CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => IEM Measurements => Topic started by: ultrabike on July 06, 2014, 05:30:24 AM
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Sound
These are a little bassy and down-sloped in the treble. However, they are definitively smooth and enjoyable. These have good dynamics and like the mids. No wonkyness ... so far. The treble while slanted, it's pretty smooth as well and not peaky. The impact is more than decent. With jazz these are nice. The sound of these is in someways unique IMO.
Comfort
It is very easy for me to get a good fit/seal with these ones. Even with the medium tips (I usually use large).
Presentation
Not embarrassing.
Price
Like $50... not too bad I guess.
Overall
These are nice if looking for a smooth and warm signature. From memory I think I would prefer the Xiaomi Pistons though, but YMMV.
Measurements (uncompensated)
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1663.0;attach=6921;image)
Distortion Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1663.0;attach=6923;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1663.0;attach=6925;image)
Impedance
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1663.0;attach=6927;image)
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Some comparos... BTW to my ears the Tenores do sound down sloped in the treble, but perhaps not as much as the measurements suggest...
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1663.0;attach=6929;image)
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Ultrabike a question for you....
Since I don't like shoving things in my ear I have always refrained from using universal IEM's (tried a Koss Sparkplug once !) I am always left puzzled by how little complaints there are regarding the treble roll-off as if there is none or very little.
I know measurements aren't reliable above 10kHz.
Still wondering when one 'sweeps' the earphones (not too loud please !) while in the ear do you also hear the drop-off starting at 3kHz or is this a measurement issue only ?
You can compare the sweep to say HD558 or other reference phone that measures well extended.
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I think that roll-off at 3khz is beyond extreme compared to many subjective impressions. Are you getting any pinch or deformation in the coupler?
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I think that roll-off at 3khz is beyond extreme compared to many subjective impressions. Are you getting any pinch or deformation in the coupler?
UB's measurements not compensated. If he using a tube similar to mine, depress 2-3k and up 4-7k. Looks pretty darn good.
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-20dB at 10k is simply not possible. I'd have to turn in my Golden Ears certificate.
ER4S measurements on ultra's rig will clear things up I think.
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I would say that even past 9 kHz I wouldn't put too much faith in my measurements. However, below that frequency things start to match what I hear (relatively speaking). Consider the following plot comparo (measured twice a few minutes ago) between the JVC XX and the Tenore:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1663.0;attach=6931;image)
I compared with 1 kHz and 5 kHz sinusoidal waveforms, and I think I heard the 20 dB drop off difference between the two cans at 5 kH. Things get closer between the two at 10 kHz w the XX being louder at that frequency. In all cases I tried to match 1 kHz by ear. This was very rough since I don't have two independent headphone outputs and had to readjust at 1 kHz.
20 dB is a very noticeable difference, but it's not loud and drop dead silent different. I think I heard that difference with the tone test, but I'm definitively not golden eared or so.
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Not just 10k...I misspoke. I meant to say a roll-off that makes it down 20dB at 10k doesn't make sense to me.
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I would say there is a difference (between the V shapped XX and the relaxed Tenore) of about 10 to 20 dB in the 3 to 10 kHz region. The roll of past 10 kHz is perhaps more due to the fact that I don't use compensation.
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Consider the following plot comparo (measured twice a few minutes ago) between the JVC XX and the Tenore:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1663.0;attach=6931;image)
Here is the GE measurement of the JVC HA-FXZ200
(http://en.goldenears.net/en/files/attach/images/108/365/051/f1b6e200dfaca5ba9d71864209bdd5bc.png)
It does have a good resemblance with your measurements so the Tenore measurements must be somewhat realistic at least.
I can't believe no one complaints about this roll-off ?
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It does have a good resemblance with your measurements so the Tenore measurements must be somewhat realistic at least.
I can't believe no one complaints about this roll-off ?
That doesn't necessarily follow. Inductively, you make a cogent argument but it is not necessarily valid. We won't know how sound it is until we get actual confirmation of the phone in question.
I'm skeptical myself as I do not like dark phones but I didn't run them through my suite of triangle, bell and chime test tracks. I do find it suspect that 4khz before rolling off another 15-20dB is enough for pretty much 98% of all the impressions to not feel they were missing any significant treble. If that's the case, it just means there's an abundance of information up there that most people don't mind missing out on.
I did note the following in my own review though:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1643.0.html
"I like the smooth and natural lower to mid treble on these. If only they could get a bit more sibilance from the crashes."
"Timbre is much closer to the UERM than the ER4 which is a good thing. This is good enough in my mind to help compensate with any resolution deficiency to a relative non-issue versus the ER4."
We also agreed the treble seemed too smooth in a colored and forgiving fashion.
"I’d say there is tonal trade-off here between the bite of the UERM and smoothness of the Zeros."
Then there was this.
"This confirmed my suspicion that while the mids and vocals of the Zeros are pleasing, they are ever so slightly recessed and a bit unresolved at the highest level, though they are smooth and not dry or crispy as is one of my pet peeves with some IEMs and phones that can’t do vocals. By comparison, the UERMs just pull out so much more information on vocals like lips and deep breaths, stuff down in the throats and lays it out in a very smooth, natural, resolving and textured presentation."
So roll off was expected, but not 15-20dB worth in my mind.
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If we really want to defer to the Golden Ears plots to judge frequency response, then we should be looking at the ER4S:
(http://en.goldenears.net/en/files/attach/images/108/770/020/479334a49d7c6e9fed24bbed12a3892f.png)
(http://en.goldenears.net/en/files/attach/images/108/770/020/9c2102168653320daa17f21df2c0764a.png)
Let ultra measure the ER4S and see if the roll-off is still there. At this point, I'm willing to bet the ER4S is closer to the Tenore (in the treble) than it is the JVC. And I don't think anyone would say that the ER4S actually sounds like that in the treble, that's for sure. "Reference" 'phones don't stay around for long if they have response like that.
I'm also reminded of the Noble4 that ultra measured, which (IIRC) was similarly sloped but I felt was closer to neutral than anything ultra has measured so far.
Heck, at this point, I feel it would be easier to just subtract every other plot against the ER4S's response and call that the perceived response. Right now, ultra's IEM measurements require too much interpretation.
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Honestly, the sheer physical differences amongst IEMs can alter how they interact with a given coupler, it's kind of a PITA compared to headphones. I don't envy the task.
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I'll do the Etys next.
First, I agree with Anax impressions. To me cymbals and stuff are there, but they sound distance. That said, I don't think its 15 or 20 dB of from what most people perceive from flat. Also note that these plots are aligned at 1 kHz. If I have chosen to align things with white or pink noise things might look less rolled off on the upper end.
Second, I heard both the Nobel 4s and the ER4S. To me the ER4S are NOT a reference of perceived response. They are just to damn lean and analytic. The ER4S have good clarity and maybe somewhat detailed, but they are far from neutral to my ears. I could use the ER4S as the "target curve" and call it a day... but what I measured w/o compensation is closer to what I hear: a hell of a lean sound signature. But hey, who am I?
Third, like Anax said, IEMs are really hard to measure, and perception differences are proly stronger here than with other headphone types.
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Maybe it's a QC issue. There have been some discrepancies reported in bass. Why not in the treble? They're pretty cheap.
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I'll do the Etys next.
First, I agree with Anax impressions. To me cymbals and stuff are there, but they sound distance. That said, I don't think its 15 or 20 dB of from what most people perceive from flat. Also note that these plots are aligned at 1 kHz. If I have chosen to align things with white or pink noise things might look less rolled off on the upper end.
Second, I heard both the Nobel 4s and the ER4S. To me the ER4S are NOT a reference of perceived response. They are just to damn lean and analytic. The ER4S have good clarity and maybe somewhat detailed, but they are far from neutral to my ears. I could use the ER4S as the "target curve" and call it a day... but what I measured w/o compensation is closer to what I hear: a hell of a lean sound signature. But hey, who am I?
Third, like Anax said, IEMs are really hard to measure, and perception differences are proly stronger here than with other headphone types.
Can always compensate for the bass if we don't feel that's correct. Golden Ears sure doesn't. But in terms of midrange and treble tone, the Etys are spot on to my ears.
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ER4S is always going to be controversial simply because it's one of the most difficult to get a fit any given user finds comfortable and actually performs as intended at the same time.
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Ah... those ER4S measurements gave the explanation.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1665.0;attach=6934;image)
vs GE
(http://en.goldenears.net/en/files/attach/images/108/770/020/9c2102168653320daa17f21df2c0764a.png)
It is clear to see that (as mentioned by Marv) UB doesn't compensate FR, they are raw plots.
GE does.
What could be deducted is that the Tenores should have a lot more highs but will still be softer than 'flat'.
This jives with all the reports.
Perhaps it may be an idea to create a compensation curve based on the ER4S which, aside from some bass roll-off seems pretty accurate all the way up.
That compensation curve could be based on one or more other 'known' IEM's measured by GE and maybe some input by Anax (how he perceives them)
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GoldenEars uses bass compensation to overcome the "missing 6 dB (https://www.etymotic.com/pdf/erl-0049-2004.pdf)" effect. The Etymotic-type people (e.g. Rin (http://rinchoi.blogspot.com/2012/05/on-case-of-missing-6-db-effect.html)) think boosting bass is unnecessary, and would rather rely on expectation training to overcome the lack of tactile/visceral bass response as well as delayed bone conduction response (along with other factors not fully understood).
The main issue is a design issue. You can't simply design an IEM to have +6 dB in the sub-bass region only, and simultaneously phase delay it. The one earphone that comes closest right now is the SE846, and it's not close to perfect. Designing sub-bass only bass boost is not trivial.
That's why I opt for a compromise of sorts. I tend to like +3-4 dB of shelf boost <600 Hz. For me, perhaps because I'm used to it, I can overcome hearing thresholds in the sub-bass this way, while the additional mild boost of +3-4 dB isn't enough to psychoacoustically mask away midrange details much.
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Do we have measurement for Sony mh1c. As Tenore are compared to MH1C would like to see how FR looks for both.
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I am going to share my measurements of the Tenores using an artificial silicone ear. These are 'raw', uncompensated measurements. All measurements with Comply foam tips.
As some people commented on getting bass-heavy sets and others praising their flat bass response, here is my set, a 'hybrid' ;)
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I have some problems understanding ultrabike's and stratocaster's distortion measurements.
Let's look at ultrabike's measuremets of the right earpiece.
Do I look at the difference between the FR and THD to see how much distortion there is?
So at 1 kHz it would be a difference of about 55 dB which equals 0.178 % of distortion?
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Do I look at the difference between the FR and THD to see how much distortion there is?
So at 1 kHz it would be a difference of about 55 dB which equals 0.178 % of distortion?
Here's an explanation and a calculator:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm
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Yup, assuming their results are accurate and graphs are read correctly, a 55dB difference would be about 0.18% THD.
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It's the way REW renders distortion. It doesn't give distortion % display options across the band, only dB. There is however a cursor that yields % values, and indeed @ 1kHz the cursor yields 0.178% THD.
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I've tried these a few times since getting them in, and I think they sound pretty good. Some extra bass and warmth. Treble is a bit laid-back but still decently detailed from what I can tell. Fairly smooth and cohesive sound overall. Pretty darn enjoyable, IMO, and seem like a great deal for the price. I wish they came with more tip options for my weird ears.
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I liked these enough that I convinced a coworker to get a pair. How I described them to him (not verbatim):
"I am seriously impressed with them. They're a bit bassy, warm, and creamy, but tastefully so. Bass still has pretty good pitch, detail, and tone to it. Decent sense of space and soundstage, at least out of the few IEMs I have tried (not many, admittedly). Mids aren't recessed and have good detail. Treble is a bit relaxed but still comes through with good detail (not detail monsters, though). Very smooth and easy to listen to."
I guess I'll ship these back now, but I wish I could keep 'em. Great deal! Surprisingly small, too.
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is it weird that I like then more than my HD650? they might not have the detail, nor the soundstage but... they are just so polite and fun. The way they are tuned just make me sing...
I'm a horrible person, am I?
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Polite and fun is probably a good way to describe them. If that's what you are looking for, so be it.
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Polite and fun is probably a good way to describe them. If that's what you are looking for, so be it.
I just bought a pair for a friend as he helped me cut down a big tree yesterday. He has an iPod nano knock off. No brand name; cheap. He had me listen to it with some iPod buds. The treble is like a Beyer DT-990 on steroids and HGH. Piercing! Like an ice pick to the eardrums! Hoping the Tenore's will mellow the sound a bit for him. At least until I can talk him into a better source. He's a longtime friend and I don't want him to ruin his hearing with that thing. :gross:
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Are you sure it's the exact same model we're talking about and not something else from that brand in that line? If so, does it sound weird on other devices? If so, might be a bad pair. They should not sound like you described.
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Are you sure it's the exact same model we're talking about and not something else from that brand in that line? If so, does it sound weird on other devices? If so, might be a bad pair. They should not sound like you described.
Sorry I was unclear.
They are the same model, they haven't shipped yet. The hot treble was from his source, his cheap iPod knock off. He loved the price more than the sound I think. He's a newbie to all this. Thought getting him a pair of the Tenore's might be a way to get him to buy a better source if they roll the treble as was mentioned in this thread. I thought for the price, there wasn't much to lose trying. I'm sure if he doesn't like them he'll give them to me or someone else to use.