CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: Mullet on December 05, 2014, 05:24:11 AM
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Figured since I sort mentioned it in the good full sized closed phones thread...
So after getting frustrated with glare and the Alpha Primes and then subsequently changing dots and doggie pads and what not. I'm going through more material to see what their their deal is. Listening to Phish's Junta in 24/192 through my Curryman ES9023 DIY DAC and EHHA Rev A, separation between instruments is pretty top notch. It's kind of ethereal in a way. And yes you do hear gobs of detail. Nothing is muddied. Bass is nice and deep and textured. Imaging is working for me. Not compressed at all. However, I almost feel like the timbre of instruments sound slightly plasticky or something. I can't quite describe it. And yes if you hit certain peaks in loudness that's where I hear the glare... like in piano notes, or some vocals. It appears to be recording dependent though. Listening Porcupines Voyage 34, the dude's vocals have the pronounced SsSsSizzle. I get sucked out of the music every time. If it was attenuated by 3dB then these headphones would be 95% there rather than 90%.
I'm sure there are others who have heard the primes in action. I'm curious what others thoughts are.
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I'm sure it will be addressed in the next several revisions.
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Could it be mids distortion (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1739.msg46401.html#msg46401)?
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It's that brittle 3D printed material. Klack klack klack - gives it a hard / glaring sound similar to HD800 6k peak, except effect is worse on the Alpha Dogs. Damping dots, felt, etc. that material tends to effect on 8-11kHz area the most - hence they won't address the issue.
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It's that brittle 3D printed material. Klack klack klack - gives it a hard / glaring sound similar to HD800 6k peak, except effect is worse on the Alpha Dogs.
Materials science FTW.
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Oh MIE Gwad... Am I looking at the seeds for Alpha Dog version 35321.76542 :P
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Mullet, thank you for actually saying something about the Prime's glare. I couldn't get past it when I heard them at the NY head-fi meet. bozebuttons kept pushing me to give them a listen and I did. I regretted my decision.
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Oh MIE Gwad...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9J5tYShNY8
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I've been curious to try them, just not gonna spend any money on 'em or go seeking tours for them. But if someone ever wants to send me a pair, I'll offer my thoughts...
Not sure if the damping config on the front side is the same as on the AD (I see that the "treats" are still in use), but I was able to get the AD sounding more natural with a different front damping config. But it's still held back by internal damping and cup/baffle materials.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9J5tYShNY8
LOL, perfect use of Jojo right there!!!
Is it me, or does it seem like every T50RP mod, no matter how good, still has a tad bit of treble roughness and/or "rubberiness"? Even on the Paradox Slant I noticed just a tad bit of treble roughness, but nothing deal-breaking at all. Still seems like the Mrspeakers T50RP mods still have too much harshness which is sad...
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You're not imagining it. We've noticed that timbral quality as well with various implementations ( to various extents) of the driver
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The Mad Dog variations are a little more natural sounding. The Prime isn't bad and it's pricing is understandable when you look at the parts/machinery/design costs, but it's not a good value in the context of today's market.
Edit: disclaimer that I've only heard the Alphas, not the Primes, nor the Alpha + stickers. Generalizing a bit about the design.
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I've noticed, at least for the 3 pairs of Alpha Primes I've seen, that Dan removed the oval shaped pad that he previously had from the Alpha Dogs and is just using the BMF dots to attenuate the treble.
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There are two dots - one in center and one located in the front corner of each channel. At least that's what mine are "tuned" with. All I can say is my ADs never had the glare. I don't think my ears automagically got better at hearing. I'm curious if there are variations then. On the "other" site, everyone is raving about them. I was in the upgrade test group and no one else seems to be on the same page. Besides myself, I think one other person mentioned it occurring at times. Just for reference, I've been playing around with SPL levels with an app on my iPhone6. I'm sticking the phone in the alpha pad to see where it might become an issue. With a peak of 96 dB with Phish's Reba at the 8 minute mark there's a sustained guitar note. At that peak you hear it. I think the average is around 82-85dB for a bit then goes to 87-90dB as the song progresses. So there is a good amount of dynamic range for a rock song. In both of these ranges things aren't so edgy and are enjoyable. I think its when you get above 92dB or so when the ugly head comes out. With my old hearing I tend to like things on the louder side, otherwise details go blurred, missing, etc. Am I expecting these to perform well at a higher SPL?
I'll play around with the dots a bit to see if I can take the bite away.
Update: So I changed out the DAC. I was using an ES9023 based DIY DAC, the Curryman ES9023. I changed it to the AMB Gamma-2 and there is a worlds of a difference. So thus far I'm finding this headphone is very revealing of source. I've heard others mention glare with the ES9023, so this must be half the issue of sorts. Glare + Glare = Bleeding ears. Comparing it to the warmer Gamma-2, it has what I'd call hyper-detail with less bass. Guess I'll have to stick with the Gamma-2 to maintain listening enjoyment. Anywho, with other phones the Curryman isn't a problem and sounds pretty damn good.
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I had a chance to listen to the Alpha Prime. Seemed more bassy than the Alphas. Just over the cusp of annoyingly too much bass. I dunno, maybe the screw was loose? The very good thing is that hard glare of the original Alpha seems to have been corrected. Unfortunately, there is now some occasional vocal shrillness or shoutyness to some tracks. Narrow bump somewhere. Hard to say because I didn't run through my suite of test tracks, but used whatever was on hand that I was familiar with.
If Changstarians want this sort of sound and want to spend this much, I'd recommend the Enigma, which is also bassy, but sounds better integrated, more cohesive, and have a more expansive stage.
For Head-Fi'ers who are not Changstarians, I highly recommend the Alpha Prime.
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Yeah, I'd agree with Marv. I heard the same pair on my own setup, with my own music, so...
I thought there was a bit of extra sub bass emphasis, where it could get a bit loose. What was weird was that it was bassy, and yet not very full or impactful. Bass sounded a bit hollow, and not necessarily fast, either. So there was a lot of rumble, but I don't think it was up to my standard of ortho bass.
The Prime wasn't a very warm headphone either. It sounded a bit scooped out in the lower mids. Mid sounded pretty uneven to my ears, and like Marv, I also noticed a bit of upper midrange hardness/shout, though it wasn't necessarily sibilant.
There was a tightness to the sound from top to bottom, not unlike the HD800, but I think the HD800 was smoother on my setup, whereas the Alpha Prime sounded a bit gritty, grainy, like sandpaper...? Also it sounded a bit thin to my ears. I would have preferred a bit more fullness, and warmth.
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After the look on Marv's face, I didn't even listen to the Prime. From the folks who compared them, the slants and Enigmas were much preferred at our recent meet and are both cheaper.
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I liked the Slants. Didn't listen to your pair, but Jeff's pair of Slants was very very good.
Your Enigma, on the other hand, was very comfy. Stretching the headband made a world of difference!
I might just consider an Enigma as a closed traveling headphone, since I'm planning to go overseas again this summer, and I honestly can't see myself subjecting the HE-560 to dust and humidity... but the Enigma looks like it'll last a nuclear blast.
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Wow, more bass than the AD? Unless my prior AD pair just had more bass than normal (possible), that would be...a lot of bass.
I only heard one Enigma with one type of ear pads, but it struck me as having a different sound sig than anything from MrSpeakers. Perhaps there is more for me to hear of them, as what I heard sounded too different from the AD for me to recommend it as an alternative. At the very least, I could easily recommend the Paradox or Slants.
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I went ahead and found a coworker with another pair of alpha primes. We did a quick and dirty comparison, even his pair sound strange in the bass and have wonky mids. He liked the slants a lot, enigmas not as much.
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I think Marv should measure a pair at this point to really see what it's all about. Here are more details of what I actually heard with the headphone (I tried multiple tracks on my setup to make sure it wasn't just me):
1) The bass sounded like there was a lot of rumble, but the rumbling sounded thin and lifeless... and not like vibrations either. I could "hear" it, but not "feel" it. It almost sounded like something was loose inside. There was not much frequency extension either, as I strained to cop a "feel" in "Murder Style" by Datsik & Prototype... It just couldn't reach that low, or if it did, it didn't have much force so it was practically inaudible for me.
2) Similarly, there was not enough impact, or any at all. On tracks that would otherwise cause headaches like Radiohead's Little By Little (Caribou Remix), I couldn't feel the thump although it was audible, and fairly tight. It sounded overdamped.
3) Low mid was also forcibly absent. I couldn't hear the resonance of the guitar in Eric Clapton's Tears in Heaven. Strings sounded floaty, and a bit ethereal. Similarly, vocals lacked "grunt" and sounded thin. Clapton almost sounded like he hadn't hit puberty yet...
4) 1-4KHz sounded okay-ish, although a bit uneven.
5) 5-7KHz definitely has a peak somewhere. I don't think I'm just imagining it either. The slight shrill that I heard with the stock HE-560 is definitely present here. Clapton's voice in Tears in Heaven was harsh and grainy.
6) Above that it sounded okay, but the weird bass and mid stood out for me.
In contrast, the Enigma sounded more well-integrated IMO. Solid bass, definitely enough low mid (or probably a bit north of neutral), smooth midrange, no shrill, and only very slight tendency to sound sibilant at 7-10KHz, likely because of a peak somewhere that is meant to "sharpen" certain instruments.
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The pair from the meet is on it's way back to Dan.
I can submit it to Marv for measurements if he's okay with that.
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Copy & Paste from the impressions thread:
I think Marv should measure a pair at this point to really see what it's all about. Here are more details of what I actually heard with the headphone (I tried multiple tracks on my setup to make sure it wasn't just me):
1) The bass sounded like there was a lot of rumble, but the rumbling sounded thin and lifeless... and not like vibrations either. I could "hear" it, but not "feel" it. It almost sounded like something was loose inside. There was not much frequency extension either, as I strained to cop a "feel" in "Murder Style" by Datsik & Prototype... It just couldn't reach that low, or if it did, it didn't have much force so it was practically inaudible for me.
2) Similarly, there was not enough impact, or any at all. On tracks that would otherwise cause headaches like Radiohead's Little By Little (Caribou Remix), I couldn't feel the thump although it was audible, and fairly tight. It sounded overdamped.
3) Low mid was also forcibly absent. I couldn't hear the resonance of the guitar in Eric Clapton's Tears in Heaven. Strings sounded floaty, and a bit ethereal. Similarly, vocals lacked "grunt" and sounded thin. Clapton almost sounded like he hadn't hit puberty yet...
4) 1-4KHz sounded okay-ish, although a bit uneven.
5) 5-7KHz definitely has a peak somewhere. I don't think I'm just imagining it either. The slight shrill that I heard with the stock HE-560 is definitely present here. Clapton's voice in Tears in Heaven was harsh and grainy.
6) Above that it sounded okay, but the weird bass and mid stood out for me.
In contrast, the Enigma sounded more well-integrated IMO. Solid bass, definitely enough low mid (or probably a bit north of neutral), smooth midrange, no shrill, and only very slight tendency to sound sibilant at 7-10KHz, likely because of a peak somewhere that is meant to "sharpen" certain instruments.
Alpha Dog sounded better if my memory is still reliable. I'm guessing (not sure) that what Dan did was he took the membrane and moved it slightly further away from the magnetic structure... likely using felt or foam for the extra padding. This would account for the lower sensitivity (I just noticed he put 90dB/mW in the specifications on his website, yikes!), and probably count as a good attempt to modify the drivers in order to make a better sound.
But I may just be talking out of my arse...
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Greatio.
I think it would be worth it to see some measurements on this one... if for nothing but just to see why the bass was that weird.
I dunno, maybe it'll turn out to be better after Dan takes a look at it.
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I did notice the sensitivity was poor, i.e. had to turn the volume up quite a bit. Could be why the bass quality went down - more power needed / more distortion for equivalent SPL. I dunno, all talking out of my ass unless I get one in for measurements.
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I call tentative bullshit. After all the stuff I've seen from Dan in the wild, I suspect the "I think there's a problem with that pair" was just an attempt to save face.
He had the big whine at the SF Bay meet about his entry in the "guess the frequency" contest, he learned how to measure from Marv, and he's pulled all kinds of random shit in the past.
Most of the people buying his gear are looking for "great budget closed cans" then move up the upgrade chain.
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I think up to the Alpha Dog, his offerings are relatively great budget closed cans.
But the Alpha Prime is probably not up to the same standards... especially when it has to compete with the $1K bracket.
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The Mad Dog is a pretty good deal overall, though I like it much more with front damping mods. Upper treble can get a bit tizzy or hot, at least on my pair, but front damping tames that fairly easily if you have baby ears like me. I've kept mine around for a while now because it's solid and fairly inexpensive. Just no real reason to get rid of it (plus the girlfriend likes it). The Alpha Dog needed the "doggy treats" to be OK, IMO, but I always felt you were paying more for the looks, enclosure, build, etc. than you were for better sound. Again, AD has some hidden potential with really basic front damping mods.
I would like to get my hands on a Prime for subjective and objective testing, but I won't be buying a pair myself. So if anyone wants to send me a pair...
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I gave up on the "Dogs"... so many updates, and stuff like that just got to me and decided to sell my ADs. So I had the Mad Dogs, the ADs and when I learned of the Primes, I thought: "meh!". There's just so much you can do with those same drivers... I would have preferred a new design with maybe different drivers.
Anyway, I enjoyed both headphones and liked the ADs very much even though it had its "issues". But unless the Primes go down (way down) in price, I don't think I'll try them. I guess that since nothing really makes it stand out against the 'normal' Alpha Dogs, I don't see why the mega jump in price... (I don't care what magic are being done to the drivers, it shouldn't be $300/$400+ increase! :p)
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I did notice the sensitivity was poor, i.e. had to turn the volume up quite a bit. Could be why the bass quality went down - more power needed / more distortion for equivalent SPL. I dunno, all talking out of my ass unless I get one in for measurements.
So the Alpha Prime's from the mini-meet have been repaired. According to Dan, they were "catastrophically wrong", and were still in a prototype phase of the Prime mods.
You still interested in measuring these Marv? I can get these shipped out to you this weekend and perhaps start a tour for anybody interested. I'll create a post in the Loaner section if there is interest.
Still not my cup of tea. I can't decide what exactly about the tonality of the Alpha Primes that I'm not liking. I just keep reaching for the HD800 and Paradox Slants over and over again.
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Uhh, why was a customer sold a pair with a prototype phase of the mods that was "catastrophically wrong"?
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Uhh, why was a customer sold a pair with a prototype phase of the mods that was "catastrophically wrong"?
LOL, no idea. He was just as confused as to why it happened.
That said, Dan is a nice guy, and I'm sure it was not intentional.
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Yes. Will send you my addy tonight
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LOL, no idea. He was just as confused as to why it happened.
That said, Dan is a nice guy, and I'm sure it was not intentional.
Honestly, I've seen this kind of thing too often. I'm guessing revisions are rolling these days and the numerical numbering system has been thrown out?
Dan seems to have an excuse for every negative impression of any of his cans on HF.
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I call tentative bullshit. After all the stuff I've seen from Dan in the wild, I suspect the "I think there's a problem with that pair" was just an attempt to save face.
He had the big whine at the SF Bay meet about his entry in the "guess the frequency" contest, he learned how to measure from Marv, and he's pulled all kinds of random shit in the past.
So the Alpha Prime's from the mini-meet have been repaired. According to Dan, they were "catastrophically wrong", and were still in a prototype phase of the Prime mods.
Mmmm yummy ironic humor
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As a Mad Dog owner who didn't really like the Alpha Dogs, the Alpha Primes sound pretty good. I actually think they have more in common tonality-wise with the former rather than the latter, which is odd. They're not as dark as the MD but they still have the natural sounding mids which were so sadly absent on the Alphas (IMO). I'm not sure they're worth >$1000, though.
What I'm also wondering is how they compare to the ZmF Vibro / Blackwoods. I know the signatures are supposed to be different but the Blackwoods at least are supposed to be quite linear, which makes me wonder if they'd be a better high-end closed option than the Primes.
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What I'm also wondering is how they compare to the ZmF Vibro / Blackwoods. I know the signatures are supposed to be different but the Blackwoods at least are supposed to be quite linear, which makes me wonder if they'd be a better high-end closed option than the Primes.
Blackwood is more linear than Vibro, but I wouldn't say it's a neutral headphone: it's consistent with the warm and smooth ZMF house sound. I haven't heard A-Prime yet, but I'll have the opportunity at Axpona.
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Blackwood is more linear than Vibro, but I wouldn't say it's a neutral headphone: it's consistent with the warm and smooth ZMF house sound. I haven't heard A-Prime yet, but I'll have the opportunity at Axpona.
Good to know, thanks. So I should be thinking more along the lines of, say, the HD650 or HE500 rather than the HD600 or Mad Dogs?
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Good to know, thanks. So I should be thinking more along the lines of, say, the HD650 or HE500 rather than the HD600 or Mad Dogs?
Precisely.
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One driver's dead, my Primes are headed back...
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One driver's dead, my Primes are headed back...
Funny, one side of my HD800 keeps dying too.
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It's interesting that these are already being discontinued with the price lowered to $799.00.
Makes me wonder why Dan bothered to put this model out in the first place.
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It's interesting that these are already being discontinued with the price lowered to $799.00.
Makes me wonder why Dan bothered to put this model out in the first place.
Presumably because Fostex is coming out with a new revision of the T50RP and he'd rather design new headphone than rework his mods.
It kinda makes me wonder if he's got a sample of the new T50RP and has confirmed that it's different. It seems a little hasty to clear out his stock otherwise.
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It kinda makes me wonder if he's got a sample of the new T50RP and has confirmed that it's different. It seems a little hasty to clear out his stock otherwise.
It sounds like a fire sale. If I remember right he was still determining the failure rate for the driver mods when he released it (whether he could get the rate low enough to offer upgrades from Alpha Dogs or not).
It will be interesting to see if there's a new closed Ether to replace the Prime.
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Pirates can have mine mint, less than 20 hours on em for $700 shipped...
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They are on close-out for $699 or something ridiculous like that now.
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799 straight from Dan, you asshole.
Fine, 650 shipped to a pirate.