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Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on July 04, 2012, 05:53:54 AM

Title: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Marvey on July 04, 2012, 05:53:54 AM
Yamaha YH-1 (highly modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=389.0;attach=1697;image)
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Marvey on July 04, 2012, 05:54:02 AM
Minor rattle in left driver...
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: stratocaster on July 04, 2012, 08:03:55 AM
Very impressive measurements. Congratulations on a really neat modding job, RD.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: ultrabike on July 04, 2012, 08:30:10 AM
^ +1
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: omegakitty on July 04, 2012, 01:45:03 PM
Nice work RD, these two are seriously nice.

(drives YH-1/3 prices even higher j/k :P )
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: RexAeterna on July 04, 2012, 02:47:01 PM
RD is really the master of orthos. very awesome work indeed!
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: donunus on July 04, 2012, 04:44:56 PM
I wish I could get an RD ortho myself. Awesome!
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: gurubhai on July 04, 2012, 06:41:05 PM
RD is really the master of orthos.
Indeed !

He is a perfectionist and sets really high standards for himself. He was actually quite jittery about sending these orthos fpr measurements since he knew about these treble issues & was worried about how these would measure. I urged him to send these regardless since I was sure that his headphones would the crap out of most offerings of so called modern manufacturers.
Hats off to you buddy.  :-*
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on July 04, 2012, 09:45:08 PM
Thanks everyone!  Though I must say there are a number people on this forum I would consider "ortho masters" such as  Don (dBel84) and Guru.

I think it's worth noting for those who don't know the history behind these phones, that this headphone was made in 1975.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Anathallo on July 04, 2012, 10:00:43 PM
Thanks everyone!  Though I must say there are a number people on this forum I would consider "ortho masters" such as  Don (dBel84) and Guru.

I think it's worth noting for those who don't know the history behind these phones, that this headphone was made in 1975.

Have the aesthetics changed or do they still look stock/have stock parts?  (Including pads)
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: LFF on July 05, 2012, 12:44:17 AM
Excellent job on these RD!!!

Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: stratocaster on July 05, 2012, 06:58:39 AM
Thinking about building wooden enclosures for my Yamaha HP-1 and HP-3. Any experience with something like that already, RD?
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: ujamerstand on July 05, 2012, 04:22:15 PM
These (http://www.head-fi.org/t/111193/orthodynamic-roundup/6210#post_5142987)?
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on July 05, 2012, 05:50:47 PM
Thanks Luis. 

It is great to see plots for these finally.  I've never used any FR sweeps or tone generators to tune these- just music- so it's great to confirm my suspicions that the treble rolls off (hard to tell between rough treble and roll off using just music).  You can get a bit more extension out of the driver, but you have to create peaks in the upper mids and/or treble to do so.  In the end this is a great example of the damping and tuning process with orthos.  You can only push a driver so far with damping, you can tune them to make drastic changes in their response, but you can't create something that's not there.  These drivers are outstanding in every way except treble extension.  So after endless trial and error and fixing all the other problems they have in the stock enclosure (getting flat clean upper mids is quite a battle in and of itself and took a lot of work...), I let them roll off and opted for as flat a response as possible, as that's just what sounded best to me. 


What did you change to get the peak to turn into that large roll-off in the treble?

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/YamahaYH3DIYModifiedrhythmdevils.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/YamahaYH3DIYModifiedrhythmdevils.pdf)

First, it's important to note that there is a peak there, but it's much much smaller than his graph would suggest.  Every headphone has a peak there on his rig LFF's Paradox does too, in the exact same spot while measuring relatively flat on Purrin's rig, it's part of the "ideal curve" and part of my frustration with his FR graphs.  Hard to tell what is his graph and what is my headphone.  But I would guess that the part that reflects my YH3's response is that part of the peak that goes above the level of the flat midrange to bass line.  The slope down in the upper mids and the rise at 9k back up to the level of the mid-bass line is his ideal curve.  But you can see how after this mild peak at 9k, the response still plumets in the exact same way as on Purrin's graph.  Bonus with this scheme is you get more upper treble.  So with this scheme I was compensating for this roll-off by boosting 9/10k a bit.  But it still sounds a bit rough and grainy because of the valley so in the end, as I've said, I opted for finding the best response for this driver.  Which for me, is flat and rolling off where the driver rolls off rather than creating uneven response.  Some people may rather have a peak to compensate.  I think this is what most people wind up doing when tuning these. 

I gave the HP50 a bit of a treble peak, so we'll see what it looks like. It's also got an experimental scheme that I hope will change the way we think about damping. 

It's too bad, as it's the only thing holding them back, but it's still not that bad, cymbals on these sound like the LCD-2. 

Thinking about building wooden enclosures for my Yamaha HP-1 and HP-3. Any experience with something like that already, RD?

I have thought about it myself, and have some ideas.  I would do it differently than the ones Smeggy made even though they are beautiful.  I think you would be better off mimicking what I did with my YH1, where it is closed directly behind the driver, and open all around the sides.  I can't be sure, but I think it helps these drivers operate ideally to have that enclosed space behind them for damping so they're not just pushing against open air.  I'm going to post all my damping schemes in the not too distant future, and will be happy to help you implement them in a wooden enclosure.  It has the potential to help with SQ.  Though I've already gotten the response to where I think the driver is the limiting factor, so I'm not sure how much benefit you would really see.  Definitely some though. 
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Hands on July 05, 2012, 07:17:40 PM
First, it's important to note that there is a peak there, but it's much much smaller than his graph would suggest.  Every headphone has a peak there on his rig LFF's Paradox does too, in the exact same spot while measuring relatively flat on Purrin's rig, it's part of the "ideal curve" and part of my frustration with his FR graphs.  Hard to tell what is his graph and what is my headphone.

I've noticed this as well, and it is frustrating. The Paradox I own doesn't match up too well with Tyll's measurements when I run them through SineGen. Otherwise, I'd notice a large dip at 5KHz and the following treble spike that comes right after. But...I don't. Strangely, though, I have heard headphones that match up rather well with Tyll's measurements. My open-back modded D2000s were almost spot on with Tyll's measurements through SineGen. Of course, running headphones through SineGen isn't entirely accurate, but it's still odd.

Anyway, awesome job with the orthos, RD!
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: anetode on July 05, 2012, 07:24:55 PM
Wow, well done! The rolloff's high enough to where I wouldn't think it makes itself apparent.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Marvey on July 05, 2012, 07:41:02 PM

Anyway, awesome job with the orthos, RD!


I was thinking it would be funny if I actually didn't measure the headphones but rather listened to them and drew a graph in photoshop instead.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Hands on July 05, 2012, 07:49:19 PM

Anyway, awesome job with the orthos, RD!


I was thinking it would be funny if I actually didn't measure the headphones but rather listened to them and drew a graph in photoshop instead.

So that's your secret!  ;)
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: stratocaster on July 05, 2012, 08:01:04 PM
Quote (selected)
I have thought about it myself, and have some ideas.  I would do it differently than the ones Smeggy made even though they are beautiful.  I think you would be better off mimicking what I did with my YH1, where it is closed directly behind the driver, and open all around the sides.  I can't be sure, but I think it helps these drivers operate ideally to have that enclosed space behind them for damping so they're not just pushing against open air.  I'm going to post all my damping schemes in the not too distant future, and will be happy to help you implement them in a wooden enclosure.  It has the potential to help with SQ.  Though I've already gotten the response to where I think the driver is the limiting factor, so I'm not sure how much benefit you would really see.  Definitely some though.

What came to my mind first was to use some kind of StratoKOSSter enclosure, closed, but with a ring of small vent holes either on the back of the cups or on the sides. These vents could be closed in a 'stock' configuration, but opened one after the other for fine-tuning.
Anyway, looking forward to learning about your damping schemes.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: omegakitty on July 05, 2012, 11:09:56 PM
Thanks Luis. 

It is great to see plots for these finally.  I've never used any FR sweeps or tone generators to tune these- just music- so it's great to confirm my suspicions that the treble rolls off (hard to tell between rough treble and roll off using just music).  You can get a bit more extension out of the driver, but you have to create peaks in the upper mids and/or treble to do so.  In the end this is a great example of the damping and tuning process with orthos.  You can only push a driver so far with damping, you can tune them to make drastic changes in their response, but you can't create something that's not there.  These drivers are outstanding in every way except treble extension.  So after endless trial and error and fixing all the other problems they have in the stock enclosure (getting flat clean upper mids is quite a battle in and of itself and took a lot of work...), I let them roll off and opted for as flat a response as possible, as that's just what sounded best to me. 


What did you change to get the peak to turn into that large roll-off in the treble?

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/YamahaYH3DIYModifiedrhythmdevils.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/YamahaYH3DIYModifiedrhythmdevils.pdf)

First, it's important to note that there is a peak there, but it's much much smaller than his graph would suggest.  Every headphone has a peak there on his rig LFF's Paradox does too, in the exact same spot while measuring relatively flat on Purrin's rig, it's part of the "ideal curve" and part of my frustration with his FR graphs.  Hard to tell what is his graph and what is my headphone.  But I would guess that the part that reflects my YH3's response is that part of the peak that goes above the level of the flat midrange to bass line.  The slope down in the upper mids and the rise at 9k back up to the level of the mid-bass line is his ideal curve.  But you can see how after this mild peak at 9k, the response still plumets in the exact same way as on Purrin's graph.  Bonus with this scheme is you get more upper treble.  So with this scheme I was compensating for this roll-off by boosting 9/10k a bit.  But it still sounds a bit rough and grainy because of the valley so in the end, as I've said, I opted for finding the best response for this driver.  Which for me, is flat and rolling off where the driver rolls off rather than creating uneven response.  Some people may rather have a peak to compensate.  I think this is what most people wind up doing when tuning these. 

I gave the HP50 a bit of a treble peak, so we'll see what it looks like. It's also got an experimental scheme that I hope will change the way we think about damping. 

It's too bad, as it's the only thing holding them back, but it's still not that bad, cymbals on these sound like the LCD-2. 

Thinking about building wooden enclosures for my Yamaha HP-1 and HP-3. Any experience with something like that already, RD?

I have thought about it myself, and have some ideas.  I would do it differently than the ones Smeggy made even though they are beautiful.  I think you would be better off mimicking what I did with my YH1, where it is closed directly behind the driver, and open all around the sides.  I can't be sure, but I think it helps these drivers operate ideally to have that enclosed space behind them for damping so they're not just pushing against open air.  I'm going to post all my damping schemes in the not too distant future, and will be happy to help you implement them in a wooden enclosure.  It has the potential to help with SQ.  Though I've already gotten the response to where I think the driver is the limiting factor, so I'm not sure how much benefit you would really see.  Definitely some though.

That's awesome that you're giving this information out to the ortho/modding community, two thumbs up. If only I could tolerate supra-aural  :'(
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: wiinippongamer on September 10, 2012, 05:08:03 AM
Really interested in that experimental scheme that you hope changes the way we think about damping RD. Have you posted it anywhere yet?
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Dyaems on September 10, 2012, 05:36:49 AM
i dont think RD posted the damping scheme yet
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on September 10, 2012, 05:47:10 AM
Yeah it will happen.  But I'm not sure how I'm going to share it because I don't want people using my ideas in their commercial mods.  I might just have to let go of it and let them.  Not sure. 
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Dyaems on September 10, 2012, 06:02:20 AM
the yamaha orthos already stopped in its production, right? so i dont think "those people" can easily mass produce them like the t50rp even if they copy your damping scheme.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on September 10, 2012, 06:41:41 AM
Yeah but it's usable for the T50rp too.  It's kind of universal ortho damping stuff. 
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Dyaems on September 10, 2012, 06:44:12 AM
oh, that is indeed a problem :)p18
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Sforza on September 10, 2012, 06:53:25 AM
Yeah it will happen.  But I'm not sure how I'm going to share it because I don't want people using my ideas in their commercial mods.  I might just have to let go of it and let them.  Not sure.

I'd suggest releasing it as a document under Creative Commons if ever. I'd suggest the Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike license.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/

It'll at least let people know that you're strongly discouraging making a profit from the mods.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: rhythmdevils on September 10, 2012, 06:56:27 AM
Very cool!  I might pm you and see if you have any tips.  That does sound like the answer. 
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: namaiki on November 25, 2013, 09:29:10 AM
Any clue what the FR graph for these stock looks like?
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: MuZo2 on November 27, 2013, 08:53:42 AM
Seems a old thread, wondering if the mod was published? can it be used for HP3.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: shipsupt on November 27, 2013, 02:29:09 PM
RhythmDevils has long shared his mod tips with the world over on Head-Fi in the epic Ortho thread, well, until they banned him. 

I doubt that there is one clear concise description of what he did with these, but you could do some searching for his mod-posts and get some ideas of the kinds of stuff he does. 
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: namaiki on December 05, 2013, 11:41:19 AM
Any clue what the FR graph for these stock looks like?

http://www.head-fi.org/t/111193/orthodynamic-roundup/22230#post_10016864 <- I was given one here. Not sure how it was compensated but it looks rather reasonable to me. Too bad Yamaha stopped making these.

Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: stratocaster on September 28, 2014, 03:05:01 PM
I had long been planning to repair my set of HP-1s that had a broken driver. Couple of days ago now I finally got hold of a pair of HP-1s (thanks Tasoeur and welcome, by the way!) and since I now have a measurement rig available I thought I could very well publish measurements of the stock phones as well as the modded pair.

Pic1: B/W Ebony HP1s (open back, with HM5 velour pads)
Pic 2: Stock HP-1 - Left
Pic 3: Stock - CSD
Pic 4: Modded - Left
Pic 5: Modded - CSD


Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Tasoeur on September 28, 2014, 07:02:11 PM
Very nice mod, they're gorgeous ! I definitly want to listen to your cans  p:3 I've never heard an open Yammy !
Nice FR graph but the treble is still an issue  :wheel:

Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Sholay on September 28, 2014, 07:20:41 PM
Having heard 2 aniso and 1 normal HP1 (all modded to their potential.....by Gurubhai), i have lost interest in commercial headphones. LCD2 and HE400 are the only expensive headphones i have experience with and the HP1 kills them both with ease. HE400 feels like a joke in comparison while LCD2 though good is too shelved.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Thujone on September 28, 2014, 09:06:11 PM
The headphones always look good, strato, but the measurements are looking great as well! Well done  :)p5
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: gurubhai on September 29, 2014, 01:16:40 AM
Great looking headphone, stratos. I have always wondered about an open back Yammie myself.So, what do they sound like?

Having heard 2 aniso and 1 normal HP1 (all modded to their potential.....by Gurubhai), i have lost interest in commercial headphones. LCD2 and HE400 are the only expensive headphones i have experience with and the HP1 kills them both with ease. HE400 feels like a joke in comparison while LCD2 though good is too shelved.
LOL, didn't mean to turn you or anyone away from commercial headphones. Like I said during the meet, I am planning to purchase a HD800 myself. I am really curious how the new OTL performs with a more optimal load since it has easily bested all my previous amps even with the orthos.
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: dBel84 on September 29, 2014, 01:27:35 AM
Reminds me of a prototype I made with the YH100 a few years ago

(http://cdn.head-fi.org/2/24/640x480px-24dfa161_Picture027.jpg)

It sounded good but it was before I was wizened to the idea of measuring performance. The plan was to mill the final cup out of micarta but this was as far as the project got .... best laid plans of M+M.

..dB
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: stratocaster on September 29, 2014, 11:48:22 AM
So, what do they sound like?

Even if it sounds like hyperbole, the sound that these produce is deeply satisfying to my ears. There is nothing that immediately strikes me as bothersome or wrong.  When I listen to them, and I have done so for quite some time since I finished them, I become immersed in the music. They sound extremely natural, with good timbre and the drivers provide nice resolution and instrument separation. Using the thicker and wider HM5 velour pads the soundstage, which is no wonder,  is greatly improved over stock. Bass is deep and extended, does not overblow, male and female vocals are rendered marvellously, the signature being a little laid-back yet not warm, there is no sibilance or false detail, and surprisingly, nothing I would have expected beforehand,  there is a lot of air.
 I guess, I have found a new favourite.

The highs can be tuned quite a bit by using a kind of felt fazor inside the cups. I will include twoquick and dirty measurements to show this. My ears, though, tell me, there is nothing wrong with the highs without any fazor. The peak around 7kHz is broad enough, there is no ringing, the CSD graph shows quite some speed, resulting in a very clean treble.

Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: gurubhai on September 29, 2014, 02:30:33 PM
Thanks for the detailed impressions stratos. The hp-1 is personal favourite of mine as well and it has been that way for a few years now, so I would never consider its praise as hyperbole.  :)
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: Sholay on September 29, 2014, 03:33:00 PM
Thanks for the detailed impressions stratos. The hp-1 is personal favourite of mine as well and it has been that way for a few years now, so I would never consider its praise as hyperbole.  :)
I am telling you, send either of your HP1 for measurements. The world should know :)
Title: Re: Yamaha YH-1 (modded) Frequency Response and CSD Waterfall Plot Measurements
Post by: stratocaster on December 29, 2014, 10:07:18 AM
Played around with my HP-1 a bit, trying some HifiMan FocusPads. I also applied some StratoPad treatment, which means that I am using a ring of felt between baffle and pad to allow some sound leakage in order to finetune the FR.
It is really amazing to see and hear the changes once you swap pads and change the damping scheme ...