CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Bill-p on May 19, 2015, 12:33:21 AM
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Other notable posts in this thread:
Link to measurements of another set of HD600 (my own):
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2432.msg68031.html#msg68031
Link to possible mods:
Mod #1: made by stratocaster
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2432.msg68458.html#msg68458
Mod #2: made by me (Bill-P)
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2432.msg68562.html#msg68562
Mod #3: some more additions by stratocaster
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2432.msg68617.html#msg68617
Contents of this original post:
This one is CEE TEE's pair. It's bone stock.
Super neutral, and maybe a bit hot at 3-4KHz, but I couldn't hear it on CEE TEE's amazing Moth prototype amp. Seriously, I loved that combo! It made the HD600 just ever so slightly less fast and euphonic than some Stax. That's an insane feat to achieve. Resolution is almost up there with HD800, and the only thing it was missing was the soundstage of the HD800 to me. Absolutely awesome little thing!
Channel matching is impeccable, and only offset a bit due to my poor positioning skills at low bass and >8KHz. I'd say... it's practically perfect by any means.
CSD shows extreme speed even down to 400Hz on my rig for both channels. Notice the extra decay is mostly due to enclosure/ear pads. In actual practice, I heard this headphone as being much faster than it is generally described. If it's a bit soft/warm/veiled, I think that's more due to rolled FR >8KHz and slight bass bump rather than to any resonance or decay. This is about as clean as anything can get IMO. Certainly much cleaner than some Stax (trust me, I still have measurements of the Stax SR-X Mk.3!), and some (if not most) planar magnetics. LCD-2 and Code-X actually don't measure this well on my rig. :-0
Side note: I created a new thread because I bought a HD600 as well. Will measure it and compare to this pair once it arrives. And then I may do some simple mods, but... honestly? If there is such a headphone that I don't mod at all, then this is it.
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Yeah, I really want a pair after listening to one. It's the most natural sounding headphone I've heard.
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Yeah... I'm honestly not sure what the differences are between my rig and others that cause the other rigs to not show the amazingly fast speed of these drivers, but I think they are quite fast and clean, and that contributes to their resolution and detail retrieval capability.
If not for the weird ridge around 3-5KHz, these would be practically perfect IMO.
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I think I need to measure mine, I am just not hearing it ???
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Don, coming from Yamahas I could definitely see the HD600/650 as sounding... thin.
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Yeah... CSD is certainly a bit on the thin side on this HD600 that I measured. Will see how the pair that's coming will fare.
I have some ideas for small tweaks that may take away the upper mid peak.
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I sold mine a little more than a year ago and after a few "upgrades", I could have definitely just lived with all the good stuff it does and its few shortcomings. After hearing this headphone out of some crazy rigs, it's clear that it scales amazingly well IMO.
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While I do feel the slightly hot lower-treble is audible (extra vocal forwardness or bite) it's not objectionable to my ears. Never felt the need to mod that away.
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Don, coming from Yamahas I could definitely see the HD600/650 as sounding... thin.
LOL
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Sooo....Bill-p, when are you selling your modded HD 600?
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Sooo....Bill-p, when are you selling your modded HD 600?
If/when I feel like a mod is even necessary to begin with. :D
And by the way, direct comparison showed the LCD-2 is ever so slightly less bright than this one. I hope the LCD-2 will arrive some time soon! Just so you can put it on and go "oh, that's what he meant".
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Did you send it UPS, USPS etc etc? No word yet.
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That's funny...when I EQ'd mine by ear, I put -3 dB Q4 at 3500 Hz and -4 dB Q4 at 5500 Hz. I also have 3 dB Q2 at 7500 Hz for some reason.
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Did you send it UPS, USPS etc etc? No word yet.
Mm... that's weird? I think it should arrive by now, unless something weird is happening. I'll ask the post office.
That's funny...when I EQ'd mine by ear, I put -3 dB Q4 at 3500 Hz and -4 dB Q4 at 5500 Hz. I also have 3 dB Q2 at 7500 Hz for some reason.
Haha, I can see that.
I finally got my HD600, and it's indeed slightly bothersome at the upper mids, but not terribly annoying. The sound it puts out is still tonally better than a lot of other stuffs on the market. I'm thinking I'll leave this one stock after all...
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Will this be your first.. kept virgin pair of headphones? :)p8
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Yep, essentially. If you don't want to count some ear buds and IEMs.
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Here's measurements for my pair.
Different from CEE TEE's pair? Quite.
Is it brighter? Hmm... I'm using an amp that inherently has some roll off on the top end, so maybe that's why it doesn't bother me, but I did notice that the bottom was slightly lacking in heft. Overall, still neutral, but if this is how some of the new HD600's are measuring, I can totally see why some may think they are bright. Everything >3KHz is just a tad elevated from neutral on my rig. Funny enough, 3-5KHz seems consistent.
Would I mod these? Mmmm... still very much on the fence about that. Maybe to reduce that 3-5KHz peak? But I wouldn't want to touch anything else.
Anyway, CEE TEE's pair is amazball. End of story.
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It could also come down to differences in ear pad wear and the level of clamp between the pairs. Not sure how old CEE TEE's pair is.
Go HD650 if you want a bit more bass and want to tone down that 3-5KHz area. ;)
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CEE TEE's is probably much older than mine. I have receipt for my current pair.
Anyway, definitely not going to try driving this headphone out of any bright source. It tears my ears apart. But out of a warm-ish rolled source, it actually is very enjoyable. Much more so than other headphones I have in my collection.
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Yeah... I'm honestly not sure what the differences are between my rig and others that cause the other rigs to not show the amazingly fast speed of these drivers, but I think they are quite fast and clean, and that contributes to their resolution and detail retrieval capability.
If not for the weird ridge around 3-5KHz, these would be practically perfect IMO.
I really do think that Solderdude's filters are worth checking out for the HD600/HD650. My 650 has lost that mid-range hump and the bass goes very low in a good way. The veil and treble issues are gone. IMHO. Yeah, I have one of the SeNNators.
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Sorry, I'm more of an acoustic guy, as you can tell. :&
Work in progress... everything is reversible. Not sure if I'm liking the results or not... but will publish details if it's any more drastic than this. Currently, 3-5KHz is "only" about 1.5dB too elevated, which I guess is about the "safe zone" but I'd like to see that part flattened if possible.
Will investigate more. Now that I have all the time in the world.
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Lemme guess: toilet paper?
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Took the plunge and got me a HD 600. Gotta order some Bounty paper towels as well. I would love to see the face of the customs official in India when he/she opens it for inspection. :)
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HD600, slightly modded. What more can one expect for the price these go (used)? And I keep asking myself why I have been spending thousands of dollars on phones that never really lived up to my expectations.
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Stratocaster, what are the mods?
I had tried front damping with toilet paper/foam, the quarter mod, back damping (in specific locations, as in around the baffle holes and behind the driver or everywhere except directly behind the driver), removing the back foam, removing the plastic baffle that held the back foam, using the headphones grilless, putting electrical tape on the plastic of the earpads to increase seal with the headphone body, adjusting the clamp, and changing the compliance of the earpads.
Basically, I like your graph linearity and distortion measurements very, very much. (No ear pain and headaches from spikes/recession/harmonic distortion addition to specific frequency bands--yessss!!!--more time spent listening and without fatigue during and afterword--yesss!!!--reasonable cost---yesss!!!).
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stratocaster, your graphs look very pretty. Please tell us your mods!
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Strat, let me join the chorus as well...just got a reasonable price on the 600 and it's on its way.
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The mod consists of a thin disc of cotton plus a ~7mm foam disc right behind the driver plus a very thin sheet of felt covering the cup mesh. I am adding pics of how the stock HD600 measures on my rig (FR and CSD), plus an overlay of stock (red) vs mod (green) measurements.
As you can see, there are no effects over 5kHz, but definitely below. Also, distortion and CSD have improved.
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Whoah, nice! Where can we get some of that modding material?
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That foam look like the same kind of memory foam I use in my custom pads. Got it from here (http://www.foamonline.com/).
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Thanks for sharing.
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Does that amount of damping take too much away from liveliness and openness of sound? I sort of see the application of physical damping materials akin to negative feedback in amps. Could be too much of a good thing.
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Does that amount of damping take too much away from liveliness and openness of sound? I sort of see the application of physical damping materials akin to negative feedback in amps. Could be too much of a good thing.
My first thought as well. Seems like it would kill openness.
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Well, then here's an alternative for you picky folks.
Dynamat at specific spots mostly in the grill assembly, felt disc instead of foam disc, and tissue/toilet paper as extra front damping to compliment the stock foam piece. Please note the very specific shape of the front damping paper. I tried many different shapes, and the current one is the only one that makes a difference without killing too much clarity. Though my ears may be tinned so YMMV. (oops, forgot to say, I used 2 layers of tissue paper and 1 layer of toilet paper. You may use more/less to tune to your liking, but that's the right amount for me)
Photographic evidence:
(http://s16.postimg.org/nrud64ac1/IMG_3347.jpg) (http://s16.postimg.org/m01eb7qz9/IMG_3347.jpg)
(http://s16.postimg.org/gagkd5vf5/IMG_3348.jpg) (http://s16.postimg.org/3vtscu3x1/IMG_3348.jpg)
(http://s16.postimg.org/r7hw1xi6p/IMG_3349.jpg) (http://s16.postimg.org/totn97239/IMG_3349.jpg)
(http://s16.postimg.org/ptq96mixd/IMG_3350.jpg) (http://s16.postimg.org/jssk9jwb9/IMG_3350.jpg)
(http://s16.postimg.org/br8x5e2xd/IMG_3351.jpg) (http://s16.postimg.org/qzyuj5wlx/IMG_3351.jpg)
Measurement graphs are also attached.
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Virgin headphones no more, huh? :)p13
I wasn't planning to defile my HD650 beyond spreading them eagle over some books to loosen up their clamp a little bit, but that reduction in the bass distortion got my attention. I'm going to have to try some dynamat now...
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Does that amount of damping take too much away from liveliness and openness of sound?
To my ears it does not. In addition, getting rid of the mid-bass elevation eliminates its masking effect on the highs as well. You have got to be careful to avoid overdamping, though. I found felt, TP or other stuff in front of the driver - not only with the HD600s - has a lot more detrimental effects, muffling the sound and taking away air. In most cases something sounds off when I use front damping.
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Strat, do you have an HD650 you can try that mod on?
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Strat, do you have an HD650 you can try that mod on?
Unfortunately I haven't.
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Another take, this time back damped plus pad modification. One wouldn't believe that this is an HD600...
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Front damping--maybe the damping reflects the sound back into the driver causing some driver break up or perhaps the sound getting distorted when it bounces of the already moving driver.
As for being an HD600 I can definitely believe it. Just like the T50RP mods. A partly finished headphone (or in this case, not manufactured to full potential).
Ahhh. . . so love smooth, flat, low, low in distortion response FR graphs. And the CSD is perhaps the best I've seen on Changstar. I can imagine the
attack, sustain, decay of simultaneous instruments so. . .
Right now I'm making due on modding my Slants. (Kinda embarrassing, but also a similar case to the HD600. Similar in that both are good, but not technical enough to be end end game. For the Slants its reducing bass distortion and filling and smoothing out the treble, especially the 10k slight peak and last octave drop.)
I have alpha pads with the cloth removed and pad glue on. The angle is with the stitching forward about 20 degrees, or whatever spreads the pad pressure most equally across the side of the head and requires the smallest setting. This is for as equivalent a seal on the contacting pad area as possible.
The pads inside with a stiff-ish black foam (a lot like the one that comes w/the HD600 box) about an 3/4 inch tall and long enough for the pad. Then I put the foam from dt770 pads (sacrificed em'). Then stuffed, densely, piece by piece, halves of 2 ply toilet paper. About 50 or so sheets per side. I don't really know. Just a whole damn lot. Testing sine sweep and tracks as I went. The end product was a pad depth increase of about an inch, though the pad's foam itself did compress some. The bare driver felt was exposed about an inch square.
My fingers really pressed hard to compact the toilet paper damping. Otherwise, the sound muffles the treble. Subjectively, it smoothed out the 10k-20k area, but the paper tends to decompress and the treble gets reduced too much. And I say damping, because it is damping the reflections from my head, the air pressure inside the cavity, and it absorbs stray frequencies, provides a stiff-ish resistant surface for bass to propagate. Or so I hypothesize.
My measure of success is both hearing enjoyment and lack of pain afterwards. If I have pain (and temporary hearing loss at associated headphone spikes/plateaus), I feel uneasy. So I really like clean responses.
HD600 is my next project. Thanks, Stratocaster.
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The following might help those who find the stock HD600 a little hot between 3 and 5 kHz. As the overlay shows, this may be addressed by using a ring of dense open-cell foam under the pads. Mine are a little compressed already, so I tried this mod. The foam ring was taken from a left-over third-party Grado L-cush.
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Is that mod with just the front foam sheet removed, the L-Cush under the earpads, and no other modifications?
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Yes, the pic below shows an overlay of back-damped with (red line) versus without foam-padded pads (green).
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I really hate that scale, haha, 6 dB is huge for me and it appears kinda understated at that scale.
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under the microscope ;-)
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Nice, thank you.
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Yes, indeed, thank you.
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Yep, thanks, stratocaster!
Looks like I should try to find an alternative to the foam piece sitting in front of the driver. It does sound like it's impeaching the driver acoustically.
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Selective frequency and ringing damping:
I've spent time testing this mod on Slants and HD600. Rip out eighths of a piece of toilet paper. It's easiest if you roll up the piece and then rip the cylinder looking thing into eighths. Ball up one of the pieces and put one in each ear pad in the same place. Play your favorite test song and move the pieces to different places. When the music starts to become more alive, and you feel the sound is improved, you can firmly push the pieces into the recesses of the earpad. You may double check with a sine sweep. Note frequency flattening, filling in of dips, damping of peaks, better articulation overall or of certain instruments (by timbre or frequency range), changing timbre of the sine sweep, and perhaps better channel matching. Repeat as many times as you want. In general, more toilet paper will make a warmer sound. This happens most severely when compressing and cramming toilet paper indiscriminately into the earpad space. Whereas a lot of uncompressed toilet paper causes a veiled sound and a flat sheet flattens at first and then causes a broad hill somewhere in the treble, upper mids.
An easy test for whether the damping place is correct is if you end up still listening to the headphones instead of ripping them off in disgust or pain.
I was able to fill in the 10k-15k dip and ~20k spike in the HD600 a bit with this. I presume this will also work with other headphones, including the HE1000 and its current splashy treble.
Note that I have the front foam behind the earpads and toilet paper/black cotton mesh damping in the grills.
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What's a good price to pay for a new hd600?
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What's a good price to pay for a new hd600?
Should be able to get it for $300 if you look/wait
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Yup, $300 or less. I got a like-new pair directly from Sennheiser for $275ish around this time last year. HD650 cost me a bit more but still in the $350 range or so. Same sorta thing direct through Senn.
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Yup, $300 or less. I got a like-new pair directly from Sennheiser for $275ish around this time last year. HD650 cost me a bit more but still in the $350 range or so. Same sorta thing direct through Senn.
Your review on infidelity got my vote and I'm probably going to pull the trigger on the HD650's tomorrow.
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Thanks! Hope you enjoy them as much as I do. (And don't forget about the simple mods floating around in one of the threads here.)
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Should be able to get it for $300 if you look/wait
As much as I hate to admit it, though... If you're impatient like I was, and have heard the HD600 before, then even at full price, it's worth buying. Patience has never been my strong suit, tbh.
At $300, give or take, it's a no-brainer.
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Wow, I bought a slightly used one for $245 three months ago
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I'll keep an eye out, don't have the funds now anyway thanks guys
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Pulled the trigger on a new HD650 a few hours ago... $320 shipped
There are more, but I don't want to advertise. PM for the source if you're interested. I asked a large seller for a deal and they came through. I would like to share the deal if anyone else is looking. They told me Sennheiser has recently raised the wholesale price.
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Thanks! Hope you enjoy them as much as I do. (And don't forget about the simple mods floating around in one of the threads here.)
I've listened to them before, but the current price put me off, until the deal I inquired about came through.
The mods look nice and simple too.
I also ordered an extra stock cable and I'm going to chop the 1/4" plug and solder a neutrik 4pin XLR to it. Never mind the $250 stock balanced cable, $30 is what I'm talking about.
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Finally, I think I'm done modding my HD600. Won't touch it ever again, except for maybe to change the ear pads when they go bad?
Pushing 3-4KHz down without cutting into the higher frequencies too much or boosting bass? It seemed like a fantasy, but somehow I achieved it.
Oh, and here's a bonus: lower bass distortion. At 100Hz, the stock measurement showed 0.399% bass distortion. Modded, it's 0.169%. That's a massive improvement IMO. It's very audible, and... I must admit, I'm loving it.
So what does it entail? Just... dynamat. Lots of it. And optional front damping if you'd like to fix the FR. To me, this headphone was a bit bright at stock, so I "fixed" just that.
Will post the process and all once I'm less lazy (or once my internet allows uploading huge images...). Now to finally enjoy my music and not have to worry about missing out on much. :)p7
Edit: some photos went through so... enjoy!
(http://s18.postimg.org/a7hllxrqx/Full_Size_Render_5.jpg)
(http://s7.postimg.org/fzrxagjjv/Full_Size_Render_6.jpg)
Look, ma, no dust cover, nothing between ears and drivers! :)p1
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No kidding about the dynamat there. I can scarcely believe the improvements on bass distortion. So pretty much just shelf liner and dynamat needed for this?
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Bill, what dynamat is that?
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Nice Bill what amp/dac you using?
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There are some paper cut outs involved, too.
I talked about distortion and yet... I didn't post stock measurement!
So here ya go. Stock vs Modded distortion. CSD, too... just for kicks. And I took another set of measurements just in case the last one was bad and something happened to bass distortion. Results? Still the same. It's much lower than stock. Also included the cursor so you can read dB levels, percentages, and etc...
Dynamat's effect is real, my brothers!
Here's a link to Amazon for reference:
http://www.amazon.com/Dynamat-10435-Self-Adhesive-Deadener-Xtreme/dp/B00020CAUG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1442427113&sr=8-2&keywords=dynamat
You can probably buy a whole roll of this stuff at your local car dealer.
Oh, and audiofrk, I'm using my DIY amp (that you heard at last CanJam), but with some slight tweaks, and Gumby will come next week. I just shipped the Gungnir out yesterday for upgrade.
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Nice!
Also, thanks for the link. I feel like an idiot now. When I worked at Circuit City, back when they had stores, the car audio guys referred to just about all damping as "dynamat"... All this time people here were referring to "dynamat," I was envisioning something much more substantial, a la mass loaded vinyl or closed cell foam. The moral of the story is, fuck you Circuit City.
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Haha, I still remember sneaking off to CC after school to check out video games.
Anyway, despite being significantly better than stock (IMO), this is still not as clear as the HD800. I think some form of enclosure/driver limit has been reached. In a sense, I guess the HD800 is still cleaner than HD600/650 in this regard. Now here's me wondering what would happen if one were to apply dynamat to an HD800...
All hell will break loose? It'll be so detailed that it'll sound like it came from another dimension?
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Haha, I still remember sneaking off to CC after school to check out video games.
Anyway, despite being significantly better than stock (IMO), this is still not as clear as the HD800. I think some form of enclosure/driver limit has been reached. In a sense, I guess the HD800 is still cleaner than HD600/650 in this regard. Now here's me wondering what would happen if one were to apply dynamat to an HD800...
All hell will break loose? It'll be so detailed that it'll sound like it came from another dimension?
I'll let you know. ;) Cool results. I've managed to drop the mid range distortion on the HD800 further and only barely touched the bass. Look forward to seeing what happens.
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I'll let you know. ;) Cool results. I've managed to drop the mid range distortion on the HD800 further and only barely touched the bass. Look forward to seeing what happens.
Awesome! I'm looking forward to that, too.
I recently heard a stock HD800 on my setup, and... honestly, it was surprisingly listenable, so I think I'll end up with a HD800 some time in the future. Probably not any time soon since I prioritized Gumby, but... it's on my roadmap. Hahaha
Hopefully you've completed your mod then. I'm getting lazy as of late, and I've been more inclined to listen than to tweak.
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Looks great Bill, thanks for sharing this. Very nice results. I'm going to order up some materials and give it a try. Did you adhere the liner material to the metal mesh just to keep it in place?
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No, I didn't adhere it. I cut it to the same dimension as the stock foam piece and used the earpad mount to clamp it down.
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So Bill, the dynamat and the rug liner material mods supersede the TP and other material used previously?
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Well, not quite.
There's still a bit of TP in there in order to nudge the FR in the right direction. But there is much less than before as I've figured out the minimum amount necessary.
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From the looks of things, the mod consists of:
- Dynamat Extreme all over the back of the headphone while leaving the "holes" open.
- Some amount of tissue paper/toilet paper behind the oval white fabric screen. I'm guessing this is the same size as the screen?
- A 1cm thick paper ring ontop of the oval white fabric screen.
- Some shelf liner and mesh, presumably to hold down the front/provide some protection/for comfort.
Would this be correct?
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Well, not quite.
There's still a bit of TP in there in order to nudge the FR in the right direction. But there is much less than before as I've figured out the minimum amount necessary.
So will you have a post putting everything together?
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From the looks of things, the mod consists of:
- Dynamat Extreme all over the back of the headphone while leaving the "holes" open.
- Some amount of tissue paper/toilet paper behind the oval white fabric screen. I'm guessing this is the same size as the screen?
- A 1cm thick paper ring ontop of the oval white fabric screen.
- Some shelf liner and mesh, presumably to hold down the front/provide some protection/for comfort.
Would this be correct?
Yes. That is quite correct. The steel mesh actually serves a different purpose that I'll mention later on.
As for dynamat, it's actually in more spots than just the back. Basically... any surface that could have taken dynamat was pretty much covered in the stuff.
So will you have a post putting everything together?
Yes. As soon as I have confirmed that it will work with a 2nd pair of HD600. :)
I don't believe in not revealing things and keeping them proprietary. I just need to confirm the effect of the mod as well as further applicability.
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Yes. As soon as I have confirmed that it will work with a 2nd pair of HD600. :)
I don't believe in not revealing things and keeping them proprietary. I just need to confirm the effect of the mod as well as further applicability.
Do you want mine? Let me know asap as I will need to ship it to you from India...and its not a problem.
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Haha, you know...
That's actually a good idea if you don't mind. I'll do this one for free since you helped me out with LCD-2 and all. :)
Will PM you with details. Hopefully, this one will give you incentive to keep the HD600 along with your other high-end headphones.
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Got your PM. You'll get it next week.
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God, saw your new avatar. I DON"T WANT your glasses as part of the mod :))
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Bwahahaha. Well, I'm removing myself away from the equation so all that's left are the things that I usually wear on my head: glasses and HD600. ;)
I actually kind wish I had the HD600 earlier, because then I would have been able to get the tonality of the LCD-2 just right!
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This is useful. Sonarworks' averaged measurements of new HD 600 versus those of new HD 650.
(http://i.imgur.com/r4H2Iy9.png)
I bought the HD 650 myself for being darker, having a better cable, and no granite counter top paint job. The bass and lower mids were almost identical.
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^I finally just have to break down and get an HD650. Then mod it. Thanks.
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Have you guys ever tried open cell foam? You can basically get it at your local Walmart for 50 cents a bag. I used it before to dampen midrange reflections on pair of technics sb7000a I use to own and it worked well. Used it for my 240dfs before with good result as well before they bit the dust by testing an old guitar amp cause it sent DC through the headphone jack...anyhoo, I'm just guessing it can work pretty well for the back screening of the hd600/650 maybe..
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^I finally just have to break down and get an HD650. Then mod it. Thanks.
Pm if your successful, please!!
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^I can mod it for him using the same method I modded the HD600. I think the HD650 will respond better since it has lower bass distortion to begin with, and a more reasonable EQ. HD600 is slightly V-shaped at stock.
Have you guys ever tried open cell foam? You can basically get it at your local Walmart for 50 cents a bag. I used it before to dampen midrange reflections on pair of technics sb7000a I use to own and it worked well. Used it for my 240dfs before with good result as well before they bit the dust by testing an old guitar amp cause it sent DC through the headphone jack...anyhoo, I'm just guessing it can work pretty well for the back screening of the hd600/650 maybe..
The closest Walmart is about 1 hour from me. :(
But I'm open to everything, so... will try to get some and will report back. I should post a HD600 modding guide on the new site, too. The mod has been finished for a long while already, but I need some trusted ears to confirm that the mod does make sense.