CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Main Deck => Discussion for Registered Members Only => Topic started by: Valentin Hogea on December 20, 2012, 07:11:59 AM
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I'll be writing up a pretty hefty review for the Paradox for headfonia.com in a couple of weeks. And in the intro I'll be discussing the Subjective Objectivist movement, driven by places/guys like changstar/Tyll etc. etc. I know that our reviews aren't the most popular here. I however, can not be held accountable for my fellow co-reviewers opinions. All I can account for is myself.
My question is. Discussing it and linking to e.g. HD800-mod, Paradox CSD's etc. There will be some traffic here. How is this movement to newcomers? I felt that I've been received most pleasant. But I'm one guy. What if 100 guys like me appear and just keep asking questions etc. Will this aid this forum or annoy? I know that there are a lot of links from Head-Fi to CSD's on changstar, but I'm asking just in case.
So:
Rule nr 1 - You do not talk about Fight Club?
... or
Talk about it as much as you like, link, discuss, enlighten?
Thx,
V
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This is honestly the first time I've heard "subjective objectivist." Didn't know we were part of a movement.
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We're usually pretty cool with newcomers. Not always. Novices are always welcome and as long as questions are asked intelligently, most longer time members are patient and make sincere attempt to answer them.
I think only three people have been banned (one is a conspiracy theorist who keeps making sock accounts via proxies / VPN and is banned at several other forums, another is a HF mod who has banned by someone else than me, and yet another is some moron who kept quoting me out of context.)
Also one or two others got slammed hard for promoting certain agendas or having axes to grind (but haven't been banned permanently).
Tyll already opened the floodgates, and I'm back being more active on the site again after a month hiatus, so I think we can handle any additional load. I figure most people who want to be here or find this place a good resource are already here by now.
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VH, Think of this site as a place for people that want to make sense of what actually makes sense... if that makes any sense LOL. In other words, Trying to understand measurements by seeing how they relate with the sound. If certain measurements don't jive with what you hear for example, then I would go with the subjective first. For noobies however, measurements might not always make sense right away so I suggest to them to listen more first before trying to make sense of the correlation of the subjective and the objective.
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And please, don't attempt to narrowly label the forum or the people. One of the great things about Changstar is that our pirates are independent thinkers who aren't confined to simply follow and instead choose to detour around stereotypes.
You reviews are a great example. Your view is that they aren't popular here. I'd offer that they are well read by the membership and often discussed by the pirates. No, not everyone agrees with all the content and views, but they create good discussion. That is, in my view, a part of the essence of the group here. We often have the most heated discussions amongst our own, but in the end inevitably we rally around some objectivity and generally find there is a solid base we agree on.
Looking forward to reading your review.
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If anything about Changstar I like the fact that having a sense of humour counts too...
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MF once stated something along the lines of that this forum is more about the process of it's members enjoying h-fi playback. i think this sums up Changstar perfectly. the measurements/objective content add to the collective knowledge and can aid in this process for a member wishing a deeper understanding, whether or not you're looking for an objective/strict neutral or a purely subjective experience. for me personally, it's an attempt to correlate measurements with subjective experiences. for this, i am grateful for the likes of purrin and Tyll in headphonedom.
all views are welcomed as long as you don't have an agenda or an axe to grind.
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New members are welcome - those with agendas or who take personal offense when someone insults their gear may not find a lasting home here though.
I agree with ship that labeling this forum is pigeonholing it - it is more than that, and the membership here does have some diversity. We also don't take ourselves or the import of this hobby very seriously, as Deep Funk alluded to. People here are very independently minded - that means no hive mind/group think, no hype or marketing affecting our opinions, and no sponsorships that may curtail us from voicing those opinions.
We're not like old people in rocking chairs yelling "get off my lawn." You're fine on the lawn as long you don't piss on the grass. Though our lawn is pretty open to all, we do have lawn order.
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Also, I think you find that members talk much more about music here than at HF.
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I've figured for a while now that many here were of that camp [Subjective Objectivism (http://subjectiveobjectivism.wordpress.com/welcome-to-the-world-of-subjective-objectivism/how-can-i-become-a-subjective-objectivist), that is...]
A key difference between Changstar and other places, I believe, is that we recognize the validity of preferences but also see them for what they are... Unless one accounts for them any obtained realizations are obfuscated and unrealistic.
In summary, collective truth over blind self-fulfillment.
(I sometimes think I'm a bit the other way around: an objective-subjectivist, but that's a whole 'nother thread.)
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On the mention of "process": The curiosity and discovery aspect is a big part of Changstar.
I eschew labels, but if there is one which would be appropriate, it would be "relativist". The mods and long time members here have VERY different sonic preferences, but somehow we are able to establish some common ground. For example, it's hard to argue that HD800s don't sound (and measure) brighter relative to the LCD3 -or- the SRH1440 measures (and sounds) with intensely elevated mid/upper mids relative to almost any other headphone in existence.
I would also say that healthy skepticism or anti-hype (for lack of a better term) also applies here. Dis-constructing hype and pointing out the not so good while acknowledging the good was a primary driver of this site.
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This is honestly the first time I've heard "subjective objectivist." Didn't know we were part of a movement.
We'll, that's true. I just made that up. ;) But it felt like the most correct "label" to attach to this individual grass roots-movement, of questioning the current paradigm (which is to great extent generated by one major website and the marketing it creates for new products).
We're usually pretty cool with newcomers. Not always. Novices are always welcome and as long as questions are asked intelligently, most longer time members are patient and make sincere attempt to answer them.
I think only three people have been banned (one is a conspiracy theorist who keeps making sock accounts via proxies / VPN and is banned at several other forums, another is a HF mod who has banned by someone else than me, and yet another is some moron who kept quoting me out of context.)
Also one or two others got slammed hard for promoting certain agendas or having axes to grind (but haven't been banned permanently).
Tyll already opened the floodgates, and I'm back being more active on the site again after a month hiatus, so I think we can handle any additional load. I figure most people who want to be here or find this place a good resource are already here by now.
I wasn't aware of the people you mentioned and the ban's. But it's becoming quite clear on head-fi, that more and more "rebels" are being accused and banned. Silencing the rest that question those actions. I get it. It's not a democracy. What is a democracy btw. In my opinion, there aren't any. Some just are surrounded by a larger consensus/illusion of the people thinking it really is a democracy whilst something else is in the works in the background.
VH, Think of this site as a place for people that want to make sense of what actually makes sense... if that makes any sense LOL. In other words, Trying to understand measurements by seeing how they relate with the sound. If certain measurements don't jive with what you hear for example, then I would go with the subjective first. For noobies however, measurements might not always make sense right away so I suggest to them to listen more first before trying to make sense of the correlation of the subjective and the objective.
That is how I also view changstar. Glad we agree. And yes, you make sense. ;D Adding some objective truth and trying to stay as objective as possible. I do some research myself. Mostly on antibiotic resistance and aminoglycosides (a type of antibiotic and their effects on the hair cells in the inner ear), and it's damn hard to always stay objective. Thus avoiding drawing conclusions that might be interpreted as causal when actually it's the mind playing tricks on the objectivity.
Typical example. Alcoholics are depressed. Did they start drinking because of a depression. Or did the alcohol lead to a depression? Still 30 years and numerous studies, both are equally true/false.
If anything about Changstar I like the fact that having a sense of humour counts too...
New members are welcome - those with agendas or who take personal offense when someone insults their gear may not find a lasting home here though.
I agree with ship that labeling this forum is pigeonholing it - it is more than that, and the membership here does have some diversity. We also don't take ourselves or the import of this hobby very seriously, as Deep Funk alluded to. People here are very independently minded - that means no hive mind/group think, no hype or marketing affecting our opinions, and no sponsorships that may curtail us from voicing those opinions.
We're not like old people in rocking chairs yelling "get off my lawn." You're fine on the lawn as long you don't piss on the grass. Though our lawn is pretty open to all, we do have lawn order.
Well put! And yeah, that part sure is important. As long as the common "style" is intepreted correctly by the members. Not taking one self too seriously is the first step. And everyone here seems to agree on that one.
Also, I think you find that members talk much more about music here than at HF.
That also is a good thing. It shocks me how little the biggest part of the hobby actually is discussed sometimes.
I've figured for a while now that many here were of that camp [Subjective Objectivism (http://subjectiveobjectivism.wordpress.com/welcome-to-the-world-of-subjective-objectivism/how-can-i-become-a-subjective-objectivist), that is...]
A key difference between Changstar and other places, I believe, is that we recognize the validity of preferences but also see them for what they are... Unless one accounts for them any obtained realizations are obfuscated and unrealistic.
In summary, collective truth over blind self-fulfillment.
(I sometimes think I'm a bit the other way around: an objective-subjectivist, but that's a whole 'nother thread.)
On the mention of "process": The curiosity and discovery aspect is a big part of Changstar.
I eschew labels, but if there is one which would be appropriate, it would be "relativist". The mods and long time members here have VERY different sonic preferences, but somehow we are able to establish some common ground. For example, it's hard to argue that HD800s don't sound (and measure) brighter relative to the LCD3 -or- the SRH1440 measures (and sounds) with intensely elevated mid/upper mids relative to almost any other headphone in existence.
I would also say that healthy skepticism or anti-hype (for lack of a better term) also applies here. Dis-constructing hype and pointing out the not so good while acknowledging the good was a primary driver of this site.
Blind self-fulfillment is sometimes good. It makes the toys better. Call it childish ignorance. But a new toy sure was more "fun" when one was younger. However, this is a multi-thousand dollar hobby. Hype has it's strengths, the ones that "log out" are probably the most content music lovers. But those never spread the false truths, especially not in a way that can be changed. And hopefully they don't affect the view of too many individuals in "the wrong direction". The tricky part are the "blinded quasi-religious fundamentalist audiophiles" that preach lies to the masses. Sometimes by ignorance but mostly by crowd mentality. That's where science and objectivity comes in. And it's the only way to counter "religious" truth.
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Val,
i can't wait to read your review. i so want to hear the Paradox against my own modded Fostex.
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Val,
i can't wait to read your review. i so want to hear the Paradox against my own modded Fostex.
I'm just on guy, with one opinion. But I'll do my best to make the review as correct as I possibly can. In short I am very-very impressed. This truly is a reference headphone. It's so true to the source that it scares me. If the soundstage is wide, it'll be wide. If it's narrow, it's narrow. If it's mastered to a warm sound signature, it'll show, if it's bright... it's bright, but not piercing. Okay, sometimes piercing, but now I know it's the master and not the headphone ringing etc..
And for aprox 500 USD? Wow...
I wish I had a HP1000 too. To make the comparision to another reference hp. I'll compare it to HD800 & LCD-3 which to some extent are some of the "best" headphones currently. If we ignore electrostats and R10's and such.
But now, I gotta get some more headtime. At least 200 hs before I even draw any final conclusions...
P.S. I had a possibility to buy a HP2 for 1299 USD a couple of weeks ago from a friend. But I passed. In the future I hope to own one though. At least for a couple of months to form an opinion of it's strengths and faults...
/V
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Headfonia....
Why headfonia?
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Because he reviews for headfonia.
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With all due respect to Mike.
Headfonia's reviews are piss poor.
Like a headphone-only equivalent to CNET
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This would be ValentinHogea's review, not Mike's. Headfonia's reviews and the alleged uric content therein do not automatically dictate what a third party "guest" reviewer's content will be. Unless you are including valentin in your comment, in which case, combining your first question with this new post, your question reads "why are you doing a review? You suck."
If you are just afraid of Valentin being lumped in with the "rest" of headfonia by casual readers who write off whole websites and their value based on one member's contributions, not all readers make the same sweeping generalizations as you do so I don't think its a concern.
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Everyone's entitled to an opinion. So if you don't like Mike's reviews. Feel free to do so...
I think Tari said it quite well. The though with adding guest reviewers on headfonia was to add different views from different people, especially having the possibility for double-reviews.
And last but not least me. I would never review something of which I do not feel "safe" reviewing. So, what does that mean. We'll if I review a 500-USD portable amp. I better have listened good and hard to it's most obivious competition, otherwise I feel my opinions have no value.
In the case of Paradox, I feel that I have a very good take on headphones in the 400-1000 USD price category and therefore I can strengthen the pro's and con's with it.
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I really like Mike. He and Jude are one of the biggest personalities that has influenced myself in this hobby.
However I feel they've strayed far too 'commercially' as of late. Which is very disappointing. And now that he's become a retailer, even more so.
Most of headfonia's reviews feel somewhat 'controlled' and 'coloured'. I'm not sure what V's Paradox review would do there. People may start to question the price of Luis' mod versus the stock. I don't think the Paradox was ever intended for commercial scale anyway, so if the review creates a decent amount of hype, Luis' would be rather busy indeed.
In any case, changstar has survived Tyll's introductory post. Won't hurt to get influx from Headfonia, although I really think the headfonia crowd is much less receptive of objectivity.
The double review thing would be interesting. I'd like to know what the rest of those guys have to say about something like the Paradox. Although one can already predict their rebuttal.
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You can read my other two reviews and get a picture of how I write and what I dear say and not.
Yeah of course. There will be discussion regarding the stock T50RP, Mad Dogs etc. etc.
But I want to open up discussion of where this headphone hobby is heading too. I mean like... The TH900 a hotted up D7000 selling at double the MRSP. Yeah it's better. But come on? The LCD-2 vs LCD-3. Times are changing, whether we like it or not.
And regarding sponsors and such. I think you will find that not all reviews are praises. Just look at the http://www.headfonia.com/the-player-astell-kern-ak100/ (http://www.headfonia.com/the-player-astell-kern-ak100/) . Mike's going to sell that at the Analog Head-store even though he doesn't like it. At the end of the day. People make choices based on (1) marketing, (2) reviews and their own (3) subjective opinion. How well they are at minimizing marketing-bias, finding reviewers that have credibility (in their eyes) and making the subjective opinion as objective as possible is individual.
As a note. I'm about to buy a EC Super 7. Not because I've heard it. Not because it's getting serious hype via any "regular" channels. But because of the threads here. I value the opinion of the posters here, because my own knowledge is not strong enough to compare and choose in the price bracket. Mostly because, especially here in Sweden, there's no possibility to listen to the "giants" in that domain. Woo Audio, Headamp, Eddie Current, TTVJ/Millet, Manley etc. etc. etc.
Will i review it for headfonia? Most likely not. If so it'll be an explanation of what it does/listening impressions, but I don't feel cunning enough to review an 1500-3000 USD amp, and therefore avoid it.
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The most difficult thing about science (since i do quite a lot of research) is learning causality and avoiding transposing facts to new fields, thinking "it's almost the same thing". There's a reason why expert opinions have the lowest degree of power in evidence-based medicine. Meta-analyses, especially of double-blind randomized controlled studies with fixed study protocols before data collection is something that will be very hard to adapt to the headphone audiophile hobby (Read: impossible). But that's where qualitative methodology comes in to science. Quantitative methodology is what most consider to be "real science". Yes and no. Quantitative methodology creates data for t-testing and other statistical methods. However qualitative methodology asks the question "What should we be measuring". In science both are equally valuable.
In the headphone hobby via Changstar and Tyll we can add some quantitative data to all qualitative notions. But still. How do we measure listening pleasure? It's hard to measure "beauty". And follow-up question. What about the euphony and linearity-thing? If linearity is everything we might as well just buy Behringer's pro-audio racks and settle at that. Or shoot everything in Neutral on our dSLR's and never post-process.
---- End of rant
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"But still. How do we measure listening pleasure? It's hard to measure "beauty". And follow-up question."
Val, it's very easy in this context.
Question 1: do I like this headphone?
Answer: Yes.
Question 2: is worth the price I have to pay for it? (Also in regards to changing your audio system.)
Answer: Yes.
Question 3: do I want to keep it?
Answer: Yes, I'm keeping/purchasing it.
You would only have to explain the first questions regarding the headphone's qualities and you've got your answers. Just don't try to confuse me like SixMoons and HeadFonia. I won't even bother with 'TLDR'. When hollow language confuses me I call it ingnore-worthy. As we often say of worthless books: "you can still burn it..."
Looking forward to your impressions...
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However I feel they've strayed far too 'commercially' as of late. Which is very disappointing. And now that he's become a retailer, even more so.
So go to another site, but who are you to say what is too commercial or not? Can you blame Mike for trying to make a living form something he's obviously passionate about? Accept it for what it is and move on.
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"But still. How do we measure listening pleasure? It's hard to measure "beauty". And follow-up question."
Val, it's very easy in this context.
Question 1: do I like this headphone?
Answer: Yes.
Question 2: is worth the price I have to pay for it? (Also in regards to changing your audio system.)
Answer: Yes.
Question 3: do I want to keep it?
Answer: Yes, I'm keeping/purchasing it.
You would only have to explain the first questions regarding the headphone's qualities and you've got your answers. Just don't try to confuse me like SixMoons and HeadFonia. I won't even bother with 'TLDR'. When hollow language confuses me I call it ingnore-worthy. As we often say of worthless books: "you can still burn it..."
Looking forward to your impressions...
That was a new abbreviation for me. "Too long don't read". :)
1) I like this headphone because to my ears it let's me listen to my source/headphone amp and not headphone-related-artifacts.
2) Is it worth 600-800 USD? Well yes and no. It's custom-made and I have a feeling that LFF is pretty picky when it comes to tuning these. Therefore he has a skill that I do not. So I pay for his "expertise".
3) I'll keep it due to - portability/comfort - a realistic soundstage and good imaging - and a very speaker-like frequency response. It feels like it listening to my speakers.
But that wouldn't be a too informative review.
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What I was getting at earlier was (1) will people like a flat response (2) will people pay aprox 450 USD for custom work on a 200 USD-headphone.
In order to discuss the "real" issue at hand, which I consider to be... what does a medium soundstage and a flat frequency response and non-existant ringing and quick decay mean in terms of listening pleasure?
Because let's face it. Put a HD800 on your head and the sound stage will blow your socks off. Put a LCD-3 on your head and the bass/warmth/silky sound will make music sound more realistic than most people have heard previous to that.
What I will answer is: "Why would I "bother" with putting this headphone on my head even though these well-renown flagships are in my viscinity?"
And I don't know exactly how to explain what I feel when I listen to the Paradox other than "I want more". Why? Don't know yet. Need more time... :)p13
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Tyll already opened the floodgates
At this risk of quoting you out of context, what do you mean by this? Links?
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"TLDR" or "tl;dr" as it's sometimes formulated means 'too long; didn't read'. Enough derailing by me, sorry...
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Tyll already opened the floodgates
At this risk of quoting you out of context, what do you mean by this? Links?
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/now-pirates-headphonedom-argh
Don't read the comments or you will get a headache.
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Tyll already opened the floodgates
At this risk of quoting you out of context, what do you mean by this? Links?
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/now-pirates-headphonedom-argh
Edit: Ooops! Tari beat me to it. It now has 14k reads.
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http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/now-pirates-headphonedom-argh (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/now-pirates-headphonedom-argh)
Edit: Ooops! Tari beat me to it. It now has 14k reads.
Oh my god...
That/those dude(s) (Dale Thorn etc...) in the comments section need meds. A whole Skittles-bag.
I've seen lighter cases of mania/paranoid schizofrenia institutionalised.
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Ahhh Dale Thorn ... ::)
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Some people somehow manage to get banned/warned all the time...
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I never looked through that comment thread before. Jeez, I'm surprised how extreme some of the arguments get.
The whole "subjectivist vs. objectivist" thing going on in the headphone world reminds me a lot of the sabermetrics vs. traditionalists in the baseball world. Baseball analysts and fans still today will get in heated arguments about how people don't play baseball using a spreadsheet and how they need to use their eyes to see what is going on and not care about whatever WARVORPOWHIP is being used. Sabermetricists argued that a lot of what they were seeing with their eyes and what they felt was true was just chance and luck at play.
After a while, baseball reached a relatively happy medium where most people and analysts seem to agree that you can use statistical measurements alongside observations from scouts to best determine how good players in baseball are and how much to pay them. Hopefully, the headphone audio world at large will reach that level of maturity soon.
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Good analogy!
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I never looked through that comment thread before. Jeez, I'm surprised how extreme some of the arguments get.
The whole "subjectivist vs. objectivist" thing going on in the headphone world reminds me a lot of the sabermetrics vs. traditionalists in the baseball world. Baseball analysts and fans still today will get in heated arguments about how people don't play baseball using a spreadsheet and how they need to use their eyes to see what is going on and not care about whatever WARVORPOWHIP is being used. Sabermetricists argued that a lot of what they were seeing with their eyes and what they felt was true was just chance and luck at play.
After a while, baseball reached a relatively happy medium where most people and analysts seem to agree that you can use statistical measurements alongside observations from scouts to best determine how good players in baseball are and how much to pay them. Hopefully, the headphone audio world at large will reach that level of maturity soon.
You have to remember that the medium was only reached after the SM crowd failed to produce consistent series winners. What it did do was clean out a lot of old guard scouting habits and establish an actual value system for work done by players (which most teams went on to ignore cause you cannot get more budget money from team owners if you preach value:))
The audio world being a subset of the consumer electronics world will never get there. Half the problem is most do not know exactly what to measure, and the other half don't care anyway.
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The baseball analogy works for me. A few years ago, I was doing a lot of my own analysis and actively posting on some Texas Rangers forums. They've had a lot of success recently by relying heavily on both subjective scouting reports and statistical analysis. Anyway, as a mod on one of the forums, I had to deal with a lot of arguments that sprouted from someone completely disagreeing with some stats. On the whole though, it seemed the vast majority of the forum members preferred a mix of scouting and stats.
More importantly, if anyone actually cares about baseball, here's a few scouting reports that I found hilarious:
http://www.baseballnation.com/2013/5/9/4314164/scouting-reports-hunter-pence-derek-jeter (http://www.baseballnation.com/2013/5/9/4314164/scouting-reports-hunter-pence-derek-jeter)
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The baseball analogy works for me. A few years ago, I was doing a lot of my own analysis and actively posting on some Texas Rangers forums. They've had a lot of success recently by relying heavily on both subjective scouting reports and statistical analysis. Anyway, as a mod on one of the forums, I had to deal with a lot of arguments that sprouted from someone completely disagreeing with some stats. On the whole though, it seemed the vast majority of the forum members preferred a mix of scouting and stats.
More importantly, if anyone actually cares about baseball, here's a few scouting reports that I found hilarious:
http://www.baseballnation.com/2013/5/9/4314164/scouting-reports-hunter-pence-derek-jeter (http://www.baseballnation.com/2013/5/9/4314164/scouting-reports-hunter-pence-derek-jeter)
By god that actually sounds like something Philly would do.:)
The thing about the metrics was they had no input on personality and dynamics with others. That can make a mediocre player a go and at times and a technical talent a pass over.