines.
Yo mama jokes are fine here, yo daddy jokes are as well. I would say [redickted] jokes are fine too but I know you a wee bit...sensitive on that issue. )(
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WHAT!?
I am not gay!! I just want to be master here. I own a lot of expensive gear and escorts!!! I just want to contribute.
Mods, do something as I don't want to get really angry. If I have to continue this thread will get ugly. I am warning you. I know the internet police. My rich friend works for internet police and they are not nice.
Sorry Googleli. facepalm
Dry your tears.
This isn't head-fi. We don't cater to noobs, mass marketing or know-nothings here. Our mods don't ban/censor awesome people just allow more dumb fucks on the site. Just roll with the punches and try to have a good time. Pay a writer to come up with some good come-back lines.
Yo mama jokes are fine here, yo daddy jokes are as well. I would say [redickted] jokes are fine too but I know you a wee bit...sensitive on that issue. )(
Ha! (sorry, still dwelling on the last page)
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Question, do you actually need to train a dog to pee on your HD800s from time to time to keep the sound fresh? Will there be different flavors available? I don't want to buy a mod kit with some wimpy chihuaha pee on it.
Otherwise I'm pretty astonished, that's a very considerate change to the curve.
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I have no idea what we're talking about anymore. :)p13
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popcorn
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We'll be releasing the mods publicly, but maybe also offer mod kits for people so they don't need to mess with cutting stuff. Stayed tuned. Been horrible busy lately.
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Maybe I will need to buy the HD800 now!!
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OK, here are some pix:
- The Creatology foam circle now has a smaller outer diameter in the front half, but retains the same outer diameter in the back half. In other words, the ring width is smaller in front and than in the back. This results in a less thick sound compared to version 1.0. Some people may prefer the wide ring from version 1.0. The 2nd part of the mod below (the mesh) was so effective in flattening out the measured response in the upper mids and treble that we decided we could back off from the extra bass/mids of the original mod.
- The metal mesh is not covered with shelf liner type material. We actually used a fairly thick piece from rug liner.
Will include PDF cutouts in another post.
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PDF cutout template attached. Start cutting things up!
MATERIALS LIST:
Rug Liner:
http://www.amazon.com/Non-slip-Better-Rug-20-Inch-30-Inch/dp/B006EK4I80/ref=sr_1_8?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1382810327&sr=1-8&keywords=mohawk+rug+pad
Foam Sheets:
http://www.michaels.com/sticky-back-foam-sheets/kd3124,default,pd.html?cgid=products-kidsteachers-foamandfeltcrafting-foam
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I'll see if I can do this sometime soon and post measurements. Thanks for the continued effort. :)p7
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Awesome. That non-slip rug backing was a material I was always thinking about trying but never got around to...
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Is that drawer/cabinet lining? I've seen it used long ago in the JVC HARX700 mods, but I never really knew if it had good acoustic properties. What other ways might you be able to use it (ex: inside cups)?
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Yeah, the drawer lining should work, but get the thicker stuff. At least that's what we used.
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For those that want a brighter sig closer to stock, you can also ignore the inner ring and just use the liner w/ the trap.
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Yeah, the drawer lining should work, but get the thicker stuff. At least that's what we used.
Do you think it might work inside cups as well? Perhaps on top of the adhesive foam? Just trying to think of other possibilities. :)
Awesome find/mod, BTW. Simple, yet effective. Would love to try these out if I could!
Edit: Ah, I see that you mentioned the thicker liner you used in your post. Unless that was a later edit.
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Yeah, the drawer lining should work, but get the thicker stuff. At least that's what we used.
Do you think it might work inside cups as well? Perhaps on top of the adhesive foam?
What do you mean? Isn't that where the picture shows it?
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I honestly have no idea what the HD800 looks like internally. I assumed that was on the ear-side baffle...
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Great work Mike and Marv. I like the look of that rug liner material, I'm guessing from playing with similar things that the holes would help keep soundstage.
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Correct Whitney. Otherwise you get a solid baffle and alter the balance at the extremes quite a bit. This is a good area to play with for those willing compromise SS to shift treble to bass.
@hans
You mean in front of the black mesh in the back? I take it you don't mean the Creatology foam then. The liner isn't to supplement the foam, it's meant to deal w/ the surface of the stainless steel mesh.
Basically the baffle is the cup. Think of the HD800 as basically a revised K1000. It's essentially an angled 56mm driver suspended in near free air. Middle is the driver deconstructed. The top shows how the driver assembly is positioned under the black screen and supported/suspended by the leona (http://www.asahikaseiplastics.com/products/leona.html)(ironically a Japanese plastic) frame and stainless mesh. Below is the HD650 driver next to the HD800.
I think any further macro tuning is going to require a Dremel. :)p3
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-G5JxvURfPls/TsFNTHV3iBI/AAAAAAAAAFs/GYmBrHnQ1WY/s400/HD800.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1aZu1cSeHt4/TsFNe2RDchI/AAAAAAAAAF0/TBiKD2F60Eo/s640/hd800cross.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cN3Kj9bhOh4/TsPrLHh2JYI/AAAAAAAAAGo/aee4oOu_wu8/s400/HD800d_big.jpg)
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Interesting! Still, I was mainly asking if that material might be good for interior cup damping on more "standard" headphones. Might just have to find out for myself!
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Interesting! Still, I was mainly asking if that material might be good for interior cup damping on more "standard" headphones. Might just have to find out for myself!
Ah, gotcha. Maybe, depends. All these different phones have their own unique issues/designs and can react differently to similar solutions. Try it out.
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So I went out and got some shelf liner material. And after fussing and cutting and pushing and poking, it's in there.
But since I don't have creatology foam I used felt for the trapezoid pieces and double stick tape to hold the shelf liner in place.
That stuff (shelf liner) is a PIA and 1/2 to work with. But once I got the hang of it and found the 'right' tools, I could place it and form it into the 3d shape needed.
So far the initial impression is the mid, mids and up are smoother with less 'fatigue'. The bass is a little bit better as in slightly elevated but still not 'flat'.
But over all the sound stage is smoother, more cohesive top to bottom with a bit more inner detail and resolution on each 'voice'. And the subtle harmonics surrounding each voice (the 'air') is more connected to its source.
And yeah they are still bright, but less 'prickly'.
I'll order up some creatology foam and add that in there as a stage 2 part of my fussing.
Thanks Purrin - Analixus and anyone else in furthering this effort.
JJ
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Oh man, just noticed the PDF files that were posted. Gonna give this a shot this weekend. I'm currently using the foam+felt using the PDF on Inner Fidelity to great effect.
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So I have a question.
What are the dimensions of the center ring?
I ask because there are none listed on the pdf and I'm setting up to make the creatology rings. And the rings a shown on the sheet seem way to large.
JJ
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inside diameter = 2.22"
outside diameter = 3.167"
when you print it out, make sure your printer driver is not resizing the PDF to the size of the 8x11 sheet. The actual width of the PDF document is 8.067 x 10.347 inches.
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Yeah I ran into that re-sizing dilemma.
Thus my question for actual size info.
Also what is the thickness at it's smallest of the 'more neutral sound' ring.
Thanks
JJ
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The hole in the template is slightly off center too and needs to be compensated for.
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Results thus far
1st run with the shelf material only. As noted in my previous post. It should be noted that the changes are compared to the previous mod of Analixus/Tyll configuration.
2nd run with creatology foam ring of 80 x 55mm and trapazoid.
To much dampening. Bass lacked punch and extension. Smoother overall response but distant (soundstage veiled and pulled away).
3rd run with cretology ring of 68 x 56mm and same trapazoid
Bass punch and extension return. Smoother still with less veiling and more upfront soundstage. More detail and ability to hear small details and ambiance around voices.
No dust covers on runs #2 and #3 but were in place on run #1
If the dust cover is added on run #3, added a slight veiling in mids and up, (which is what you'd expect.)
JJ
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Nice work guys :)p14
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Cool stuff!
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Tease: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,589.0.html (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,589.0.html) (continuation of this thead)