CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on August 12, 2014, 12:51:27 AM
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Looks like an admin accidentally deleted the entire thread.
All I have to say is that the PM-2 is very good at comes at a good price. Don't feel like re-typing everything again. BTW, I think Oppo did a great job responding to the main criticisms leveled at the PM-1.
I'll get measurements up again later tonight.
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Here is R side of PM-2 with the Alternate PM-1 pads. "Alternate PM-1" pads is the official term. This is from Chris @Oppo.
As you can see FR is very good. Bass distortion in bass and mid to treble is good. Little area in lower mids upper bass where distortion is not good. Headphones sound exactly like that on the graph.
Subjectively speaking (I listened before measurements):
- PM-2 sound really good and are more open than PM-1. PM-1 sounded more veiled and less open to my ears.
- Stage is narrow, but realistic. Depth was good with EC 4-45 and AGD M7/OR5 setup.
- PM-1 is superior to HE-560 and LCD-2 in regards to tonal response with HE-560 being on the dry side and sometimes too shrill on vocals with the wrong amp. LCD-2 is too laid back with unsmooth treble - although most do not hear unsmooth treble. LCD-2 has the most massive bass power, but PM-2 is not far behind. HE-560 and LCD-2 seem more resolving and cleaner than PM-2.
- At $699, PM-2 is appropriately placed in pricing. Maybe even more so if you value tonal response over resolution and other technicalities.
More measurements due tonight.
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CSD PM-2 alt pads R
Very clean.
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OK. PM-2 measurements with stock pad.
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PM-2 measurements with Alternate pads.
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Thanks again for these. I'll have impressions and measurements to post once I get my pair in.
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Subjectively, I thought Alternate pads were slightly less bright and slightly more open; but measurements show otherwise. I'm pretty sure though that the developmental PM-2 pads I heard at the Bay Area meet were much brighter. Oppo has alluded that minor tweaks would be done to the PM-2 pads to bring them in line with the Alternate PM-1 pads.
Note that Alternate PM-1 pad is the official name according to Chris @ Oppo.
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fuck. I actually kind of like the PM-2.
(PC*->Loki->Mjolnir->PM-2)
* Using JRiver's PCM to DSD conversion.
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You should be ashamed of yourself for liking something.
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So n
fuck. I actually kind of like the PM-2.
(PC*->Loki->Mjolnir->PM-2)
* Using JRiver's PCM to DSD conversion.
Whats the story with the alternate pads and stock pads? Are both going to be included in the package? Which one do you prefer at this moment?
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You should be ashamed of yourself for liking something.
I am with Hans. I came here for some mindless reinforcement of my personal purchase decisions, and general support for my completely uninformed decision that "oppo makes overpriced crap," and here we get decent measurements and the dangerous, subjective "like".
I guess I will just have to keep "trying new things" and "don't be such an asshole" and "stop playing on that website, you are supposed to be working".
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So, with the right amp, HE-560 > PM-2?
(Except for tonality)
Man, if the secondhand 560 I'm waiting on doesn't do it for me I just might trade it out for a PM-2.
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So, with the right amp, HE-560 > PM-2?
(Except for tonality)
Man, if the secondhand 560 I'm waiting on doesn't do it for me I just might trade it out for a PM-2.
Try Jergpads on 560s if you hate the stock tonality. I've been listening to this combo recently and it's very exciting.
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I'll give a try with Focus-A first. Actually the seller's been waiting for Hifiman to ship him the Focus-A pads before selling it to me.
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I'll give a try with Focus-A first. Actually the seller's been waiting for Hifiman to ship him the Focus-A pads before selling it to me.
Eh. The difference between Focus and Focus-A pads are fairly small relative to how jergpads change the tonality.
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Whoa! I just took a look at the jergpad tutorial. That looks too complicated for me, so I guess if I wanted jergpads I'd have to contact Modulor. Still holding out hope for the Focus-A pads though. I was OK with the sound of a stock 560 out of WA7; I think that amp smoothed out the sound.
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Whoa! I just took a look at the jergpad tutorial. That looks too complicated for me, so I guess if I wanted jergpads I'd have to contact Modulor. Still holding out hope for the Focus-A pads though. I was OK with the sound of a stock 560 out of WA7; I think that amp smoothed out the sound.
Hm yeah you're probably right, this was a mod that was 1 year in the making/development, it got so many iterations and not just from me, but a few others i.e. modulor. I've been trying to let modulor know that he may wish to buy off a last batch of pleathers/velours from Hifiman before they discontinue those pads forever, hope he acknowledges.
I'm in the process of modding the HE560, IMO jergpads are essential for the "perfect" sound I'm personally seeking, so is regrilling mod, but there are 1 or two more mods that seem promising.
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Try Jergpads on 560s if you hate the stock tonality. I've been listening to this combo recently and it's very exciting.
How do the jergpads differ from the focuspads?
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As a guess, different internal material, different amount of venting on the bottom, no holes cut on side of pads (this still standard on jergpads?), possible side venting, and so on.
But pads don't make a lick of difference on a headphone's sound. ;)
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As a guess, different internal material, different amount of venting on the bottom, no holes cut on side of pads (this still standard on jergpads?), possible side venting, and so on.
But pads don't make a lick of difference on a headphone's sound. ;)
The ones I'm using are latest iteration of fully-loaded modulor's pads (open backvents, peripheral holes), with a couple more tweaks (dust screen gone, flattening down the front portion of the pads to increase angling further).
I think two critical things different here are 1) internal foam density, and 2) thickness / distance from ears to transducer.
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Got the PM-2 in and have been putting it through my normal tracks. Very early impressions (subject to change):
- Less warmth than PM-1, overall more neutral balance. Seems more in line with my HE-500, but overall more laid-back and less punchy (i.e. still a bit limpish). Good tonality.
- Marv was spot on about what he mentioned with the 8KHz peak. Not exaggerated, but gives a less pleasant, rougher sound than having one at, say, 10KHz. But it's not really a problem...just stands out a bit. I think Oppo could have and should have done a bit better here. I'm already working on basic front mods to smooth it out a bit, because stuff like this easily annoys me. (About to go to bed and am tired, which is when things like this really get to me.)
- Not nearly as constricting sounding in terms of air and soundstage. Still not a particularly open sounding headphone.
- Not the most clear across the spectrum headphones I've ever heard.
- Goddamn, this cable is microphonic. Scares me sometimes while listening.
VERY quick measurement attached. Was even too lazy to edit out the ugly window parts. Left channel, from left ear, ~90dB at 1KHz (playing 0dB signal). Full review and measurements to come in next day or two.
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awesome. I like. maybe put TP or cloth in front of PM-2 to reduce 8k peak?
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Whoa! I just took a look at the jergpad tutorial. That looks too complicated for me, so I guess if I wanted jergpads I'd have to contact Modulor. Still holding out hope for the Focus-A pads though. I was OK with the sound of a stock 560 out of WA7; I think that amp smoothed out the sound.
Hm yeah you're probably right, this was a mod that was 1 year in the making/development, it got so many iterations and not just from me, but a few others i.e. modulor. I've been trying to let modulor know that he may wish to buy off a last batch of pleathers/velours from Hifiman before they discontinue those pads forever, hope he acknowledges.
I'm in the process of modding the HE560, IMO jergpads are essential for the "perfect" sound I'm personally seeking, so is regrilling mod, but there are 1 or two more mods that seem promising.
Is Ryan still selling jergpads?
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Here's what I got. Please don't spread it around. I'll post something next week.
All four pads on a PM-2. Haven't done any listening yet.
(http://putts.smugmug.com/Innerfidelity/Misc/i-LkNq3pD/0/L/OppoPadCompare-L.jpg)
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Thanks Tyll.
Again guys, please don't spread it around at Tyll's request.
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Tyll when can we expect some 560 measurements?
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I'll do an update at the end of the month. They're too spiky on the initial edge for me.
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With focus pads or focus-a pads?
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Peak move to 10k on Tyll's measurements? Manufacturing variations or will HRTF turn that trough into a peak?
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Tyll,
apparently PM-2 has a different dampening on the back of the driver I suppose it would be nice to compare it to PM-1 with both original pads. Based on Marv's impressions alternate pad made for PM-1 suits PM-2 best and so I wander how it fits PM-1 itself assuming it has original dampening scheme?
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Big thanks to OJ for selling these to me at a great price when he could have gotten more from other locations! I hope to someday meet him in person and buy him a beer. :)p5 I've been looking forward to trying the PM-2, perhaps too much, after my experience with the PM-1. I found a lot to like about the PM-1, personally. I loved how laid-back and natural it sounded. Very relaxing and easy to sink into the music effortlessly. Unfortunately, it didn't have quite enough treble or overall detail for me, and the price simply didn't make sense. When I heard the PM-2 would be priced around $700 and later found out about the new pads that seemed to be getting some good feedback, I thought Oppo might have finally nailed it. Did they? Keep reading to find out (or, you know, don't, and wonder forever).
You can read my original PM-1 review and check out my initial set of measurements here: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1590.msg43635.html#msg43635 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1590.msg43635.html#msg43635)
Do note that I later revised my compensation curve (my current and "final" version) and posted some updated results here (use these for comparisons): http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1590.msg44503.html#msg44503 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1590.msg44503.html#msg44503)
Also, don't trust those harmonic distortion measurements on the PM-1 measurements. At the time, I thought ARTA was exporting distortion numbers incorrectly, but, being the dumbass I am, recently realized it was simply exporting them in a different way than I thought it was. Oops! Part of the learning experience, I guess, but I feel I am on rather solid ground now with my measurements. The distortion measurements for the PM-2 should match what I saw in ARTA!
Looks, Comfort, and Presentation
Anyone familiar with the PM-1 won't be surprised by what they get with the PM-2. Despite substituting out the metal for plastic and leather for pleather, I think you'd find it difficult to tell the difference unless, maybe, you had them side by side and/or were tapping them with your fingers. I like the style and looks. Comfort is OK, but they get heavy on top of the head within an hour or two. They seem like they might be lighter than the PM-1. Not bad overall. I might have posted more thoughts in my PM-1 review, and they'd apply here.
Presentation on the PM-2 isn't quite as great as with the PM-1. No wood boxes this time around, sadly. Instead, they come with a fabric, almost denim-like, carrying case. It's a bit small and fits them snugly, but it works and is pretty nice in the end, I guess. It's definitely more practical than a wooden box, but not nearly as pretty.
Sound
I've spent a lot of time lately with headphones like the HD600 (with some extra front and back damping) and the HE-500, and any comparisons I make with the PM-1 will be entirely based on memory. Immediately on the PM-2, I noticed a balance that seemed more in line with the HE-500 or HD600. In other words, the balance seems more neutral on the PM-2 out of the box than the PM-1. Balance up until ~2KHz or so seems to be pretty good. Bass has good extension and decent detail (not too muddy or bloated), but, much like the PM-1, doesn't have a ton of balls. You might almost mistake this for rolled-off bass, like I did originally with the PM-1, but I think it's just other subjective elements at play outside of pure frequency response that are influencing what I am hearing. Or maybe my ears suck. Couple the subjective bass characteristics with the treble performance and laid-back nature, which I'll talk more about later, the PM-2 is still a bit light-footed, ethereal, and...yes, a tiny bit limp-dick sounding (I know you were all waiting for it), but only noticeable if you compare it to similarly balanced/neutral-ish headphones that have subjectively bigger, more dangerous testicles. Sometimes I wish the PM-2 was simply more powerful sounding, though not necessarily brighter.
The PM-1 and PM-2 both share a certain lack of clarity, or, perhaps, a slightly grey vs. perfectly black sound. Slightly hazy. Don't get me wrong, as it is slight, and I noticed it seemed to vary from amp to amp. Could this be due to the slightly warm overall response? The depressed areas in the upper mids and treble? The harmonic distortion bump around 300-400Hz? I'm not sure exactly, but I'd imagine all of these play a role and, much like the bass performance, some of it is probably due to elements not captured by my measurements.
Despite what I just said, they are fairly fast and clean sounding in most areas and do an admirable job at resolving details given their relatively laid-back nature. Though, compared to the best headphones in this area, resolving abilities are probably just adequate for the price range. For some, this might be a big deal, but I'm less concerned about it.
I am very happy to report that these are not nearly as constricting or over-damped sounding as the PM-1, though it is still there to an extent. At the very least, you can visualize instruments and such to the front left and front right in the listening space, where as the PM-1 sounded like everything was wrapped directly over your ears.
Now, where the PM-2 was close to perfect for me but lacked detail and life, the PM-2 sometimes goes too far in attempting to correct these issues. After extended listening, it became apparent that the PM-2 has a somewhat raspy, rough, and edgy nature while still sounding a bit dark, laid-back, and yet neutral-ish. This seems contradictory, but I suspect it's entirely due to the narrow 8KHz peak relative to the surrounding areas. While different music and amps affect this somewhat, I found it apparent on about everything. While I don't think most will find it to be an issue, as it's not as if the peak extends above the average response, I find things like this to be horribly annoying and grating on my ears after time (or immediately).
In a sense, I think Oppo rushed the PM-2 and these new pads. I believe they could have and should have done better with a longer R&D period, and it would have been worth the wait. While the PM-2 improves on many areas over the PM-1, it lacks the same sort of finesse and cohesive sound. Too rough and raspy. The PM-1 bored me over time. The PM-2 annoys me over time, which is a much greater sin to my ears. Aside from this particularly troublesome treble area, I found the the PM-2 to retain many of the nice, smooth characteristics of the PM-1.
So, how do I feel about it overall? Equally mixed feelings trending towards positive over the PM-1. The PM-1 and PM-2 have both been "close, but not quite" headphones for me, and for opposite reasons at times. But, of course, I'm sure many of you have found me to have particular tastes and sensitive hearing in most regards. In which case, you're also probably aware I rarely stop at the stock headphone. I'm currently listening to the PM-2 with a basic front damping mod. This makes the overall tilt a bit darker up till around the 4KHz point and basically obliterates the 8KHz peak while retaining most of the other measurement characteristics above 4KHz. I've found it difficult in my early experiments to fix the treble problems without making them sound a touch too veiled overall, but if you are at all like me with tastes and hearing, you'll probably find this to be a vast improvement overall and a worthy compromise. I suspect most others will simply find it too veiled up top with my current tweak, but it remains to be seen if I can go further with internal mods. I will report more on this later. If you have any modding ideas to share with me, please let me know!
Measurements
As mentioned above, I believe I have fixed my idiocy (well, a small part of it), and the harmonic distortion results should match what I see in ARTA here. Measurements are attached as follows:
1. General frequency response
2. Left channel FR with harmonic distortion
3. Right, FR + HD
4. Left CSD
5. Right CSD
6. 4 "raw" measurements used to get left channel FR average, 2 taken from each ear
7. Right "Raw" measurements
The frequency response results do seem to indicate the PM-2 has less of a dark tilt than the PM-1, at least up until 2-3KHz or so. Fairly smooth. The large dip around 5KHz may be accurate, or it may be measurements taken from my right ear skewing the results. Hard to say, as they do have slight differences in shape and size, and I have an easier time penetrating my ear holes on the left ear with my dild...my in-ear mic doo-dad. :)p8 You can see in the raw measurements that the latter two of each channel show this dip, and those are from my right ear. Channel matching is good.
Regardless of that, the PM-2 has a clearly less even treble response than the PM-1. The 8KHz peak is narrower than the PM-1's 10KHz peak, less depressed relative to the rest of the response, and simply has a subjectively nastier characteristic and sound to it than a 10KHz peak (edgy/raspy/annoying vs. mostly a sense of extra detail).
Harmonic distortion looks good, though we again see the spike around 300-400Hz (roughly 3% THD). I don't think this is too problematic subjectively. D2 overall seems to average around 0.4-0.5% THD, if I calculated that correctly, though this could be a limitation of my setup (i.e. PM-2 might actually be or probably is better than this). I also made some recent audio device setting changes to how I take measurements in ARTA, and it might show D2 as a bit higher than before (still quite close, and same look overall). Anyway, aside from that spike, nothing to worry about in terms of harmonic distortion on the PM-2. It's up there with other good orthos and such.
CSDs are pretty clean. Not the best. I think the PM-1 was better, if not just slightly. Not worth worrying about either way.
Raw measurements show that the PM-2 is quite insensitive to placement and fit, which I think is a good thing. Again, my two ears sometimes produce different results like this, and it is evident here. That's why I average them in the end. I've posted details in other threads about how I do measurements, if you aren't familiar with my methods.
Conclusion, For Now
Since I seem to be pretty particular with my tastes and sensitivities, I bet most people wouldn't have much of an issue with the PM-2's treble like I do. And if that is the case, I think most will find the PM-2 to improve on the PM-1 in most ways: better balance, less suffocating, more air and detail, and so on. I still think it's a bit overpriced at $700 for the sound you get, but really pretty good overall. I'm just hesitant to say I like it a whole lot, much like the PM-1. Hmm.
If you are like me and have whiny, sensitive, baby ears, I suggest you keep tabs on my future PM-2 posts. Within the next day or two, I should have some early results on a front-damping configuration I've settled with for now. Later, I want to experiment with internal damping and mods to see if I can take the PM-2 even further. Edit: Also going to look into possible pad mods.
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This isn't the exact front damping mod config I've been listening to, but this is a sort of teaser as to what I'm currently getting from the PM-2. LCD-2, is that you? File name might be a hint what I tried here, haha. Still have some testing and listening to do on what I've got now, and if I end up liking it enough for what it is, I'll post full measurements. Again, this is only front damping mods, and super simple and reversible at that. I will eventually open the PM-2 and take a look there. (Do you think THD looks more accurate here or previously from my first, early PM-2 measurements posted, taking into account differences from the mod? This particular setting uses some mic sensitivity option that will spit out ARTA graphs at the ~90dB @ 1KHz I roughly calibrate at. I can always go back, but results are close either way.)
All four pads on a PM-2. Haven't done any listening yet.
Isn't this a cardinal sin, to measure before listening? walk the plank :P
EDIT/UPDATE: One thing I noticed was how the sound got a bit airier and more detailed if I slightly lifted the PM-2 off my ears, just a tiny bit. So, I decided to try reducing the clamp by stretching them out. I think I hear a positive difference, but what do measurements say? Attached those, and that is with my most recent tweak config.
I also noticed these stay in place rather well if you angle the cups, so you get less of a seal in the back. Does some interesting things to the soundstage for sure. Attached measurements of that as well. All were done rather quickly, but the PM-2 behaves well and is consistent in measurements. Good enough for now. Perhaps all I needed was a slight tweak and a lesser clamp! I know it seems like it might be a small thing, but this might have taken them up a notch...very good.
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One thing you can try is to jam a small shim(s) between the pads and baffle, a la Jerg pads. Takes away sub/low bass a few db, but adds more air and openness.
Yes, I heard the "softness" or what I assume you are referring to as "limp-dick" as well on portables, O2, etc. The more powerful "impactful" sounding amps like the Mjolnir and 4-45 did have a Viagra affect on the PM-2.
I didn't have any issues with the treble, at least not with the Alternate PM-1 pads.
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I was considering that. I'll see what I can do with this unique pad and mounting system. Amps do indeed help it sound more powerful. Like I said, I doubt most others would have issues with the treble. I've found I've just very, very picky and am easily annoyed with stuff like this. Seems I have become more and more sensitive over the years, which is odd.
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Pretty good review Hans, most of the points are quite correct.
One thing that stood out for me was your saying that treble spike is in level with overall FR while according to my measurements it is at least 3db higher and therefore combined with a dip right before it they do sound edgy, raspy, rough, whatever you prefer but I call it dirty treble. The immediate roll off after that spike only adds up to the feeling of treble sounding inadequately cheap. All of that was kind of veiled in PM-1 but PM-2 tuning just made it more apparent. As for their bass quality and extension I agree, balls need to grow and to me they are light footed by quite a bit and distortion spike does play a role there.
As for rushing PM-2 production, I feel with the sound they did all they could, meaning time just wasn't that much of a factor as they had more then half a year to tune. It took you what, couple of days of listening to come up with some mods and I can only imagine what you could do in a half a year using all of their test gear.
Overall in my opinion both PM-1 and PM-2 have different sets of flaws that keep them from playing in the first league and that's a shame because I know, they could.
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I didn't have any issues with the treble, at least not with the Alternate PM-1 pads.
His impressions sound like the original PM2 pads we heard at the Bay area meet. Annoying treble with disjointed overall signature.
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Pretty good review Hans, most of the points are quite correct.
One thing that stood out for me was your saying that treble spike is in level with overall FR while according to my measurements it is at least 3db higher and therefore combined with a dip right before it they do sound edgy, raspy, rough, whatever you prefer but I call it dirty treble. The immediate roll off after that spike only adds up to the feeling of treble sounding inadequately cheap. All of that was kind of veiled in PM-1 but PM-2 tuning just made it more apparent. As for their bass quality and extension I agree, balls need to grow and to me they are light footed by quite a bit and distortion spike does play a role there.
As for rushing PM-2 production, I feel with the sound they did all they could, meaning time just wasn't that much of a factor as they had more then half a year to tune. It took you what, couple of days of listening to come up with some mods and I can only imagine what you could do in a half a year using all of their test gear.
Overall in my opinion both PM-1 and PM-2 have different sets of flaws that keep them from playing in the first league and that's a shame because I know, they could.
Very interesting that you've measured that peak as higher than the average response. That very well could be more accurate and explain why I found it as bothersome as I did. I think your other points make a lot of sense as well.
I don't want to oversell my mods or my knowledge on the matter. There are a lot of people on this forum alone that know so much more about audio than I do and could surely whip up something better! Much of what I know I've picked up from others. What I've done with the PM-2 is about as simple as it gets...some open-cell foam in front of the driver, and I stretched them out for less clamp. They sit on my head rather lightly now, which makes a big difference in comfort and sound. That's about it! Which I suppose does make me wonder what some of these companies are doing in their R&D process, you know?
His impressions sound like the original PM2 pads we heard at the Bay area meet. Annoying treble with disjointed overall signature.
I didn't want to say this myself, but that was actually a thought I had. With all the iterations of the PM-2 pads, the thought that perhaps I received something that doesn't match the latest production run certainly crossed my mind.
Down the road, I hope to get some of the final alternate PM-1 pads for comparison.
I'm wondering what the PM-1 and 2 would have sounded like with better tuned, angled, thicker, velour pads.
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Not being truly content with the PM-2 in its stock configuration, I set out to see if I could tweak it at all for better subjective performance. Well, in truth, I mod about every headphone I buy in one way or another. I did a lot of rapid experimentation on the PM-2, mostly in regards to different materials rather than wildly different tweaks. For now, I wanted to stick with simple, cheap, reversible mods than only required one to go as far as removing the ear pads. I've settled on something that I think sounds pretty good and is certainly an improvement over the stock PM-2 to my ears.
For this post, I'll detail subjective impressions and provide measurements. Next post will have comparison measurements with the stock PM-2, for your convenience, and details plus pictures of the actual tweaks themselves.
Background
There were two main things I thought the PM-2 could further improve on (keeping in mind MY tastes), assuming one wanted to keep the overall characteristics and sound signature (not trying to make these into something they're not). First, the treble needed to be smoother and had a narrow, sharp peak at 8KHz. As you can see, purrin didn't have a problem with it, but I did. Product and pad variation could potentially play a role, as Anaxilus mentioned. Second, the PM-2 was still a bit veiled, constricting sounding, and lacked air.
Flattening out the 8KHz peak is rather easy. A number of various damping materials, including toilet paper, felt, and open-cell foam do the job. But you'll affect more of the sound than just that, and I found it a bit hard to implement any of these tweaks in front of the driver without veiling the sound too much. That said, a bit more veil to have smoother treble seemed a worthy compromise, at least, if you found the treble annoying like I did.
I also noticed that simply lifting the PM-2 off my ears a little bit brought a better sense of detail and air. This coupled quite well with basic front damping tweaks. So, I bent the headband, at the top and where it starts to meet the cups, in order to widen the space between the cups and dramatically reduce clamping pressure. They sit very lightly on my ears now, just enough to make a good seal without effort. This also improved comfort a lot, but they will slip off your head more easily. If you have a smaller head than I do, you may already be good to go here. I am, after all, taller than most at 6' 3". It generally follows I also tend to be proportionally bigger than most (am very skinny, but not a "small" person). Maybe. *shrug*
Sound
With my basic front damping tweaks and having reduced the clamp to a considerable degree, there is simply a clear improvement across the board on the PM-2 to my ears. A more natural and effortless sound. Less strain, and a bit blacker. Tonality and timbre seems good, if not ever so slightly rough or lean. Mids seem to be filled in a tiny bit, but still on the laid-back side. Treble sounds smoother, more detailed, and more airy. Soundstage has noticeably widened, and placement of elements has gone up a notch. Better separation. Excellent balance overall and a joy to listen to. If I could fix one or two things, I think the treble still has a slightly rough quality to it, and the bass could use a bit more power and weight. Bass has been reduced a bit with the clamping reduction, and it still retains their light-footed nature.
This is what the PM-1 and PM-2 should have been, to my ears, IMO, YMMV. I wonder how the PM-1 would have done if I had simply done the same clamping reduction tweak, as it had an overall smoother and better looking response. Just tilted to the dark side too much. Hmm...
Measurements
As you can see, the 8KHz peak is no more! Instead, we now have a broader, less subjectively troublesome peak at 10KHz. As I hear it, this is nicely balanced with the rest of the spectrum and greatly helps with giving a better sense of detail and air.
The dip around 5KHz is better filled out. Personally, I think my measurements from my left ear better captured how the PM-2 performs here. The first two "raw" measurements of the left channel, blue and green, are taken from my left ear and have less of a dip around 5KHz. In the case of the PM-2, I think the results from my left ear are a closer match to what I hear subjectively, and they do skew the averaged result in the end. Worth keeping in mind, though you may disagree subjectively if you hear the PM-2 yourself.
I did make one slight further tweak to my settings in ARTA for measurements, and I think that's accounting for most of the lower harmonic distortion you see here vs. the stock measurements. Stock should probably show THD results closer to this. However, it is my experience that front damping mods often help with reducing THD, so it's probably a mixture of both. Either way, aside from the known HD spike, you simply don't have to worry about distortion on the PM-2 regardless of what my measurements indicate. Simple as that.
CSDs still look good. A little better than stock in some ways, but it's close enough that it could just be measurement variation.
Listening to these as I write, and, again, a very good, natural sound. More details in next post.
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I used two specific materials for my tweaks. (BTW, this site is great if you want to experiment with a lot of different foam materials. Pretty cool seeing how they all affect the sound in different ways. I bought a bunch of random crap in bulk for cheap.)
White Poly Open-Cell Foam, 1/4" - http://www.foambymail.com/P/poly-foam.html (http://www.foambymail.com/P/poly-foam.html)
Charcoal Open-Cell Foam, 1/8" - http://www.foambymail.com/CF0-125LF/1-8-inch-charcoal-regular-foam.html (http://www.foambymail.com/CF0-125LF/1-8-inch-charcoal-regular-foam.html)
First, I cut a donut shape out of the white foam that would fit in the ear pad's bottom opening. The hole in the middle is cut for the driver's nipple-nub. Next, I cut a smaller circle out of the charcoal foam. I put this on top of the white donut's opening. This was then inserted into the bottom opening of the pad. I only took pictures of it on top of the driver itself so you could get a better idea what it looks like. Easier to put it in the pads when installing, plus it's cut to fit that anyway.
Then, I simply stretched out the headband and such to reduce clamp. They sit very lightly on my ears now but still seal perfectly. Done! The clamping tweak was what did it for me in the end. Otherwise, the damping mods, while the really smoothed the treble, were too subjectively veiled.
Clearly, this is super simple, cheap, easy to do, reversible, etc. etc. It's also pretty easy to make variations based on this to better suit one's personal tastes. Could someone else with more knowledge and better materials come up with a greater mod? I have no doubt. Still, I'm really enjoying them with these simple tweaks. I'm not even sure it will be worth tinkering with the insides at this point.
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It looks like a Paradox now.
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I used two specific materials for my tweaks. (BTW, this site is great if you want to experiment with a lot of different foam materials. Pretty cool seeing how they all affect the sound in different ways. I bought a bunch of random crap in bulk for cheap.)
It's quite interesting that you managed to shift the treble resonance from 8 to 10kHz. As if it was related to the diameter of the aperture in front of the driver? Looks like fun experimenting in any case, esp. since you can objectively quantify level of alteration!
Arnaud
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Hans, I assume you like the change. Shift from 8k to 10k with dip more filled?
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Yup, really dig how they sound now. Some impressions in the post above the tweak pics if you missed em. And, as mentioned, I think the left ear measurement (raw 1 and 2) better represent what I hear on the PM-2 at up until around just before the 10KHz area. Slightly smoother transition, bit more filled in at 5KHz than what the averaged results show in the end.
One downside to stretching them out is that they no longer fit in the carrying case. :( Haha, oh well.
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For completeness, wanted to post quick measurements (just a couple samples, left channel, left ear, too lazy to crop out window) of the PM-2 with just a widened headband. No front damping materials. Forgot to change the scale on one of them.
This is very interesting and sounds better than I expected. Haven't done a back-to-back comparison, but it may be better than with front damping. I got so caught up in smoothing out the 8KHz peak and rough treble characteristic while dealing with the "stock clamp" that I forgot to see how they sounded just with less clamp. Well, here we go. Not bad at all, actually. Bass might be a bit tighter and visceral this way...most likely going crazy the past few days and need to give headphones a rest. I will say the PM-2 is rather ballsy from my Sansui 5000A and sounds better than the PM-1 for some reason in this regard. These seem to like power like all other orthos I've tried and sound a bit weaker from my Leckerton (a bit weaker than the HD600 on the Leck.).
Still a bit on the rough side from a subjective standpoint, but well balanced and not at all annoying like I remember the stock clamp being. Perhaps this explains some of the differences I heard originally vs. purrin. I seem to notice I complain more about clamp and headphone pressure than others, so maybe I do indeed have a larger head, thus resulting in some of the subjective differences.
Soon, we will need to include full head measurements before getting into meaningful discussions about what we hear. :)p12 :)p13
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Everyone knows about the controversy regarding the sound of OPPO sets, especially the PM-1. I had a chance to listen and measure 6 different sets of OPPO headphones and came to an interesting conclusion regarding their quality and sales/marketing tactics.
Here is how it all started:
OPPO had launched their PM1 set in Singapore with a lot of noise and fanfare. One of the things that stood out for me was the twin female models who were supposed to represent perfect matching of their planar drivers. Great idea, especially if it tells the truth, right?
By that time I only measured two PM1 sets, and of course none of the drivers matched perfectly so I thought oh well, probably just my bad luck. Both sets sounded unsatisfactory, I started modding and forgot about the initial measurements for a while, up until I got a hold of one of their reference units. Wow, what a different story it was. This happened well before the release of PM2 and all the alternative pads. Reference set sounded and measured waaay better and my impressions of its sound all of a sudden started to correlate with those from Tyll.
This should have rang a bell for me back then but I let it slip....again. Then PM-2 came out, I purchased two sets, all the drivers measured different but I know how it is with planars, cute twins at the presentation is one thing and production reality is another, so I just kept on modding.
Revelation came when I was given a chance to play with a set from Darin. He made arrangements with OPPOs management for a set of PM-2 to demo his "Out of your head" software. What a surprise it was, both his drivers measured almost identical and much better then all of mine. Finally I decided to put two and two together; the twins and graphs at the Singapore presentation, all the raving reviews, reference set that I was given a chance to listen/measure, Darin's PM-2, Tyll's PM-1 and finally Purr1n's PM-2 that for whatever reason they would not give him at the LA meet but had to send from headquarters the very next day.... .
Well, maybe the whole thing is just my imagination but I personally have never met one single person who liked OPPOs as much as all the reviewers did and I am talking about many people I met for the first time, who's opinion should not have been biased and who were just regular attendees at multiple events I have visited since official release of these headphones.
Driver variation or a marketing strategy, what do you pirates think? walk the plank
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I do wonder if the PM-1 have gone through silent revisions. Sennheiser did the same thing with the HD-650.
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I do wonder if the PM-1 have gone through silent revisions. Sennheiser did the same thing with the HD-650.
600s too. N sold me his newer revision and has an older one now. I prefer the newer, personally.
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I wander the same thing but who is going to buy PM1 now since PM2 is out, probably we will never find out facepalm
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Cute twins and shiny wooden boxes. Sounds like hi-fi audio shenanigans.
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For anyone that might be interested, I posted my full, lengthy review of the PM-2 at HF finally: http://www.head-fi.org/products/oppo-pm-2/reviews/11555
The info itself isn't new...maybe a couple things here and there, such as the brief ZMFxVibro comparison and measurements (full review of that coming here soon). It's just more fleshed out and better compiled and organized than what I've posted so far.
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For anyone that might be interested, I posted my full, lengthy review of the PM-2 at HF finally: http://www.head-fi.org/products/oppo-pm-2/reviews/11555
The info itself isn't new...maybe a couple things here and there, such as the brief ZMFxVibro comparison and measurements (full review of that coming here soon). It's just more fleshed out and better compiled and organized than what I've posted so far.
Been patiently waiting for your review Hans. Going to head over to HF and read it now.
edit: just read the review Hans. Very detailed and helpful. Thanks.
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Got the PM-2s. Not bad at all actually. Sort of closed sounding but IMO actually a little better than the PM-1s. They are close though.
So here are some measures of the PM-2s.
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1720.0;attach=7755;image)
Distortion Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1720.0;attach=7757;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1720.0;attach=7759;image)
CSD Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1720.0;attach=7761;image)
CSD Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1720.0;attach=7763;image)
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Impedance PM-2:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1720.0;attach=7773;image)
Comparo with Sachu's PM-1s (right driver)
PM-1 yellow, PM-2 red.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1720.0;attach=7767;image)
Distortion PM-1 (right)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1720.0;attach=7769;image)
Distortion PM-2 (right)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1720.0;attach=7771;image)
Perhaps a little more distortion on the PM-1, but seems to be around the same frequency area.
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Awesome, UB! :)p7
Looks like the PM-2 is a little cleaner in the distortion department while the PM-1 is a little cleaner in the CSD department. Clearly you are spending a lot of money for the extra leather and metal accents.
Did you use the PM-1 pads for these measurements?
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Dunno. They had some leathery pads with little holes on the sides... They are off to Colgin.
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They are the alternate pads. Not sure if TP was involved or not.
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Dunno. They had some leathery pads with little holes on the sides... They are off to Colgin.
Thanks for sending along, Ultrabike. I should receive early next week. I don't have measuring equipment but will post my subjective impressions after I have had time to give them a good listen.
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I wander the same thing but who is going to buy PM1 now since PM2 is out, probably we will never find out facepalm
and the pm3 is coming out too. hmm wonder how that will sound
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UB, you sure you're getting a good seal on these (or maybe it's comp curve related)? I know the PM-1/2 aren't too dependent on seal, but they will have a bass roll-off like that if they have enough leakage.
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I think this has come up before with a particular set of modified PM-1s (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1590.msg42785.html#msg42785).
I would interpret these measurements relative to other similarly measured cans. They are not IMO absolute. But yes, I think the HD600s might have a little more bass. These are not bass lite IMO though.
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It's a typical planar lack of midbass. Although the Oppos sound even more midbass light than some other planars. All you hear is extension, no ballz. Plus they have no punch or upper bass impact making it even more boring in the low end. Zero slam, bumpity or punch. /yawn
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Now that I have passed along the Oppo PM-2 in the loaner program to the next person on the list, I thought I should finally get around to giving some brief impressions. The PM-2 had been on my serious consideration list for purchase, so the loaner was very helpful in making an actual decision as opposed to just being a "it would be nice to hear these" exercise.
I am told that the cans in the loaner program have the PM-1 Alt pads, rather than the stock PM-2 pads. When the Oppos arrived, I unfortunately did not have access to my Marantz amp in the living room. So, I just plugged them into my Iphone in my bedroom and started running through my test tracks which consists mostly of rock (classic and "alternative"), jazz and other instrumental, but not too much electronica or classical. Ordinarily I would not pass any judgment on a headphone at this price point based on how it runs off of a portable, but since Oppo clearly markets these as being super-efficient and many at Head-Fi had claimed they heard no difference on the PM-1 amped versus unamped, it did not seem unfair to start making some initial impressions, particularly since, in my case, one of the selling points was the purported efficiency of the PM-2 (in the same way that aside from sound quality, the Audeze LCD-X has more appeal to me than the LCD-2 or LCD-3 since in a pinch you can run them off of a portable and IMO get pretty decent sound).
Initially, I was a bit underwhelmed. At this price pint I was looking for some "wow" factor and did not hear it. Nothing sounded bad per se, but nothing stood out. A lot of other TOTL/reference cans have some aspect of their sound signature that really stand out and grab you, at least upon an initial listen -- HD800 (soundstage and detail); Stax (clarity and naturalness); Audeze (deep bass extension and impact). (The flip side of "wow" factor is that you might over time realize something is out of balance or less than neutral or gimmicky or simply fatiguing.) With the PM-2 I couldn't find any particular faults, but I also initially could not find anything notable or exemplary. The soundstage had been so downplayed in what I had read and my expectations so lowered that I was somewhat pleasantly surprised that it was pretty decent and I absolutely feel that they sound like open cans and not closed as I have read elsewhere; just not the most open sounding cans. The bass extension was excellent but I felt it was lacking punch or slam (I always get those two confused, but there was not the sense of impact that I get from a well-amped Audeze). Given that the PM-2 seemed technically quite competent to me, I could not figure out why they seemed a little boring. Then some phrases from this site came to mind "lacking ballz" and "limp-dicked" or something to that effect. And I thought to myself, they are lacking "ballz" a bit if you will. Of course, it didn't help that I was also doing compare and contrast at that time with my treble-happy AKG and Grados there instead of just listening to music and trying to evaluate the PM-2 on its own for what it is.
The first day or so I was pretty disappointed since I wanted to like the PM-2 so much as they hit all the other marks for me in terms of looks, comfort (simply one of the most comfortable headphones I have ever worn notwithstanding that they are still significantly heavier than my AKG or a Senn HD600/650, for example). But I decided to take some more time with the PM-2 and just listen to albums and not run test tracks and do quick comparisons with other phones. And I found that I started really enjoying their sound. I still thought they could be a bit "soft", but I started enjoying their virtues -- they are reasonably detailed, it is just less apparent than on a treble-happy can; the bass extension obviously kills my AKG and IMO cans like the 600/650; signature is completely non-fatiguing; soundstage is good and realistic if not terribly wide; the timbre of instruments seemed really correct and natural to me. For example, I realized I loved the sound of drums on the PM-2. Yes, the Audeze had more impact, but to me the PM-2 presentation sounded much more like real drums. The best part is that I could get this good sound without being near my main rig, which necessitated running a long cable from my living room couch to my amp on the other side of the room. I could get it out of an Ipad or an Iphone in my bedroom and not need anything else. I could also walk around my apartment with this comfortably on my head or lounge on my side while reading the paper or my tablet. In contrast, I doubt I could do that with an Audeze. I am also really lazy. Even unpacking my AKG Q701 from its giant Casebuddi XXL case and attaching the 20 foot cable is sometimes too much work for me when I am tired and it is nearing midnight. And just not worth the effort to set up if I can only catch just 15-20 minutes of music before bedtime. But the ease of use of the Oppo meant that I found myself listening to them pretty much every night. I could set up and get good sound so quickly that there was never an excuse not to. If I was too lazy to set up my AKGs many a night, I suspect it would be even worse with something like a super-heavy Audeze. I know these factors may be completely inapplicable to many here, but they meant a lot to me.
While I did do a lot of listening simply through my phone, I also did finally spend some time using my amp. My humble Marantz integrated is decent but surely cannot compete with the likes of the amps typically discussed here. But I did find that while the PM-2 did not scale massively, the punch in the bass that I thought was lacking and perhaps making the PM-2s a bit boring at times, was there quite a bit more when driven by an amp. It may not have had quite the punch of an Audeze, but amping the PM-2, while not necessarily taking them to reference level, definitely improved them in the bass department and to some extent in terms of soundstage as well. Overall, I no longer felt that these were boring (limp-dicked/lacking ballz) when amped, although they still maintained there overall laid-back sound signature.
Tyll has referred to the PM-1/PM-2 as quality lifestyle phones, but not reference level. OJNeg has a great description here which I think is along the same lines in that they consistently give good sound without a lot of fuss needed. These types of descriptions were kind of turn offs for me. In my mind, I had been looking for more of a reference level sound and was hoping the PM-2 could perhaps provide that, but in a friendlier package. However, I realized that maybe these other factors were ultimately more important to me than achieving reference level sound (whatever that means), so long as I did, in fact. think the sound was very good. And ultimately that is the conclusion I came to. The PM-2 with PM-1 alt pads had very good sound, but not necessarily reference level, and were really easy to get along with. Before passing them along, I did get to a dealer to give one last listen to the LCD-2 and LCD-X with some of my music. I felt that both Audezes were probably a bit better than the PM-2, but not miles better when the PM-2 was amped (as opposed to unamped where it could sound too soft, whereas to me the LCD-X does not sound soft off of even my phone, just less refined in all respects). Moreover, I realized that the Audezes were just too painful given that they clamp on my TMJ and I suffer from TMJ pain. I have always gotten along OK with Audezes but never really listened to them for more than 10 minutes at a time. I strongly suspect that if I had bought them I could maybe suffer through 30 minutes before they became too uncomfortable. I believe that I could wear the PM-2 for hours at a time (not that I ever really listen to cans for such long periods).
I also considered the HD600 or 650 as cheaper alternatives. I actually find the PM-2 more comfortable than the 600/650, but it is close. IME, while the 600/650 can be driven off of portables, they are not nearly their best and really need/deserve to be amped. I really do like the ability to be able to drive the PM-2 off my phone, although I do intend to use an amp whenever possible. Also, I think the low bass quality is better on the PM-2 than the Senns. While, the PM-2 loses on soundstage to both Senns, I don't mind that tradeoff, particularly since I have my Q701 for when soundstage is important (when I am in the mood for classical, for exampe, those are what I will go to).
As my loaner period drew to a close I already found myself missing the PM-2. So, as soon as I shipped to Thujone I went to the Oppo site and ordered a pair, which should be here tomorrow or Thursday. I did not order the PM-1 Alt pads. I figured I would see how I liked the stock pads, and to the extent that they are lacking either sonically or in terms of comfort I will then order the PM-1 Alt pads. Whether the PM-2 is the right can for someone I think will depend a lot on how important some of these "lifestyle" factors are compared to just getting the best sound for the money or the best sound regardless of cost. For me, they are an overall very attractive package. And I do believe they are a very good sounding can without any glaring faults.
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Colgin,
so no interest or patience for 60 days and waiting out for the PM-3 to perhaps save some coin and hear different voicing?
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Colgin,
so no interest or patience for 60 days and waiting out for the PM-3 to perhaps save some coin and hear different voicing?
No, not really. I would love to hear the PM-3 when they come out and I hope they are good. But for home use I am only interested in open headphones. If I were open to closed cans I would have already bought some iteration of Mr. Speakers' Mad Dogs or Alpha Dogs by now as I like them. (In fact I would buy the ADs over the Audeze LCD-XC, price aside.) But I just vastly prefer open cans and only buy closed cans for portable.
As for portables, I am extremely happy with my V-Moda M-80. It handles everything I throw at it very well. I have tried almost all of the newer portables, including the ones touted as surpassing the V-Moda, but to my taste I still like the V-Moda the best. It is possible that the PM-3 will just knock it out of the park in terms of portables and then I suppose I would consider it as an upgrade to my V-Moda. However, the V-Moda are pretty indestructible and I use the with some degree of recklessness and they have held up amazingly well. I tend to think I would not be able to do the same with the PM-3 but that remains to be seen.
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Hi Colgin
Thanks for your impressions and perspective which I think brings up some really interesting points regarding how and when we use equipment.
I realise after many years that convenience can play an important part in how often and when we use equipment. I now find I am using my Cowon X7 and Etymotic ER4S more often than my main setup even though in sound quality terms it isn't as good, this is down to listening more when in bed and sat in the conservatory. I accept that this isn't the case for everyone.
Now realise I need a DAP with improved sound quality but still with equalizer as per Cowon.
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IME, the OPPO planars have a lot of potential but are held back by their enclosure and damping scheme. Even basic mod changes seem to bring them to life, primarily by boosting the bass and, to a smaller extent, the treble.
I prefer the velour pads by far on the OPPO planars, but you may disagree. They certainly work best on my PM-2 mods...
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So, Fed Ex showed up a day early with my PM-2 yesterday. In retrospect I should have ordered these before I had to send along the loaner pair so I could compare and contrast the stock pads with the PM-1 Alt Pads. At least on certain tracks (such as from the latest Arctic Monkeys album AM), the treble did seem a little more harsh or strident, but not necessarily brighter, than what I recall from the PM-2 with the PM-1 Alt Pads. But this could have been just expectation bias as I had been expecting that as a possibility based on what I read from others. On some jazz recordings I listened to and on some early albums by The Band, I did not notice any real differences from my memory of the same on the loaner pair. But I would say any difference is still pretty subtle, but may be there. Comfort on the stock pads are pretty good, but you can tell they are not real leather. I am not particularly a leather fan, but I would say the Alt 1 pads were marginally more comfortable than the stock PM-2.
At $30 I would have probably bought the Alt pads right out of the gate to have consistency with what I had been listening to before. At almost $60 I thought I should give stock pads a chance for a few days to a week. Would love to give the original leathers a try as Tyll said those were his favorite on the PM-2, but at $60 a pop (and non-returnable) I am not going to buy a bunch to experiment, particularly because I doubt I would pad-roll based on musical choices, but rather would just settle on my overall favorite.
Anyway, I was happy these arrived although with all the talk of the AKG K7xx part of me kind of wished I waited until those dropped. I suspect they will be at a price point that I may just trade up from my Q701 if there is enough of an improvement as the PM-2 is not going to replace my use of the Q701 but rather complement it (time will tell which I end up using more).
Also, I would be interested in any recommendations for amps that would go well with the PM-2 but that should also play nice with the AKG. Interested in suggestions under $500 and then between $500 - $1,000. Above that is probably not happening right now, although the rRag is very tempting as I can use it as a speaker amp as well and thus justify the greater expenditure.
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Yeah, what measurements I've seen and thoughts I've read regarding pad differences makes me think the stock PM-2 pads are probably the weakest ones out of the bunch. Hopefully you can get your hands on some velour ones to try as well at some point.
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Yeah, what measurements I've seen and thoughts I've read regarding pad differences makes me think the stock PM-2 pads are probably the weakest ones out of the bunch. Hopefully you can get your hands on some velour ones to try as well at some point.
The velour ones are cheaper; I think like $30. So, maybe if I end up getting the leather Alt pads I will just throw in another $30 to have the velours as well. But I cannot see spending for two sets of leather pads.