CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Speakers => Topic started by: iRo on June 11, 2015, 07:30:10 AM
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Been thinking about upgrading from X300A to LS50 as my set of PC desktop nearfield speakers. I could get exact room size measurements today, but i think it's something like 13-14 m2. Fairly small as you can see.
According to Stereophile's measurements (http://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker-measurements) LS50 drops to 4Ω at lower frequencies and need some good 4Ω rated power/integrated amplifier. Any recommendations for it? Would prefer 2 categories - under $500 and under $1k. The only requirement is that should support 240V 60Hz or have EU equivalent that o that.
Most likely i'll be getting RME Babyface Pro audio interface (http://babyface.rme-audio.de) for my mic setup and i'd like to use it as the DAC for speakers. So i'm guessing power/integrated amp would need to have XLR output to connect it to BP's line out. Please bear with me - since it's gonna be my first real passive speaker setup, i'm not entirely sure how some connection options work. So more questions:
- If there are no good power amps with balanced output under $1k, can i just use some RCA to XLR cables to connect amp to DAC? If i use it, as i understand it just gonna be unbalanced chain signal (speakers>amp>DAC)?
- Is there any reason to even use balanced gear if LS50s are unbalanced itself? As i understand, the speaker outs or whatever it called of LS50 are unbalanced by itself.
Uh, i'd really appreciate if someone could explain all this stuff to me like i'm 5... facepalm
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Any 100w/4ohm capable amp and you're good to go. Doesn't matter whether it's single-ended or balanced. Near-field the only thing I'd worry about is an amp with a high noise floor.
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It does drop to 3.2Ohm at bass frequencies, so to drive 3Ohm real loads one would need a 2Ohm capable amp. For near-field it isn't that strict, because for most of the time you won't need too much power. I'd get a beefy late 80ies/early 90ies class AB amp. I run mine from a Sony TA-F30ES and it doesn't break a sweat.
The LS50 does, however, need, quality amplification if one expects to hear what these speakers have to offer.
P.S. I hope you have them on stands.
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Speakers are naturally balanced. They each have return/ground/negative for each channel so, technically they're balanced.
Rca/phono jacks can be made balanced if wanted but, not really needed for general applications. But, yea..
3ohm load is not too bad. Most well design amps with healthy power supplies can handle that. If driving a nominal 2ohm load with a consistent dip lower then, that's a different story.
Most pro amps have balanced/unbalanced inputs. While some argue say pro amps don't sound as nice, that can be endlessly debatable among folks but, in my limited experience with few they can perform just as well at home in hi-fi setting as any other well respectable consumer hi-fi amp. Pro gear is same as consumer stuff where there is some good and some crap as with anything else with the world.
Only downside to most people with pro amps though are fans and looks. They're not design to Wow the typical monkey brain with pretty shiny knobs, glossy/glowing metal, cool pretty lights and fancy giant vu meters. They also use fans too instead of over use of unnecessary heavy large heatsinks to try to keep them passive(that's where most of the weight with home amps come from)and, of course to be pushed harder past their limits but, amps nowadays with fans not really an issue cause they're most likely thermal controlled and when they kick on its no louder then typical computer/laptop fan.
It just depends though overall. I don't know much consumer amps with balanced connectors in your price range but, lot of pro amps have them since its a standard in pro world. I do love regular/consumer stuff and owned a lot(receivers,integrated, vintage,new,ht,ect).
Only suggestion though unless you like weird warm sound is stay away from McIntosh. They been used in pro/consumer combo like byston but, I don't like MC's. Lot people do which Is great but, I personally wouldn't use them for "reproduction" purposes.
Just look around and be patient. Test if can to see what you like but, overall enjoy. Also balanced amp not completely necessary but, just made suggestions above. Up to you to decide. I'm just serious bout staying away from macs in my opinion. Don't care how many tell you that the grateful dead used them that they must be awesome lol.
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Macs have killed the joy of every system I've listened with them in the chain.
Buddy used to run a store supplying them, so tried them out quite a bit. Not one of their products appealed to me in any way. Of course I didn't tell that to him..
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I have my LS50s plugged into my Ragnarok. Every single day they make me grin (though maybe that's the Yggy). The Rag has no problem filling out their sound. It's a little annoying as an speaker amp without a remote, but on sound quality and power it's a winner.
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I have my LS50s plugged into my Ragnarok. Every single day they make me grin (though maybe that's the Yggy). The Rag has no problem filling out their sound. It's a little annoying as an speaker amp without a remote, but on sound quality and power it's a winner.
Sounds great and all but, op budget so far is under 1k so the ragnarok is out of range for him and him asking for 240v I'm just gonna make assumption he is in euro or somewhere else overseas which will probably mean the ragnarok will cost close to 2k I'm guessing then.
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I'd just be a cheapass and get the emotiva thing https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/fusion-flex
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Sounds great and all but, op budget so far is under 1k so the ragnarok is out of range for him and him asking for 240v I'm just gonna make assumption he is in euro or somewhere else overseas which will probably mean the ragnarok will cost close to 2k I'm guessing then.
Doh. I completely missed that.
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Doh. I completely missed that.
It's cool. I tend to overlook things a lot myself as well.
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in the <$1K category, I have been using this
http://www.teac.com/product/ai-2000/
both for the LS50 and for my ortho headphones (it has A/B speaker taps). I could not be happier, particularly with the power amp section (you can bypass the preamp) and with the MM phono input. Super-fast, at least compared to the Marantz it replaced. Power-wise, I never have the impression the amp is breaking a sweat in my 20x25 high-ceilings living room. For your application you may save some $$$ and get the little brother (ai-1000) which I haven't heard but was also well reviewed. The by-passable preamp section is a touch on the warm side on neutral. For LS50 it may be a good thing.
Not what you are asking for but have you considered the new Andrew Jones' ELAC speakers? If I were to buy mini speakers today I would probably want to wait to audition those first.
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Andrew Jones mentioned he's aware of the of the Dennis Modded BS22s. If the ELACs better the affordable accuracy monitors, I'd recommend a pair of those with a sub as a good choice for you.
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If you have the skills (though you just really need soldering skill and some ability to drill holes in metal to put a kit together) you can checkout the Mod86/Par86 amps on DIYA - rough total build cost is $400+ from memory, definitely under $1K for 2 channels... It measures very well and the designer is very active in the product thread. Seems to get good feedback reviews too.
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i know it's probably not advised, but how would these work in, say a 15'x15' room with one of those 8-10Wpc class A tube amps? Just wondering...
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They would work rather quietly.
In other news - blew the tweeter on my LS50, expecting a replacement driver next week. Will be building a Modulus-86 amp for my LCD-2's.
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They would work rather quietly.
In other news - blew the tweeter on my LS50, expecting a replacement driver next week. Will be building a Modulus-86 amp for my LCD-2's.
How did you manage to blow it up?
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Ain't the ls50 full range?
Also 10w depending on sensitivity of speakers and listening habits of person and types of music. It won't give person lot of headroom for cranking out but, again overall depends.
I know someone audiokarma very happy driving their kef ls50 with a crown xls 1500. I own a crown xls 2500 myself. Actually was more impressed with it then I thought it would when I used it for month driving my large altecs for a month before deciding using it as a sub amp driving large and heavy jbl dual 15" 4648 theater bass bin as dedicated sub. I use a big crown CE2000 now driving my mains which traditional class a-a/b amp but, thought the class d xls2500 performed 99℅ just as well for full range use. They're just very picky on some preamp/mixer paring between the source and amp.
I like the crossover features and they do work flawlessly as well. The peak limiters do protect your speakers very well too cause it has voltage tracking and will limit its current output when it senses your speakers start to send clip signal but, can easily turn the peak limiters off for consistent full output if needed. They stay super cool too even when pushed to beyond max output and will not shut down. That's why I like them driving heavy loads like subs. I like them personally and not badly priced for their performance. Them weighing only 11lbs makes them easy hual around. I use nothing but, pro stuff for even home now but, still have share of favorite vintage home stuff.
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for budget integrated options and power needs, NAD and Cambridge Audio should be easily found worldwide in 240V. i have a older CA Azur 350A in my family-fi/TV room. the HP out is pretty decent too.
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How did you manage to blow it up?
1.Unplug inputs, amps starts to oscillate in ultrasonic frequencies.
2.???
3. Order new driver.
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If you're looking at cheap crown amps, the class A/B x1000/x2000/xli800/xli1500 are better for speakers in my experience than the xls series. Less power on tap and much heavier but significantly better sounding units. In fact, the delta between the crown x1000 and my previous parasound a21 was smaller than the delta between the parasound and the Ragnarok.
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+1 the professional power amp route. The only things you might miss compared to budget "hi-fi" units are a remote control and aesthetics. You get more power, more robust build quality, likely easier to deal with in terms of warranty, and lower prices.
The sub-$1000 NAD integrated amplifier route is not a good idea in my opinion. They don't sound particularly good and their build quality (internal and external) is pretty rubbish to be honest. Or at least I thought the NAD C326BEE I used to own was complete garbage.
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Those speakers received some very good reviews, but seems to me really should have a good source.
I think either of the Audio-GD lower power offerings would be a good investment and something you could get a lot of use out of even if you upgrade your systems in the future
I suggest that you do similar research before making your final selection for DAC also...
My guess is if you take your time and correctly match the DAC and amp for the LS50's, you will have a really fantastic system with a sound quality much better than more expensive systems that have mismatched components
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/Precision1/Precision1EN.htm
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/amp/Precision2/Precision2EN.htm
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If you're looking at cheap crown amps, the class A/B x1000/x2000/xli800/xli1500 are better for speakers in my experience than the xls series. Less power on tap and much heavier but significantly better sounding units. In fact, the delta between the crown x1000 and my previous parasound a21 was smaller than the delta between the parasound and the Ragnarok.
I know the xli has selectable input voltage of 0.775v and 1.4v which can have slight affect on the input signal a bit. Also people never match gain structure of the amp to the source which can cause fast distortion/clipping to the inputs before the amp comes even close to clipping point and people usually like to leave amp wide open. Leaving amp wide open(fully clockwise) usually not best idea sometimes(cause speakers and sources reaches distortion much quicker and before the amp even comes close to distortion most of the time)
I didn't tell too much difference between my CE2000 and xls 2500 last time I tested and compared. I was bias at first cause the xls being class d design but, overall couldn't find too much difference. I know the xls 2500 doesn't like passive pres too much unless your source can supply optimal voltage of +4dbu. My CE2000 is same way. If I switch my CE2000 to 26db fixed gain it'll then require over 3v RMS to reach full output and with some sources sound worst than my xls 2500. Pro amps are bit more complex but, yet simple to deal with cause they're not all the time just plug n play. Matching gain structure with source(s) is very easy but, most overlooked aspect. Most common and easiest method most people do is usually leave gain halfway point and call it a day.
Im just saying overall the xls models not bad in my opinion but, do suggest if getting/trying one the xls 2000/2500 is way to go. Besides power they use better parts and better Texas instruments chip inside for crossover functions and voltage tracking. For the price they're not bad and can confidentiality say they're lot better than something like McIntosh gear. I tested my xls 2500 against pair of Boutique 600w McIntosh mono blocks and thought the xls 2500 was more true to the signal than the McIntosh gear. McIntosh just adds weird type warmness and glare to everything it's hooked up to.
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X1000/x2000/x4000 are rebadged xli models for musician's friend.
The xli line is class A/B and has significantly better power supplies than the class D xls series. They also sound significantly better with decent speakers.
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X1000/x2000/x4000 are rebadged xli models for musician's friend.
The xli line is class A/B and has significantly better power supplies than the class D xls series. They also sound significantly better with decent speakers.
I know. Sam ash/guitar center( musician friend is tied with guitar center i think)has dedicated rebadge amps from both crown and qsc lines.
I think the PSU is fine on my xls 2500 it had no issues driving ultra low frequencies at max output all day. If the PSU wasn't all that great then I wouldn't be using it as a subwoofer amp for driving ultra low frequencies and rattling houses couple blocks away. I even tried it on difficult 2ohm loads and it had no issues if that what you're trying to get at.
I think you might be thinking of the Older xti models maybe. I know the older xti before, the home bench testing frenzy and complaints had issues with their PSU before xti was fixed by crown with the xti2 series. People were testing them against other amps and found issues testing the xti1000 with sub bass frequencies that would only output 15w@20hz before shut down. They did test the xls drivecore too and found no issues with outputting their rated power from 20hz-20khz. Forgot which site but, think can still find it.
I think I use pretty decent speakers ( I like them) which are reworked large altec lansing vott speakers. Could go into detail on their work but, I been babbling enough.