CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on July 03, 2012, 06:12:18 AM
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Sennheiser Orpheus HE90 Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=382.0;attach=1659;image)
I was able to get a good seal on these too.
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Just drooled on my keyboard.
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So Marv, which one do you favor - Orpheus or Omega?
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Orpheus for me, no contest. An Orpheus II would be the only thing to pull me away from my HD800 rig. I wait patiently and perhaps vainly....
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wouldn't mind a dynamic with that kind of response either... obviously Senn is lying when they claim the HD800 to be neutral.
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Wow, and I thought the first Omega had an impressive graph!
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wouldn't mind a dynamic with that kind of response either... obviously Senn is lying when they claim the HD800 to be neutral.
It's obvious the HD800 is diffuse field, HE90 isn't so I'm not sure what claim of neutrality Senn is making w/ the HD800 unless one assumes diffuse field is neutral. A claim I've had a little trouble w/ going back to the ER4.
http://www.sennheiserusa.com/dynamic-stereo-headphones-high-sound-quality_500319 (http://www.sennheiserusa.com/dynamic-stereo-headphones-high-sound-quality_500319)
I think they might have for the HD700. ::) I know plenty of users who don't work for Senn making those claims though.
HE90 is one/two minor points of EQ and some deeper bass impact away from being perfect for me. Closest yet, when it's on it's on. Not all HE90 rigs have sounded the same to me so far though which I believe is due to amp variances?
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Got a question for you measurement pros. I heard n3rdling's HE90+HEV90 rig at the meet and it's the best I've heard for classical music. Not even the BH or LL comes close. The only thing I've heard that punches in the same weight class is my DHT preamp, but I'd probably give the edge to the Orpheus setup. Unfortunately, I found the Orpheus completely uninvolving for every other genre. I heard a few other people echo a similar sentiment.
How does the HE90 measure so well, yet come off as so limited? Is it an amping issue, or other characteristics intrinsic to the HE90? Does the quality of the HE90 fundamentally change with the Aristaeus?
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IDK, sometimes some headphones are "slow burners" as I call them. The Omega 2 was like this for me. When I first heard it, I thought they sounded really fantastic, but they didn't move me per se. It took a few weeks for me to discover their full charm.
Perhaps the HE90 is like that for you? Maybe if you lived with it for a while, you'd find you couldn't go back to anything else.
For me the HE90 was insta-WOW with just about everything I heard out of it. If I had a disposable 20k to invest in an Orpheus set I so would. In a heartbeat. If I found the HE90 on its own for half of that, I'd definitely consider it too.
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The Orpheus is the most involving setup I've heard. HEV90 and Aristaeus sound very similar to me based on memory. I haven't gotten around to doing a legit A/B comparison yet. I'd say the HEV90 sounds more romantic and a bit more open. I knew it was gonna measure super flat. I basically only listen to the HE90 now.
Romy where'd you hear the Orpheus?
Now everybody can say they'd heard the Orpheus ;) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scExtoMB4FA
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Romy where'd you hear the Orpheus?
There's a fellow in Houston with a set, an acquaintance of one of my audiophile buddies. We had a mini-meet at his town home on two separate occasions. That was also the first time I heard the R10, incidentally.
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Just drooled on my keyboard.
LOL! Did the same thing :P. If these sound as good as they measure, I gotta hear them! Except there are no meets in France :(.
Are they really neutral or do they still have some kind of coloration?
How's the bass compared to HD800?
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Jesus.
Would be nice to hear some subjective impressions as well - never gonna own these, so might as well live vicariously through someone else.
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i don't know what to say really except holy crap they look amazing and you guys that got to hear these are lucky turds, you know that.
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wouldn't mind a dynamic with that kind of response either... obviously Senn is lying when they claim the HD800 to be neutral.
It's obvious the HD800 is diffuse field, HE90 isn't so I'm not sure what claim of neutrality Senn is making w/ the HD800 unless one assumes diffuse field is neutral. A claim I've had a little trouble w/ going back to the ER4.
http://www.sennheiserusa.com/dynamic-stereo-headphones-high-sound-quality_500319 (http://www.sennheiserusa.com/dynamic-stereo-headphones-high-sound-quality_500319)
I think they might have for the HD700. ::) I know plenty of users who don't work for Senn making those claims though.
HE90 is one/two minor points of EQ and some deeper bass impact away from being perfect for me. Closest yet, when it's on it's on. Not all HE90 rigs have sounded the same to me so far though which I believe is due to amp variances?
Headphone variances as well. The ones sold in the Jan Meier group buy have more upper midrange energy than the vintage ones sold with HEV90 amp.
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I have always loved the HE90 but not out of it's native amp. Always sounded much too romantic for me. I, like Anax, have always found them to sound different and I always imagined it was due to the amp and/or rig it was attached to. Very impressive measurements.
WTF couldn't Sennheiser release an Orpheus II instead of the craptastic HD700?!?!?!?
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WTF couldn't Sennheiser release an Orpheus II instead of the craptastic HD700?!?!?!?
Because Beyer has nothing to compete w/ the HD800, why bother? I think the recent proliferation of $2K+ phones has Senn dusting off the schematics though.
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I was told some things that have me believe they at least were working on something big.
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Hopefully their headphone amp sells well, as I'd imagine they'll use that as a guiding point for determining their market opportunity for more high-end products.
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Headphone variances as well. The ones sold in the Jan Meier group buy have more upper midrange energy than the vintage ones sold with HEV90 amp.
In my experience this extends much further as there are huge differences even in the original production run. Compare the first sets, middle production and the last few dozen and they are all different.
How the stators were made was in its infancy in 1990 and there was no consistency so they tried to match and tweak. The amp also went through two major design changes but I never got a straight answer whether they tinkered with the headphones to match these changes or not. The engineers didn't even want to admit the differences in the amps until I showed them my proof...
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SN on this set is #136 fwiw. I'm not sure I've heard a difference in different HE90 sets from the same amp, at least when both sets have ear pads in similar condition. Changing out my new earpads with the old, flaked out ones does make a bit of a difference though.
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WTF couldn't Sennheiser release an Orpheus II instead of the craptastic HD700?!?!?!?
Because Beyer has nothing to compete w/ the HD800, why bother? I think the recent proliferation of $2K+ phones has Senn dusting off the schematics though.
Orpheus placed in historical context didn't do that well. Then the HD580+ series came along and became a cash cow for Sennheiser. If the HD700 is the ultimate evolution (/bastardization) of the 580s then here's hoping that Sennheiser pops out a couple of more duds so there's a greater incentive to take a second look at stats as statement products.
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SN on this set is #136 fwiw. I'm not sure I've heard a difference in different HE90 sets from the same amp, at least when both sets have ear pads in similar condition. Changing out my new earpads with the old, flaked out ones does make a bit of a difference though.
It's me so naturally the same set of earpads and my slightly modded arc assembly. This is a headphone arc not made for vikings... ;) All driven off the same amps and with bias box in the middle.
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It's obvious the HD800 is diffuse field, HE90 isn't so I'm not sure what claim of neutrality Senn is making w/ the HD800 unless one assumes diffuse field is neutral. A claim I've had a little trouble w/ going back to the ER4.
Actually the HE90 is much closer to DF. Here's an old Headroom graph of the HE90 and they normalize to DF.
http://cdn.head-fi.org/1/15/158c85a7_OrpheusFR.png
The HE90 Is very close to DF with a few bumps and dips but mostly seems (never actually heard it) to come off as warm due to a slight tilt to the bass.
The HD800's FR is either just something they pulled out of their ass or those graphs they send out are based on a very odd sampling of heads and ears.
Of course like I always say, it's impossible to have a neutral headphone because without moving a lot more air you can't make something sound neutral and feel neutral at the same time. The ER4 goes all the way to the sound end of the spectrum.
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HD800 uses the WTF (weaponized tweeter field)
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HD800 uses the WTF (weaponized tweeter field)
We'll see how you feel about that later when I drop off my rig. ;)
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@ Mav
As for DF, the ER4 uses it and the UERM/B2/DBA all seem to share the same basic DF signature. Senn claimed to use DF in tuning the 800 and the curve looks similar to those other DF phones to me. Maybe DF is supposed to yield a 'warm' sound but my experience w/ these phones has been anything but tbh.
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Of course like I always say, it's impossible to have a neutral headphone because without moving a lot more air you can't make something sound neutral and feel neutral at the same time. The ER4 goes all the way to the sound end of the spectrum.
And I respectfully disagree. :-)
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The engineers didn't even want to admit the differences in the amps until I showed them my proof...
That must have been a good moment. I would like to confront Beyer's "engineers" with a pair of empty T1 cups. There are a number of people in the ortho thread, and on this forum that would have made a much better headphone given their resources.
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I attempt to use a "this is the shit I hear" field.
We'll see how you feel about that later when I drop off my rig. ;)
Your's is modded. It doesn't count.
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HD800 uses the WTF (weaponized tweeter field)
Made me laugh, but so true
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As for DF, the ER4 uses it and the UERM/B2/DBA all seem to share the same basic DF signature. Senn claimed to use DF in tuning the 800 and the curve looks similar to those other DF phones to me. Maybe DF is supposed to yield a 'warm' sound but my experience w/ these phones has been anything but tbh.
The important part about DF vs FF vs whatever is all about where the peaks in the FR are, not just bright or dark.
From, the graphs, the HE90 gets those parts right and then essentially tilts the whole FR a little dark with one of those "see-saw" sort of tone controls.
The HD800's FR is just too screwed up to pass as anything recognizable. It could be DF with a mid-bass boost if the treble started dropping off after 4khz or so but depending on your method of normalization it either has a peak there or the plateau extends too far.
You can compare the HATS' HRTFs to the raw measurements.
http://cdn.head-fi.org/0/07/0717c032_HeadAcousticsHRTFflip.png
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD800.pdf
Tyll uses ID but the HD800 has too much between about 4 and 8khz for any of them.
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DF doesn't imply a midbass boost at all. DF usually tend to keep the midbass to low-bass flat while slowly diving down to the sub-bass. FF is suppose to emulate speakers in a dead room so basically there would be slight 2db increase around 100hz to try to add weight to the kick and from around 50hz and under have slight boost to allow the headphone to give that sensational rumble from the lower octave(s). biggest difference between DF and FF is response past 10khz. lot DF headphones will have slight couple db dip at 10khz and rise around with tad peak from 14khz till around 18khz and take dive around 20khz so the headphone will provide that ''airy'' sound.
FF tends to peak 10khz a db or so and doesn't exhibit that much of a peak from 14khz and above so it will not be too airy and so forth. usually free-field tries to stay flat or takes little dip or peak here and there after 10khz.
sennheiser used DF but there own method. like how stax still believes in FF but their own method. there is only a couple headphones that followed a specific standard for studio use when it came to FF or DF use. for the he90 i can't say.
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That must have been a good moment. I would like to confront Beyer's "engineers" with a pair of empty T1 cups. There are a number of people in the ortho thread, and on this forum that would have made a much better headphone given their resources.
This is Beyer after all, they discontinued the ET-1000 because it was too expensive to make and said the DT880 was "just as good". Certainly better for their profit margin though...
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DF doesn't imply a midbass boost at all. DF usually tend to keep the midbass to low-bass flat while slowly diving down to the sub-bass. FF is suppose to emulate speakers in a dead room so basically there would be slight 2db increase around 100hz to try to add weight to the kick and from around 50hz and under have slight boost to allow the headphone to give that sensational rumble from the lower octave(s). biggest difference between DF and FF is response past 10khz. lot DF headphones will have slight couple db dip at 10khz and rise around with tad peak from 14khz till around 18khz and take dive around 20khz so the headphone will provide that ''airy'' sound.
FF tends to peak 10khz a db or so and doesn't exhibit that much of a peak from 14khz and above so it will not be too airy and so forth. usually free-field tries to stay flat or takes little dip or peak here and there after 10khz.
sennheiser used DF but there own method. like how stax still believes in FF but their own method. there is only a couple headphones that followed a specific standard for studio use when it came to FF or DF use. for the he90 i can't say.
This, just had a glance to compare my Senn chart to Max's and it says DF right on it. Forgot where I had seeen it. :)p2
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I don't understand how Sennheiser can tune a driver this perfectly and then turn around and tune the HD800 the way it's tuned.
The HD800 is the most technically beautiful headphone I've ever seen, so why did they ruin the neutrality by tuning it like like there's a hard shelf EQ boosting all the high frequencies by 3dB? Sennheiser obviously knows what they're doing, and the HE90 proves it.
Perhaps those who tuned the drivers had HF hearing loss and compensated for it. :-\
There are, of course, arguments that they tuned it to a certain psychoacoustic curve, but perhaps they chose poorly. It sounds just like the uncompensated frequency curve. Maybe we don't understand how headphone drivers should be tuned yet.
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Simply different design goals. If you listen to extremely well recorded music w/ proper gear that isn't anemic or inherently bright it's quite fine tbh.
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Just chipping in; you will find that the direction from which a sound is coming is of less significance the longer the wavelength (for speed v, the lower the frequency). In other words; the low and even midbass should be about flat for any reasonable equalisation curve, possibly with the exception of paying upwards to your crotch from between your knees. Similarly, this means that treble is much more affected by where the sound is coming from, because of the shorter wavelength.
Actually the HE90 is much closer to DF. Here's an old Headroom graph of the HE90 and they normalize to DF.
While emailing Tyll my suggestions for improving his measurements (including several compensations being one of them) he told me that he actually uses ID.
ID looks pretty similar to DF though
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Don't Tyll and HeadRoom use different compensation?
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I thought part of the deal when Tyll left Headroom was that he'd still provide their graphs - it would be odd if he offered different compensation for their graphs than his.
I also hope he's compensated for offering that service.
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I thought part of the deal when Tyll left Headroom was that he'd still provide their graphs - it would be odd if he offered different compensation for their graphs than his.
I also hope he's compensated for offering that service.
It certainly looks like the perceived hearing compensations between his InnerFidelity graphs and the Headroom graphs are very different though, it would make sense if you think about it. He wants the Headroom graphs to emphasize more distinct FR features of different headphones so potential customers, even those with minimal understanding of audio measurements, could discern something. Also a much greater degree of FR curve smoothing is imposed on the Headroom graphs, for the same purpose I'd think.
If this assumption is true, then the IF graphs are more accurate.
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I do still measure headphones for HeadRoom.
I decided long before moving over to InnerFidelity that the 50 and 500Hz square waves were too short, and the DF HRTF wasn't as correct as the ID HRTF. But since all the data in the HeadRoom database was taken at these settings you really can't just change horses mid-stream. You'd have to remeasure all the cans.
So when I started measuring for InnerFidelity I made the changes.
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BTW Tyll,
The only picture I saw of your dummy head had funny shaped ears (like realistic molds) yet you reference a standard dummy head for which the pics I have seen show a simplified ear geometry. Which is it really in your rig?
I am asking that because I have been playing with simulation of ear shape / impedance effects on headphone measurements and it's rather significant above a few kHz. As such, beyond using a DF or FF or ID equalization, what matters the most is that this target curve corresponds to your actual measuring apparatus.
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Just found this site....amazing work purrin.
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Just drooled on my keyboard.
+1
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"everybody can say they'd heard the Orpheus ;) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scExtoMB4FA"
I just did, and it sounded just like my HD600 through an Asus Xonar STX card.
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We just got confirmation that Sennheiser will bring a working unit to the London Head-Fi meet... so I'll get to hear one again. I'm looking forward to it.
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Just chipping in; you will find that the direction from which a sound is coming is of less significance the longer the wavelength (for speed v, the lower the frequency). In other words; the low and even midbass should be about flat for any reasonable equalisation curve, possibly with the exception of paying upwards to your crotch from between your knees--What is meant by this?. Similarly, this means that treble is much more affected by where the sound is coming from, because of the shorter wavelength.
Actually the HE90 is much closer to DF. Here's an old Headroom graph of the HE90 and they normalize to DF.