CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: Bill-p on December 30, 2014, 07:53:17 PM
-
BASELINE MEASUREMENT HERE: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2025.msg57297.html#msg57297 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2025.msg57297.html#msg57297)
Bill-P Measurements: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2025.msg61402.html#msg61402
Well, I have a crazy idea... and it may not work, but what the hey.
So what I'm thinking is that if someone is willing to do this, please send your HE-560 in for Marv to measure, then after Marv is done measuring that pair, he'll send it off to me for modding (and I'll document the modding process, of course). After that, I'll send it back to him for another bout of measurement before the headphone gets sent back to its poor owner.
This way we'll have the same sample for consistent measurements, and since my mod was audibly different from stock (at least to me), I suspect it'll be interesting to see on a graph...
The mod is fully reversible, of course. Save for the ear pads... so you may have to purchase another pair of ear pads ($39) if you'd like to go back to complete stock.
Disclaimer: credits to Jerg for his mods. I followed some of his ideas, and then deviated some to create mine, so if you see any similarity afterward, that's why. p:/
-
Reserved for photos and instructions (if needing more space).
-
If you and Marv are down with this plan then I have an HE-560 lying around. Go hog wild with it.
-
I'm up for it - at least to get proper deltas. Bill-Ps mod was not bright or shrill at all.
-
Cool, I'll have it out to you by early next week.
Bill - best of luck! :)p4
-
That's great. Thanks, guys!
I hope I can fix the bass "bloat" issue that Marv heard. A part of it was my DAC/amp chain, but the headphone was at fault somewhat, too.
It wasn't as tight as the Code-X, though the Code-X was somewhat brighter.
-
That's great. Thanks, guys!
I hope I can fix the bass "bloat" issue that Marv heard. A part of it was my DAC/amp chain, but the headphone was at fault somewhat, too.
It wasn't as tight as the Code-X, though the Code-X was somewhat brighter.
Bloat thing was probably power limitations from your amp and the Neko DAC. Pretty much went away after you chucked the Neko and replaced it with the Sonic Frontiers TransDAC, which is a pretty fantastic DAC BTW.
-
Bill, do you want to borrow my Klone and Code-X for the process and for comparison?
If you ever sell that transDAC, I want to get my hands on it :). The TransDAC > Klone would probably be sublime.
-
Bloat thing was probably power limitations from your amp and the Neko DAC. Pretty much went away after you chucked the Neko and replaced it with the Sonic Frontiers TransDAC, which is a pretty fantastic DAC BTW.
Well, I must admit, the TransDAC is surprisingly good after pairing with the Ciunas + Wyrd. I was using the Gamma2 and some generic SPDIF converter before, and it sounded "just okay".
And you're right. It's audibly better than both the Gamma2 and Neko as far as bass is concerned.
Bill, do you want to borrow my Klone and Code-X for the process and for comparison?
If you ever sell that transDAC, I want to get my hands on it :). The TransDAC > Klone would probably be sublime.
If you're willing to lend me those, I'd be very grateful. I kind of liked the control and depth of the Code-X.
I didn't try the Klone though, so it would be wonderful if I could have the chance now.
And yeah, will definitely let you know. TransDAC is indeed a surprisingly good DAC. I was thinking it was neck to neck with the Neko before, but after slotting Ciunas into my chain, there was no comparison. It's lacking details and refinements as opposed to Yggy, but hey... :p
-
What is a code-x? Is it a modded HE-560?
-
it's a modded HE-5 from LFF. There are only a few floating out in the wild but it's a hell of a headphone.
-
Cool. If you are in SF bay area, please PM me with cost and details.
I have a pair of these on order and thinking about mods, but want to listen to stock first.
-
Well, if you are in SF Bay Area yourself, I wouldn't mind meeting up once you get your stock pair so that you can listen to the modded pair and determine whether you'd like to mod yours or not.
I can also perform the mod on the spot (it really takes just a few minutes), and it won't cost you a penny.
-
Well, if you are in SF Bay Area yourself, I wouldn't mind meeting up once you get your stock pair so that you can listen to the modded pair and determine whether you'd like to mod yours or not.
I can also perform the mod on the spot (it really takes just a few minutes), and it won't cost you a penny.
Hey Bill I am also in the Bay Area I have a pair of stock as well is that offer still open?
-
Well, if you are in SF Bay Area yourself, I wouldn't mind meeting up once you get your stock pair so that you can listen to the modded pair and determine whether you'd like to mod yours or not.
I can also perform the mod on the spot (it really takes just a few minutes), and it won't cost you a penny.
hello,
its offers like this that make this community so wonderful. :money:
-
Hey Bill I am also in the Bay Area I have a pair of stock as well is that offer still open?
It sure is. In fact, it seems like you just missed out on last week's mini meet... and on the Ragnarok/Yggdrasil!
We can try to bring together another one soon-ish.
I merely opened this thread so that I can get some help putting together a guide, and gaining some more understanding.
hello,
its offers like this that make this community so wonderful. :money:
Haha, well, I'm hoping the extra bass gained from the mod will bash some pirate heads in! :)p1
Honestly, though, it's a nice ship place indeed.
-
Well, if you are in SF Bay Area yourself, I wouldn't mind meeting up once you get your stock pair so that you can listen to the modded pair and determine whether you'd like to mod yours or not.
I can also perform the mod on the spot (it really takes just a few minutes), and it won't cost you a penny.
I live in Berkeley and also in Shanghai. Will let you know when I get the cans and will arrange a meetup. Happy to provide the refreshments.
-
I live in Berkeley and also in Shanghai. Will let you know when I get the cans and will arrange a meetup. Happy to provide the refreshments.
Hey I'm not too far from you, I am in SF and Jinhua (a few hr from Shanghai), about 6 mo each out of the yr.
-
Hmm... so breaking the seal on the pads (from the dousble sided tape) increases the bass quantity?
-
I live in Berkeley and also in Shanghai. Will let you know when I get the cans and will arrange a meetup. Happy to provide the refreshments.
Great! Please let me know.
I have a friend in Boulder Creek who can probably host this mini meet if he's free one of these days...
Hmm... so breaking the seal on the pads (from the dousble sided tape) increases the bass quantity?
Yeah, pretty much. Same thing as the Abyss.
Direct comparison with LCD-3, stock HE-560 and stock HE-6 would show that this one has significantly more bass output.
-
Hey Bill-p, was that you in the HE-560 thread on HF?
I guess you preferred the 560 to Enigma in the end, even in stock form?
-
Yep, I try to keep the same identity anywhere I am.
And yeah, I do prefer the HE-560 over a lot of headphones. When I first heard it, I immediately knew it was for me, and the other issues seemed minor at the time. However, they proved to be more... annoying over long term listening, so I set out and tried a few things. Jerg's mods got the closest to fixing my qualms, but still not quite, hence... this one came about. In a nutshell, it really is just a tweak of Jerg's mods.
-
Hey I'm not too far from you, I am in SF and Jinhua (a few hr from Shanghai), about 6 mo each out of the yr.
Cool. Another trans-Pacific audio lover !
-
Looking forward to the instructions (and more people's impressions) then!
-
Slight change of plan. Will send both my headphone and the modded pair in to Marv to measure, and see whichever one he prefers. Since the new mod is easily just one extra strip of dynamat and shelf-liner material in the back + Focus Pads A, I think the two mods are pretty much interchangeable.
I have just tried a different version of the mod that allows the stock grills to be used (gives more protection, makes the headphone more durable, etc...) along with Focus Pads A (more comfort, better highs), and I prefer this to whatever version I used at the last meet. Better soundstaging, better depth, better clarity, better comfort, somewhat tighter and more controlled bass (due to less air thanks to stock grill), and also better protection.
Quick and dirty (healthy salt advised, wait for Marv's final measurements!) difference recorded by my iPhone:
Last version (the one at the meet):
(http://s13.postimg.org/65f59jrrr/image2.png)
The new mod:
(http://s14.postimg.org/hgu7h0g9d/image1.png)
Will write instructions for both versions, of course. I think the second mod is closer to stock HE-560 sound, but smoother thanks to Focus Pads A, and made "airier" due to magic mumbo jumbo.
-
That's a pretty severe roll-off to start at 125hz.
-
It's the iPhone's microphone's limitations. So don't take anything below that seriously. It does that with every headphone and speaker that I have tried to measure.
(and hence why I'd like Marv to measure...)
-
Hey, an update - it took longer than I thought to ship it out. Marv should be getting it on Monday.
-
Oh, no problem at all. I have been absorbed into modding the Sony Z7, and I think I'm getting good results. Won't be posting a guide for that one because modding it is very tedious, but if Marv would like to measure my pair, I'd be happy to send it along with my HE-560.
-
Sure. I'll get a baseline of 'todes HE-560. This is what I am supposed to do right? Sorry, I get confused. So many things on my plate.
-
Ah, it's fine, guys. I'm not in a hurry.
Thanks for doing this, either way. I'd love to see the delta between the original and modded pair.
-
Any update on this, marvey?
-
Very soon. Possibly tonight. Busy season for my line of work right now.
-
Oh, okay. No worries, and no rush either. I just wanted to know where we are.
Thanks!
-
Pre-mod measurements - for a baseline. PM me your addy.
1st set (regular prod pads)
2nd set (focus-A pads)
Focus-A pads are definitely less bright.
It was been speculated that maybe the Focus-A pads are less bright because of distance to the ear. This turns out not to be true based on when the impulse response hits (graphs not pictured). Both prod and Focus-A pads maintain same distance to ear.
-
Damn, wonder if Hifiman more recently tuned their 560s to have 3-4more db in the mid-treble.
-
You noticed... could be some product variation, hence the differing opinions.
-
That could explain why I never cared for my production HE-560...
I liked Jason's pair at the last meet, but it was on a system I'm not familiar with.
No production HE-560 I heard could touch the pre-production I brought in May last year, though. YMMV.
-
That does make me wonder about the particular pair I tested...
-
Cool... Thanks, marv. I sent you my addy.
Will get these back to you in a few days and start writing the guide. The mod is actually fairly minimal.
Kind of interesting what's going on with the mid treble. I suspect that's related to the metal ear pad retaining ring... though I'm not sure the ring should make that much of a difference.
-
If all the recent 560s are tuned like this, I can definitely see why people consider these bright and even HD800-like. 3-4db extra at 9khz makes a noticeable difference, just like the extra 3-4db at 4khz the Focus Pads adds over the Focus-A.
-
Yeah, the Focus Pads A, IMO, are still best for the HE-560. Stock Focus Pads give a tighter sound due to more padding (better damping), but I'm guessing the perforated holes inside the ear pads are what's causing that peak at 4KHz.
Jerg originally perforated the ear pads on the HE-500 in order to lift its upper midrange, performance, which I think is appropriate, but the HE-560 has just a tad too much of an upper midrange emphasis at stock IMO.
-
I took that measurements with the stock pads. Did you want another one with the Focus-A pads before I ship out?
-
If you can, that'd be great, though I think I'll end up modding this HE-560 with the Focus Pads (not A) anyway, so if anything, it'll just be for delta purposes (to see whether the mod can address the shortcomings of the pads)?
-
Shipped. Updated baseline measurement post: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2025.msg57297.html#msg57297
-
Thanks, Marv. Will work on it over the weekend and send it back to you on Monday.
Focus Pads A measurements look very interesting! That drop at 4KHz is very substantial! Wow!
-
Shipped. Updated baseline measurement post: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2025.msg57297.html#msg57297
Yeah indeed a bit strange that the mid-treble region is elevated to such a degree, compared to older HE560s that were measured. Maybe newer HE560s got slightly retuned.
-
Yeah indeed a bit strange that the mid-treble region is elevated to such a degree, compared to older HE560s that were measured. Maybe newer HE560s got slightly retuned.
I just got an HE-560 two days ago. I don't have the tools to measure it, but it sounds like that graph with way too much at 4K and a little too much around 9K. Too bright for my ears. I've EQed it to make it tolerable for now. It will need modding for me to consider keeping it. I've heard other HE-560's and they didn't sound like this one. Unfortunate if all new ones are like this. Indicates that someone at HiFiMAN doesn't have good hearing.
And Focus-A pads go out of stock just as I get my HE-560... :)p18
-
I'd like to hear an earlier unit to see if it sounds different from the unit I heard. The one I heard was almost literally painful to listen to for my ears. I know the owner of that one was happy with it, though, so take my opinion FWIW.
-
I consider the brightness to be uncomfortable and unhealthy. I like to listen relatively loudly. 85dB or so, sometimes more for short stretches. At that level even a 4dB bump at 4K means my ears are getting nailed at over 90dB in that range. Yikes! So yeah, that 4K bump has to get tamed or the headphones have to go.
It would be interesting to get some more measurements of recent production HE-560's to find out if this is a new tuning for new production or just an anomaly. If the tuning has changed for current production then modding methods may have to adjust.
My goal for my HE-560 is to use them for classical music listening. My goals for any modding is to optimize for classical. I don't need to turn them into a dubstep headphone. I already have an LCD-2 r2 that can do that. I do like the more open sound of the HE-560. Its overall sound is something I think can work well for classical music. They're just going to need modding to lose that 4K bump and some of the extra brightness. I'm very optimistic that the mods will be able to do that to my satisfaction.
I did email HiFiMan about the Focus-A pads. They said production will go again in March. It's Chinese New Year now. Nothing is going to happen for the next two weeks. Hopefully we'll see new Focus-A pads available sometime in March.
-
I don't think I saw any HE-560's measurements that looked great to begin with... Yes, the earlier ones looked somewhat better but I would still take my modded HE-500 over these HE560s any day.
(http://jyxo.info/uploads/4E/4e9560f844e35ad126514b6fca59ce33b020523e.png)
-
I don't think I saw any HE-560's measurements that looked great to begin with... Yes, the earlier ones looked somewhat better but I would still take my modded HE-500 over these HE560s any day.
(http://jyxo.info/uploads/4E/4e9560f844e35ad126514b6fca59ce33b020523e.png)
I feel that HE560 with Focus-A pads and some additional tuning has a lovely tonal balance; more energetic than HE500s but equally close to neutral.
The crux of the issue for me is that HE500s are just lacklustre in terms of articulation: it is noticeably "slower"-sounding and even blurred next to HE560s. I'm talking both modded, of course.
-
Yes, HE-500 are kind of completely different from something like HD800s in terms of their approach to the technical side of headphone sound. The modded HE-500s I use represent what Audeze would love to sound like - close to neutral, with a very good soundstage and sense of openness but relaxed, smooth and with a very black background at the same time. Articulation is not the word I would use to describe them because it was never meant to be a technical monster. For me, it's just Audeze or HD600/HD650 sort of sound done right :-)
I personally admire both approaches (HE500 vs HD800) when done right. The problem is that rarely any headphones does it right (while being affordable enough). And I am not sure HE-560 are that great... Plenty of people like them, plenty of people don't like them. And all available measurements look rather mediocre honestly. It's kind of very polarising and confusing headphone/situation.
-
I feel that HE560 with Focus-A pads and some additional tuning has a lovely tonal balance; more energetic than HE500s but equally close to neutral.
The crux of the issue for me is that HE500s are just lacklustre in terms of articulation: it is noticeably "slower"-sounding and even blurred next to HE560s. I'm talking both modded, of course.
Yup.
Yup.
Tweaked HE-560 > tweaked HE-500.
-
Yes, HE-500 are kind of completely different from something like HD800s in terms of their approach to the technical side of headphone sound. The modded HE-500s I use represent what Audeze would love to sound like - close to neutral, with a very good soundstage and sense of openness but relaxed, smooth and with a very black background at the same time. Articulation is not the word I would use to describe them because it was never meant to be a technical monster. For me, it's just Audeze or HD600/HD650 sort of sound done right :-)
I personally admire both approaches (HE500 vs HD800) when done right. The problem is that rarely any headphones does it right (while being affordable enough). And I am not sure HE-560 are that great... Plenty of people like them, plenty of people don't like them. And all available measurements look rather mediocre honestly. It's kind of very polarising and confusing headphone/situation.
If the resulting SQ of my HE560s on my particular system sounds clean fast with good tone and prat, and just overall satisfies me, there is no incentive for me to care about strangers on the internet with different musical tastes, who dislike HE560s on different systems than mine and either stock or modded differently.
We are all quite a ways into this hobby now, no more brand fan-clubs and whatnot, it's all about personal pursuits of happiness at this point. :P
-
Yup.
Yup.
Tweaked HE-560 > tweaked HE-500.
Well, that depends on what sort of tweaks you are talking about, of course. Someone like you should already know that and don't make such silly general statements.
-
Sorry, tweaked HE-560 > HE-500.
You can tweak the HE-560 frequency response, but you cannot tweak the HE-500 to have a clearer, more articulate, and more resolving sound. Tweaks are just tweaks. They can incrementally improve the sound, sometimes even addressing showstopper frequency response issues. But tweaks can not improve the inherent capability of a driver.
Unless of course you are just talking about personal preferences where people may prefer the muddy one-note bass and slow, slightly veiled and grey presentation of the HE-500.
-
You can tweak the HE-560 frequency response, but you cannot tweak the HE-500 to have a clearer, more articulate, and more resolving sound.
Sorry, tweaked HE-560 > HE-500.
Well, I agree that HE-500 is never going to be a technical monster, as already said. That doesn't mean it cannot be a better headphone.
I am not sure if you are admin or not but could you have a look at the post I recently made: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2142.msg58776/topicseen.html#new. Thank you :-)
-
First of all, why did you go insane in the first place a few months ago by deleting all of your posts; and then come back just a few days ago - only to say now that you want to delete your account?
Secondly, why do you interject "My tweaked HE-500 is the bestest" in every other post of yours? You are going to get pushback if you pull off shit like that here. You don't see me going around Orpheus is the bestest in every other headphone thread or Yggy is the bestest in every other DAC thread.
Figure out what you want to do: stay or go. I don't have time for parenting. I was actually saddened the first time you left. I didn't know the exact reasons why. But you have to understand that under the circumstances, your actions lowered my patience threshold quite a bit.
-
A question for those who have modded the HE-560.
The Focus-A pads are out of stock and probably won't be back in stock for at least a month. Should I just put my HE-560 away for a month and wait for the Focus-A pads to get back in stock? Or should I get an extra set of regular Focus pads now and get busy with an exacto knife on them to experiment for a month? I've got plenty of other headphones and headphone toys to keep me busy experimenting with other things. I won't miss the new 560's for a month or two.
I don't want to be doing any mods yet that require taking things apart beyond just replacing the pads yet. I want to experiment with the Focus-A pads on the stock headphones before doing that. So any dis-assembly modding is going to wait till then.
-
I'd wait until Focus-A, but that's just my preference though. Seems quite a lot on Head-Fi like Focus as well. I value the warmer sound over any other 'benefit' the Focus pads bring.
-
I'd wait until Focus-A, but that's just my preference though. Seems quite a lot on Head-Fi like Focus as well. I value the warmer sound over any other 'benefit' the Focus pads bring.
That's the way I was thinking. Doesn't make a lot of sense to spend $40 on pads and cut them up only to probably discard them in a month when I get the Focus-A pads.
I consider the 560 nearly unlistenable in its current stock state with the stock Focus pads. Hopefully the Focus-A pads will get them more to my liking. And potential modding if necessary. Otherwise these headphones won't work for me.
-
My "minimal effort" mod for the 560 was simply two pieces of soft felt (maybe 0.5"x3" ?) arranged as an X in front of the driver.
-
Well, late at night. Absolute quiet... (aside from ringing in my ears)
First try at measuring. Thanks to OJneg for supplying me with some proper tools. Pillow as coupler for now until I build something more serious over the weekend...
Measured with Focus Pads (not A) using REW. Whatever they have as default, I simply just went with that. Frequency response change doesn't seem all that drastic. Distortions seem weird, so I might have screwed up somewhere. Probably a more proper coupler and some more noise isolation is required. However, CSD seems kinda in line with what Marv has...
Modded LCD-2 measurements added for perspective.
(http://s17.postimg.org/3wbu5f61n/Hifiman_HE_560.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3wbu5f61n/)
(http://s27.postimg.org/5cay461m7/Hifiman_HE_560_CSD.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5cay461m7/)
(http://s18.postimg.org/lmj16mm85/Audeze_LCD_2.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/lmj16mm85/)
(http://s12.postimg.org/y8s93gsy1/Audeze_LCD_2_CSD.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/y8s93gsy1/)
Comments, suggestions, advices, or "boo's" welcomed as I plan to learn more, and eventually be able to use measurements as a tool to aid me in future endeavors. :)p7
Anetode, sorry for keeping your HE-560 for so long, but I would like to try to get it closer to the modded LCD-2, which I regard as being close to "perfect". Subjectively, the LCD-2 is just that much better, though it could be bright to me sometimes (not as bad as HD800).
-
A question for those who have modded the HE-560.
The Focus-A pads are out of stock and probably won't be back in stock for at least a month. Should I just put my HE-560 away for a month and wait for the Focus-A pads to get back in stock? Or should I get an extra set of regular Focus pads now and get busy with an exacto knife on them to experiment for a month? I've got plenty of other headphones and headphone toys to keep me busy experimenting with other things. I won't miss the new 560's for a month or two.
I don't want to be doing any mods yet that require taking things apart beyond just replacing the pads yet. I want to experiment with the Focus-A pads on the stock headphones before doing that. So any dis-assembly modding is going to wait till then.
If you want to try to develop a good target response while you're still waiting for Focus-A, you could also try tuning them with some equalization in the areas where they're brightest. If you feel like yours sound similar to the measurements in this thread, then you'll have an idea where to start and can start subtracting a couple dB from problem areas to see if that corrects the problem for you.
You could further compare that to using Focus-A without EQ once they come in and compare it to any modifications you make afterward. That is, if you don't want to just put away the 560 for a month. If you have something good to listen to while you wait for the pads to come up again, then you can just listen to that.
-
Comments, suggestions, advices, or "boo's" welcomed as I plan to learn more, and eventually be able to use measurements as a tool to aid me in future endeavors. :)p7
Nice, it would be interesting to see your XB950 & ATH-ES10 results too!
-
Anetode, sorry for keeping your HE-560 for so long, but I would like to try to get it closer to the modded LCD-2, which I regard as being close to "perfect". Subjectively, the LCD-2 is just that much better, though it could be bright to me sometimes (not as bad as HD800).
Take your time, it looks like the 3-4khz region could still use some taming.
Dat LCD-2 graph tho headbang
-
Take your time, it looks like the 3-4khz region could still use some taming.
Dat LCD-2 graph tho headbang
The 3-4kHz region is specifically a Focus pad issue... AFAIK Marv already showed that with past measurements.
But yeah these aren't nearly as smooth of a FR trend as Audezes in the upper midrange, just the nature of the drivers I guess.
-
I know you still gotta build a coupler for your mic, but the LCD2's treble looks like it would hurt my ears if we were to ignore that and go off those graphs. :)
-
Yeah, dat LCD-2 indeed. :)p1
It does sound kinda bright, Hans. Not piercing or too much, but slightly bright. I'll see if I can eliminate that in the coming days. It'll probably be perfect after I smooth out that peak... but for now, I'm more concentrated on making the HE-560 more like that.
Also, the LCD-2 has a much lower noise floor than the HE-560 and Z7 from the rest of CSD (which I didn't show), which leads me to believe that this may be why it's more resolving than the other 2 headphones by a good margin.
Sony MDR-Z7 measurements not shown because I'd love to see Tyll's first and make sure I'm not going crazy.
-
The 3-4kHz region is specifically a Focus pad issue... AFAIK Marv already showed that with past measurements.
But yeah these aren't nearly as smooth of a FR trend as Audezes in the upper midrange, just the nature of the drivers I guess.
I've used both sets of pads and while one set slightly mitigates the bump, it's still rather noticeable.
-
If you want to try to develop a good target response while you're still waiting for Focus-A, you could also try tuning them with some equalization in the areas where they're brightest. If you feel like yours sound similar to the measurements in this thread, then you'll have an idea where to start and can start subtracting a couple dB from problem areas to see if that corrects the problem for you.
You could further compare that to using Focus-A without EQ once they come in and compare it to any modifications you make afterward. That is, if you don't want to just put away the 560 for a month. If you have something good to listen to while you wait for the pads to come up again, then you can just listen to that.
I've been playing with EQ to investigate what sort of EQ changes make the 560 sound better to me. I've been using the EasyQ parametric EQ plugin. It works, but has a tendency to harm the sound. Makes high-res no longer sound high-res. A clue that I need to try some different EQ plug-ins. So maybe I'll spend the month investigating some other parametric EQ plug-ins instead of thinking about the 560. EQing well is also difficult. I'd fail as a mastering engineer.
My goal is to get the 560 to sound good to me without needing any EQ. I'm curious to find out if the 560 will do the trick for me for classical music listening. My main headphone now is a LCD-2 rev2. It's not what I would consider a master of classical music.
-
Someone else should be sending me their HE-560 in the near future. Will be interesting to see how it compares to the other one I heard, if it differs much at all. He kindly gave me permission to try out some reversible mods on it, so I'll see if anything basic can make 'em sound better (to my ears).
-
I've been playing with EQ to investigate what sort of EQ changes make the 560 sound better to me. I've been using the EasyQ parametric EQ plugin. It works, but has a tendency to harm the sound. Makes high-res no longer sound high-res. A clue that I need to try some different EQ plug-ins. So maybe I'll spend the month investigating some other parametric EQ plug-ins instead of thinking about the 560. EQing well is also difficult. I'd fail as a mastering engineer.
My goal is to get the 560 to sound good to me without needing any EQ. I'm curious to find out if the 560 will do the trick for me for classical music listening. My main headphone now is a LCD-2 rev2. It's not what I would consider a master of classical music.
How large were the changes that you were making? I've been using the same equalizer in Foobar, and haven't felt that it's been degrading the sound very much.
Then again, I'm also not listening to high-res tracks, because I haven't heard much above 16-bit lossless that sounded much better to me. It would be interesting to get an album or two in high-res and play around with EQ some more to see if I could hear what you're hearing.
To be honest, I think the EQ helps it just enough that if I don't have money for the Focus-A pads till the next batch, I'm not too worried about what I'm missing out on. Maybe they could help even further, but EQ has already brought me to better sound and I feel comfortable stopping there for now.
-
How large were the changes that you were making? I've been using the same equalizer in Foobar, and haven't felt that it's been degrading the sound very much.
Then again, I'm also not listening to high-res tracks, because I haven't heard much above 16-bit lossless that sounded much better to me. It would be interesting to get an album or two in high-res and play around with EQ some more to see if I could hear what you're hearing.
To be honest, I think the EQ helps it just enough that if I don't have money for the Focus-A pads till the next batch, I'm not too worried about what I'm missing out on. Maybe they could help even further, but EQ has already brought me to better sound and I feel comfortable stopping there for now.
I avoid doing extreme EQ changes. Try to keep it as mild as possible. My current EQ for my 560 is a -3 dB 0.8 octave dip at 3400 Hz and a -0.8 dB 3 octave shelf for the rest of the treble. I'm not happy with that though.
The sound quality loss I hear is a loss of the envelope that is around the sound the room sound and some of the individual sounds (instruments). High-res seems to sometimes have an envelope like that that CD res seems to lack. It's subtle, and not always there. If you don't believe in high-res you'll probably never hear it. Believe in it and you just might. It's not a bat hearing ultrasonics hearing thing. The EQ sometimes loses that. I need to try some good linear phase parametric EQs and see if that makes a difference.
-
I avoid doing extreme EQ changes. Try to keep it as mild as possible. My current EQ for my 560 is a -3 dB 0.8 octave dip at 3400 Hz and a -0.8 dB 3 octave shelf for the rest of the treble. I'm not happy with that though.
The sound quality loss I hear is a loss of the envelope that is around the sound the room sound and some of the individual sounds (instruments). High-res seems to sometimes have an envelope like that that CD res seems to lack. It's subtle, and not always there. If you don't believe in high-res you'll probably never hear it. Believe in it and you just might. It's not a bat hearing ultrasonics hearing thing. The EQ sometimes loses that. I need to try some good linear phase parametric EQs and see if that makes a difference.
Maybe it has to do with how you're shelving almost all of the treble a little bit? I don't hear much to take exception with in the upper treble, past around 9 kHz or so, so I used two dips instead. Or it could be the equalizer itself, like you say. It's hard telling, without being able to hear exactly what you're hearing.
For reference, I'm using -3 dB, 0.5 octave at 4 kHz and -2.5 dB, 0.6 octaves at 8300 Hz. I chose that spot because I found 7-ish kHz to 9-ish kHz slightly bright and found that somewhere between was where it was the worst, so I just made a small, slightly broad dip there to try to reduce the whole region a bit.
I like the sound that they produce with these settings. It's a blunt tool, for sure, but I think that for a headphone that had a mostly agreeable tonal balance, a blunt tool may be all that's required to tune them appropriately, for some people. If you wouldn't mind, give it a try, and tell me what you think. It's possible you won't like these settings, either, but I'd like to know if your impressions change with a slightly different curve.
-
I'll try that. In general I've found that shelving has less damage to the sound than peaks/dips, even broad peaks/dips. So I tend to go with shelving rather than a broad peak/dip if a shelf seems to do what I'm after. At least with EasyQ.
-
I'll try that. In general I've found that shelving has less damage to the sound than peaks/dips, even broad peaks/dips. So I tend to go with shelving rather than a broad peak/dip if a shelf seems to do what I'm after. At least with EasyQ.
I'm looking forward to hearing your impressions. If you still find that it degrades the sound a bit, then I hope you find a better equalizer for the task.
-
Long time no update?
I'm still working on this, ya know. Since the 4KHz peak annoys people too much, and now Focus Pads A are out of stock, I've been looking for a solution, and... I think I'm close.
Anyway, attached a frequency response measurement comparison of some stuffs I've been trying. Unfortunately, it'll also drop bass and make the headphone slightly less warm as opposed to straight-up Focus Pads A, which is still 1.5dB better than what I'm trying to do, but hey... it's an improvement.
Applying the same thing to Focus Pads A but only in the form of back damping will further drop the 4KHz peak by another 1dB, but I don't think it's worth doing since it'll make the HE-560 too dark.
Note: ignore dip at 13KHz in the last measurement. I think... I bumped the mic or something.
And yeah, it's confirmed. Stock Focus Pads are really causing that 4KHz peak to become worse.
-
I got the Focus-A pads on Tuesday. Much better than the stock pads. At least I can listen to the headphones now without EQ. But the Focus-A pads don't bring me all joy. The HE-560 with the Focus-A pads still harshes my mellow. Not pleasant listening. Ear fatigue sets in quickly. So something is still not right with the sound. I'm not sure what exactly. Seems to sound like a little too much midrange still. Or something else. I'm not very good at zeroing in on and identifying theses sorts of problems by ear.
I'll keep listening to them to try to better identify what the problem(s) are to me. Then I'll have to think about whether I want to open them up to mod and try to fix those problems or give up and sell them.
-
EQ +3db 2khz and -3db 4khz with focus pads-a.
If that's still too harsh then get an Oppo.
-
I'm playing with EQ with the Focus-A pads. And it's helping.
Complicated though by the fact that the headphones are sensitive to how they're positioned over the ear and where the ear fits inside. Makes it difficult to get consistent evaluation of EQ changes when slight changes in ear cup position can overwhelm those EQing differences. My LCD-2r2 aren't so fussy. These headphones are turning into more of a PITA than I intended. But that's part of the fun and exploration.
-
Huh, that's quite interesting. Measurements at IF suggest that the headphones aren't very position sensitive at all and I've never noticed a very large differences in sound when changing the position of the cups relative to my ears.
I wonder why yours seems to be so sensitive to it. Any ideas?
-
Final set of measurements of the modded HE-560.
I've got photos... just need to write up some simple instructions. Since I'm a bit trapped for time now... what with preparing for CanJam and all, I'm not sure I can post it all today, but will try to shoot for this weekend for sure. Probably when I have time to relax at my own pace as CanJam takes place!
CSD is a lot cleaner than when I first got this headphone in. Left channel looks like it's still ringing, and that's because... well, it "rang" to begin with. Look at Marv's CSD and you can see a lot of ringing. Apparently, I think that's due to a particle or hair or something stuck to the conducting trace on the diaphragm, and it's grazing against the magnetic structure at higher excursions. There were some quality control issues with the early batch of HE-560, so this does not come as a surprise to me. I actually did open up my 2nd HE-560 and found there to be hair stuck to the trace, so I removed it with a tweezer (carefully, of course). I didn't attempt to open this pair up that far, since it's not my decision to make, and I'm sure Hifiman can take care of the user, etc... Sorry, anetode. I should have realized this when I saw Marv's CSD graphs. facepalm
In actual listening, I don't think I heard the ringing as such. Please note that measurement is done at 90dB, which is... way more than I'd listen to comfortably. If you're one of those folks who listen at 90dB... well, who knows? It may just bother you enough. At lower volumes and lower excursions, though, I think there is very little chance that this will annoy at high frequencies. At extremely low frequencies, though, that's a different matter altogether...
Anyway, other than that, 4KHz peak was push down as much as 6dB, due in no small part to some back damping. I reckon those who aren't bothered by this peak (using Focus A pads) and want the utmost clarity can ignore this part, so I will make sure to reflect that in the instructions in the front.
And that's it. Will post instructions as soon as I can. For now... gotta run. I must say... after modding it this far, this HE-560 has gotten quite close to the Code-X, which was my target response, so... I'm satisfied. :)p1 It's still somewhat more airy and with a bigger soundstage, of course.
-
Final set of measurements of the modded HE-560.
I've got photos... just need to write up some simple instructions. Since I'm a bit trapped for time now... what with preparing for CanJam and all, I'm not sure I can post it all today, but will try to shoot for this weekend for sure. Probably when I have time to relax at my own pace as CanJam takes place!
CSD is a lot cleaner than when I first got this headphone in. Left channel looks like it's still ringing, and that's because... well, it "rang" to begin with. Look at Marv's CSD and you can see a lot of ringing. Apparently, I think that's due to a particle or hair or something stuck to the conducting trace on the diaphragm, and it's grazing against the magnetic structure at higher excursions. There were some quality control issues with the early batch of HE-560, so this does not come as a surprise to me. I actually did open up my 2nd HE-560 and found there to be hair stuck to the trace, so I removed it with a tweezer (carefully, of course). I didn't attempt to open this pair up that far, since it's not my decision to make, and I'm sure Hifiman can take care of the user, etc... Sorry, anetode. I should have realized this when I saw Marv's CSD graphs. facepalm
In actual listening, I don't think I heard the ringing as such. Please note that measurement is done at 90dB, which is... way more than I'd listen to comfortably. If you're one of those folks who listen at 90dB... well, who knows? It may just bother you enough. At lower volumes and lower excursions, though, I think there is very little chance that this will annoy at high frequencies. At extremely low frequencies, though, that's a different matter altogether...
Anyway, other than that, 4KHz peak was push down as much as 6dB, due in no small part to some back damping. I reckon those who aren't bothered by this peak (using Focus A pads) and want the utmost clarity can ignore this part, so I will make sure to reflect that in the instructions in the front.
And that's it. Will post instructions as soon as I can. For now... gotta run. I must say... after modding it this far, this HE-560 has gotten quite close to the Code-X, which was my target response, so... I'm satisfied. :)p1 It's still somewhat more airy and with a bigger soundstage, of course.
Looks sick!
Do you have your baseline FR/CSD measurements for your HE560s in stock form in the same format? I can't find it and it's kind of hard to compare these measurements with Marv's baseline plots.
-
Can't remember if this is one you said you'd be able to send my way, but I'd love to hear and measure it if so.
Any chance you could get a relatively fresh HD600 or something really commonly measured, stock, so we can get a better baseline or point of reference for your measurements?
-
This one will be left with Marv after CanJam, actually. It's anetode's. Will send you the LCD-2 instead if you're interested. :)
And yeah, I can borrow CEE TEE's HD600 some time later.
jerg, I'll get that HE-560 stock measurement done tonight before sleep... as it's... game time tomorrow! I'll leave most of the cool headphones at Marv's table for folks to check.
Subjectively, this HE-560 is akin to a more open Code-X IMO. Code-X is probably a wee bit more resolving, but it ain't by much, and the HE-560 has bass that hits harder since my mod does intentionally break a bit of the seal... and you know as well as I do what "breaking the seal" means for single-sided planars. ;D
-
Definitely still interested in the LCD2.
-
Can't remember if this is one you said you'd be able to send my way, but I'd love to hear and measure it if so.
Any chance you could get a relatively fresh HD600 or something really commonly measured, stock, so we can get a better baseline or point of reference for your measurements?
Can't remember if this is one you said you'd be able to send my way, but I'd love to hear and measure it if so.
Any chance you could get a relatively fresh HD600 or something really commonly measured, stock, so we can get a better baseline or point of reference for your measurements?
I can get it back from Marv after CanJam finishes up, attach it to a tiny parachute and toss it out of the emergency exit while flying over the rockies. Oh, and add a GPS tracker so Hans can find it.
-
Any excuse to take a nice hike!
-
Before (top) and after (bottom) measurement of Bill-P mod.
-
Thanks for the graphs, Marv. :)p1
Surprisingly not as much change as I saw on my rig. 4KHz peak moved down to 3KHz, but that could very well have been positioning, so I'd say it's pretty much identical there. Perhaps I shouldn't have removed the cloth piece after all.
CSD shows more decay from 1KHz downward... probably due to my attempt to "clog up" the HE-560 to make it sound less thin.
Interestingly, distortions seem to have dropped. I couldn't measure that reliably, so it's good to see that it's lower even with my attempt to bring out decay. Hahaha.
Low-bass distortion is expected. I broke the seal to achieve a slightly airier sound. This normally would have only caused bass to drop, but the HE-560's unique magnetic structure causes it to get outta control, and thus the distortion. I thought about that from the Abyss' seal. Apparently, Abyss' bass also gets outta control and does the same thing when the seal is broken. But I like Abyss' bass without the seal, hence... this. :)
-
I wouldn't worry about distortion < 40Hz. Not as much musical information there as most people think. In other words, I'd be happier with a "fast" subwoofer that went down to 35-40Hz than a "slow" blobby subwoofer that went down to 10Hz.
-
To be honest, I have only understood the concept of "fast" bass recently, so that's why I wasn't able to incorporate any modifications toward that goal in the HE-560. I'm sure the HE-560 would have sounded very nice with even tighter bass.
-
Surprisingly not as much change as I saw on my rig.
I noticed that your measurements (on the previous page) have different scaling on the Y-axis, making the first graph look more like a roller coaster and the second graph look more flat. The overlay is probably not as different as these measurements make it look.
-
So it still has that 3-4KHz peak of death? :P
-
I noticed that your measurements (on the previous page) have different scaling on the Y-axis, making the first graph look more like a roller coaster and the second graph look more flat. The overlay is probably not as different as these measurements make it look.
Oh, I meant the 3-4KHz region. In my measurements, the stock one had much more of that.
So it still has that 3-4KHz peak of death? :P
Well, at least you don't have a peak at higher now, so it'll just sound slightly annoying rather than full-blown annoying and shrill. :P