The HD600 driver sounds looser - less controlled.
I can almost see why Marv recommends the 650 to complement the AKG7xx.Those plus the Beyer DT880 were the old school trio.
Those plus the Beyer DT880 were the old school trio.
The penguin approves of this desription:
The Amazing Super Duper Underrated HD650. A Headphone That Kicks Serious Ass.
Almost; K501 really.
650 si more refined IMO and I've the same problem than marv' with the vocal shout of he HD600.
Not trying to defend HF, but the HD650 is the highest rated headphone on there.
Not trying to defend HF, but the HD650 is the highest rated headphone on there.
You are incorrect, the LCD-3 is graded higher: (the HF rating system seem borked)
http://www.head-fi.org/products/audeze-lcd3-planar-magnetic-headphone (http://www.head-fi.org/products/audeze-lcd3-planar-magnetic-headphone)
5 star: 63%
4 star: 38%
650 is still quite well regarded on head-fi and still has a large following, but there's a sickening habit and mentality to write it off as mid-fi when comparing it to all the high priced planars on the current market, primarily because of cost reasons and/or the idiotic 'summit-fi' subforum on head-fi.
Ask zdfx and Anax about low-fi gear being pawned off as summit-fi.
You are incorrect, the LCD-3 is graded higher: (the HF rating system seem borked)
http://www.head-fi.org/products/audeze-lcd3-planar-magnetic-headphone (http://www.head-fi.org/products/audeze-lcd3-planar-magnetic-headphone)
5 star: 63%
4 star: 38%
I really liked the HD600s.
Although, I have to say, I slightly prefer the HD598s!!! :o :o Blasphemy I know...
Nice to see this thread!
I was telling Ravi that my favorite rig at the Bay Area Meet was the Yggy --> ZD Super --> HD600 (I wish the HD650 there was terminated to TRS). I found it much more enjoyable than the Yggy --> EC Studio --> HD800, given my preferences.
Realized that the HD800 just isn't for me, honestly. It is SO impressive on some levels, but I much prefer a HD650 for everyday listening. If I was listening exclusively to classical or LFF-remasters then it may be a different story.
A Geek Out --> HD650 rig has no business being as good as it is for under $500.
I so need to try this mod.
I've not heard it personally, and I sold my HD650 long ago due to comfort issues, but I've heard that the Fidelio X2 checks most of the boxes at half the MSRP. Truth to the rumour? They look pretty comfy in comparison to the rigid, plastic HD6XX.
How would it fare with the Modi 2U/Vali combo?
I just tried doing the mods that Marv suggested on the first page. That is, removing the damping directly behind the driver and cutting a small hole in the foam in front of the driver. Highly recommended! This doesn't really improve the very lowest bass all that much, but it does bring up that hump centered around 100Hz a tad and may even shift it down a bit closer to 80Hz. They sound much more lively and impactful now in this regard. This also really helped with some of the odd grain I noticed in the treble before. I noticed before when adding damping inside the HD650 cups (in addition to the stuff directly behind the driver), it did something weird to the treble despite measurements looking good or staying about the same in the upper regions. I was actually using additional front damping before this to boost the bass and help reduce that grain I noticed, but removing the back damping foam stuck behind the driver works a LOT better and actually allows one to cut down on the front damping from the stock config. So, in a nutshell, try the mods on the front page.
One small thing I added to these mods, though, was putting some rug liner on top of the silver mesh surrounding the driver, under the existing foam. This is only cut to cover the mesh, so it's much smaller than the foam, and has an opening in the middle where the driver is exposed....
Do people find the HD6nn to be position sensitive? (or am I asking a newbie question: maybe all 'phones are?)
Kind of thread that makes me want to test them one more time in a long run. And maybe, in the end, get some proper amping for my HD600...my O2 is so boring...
Ali
I hate thisFYP :)p8threadhobby. Makes me want to justify owningboth an HD650 and HD600way too much gear.
FYP :)p8
Ali
I hate this thread. Makes me want to justify owning both an HD650 and HD600.
Has someone tried doing the quarter mod first before taking the foam out of the back to see how much of a difference the rear foam removal makes.
I have not tried the quarter method yet, was thinking about it though. I am just a little nervous because I have never modded a headphone before, I am scared I may accidentally puncture the driver or something, unless there is an easy way to take the foam covering the driver off by removing the earpads.
Thank you for that tip JoelT! I really appreciate it! Any tips on removing the grills?Not a problem. As for the grills: Remove the headphone cable. Gently pull the trim piece that the cable plugs in to (the separate piece that matches the yoke) away from the headphone body. The grill just pops off as well.
Here's how it measures on our rig.
(http://i.imgur.com/nVe8ZkY.png)
The HD650's were one of the first headphones I ever owned. I spent some time trying to "upgrade" them and find something I liked better. I went through the Q701, HE-500, T1, HD800. Eventually I gave up, and just decided to buy an "end game" amp for them which was the Zana Deux SE. I couldn't be happier. While I still maintain the HD800's and enjoy them, if I had to chose between the HD650 and HD800 the HD800 would lose out. I'd image that most people don't pair a $2000 amp with a $300 headphone. It's really something special though.
I hate this thread. Makes me want to justify owning both an HD650 and HD600.
The HD650's were one of the first headphones I ever owned. I spent some time trying to "upgrade" them and find something I liked better. I went through the Q701, HE-500, T1, HD800. Eventually I gave up, and just decided to buy an "end game" amp for them which was the Zana Deux SE. I couldn't be happier. While I still maintain the HD800's and enjoy them, if I had to chose between the HD650 and HD800 the HD800 would lose out. I'd image that most people don't pair a $2000 amp with a $300 headphone. It's really something special though.
Wouldn't surprise me. HD800 doesn't scale much if any on the ZDSE. You should get a ZD Super sometime or have it upgraded to a Super. I hated the ZDSE and made sure to tell Craig every chance I got. Unfortunately, I can't do that anymore. :'(
No other headphone has continued to scale as well as the HD650's.
Unfortunately EC won't re-work my current ZD SE to a Super level.
Weird comment if you own an HD800. :-Z
If you got yours a few months ago, you might have some of the changes already. There have seen some revisions and tweaks over the span of some time. I would say if you like the tonal balance of your current setup with your existing tubes, keep it as it is.
I think it's a shame Sennheiser and others don't offer amps with EQ to fix the Senn midbass hump or other flaws, like solderdude is doing with his Sennator. Bose and others use EQ to improve the sound of their noise-canceling phones as can be seen in the active-vs-passive-mode plots at Innerfidelity. They shouldn't leave it to the customers to cobble together solutions. I would think that EQ would make it simple to fix certain problems, where physical changes to a driver might fix one problem and create others at the same time.
Any way to tell from this?
All this HD650 talk is making me want to buy one again too...
See, you need to be careful of the Changstar shills. They are incessant with their "Flavor of The Decade" recommendations. Don't let it get to you Mav, stay strong!
The Amazing Super Duper Underrated HD650.
Also, if there was one thing that bothered me about the HD600, it was its slight vocal harshness, a bit shouty at times. This characteristic of the HD600 didn't do any favors with the mastering of the second and third Taylor Swift CDs.
I don't exactly know what the differences are between the HD600 and HD650 drivers outside of a slightly different FR, but it does seem like that the HD650 driver is better damped, more controlled, more refined. The HD600 driver sounds looser - less controlled. What was surprising to me that some of the older HD650s had a depression the upper mids and similar bass, but this one wasn't like that all at. This HD650 had a very similar FR response as the HD600 outside of a slight bass elevation around 100Hz. Maybe this is why people who heard this particular HD650 didn't think it sounded veiled at all.
See, you need to be careful of the Changstar shills. They are incessant with their "Flavor of The Decade" recommendations. Don't let it get to you Mav, stay strong!
At these prices, I'm having a hard time resisting...
yeah I am looking at bills measurement of the cee tee's hd600 and I don't really see that much different from the Purrins measurement.
purrin when you said this about the hd600 were you using a recent pair?
Rex, while not as refined as the HD6x0s, the HD5x8 are actually quite good as well. The HD518 in particular is also fairly under appreciated.
purrin - Do you consider the HD650 more resolving than the LCD-2? My last Audez'e was a pre-fazor LCD-2 rev2.5 which sounded more refined than my first LCD-2 and - to my ears - in a tier above the HD650 in technical terms. It was smoother, faster and more resolving, particularly in the lower bass region.
Anyone else decide to do the HD650 mod that purr1n posted in this thread besides me , purr1n , and hans, and if so, what do you think? I agree with purr1n. To me they seem less damped and more "alive" - and on my particular setup, even the sound stage sounds a little better.
This might explain a lot why the folks who heard this particular pair heard no veil.
These older? plots are showing worse numbers for various hp-s when converting to the same (dB) scale.
Might it be that the older measurement apparatus is somewhat to fault?
Hard to believe the new HD650 could beat HD800 in lows at THD.
I've always heard the HD650 as slightly more refined and higher fidelity than the HD600, despite having a darker/bassier tone. Do you think that replacing the 600's drivers with a 650 driver could improve things in that regard without shifting the FR? I guess what I'm asking is how much of the HD650's darker tone is inherent to the tuning materials around it vs. the driver itself.....
Does anyone know when Sennheiser started shipping that beauty of a headphone in the new (HD 800 style) black boxes? When I had ( :-[ ) a HD 650 years ago it came in a silver box.
Does anyone know when Sennheiser started shipping that beauty of a headphone in the new (HD 800 style) black boxes?
Anyone else decide to do the HD650 mod that purr1n posted in this thread besides me , purr1n , and hans, and if so, what do you think? I agree with purr1n. To me they seem less damped and more "alive" - and on my particular setup, even the sound stage sounds a little better. The great part about this mod too is that it is easy and cheap to reverse the mod (the foam behind the driver under the grills may be tricky) but you can easily and cheapy replace the foam on the inside of the cups over the driver. Great mod for my tastes.I completed the mod today after getting my replacement pads which came with the foam inserts. Used the quarter and blade method recommended by purrin. Now, I got the HD650 late last week, so I never merged with the stock sound. Which probably makes my impressions more or less useless. However, I can say something like this: I have the sense of an improvement with respect to attack - like it hits harder and quicker. This could contribute to an increase in perceived liveliness. But I'm still learning my words.
Can someone suggest a good balanced cable for HD600/650? Thinking of picking up a pair after hearing them at a meet a while back. (Now I understand why they are an icon among headphones!)
Using Ranarok as amp so balanced is strongly preferable.
Chop off end of existing HD650 cable. Re-terminate with XLR 4-pin.
The stock cable is only $24 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Replacement-Cable-SENNHEISER-Headphones-HD650/dp/B0028PGXRE). It will end up better looking than using the ugly red/black Cardas connectors (http://www.moon-audio.com/sennheiser-diy-headphone-connectors-for-hd-series.html) too.
It does require a little DIY though.
maybe I should buy and re-terminate a few for pyrates.
What's the pinout for that anyway?
Is it even standardized between headamps from different manufacturers?
maybe I should buy and re-terminate a few for pyrates.I'm going to do three of them this weekend. Two for myself and a spare (600 and 650). May do more later.
For a 4-pin XLR? I'm pretty sure everyone is using:
pin1 = L+
pin2 = L-
pin3 = R+
pin4 = R-
Proly depends on what you are used to. I find the Lambdas inferior to the HD650s in many ways. The Lambdas are perhaps a tad brighter relatively speaking. I don't think the Lambdas are as resolving. Bass would definitively depend on cup fit and is lower than with the HD650s going by memory.
I can understand people not liking the Lambdas for not having enough weight behind them compared to dynamics or orthos, or for being too bright, but calling them less resolving than the HD650s honestly just baffles me. I can hear far deeper into the mix with a Lambda than the HD650.
You might not like, believe or want to hear this, but if you are using an O2 to pair with them then that's one reason you could feel that way. My Leckerton even with the older 209 opamps slaughtered the O2 in resolution.
You might not like, believe or want to hear this, but if you are using an O2 to pair with them then that's one reason you could feel that way. My Leckerton even with the older 209 opamps slaughtered the O2 in resolution.I would like to thank Anaxilus for all the posts discussing the virtues of Leckerton. As a direct result I acquired a UHA-6S mkII. Initially I thought what a nice USB upgrade from ODac+O2. Then I discovered the spdif input. You see, I bought an iBasso dx90. Now that was a reasonably decent improvement over my portable devices' native headphone output. But the dx90 has a spdif output. You see where this is going. dx90 as digital music server and Leckerton doing the heavy lifting. Now I have a portable system that kicks butt and takes names. Thank-you.
I can understand people not liking the Lambdas for not having enough weight behind them compared to dynamics or orthos, or for being too bright, but calling them less resolving than the HD650s honestly just baffles me. I can hear far deeper into the mix with a Lambda than the HD650.
I'll take $50 off the money you owe me for gear if you write a terms glossary for Changstar.We could really use one.
I'll take $50 off the money you owe me for gear if you write a terms glossary for Changstar.
I can understand people not liking the Lambdas for not having enough weight behind them compared to dynamics or orthos, or for being too bright, but calling them less resolving than the HD650s honestly just baffles me. I can hear far deeper into the mix with a Lambda than the HD650.
I cannot hear deeper into the mix with a Lambda (or Lambda like stuffs). I had an SR307(Lambda Like) for audition for a while, again, not as revealing to me. Here are my impressions from then:
Resolution is, as I have come to define it independently from what I hear as well as what I glean from others, the ability to portray information on the recording. The ability to render the picture/frame in its entirety if we want to use the video analogy. It's not a big leap to extend that definition to include both microdetail (plankton, inner-whatever, etc) and spatial information (ambient cues, precise imaging, etc.)
If we can all agree on this definition (feel free to add your interpretations guys), then the Lambdas are certainly a few notches below the HD6xx in terms of providing that resolution. Yes they sound nice and clean and clear, but they just aren't as resolving. It fucking baffles me how people can say a headphone like that is resolving...clearly we're listening to different things or have very definitions/interpretations. Hope that all makes sense
You and me both (and every comparison of the headphones I've ever read up to about a month or two ago).
OJ, I pretty much agree with your definitions and have no idea what you're hearing. :p
I'm definitely a measurements guy but between the possibly bad amp and trouble getting a seal on you rig your measurement's look pretty strange compared to Tyll's numbers on the 207 (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR207SB2217.pdf) and 507 (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSR507SE11049.pdf)
Makes me wonder exactly what we're each listening for because...
to my ears it the various Lambda variations I've heard do that better than the HD650s.
I do agree with the plasticky sound of most of stats, but maybe it depends on your reference : used to stats, you may find dynamic cans gritty / "carton-y", and used to dynamics, you sure find stats plasticky / artificial sounding / lacking body.
Ultra,
that's interesting you regard the 007 as the highest. I presume you have listened to the 009 as well? Any quick comparos between the two? Now that you mention it, the 007 I have is close to the HD 650 but methinks the latter is 'thicker", if you know what I mean.
Yup. Heard the 009 actually more often actually, but have not have the chance to do quick comparos between 007ses and 009ses. The HD6x0 in general would be thicker than either 007 or 009... or less lean or ethereal. Depends on perspective.Unfortunately, I've never had the chance to hear my HD600 out of a good / plankton-friendly amp, so hierarchy is not so obvious to me. But the portrayal of details I've written about in my previous post tells me there's certainly far more potential on Sennheiser side than on Stax side. I've a strong Stax bug, and it's still hard for me to spend megabucks on "regular" , but I'll buy a real dynamic amp eventually :)p3
That said, the question at hand is resolution/plankton/low-level-info. Now on that subject I did have a chance to listen to the Lambdas right next to the HD600s. And indeed, the HD600 had the upper hand.
(Disclaimer: please note that the above statements are objectively all subjective)
Bad amp? Trouble getting seal? Look pretty strange? Well, in my setup they do seem to have a large null around 4kHz for the Lambdas. But overall I don't think the measurements are too far off (specially due to seal). Could be the SRS323 I had at hand. You really feel it was that? I do not use compensation and our rigs are obviously different though. Here are the plots (note I start at 20 Hz instead of 10 Hz)
BTW, I want to buy some Valhalla with HD650 now. Fucking hobby :)p2
Ali
Sorry, I should have been more specific. The FR was pretty close except for the weird null but you're distortion numbers were way higher that Tyll's, I've seen them go lower for other 'phones you've measured so it's not you're mic, and you seemed to have an issue at higher volumes which Anax suggested was a problem with the amp.
I just read that one thread so so maybe I missed something else.
I agree with ultra about Lambdas not sealing well and thus not getting anything like that bass extension. The newer Lambdas seem to do a lot better with bass extension, likely because of the pads. That said, FR isn't exactly what's being argued in terms of resolution. Like Marv said, ability to dig up low level info, though FR does have a role in that.
I have to question how much some of you have even listened to stats in a quiet environment. I know Marv has owned some decent stats in the past and I remember a loaner of the 307(?) going around a while back. Almost every stat has close to zero sound isolation, much less than HD6x0s. Given that, how much can you honestly judge detail extraction in a meet environment? I think you can get a good idea of how a headphone sounds at a meet (I'm not a "meet impressions are worthless" guy), but I think resolution is the one area that's a bit sketchy to judge at a meet. Let's not kid ourselves about how loud meets are.
Comparing them side by side at home with a number of different amps, the difference in detail extraction is night and day. I'm starting to wonder if maybe the technologies perform differently at various volume levels. I know Marv, Anax, and OJ listen at like 120 dB and I listen at like 30 dB. :P Not sure about ultra. Maybe at really high volumes the stats are presenting the same detail level they do at low volumes, and the dynamics don't start to reveal their max detail until you start to pump up the volume? I think that might kinda make sense since stats are in a balanced, linear force field and dynamics are in a single sided magnetic field.
BTW, I want to buy some Valhalla with HD650 now. Fucking hobby :)p2
I have to question how much some of you have even listened to stats in a quiet environment.
Maybe at really high volumes the stats are presenting the same detail level they do at low volumes, and the dynamics don't start to reveal their max detail until you start to pump up the volume?
1-Speaking for myself, you we've both been to private mini-meets in quiet environments. I know myself, OJ and UB have all had the 009 in our house on extended loans before. I consider the 009 the most resolving and capable phone Stax has made to date. At this point, a 009 rig would be my choice back-up rig for less distracting and low volume listening when I need to work or have situational awareness. Not worth the cost at this point and my 800 rig is still priority but I'm finally close to
complete with it. About 85% done after adding Yggy. Eventually I'll make a 009 rig unless Stax or someone else makes a better stat. Still considering the HE1000 too depending on it's affinity to modding.
2-Yes, that's correct. x100
That said, FR isn't exactly what's being argued in terms of resolution. Like Marv said, ability to dig up low level info, though FR does have a role in that.
2-that is correct 100 dB's is minimum to bring out the potential in dynamics. :) or so I have been told.This feels to be very true for HD800. For me the big thing contributing to its 'fatigue'-ness.
I agree with ultra about Lambdas not sealing well and thus not getting anything like that bass extension. The newer Lambdas seem to do a lot better with bass extension, likely because of the pads. That said, FR isn't exactly what's being argued in terms of resolution. Like Marv said, ability to dig up low level info, though FR does have a role in that.
The Sennheiser Veil and Other Issueshttp://www.innerfidelity.com/content/very-important-sennheiser-hd-580-hd-600-and-hd-650
In a time when overly detailed headphones built by Grado, Audio Technica, and Stax pre-Omega were considered the norm among headphone enthusiasts, the HD 600 was heard as polite...too polite for ears used to the up-front treble and poor bass response of high-end cans at the time. And so the relentless damning began, gently bludgeoning the HD 600 away from it's first place position at every opportunity with the fluffy club curse: "The Sennheiser Veil."
Are people missing the fact that Marv is talking about recent production HD650s that no longer sound veiled?
It's not that clear in Marv's post that HD6x0 evolutions over the years did get rid of the Sennheiser veil('s myth ?).
So is the new package design a strong indicator for the new version? I want to make sure and minimize returning headphones (which I strongly dislike).
People were talking about black boxes like the HD800 one I believe.
- HD650 sounds a bit more refined to my ears in ways that are harder to explain, but it's subtle.
HD650 seems to have a more well-integrated soundstage. I'm not sure what to attribute that to either.
So, slightly different tuning aside, the 650 is "technically" the better of the two? I'm not too concerned with tuning, because from what I understand they don't seem to be all that different, and I can always adjust them a bit with EQ if need be.
Hmm...well, $90 isn't a huge difference, and I do greatly prefer the look of the HD650s. They seem to be at least slightly better technically by most accounts as well, so I think I might go for the 650s.
My first one was bought new 3-4 years ago and my current one was bought used and of unknown provenance, but both sounded pretty much the same to me. They both came in silver boxes and neither sounded 'veiled' to me. They're just not artificially hot like most other headphones are.
Since I don't think I've ever actually heard a 'veiled' pair, I'm tempted to say that's where this whole 'veil' business came from in the first place. People just didn't like that they weren't as bright as Beyers, Grados, or ATs. Assuming there was a 'veil' which is now fixed, this is probably part of the reason why that meme still sticks around.
My first one was bought new 3-4 years ago and my current one was bought used and of unknown provenance, but both sounded pretty much the same to me. They both came in silver boxes and neither sounded 'veiled' to me. They're just not artificially hot like most other headphones are.
Since I don't think I've ever actually heard a 'veiled' pair, I'm tempted to say that's where this whole 'veil' business came from in the first place. People just didn't like that they weren't as bright as Beyers, Grados, or ATs. Assuming there was a 'veil' which is now fixed, this is probably part of the reason why that meme still sticks around.
If it turns out you prefer the HD600 sound more, you can just buy the drivers and replace the HD650 ones. You get to keep the 650 look with 600 sound.
So to me the whole 'veil' thing can be attributed to FR related things.
THD and CSD is similar for HD650 old and new pads ...
This veil is not FR dependent.
Dunno. I do have a aliens-like sort of head so maybe that's the reason it doesn't bother me that much. The HD800s Anax have sit on my head like most stats.
Interstingly, I don't think pressure on the HD6x0 is necessary. At least they don't clamp as much as some closed cans. It is what it is.
HD600/650 clamp for me was pretty horrible out of the box. 30 mins and I had a huge headache. I stretched both of them out over a bookshelf speaker for a day or two and also bent the exposed metal part of the headband out a bit when fully extended. Unfortunately, I accidentally stretched my HD650 out over my bookshelf speaker for longer than I meant to, and it prematurely flattened the pads a bit (though, less stiff foam, can't complain too much). :) But loosening the clamp on either headphone measurably brings up the treble a bit, which might actually be preferable on the HD650.
Not a whole lot...just a smidge, really. I can't remember if I posted all my data or just have it stored somewhere on my computer. Brings up the treble a tad and I think it might also slightly lower the mid-bass hump. Just a wee bit brighter sounding. Or I'm crazy. Decide for yourself!
So to me the whole 'veil' thing can be attributed to FR related things.
THD and CSD is similar for HD650 old and new pads ...
I took the pads off mine and left them stretched across some books for a week.
Anyone using the Yggy as a DAC with the 650's? I'm thinking of selling the LCD-3F's to someone who appreciates the Audeze house sound, and buying the Yggdrasil. Chain would be Yggy - WA2 - 650's. Yes/no?
one word: determination.
Told ya, mav!
It's much easier to to let them sit for a week when they're not your main headphone.
Just needed a little more stretching I guess. 8)
Anyone using the Yggy as a DAC with the 650's? I'm thinking of selling the LCD-3F's to someone who appreciates the Audeze house sound, and buying the Yggdrasil. Chain would be Yggy - WA2 - 650's. Yes/no?
It's much easier to to let them sit for a week when they're not your main headphone.
Anyone using the Yggy as a DAC with the 650's? I'm thinking of selling the LCD-3F's to someone who appreciates the Audeze house sound, and buying the Yggdrasil. Chain would be Yggy - WA2 - 650's. Yes/no?yes.
Now that you got them 'burned in'! :)) :)) :-*
Extend the cups down, then bend the exposed interior metal of the headband itself. Really the only way to make it permanent. They will be harder to adjust afterwards, though.
Does it count as burn-in if it reverses afterwords? They're tightening up again. I wonder what kind of magic self healing polymer that headband is made out of. You could probably make car body panels with it or something.
I think even the lowest setting on heat gun will be too much. Time to borrow a hair drier...
Have you tried heating the headband before?
I stretched it out again, hit it with a hair drier for about 5 minutes, let it cool down for another 30, and it's holding far better than than just stretching for half an hour would. I'll have to give it another few days and see what happens.
Or you could just bend the metal in less than a minute and be done with it forever and ever. ;) Your method might fit better though.
Don't try anything you might regret. The high pressure is part of the design for the best possible bass and transducer's damping.
Just don't keep changing their position on your head. It's the skin irritation from the frequent position changes that annoys you most.
Don't try anything you might regret. The high pressure is part of the design for the best possible bass and transducer's damping.
Just don't keep changing their position on your head. It's the skin irritation from the frequent position changes that annoys you most.
^Try the first post.
We need a better way to explain "resolution" to planar people...I think Marv, Anax, ultra and I all hear it but we keep running into this descriptor conundrum when trying to explain it.Just finally reading through this thread, and this ^^^ is EXACTLY how I feel comparing the ability of the 650's vs the LCD-3F's. Thank you. I have never heard a planar that offers the resolution I hear from the 650's/800's. I would really enjoy if I could, but I haven't. The mistake I've made multiple times is thinking that more expensive headphones would naturally offer better resolution. Aha, fool me, you can't get fooled again!
...
Resolution is, as I have come to define it independently from what I hear as well as what I glean from others, the ability to portray information on the recording. The ability to render the picture/frame in its entirety if we want to use the video analogy. It's not a big leap to extend that definition to include both microdetail (plankton, inner-whatever, etc) and spatial information (ambient cues, precise imaging, etc.)
Just finally reading through this thread, and this ^^^ is EXACTLY how I feel comparing the ability of the 650's vs the LCD-3F's. Thank you. I have never heard a planar that offers the resolution I hear from the 650's/800's. I would really enjoy if I could, but I haven't. The mistake I've made multiple times is thinking that more expensive headphones would naturally offer better resolution. Aha, fool me, you can't get fooled again!
I have never heard a planar that offers the resolution I hear from the 650's/800's.
It sounds crazy to the uninitiated because the planar drive mechanism is better on paper and a lot of people seem to expect cool-looking, exotic tech and big price tags to go hand-in-hand with superior performance. But the proof is in the pudding. Dynamics tend to be more resolving for whatever reason.
It sounds crazy to the uninitiated because the planar drive mechanism is better on paper and a lot of people seem to expect cool-looking, exotic tech and big price tags to go hand-in-hand with superior performance. But the proof is in the pudding. Dynamics tend to be more resolving for whatever reason. I'm not a big believer in Marv's crazy idea that the tension kills resolution, but there's gotta be some reason they have that sound.
So are planars like anti-aliased images vs true resolution of voice coils (more polygons/pixels)?
I may be incorrect, but from what I understand, the planar membrane is driven from traces outward, and there is a lot of trace area compared to the voice coil. For planars, this could account for the bass (less break up, since more membrane area is directly moved) and clarity (similar reasons, and frequencies are evolved from the large area of the traces). Speed is arguable. The voice coil takes up less area in the membrane proportionally than a planar driver, so the sound is evolved only from a ring, which also simulates a point source of sound. So although the sound may be less clear in the sense of say being from many areas in the driver and reinforcing itself a la chorus (planar), you get the clarity and resolution of one area/ring of the driver a la a solo (voice coil), and thus better hear the timbre, or with headphones, resolution.
So are planars like anti-aliased images vs true resolution of voice coils (more polygons/pixels)?
CAL, MA100, R10.
Honest question for you. What, if any, dynamics do this besides Senns? It's pretty much always the HD600/650/800 mentioned around here.
CALs have "resolution"? I have a pair, and I think they have a nice tonality and timbre, but I don't feel like they resolve much detail. Maybe this is where the definition of "resolution" is the key - in this case maybe the CALs don't have any algae or jellyfish or whatever you guys call it, but have the other cues.
In hindsight I should have just said nothing about CAL or MA100, because this seems to cause confusion.
The Senns do seem to be the most resolving dynamic headphones that I've heard. Other ones...the Fostex TH900 is pretty resolving despite its effed up tonal balance. I like the DT880 if you can match it with the right tubes...that's a good dynamic sound. If we want to talk cheapies, I think a cheap dynamic like the Tascam TH02 is pretty resolving for $30. I'd prefer a modded TH02 to a modded T50rp.
Overall I think it's more the implementation of a given technology than just that's something's a dynamic, or a 'stat, or a planar magnetic.
With the tweaks, the HD650 sounds faster, crisper, more lively, less over damped. I would not attempt these tweaks on the HD600 though. Overall, maybe a few db too much mid-bass, but everything else sounds just right.
I Feel like the HD800 + HD650 could be my end-game and would surely cover all bases for my music enjoyment.Exactly my thoughts too!
Got the HD650.. again. This is the third pair I've owned. You'd think I'd have learned after the second pair. Nope.. I'll get the obligatory statement out of the way: I won't sell them this time.Chain yourself to the 650's and then put on a blindfold.
but I probably will.. cause something "shinier" will catch my eye (another round with the HD800, perhaps?)..
and then I'll regret it..
and then buy a fourth pair.
It's inevitable.
I. am. idiot.
@purr1n, have you considered testing your new HD650 with an older one? Mine is 4 or 5 years old, and I'm curious if any other changes happened when the packaging changed...My first pair were the updated drivers, but sound a lot darker compared to the ones I bought last fall. The newer ones seem to offer a more linear response; instead of having an overall emphasis of dark, rich mids, the treble of the new ones sounds much more resolved.
I Feel like the HD800 + HD650 could be my end-game and would surely cover all bases for my music enjoyment.
Chain yourself to the 650's and then put on a blindfold.
If Sennheiser comes up with yet another revision of the HD650's I'll buy again (although I have the latest one atm)!
^that is unless they turn the 650's into crap like momentums, urbanites, HD630VBs or something (highly unlikely but you never know by looking at the last few headphones/in-ears they made).
Nah, the 600 and 650 will never be turned into crap. Look at Porsche. Purists cried foul when the Cayenne SUV was introduced, saying it would ruin the 911 in the process. 13 years later, the 911 is still the 911, and that's not going to change no matter how many suburban mommy-wagons they sell. Sennheiser is following the money right now. It doesn't mean they are completely abandoning the reputation they have built up amongst audiophiles and music lovers.I hope so. I heard they will release a high-end open back not too far in the future. I hope they will come up with another great like the 650 or the 800. But then heck, the 800 is still so hard to get the best out of.
A better HD800 will not be so hard to get the best out of. Then we can plug it into our iPhones. :)p17Speaking of which, I saw a Korean news report a few months ago where the person plugs the HD800 into his phone and listens and then compares it to some craptistic $4 headphone and ends up with a conclusion that the sound is about the same, if not worse. HD800 sounds harsh and is a bad deal according to him because it's $2300 (which is wrong). It's actually around $1100 in Korea.
Inspired by this thread, I moseyed on down to the Headphone Bar to get myself a pair of HD650s. I ended up trying out a bunch of headphones, and falling madly in love with the HD800s. They had one pair in stock, and there was no way I was going home without them, budget be damned! I'm never going to let these go - this is the smartest foolish purchase I've ever made. :D
What rig did you hear the 800's from before you bought them?
Vali does have more resolution than the WA7. Glad you are enjoying it. Rest assured you are on the right path and they will scale like crazy if you ever choose upgrade the chain. Definitely money well spent.
With any luck, I'll be experiencing that scaling soon - I just signed up for the EC Black Widow.
What phones do you guys consider definitely better than the HD650? I've tried or owned many phones $2000 & under, but I really haven't found anything I like as well or better yet. I'd like to find a great classical headphone, and the 650 is perhaps a little to dark to be ideal for classical, although it's my favorite for everything else. I usually find the HD800 to be a little to bright to sound realistic.Hmmm maybe the 800's modded or driven by tubes that are gently rolling off the treble? I'm a huge fan of the 650's myself, and can't really stand many other headphones. I also find the 800's fatiguing, but I have sensitivity to treble (hyperacusis). I adore the 800's, I just wish I could listen to them forever like the 650's. My ears literally get pained. Glad you also enjoy the 650's... they're beautiful.
What phones do you guys consider definitely better than the HD650? I've tried or owned many phones $2000 & under, but I really haven't found anything I like as well or better yet. I'd like to find a great classical headphone, and the 650 is perhaps a little to dark to be ideal for classical, although it's my favorite for everything else. I usually find the HD800 to be a little to bright to sound realistic.
So basicly I should sell my LCD-3Fs and buy HD650?
FIFY.
Yes.
Great! I'll have a listen to HD650 tomorrow then! Is there any special serialnr or something I should look for in terms of getting the latest produced can? They only have the sennheiser hdvd800 amplifier at the shop but I asume thats fine.
I feel horrible that so many of you were bamboozled into buying the LCD-3F. That's a lot of money. You could have gotten a used EC Zana Deux and some high quality hookers for that money.
How would you describe an EC hooker? Warm and tubey or analytical and clinical? Is an external power supply included or would that be extra?Well if a hooker is called the Black widow it sets off some alarmbells :spank:
How would you describe an EC hooker? Warm and tubey or analytical and clinical? Is an external power supply included or would that be extra?I'm hoping wet and warm p:/ p:3
I feel horrible that so many of you were bamboozled into buying the LCD-3F. That's a lot of money. You could have gotten a used EC Zana Deux and some high quality hookers for that money.
I feel horrible that so many of you were bamboozled into buying the LCD-3F. That's a lot of money. You could have gotten a used EC Zana Deux and some high quality hookers for that money.
I covered the HD650's back side with small cut bits of microfiber cloth (costco, blue) adhered by elmer all purpose washable school gluestick, putting cloth on gluestick then on headphone. I covered the bare plastic, except the circular part of the driver itself, and I put bits of free nonglued cloth into the slots to cover the steel damping mesh. The glue is washable, easily removable, and adheres weakly.
It's more listenable. The treble is smoother, mids are more textured and clear, and the bass isn't so bloated (less bass bump, less roll off, less distortion) and hits a little harder, faster. A little less claustrophobic. I have some other mods in place, though. Can anyone corroborate?
Pics and or list of other mods, please.
How does changstar look at Philips fidelio x2 compared to HD650??
How does changstar look at Philips fidelio x2 compared to HD650??
Crystal clear sound and very good bass is importent to me (electronic music head, not basshead tho), will HD650 give me this when amped to the next level? :D
HD650 + Rag is good?
The HD650 are $300 @ Buysonic
https://www.buysonic.com/products/sennheiser-hd-650/
The HD650 are $300 @ Buysonic
The HD650 are $300 @ Buysonic
https://www.buysonic.com/products/sennheiser-hd-650/
Thanks for the tip on the HD650@buysonic. Ordered a pair.
I bit the bullet and took the foam from behind the drivers off last night. I was expecting a more drastic change but it was pretty subtle. Still sounds like the 650, which is great, but with a tad more openness and clarity. Nice.
So does anyone own both HD650 and HD800
and still prefers the HD650 or likes it as a different flavour to the HD800?
The HD800 is my only open headphone. I'm really thinking about getting the HD650.
My pair from the Buysonic deal arrived yesterday. First impression.... damn these pads reek! p:0 Guess they need to do a little off gassing or whatever lol
Anyhow, they are burning in right but even in the first few hours it's obvious why these things are the price/performance benchmark against which everything gets compared. Completely competent everywhere with no obvious faults.
I need to get a balanced cable so I can get the best out of them with Ragnarok. Anyone see anything wrong with this one?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-SENNHEISER-HEADPHONE-CABLE-HD600-HD650-MOGAMI-CARDAS-NEUTRIK-1-4-or-BALANCED/171649354489?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D32936%26meid%3D70f63b6472254d53ac849be255b7ae0b%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D121687078286
I could of course re-terminate a stock cable but for the $20 difference I don't think it's worth my time to order a bunch of parts and learn to solder. (and no doubt fuck up a few times)
Anyone have a recommendation for the least expensive balanced cable for the HD650 worth purchasing? I pre-ordered the Liquid Carbon, so I need something balanced, and these are really my only headphones that can easily get there (I do have a Nighthawk on loan that I'll probably grab a cable for as well, but I might not have them anymore by the time I get the Cavalli).
Anyone have a recommendation for the least expensive balanced cable for the HD650 worth purchasing?
Can you use a soldering iron? If so, re-terminate. Don't waste your money. The stock HD650 cable is pretty good.
Is your HD650 modification the same as your HD600 mod? (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2432.msg68458.html#msg68458 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2432.msg68458.html#msg68458))Yes.
What's your current amp?I have to make do with my Vali and the Leckerton UHA-6S.MKII
Yes.
Did you try marvs mods?Yes I did, plus lots more approaches and I finally ended up preferring what I posted.
So did you remove the stock foam from behind the driver before adding your damping, or did you leave it in place? And does it have the "coin" mod, or is that stock as well?Stock foam is kept in place behind the driver, the front foam has been removed, BUT a ring of foam is kept UNDER the pad lid, which connects the pad to the baffle. There are 4 holes in the baffle. You can keep the bass response by covering the holes with foam (like with the stock foam in place) or decrease the bass by removing the foam.
Can you use a soldering iron? If so, re-terminate. Don't waste your money. The stock HD650 cable is pretty good.Got my stock cable today and stripped the wire after cutting the connector off. One side has red and copper wire, the other green and copper. I assume the copper on each side are ground and the colored wires are the signal...?
What planar do you think would compliment the hd650+hd800s?
I am looking for something with that super tight and punchy bass that only planars have for electronic/hiphop
(oh and no ching chong 1000s and no abyss 666s)
Koss ESP950
it will change your life broseph
as I see it I got a few options:
lcd2 pre fazor
lcd3 pre fazor
he560
he6
any im missing?
If i get the 650 drivers how close will it get to a 650?I imagine it should sound the same. The drivers are sold already installed in HD650 baffles. The only things remaining from the HD600 that could affect the sound would be the grilles and earpads. Aren't those almost the same between the 600 and 650?
The drivers are sold already installed in HD650 baffles.Aha i did not know this, i imagined if there was any difference besides the driver it would come from the baffle/mesh. So this is good news!
Will the HD 650's transient response (especially in the bass) be quick enough the tremolo picked down-tuned guitars and double kick drums of old school death and black metal?
Even for albums with actual acoustic kicks like Motorhead's Overkill/Ace of Spades and Immolation's Dawn of Possession? Where you can hear that 16th and 32nd notes are softer than eighth notes? I'm sure it would handle typewriter kick samples (Morrisound death metal and modern sterile computer metal) with the bass sucked out of them fine. I'm just nervous buying the HD 650 due to all the reports of them being slow despite needing an open neutral to warm headphone with no treble emphasis or ringing. The ringing and treble on my HD 25s is driving my allergy and childhood infection caused tinnitus nuts. Parametric equalization just ends up highlighting the ringing!
You still need a good resolving and powerful amp for 6xx. What are u using?I have an O2+ODAC combo I bought as my last few laptops' Realteks had a ton of annoying background noise. The one in my Thinkpad T440s can't even drive portable headphones to an acceptable volume with not slammed recordings like 80s CDs. The brightness will mesh well with the laid-back upper mids and treble of the HD 650?
@Judeus : What music are you listen to ?
everything and anything really, the only thing i dont really like the 650s with is edm or hiphop/rap/rnb, since the bass is well, mid-fi
I'm probably just in the honeymoon phase and will revert back to my hd800s eventually as my daily driver
im getting my iggy/rggy tomorrow from schiit. Am interested to test the 650 on the rok.
two more thing on my checklist are:
an eddie current tube amp
a planar can with visceral punchy bass, most likely will grab the he-6 since the rok can drive them phenomenally
my setup will be
computer>6 jitter bugs(one for every usb port)>geeklps4>lightspeed10g cable>schiit wyrd>uptone audio regen>.....
Jkjk
computer>wyrd>iggy>rggy>650/800 (balanced with modded stock cables) interconnects just standard snake oil free canare cable with neutrick xlr connectors and monoprice usb 2.0 cables
also will be using the kef ls50s and some old Yamaha studio monitors hooked up to the rag
pretty good reference rig, I think. Again Id like to add a EC tube amp and an He-6 for it to be complete
portable rig is pretty crap right now
fiio x3ii (terrible) > dununnununununu2000j/UERM
I just got a cayin n5 in today, I will probably right a review on it if its good, if not, I likely wont bother. It is a very interesting little DAP though.
Rag has no problem driving HE-6. But hard to say if you will like the sound or not. Some people like it. Some people don't.
There was a mid-line Krell much lauded by the HF crowd for HE-6. It sounded like shit. That Krell made a bunch of farts with the HE-6 in the bass on a Daft Punk album and was bested by a 3 watt tube amp during the same listening session.
A passive preamp into a Pass amp might be the phenomenal setup you are looking for. It's all relative, based on personal preferences, and how much you want to spend.
OK, decided to learn how to re-terminate cable (I can get soldering help at the office) so I ordered a Sennheiser replacement cable off Amazon Canada for $32 (good deal!).
Problem is I'm having a super pain in the ass time finding a place to get the Neutrik connector. Probably going to end up paying $20USD for the damn connector after shipping... >:( (not a good deal)
To me, the biggest difference is bass and probably the soundstage if i understand the term correctly. HD650 feels very.. narrow? It's like the music is very close to ears (obviously not closed-cans close), but at the same time very distant if that makes sense? It's right HERE, but not really. Very strange sound. And it becomes even more apparent when i put on X2's. They sound really wide, i can't even tell where the sound is coming from, because it feels like sound originates somewhere outside the cups. The bass is superior, it had more punch where it needed. Also, X2's draws you into music, while HD650 produced music disappears. It's not engaging.It seems to me that the X2's may seem to have more perceived bass response with the Modi2/Magni2 combo. I haven't heard the HD-650's driven by the Magni2 myself, but I have heard the X2's, and did notice their bass.
You shouldn't be using high gain on the X2 because they're very low impedance. Do you have the switch on the Magni 2 flipped for high gain (rear switch)? The 600 might need it, but the X2 definitely shouldn't use it.
If you are using high gain like Luckbad said, it is possible that you amp is in high impedance mode (not sure what the output impedance of the Magni 2 is in high gain). Note the X2 has a large impedance hump in the bass area but still south of 45 ohms. This can result in even more bass out of the X2.
As for the soundstage, maybe just double check that the HD-650's are wired properly...
Do i have to re-educate my ears?
Do i have to re-educate my ears?
Do i have to re-educate my ears? I think i've read enough of this forum to trust all of you more than Tyll or head-fi or headfonia. And the consensus seems to be that the setup i have can be an end-game for non-audiophile
I think i've read enough of this forum to trust all of you more than Tyll or head-fi or headfonia. And the consensus seems to be that the setup i have can be an end-game for non-audiophile.
And i like X2's more.
I'm not an audiophile by any sort of definition, i just like listening to music. To me, the biggest difference is bass and probably the soundstage if i understand the term correctly. HD650 feels very.. narrow? It's like the music is very close to ears (obviously not closed-cans close), but at the same time very distant if that makes sense? It's right HERE, but not really. Very strange sound. And it becomes even more apparent when i put on X2's. They sound really wide, i can't even tell where the sound is coming from, because it feels like sound originates somewhere outside the cups. The bass is superior, it had more punch where it needed. Also, X2's draws you into music, while HD650 produced music disappears. It's not engaging.
The only thing i don't understand is why i hear background hiss with X2's while HD650 keeps it clean.
What should i do changstar? I don't want to choose the wrong one, and i took HD650 to leave the mid-fi purgatory. But it seems X2's sound better for me. Thank you.
I know there will be purists who'll recoil in horror at the idea of using EQ and that's fair enough. I don't have a problem with it because I consider using a tube in the first place to be a form of EQ so what the hell. I'd be interested to hear what you guys thinkNothing wrong with using EQ if it gets you the sound you're looking for, i also use it for some problematic headphones that are beyond modding or just not worth the effort to do so.
You didn't choose wrong.The soundstage and speakers in a room tuning of the 580/600/650 series makes them better for studio music than the HD 800 and HE1000, technically better drivers be damned. There is no artificial width that can put the plucking of the guitar string and distortion in different places or break up the drum kit like an AKG or HD800: different drums panned to different places is seriously messed up on these. I also don't feel the 650 is overdampened for rock and metal; I found long term listening (hours a day, almost every day) of those genres' forwardly miced and mixed drum kits to be slightly grating on the slightly bright 580/600 but perfect on the current slightly dark 650. It lets you disappear into the music without fearing some animal high hat basher is going to ruin your hearing. The veiled black driver one sucked though so thanks for starting this thread which led me to give the current version a try. If you only listen to an occasional rock album you might prefer the HD 600 as it will make the kit sparkle a tiny bit more than on the mix. For orchestral music? Yeah you might something wider and brighter too but I preferred intimate material like the Kronos Quartet on my "metal cans."
I wouldn't argue against the points you brought up with the HD650. Stage is narrow and depth is flat with HD650s. HD650s in stock form are a bit overdamped or boring (hence the mods I suggested, although I wouldn't suggest mods because the differences are not huge). The X2 are more efficient (the noise you mentioned) and more fun (which equates to a bit too much boom and tizz for me).
Not going to suggest that you spend more money on stuff, but keep in mind that some of the folks here running the HD650s are running them off seriously good DACs / amps. The "scaling" thing is very real; and from what I've noted, a huge reason for many discrepancies. Even then, among the guys who have TOTL type rigs, there are a people who prefer the "lesser" HD650 over the superior HD800, HE1000, or LCD3.
If i would keep HD650 over X2's, i would need to upgrade over time. What would be the next step for DAC and AMP? And what should i expect in terms of sound improvement?
The soundstage and speakers in a room tuning of the 580/600/650 series makes them better for studio music than the HD 800 and HE1000, technically better drivers be damned. There is no artificial width that can put the plucking of the guitar string and distortion in different places or break up the drum kit like an AKG or HD800: different drums panned to different places is seriously messed up on these. I also don't feel the 650 is overdampened for rock and metal; I found long term listening (hours a day, almost every day) of those genres' forwardly miced and mixed drum kits to be slightly grating on the slightly bright 580/600 but perfect on the current slightly dark 650. It lets you disappear into the music without fearing some animal high hat basher is going to ruin your hearing. The veiled black driver one sucked though so thanks for starting this thread which led me to give the current version a try. If you only listen to an occasional rock album you might prefer the HD 600 as it will make the kit sparkle a tiny bit more than on the mix. For orchestral music? Yeah you might something wider and brighter too but I preferred intimate material like the Kronos Quartet on my "metal cans."
The scaling is huge with recordings too. Mixes and masters start to mean a lot more. I've even found the HD 580/600/650 drivers to scale the tone better guitar amps used for tracking in a more lifelike way than lesser midprice headphones. They really make it clear how much better just plugging into a JCM 800 head sounds than a crappy Valvestate is and expose studio tricks like digital reamping.
The real questions you need to answer first are what sound is your sound and what are you listening for? What sort of music quality does most of your preferred music have? Can you stand to hear flaws in recordings or do you want to just listen to everything without worry?
Doesn't help that the AAL album doesn't sound particularly good from a recording/mastering standpoint
This was my first experience with anything tubey, and convinced me to get the $350 Valhalla 2. The improvement with this amp was much larger than with the Vali, and easily noticeable. Highly recommended around here, and I can vouch.
Again, YMMV depending on what gear you feed the HD650. Much pickier than X2 and much more technically capable in nearly all regards the better your setup. The DAC/amp combo you're using is certainly a great budget setup, but it's not going to get the best out of the HD650
What realistically could i expect if i'd get Valhalla2, and would keep modi2 (or upgrade to Bifrost)? Gungnir would be out of the question for now. Would i get better imaging and bass depth?
Mm... I'd just like to say that if you think the HD600/650 cannot represent low frequency positional information, then I think you may want to try more source gears.?????? Misquote/misreading? I never said they couldn't. I just said they had a more intimate soundstage compaged to AKGs and flagships which is a positive for studio music. I think they sound perfectly fine on my O2
I used to be of the same opinions, until I heard really good HD600/650 rigs that did just that, and... my jaw dropped. When driven from certain rigs, the HD600/650 sound really sticky and muddy on the bottom, just like you described.
Actually it's very situational:WELL NOTHING IS BEING ACCENTUATED! It's djent so shitty solid state head that means the guitar tone lacks dynamics and then you have brickwall mixing and mastering that is using dynamic range compression to lower the peaks of everything else to the guitars so the drums aren't dynamic (if they weren't already sample replaced) and then slamming the shit out of it. Be thankful the instruments are relatively audible and it isn't clipped!
Metal (Slipknot, Animal As Leaders) - X2
Rock (Pure Reason Revolution, Bad Suns) - X2
Pop (Lana Del Rey, Florence + The Machine) - X2
Electronic (Daft Punk, Röyksopp) - tie
Soul (The Internet, Jamie Woon) - HD650
Trip Hop (Bonobo, Massive Attack) - HD650
Hip Hop (Onra, Flying Lotus) - HD650
Most of the songs could go either way, it's not like one or the other sounds so much better or worse. I feel like electronic music with a lot of bass goes better with HD650, because then i can counteract the low end, and vice versa with instrumental music and X2. I don't know if it's right but that's what i take from this list.
But the biggest difference i feel when listening to Animals As Leaders. It's right there, the thing why i prefer X2. It looks like HD650 doesn't know how to behave when playing AAL. It sounds just wrong, i cannot understand the music. It sounds cleaner, but with that everything sounds "at the same time" with nothing being accentuated, nothing to grab onto. I now know how complete chaos sounds like.
Could someone give a listen with HD650?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbA3jxab4A0
So in essence X2's "coloring" of the sound fixes the music somewhat and helps bad recordings to sound better while HD650 needs to be feeded only good source files to shine? I'd guess the better staging helps as well. Makes sense.The V shape of the headphone is making the emphasized bass bring out kicks and the treble might be making the shelved snare and cymbals stand out. On well mixed records the bass will just be too boomy and the treble will make lofi records unlistenable. Animals as Leaders' production sucks but the recording isn't truly offensive. You probably wouldn't want to listen to any metal classics with truly fucked up productions on the X2, eg. Norwegian black metal, Demilich's clipped drums, Carcass - Reek of Putrefaction.
?????? Misquote/misreading? I never said they couldn't. I just said they had a more intimate soundstage compaged to AKGs and flagships which is a positive for studio music. I think they sound perfectly fine on my O2
The HD600/650 are capable of soundstage that's probably second only to HD800 and a few more headphones.
What's your opinion/recommendation on a rig that can do that for the HD650?
the Senns which are more linear and with less than ideal power need to be cranked up making more flaws obvious
How are you coming to your 90dB figure btw? Do you own an SPL meter?
Th 6xx is not an entry level recommendation. It is a mid-fi to even top tier recommendation for people willing to drive it well and use good sources. It was never recommended as a headphone that can sound best from your iphone like an x2.
HD650. Schiit Magni + Modi. $99 + $99. No kidding. No schiit. No risk other than shipping costs.
(http://114.imagebam.com/download/IrfuAniRxBYQ2fn7Ps_EuA/43438/434372438/HD650.jpg)
I believe X2's have a leg up on certain tracks over HD650 not because of the bass or the fun factor, it's because of the soundstage. I cannot understand why such narrow soundstage, for an expensive can like that, is accepted as normal. No one talks about this issue. Before buying, i haven't read anything like this. HD650 is not a closed can, and i'm not saying it sounds like one, but it should be definitely its forte as an open HP.
Obviously i'm not an audiophile, and this may sound very stupid for all i know haha. But i challenge your recommendation for a "budget audiophile headphone". It should be X2, which is cheaper by itself, and doesn't even need 200$ dac+amp to achieve comparable sound.
Sounds like a budget build suggestion to me, otherwise you'd recommend to return HD650 if someone's not ready to spend serious cash to drive it. I would argue that two times cheaper option is definitely a better buy while getting arguably better sound.
Also, just watched Tylls X2 review, and at the end of it he basically said that X2 is a better buy if you dont want to invest on very good dac and amp. Someone said a few pages ago that this is the guy to trust.
This is how I found the HD650 to image, until I removed the foam discs at the back of the drivers, as described in OP
I'm not sure where these "closed can" "narrow soundstage" issues speak is coming from
This bass in the back, strings on the side and vocals in the front from an X2 sound like complete BS to me
Personally, If I preferred staying with the $200 schiit stack and wanted neutral sound with wider SS I'd look to the HD558/598. Much cheaper than the X2 or 6xx on most days. Won't be as warm, forgiving or bassy as the X2 though.
Well, there was talk on the X2 making the Leaderboard a few week back. It was pretty close, until I personally decided to nix it. Your (foxfluent) arguments have almost convinced me to reinstate the X2 perhaps on a conditional basis. My reasons for nixing the X2 as Leaderboard material were as follows:
I'd really think it should be there. Lets say someone wants a really good sound, something better than PX200, but not something that breaks the bank and is not planning to move up the chain. That guy searches the net, finds changstar, reads the suggestions, finds the leaderboards, buys X2 as the "best recommended hassle free cheap good sounding headphone" and you have a happy guy with a good sound on his head.
I agree that HD650 reveals more of the song even with this setup, but it's not always the case. I could write down entire albums where X2 was more revealing for me just because of that sound stage. X2 is really warm sounding HP, but not to the point of loosing clarity. Instruments sound very full and lush and clear. The biggest problem is when the soundstage of recording is cramming X2 inside the head, that's when it starts to loose clarity.
T1 is overly sharp if i remember what i've read? This is a deal breaker for everyone. Especially these days where not everyone is listening to 80's and 90's tracks. X2 on the other hand is not an extreme. It's not a boomy mess or a basshead HP. It's a good HP for engaging listen, and for background listen as well i believe.
They overlap strongly and make a circle? It's obviously my fault that i can't communicate fluently about this topic. Sounds good though.
HD558/598 would not be able to perform on a lot of tracks i believe, especially considering more contemporary music.
Two days until i have to return HD650. Might be my last chance to try or i'll never know, though Marvey said it wouldn't make that much of a difference, if it does in the soundstage, i would definitely notice. I'll sleep over it.Consider keeping them and getting a pair of taller pads, there's someone around who installed the HM5 angled velour pads successfully which are pretty deep. I'm pretty sure they will increase the perceived width.
That option is already in the leaderboards, I think. It's the Brainwavz HM5 (or the equivalent rebranded/renamed ones). It's much cheaper than the X2 or HD6x0, so definitely will break the bank LESS than the X2, it's also closed back
AKG K7XX
Nice warm sound as opposed to the leaner and colder K701. Tonal balance less irregular than Q701. Slightly sharp and rougher in treble compared to HD600, but also less shrill in upper mids. Also a bit less resolving than HD600, but has marginally better quality bass. A Massdrop special at $200 that's hard to complain about.
They overlap strongly. Check this chart:
Sorry if I'm coming off strong on this. And I think I understand you well. I just don't think that what you are describing as soundstage correlates well with what I think you are hearing.
Because? The HD558/598 may not be as refined as the HD6x0, but they are not too far off sounding relative to other mid-fi cans.
I did not write this. Luis (LFF) did sometime ago. But I agree with much of what was said here and I believe it applies to the soundstage discussion:
Consider keeping them and getting a pair of taller pads, there's someone around who installed the HM5 angled velour pads successfully which are pretty deep. I'm pretty sure they will increase the perceived width.
Honestly, if it's worth penning pages and drawing diagrams just return the 650 and X2. You've already made a decision at this point. Move the discussion to the leaderboard thread and stop crapping in the 650 thread with this X2 stuff. As for me, forgiving and euphonic sounding stuff should never be on our leaderboard. Let other sites deal with that can o' worms. "But my ears like these phones for this song." Blah blah blah.
At least now we have a good example as to why the 6xx is often so underrated.
Two days until i have to return HD650. Might be my last chance to try or i'll never know, though Marvey said it wouldn't make that much of a difference, if it does in the soundstage, i would definitely notice. I'll sleep over it.
With the tweaks, the HD650 sounds faster, crisper, more lively, less over damped. I would not attempt these tweaks on the HD600 though. Overall, maybe a few db too much mid-bass, but everything else sounds just right. (I would ignore the roll-off past 10kHz in the FR graph, it's a measurement thing with how the microphone is angled on the measurement system.) Recordings which are a little bright like Midnight Oil Diesel and Dust are indeed a little bit bright. Recordings which are laid back like Natalie Merchant Tigerlily are laid-back, but not rolled off to shit. Taylor Swift's voice is a bit shouty, but not unbearably so. As I've said - just right.
Obviously i'm not an audiophile, and this may sound very stupid for all i know haha. But i challenge your recommendation for a "budget audiophile headphone". It should be X2, which is cheaper by itself, and doesn't even need 200$ dac+amp to achieve comparable sound.
One of the reasons why I can't like the HD600 or HD650 (Even more so for the 650) is the pressure it puts on my head. I have a larger than average head circumference, or so I would assume. As a result, the HD650 puts quite a bit of pressure on the top and sides of my head. I have tried stretching the headband, but it resulted in a broken headband that needed to be replaced.
Don't stretch the headband, stretch the metal. Fully extend it, then carefully bend the metal only (and don't touch the plastic or ear cups while doing it).
I have a giant head too, and I couldn't stand the HD650's comfort when I got it.
I actually put the headphones over the box they came in for the first couple of weeks. That helped a little and squished the crap out of my ear pads. Then I did it on the metal and it took 10 minutes. Now they are super comfy.
Sounds like a budget build suggestion to me, otherwise you'd recommend to return HD650 if someone's not ready to spend serious cash to drive it. I would argue that two times cheaper option is definitely a better buy while getting arguably better sound.
Also, just watched Tylls X2 review, and at the end of it he basically said that X2 is a better buy if you dont want to invest on very good dac and amp. Someone said a few pages ago that this is the guy to trust.
I think due to this thread the HD650 is by now a super duper overrated headphone. p:/
It's a good headphone regarding its price but if you switch from HD800 to HD650 ... poo :)p8
I have the older hd650's around 8 years old. Was wondering if just replacing the driver would give me the same sound as the newer version that came out late last year. Apparently you can buy two drivers for $105 direct from sennheiser. Or would I have to replace the whole cup because I also need the silver mesh?
I think due to this thread the HD650 is by now a super duper overrated headphone. p:/
It's a good headphone regarding its price but if you switch from HD800 to HD650 ... poo :)p8
I have the older hd650's around 8 years old. Was wondering if just replacing the driver would give me the same sound as the newer version that came out late last year. Apparently you can buy two drivers for $105 direct from sennheiser. Or would I have to replace the whole cup because I also need the silver mesh?
I'm rocking the Gumby + Valhalla 2 --> HD650's right now. Sounds fantastic. I love the warmer, musical, smooth nature of the HD650's. I also have HD800's which I'll mod soon.
Would modding the HD650's (removal of foam and the coin mod) bring them closer to the sound of Anax modded HD800's? I enjoy having some different flavours in headphones, so I actually wouldn't want to try and turn the HD650's into lesser HD800's.
Essentially, I'm pretty happy with the HD650's as they are right now, except for wishing for a little more soundstage depth.
I'm rocking the Gumby + Valhalla 2 --> HD650's right now. Sounds fantastic. I love the warmer, musical, smooth nature of the HD650's. I also have HD800's which I'll mod soon.
Nope. HD650 is not a super duper overrated headphone. And no, the HD800 does not shame the HD650. In fact, I can't stand an HD800 w/o Anax's mods.
Bring down the bass hump? I'm pretty sure I got a measurable (and subjective) increase in the mid-bass hump after the mods.
Bring down the bass hump? I'm pretty sure I got a measurable (and subjective) increase in the mid-bass hump after the mods.
Hmm... now you've got me second guessing myself. I don't really remember since I modded mine so quickly after I got them. But at the very least, the bass does sound cleaner while still being very impactful.
How do the mods affect the 650's speed, Hans? Particularly in the bass? I know it's not the fastest hp to begin with.. even when fed ample, hq voltage.. but if the modded 650's the bass is noticeably slower vs a stock 650, it might deter me from doing the mod(s).
Bring down the bass hump? I'm pretty sure I got a measurable (and subjective) increase in the mid-bass hump after the mods.
I think due to this thread the HD650 is by now a super duper overrated headphone. p:/That feeling you get when the drummer is hitting the cymbals with the sticks and not trying to drive them through your eardrum into your brain?
It's a good headphone regarding its price but if you switch from HD800 to HD650 ... poo :)p8
LOL! I've kept my HD600 stock, and I like it that way. Perhaps it could be improved, but not too worried about it currently.All Beyers need help with QC or the treble. The DT 990, 250 ohm version made the HD 800 look like the UE6000.
The 800 IMO does need help. Not as much as a DT990, but it does.
I heard a stock 800 with a GS-X and it definitively did not work for me. Heard the Anax moded one from Mike's Super-7 (+ other god like amp) and felt it was pretty good. Maybe the Anax moded 800 works with the GS-X, but I didn't try that.
So I just cut up my HD650's.
Coin mod and foam removal from the back of the driver.
Shiiiiiiiit. No negatives, imo. More air and precision. Still got that great, smooth, HD650 sound. Bass might be a little punchier. Let's the GMB and Valhalla 2 show off even more.
If you know you like the HD650 sound, imo it's pretty likely you'll prefer the sound with the mods.
Punchier bass, crisper, more open. No downsides.
I am curious what amps were used by the folks who said the mod made the bass more woolly or increased bass volume as this was not my experience. I can see removal of the dampening increasing the impedance peak ~100Hz. Maybe certain amps that are more voltage limited are having a more difficult time with this.
BuySonic.com has a (new) HD 650 for ~$361/shipped ($359 + 2$ shipping). Guess who just bought one!
.. HD650 #4 inbound..
:spank:
BuySonic.com has a (new) HD 650 for ~$361/shipped ($359 + 2$ shipping). Guess who just bought one!Except you're gonna put a knife to this one :)p6
.. HD650 #4 inbound..
:spank:
Based on your comment, I wonder if the impedance peak is being altered in magnitude by removing the rear damping and thereby threw my compensation off,
Is the HD650 driver a sealed capsule, or is it vented at the back?
Sure thing juggheadd :)p1
Noob Question here and something I read in a post a while back but cannot remember what thread it was in.
I have a pretty simple setup as only my budget will allow at this time (JRiver MC21-->Bifrost Uber USB Gen2-->Valhalla 2 (Stock Tubes - but want Amperex Orange Globes)-->HD650
I have the mods done that were posted (cut the foam around the drivers and removed foam from back of drivers) - I really like the sound. I guess what my question is - Do headphones that are amped sound better louder? Do most of you listen to music rather loudly? Will the HD650 benefit from being cranked at high volumes? I am not sure what is a "normal" listening level, but I would say I am probably around the middle (not too loud, not too soft) if that makes sense (I guess most people would say they listen not too loud, not too soft but I am not sure how else to put it).
Noob Question here and something I read in a post a while back but cannot remember what thread it was in.
I have a pretty simple setup as only my budget will allow at this time (JRiver MC21-->Bifrost Uber USB Gen2-->Valhalla 2 (Stock Tubes - but want Amperex Orange Globes)-->HD650
I have the mods done that were posted (cut the foam around the drivers and removed foam from back of drivers) - I really like the sound. I guess what my question is - Do headphones that are amped sound better louder? Do most of you listen to music rather loudly? Will the HD650 benefit from being cranked at high volumes? I am not sure what is a "normal" listening level, but I would say I am probably around the middle (not too loud, not too soft) if that makes sense (I guess most people would say they listen not too loud, not too soft but I am not sure how else to put it).
Listening to The Who or Motorhead records at their live, over 120 decibel volumes would be insane.
If I wanted an hd650 but without the bass rolloff, what would I buy?
If I wanted an hd650 but without the bass rolloff, what would I buy?The SeNNator!
If I wanted an hd650 but without the bass rolloff, what would I buy?
Which pads? Just the stock Sennheiser or a different brand?
Stock Genuine Sennheiser black pads that are thicker and stiffer than the old ones and.... delivered with a pair of ovoid foam disc ! headbang I'll be able to do the Quarter mod on mine and do A/B comparison . My damping materiel behind the driver is already removed ( and not destroyed so I can reverse the mod as well ) .
Slightly off topic but how are you guys decided between 600 or 650?This http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2432.msg84028.html#msg84028
from what I read it just 650 is slightly darker and that's all.
So, what are you guys deciding factor?
does anyone else feel like their brains sonic preference changes occasionally?Sometimes I wish the HD 650 had more air for shelved, frequency masked, or less forwardly miced cymbals. Occasionally I wish snares were more cutting, put on a Beyer for a few seconds, and then quickly put the HD 650 back on as Beyer.
Sometimes I find the hd650 too muffled and not resolving enough and I use my hd800s, but some days I find the hd800s to sharp and annoying and I listen to my 650s
I wonder why it is hmm.. It works well though have two cans and switching back n forth because I am always happy with the sound im getting.
It's weird though, Id say I its probably like 60-40 right now between hd800s and hd650 usage
This http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2432.msg84028.html#msg84028
along with slightly better driver matching.Sometimes I wish the HD 650 had more air for shelved, frequency masked, or less forwardly miced cymbals. Occasionally I wish snares were more cutting, put on a Beyer for a few seconds, and then quickly put the HD 650 back on as Beyer.