CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Pirate's Booty and Walking the Plank => Topic started by: Marvey on October 03, 2014, 03:34:04 AM
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Pyrate Leaderboard
The old one was getting stale. Bringing this back in a slightly different format. Still a work in progress.
DYNAMIC HEADPHONES
Koss KSC-75
Buy one for yourself, and several more to mod and give to your friends.
NVX XPT100
Otherwise known as Fischer FA003, Brainwavz HM5 etc. Good clean sound, good mids, good tonal balance but with some minor treble funkiness which can be overlooked because of its low price.
Sennheiser HD558/598
Find it for cheap - the occasional special. This is where to start for open backed headphones. A touch more upper-mid / lower-treble than HD600/650. Less clear and resolving as HD600/650. Not quite as high fidelity sounding, but that's OK considering discounted street prices. A great entry level open headphone to start with. The next logical step would be the HD600/HD650.
AKG K7XX
Nice warm sound as opposed to the leaner and colder K701. Tonal balance less irregular than Q701. Slightly sharp and rougher in treble compared to HD600, but also less shrill in upper mids. Also a bit less resolving than HD600, but has marginally better quality bass. A Massdrop special at $200 that's hard to complain about.
Beyer DT880-600ohm
Even frequency response except a little hot in the mid-treble which can be corrected with EQ. Some people run tubes to take the edge off. The higher ohm versions are considered better sounding with smoother less metallic treble. Avoid 80 ohm version. Semi-closed back.
Focal Spirit Pro*
Warmish and mostly laid back but sometimes with a touch of upper-mid forwardness or mid-treble sizzle. Voicing reminds me of the big Focal speakers. Overall a good tonal response. Conditional recommendation because of fit issues. The original owner of mine sold them to me because of fit issues. And I sold them to someone else because of fit issues. Small ears and hobbit sized heads may fare better.
Sennheiser HD600/HD580
Well balanced open-back headphone. Make sure pads are in good condition, otherwise vocals can sound shrill. Smooth treble. Bass quality, especially sub and low bass is biggest weakness compared to most orthos. Scales like mad - keeps on resolving. Throw this headphone on a TOTL amp with good power and you will be amazed. Many of us have commented that we would have saved a lot of money had we started with this headphone.
Sennheiser HD650
Darker with laid back upper mids compared to HD600. Make sure you have newer silver driver version. The older driver versions are supposed to sound more veiled.
Sennheiser HD800*
Extracts low level information like no other. Conditional recommendation. Requires pristine non-bright recordings, suitable gear combination, and/or modifications. I don't think much more needs to be said about it. Tends to work well with a lot of classical records - because of the way most classical recordings are mic'd and mixed.
Fostex TH900*
Thunderous but very clean sub-low bass which does not intrude into the mids. Nice clear sound - possibly the clearest sounding dynamic around. These two qualities (clean bass and clear sound) are very notable for this dynamic can. However, sharp treble, but can be made to work with appropriately chosen upstream gear. Technically, it's a closed headphone, but don't expect it to seal well. There's lots of sound leakage. Quite expensive, but materials quality is top notch.
PLANAR HEADPHONES
HE400S
Holy crap amazeballs deal! Fairly neutral sounding headphone, lowish distortion. Slight mid-treble peak, and some bass roll-off, but tweak with Focus pads $40 or wrap electrical tape around the stock pads to extend bass down low. A no brainer introduction to orthodynamic sound.
PM-3
A bit fun bassy and lush sound. Great comfort, great form factor, at the right price. Drive with a good solid-state amp or low output Z amp.
HE-560*
Needs careful matching and maybe some tweaks like the Focus-A pads or various mods which reduces treble shrillness. I've heard this can sound bright. It's recording dependent. I've heard it sound neutral. More comfortable than the prior generation. Efficient, but avoid most tube amps. Really picky with equipment. Significantly more resolving and high quality bass than the HE-500. Transient response not quite at HE-6 levels. At its best in a good setup, sounds like a baby Abyss.
HE-6*
Outperforms all other HFM headphones in technicalities, but conditional on mods and appropriate amp. Ask Clem, Gourami, or Purplegoat on what they did to theirs as I could never stand the treble etch stock HE-6s. Need high quality amp with decent power. Vintage amplifiers with the high output Z headphone outs tend to work as they soften the treble edge; however they also leave a lot of things behind.
Abyss
Best bass quality evar. Separation and layering akin to high performance two channel setup. Realistic non-diffuse image. Very clean with great blackground. Fast transient response. Not as resolving as the resolution king, the HD800. Infinitely tweakable with cup angle, pads, cables of choice. Somewhat rough treble. Heavy, but suspension headband works for most people. Make sure amp and DAC treble characteristics are smooth. Insane price, but fills a unique niche. This is the SR-009s evil twin.
ESP950
Get it whenever it goes on sale. Comes with free amp. Neutralish electrostatic headphone. No deep bass, but hey, nothing's perfect.
STAX SR-009
Headphone with the best "get out of the way" characteristic of any other headphone. Mid-centric headphone that lacks visceral bass. Takes the trademark STAX ethereal delicate sound to another level. Smoothest treble evar.
Paradox/Slants
Closely related so counting them as one. Paradox is more neutral. Slants more a tad more bassy with better stage depth. Has a slight emphasis in mid-treble, but otherwise two of the best tonally balanced headphones out there. The most "coherent" or "together" of the T50RP based headphones. Built to order. Not cheap, but not priced fairly for its performance.
IN EAR MONITORS
Ultimate Ears In-Ear Reference Monitor
Since they are based on the Yamaha NS10, very neutral. Maybe too neutral, therefore match with appropriate gear. Most people will bitch about no having enough bass. Purists will probably not complain. One of the most coherent and together sounding multi-driver CIEMs. Every other founding pyrate owns this.
Noble 4C
Warmer and larger space. A noteworthy alternative to UERM.
Fischer DBA-02 and Variants (Brainwavz B2, Rockit R50)
Deep insertion required for extended bass response. Can be slightly bright.
Ety ER4S*
Classic. Must play with tips and insertion to avoid overly thin sound. Filters or a little EQ might help. Single driver coherency and purity of tone.
Zero Audio Carbo Tenore.
Warm relaxed listen for an OMG price.
PORTABLE GEAR
Geek Out 450
Amazingly powerful, black background, hyper-detailed, for its price. Get rid of your Hugo. Now. One must is to install the latest firmware which fixes the coarse volume control (now controlled via PC instead of the two buttons) and offers two digital filters. One digital filter has a more full-bodied sound for those who are allergic to SABRE.
Leckerton UHA-6S
All variants. Forget the built-in DAC. The amp is best part and actually beats a lot of desktop crap. Every other founding pyrate owns some variant of this.
Astell & Kern AK Jr.
Good UI and sounds good - maybe better than some of its bigger brothers (Wolfson chip > Cirrus), although less features. Actually sort of affordable at $500.
Sansa Clip+
Rockbox it. Dirt cheap and it works.
Schiit Fulla
Dirt cheap and has a volume knob. Needs a device capable of providing juice from a USB port.
DIGITAL (value)
AMB Gamma2
Great tone with good slam for such a small DAC.
Schiit Wyrd*
USB power conditioner and data-reclocker. Wyrd can add focus, balls and bass extension to $99 Modi, making it sound like a $400 DAC. Wyrd can make an MSB DAC sound better. Wyrd can make a lot of DACs sound better. Or it can make a DAC sound different. Or possibly worse.
Schiit Gungnir Gen 2 USB
Ensure quality power or use a Tripplite Isobar for best results. Add a Wyrd too to improve microdynamics, microdetail, and deepen soundstage. Smooth. Not SABRE. Sweet vocals. Hits damn hard. Sounds like a DAC some dude from Theta would make.
Matrix X-Sabre
A tad lean sounding with some Sabre treble hash in the last octave that some may find difficult. Otherwise tonally cohesive and pretty darn resolving with good attack, clarity, and blackground. Real-time convert PCM to DSD and feed via DoP to the X-Sabre for best results. This Sabre DAC stands above other Sabre DACs near or above its price range, give or take a few hundred.
AMPLIFIERS (value)
Schiit Vali
Holy schiit Jason, this is better than the Lyr (1)! Yeah, yeah. No one will believe me.
Schiit Valhalla 2
Neutralish, clear, highly resolving tube implementation. Best with high impedance or high sensitivity headphones.
Bottlehead Crack
The speedball upgrade is highly recommended. DIY or have someone else build it for you. Roll tubes and tweak parts like capacitors to your delight. Doc Bottlehead's contribution to good sound must be noted. High output impedance, so ortho headphones need not apply.
Project Ember V2
DIGITAL (no limit - make Nwavguy minions barf and ridicule you for your stupidity)
Bricasti M1
Best delta-sigma DAC we've heard so far. Hyper-detailed but not hyper-detailed, dynamic but not, bassy and trebly, but not. Making no sense at all. I think that's a good thing.
MSB Analog + Power Supply
Smooth and buttery. Natural timbre. Neutral response. Dynamic. Great soundstage. Porsche like options do add up.
Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5
One of the best USB digital transports out there with most connectivity options. Even the standard no-frills version sounds good.
Schiit Yggdrasil
No comment. Read stuff about it on this forum and HF.
Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2
Find one for a great deal now that the Reference Series has been released. The downside is that it needs a top notch transport or USB converter. Has a lot of similarities to the PWD2 (upgraded from 1) units, but with better tonal characteristics, i.e. less digititus.
AMPLIFIERS (no limit - make Xnor and other nwavguy minions hurl and get very very angry at you)
Eddie Current 4-45
Space, the final frontier. Doubled output tubes to handle orthos.
Cavalli Liquid Glass
Do not use crappy new production tubes. Only as good as the tubes you throw in. Plenty of power and smooth.
Donald North Stratus 2A3
A touch of intimate tubey goodness. Appease the gods by lathering her toobs with soapy suds. Avoid power hungry headphones.
Schiit Ragnarok
Team America! Fuck Yeah!
FOR CONSIDERATION (still debating)
Beyer DT1350
V-Moda M-80
VINTAGE OR OOP STUFF
Joe Grado HP1000
STAX 007mk1
STAX SR-Omega
Sony MA900
HiFiMan HE-5
Sennheiser Orpheus
Theta Gen V
Theta Data III
Sonic Frontiers TransDAC
Spectral SDR-2000
Code-X
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I would like to nominate:
Dynamic: HD580/600 - 20yr+ old and still kicking. Scales extremely well, is comfortable, all user-replaceable parts, and is relatively cheap compared to many options out there now. But most importantly, it gets tonality right with very minor faults in the overall sound.
Planar: HE-560 - Improved comfort over the he-500, scales well, clean sound, neutral, and doesn't require tons of power.
Abyss - I've only heard it once out of the Woo setup, but I don't think any headphone comes close to the bass that the Abyss has.
IEMs - UERM - Do I really need to explain? A must-have for pirates everywhere. Totl CIEM with exceptional soundstage, imaging, clarity, details, and so on.
Portable - UHA-6s mkii for it's amazing power to drive CIEMs, rollable OPAMPs, and versatility. Does a fair job at full-sized headphones (probably better than a lot of desktop stuff out there). Dac section is complete crap though.
I would nominate the Gungnir... but I'm a little biased since I haven't compared it to many dacs.
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Maybe Bricasti M1? Perhaps best DAC we've heard so far. Problem is cost, delta sigma sound signature and possibly issues in signature coherence for bat ears.
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Oh yeah. Grado HP1000. One of the greatest headphone classics of all time and tuned by ear.
Koss ESP950. Best complete Stat you can buy for the money at $600 with an unlimited lifetime warranty.
Lots of Koss products should make it.
558/598, the 580/600/650s of their pricepoint.
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Sony MA900
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MA900 added to vintage :-)
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CIEM:
UERM - It's a reference for a reason.
Noble 4C - slightly warmer than UERM, better soundstage IMHO.
IEM:
Fischer Audio DBA-02 and it's variants
Dynamics:
Senn HD-600
Joe Grado HP-1000
Open Planar:
Abyss - but VERY expensive
HE-5 - Great sound. Hard to find now.
Electrostats:
Stax SR-009
Koss ESP950
Amps:
Cavalli Liquid Glass - my favorite amp to use with my headphones
Eddie Current - everything he makes
Portable Amps:
UHA-6S - Probably the best one out there
RSA Shadow - Tiny amp with great neutral sound
Portable Players:
Rockboxed iMOD iPOD with SSD drive
Rockbozed Sansa Clip+
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The sansa fuze has been discontinued for a long time, but falls under the same reasons as the clip+. Slightly bigger but the scrollwheel is so useful.
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Cavalli liquid gold?
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Personally, I like LG better than LAu and want to keep to an unwritten rule of keeping one item per MOT in the high-end areas. Otherwise we would probably list ever other piece of gear some of these guys ever made.
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Ety ER4S definitely belongs. I like the Koss PortaPro for cheapies.
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for CIEMs: is 1964 Ears not in the running? Really curious how you guys think they compare to UERM.
Also, with regard to UHA-6S: which opamp is the recommendation based on?
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Why no HE-6?
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Didn't like the liquid gold with the Abyss. At all.
I nominate the HE-6 (conditional on mods), Rag and M7 / SA-2.
Metrum Quad and SA-31 in the cheaper stuff.
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Put me down for the LGlass over Lau. Still my favorite Cavalli amp.
I'd say 209 or 4627 for the UHA6. Some seem fine with the 8610, I've never liked it.
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agreed on HE-6. I hated HE-6 stock, but your and gourami's mods made me think otherwise.
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Forgot the Fostex HP-A3 in the cheap AND portable stuff!
Re-262 in the IEMs.
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LG over LAu definitely.
I like the Koss PortaPro for cheapies.
If we can only pick one of the range, I'd take the KSC 75 over the portapro. $12 on sale and easy as all hell to mod.
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KSC75 FTFW!
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I haven't followed 1964 for a few years, but back then they were noticeably down the peg compared to UERM and ES5 standards. They were budget customs, not flagship CIEMs.
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Forgot the Fostex HP-A3 in the cheap AND portable stuff!
Vote against the Fostex. At $300, it's beat by the GO and the Herus in terms of portable units and the modi/asgard 2 or modi/vali depending on your needs for desktop units.
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what is SA-31? A russian missile?
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no luv 4 audeze?
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MA900 added to vintage :-)
MA900 is not OOP. It is only distributed in Japan, now. I'll leave you to decide where it belongs, given most of the world doesn't live in Japan.
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How much from PriceJapan. It's really only worth it if paid $150.
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no luv 4 audeze?
Tough call, so many reasons not to put them up. Apart from them being at the forefront of driving the horrible megabuck headphone trend, crushing vertebrae, and having highly questionable reliability and inconsistent audio performance it's going to be hard. Regardless, the current lineup all seem to have some sort of audible deal breaker that gets in the way for one person or another.
The best Audeze we've ever heard was an unicorn LCD3 that only lasted 48 hours and has never been repeated in any of the maybe 30+ Audeze samples we've gone through at this point. I think we'll need more positive and consistent experiences over time before we can do that. That's my take anyway.
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$220 shipped new via PJ. Still worth it IMO. They are the only headphones I use anymore.
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I need to hear these. I have trip to Nippon in the not to distant future and need to know if it's worth it. Can they displace or match the SA5000 in resolution?
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Probably not.
They are sorta between a HD600 and HD650 in tonality, but with soundstage of HD800s and unparalleled comfort. The HD800s are better, but for every day use (I use headphones 8-10 hrs a day) the MA900s are hard to beat. No chance of excessive treble bite like can occur from time to time with HD800s, and a bit stronger mid-bass for fuller body at lower volumes.
I'm not sure exactly why I like these so much. They are capable of HD800 depth of stage, but seem more direct, connecting to the music in a special way. So far I prefer X-Sabre -> Black Diamond -> MA900 over any other electronics combo (Mini-Is, M-Stage, GS-X2). GS-X2 is too rough in the treble, the M-Stage just isn't a good match at all, and the Mini-I units lack definition/detail.
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Ma900 did scale with 4-45. I think they can match. Possibly exceed resolution of sa5000. Sa5000 had notable scalability limitations.
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HE-4s are not OOP, either.
http://head-direct.com/Products/?act=detail&id=95
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Great list!
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Wow. The vali > Lyr, huh?
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What about the TH-900? :boom:
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I second the HE-4. May have had some inconsistency issues in the past but I've had a chance to try out a few pairs and they're all great, certainly for the price.
Also the Beefroast
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Focal Spirit professional. One of the best closed can ,all price ranges included. Not for large ear though.
I'm sure there're definitely better options for IEMS. Fitear for example.
Geek Out 450
Amazingly powerful, black background, hyper-detailed, for its price. Get rid of your Hugo. Now.
Seriously ? Hell no ! . This is a lethal weapon . Shitty volume control and it's very noisy with IEMs.... walk the plank
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Empirical Overdrive. OR5 class USB input, plus I2S, AES, and BNC. Very good VC allows it to double as a pre on the desktop, less so in the living room as there's no remote. Power base needs little in the way of fancy power conditioning as it uses switch mode supplies instead of toroids or R-cores. Now $6400-6750 down from $8K, and will easily take on the Analog and the Bricasti, or anything else up to $10K or so.
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Anyone tried the JBL J03B tempo headphones?
Heard one at a friend's place and really liked it.Great balance and no major issues which is quite rare for headphone that cheap, definitely would be my recommendation for a budget headphone.
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A very strong list. Add filters too to the ER4S entry, as you can really tune those things.
I'd drop HD558/598 completely. Maybe replace with Yoga CD880 clones.
FSP sounds very good, but comfort and build quality are poo.
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Geek Out 450
Amazingly powerful, black background, hyper-detailed, for its price. Get rid of your Hugo. Now.
Seriously ? Hell no ! . This is a lethal weapon . Shitty volume control and it's very noisy with IEMs.... walk the plank
Update your firmware. It's a whole different beast now.
Many of us were using it solely as a DAC previously to other amps as well.
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I'd drop HD558/598 completely. Maybe replace with Yoga CD990 clones.
The Fischer clones? LFF here is the one that brought the Fischers to the forefront.
I think they have a different signature and I'm not sure where you would buy the Yogas and for how much.
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Anax, am I right that your ciem ue ierm set doesn't have the harshness and ear fatigue that the universal set had? Any other differences?
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I know they are already up on the list, but definitely the HD600 and HD650. If you can find either of them in the $275-350 range, I think they're a steal relative to most other headphones. Competitive with some of the supposedly "better" or, at least, more expensive headphones on the market. I've never found a perfect headphone. So, they're not perfect, but they do seem to do more right in general and less wrong than many other better and/or more expensive headphones.
Stock, both have a noticeable emphasis centered around 100Hz. Coupled with some slightly high harmonic distortion in the bass, more so on the HD600, you get a slightly muddy or slow sounding headphone when compared to the best. The HD600 to me was a bit hot in the 1-4KHz range and could use extra treble smoothness. The HD650 is smoother up top, especially in that 1-4KHz range, but might be a bit too recessed and laid-back in spots. In the end, these are pretty minor complaints compared to many other headphones. Regardless, they offer a very enjoyable sound stock and, as I've read, scale very well.
Now, based on my experiments and subjective impressions, stick some damping in the back of the cups, and maybe some in the front, and that goes a long way in cleaning up the HD600/650's bass and overall sound. More cohesive. Cleaner. Put some damping in front if you need even smoother upper-mids and treble. Stretch them out if the clamp is too hard, which should also improve the treble response.
I bought these and realized I should have stopped dancing around the Senns for years. Always had some excuse to not buy them and try something else. These should have been my first "high-end" headphone purchase. That's why I'd nominate them.
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Anax, am I right that your ciem ue ierm set doesn't have the harshness and ear fatigue that the universal set had? Any other differences?
Yes and yes, but I need to get with UE before I can make any final judgements. It's been difficult to get together due to communication and timing issues and now they have RMAF to deal with.
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Hans, do you have pics of the dampening inside? I saw the links you posted in the HD650 measurements thread but I can't recall any photos. I'd like to give it a try on the 580's!
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No, but I can get some! Remind me if I forget. I guess I just thought it would be pretty obvious to anyone that took a look inside the cups, but I know that's not always the case (easy for the guy doing the mod, right?). I also encourage people to try their own materials and mods, as I was just going to something simple and cheap with what I had on hand. Wasn't trying to imply I stumbled on the best materials or best config. :)
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I definitely like to experiment a bit, just trying to figure out where you put it. I guess it's been a while since I've taken my grills off...
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I've owned at least 6 different HD600/HD650s over the years. I'd just like to add that the stock HD600 cable sounds pretty grainy / crappy to me. I don't spend a lot on cables, but I've always noticed a change on these.
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Update your firmware. It's a whole different beast now.
Many of us were using it solely as a DAC previously to other amps as well.
Too late . I borrowed the Geek Out a few days , tried it once. heard my IEM (SE535) as loud as little speakers on my desk . After that, I settled the volume, heard the noise and send the Geek Out back immediately.
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I ordered a GO 450 today to compare to my ODAC/Leckerton UHA-6S.MKII combo (couldn't pass it up for $140). I didn't even know about the new firmware. That's a pleasant surprise. I'll have to update it when it comes in!
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I’d like to second (or third…) the FSP. And one last shill for the Zero Audio Carbo Tenore. :)p6
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The HD600 to me was a bit hot in the 1-4KHz range and could use extra treble smoothness. The HD650 is smoother up top, especially in that 1-4KHz range, but might be a bit too recessed and laid-back in spots. In the end, these are pretty minor complaints compared to many other headphones. Regardless, they offer a very enjoyable sound stock and, as I've read, scale very well.
Totally agree!
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I'd drop HD558/598 completely. Maybe replace with Yoga CD990 clones.
The Fischer clones? LFF here is the one that brought the Fischers to the forefront.
I think they have a different signature and I'm not sure where you would buy the Yogas and for how much.
I thought Yoga was the OEM, and Fischer et al. got it from them. So I meant all of those (FA003 original version, HM5, XPT100, &c.).
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I'd drop HD558/598 completely. Maybe replace with Yoga CD990 clones.
The Fischer clones? LFF here is the one that brought the Fischers to the forefront.
I think they have a different signature and I'm not sure where you would buy the Yogas and for how much.
I thought Yoga was the OEM, and Fischer et al. got it from them. So I meant all of those (FA003 original version, HM5, XPT100, &c.).
Yeah, think so. I just don't see any of the Yoga CD990 for sale anymore though. Looks OOP.
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on the fence with FSP, HE-4, a few others. we need more convincing:
HE-4 agree - helluva deal, kinda of a hidden secret, but too much like HE-5, HE-6 (esp in treble) if you guys know what I mean. And honestly, I'd like to limit conditional recommendations to higher end stuff.
FSP - the sound was almost OK, but I found the forward upper mids troublesome. The fit was just craptastic. my ears stick out a little, but they are not Alan Greenspan ears.
I'm almost positive EA Overdrive would make it to the list, but need to hear with music and gear I know to verify.
need more seconds for the Tenore.
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I second the Tenore.
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FSP cracks on 50% of the models I've seen. I recommended it to a few coworkers. All four of them have small headband cracks around the screws.
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I actually thought the area around 2khz was a little recessed on the FSP, which was to my liking and made me think of my then he-400's timbre to a very small extent. There was a problematic area around 3-4khz that was a little edgy.
I wrote it on Tyll's site for the FSP and I'll write it here too. Its fit is so garbage that I'd never consider it to be a wall-of-fame candidate. I'd almost say the same thing about the Audezes (especially the fazor'd ones) and their stupid weight, but their earpads feel so great on the ears.
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Bottlehead crack for senns?
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I'd suggest the ZA Tenore as well. I think they sound quite good. Very enjoyable to listen to. Surprising sound for the size. And then the price...$50 or so? I think you could get away charging double or triple that easy and still have a good deal (compared to some other IEMs I've tested, which isn't many TBH). Perhaps not neutral or technical masters, but decent soundstage, warm and thick sound (in a good way, still sounds balanced and cohesive), smooth highs that don't lack too much detail. I started recommending them to some friends very quickly after I heard them.
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I'd like to nominate the VSonic GR07 Classic for IEMs. At $100, I think these represent a fantastic value.
This is a bit conditional, in my opinion, as one should probably be willing to play with an equalizer a bit to tame the VSonic brightness. However, with properly applied EQ, I think the money is buying some awfully good sound, and VSonic earphones are pretty strong in the build department. Rotating nozzles and small earpieces make for a comfortable, highly ergonomic fit.
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I'd like to nominate the VSonic GR07 Classic for IEMs. At $100, I think these represent a fantastic value.
This is a bit conditional, in my opinion, as one should probably be willing to play with an equalizer a bit to tame the VSonic brightness. However, with properly applied EQ, I think the money is buying some awfully good sound, and VSonic earphones are pretty strong in the build department. Rotating nozzles and small earpieces make for a comfortable, highly ergonomic fit.
When they were $180 I did not think they offered any value at all and still don't care much for the signature due to the lack of refinement and treble tizz. $100 is more tempting for sure. But if you have to use Eq then you can open up about 70% fo all the IEMs and headphones on the market for nomination. I think we should let other sites who are more forgiving do that IMO.
I'd rather see that $20 Monoprice IEM back on the list first.
I'd also like to caveat that the Abyss can't do strings for shit no matter how you mod them. I think for some like myself it's a deal breaker.
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Bottlehead crack for senns?
Within the value segment, the Valhalla 2 is a great match for the 6x Senns as well.
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What about the RE-400?
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What about the RE-400?
A touch veiled, lacking in resolution and dynamics for me. On the forgiving side of warm neutrality. Not great, just meh, okay IMO.
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I'd almost say the same thing about the Audezes (especially the fazor'd ones) and their stupid weight, but their earpads feel so great on the ears.
Oh, really? If you are talking about the Audeze leather ones, Alpha Pads are much much better IMHO. Along with Audeze's clamp of death, stupid weight and even more stupid leather headband design, it's more like wearing a torture device than a headphone.
I was worried about trying any thick leather pads again after owning two Audeze headphones, too scared... But fortunately, someone knows how to design comfortable pads that sound great and breathe quite naturally. Audeze should COMPLETELY redesign their headphones because it's quite ridiculous what kind of money they want for this... (not gonna continue to stay polite).
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My choices:
Topping the list: KGSShv with the Stax 009 (this is really a cut above the rest, IMO)
2. HE 6 with my receiver (but this darn thing needs upgrading, waiting for definitive word on the pairing with the Rag)
3. HD 800 with the ZD, Vali coming in next
4. Bottlehead Crack+Speedball with the HD 650
Honorable mention goes to the li'l Project Ember and the HD 800 combo.
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ODAC owner here, barfing, throwing things, and suffering terrible audiophile-insecurity upgraditis!
:vomit: :boom:
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FSP cracks on 50% of the models I've seen. I recommended it to a few coworkers. All four of them have small headband cracks around the screws.
This is the only thing that makes me hesitate on a FSP recommendation. Focal needs to get its shit together in terms of ergonomics and build quality.
I'd put forward the V-Moda M-80 for the list. With the introduction of the XS, the M-80s have been going for dirt cheap on the aftermarkets. I got a new pair for a friend the other day for $60. They've routinely been around $75-80 used lately. Excellent headphone for the price. The XS is a tiny bit better, but you can get an M-80 for around 1/3 of the cost.
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Still no love for the Bifrost, eh?
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OK for FSP. I see the point. FSC ( Focal Spirit Classic) fixes the crackling problem with a better heaband bluid and it's slightly darker the fixes the bothersome upper mids for sensitive people. Comfort is the same though .
BTW , I won't be offensed if nobody agree with me . p:/
I love the HE-4 too but I didn't heard the HE-5 and 6 yet.
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What about the RE-400?
A touch veiled, lacking in resolution and dynamics for me. On the forgiving side of warm neutrality. Not great, just meh, okay IMO.
I have a balanced pair. I don't find it veiled but do find it a little peaky and uneven in treble, as I find most Hifiman iems. I'd probably take the BA200 over it but would take the Tenore over both.
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I have the RE-400. I only payed 70 for it and it was a good value. It isolates well and is stupidly comfortable. However I think the sound is only passable. It's decently balanced, but the upper midrange is a little shouty, and the sound as a whole is a little plasticky. It's not very articulate and lacks in treble.
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The initial few runs, the RE-400 liked to break. It's a bit of a thing with hifiman iems. Maybe they've fixed it?
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Seems they might've. Mine have been through the ringer and haven't broken yet.
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Still no love for the Bifrost, eh?
With the Gungnir at home, I've put the Uber in the office and yep, it does not match up with the former, IMO
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Still no love for the Bifrost, eh?
With the Gungnir at home, I've put the Uber in the office and yep, it does not match up with the former, IMO
That's like saying the Magni doesn't measure up to the Ragnarok. :-\
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Still no love for the Bifrost, eh?
With the Gungnir at home, I've put the Uber in the office and yep, it does not match up with the former, IMO
That's like saying the Magni doesn't measure up to the Ragnarok. :-\
Well sorry mate, these are the only two DACs I have
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No worries. I do expect the Gungnir to be better, though I haven't listened to it myself. I hope that the the Gungnir and Uberfrost are about equal in terms of value.
I have limited experience with DACs in general but the Uberfrost has consistently been a highly recommended DAC on this forum.
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Trying hard to avoid listing everything from Schiit. The SQ/price ratio is insane for their latest round of stuff. The Wyrd/Modi thing was kind of a joke. A serious joke though. I should list only Wyrd instead.
Valhalla 2 deserves to be up there no doubt.
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Understandable. In the same light, maybe the DT880 deserves a bit of a mention in the dynamic category in order to not have only Senn cans.
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What about the RE-400?
Wow, yours sounds brighter than the pairs I had heard. You think the balanced output of your source is helping that?
Never felt the RE1 or RE262 to have too much trouble with treble.
A touch veiled, lacking in resolution and dynamics for me. On the forgiving side of warm neutrality. Not great, just meh, okay IMO.
I have a balanced pair. I don't find it veiled but do find it a little peaky and uneven in treble, as I find most Hifiman iems. I'd probably take the BA200 over it but would take the Tenore over both.
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Understandable. In the same light, maybe the DT880 deserves a bit of a mention in the dynamic category in order to not have only Senn cans.
I don't think DT880s are good enough to be on the Board... I would vote for AKG K712 Pro if anything (but there are plenty of dynamic headphones in the similar price range and therefore I suspect there might be something better among them).
As I said, my one and only suggestion as of now is Hifiman HE-4 (as a conditional recommendation). Otherwise, the headphone list is spot-on IMHO.
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Yeah, to each their own. I couldn't stand the 2kHz AKG peak, while others can't stand the DT880's 8kHz peak. Of course, they are completely different sounding in general.
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Yeah, to each their own. I couldn't stand the 2kHz AKG peak, while others can't stand the DT880's 8kHz peak. Of course, they are completely different sounding in general.
K712 Pro is the only x7xx headphone I like actually... the peak is still there but it's masked by the mid to upper bass. Then again, I suspect there may be even better options out there (like the recent X2?).
(I am fully into planar headphones... not interested in dynamics anymore)
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No AKGs please
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No AKGs please
Why? Have you heard all the AKG headphones out there to say such a thing? I am in no way an AKG fan but every headphone should have an equal chance of getting on the Board, regardless its brand.
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Except Ultrasone :)p17
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In my opinion this list is missing some closed dynamics. My suggestions would be the Shure SRH1540, NAD HP50, and TH900.
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IIRC, I've heard the K701, K702, Q701, K812. Meet or show demos, never long listening sessions (I wouldn't last very long anyway). All the newer ones I've tried have an obvious coloration in the upper mids, as Thujone mentioned. From what I understand the K712 is no better in that regard. Masking a certain coloration with extra bass/warmth? Not leaderboard material in my book. If we want to be that leniant with what we put on our Wall of Fame, certain modded Grados would be a better choice.
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I'd choose the Senn Momentum over the NAD50. Similar-ish sound, but far far better comfort with the Momentums (over-ear) which makes more of a difference than people give credit for.
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I have both RE400 and Tenore and use each sometimes, but I don't think either makes the cut.
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Not sold on the K702 or anything similar (K712 and 812 don't look much better). Distortion is a problem at high volumes = low-fi sound. Upper-mid/treble coloration, especially a peak I heard around 2KHz, killed it for me. Now, AKG has a ton of entirely different headphones, so I can only speak for these sort of headphones they put out.
Momentum to me was just weird sounding. Couldn't get a good fit from an over-ear or on-ear perspective.
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IIRC, I've heard the K701, K702, Q701, K812. Meet or show demos, never long listening sessions (I wouldn't last very long anyway). All the newer ones I've tried have an obvious coloration in the upper mids, as Thujone mentioned. From what I understand the K712 is no better in that regard. Masking a certain coloration with extra bass/warmth? Not leaderboard material in my book. If we want to be that leniant with what we put on our Wall of Fame, certain modded Grados would be a better choice.
The K712 is better in that regard. The 701s bass was meh and not all that tight, the 712's is (slightly) better for the context of the headphone. Tonally, the 601/612 is still less offensive than the 7s. Still a damn good headphone for gaming.
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LOL... I mentioned once that I would rather add K712 Pro than DT880 (and that I suspect there may be better choices than K712 Pro, at the same time) and tons of posts about how AKGs suck follows :D Funny!
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Got some time with a coworker's Valhalla 2 last week. Holy moly, one heck of an HD800 amp at the price point
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What about the RE-400?
Wow, yours sounds brighter than the pairs I had heard. You think the balanced output of your source is helping that?
Never felt the RE1 or RE262 to have too much trouble with treble.
A touch veiled, lacking in resolution and dynamics for me. On the forgiving side of warm neutrality. Not great, just meh, okay IMO.
I have a balanced pair. I don't find it veiled but do find it a little peaky and uneven in treble, as I find most Hifiman iems. I'd probably take the BA200 over it but would take the Tenore over both.
I didn't like the re400 single ended when it first came out. It was more like how you described. A little warm over neutral and a hair veiled, small and boxy sounding. My much newer Balanced version sounds more open, neutral and appealing.
The balanced isn't bright, and peaky is perhaps not the right descriptor but uneven definitely is. The re262, while being laid back is also uneven in treble. Just kind of grates on my nerves.
The re600. While being technically good and fairly linear, has fairly odd timbre to some instruments due to the shelved down treble. Everything sounds over damped with missing treble.
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I'd choose the Senn Momentum over the NAD50. Similar-ish sound, but far far better comfort with the Momentums (over-ear) which makes more of a difference than people give credit for.
I can see that. I've tried both on and the HP50 do have a bit of an odd fit. On the other hand the Momentum's ear cups are too small for my monkey ears.
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you guys had no problem with the Tenore?
I was going to buy them, but after some reading on headfi I changed my mind, their QC seens to be really bad.
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I had no qc issues with my Tenore. It sounds fine to me with stock tips, but I don't like the cable noise. Very acceptable as my spare pair though.
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My pair took a shit in about a month of use.
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these IEMs are so cheap but have that balanced audiophile signature I was looking for, I'm over full size headphones now
http://penonaudio.com/brands/HAVI/HAVI-B3-PRO
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My pair took a shit in about a month of use.
So, pretty constipated then?
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should we drop them? $50, but still shouldn't die that quickly. anyone else have a QC issue?
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CTs are going strong.
Mine went out in one ear. Even tried to recable myself but it was the driver not the cable.
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I have 2 pairs of Tenores, both are good so far
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Mine seems OK so far.
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Love the recommendation of the Valhalla 2, no real weakness compared to the Crack w Speedball and excellent pairing with modded HD800s. Wish there are moar SS choices if any on the list but hey, most of them are crap unless its somewhat unobtanium/diy in nature.
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Love the recommendation of the Valhalla 2, no real weakness compared to the Crack w Speedball and excellent pairing with modded HD800s. Wish there are moar SS choices if any on the list but hey, most of them are crap unless its somewhat unobtanium/diy in nature.
I second the SS... I would even add a special category for it, distinguishing tube amplifiers from SS amplifiers. If most SS amplifiers are supposed to be crap, we should at least know what to buy then. I don't want tubes and Schiit stuff is severely overpriced in Europe (like 2x more expensive and even more in some places).
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Schiit stuff is severely overpriced in Europe (like 2x more expensive and even more in some places).
Fortunately, it's not the case in France ;-)
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Schiit stuff is severely overpriced in Europe (like 2x more expensive and even more in some places).
Fortunately, it's not the case in France ;-)
Oh, really? Show me where to get Mjolnir for 700USD, for example, then... I've only seen 700EUR or even 700GBP. Prices here, where I am, are even more extreme... 1350USD for Mjolnir.
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Tor4,
on HF I see certain used Mojos for $600-650 USD. Can't you import them, pay customs and still be ahead?
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Schiit stuff is severely overpriced in Europe (like 2x more expensive and even more in some places).
Fortunately, it's not the case in France ;-)
Oh, really? Show me where to get Mjolnir for 700USD, for example, then... I've only seen 700EUR or even 700GBP. Prices here, where I am, are even more extreme... 1350USD for Mjolnir.
I see pricing of 570GBP and 749 EUR on the Mjolnir. How is that overpriced? The USD price of $749 on Schiit's website does NOT include tax/VAT or duty. To me that sounds like Schiit is able to (amazingly) maintain almost (or exactly) the same price in multiple geos despite their internet direct sales model. If you are curious, that's 21% increase in the UK and 25% increase in France. Considering VAT is 20%, the pricing is 1-5% more than the US.
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Tor4,
on HF I see certain used Mojos for $600-650 USD. Can't you import them, pay customs and still be ahead?
That's what I am doing... Along with using certain methods to avoid paying ultra high customs and VAT fees because otherwise I would be completely screwed.
Wish I could live in the US... All the stuff easily accessible, loaners from Changstar on a regular basis, incomparably lower prices for gear + higher salaries at the same time.
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Schiit stuff is severely overpriced in Europe (like 2x more expensive and even more in some places).
Fortunately, it's not the case in France ;-)
Oh, really? Show me where to get Mjolnir for 700USD, for example, then... I've only seen 700EUR or even 700GBP. Prices here, where I am, are even more extreme... 1350USD for Mjolnir.
I see pricing of 570GBP and 749 EUR on the Mjolnir. How is that overpriced? The USD price of $749 on Schiit's website does NOT include tax/VAT or duty. To me that sounds like Schiit is able to (amazingly) maintain almost (or exactly) the same price in multiple geos despite their internet direct sales model. If you are curious, that's 21% increase in the UK and 25% increase in France. Considering VAT is 20%, the pricing is 1-5% more than the US.
How is 749EUR and 749 almost the same? You have to take VAT into account of course, also custom clearance fees, expensive shipment from the US... Also, depends on where you are located - as I said, we have different prices for Schiit gear where I am located. Also, you have to take strength of currency into account, salaries etc. Real world is much more complicated.
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Tor4,
on HF I see certain used Mojos for $600-650 USD. Can't you import them, pay customs and still be ahead?
If it's of any consolation, I face the same issues importing into India. Sometimes I get very lucky and pay nada. Normally its 30%.
That's what I am doing... Along with using certain methods to avoid paying ultra high customs and VAT fees because otherwise I would be completely screwed.
Wish I could live in the US... All the stuff easily accessible, loaners from Changstar on a regular basis, incomparably lower prices for gear + higher salaries at the same time.
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Schiit stuff is severely overpriced in Europe (like 2x more expensive and even more in some places).
Fortunately, it's not the case in France ;-)
Oh, really? Show me where to get Mjolnir for 700USD, for example, then... I've only seen 700EUR or even 700GBP. Prices here, where I am, are even more extreme... 1350USD for Mjolnir.
VAT + Dollars to Euro conversion. Nothing wrong with a 750€ price IMO . audiophonics.fr proposes the Mjolnir ar 749€ . It's a fair price and allow us to have a good after sale service. Counter example: Stax price in France are Insane compared to Japan prices.
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The old PX100 and PX200 II should receive an honourable mention if you ask me. Apart from that great leader board. I ordered a second KSC75 within 24 hours after auditioning the first KSC75...
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What`s the deal with the KSC75?
Any mods to make them shine?
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The old PX100 and PX200 II should receive an honourable mention if you ask me.
PX100 surprised me and I kind of agree. Very large sound for something so small and unassuming. Can do late Romantic symphonies, if you don't mind all the extra bass or are outdoors.
PX200 is really mediocre. I keep it around to remind me what mediocre sounds like.
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Didn't really care much for the PX100 - thick underdamped sound, severely rolled off highs, boomy mid bass. I suppose some people may like it in their portable rigs where smooth mids may be preferable to overall balance and resolution but even for that purpose I would have preferred the bass to be little less intrusive. IMO, there is better performance to be had for cheaper , the JBL I mentioned earlier and Sony MDR MA100 come to mind.
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The old PX100 and PX200 II should receive an honourable mention if you ask me.
PX100 surprised me and I kind of agree. Very large sound for something so small and unassuming. Can do late Romantic symphonies, if you don't mind all the extra bass or are outdoors.
PX200 is really mediocre. I keep it around to remind me what mediocre sounds like.
The PX200 II is mediocre as it misses extension in the low and high end. Thing is, it pulls off Jazz, Classical, Metal and Psy-Trance in a compact design that isolates you more than you would ever expect. I consider the PX200 II one of Sennheiser's under-appreciated feats of headphone engineering. The DT1350 did not work completely for me, flawed design features the PX200 II neatly addressed in a fold-able package.
For the design feat of the PX200 II I take my hat off for Sennheiser.
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The PX100 is overrated I think. Ok-ish compared to other headphones of its size maybe, but not a great value, especially after the price almost doubled. I might nominate the UE6000 though, which was an average $200 headphone, but a very very good $80 one now, even if the NC is crap. You can just never use it.
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Mine started having intermittent loud and soft episode in one or both ears after about 3 months, and on inspection, it looks like the strain relief on the TRS jack has given out. That said, it sounded to me remarkable (for its price) while I had it working.
I agree it is on the warm side, but one of the more coherent sounding iems I have heard and a no brainer for $50. I now have the Ostry KC06 to use as my cheap walkabout headset, but I have to say I prefer the sound of the Tenore by an appreciable margin. The Tenores to my ears has much better soundstaging and is one of the easiest iems I have ever fitted and are inherently tunable in the sense that if you prefer a more neutral less bassy sound, you can fit them with shallow ear insertion and when you want the boom boom you can push them in a bit for a deeper insertion and the bass response goes up accordingly without apparently losing its soundstaging or coherence.
They are so comfortable when inserted that even with the purported reliability problems I am seriously considering buying a couple of extras ...
They would be my first choice to recommend to people for their first upgrade, if it were not for the fact that I would be afraid they would become addicted to the sound so they can't go back to their stock buds and then curse me if it fails after a couple of months.
should we drop them? $50, but still shouldn't die that quickly. anyone else have a QC issue?
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Just throwing out an odd-ball here: Every time I pick up the Noontec Zoro HD I'm surprised at how good they sound. Probably need quite a few pirates to have a listen for some consensus, but I think they're very good.
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I really dig jerg-padded HE-500 and Slants... It's the FR I was looking for. Is there anything else PLANAR that I should consider buying (for up to 1000USD), sounding similar tonally-wise?
From what I can come up with, Koss ESP950 looks nice but I don't quite like the lack of deep bass and certain 1khz emphasis (I didn't like that on Audeze LCD-2 rev1 and both pairs from Tyll's measurements have it). HE-560 most probably too bright (impossible to get rid of that upper mid emphasis completely without EQ it seems), HE-400i not as good as jerg-padded HE-500 in terms of FR for me. Audeze are out of question for now (tried LCD-2s twice, the rest is too expensive, also very uncomfortable to wear for me). Stax SR-007 mkI unfortunately too expensive and no warranty/replacable drivers available (AFAIK). I was looking at some old Stax Lambdas as well but I am not sure about (Lambdas in general) in terms of 1-2khz emphasis (I just want my vocals natural, not emphasised) and overall FR (maybe too bright).
... any ideas? I could have missed something, that's why I am asking here :)p1 Thanks in advance, really
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Provided you have an adequate amp -> modded HE-6 trounces the HE-500.
I really did not care much for the HE-6 before I applied the mods (felt mod / "semi-grill" mod (stock grills, no cotton, no cloth) / focus pads / Vanquish cable). I could appreciate their resolving nature and superb texture rendition, but the treble peakyness annoyed me. To the point where I actually preferred listening to my HE-5LE most of the time.
Then came the pre-order HE-560 (with the nice wood cups and Focus-A pads). For the whole "pre-release" time, the HE-6 were sitting in their box and I did not care for them. The 560s were much more enjoyable.
Around the same time, the pre-order HE-560 was replaced with the current version (bye bye wood cups, hello less comfy Focus pads) and my Lavardin amp came back from repair. I don't know what the real cause is, but I don't care for the new HE-560 and really enjoyed the HE-6 off the Lavardin. I think the release HE-560 sounds worse than the pre-order I had (brighter, less full) and the clamping is much stronger than my older pair... Why Hifiman? WHY!? Why did you listen to stupid HF people who complained about pads they never tried in the first place? ... walk the plank2
I guess it does not matter anymore: the modded HE-6 walks all over the 560s with the Ragnarok/Lavardin :)p1.
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HE-6 would require mods to have a similar tone, but more neutral. I don't think it would ever be as warm as HE-500 or Slants.
PM-1 or PM-2 alt pads would have most similar FR to HE-500 and Slants. You may enjoy them quite a bit.
Speaking of Oppo. I nominate PM-2 with alt pads. Anyone here free feel to destroy me with that recommendation.
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I don't think the OPPOs sound good enough to put on the list unless they were dramatically lowered in price. PM-1 is too expensive, and PM-2 is even worse in the treble, IMO (brighter in some spots, but worse overall). Luxurious looks and ability to work from any device still don't sell me on them, especially at $700 for the PM-2.
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Thanks for your responses... The problem with HE-6 is that it is very difficult to drive and maybe too expensive to buy knowing I would have to mod them extensively to achieve a good balance. HE-500s were cheap so it was not a big deal at all - also I knew there is the potential already from Changstar graphs and from several personal auditions.
Well, I dig the HE-500's slightly brighter response more than that of Slants (even though both headphones are very very similar and Slants do quite a few things better). I could maybe try to trade the Slants for the HE-6... But again, I would need to buy a speaker amp as well (btw, we are talking about budget amps... not Ragnarok or other uber expensive choices... therefore not sure whether it's worth it to try the HE-6 with my limited funds). :)p2
Just to add - I am looking for a natural-sounding headphone... Technical quality of performance is not as important. HE-500 and Slants are good enough technically for me but of course, if I could get something even more natural and with better technicalities, why not!
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You should try Ultrasone Edition 10 if you want natural sound.
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I could maybe try to trade the Slants for the HE-6... But again, I would need to buy a speaker amp as well (btw, we are talking about budget amps... not Ragnarok or other uber expensive choices... therefore not sure whether it's worth it to try the HE-6 with my limited funds).
Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't bring that "HE-6 needs a speaker amp" crap here...
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HE-6 needs at least a $130 amp to sound good: Trends Audio TA-10.2 SE
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I could maybe try to trade the Slants for the HE-6... But again, I would need to buy a speaker amp as well (btw, we are talking about budget amps... not Ragnarok or other uber expensive choices... therefore not sure whether it's worth it to try the HE-6 with my limited funds).
Please, for the love of all that is holy, don't bring that "HE-6 needs a speaker amp" crap here...
Sorry, just following the 'consensus'... I asked about budget amps for HE-6 and the original response was: Ragnarok or megabuck hefty Audio-GDs ,-)
Fortunately, CEE TEE came with something that is closer to what I define as a 'budget price range'.
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Definitely look into Project Ember and Polaris too. They are meaty little amps. I've seen a couple reviews from folks with Ember who had no problem powering their K1000's and at least a handful of users loving the pairing with their HE-6. Polaris is just the solidstate counterpart to Ember, I'd like to hear it one day.
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I am really not comfortable with how much Audio GD gets mentioned around this forum. Tempted to make a macro that replaces the usage of "Audio GD" with "M7 (pretty good when it works right)".
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I am really not comfortable with how much Audio GD gets mentioned around this forum. Tempted to make a macro that replaces the usage of "Audio GD" with "M7 (pretty good when it works right)".
The Master-9 is a good headphone amp. The NFB-7 is a good Sabre DAC.
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I am really not comfortable with how much Audio GD gets mentioned around this forum. Tempted to make a macro that replaces the usage of "Audio GD" with "M7 (pretty good when it works right)".
The Master-9 is a good headphone amp. The NFB-7 is a good Sabre DAC.
The NFB-7 I heard was still quite too Sabre-ish for me among other things. Haven't heard the Master 9 but I see mixed comments comparing to the GSX mk2 so not sure what to make of that. No doubt you can't argue the price/BOM ratio. I think Kingwa can make good stuff, just nothing I've heard is anything I'd call reference the way some folk seem to when they name drop them.
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What's the low-cost giant-killer among DACs, then? The Geek out? The Modi?
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Anybody tried the iFi stuff? The iMicro DSD seems to be all the rage these days...
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Can anyone share some thoughts with the different Geek Out units?
I'm currently finding my GO 720 to have a much better DAC section than amp section.
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Anybody tried the iFi stuff? The iMicro DSD seems to be all the rage these days...
burn seems to like it. I tried their stuff at RMAF and thought it was okay, nothing special.
Can anyone share some thoughts with the different Geek Out units?
I'm currently finding my GO 720 to have a much better DAC section than amp section.
That's what I've found too with the 450 and 1000. I've been using the GO exclusively as a DAC.
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Anybody tried the iFi stuff? The iMicro DSD seems to be all the rage these days...
I have an iCAN amp, but not much experience with which to assess it against anything else.
The ifi marketing-hype game at HF made me want to vomit. :vomit:
...there, better out than in, as my old mum used to say. In fact, she said it even when she was quite young.
Seriously, it really put me off. But I hate to think that might stop me buying a decent product at a good price!
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I put Geek by LH in the same category. Every product they make is the best, period. Hmm, ok.
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I put Geek by LH in the same category. Every product they make is the best, period. Hmm, ok.
Probably because Light Harmonic has 2 products released on the market: the Da Vinci and the Geek Out, both of which are excellent DACs at their price point.
With regard to Audio-GD, they're hit or miss. I've spent some time with the NFB-7 and it falls behind the X-Sabre and is priced higher to boot.
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I put Geek by LH in the same category. Every product they make is the best, period. Hmm, ok.
Well, HF get's paid money by sponsors so.....
Moderation invariably shapes narratives on forums just as it does in any form of media. So just look to who controls the message and how.
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Probably because Light Harmonic has 2 products released on the market: the Da Vinci and the Geek Out, both of which are excellent DACs at their price point.
With regard to Audio-GD, they're hit or miss. I've spent some time with the NFB-7 and it falls behind the X-Sabre and is priced higher to boot.
WOW, really? You don`t know their best product?!
http://www.lightharmonic.com/lightspeed.html
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With regard to Audio-GD, they're hit or miss. I've spent some time with the NFB-7 and it falls behind the X-Sabre and is priced higher to boot.
Ouch!
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I put Geek by LH in the same category. Every product they make is the best, period. Hmm, ok.
Probably because Light Harmonic has 2 products released on the market: the Da Vinci and the Geek Out, both of which are excellent DACs at their price point.
With regard to Audio-GD, they're hit or miss. I've spent some time with the NFB-7 and it falls behind the X-Sabre and is priced higher to boot.
Which version? Original or NFB-7.32 / 2014?
From the time I had with the X-Sabre, I would never put it ahead of the NFB-7.32 or NFB-27. No way.
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Which version? Original or NFB-7.32 / 2014?
From the time I had with the X-Sabre, I would never put it ahead of the NFB-7.32 or NFB-27. No way.
The original (this would have been 2012 when I had a lengthy audition I believe). The X-Sabre suffers from trying to not be a SABRE DAC. Some things are smoothed over a little too much.
The NFB had garbage for a USB implementation. The coax was better from the CDP that was plugged in (XA-5400ES), but it still was not as good as the X-Sabre when I bought it it. Both were driving a fully balanced Dynahi and HD800s. The NFB is grainy as hell in the treble and the bass was dull. It's super hard to differentiate pitch in the bass region. Super obvious when listening to the fairfield four on the DAC.
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WOW, really? You don`t know their best product?!
http://www.lightharmonic.com/lightspeed.html
Oh god. I'd heard of it, but never looked before.
:vomit: :vomit: :vomit:
Please, my stomach muscles can't take much more, and I need to keep some food down just to live.
It is this sort of thing that really puts me off a company.
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But this thing actually works :-DD
I bought the Lightspeed "just to try" (had a good deal on it that - for once - would mean I'm not loosing money, "just to try") and I don't feel like I just threw $x00 out the window. It does make a difference, for sure.
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Which version? Original or NFB-7.32 / 2014?
From the time I had with the X-Sabre, I would never put it ahead of the NFB-7.32 or NFB-27. No way.
The original (this would have been 2012 when I had a lengthy audition I believe). The X-Sabre suffers from trying to not be a SABRE DAC. Some things are smoothed over a little too much.
The NFB had garbage for a USB implementation. The coax was better from the CDP that was plugged in (XA-5400ES), but it still was not as good as the X-Sabre when I bought it it. Both were driving a fully balanced Dynahi and HD800s. The NFB is grainy as hell in the treble and the bass was dull. It's super hard to differentiate pitch in the bass region. Super obvious when listening to the fairfield four on the DAC.
Makes sense now. The NFB-7.32 I heard had the OR converter. Sometimes, the OR5 can result in a smoother more liquid nuanced sound.
In any event, it would take a lot of convincing to include a SABRE based DAC here.
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On the AKG note, I was not a big fan. I always remember (off-topic) this mastering engineer from Israel... ::looks up:: Acix, who would always rave about his K701 headphones on HeadFi years ago (When Headfi wasn't as much of rolling toilet paper appreciation threads). I thought his posts were always funny, because this was around when there was a lot less use of frequency response and objective thought (from what I remember). Being an engineer, looking for his own neutrality, he was convinced the K701 was as musical as you would want.
From what I remember, most people treated him like the village idiot.
When I tried the K701, they were terrible - to me. To me, they were in desperate need of a synergistic nurse to give immediate ER - cold.
The moral of my story, I like the K712.
I don't mind sending it in for measurements or review, after I get it back from Tyll.
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On the AKG note, I was not a big fan. I always remember (off-topic) this mastering engineer from Israel... ::looks up:: Acix, who would always rave about his K701 headphones on HeadFi years ago (When Headfi wasn't as much of rolling toilet paper appreciation threads). I thought his posts were always funny, because this was around when there was a lot less use of frequency response and objective thought (from what I remember). Being an engineer, looking for his own neutrality, he was convinced the K701 was as musical as you would want.
From what I remember, most people treated him like the village idiot.
When I tried the K701, they were terrible - to me. To me, they were in desperate need of a synergistic nurse to give immediate ER - cold.
The moral of my story, I like the K712.
I don't mind sending it in for measurements or review, after I get it back from Tyll.
Gave you a +1 because I agree with you... K712 Pro are nice (not great but fine and versatile IMHO). But fully expecting a negative review/impressions here. It seems that everything AKG/Sabre is hated on Changstar.
(and no, I don't think Sabre or AKG is the best in the world... Just not as tragically bad as Changstar makes it to be.)
Btw, yeah, Acix is pretty funny... Bashing HD800 all the time for some pseudo past-10khz peaks while talking about perfect bass of K701 ;)
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Overgeneralizing aren't ya?
Q701 was found to be pretty good / decent here (no measurements). There's some suspicion AKG may have tuned K702 or its variants for a warmer sound.
The three-four AKG K550s were found to have severe inconsistencies. Some being awful. Some being pretty darn good. Tested with certain test tracks with measurements to prove.
Anaxilus amd Ravi are OK with good SABRE implementations (LH Geek Out). Maxvla likes the X-SABRE. I've recommended the SABRE over Gungnir to people who I felt would prefer the X-SABRE. I think the Vega is pretty good. Luis hates it.
Of everyonehere, I tend to hate SABRE the most. The reason I do this is because I think it would be nice if there were more companies like Schiit. Metrum, AGD, etc. that would make DACs that had some of the nice attributes of the DACs of the Golden Age of DACs in the 90s. Variety in sound, whether you like the vintage R2R DAC sound or not would be a good thing.
Think about it. What choice do most people have among the craptastic cheap and expensive DACs being shilled on HF?
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Measurements of the K712 that I've seen make me think it still has that 2KHz or so bump I heard on the K702 65th AE. Dunno, K702 just sounded a bit painful to my ears, and as I believe Marv said, a bit "low-fi" at higher volumes. I just didn't really see it as all that competitive against the HD600/650. (Yeah, I know, can't always go off measurements, so maybe my K712 assumptions are wrong.)
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Overgeneralizing aren't ya?
Q701 was found to be pretty good / decent here (no measurements). There's some suspicion AKG may have tuned K702 or its variants for a warmer sound.
The three-four AKG K550s were found to have severe inconsistencies. Some being awful. Some being pretty darn good. Tested with certain test tracks with measurements to prove.
Anaxilus amd Ravi are OK with good implementations (LH Geek Out). Maxvla likes the X-SABRE. I've recommended the SABRE over Gungnir to people who I felt would prefer the X-SABRE.
Of everything here, I tend to hate SABRE the most. The reason I do this is because I think it would be nice if there were more companies like Schiit. Metrum, AGD, etc. that would make DACs that had some of the nice attributes of the DACs of the Golden Age of DACs in the 90s. Variety in sound, whether you like the vintage R2R DAC would be a good thing.
Possibly overgeneralizing... It's like you see several posts with the same content and it gets into your head. Like 'Schiit is great', 'Audio-GD is mostly average or even worse'... Everytime I see 'Sabre type of sound' mentioned here it also does not seem to be meant in a good way. etc. Maybe it's my perception of discussions here that should be blamed, dunno.
That said, it's funny how different opinions can be across various boards... I know some places were opinions about Schiit, Audio-GD, AKG or Sabre are wildly different from what I read here, mostly to be found in Europe.
To hans: You seem to be pretty fond of HD600/HD650 so I doubt you could find K712 Pro superior... But I personally do. I do not like Q701, DT880, Shure 1840, HD600/HD650 (etc etc) much (all of them just fail to do it for me) but I do like K712 Pro. Not more than HE-500/LCD-2/HE-4 but still I do. The 2khz peak is still there but quite masked by the increased bass volume (or should I say decreased upper mid to low treble response?). Vocals are still somewhat shouty but there is no spiky nature to the sound, at least in my experience. But then, you find HD650 superior to HE-500 which I do not at all.
Btw, very important note - I don't listen to music loud. I listen rather quiet... I have heard electrostats that sounded well with very high volumes but I don't want to listen that loud. I would say that people generally tend to listen 10-15db higher than I do (at least from experience from several auditions at my home).
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Interesting. Could be wrong, but I thought the Q701 and the K712 where virtually the same headphone.
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Interesting. Could be wrong, but I thought the Q701 and the K712 where virtually the same headphone.
No, they are not... But it's also not that you'll get a completely different headphone. Check Tyll's graphs.
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Not seeing the big difference there (perhaps some product variation or small change the enclosure?):
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGQuincyJonesQ701.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AKGK712.pdf
Similar impedance plot, sensitivity. Tyll says it might be a little warmer.
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/innerfidelity-november-2013-update
Again, not seeing nite and day difference there.
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Interesting. Could be wrong, but I thought the Q701 and the K712 where virtually the same headphone.
K712 is virtually the same as K702 anniversary. Those two are tuned warmer than the Q701.
K702 and K701 are virtually the same. Less full than Q701 (which is not really full to start with).
Then comes inconsistencies between samples of the same model...
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Nope. We are definitely not Europe. Not USA either. (HF is very much USA). Not Computer Audiophile. Not Hydrogen Audio.
Take the pirate theme seriously. It was purposefully chosen. From how we think, what we care about, who we are, how we govern ourselves. Yes, there is sort of a pirate "democracy" here. People on CS are from all over the world. USA, Mexico, Vietnam, Guatamela, India, Taiwan, Hong Kong, France, Austria, Philippines, Russian. I'm naming people off the top of my head who I interact the most with here. How this site works is very much influenced by these people.
--
This goes for everyone new. READ CAREFULLY AND UNDERSTAND CONTEXT. Calibrate to your own experiences and take away what you can from it. Or take away nothing and go back to HF.
Examples: someone says "Audio-GD is mostly average or even worse", but yet AGD-M7 DAC is in Leaderboard. And then there's the comparison of X-SABRE vs. NFB-7.32 where opinions are different. I chime in that in one instance, I thought the NFB-7.32 was better because of the USB-SPDIF converter I was using. You are not going to get those little kinds of nuanced discussions bridging "differences" anywhere else.
It's not we dislike A or B. Or C is the bestest. It's more like we dislike or like A because of reasons X, Y, and Z. People who want to be spoon-fed or want to see things in absolutes should go back to HF. For example, the sonic reasons on why I personally dislike most SABRE DACs I've heard are well known and documented. I don't dislike SABRE because its SABRE.
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If the 712 is pretty much the same as the 702 65th AE, no thanks. Had some good characteristics, but high-mid/low-treble bump hurt me ears, and, again, didn't do well at high volumes. Perhaps mods could fix it right up, as I heard promising areas otherwise, but I've been so, so much more satisfied with the HD600/650.
(Keep in mind I found the PM-2 annoying due to rough treble even though it was relatively recessed and somewhat masked by that. This stuff sticks out to me like a sore thumb. Also why I had to mod the HD600 to listen for more than an hour - but it still was less painful than the 702 AE by far.)
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Biggest improvement with the K712 over the regular K70x was getting rid of the horrible bumps in the headband. That said, I wasn't a huge fan of either and would gladly take either the DT880 or HD600 over them.
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If the 712 is pretty much the same as the 702 65th AE, no thanks. Had some good characteristics, but high-mid/low-treble bump hurt me ears, and, again, didn't do well at high volumes. Perhaps mods could fix it right up, as I heard promising areas otherwise, but I've been so, so much more satisfied with the HD600/650.
(Keep in mind I found the PM-2 annoying due to rough treble even though it was relatively recessed and somewhat masked by that. This stuff sticks out to me like a sore thumb. Also why I had to mod the HD600 to listen for more than an hour - but it still was less painful than the 702 AE by far.)
I can see how K712 Pro could irritate you if you tend to listen high... HD600/HD650 are smoother.
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New nomination: Beyer DT880 600 ohm.
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New nomination: Beyer DT880 600 ohm.
As much as I don't like HD600/HD650, DT880 are even worse... so please don't! :)p13
I nominate: Shure 1440 8)
(http://jyxo.info/uploads/69/69ef17a140d74d2374a68bd1ee3efac91cc77e65.jpg)
They sound even worse than measure, I can tell you that...
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New nomination: Beyer DT880 600 ohm.
Yes, I second this.
New nomination: Beyer DT880 600 ohm.
As much as I don't like HD600/HD650, DT880 are even worse... so please don't! :)p13
I nominate: Shure 1440 8)
(http://jyxo.info/uploads/69/69ef17a140d74d2374a68bd1ee3efac91cc77e65.jpg)
It sounds even worse than it measures, I can tell you that...
If that headphone makes it onto our Leaderboard I request to be walk the plank2 and I'll swim back to Head-Fi. Just no.
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OK. Yeah, possible the Shure 1440 sucks more than the Q701 and all of it's re-incarnations. But the Q701 + undead versions, are still no go in my book. That includes the possibly under-awesome K712 based on the "sight" differences I'm seeing in the measurements and on what I heard form the Q/K701/2...
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but look at dat flat treble i meen hp measure so flat, make it good! the red and blue lines excite me regardless
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Is there anyone who HONESTLY thinks Shure 1440 is a good-sounding headphone? Would really like to know if there is anyone on Changstar...
I can imagine someone loving HD650... Even DT880... Even T90.... But 1440 just sounds absolutely horrible.
ultrabike: Q701 are golden headphones in comparison to 1440, really... 1440 just sounds so unbelievably unrealistic. Even worse than measures, trust me.
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Maybe some think the Shure 1440 is awesome, and won't get shit about it, unless he/she makes it his/her objective in life to convince everyone about it's awesomeness...
Won't likely make it to the Leaderboard simply cuz most folks don't think it's amazoballz. But people are allowed to have their own opinion and preferences.
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New nomination: Beyer DT880 600 ohm.
Haven't had a chance to jam to the 600 ohm but the DT880 is really a great headphone for the price either way. Though I was listening to the 2003 version...
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I nominate: Shure 1440 8)
Yeah, no Shure 1440 or 1840 will EVER be posted here. Worst distortion I've ever heard in a headphone (except maybe the weird distortion spike in the mids of the HE400). You have to listen at 30dB or less to remotely find them listenable.
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I like to think that most pirates want their playback equipment to be reasonably uncolored. I think we all would rather listen to the music rather than the headphone. If we operate on that premise, none of the AKG 7xx or its derivatives would be eligible for the list. They simply have an obvious upper-mids plasticky coloration that imparts itself onto every recording you put through it. You might be able to argue that the HD600's muddy bass coloration is more bothersome (although, as others have mentioned, AKG bass is pretty much shit at high volumes). Other than that, there's no good reason to put everything someone mentions up on our list. We should have a reasonable consensus on everything that gets pirate approval. I'd rather not our Leaderboard end up like this:
http://www.head-fi.org/a/head-fi-buying-guide-introduction
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Are the V-moda M-80s really about $90 now?
adding DT880.
Wanting to debate AGD M7.. not sure if it should be on the Leaderboard, but wanted it add it. maybe I will remove it if something better comes along?
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But according to some on head-fi those open-backed Shures are more detailed than HD800! Shure 1440 = sure wall-of-famer.
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I nominate: Shure 1440 8)
Yeah, no Shure 1440 or 1840 will EVER be posted here. Worst distortion I've ever heard in a headphone (except maybe the weird distortion spike in the mids of the HE400). You have to listen at 30dB or less to remotely find them listenable.
LOL, this is where we both agree... I dont like 1440, 1840, AD900 and AD1000 at all but still, if I had to choose the worst one from those four, 1440 is it - no contest here.
But of course, if someone likes 1440, no problem with that...
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Anyone have some DAP suggestions for the leaderboard? I need to get one soon...
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Anyone have some DAP suggestions for the leaderboard? I need to get one soon...
Sansa Clip+ or Geek Wave (based on early prototype listening) would be my top choices.
Not a DAP, but Schiit has a portable amp/DAC coming out but I have no idea what it will play with or how it sounds. So far Dell Venue 8 Pro running JRiver > Geek Out 450 > Leckerton UHA6S (4627-b) but I'd be hard pressed to call that a DAP.
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I second the dt880 600 ohm too. I liked it better than the hd650 esp. out of a tube amp to cure its lean signature. Although, eventually I preferred a hd580 to either of them.
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Total +1 on the DT880/600. Can't believe I haven't listened to mine in such a long time. Too bad the pricing looks like a sine wave impulse measurement: https://thetracktor.com/detail/B0024NK35S/
Not bad at $350, but even better when they dip below $300 (or better on Massdrop).
(Ah... just noticed the 'add'. headbang)
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Interesting. Could be wrong, but I thought the Q701 and the K712 where virtually the same headphone.
K712 is virtually the same as K702 anniversary. Those two are tuned warmer than the Q701.
K702 and K701 are virtually the same. Less full than Q701 (which is not really full to start with).
Then comes inconsistencies between samples of the same model...
I compared K702 and K712 recently. K712 retains the K702's resolution and crisp treble but with a very obvious boost on the low end.
My understanding is that the only difference between K702 and the annie is the flat memory foam pads which warm up the sound a little, but that the K712 driver is tuned different and uses angled memory foam pads.
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Nominate:
Crack + speedball (for raising general awareness of how good tubes can sound.
BHA-1 = decent balanced solid-state amp clean sound and decent headstage depth and imaging stability.
Feel free to nix them.
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Crack speedball yes.
Bryston BHA-1? Potential thermal drift and for the money just get a Ragnarok which crushes all things SS. If you can buy one new for 3 figures then I say we revisit.
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i heard gsx2 is not good with hd800, but how about everything else? it seems well respected.
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Yes to Crack + Speedball. Great amp and fun DIY for a good price.
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Crack + Speedball might be contingent on certain other upgrades (coupling caps, bypass caps, attenuators, etc) but yes it deserves to be mentioned as well.
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I feel that's the beauty of it. The upgrades, tweaking, learning, etc. While surpassed in some ways by commercial solutions, Doc Bottlehead deserves mention.
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Any good solid-state amps?
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Master-9 :)p8
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Master-9 :)p8
So what's the Master 9 beat and what's it close to or not as good as?
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New nomination: Beyer DT880 600 ohm.
No. Unless they sound significantly better than the lower ohm versions. The lower versions don't sound bad, but they don't sound better than HD600s.
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Any good solid-state amps?
Outside DIY stuff? I like the Asgard 2. I'm hard pressed to think of other stuff that's not too expensive.
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New nomination: Beyer DT880 600 ohm.
No. Unless they sound significantly better than the lower ohm versions. The lower versions don't sound bad, but they don't sound better than HD600s.
I need to do a listening comparo someday between the versions. Always seems to be a question that was never really resolved. I think Tyll did talk about it a bit, it's been a long time ago so the mind is fuzzy on the details of such an article if it exists. The question is, how consistent are the Beyer drivers going to be. Would have to measure all 3 sets first to make sure if it's even worth pursuing.
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Nominate:
BHA-1 = decent balanced solid-state amp clean sound and decent headstage depth and imaging stability.
Feel free to nix them.
Overpriced for the performance and there are more options in that range than there were when this came out a couple years ago.
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Nominate:
BHA-1 = decent balanced solid-state amp clean sound and decent headstage depth and imaging stability.
Feel free to nix them.
Overpriced for the performance and there are more options in that range than there were when this came out a couple years ago.
Yeah, you were one of the first to buy one and had it for awhile right?
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Yeah I owned the very first one. Had it for about a year and a half.
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Master-9 :)p8
So what's the Master 9 beat and what's it close to or not as good as?
In the grand scheme of things, it would compare to the Rag. They have a different sound however.
The Rag has deeper / taller (bigger overall) sound-stage with more texture (almost "smoky" kind of sound). It is smoother, too.
The Master-9 is more on the super clean / transparent side, but not harshness. Very refined all across, too, but does not have the apparent smoothness of the Rag (from the amps I heard, only the Stratus had that apparent smoothness on first listen). Tighter and more impactful mid-bass.
Does not suck me in the music as much as the Rag, though. Did not try ACSS with the Master-7, yet.
A direct competitor would be the Taurus mkII -> I really did not care much for its sound at the last meet. Could be bad condition (LCD-2 felt so congested...) but I did not bother plug in my HE-6 that I had with me at the table... Not an inspiring first listen.
You guys have much more experience with tube gear than I do (I digged your amp and the Liquid Glass with HD-800 but was more focused on enjoying the sound than critically listening to the gear, ha!).
Feel free to borrow the M9 before I sell it to make your own opinion!
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Any good solid-state amps?
Master 9
ECP Black Diamond? (Just throwing this out there, I haven't heard it)
For portable:
Triad L3 - Still the best "portable" amp I've heard especially with an external PSU.
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Master-9 :)p8
So what's the Master 9 beat and what's it close to or not as good as?
In the grand scheme of things, it would compare to the Rag. They have a different sound however.
The Rag has deeper / taller (bigger overall) sound-stage with more texture (almost "smoky" kind of sound). It is smoother, too.
The Master-9 is more on the super clean / transparent side, but not harshness. Very refined all across, too, but does not have the apparent smoothness of the Rag (from the amps I heard, only the Stratus had that apparent smoothness on first listen). Tighter and more impactful mid-bass.
Does not suck me in the music as much as the Rag, though. Did not try ACSS with the Master-7, yet.
A direct competitor would be the Taurus mkII -> I really did not care much for its sound at the last meet. Could be bad condition (LCD-2 felt so congested...) but I did not bother plug in my HE-6 that I had with me at the table... Not an inspiring first listen.
You guys have much more experience with tube gear than I do (I digged your amp and the Liquid Glass with HD-800 but was more focused on enjoying the sound than critically listening to the gear, ha!).
Feel free to borrow the M9 before I sell it to make your own opinion!
Thx. If you are cool with that, I can see about doing a Rag/M9 comparo. I'll be surprised to hear it be more transparent than the Rag but willing to be surprised in that regard for sure!
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For portable:
Triad L3 - Still the best "portable" amp I've heard especially with an external PSU.
It is isn't it? I'v been waiting for years for something to surpass it but nothing has. Maybe I should just suck it up. Does the PSU take batteries?
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Yup, I think they recently upgraded from NIMH to Li-Ion. I also heard it with a Firestone PSU which was a step up but not as good.
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I've been thinking forever about picking one up. I want to use the Geek Out SE with UERM, HD800, and Paradox Slant transportably, but all I've come up with it the leck for the UERM and sometimes the Pico Power for the other two.
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Total +1 on the DT880/600. Can't believe I haven't listened to mine in such a long time. Too bad the pricing looks like a sine wave impulse measurement: https://thetracktor.com/detail/B0024NK35S/
Not bad at $350, but even better when they dip below $300 (or better on Massdrop).
(Ah... just noticed the 'add'. headbang)
Used prices used to hover around $200 a while ago. I've gone through many iterations of the DTxx0 family, and if I had to pick one it would be the DT880/600 (if I get to pick an amp: Bottlehead Crack + Speedball).
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You have to listen at 30dB or less to remotely find them listenable.
You have to be deaf to find a shure1840 listenable. Just awful. Oddly I 've some friend who said that shure reminds us the HD800. I've never trusted one more words from them. Jeez...
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Any good solid-state amps?
No love for Jan Meier's amps there ? I had a Meier Corda Jazz during 5 month before going the tube route last year. Crossfeed feature and quite powerful if there's no HE-6 or K1000 in the neighbourhood. I still miss it . not cheap, not expensive : 385$ shipped in th US. If my best friend would ask me for an affordable and versatile but solid amp, tje Corda Jazz would be my first advice. Not heard something like a Lake people G103 though. I'll grab one next month.
Trusted ears gave me very good impressions about Jan's DAC too : the Corda Daccord. not tried myself yet
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Any good solid-state amps?
No love for Jan Meier's amps there ? I had a Meier Corda Jazz during 5 month before going the tube route last year. Crossfeed feature and quite powerful if there's no HE-6 or K1000 in the neighbourhood. I still miss it . not cheap, not expensive : 385$ shipped in th US. If my best friend would ask me for an affordable and versatile but solid amp, tje Corda Jazz would be my first advice. Not heard something like a Lake people G103 though. I'll grab one next month.
Trusted ears gave me very good impressions about Jan's DAC too : the Corda Daccord. not tried myself yet
IME, Jan's amps are alright but tend to sound quite SS, perhaps on the analytical edge of things. No idea about Lake People but if they are or are like Violectric, meh, it's okay.
If I had to vote for an okay sounding SS amp I'd go for the Phonitor 2 as it also has niche functionality and is a noticeable improvement over the 1. Still, it's sonics are not up with the best at the pricepoint but it's fine.
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IME, Jan's amps are alright but tend to sound quite SS, perhaps on the analytical edge of things. No idea about Lake People but if they are or are like Violectric, meh, it's okay.
Yup , definitely SS sound . from memory , i liked the Jazz more than the Concerto who had more of this analitytical SS sound IME . Last Jan's amps seemed to gain some smoothness and warmth. I should buy another Jazz to ses if my old impressions are still the same.
LP G103 is priced at a bit more than 200€ here. same price than a Matrix M-stage. Not the last word in terms of amp but a valuable entry point in the game from what I know. Never tried yet so even its a well regarded amp by trusted ears here in France I can't propose it for the leaderboard
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Amps: AGD, some awesome amps, and a lot of meh ones, lineup is inconsistent and its hard to pick a good one among what they have save for the master series, or else I reckon some would make it to the value list. For SS I requested some value ones but I realise that it is hard especially since all the great ones are DIY in nature. ECP is unique, would love to see them on the list.
BH Crack, honorable mention but not leaderboard quality to me, does very well at its strengths but meh extension is pretty distracting to me, the Valhalla 2 smashes it hands down for me.
Digital value: I would love to check out the pupdac with isolation/Wyrd based on Tomb's measurements. CD sample rates only but hey, who really needs more? Would love to recommend Stoner Acoustics for the list based on consistency of sound and rather pleasing as well but their lineup has expended to the UD120 which I really want to check out. Maybe one day the Fulla will get there too.
Portable: You guys may want to make me walk the plank but I would recommend the E12DIY, they recently released the E12(A) as well. I find that when Fiio removed the crossfeed+BB circuits, the amp sounds pretty damnnn good. I have not heard the UHA6SMKII but I'm confident that it smashes stuff around its price point and maybe gets really close to the Leckerton too. The advantage that the Leckerton has is modern opamps and an inbuilt dac but that cost 70 bucks more for a DAC I would rarely use.
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No DAPs on the list?!?
:P
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Had a Corda Rock a while back. Very good size, sounded transparent enough (i guess?) and never got too warm to touch. But it just sounded kind of sterile.
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Interesting. Could be wrong, but I thought the Q701 and the K712 where virtually the same headphone.
K712 is virtually the same as K702 anniversary. Those two are tuned warmer than the Q701.
K702 and K701 are virtually the same. Less full than Q701 (which is not really full to start with).
Then comes inconsistencies between samples of the same model...
I compared K702 and K712 recently. K712 retains the K702's resolution and crisp treble but with a very obvious boost on the low end.
My understanding is that the only difference between K702 and the annie is the flat memory foam pads which warm up the sound a little, but that the K712 driver is tuned different and uses angled memory foam pads.
Can you (or anyone else for that matter) comment on the difference in bass between the K712 and the HD600 or HD650. If the bass is equal in quantity/quality to the Senns then I would probably prefer the K712 as I do prefer the soundstage of the Q701 to that of the HD600/650, although I recognize that is not necessarily a typical preference with many finding the soundstage unnaturally wide on the AKG. But I like it that way.
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The AKG K702/65 (apparently cloned into the K712) has almost no bass presence compared to the 600/650.
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No DAPs on the list?!?
:P
DAPs are in a pretty sad state right now. Haven't been impressed with much.. but a few that I feel are decent:
Sony ZX1 (Used) - Prices are as low as $400 now.. which I feel is a pretty good deal. Solid G/UI, build, and sound. Plenty of storage and small enough to carry around with a pair of IEMs or portable headphones.
HFM HM-901 - Conditional with use of the balanced or IEM amp module. Stock and minibox are pretty crap. It looks horrible and the UI was sluggish and archaic but sound is probably the best I've heard from a stand-alone DAP. Not the best value at $800-1000 but for some this might be all they need.
FiiO X5 - Conditional on use with a good external amp. This is my rig right now and it ain't too shabby with the Leck. Line out is decently clean. Build quality is good, UI is okay and decently snappy, and sound is pleasantly warm. Plenty of potential storage to boot. Far from reference quality but good for the $150 I paid for the thing. Used prices are slowly creeping down.
Of those, I don't think any are good enough to be on the leaderboard expect for maybe the Sony ZX1. I fully expect the Geek Wave to be worthy though.
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Is there a timetable until the Geek Wave becomes an actual thing?
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Is there a timetable until the Geek Wave becomes an actual thing?
Nothing official I don't think. Apparently they will have the prototype of the analog section at RMAF.
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Speaking of Oppo. I nominate PM-2 with alt pads. Anyone here free feel to destroy me with that recommendation.
I still get confused by this. By "PM-2 with alt pads" do you mean the PM-2 but with the PM-1 alt pads (leather) that were supposed to be tuned to sound like the PM-2 with stock pads, but which apparently sound better on the PM-2 than said PM-2 stock pads.
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Yes. Something like that.
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DAPs are in a pretty sad state right now. Haven't been impressed with much.. but a few that I feel are decent:
Sony ZX1 (Used) - Prices are as low as $400 now.. which I feel is a pretty good deal. Solid G/UI, build, and sound. Plenty of storage and small enough to carry around with a pair of IEMs or portable headphones.
HFM HM-901 - Conditional with use of the balanced or IEM amp module. Stock and minibox are pretty crap. It looks horrible and the UI was sluggish and archaic but sound is probably the best I've heard from a stand-alone DAP. Not the best value at $800-1000 but for some this might be all they need.
FiiO X5 - Conditional on use with a good external amp. This is my rig right now and it ain't too shabby with the Leck. Line out is decently clean. Build quality is good, UI is okay and decently snappy, and sound is pleasantly warm. Plenty of potential storage to boot. Far from reference quality but good for the $150 I paid for the thing. Used prices are slowly creeping down.
Of those, I don't think any are good enough to be on the leaderboard expect for maybe the Sony ZX1. I fully expect the Geek Wave to be worthy though.
I would second ZX1. Mainly for portability, simplicity, and decent UI.
Heard HFM HM-901 (no balanced sheshal modules) and ... Well let's say it annoys me when an expensive product comes gimped and requires upgrades to be good.
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Yup , definitely SS sound . from memory , i liked the Jazz more than the Concerto who had more of this analitytical SS sound IME . Last Jan's amps seemed to gain some smoothness and warmth. I should buy another Jazz to ses if my old impressions are still the same.
I liked the Concerto when I heard it years ago. Maybe on the more SS lean sterile side, but I didn't feel it sounded nasty or outright horrible. It's funny. We used to hear so much more about this brand 6-7 years ago and then suddenly no mention. What happened? Was there shilling or did Jan Meier not pay Jude?
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DAPs are in a pretty sad state right now. Haven't been impressed with much.. but a few that I feel are decent:
Of those, I don't think any are good enough to be on the leaderboard expect for maybe the Sony ZX1. I fully expect the Geek Wave to be worthy though.
What are the thoughts of people here about the Ipod Touch?
I`ll probably get one in the future, just to use with my IEMs, mostly because of the simple UI and Spotify.
What happened? Was there shilling or did Jan Meier not pay Jude?
Speaking about Jude, where`s that mug picture which you posted yesterday ? popcorn
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Jan really doesn't make nasty sounding stuff IME.
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Jan had a good sale last year end, lots of amps dropped significantly in price. That was a good time to pick up the stuff. Plus I've found the good doctor very communicative by email, and quite helpful (repaired a faulty Rock for free!)
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any recommendations for a portable closed headphone here? Something like the NAD HP50. B&W P7, VMODA XS, AKG K545, etc...?
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Thinksound on-1 perhaps ?
I still like my (EQ'ed) DT1350 but this one is not suited as pirate booty I reckon.
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Hooray for FSP for boldly being a design that stays on my head! I absolutely love the clamp. I also tend to move sometimes when listening to music.
Got a crack in them as well though :(
A mention for K701 against the hate. Headphones are inexcusably expensive these days and the K701 can be had for 180eur new in Europe. Even though they miss the FR sweet spot, they do many things great for that price.
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We need to get more pirates listening to G1217 amps!
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No DAPs on the list?!?
:P
DAPs are in a pretty sad state right now. Haven't been impressed with much.. but a few that I feel are decent:
Sony ZX1 (Used) - Prices are as low as $400 now.. which I feel is a pretty good deal. Solid G/UI, build, and sound. Plenty of storage and small enough to carry around with a pair of IEMs or portable headphones.
HFM HM-901 - Conditional with use of the balanced or IEM amp module. Stock and minibox are pretty crap. It looks horrible and the UI was sluggish and archaic but sound is probably the best I've heard from a stand-alone DAP. Not the best value at $800-1000 but for some this might be all they need.
FiiO X5 - Conditional on use with a good external amp. This is my rig right now and it ain't too shabby with the Leck. Line out is decently clean. Build quality is good, UI is okay and decently snappy, and sound is pleasantly warm. Plenty of potential storage to boot. Far from reference quality but good for the $150 I paid for the thing. Used prices are slowly creeping down.
Of those, I don't think any are good enough to be on the leaderboard expect for maybe the Sony ZX1. I fully expect the Geek Wave to be worthy though.
I was definitely interested in the ZX1 and thought it was an almost perfect player but lack of microSD storage option gets to me! :( I see that they released a new 64gb player with support for microSD (a first I think from them!! NWZ-A17). Keeping a close eye on those... Right now I'm rocking an AK100 MK2 I bought used, it's Ok, a few bugs but works for me and battery life (which is another think I look for in a player) is quite good. Had an X5 for a week+ or so as part of FiiO tour and I definitely liked it but bugs, incomplete features, etc... meh!
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Thinksound on-1 perhaps ?
I still like my (EQ'ed) DT1350 but this one is not suited as pirate booty I reckon.
I've heard good 1350s and bad 1350s. I do like the good 1350s.
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- The good DT1350s are better than the V-Moda M-80. The street price and consistency of the V-Moda makes it more compelling.
- NAD HP50 is not leaderboard stuff.
- The arguments for K701 are compelling. The question is, will some random person like my wife like it?
Discuss...
Curious about the Meier. Let me know if you guys see one pop up for sale cheap or want to talk Jan into sending one to us. Looks like the current one is the Corda Classic? I'd probably throw Concerto up there, but it's no longer in production.
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Does any random person like a headphone with a considerable lack of bass presence?
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If we do the K701, a key point would be being able to get it around or under $200. This is a one time flagship and the HD600/650 never gets that cheap. However, listing the K701 also means we need to talk about the Q702, and 712, etc, etc.
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- The good DT1350s are better than the V-Moda M-80. The street price and consistency of the V-Moda makes it more compelling.
- NAD HP50 is not leaderboard stuff.
- The arguments for K701 are compelling. The question is, will some random person like my wife like it?
Discuss...
Curious about the Meier. Let me know if you guys see one pop up for sale cheap or want to talk Jan into sending one to us. Looks like the current one is the Corda Classic? I'd probably throw Concerto up there, but it's no longer in production.
I got a Concerto in the house, but sending it out the west coast from Canada might be a bit prohibitive.
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Does any random person like a headphone with a considerable lack of bass presence?
Are you serious? There are threads full of them.
Beyer DT48
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT48.pdf
Shure 1440
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/ShureSRH1440.pdf
Stax Sigma
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/StaxSRSigma07381.pdf
Sony SA3000
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SonyMDRSA3000.pdf
Audio Technica AD2000 is basslight to me
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudioTechnicaATHAD2000X.pdf
I also feel certain electrostats and some planars that measure ruler flat bass lack proper bass presence possibly due to lack of mass and/or excursion. They have their fans too.
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I guess I tend to run into 'random' folks that are comparing headphones to their wonderful experience with Beats at Best Buy.
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I might take an AD900 over a K701. They both hang around $200. But I guess I'm an AKG hater so whatev
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Yeah OJ, as a HD-600 lover, you have 0 credibility talking about AKG. You chose your camp and cannot part with it now :wheel:
:)p8
While I liked the K-701 (my first mid-tier headphone - that I got for 150eur, pretty cheap), if I had to start over again, I'd definitely go the HD-6x0 + vali route.
I would be a very different person, though. Liking Audeze and all ::)
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I tried the K702 65th AE before the HD600 or HD650. Long before. I just didn't find it to be a very competitive headphone and would even take the HD558 over it easily. Even if I could get one of those AKGs for $100, I'd still pay the extra $200 and just go with the HD600/650.
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Where's the beating dead horse emote when you need it?
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I tried the K702 65th AE before the HD600 or HD650. Long before. I just didn't find it to be a very competitive headphone and would even take the HD558 over it easily.
That seems a bit much. I've been a fan of the 558/598 but no way would I ever consider that driver more capable or equal to the 70x series. Sounds like you had FR issues with lack of bass or maybe that upper mid timbre. Personally I've never had bass issues with the 70x like some others have though I've never tried one from my phone either.
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Dropping K701 for leaderboard consideration.
K550? Used for $99 at Amazon. Now that scares me is the ones going for $99 are the nasty sounding ones.
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If we're still looking for a cheap ~$100 closed monitor headphone...how bout the Shure 440? Tascam TH02 deserves some consideration as well.
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+1 for TH-02
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How about including a modding section and put the CT-H02/TH-02 plus the T50RP in it?, T50RP's value once properly modded is hard to beat.
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hey how about akg k240 studios for 70 bucks... Those seem pretty worthy for what they do.
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The Tascams did sound rather rough to me, but my experience with $20 headphones is pretty limited.
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I tried the K702 65th AE before the HD600 or HD650. Long before. I just didn't find it to be a very competitive headphone and would even take the HD558 over it easily.
That seems a bit much. I've been a fan of the 558/598 but no way would I ever consider that driver more capable or equal to the 70x series. Sounds like you had FR issues with lack of bass or maybe that upper mid timbre. Personally I've never had bass issues with the 70x like some others have though I've never tried one from my phone either.
Bass was fine on the K702. Mostly came down to the upper mids. Treble was sometimes a bit odd beyond that as well, but nothing too bad. I dunno, maybe the AKG driver has more potential, but both the HD5x8 and K7xx seem to have slightly high harmonic distortion, especially at high volumes (not sure which sounds worse loud), and the HD5x8 had an arguably more balanced response. I can see why some would disagree with me, but I just can't get behind those AKGs.
I would nominate the TH02 but would have to have more experience with more $20-35 headphones to say one way or the other. They all seem to do something not quite right.
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I hated my k701s as well. It was bright yet dry and rolled off without air on top. weird. Too much energy around 7khz or so plus it also had an upper mids peak that bothered me more than Grados.
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for the 20 dollar bracket, what about those monoprice 8323s that were praised by Tyll and Steve Guttenberg. They look like they measure pretty good for that price as well. I havent tried them myself though so I cant comment more than that.
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Personally, if we are trying to get a best-bang-for-the-buck leaderboard, the TH-02 is a no-brainer. Some people aren't willing to dish out more than $50 for headphones if they aren't Bose, but we should give them a reason to. I like c61746961's idea for having a modded headphone section but for $15.99 with Amazon Prime? Shit, it doesn't even need to be modded to recommend to the frugal types out there. But for those that want to finally get their hands wet with modding, what do you have to lose? Remove that stupid cable, add a removable jack. Throw in some foam and dynamat. Get some HM5 pads if you don't like the supra-aural fit.
You can barely get two Chipotle burritos for $15.99.
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TH02 improves with mods, but unmodded for $15 is still good.
"Rough" sound is relative of course; the TH02 have a rough treble but great bass and mids. Fairly hi-fi sounding until you get to the treble.
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As no closed models have made the list besides Paradox, I'll renominate clones of Yoga CD880. ZMF Vibro is worth investigating too.
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TH02 improves with mods, but unmodded for $15 is still good.
"Rough" sound is relative of course; the TH02 have a rough treble but great bass and mids. Fairly hi-fi sounding until you get to the treble.
I dunno, thought they were overall rougher/grainier than the Oppo PM1. Maybe on par with the 558, but not mid-top tier from what little I heard.
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I'll renominate clones of Yoga CD990.
I'll reask, where can you buy them?
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NVX XPT100 goes for about $100 online (Incl. Amazon).
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NVX XPT100
Sweet. Looks like they have the Brainwavz HM5 still too. They have my vote!
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I thought the HM5 sounded pretty weird. Assuming that applies to the FA-003, NVX, Jaycar...all the copies.
Holy crap, you can get the TH02 for $16 now? Yeah, I could get behind adding those to the list. Monoprice 8323 isn't bad too, but I don't remember it well enough. My initial mods on it weren't so great (one of those things where you keep tweaking it over and over and start to adapt to a weird sound - bad call).
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Sweet. Looks like they have the Brainwavz HM5 still too. They have my vote!
I misunderstood your question. I have XPT100: it's the same thing but cheaper and it looks nicer--all black.
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- The good DT1350s are better than the V-Moda M-80. The street price and consistency of the V-Moda makes it more compelling.
- NAD HP50 is not leaderboard stuff.
- The arguments for K701 are compelling. The question is, will some random person like my wife like it?
Discuss...
Curious about the Meier. Let me know if you guys see one pop up for sale cheap or want to talk Jan into sending one to us. Looks like the current one is the Corda Classic? I'd probably throw Concerto up there, but it's no longer in production.
I found this one. http://www.head-fi.org/t/692812/meier-concerto-silver-excellent-like-new-condition#post_10949501
But the guy hasn't been on since 3/21/14
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Cheap headphones ... no superlux love here? :)p6
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the superluxes Ive tried were always too bright for me.
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Definitely a lack of closed cans on here. Few that may meet the criteria:
ATH-M50X
Brainwavz HM5
UE6000
AKG K550 - Conditional on getting a good set... no nastiness
All of these used around $100 or less.
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The UE you can get new for $80. They are discontinued so I don't know how long that'll last, but they are a very solid $80 headphone. Just don't except to use the NC, total crap.
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The UE you can get new for $80. They are discontinued so I don't know how long that'll last, but they are a very solid $80 headphone. Just don't except to use the NC, total crap.
Yup.. this was a good deal: https://www.tanga.com/deals/15dd02cb5644%2Flogitech-ue-6000-active-noise-canceling-headphones?sdtid=7034610&affiliate_network=tanganetwork&click_id=97c63da5a6762e05aca6daa93b69970e&affiliate=slickdeals&utm_source=tanganetwork&utm_campaign=slickdeals
They come up for these type of prices pretty often.
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Cheap headphones ... no superlux love here? :)p6
Honourable mention, yes. I will explain. When you have little money but want "good" sounding headphones or speakers go for discontinued and vintage in good condition for affordable prices.
We live in a society where good products are sometimes dumped for no other reason than the BCG-Matrix and the product life time cycle. Cash cows, yes please, rising stars also yes please, question marks a maybe and dogs were once cash cows or question marks. The dogs will be dumped like industrial garbage and residue.
If I come across as a cynic, well I am with regards to a society which is doomed if hypes and new products hinder much needed sustainability.
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UE6000 is pretty good. Very bassy, but good. Distortion levels are low, so they sound fairly clean, and the overall sound is decently cohesive. Midrange and treble response is surprisingly neutral and balanced. Not a bad deal around $80-90 at all. I think the Aurvana Live might be a bit better with some basic mods if you can get over the somewhat high bass distortion (works great at low volumes).
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+Rag
+Yggy (yes, add it already!)
- Noble 4 (how do you guys like those?)
+ Noble 6 (slightly more U version of UERM, but with smoother better extended treble)
+ Pendulumic S1 Stance (sound is quite nice and Bluetooth flexibility with built in and additional battery capacity and only $199)
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+Rag
+Yggy (yes, add it already!)
- Noble 4 (how do you guys like those?)
+ Noble 6 (slightly more U version of UERM, but with smoother better extended treble)
+ Pendulumic S1 Stance (sound is quite nice and Bluetooth flexibility with built in and additional battery capacity and only $199)
Max, can you say a few words on the Pen S1 Stance? I've been looking at those for a gift. What type of tonal balance (warm, V-shaped, etc.)?
RE: I believe the Noble 4 customs are supposed to be more refined and smoother especially in the treble.
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I'd say they have an LCD3 type of signature. Solid bass and mids with smoothed off treble. Should be complimentary for most music and people. Felt like they were driven well even in Bluetooth mode.
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I'd say they have an LCD3 type of signature. Solid bass and mids with smoothed off treble. Should be complimentary for most music and people. Felt like they were driven well even in Bluetooth mode.
Clamp is significantly improved from their first rev, which was vise-like in grip. Pads are much softer. I still think the sound is meh though off an iPhone 5.
I actually walked away impressed with the N4. Have a set on me now.
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+Rag
+Yggy (yes, add it already!)
- Noble 4 (how do you guys like those?)
+ Noble 6 (slightly more U version of UERM, but with smoother better extended treble)
+ Pendulumic S1 Stance (sound is quite nice and Bluetooth flexibility with built in and additional battery capacity and only $199)
Definite + on the Noble 6. I do like it better than the 4.
I'm a little surprised the Kaiser 10 hasn't done better with folks on Changstar.
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I'm a little surprised the Kaiser 10 hasn't done better with folks on Changstar.
I'm not, it's pretty colored to me and some Roxanne tendencies I don't care for personally. I didn't sense any improved technicalities, in some case just the opposite. Of course these are demos.
What do you like so much about it?
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I agree. Colored but pleasant would be my description. Not much going on up top.
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I agree. Colored but pleasant would be my description. Not much going on up top.
Max, have you heard the Gungnir? If yes, care to do a compare (albeit brief) versus the Yggy? In fact anybody please. My current plan is to get the Rag/Yggy ("Raggy") for the house and move my G/M to the office and the Bifrost to somebody who wants it.
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Yes, I don't really care for it with HD800s. I can't make any comparisons since I'm hearing rag and yggy together. I don't know which is responsible for what sound.
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Yes, I don't really care for it with HD800s. I can't make any comparisons since I'm hearing rag and yggy together. I don't know which is responsible for what sound.
Hmmm... I find I have no issues with the Gungnir and the 800 as long as I am using either the Vali or the BH Crack.
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I'm a little surprised the Kaiser 10 hasn't done better with folks on Changstar.
I'm not, it's pretty colored to me and some Roxanne tendencies I don't care for personally. I didn't sense any improved technicalities, in some case just the opposite. Of course these are demos.
What do you like so much about it?
Well, it's less that I like them so much and more that I think they do very well (as customs, as least) with a warm signature that keeps good detail; bass, mids and treble are all well done, really no obvious flaws for me. On the custom, the treble is well extended, non-fatiguing and still shines with strings. Timbre and coherence are good for a multi-ba design.
I guess what I'm saying is if something like the he-500 is up, then I'm surprised a class act like the kaiser isn't. I'm not really arguing this with any sort of feeling, just explaining my previous post, you see. :)p8
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Well, the HE500 certainly wasn't my call. I thought it was overpriced as well but other phones lately make it look like a bargain.
The only thing I can think to say about the HE500 is it's the Oppo PM1 done better for less I suppose.
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Most agree the Noble 4 is pretty good so let's just keep that one up there.
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Well, the HE500 certainly wasn't my call. I thought it was overpriced as well but other phones lately make it look like a bargain.
The only thing I can think to say about the HE500 is it's the Oppo PM1 done better for less I suppose.
Was thinking about dropping HE-500 (it was on the old wall of fame), but given that everything else is so expensive, it stays. It's sort of a CS statement that newer more expensive stuff (not picking on HFM, but rather industry as a whole) isn't really that much better if better at all.
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The K550 is tricky. I think I had a decent pair. It did many things well given a proper seal. $99 is a steal for them, unless you really get a bad pair. Ive only heard two and noticed a difference but both were tolerable in their "bad" areas. Then again I liked the K545 better and they already have a lot of competition at their price point.
I did like the HE5+EF5 combo I plunged on the first moment they came out (799 or 899 total). Very source dependent was my reaction then, which made me sort of go all out on upstream gear upgrading..
I guess you could get a good if not better pairing with the affordable Schiit gear and some HFM phones now though.
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Well, the HE500 certainly wasn't my call. I thought it was overpriced as well but other phones lately make it look like a bargain.
The only thing I can think to say about the HE500 is it's the Oppo PM1 done better for less I suppose.
Was thinking about dropping HE-500 (it was on the old wall of fame), but given that everything else is so expensive, it stays. It's sort of a CS statement that newer more expensive stuff (not picking on HFM, but rather industry as a whole) isn't really that much better if better at all.
You could maybe put 'conditional recommendation' mark on them... I agree that stock HE-500 is not that good but jerg-padded and with some mods? Hard to beat (especially for the current price) - probably my favourite headphone of all... And I have a hard time finding out anything else that could beat them for me. Slants failed in the end.
Disclaimer: Yes, I haven't heard every headphone on this planet.
Disclaimer 2: No, I don't think it's the best headphone in an absolute sense... Just in relation to my personal needs, so far.
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I think the HE-500 has enough going for it due to mod potential, or even just slapping on some FocusPads if you're really lazy. Stock and at their launch price, I could see that being questionable to put up on the list.
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Considering it's "cheap" in relative terms for a "decent" planar, I'm leaving it up. The HE-400 was dropped though from the prior list.
Is K550 really $99 now?
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Oh snap. Thought it was you who said it, but missed the "used" part. My bad! Anything with a "box of chocolates" trait I think cannot be considered worth the list. Like the DT1350 and what not.
I know the K701s been dropped and I am not saying they should be up there, but damn every measurement of the K70X-series has been consistent and channel matching has been top notch. I would call that amazing quality control for what is $200 new. Sure some of the new technology is still young and instead of mastering something companies are stressed over producing something new every 6 months. Kind of the same fault with the mobile phone market. Too busy pushing the same shit a little updated every too often.. Is the HD800 only thing TOTL that is more consistent than K70X?
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Most all the Senns have showed fairly good channel matching as well as consistency between different units. Certain pad deformations notwithstanding. That includes the HD600/650
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Well, if we are talking seriously about the dt1350 for the "closed" category, we should talk about the dt150. Same price point. Has been measured and discussed elsewhere on CS. The basics:
-sounds great, w/ amp
-measures great
-very responsive to eq (if you're into that)
-readily available brand new at $300
-often on sale at the old skool A/V sites down in the low/mid $200 range
-not plagued with manuf. inconsistencies
-built like a fucking tank
-easily repaired
-doesn't hurt to wear
-you can leave it unlocked, all night, in front of your house, and no one will steal it
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Maybe we need a conditional box of chocolates category. User assumes all risk and responsibility for whatever shows up at their door. Then we'll include that video of the Beyer QC chick measuring only one channel with a one second tone and boxing it up GTG!
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Maybe we need a conditional box of chocolates category. User assumes all risk and responsibility for whatever shows up at their door. Then we'll include that video of the Beyer QC chick measuring only one channel with a one second tone and boxing it up GTG!
Pretty much this. I’ve heard great sounding DT 1350s, DT 250-250s, K550s, and UE6000s. I’ve also heard pairs of each of these that have sounded like absolute schiit. All four of these fall under the "Box of Chocolate" category IMO. (I've heard one very good UE 6000, and three awful ones. I bought a hardwired demo model UE6000 last week off eBay for $20. After listening to them, I'd have rather used the money for 2x KSC-75s.)
The closed headphone category is just full of headphones with product variance, poor price-to-performance ratios, fit problems, and questionable build quality. I really like the CAL, the M-80, and the MDR-1R at their going prices though.
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Could anybody experienced recommend some quality budget DACs (like up to 400 or maybe 500USD)? The only thing I would need is a HQ USB input (in other words, Wyrd and other 'magic' devices not needed for nice SQ) and a toslink input (does not need to be on par with the USB one). It must be possible to switch between these two inputs.
Thank you very much in advance :wheel:
(Note: I am aware of Bifrost but it would be way over my budget to get/import it to Europe)
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Fostex HP-A4?
I really liked the HP-A3. Plus it's transportable and convenient. USB-powered.
You could look at the Asus Essence One, too.
Besides that, Audio-Gd obviously comes to mind. The NFB-3 was hard to beat at its price. There should still be some WM8741 DACs available.
Can't you stretch your budget to Emotiva DC-1? Good sound and awesome functionalities for the price.
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Fostex HP-A4?
I really liked the HP-A3. Plus it's transportable and convenient. USB-powered.
You could look at the Asus Essence One, too.
Besides that, Audio-Gd obviously comes to mind. The NFB-3 was hard to beat at its price. There should still be some WM8741 DACs available.
Can't you stretch your budget to Emotiva DC-1? Good sound and awesome functionalities for the price.
I should note that I am using Audio-GD Compass2 with ES9018 (and have WM8741 DAC board incoming). I've had some difficulties with the DAC section and USB driver does not seem to be as solid as I remember from Yulong DA8... That's why I am considering to switch to a different solution (if the Compass2 is still not stable enough after inspection/repair).
I would say that I need versatility and flawless stability (including drivers/firmware) more than ubergreat sound quality.
Thank you very much, will look into the Emotiva DC-1 especially, heard some good things about it... Any other recommendations? Anyone?
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Call up Emotiva and see if they'll sell you DC-1 B stock.
Where in Europe are you?
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The emotiva dc-1 fits your needs and budget if you can get it b-stock. There are also a couple of audio-gd dacs/amps that will work as well.
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Matrix Mini-I.
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Probably too late for a Geek Pulse at a good feature/price ratio.
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Thank you very much to all of you for advices...
I will wait for the Compass2 to arrive and test WM8741 vs ES9018 most probably. I will also test Audio-GD SA-31SE against it... And do my DAC decision afterwards based on conclusions.
Still, would be nice to see more budget amps and DACs on the board - it does not seem to function perfectly at the moment in these categories (otherwise I wouldn't ask for advices, logically).
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No love for the humble Pico DAC?
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No love for the humble Pico DAC?
At $349 for the DAC/amp, it gets stomped by both the Herus and the Geek Out 450. At $300 for the DAC only, I'd take either of the previous options, an ODAC (provided you have decent USB), or a bifrost if you don't need portability. And yes, I've owned all three (four if you count the two variations of the Pico).
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I bought mine used for a more reasonable price.
Apparently it is a bit of darling from the pre-ODAC era.
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I went from FiiO E10 to the Pico DAC, the increase in SQ was really small. Back in the day some people went really crazy about it mostly because there weren't many alternatives around and it was made by Headamp. The build quality is pretty decent tho. I bought mine 2nd hand for 150 bucks.
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Apparently it is a bit of darling from the pre-ODAC era.
I've had one for maybe four years or so now. I don't think it's aged well. The DAC is based on the cheap WM8740, and it doesn't support anything higher than 16/48 but upsamples everything to 24/96. It does sound quite neutral, but it's also a little flat and not very spacious. The Dacport LX which I also own is much better and $100 cheaper brand new. It's still a good option for connecting via android otg or apple devices via digital out though.
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I went from FiiO E10 to the Pico DAC, the increase in SQ was really small. Back in the day some people went really crazy about it mostly because there weren't many alternatives around and it was made by Headamp. The build quality is pretty decent tho. I bought mine 2nd hand for 150 bucks.
Wow really?
This makes me want to buy the E10k even more. I thought the Pico would be much better than it...
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I went from FiiO E10 to the Pico DAC, the increase in SQ was really small. Back in the day some people went really crazy about it mostly because there weren't many alternatives around and it was made by Headamp. The build quality is pretty decent tho. I bought mine 2nd hand for 150 bucks.
Wow really?
This makes me want to buy the E10k even more. I thought the Pico would be much better than it...
The Pico is better. Everything else depends on the set up. With speakers the placement matters.
With headphones the chain of source + DAC + amplifier matters. Either way I still like my Pico DAC. Second hand it still is a good buy and very easy to set up. Easy to set up, less things to go wrong. Just do not pay too much for it...
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In my case the downstream chain was my Dynalo and the HD650. I'm not saying it was bad in any way, as long as you don't pay the full price. I would never pay more than 200 bucks for an USB powered DAC, that's for sure.
After the Pico I got a Parasound D/AC-1600, that was like something entirely else sound wise. Still one of my favourite DACs, if only I hadn't killed the output stage.
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Let's do this. Tells us why your nomination is better than similarly priced or more expensive options and which those are.
I don't think I like X cuz it sounds good to me is not going to advance an argument much.
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Let's do this. Tells us why your nomination is better than similarly priced or more expensive options and which those are.
I don't think I like X cuz it sounds good to me is not going to advance an argument much.
Eh? Did I nominate something (except HE-4 which was apparently refused)?
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^when you post in a thread meant for nominating gear, its kinda assumed that you are doing precisely that.Rather obvious, no?
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^when you post in a thread meant for nominating gear, its kinda assumed that you are doing precisely that.Rather obvious, no?
I reacted to Clemmaster's post... That's all.
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I nominate Alex Cavalli's LL2 on the account that there are not that many stat amps, the Electra is no longer being made, and the BH takes years to deliver, and everything else is DIY.
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That's a very good point. The LL2T is pretty much unchallenged in the production stat amp space. AND it now comes in two flavors.
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Sony DR-Z7, Pioneer Monitor 10-II, and Sennheiser HD250 Linear II should all be added to vintage.
But perhaps you can make that decision yourself, if you don't mind doing some measurements p;)
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I nominate K7XX or K712? Warmer than K701, maybe rougher in the mid-treble. But same good qualities - articulate and resolving as K701. Just better tonally - not cold and analytical.
I second the LL2 for stat amp. Not many stat amps out there. Maybe BHSE as a conditional recommendation with O2mk1?
I also nominate Yggy even though only three people here have heard it. We can wait on that one.
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I nominate K7XX or K712? Warmer than K701, maybe rougher in the mid-treble. But same good qualities - articulate and resolving as K701. Just better tonally - not cold and analytical.
I disliked the masking on K712: you can still hear the crisp treble under the midbass. It could be OK at the Massdrop price, not otherwise though.
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What they going for on Amazon? $350ish. Yeah, maybe a bit too much. I'd like to see them at $250-$275.
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Sent the K7XX my way, and I'll let you know what I think. ;)
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The K702 Annies (K712) were pleasant but quickly fatiguing.
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I have a few I think belong to the list, perhaps more so than some of the others I saw.
Ortho / Stat
Stax SR-407 with 507 pads (exact same sound as SR-507) - Baby SR-009 but not as refined, not as textured, not as good soundstage, but good enough to kick most dynamic headphones ass in the same price range, specially if ordering directly from Japan or used market. Comfort with Lambdas can be an issue.
Code X - Super rare modded HE-5 - One of the best orthos on the market, need powerful amp
In-ears
JVC FXD70 - V shaped with somewhat thin mids mids, great treble detail and timbre, exciting sound. This 30 USD little thing made out of machine drilled stainless steel has turned a grown man crying on more than one occasion. That is the best grade I can give to an audio product. Excels with instruments and likes a bit of EQ to the mids.
Best value I know. Much better than say a CAL!. Rather listen to this than any TWFK by a mile. It can both rock you out and play sensitive violin passages.
T Peos Altone 200 - Mild V shaped hybrid with great clarity and detail for it's asking price. Good quality bass. Still that TWFK sound but the added dynamic bass driver helps out in giving it a more well rounded music experience. Great value.
Dita The Answer (non truth version) - Great balance, perhaps slightly U shaped, good all-rounder, offer good value compared to the uber-expensive universals like K3003.
Amps
Yamaha CR-620 - Great power, clarity, sense of realism and smoothness. Bass is boomy unless you recap it. Much prefer this over the Schiit Vali with my HD800, or when I think of it anything under 1000.
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By the way this thread is now featured on Tyll's site IF
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I'd like to add a few suggestions to the list. I've been on a vintage amp/receiver kick for the past few years or so. Many of these "old steel" beast can make for incredible headphone amps especially for orthos...plus the drive your speakers pretty nicely :-)
I've mostly owned the Pioneer SX series. The best of the bunch for me is the sx-1280. Weighs about 65 pounds and has that shagadelic 70's vibe that I think is cool as hell.
Just this week I picked up the nearly unobtainable Fisher 500c (restored). I will definitely be bringing it to the next meet...it is a jaw dropping, sometimes tear inducing experience. After spending a couple of days listening to speakers with it and being completely amazed at it's abilities, I decided to plug in the hd800 into the Fisher's "earphone" jack. I nearly schiiit myself. The 500c embarrasses the Valhalla 2...and I really like the Val 2. Truly amazing. Vintage gear FTW...
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I listened to the Fisher 500c just last weekend. It really does sound that good. My comments from over at Head-Fi (http://www.head-fi.org/t/741692/chi-uni-fi-8-5-chicago-area-hp-meet-nov-8th-2014-impressions):
"I’ll start with what I thought was, for me, the evening equipment highlight: Keith’s vintage restored Fisher 500C > HiFiMan HE-6. When I made it back home later in the evening, I had to Google what the large brown box was. The 500C sufficiently tamed the HE-6’s treble peaks/etch while allowing the clean high range to come through. The 500C added smidge of warmth to the HE-6 but it didn’t remove any of the HE-6’s attack or crispness…nor did it introduce any smear or stuffiness. Talk about slam: the 500C let the HE-6 dip low and deep – and then hit you in the face with its impact. When I got up from listening to “Billy Jean” I think I was still feeling the bounce. Great combination, an engaging and enjoyable listen!"
I'd definitely second that nomination, to be added to the Vintage/Out-of-Production pile.
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I listened to the Fisher 500c just last weekend. It really does sound that good. My comments from over at Head-Fi (http://www.head-fi.org/t/741692/chi-uni-fi-8-5-chicago-area-hp-meet-nov-8th-2014-impressions):
"I’ll start with what I thought was, for me, the evening equipment highlight: Keith’s vintage restored Fisher 500C > HiFiMan HE-6. When I made it back home later in the evening, I had to Google what the large brown box was. The 500C sufficiently tamed the HE-6’s treble peaks/etch while allowing the clean high range to come through. The 500C added smidge of warmth to the HE-6 but it didn’t remove any of the HE-6’s attack or crispness…nor did it introduce any smear or stuffiness. Talk about slam: the 500C let the HE-6 dip low and deep – and then hit you in the face with its impact. When I got up from listening to “Billy Jean” I think I was still feeling the bounce. Great combination, an engaging and enjoyable listen!"
I'd definitely second that nomination, to be added to the Vintage/Out-of-Production pile.
Was the 500c and he-6 connected with speaker taps? That would be my guess but I was curious.
Also, I nominate the Vsonic gr07 mkii for OOP and the same iem BE variant (not really a basshead iem at all). Incredible value for about $120.
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Was the 500c and he-6 connected with speaker taps? That would be my guess but I was curious.
IIRC, they were. Re: The Vsonic gr07 mkii and BE, I know that quite a few people here have heard them - so I'm sure they'll chime in. I've only heard the gr07 Classic which I did really enjoy...despite the sibilance. (If for nothing else, I think this line should get a nod for comfort alone.)
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Maybe the gr07 only on the condition that PEQ is used to tame the treble peaks. They are quite comfortable though!
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If we are considering the GR07 MKII, we definitely need to consider the TDK BA-200. They are discontinued so keep that in mind, but I enjoyed the TDK much more than the Vsonic.
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I'm shooting down the Vsonic on basis on FR. I do agree that the FR is very easy to correct with EQ, and once corrected, it's pretty darn good. Just need more compelling arguments for reconsideration. Let's chew on this.
BTW, it's OK to throw stuff up again for reconsideration.
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Third (and last?) nomination for Yoga clones XPT100, HM5, &c. Anax and Greed seconded it; hans voted no.
We could give it up a straight up or down vote, wait for the comparo, or vote now and change our minds later.
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These are same as FA003? How much again? $130? I think good choice for closed headphones.
I'd like to nominate V-Moda M80 since they can be had for $110 now. Light weight good portable headphone built like a tank.
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These are same as FA003? How much again? $130? I think good choice for closed headphones.
Yeah, so far as I know it's the same as the original FA003 (not the Ti).
XPT100 is $100 and HM5 is $130. XPT100 comes with both standard flat pads and also angled pads with narrower openings, and it has a more flexible headband. HM5 pads are firmer which in effect makes them a little deeper, but XPT100 uses slightly less-hot pleather.
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I'd like to nominate V-Moda M80 since they can be had for $110 now. Light weight good portable headphone built like a tank.
Seconded on the V-Moda. Crazy deal right now. Plus, great manufacturing consistency: every one of that headphone I've heard has sounded pretty well the same.
Yeah, it's the same as the original FA003 (not the Ti).
XPT100 is $100
Your XPT100 sounded nice. IIRC It was minimally modded - right? For $100, they sounded fantastic.
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Your XPT100 sounded nice. IIRC It was minimally modded - right? For $100, they sounded fantastic.
Thanks. 8) Mine had the usual mods (stiff felt in front of the driver; dynamat and polyfill in the cups). The front damping is important to me to make bright music such as countertenors and organ sound easy and pleasant. Stuffing the cups had a negligible effect, a little more sub-bass. But it's all optional and stock sounds good too.
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Yeah, it's the same as the original FA003 (not the Ti).
XPT100 is $100 and HM5 is $130. The former comes with both flat and angled pads and has a more flexible headband.
Third (and last?) nomination for Yoga clones XPT100, HM5, &c. 2-4 guys seconded it along the way.
We could give it up a straight up or down vote, wait for the comparo, or vote now and change our minds later.
I have no real issue axing the vsonic. The bass edition offers a slight tilt away from the hot treble and a little kick in the ass to the sub bass. Much more of a daily driver for me. But I have certainly heard better iems. This one just happens to be an incredible value and has adjustable nozzles which give me the best fit evar. As we all know, it all comes down to fit and seal with an iem.
I wish that you guys could hear this Fisher 500c with the hd800. I just melted through the Muddy Waters: Folk Singer 24/96 album. At one point I took off the hp's and jumped around the room like a little kid. Silly I know, but I'm just glad to be able to get this excited about anything this late in the game. Huge dynamics, very neutral, delicacy...and the control!! OMG the control is just ridiculous. I have now quite looking for an amp to "fix" the hd800. Today, I am truly happy.
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I just can't get behind the VModa based on the sound.
I'll still pick the DT1350 every time; manufacturing inconsistencies listed as a caveat, of course.
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Seconded on the V-Moda. Crazy deal right now. Plus, great manufacturing consistency: every one of that headphone I've heard has sounded pretty well the same.
Your XPT100 sounded nice. IIRC It was minimally modded - right? For $100, they sounded fantastic.
Well, I vote "Aye" on the V-Moda. I have the M-80 and declined to "upgrade" to the XS because I thought the SQ improvement was minimal if even existent. I have compared to most of the portables with which it competes and have not regretted my decision or seriously considered upgrading or changing. Plus, they are pretty indestructible and I personally like the styling. I think the XS at $200 is a great deal. But the M-80 at a little over $100, if you can find it, is an absolute steal IMO.
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The HM5 I had just sounded weird to my ears. Hard for me to recommend on a personal level. But, hey, if enough people liked what they heard at that price point, by all means put it on the list.
Vintage receivers can definitely be great, but, as I understand it, they're really left best for orthos due to generally having high output impedance. That, and having to search for a particular unit and deal with it potentially needing restoration can make it a complicated process.
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I say no to the m80 based on the sound, even if it's cheaper now. Sure, they're built well... but they're also very uncomfortable for people with classes.
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I say no to the m80 based on the sound, even if it's cheaper now. Sure, they're built well... but they're also very uncomfortable for people with classes.
I wear glasses and get on with them fine, but do need to take a break or readjust a bit after 30 minutes or so. Definitely not something I can wear for hours on end without taking a break in terms of physical comfort but they work fine for my daily commute. And also the slightly increased clamp means I can actually wear them for certain, but not all, gym activities. In contrast, I suspect that the XS, which is clearly more comfortable, would not be secure enough to wear at the gym or work out in at all. I am very pleased with the sound and to me sound better than any number of other portables that are more expensive but, of course, with respect to all of these things YMMV.
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I just can't get behind the VModa based on the sound.
I'll still pick the DT1350 every time; manufacturing inconsistencies listed as a caveat, of course.
I'd rather buy one M80 and be happy then spin the Beyerdynamic wheel and hope I get a decent set... not to mention there are some weird fit issues for many on the DT1350 making getting the right seal a PITA. I'm in the camp now that I don't want to have to fiddle around.
I'm happy to see the M80 up there.
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not exactly in line with the other products on the leaderboard, but the V-Moda boompro mic is excellent. I use it with M80s and the FSP for videoconferencing,
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I'd rather buy one M80 and be happy then spin the Beyerdynamic wheel and hope I get a decent set...
But, that's just it...I can't buy the M80 and be happy. They just don't sound...right. Not for my music, at least.
For my preferences, the 1350 sound is simply in another class.
Thankfully, the fit issues were nonexistent for me. I find them far more comfortable than the M80s, which always felt strange on my ears due to the pad shape. I can wear the 1350s for hours without issue. But, I don't wear glasses and am not sensitive to tight(er) clamp. In fact, I prefer it. And, for a portable headphone where seal/isolation is important, the two headphones aren't close.
I only bought one pair, and feel good about them. I'd be afraid to send them to Marv for measurement. I'm sure he'd tell me that my pair is the worst he's ever measured and that my ears are made of lead :P
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On one hand, I agree with Skyline that the good DT1350 that I've heard (the one I currently have) sounds better than the V-Moda M-80. In particular, it has noticeably better low bass extension and overall detail extraction.
On the other hand, it took me five DT1350s to get one that didn't have either a serious L/R channel mismatch (3 pairs) or serious problems with the frequency response (1 pair). Beyer's QC must consist of a single drunk deaf German guy.
The DT1350's also haven't been subject to the same kind of price deflation. The lowest I've ever seen them was for $145+$5 S&H new from Cowboom last year. I've seen new M-80's regularly go for $80 (well, lower than that, but I'm discounting the fluke Radio Shack $40 deal). I've seen "like new" used models go for as low as $60.
One real question that we should probably think about is whether or not we want to discount On-Ears purely because of comfort? If we do, that will pretty much eliminate most from the category that isn't a Koss Portapro/KSC-75 or other variant. I would understand that move too, because this whole category of headphone has awful ergonomics relative to both circumaurals and IEM's. I'm a glasses wearer myself and I know that discomfort keeps my on-ears from getting as much head time as they should. Probably something to keep in mind.
not exactly in line with the other products on the leaderboard, but the V-Moda boompro mic is excellent. I use it with M80s and the FSP for videoconferencing,
The beautiful thing is how well it works with non-V-Moda products. I bought one for a gamer friend to use with his Skullcandy Aviators and it works fine. If it works with a Sony MDR-1R (it likely does), that would probably be the most comfortable gaming headset I could imagine. I'll have to try that out later.
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On one hand, I agree with Skyline that the good DT1350 that I've heard (the one I currently have) sounds better than the V-Moda M-80. In particular, it has noticeably better low bass extension and overall detail extraction.
On the other hand, it took me five DT1350s to get one that didn't have either a serious L/R channel mismatch (3 pairs) or serious problems with the frequency response (1 pair). Beyer's QC must consist of a single drunk deaf German guy.
The DT1350's also haven't been subject to the same kind of price deflation. The lowest I've ever seen them was for $145+$5 S&H new from Cowboom last year. I've seen new M-80's regularly go for $80 (well, lower than that, but I'm discounting the fluke Radio Shack $40 deal). I've seen "like new" used models go for as low as $60.
One real question that we should probably think about is whether or not we want to discount On-Ears purely because of comfort? If we do, that will pretty much eliminate most from the category that isn't a Koss Portapro/KSC-75 or other variant. I would understand that move too, because this whole category of headphone has awful ergonomics relative to both circumaurals and IEM's. I'm a glasses wearer myself and I know that discomfort keeps my on-ears from getting as much head time as they should. Probably something to keep in mind.
The beautiful thing is how well it works with non-V-Moda products. I bought one for a gamer friend to use with his Skullcandy Aviators and it works fine. If it works with a Sony MDR-1R (it likely does), that would probably be the most comfortable gaming headset I could imagine. I'll have to try that out later.
I wonder if the T51P is subject to the same QC issues.
It's a very similar headphone to the 1350. I prefer the 1350 sound, but there are many out there who disagree.
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I'm fond of the DT1350 and T51p, myself. Best headphones Beyerdynamic makes these days lol.
The T51p's consistency seems pretty good; I heard three of them in a short span, as I had to keep sending them back due to the jack coming loose in transit and scratching the earcup.
The NAD Viso is also good.
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propose the Code-X for OOP headphones. edit:The Code-X is the best hifiman I've ever heard.
Also, I'd take the FSP over the NAD most of the time on SQ alone. I've been using one with the little cracks in the headband for many months and they're just cosmetic defects at this point.
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The Focal Spirit Pro is great --- I made a thread here singing its praises, which is something I rarely do, as I know folks here are picky SOBs lol. It has a nice neutral leaning sound sig, though I find it can also be a bit less engaging on certain tracks compared to the Beyers which are more "musical." The NADs sound least correct to me of the three, but they're the most comfortable and have an exaggerated audiophile-ish type of tonal balance.
The Sony MA900 is good sonically and extremely comfortable too IMO, but its built quality is shitty.
I miss the SA5000.
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- FSP then with *noted for possible fit issues (big heads or big ears)? Let's go with this? Yeah or neah? I'm tempted to say yes.
- DT1350 I'm on the verge. I really do like the good ones. Still kinda pricey. I want to be sure they don't have issues with consistency.
- M-80. Just a little over $100. Yes, SQ is not perfect. Will the detractors make a better case on why they feel the SQ doesn't warrant the M-80 being on the list given it's price? (I can say it, but I want you guys who don't like to to say it and make a stronger case against it.) Can you guys name an alternative?
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I’m a definite +1 on the FSP. I understand that fit varies from person to person as much as sound does; but they do fit me so they have my vote. If I have a gripe with them, it’s the vague detents of the adjustable headband- much like most full-sized Beyers. I like a solid “CLICK!” like those on the Senns. Even better are the clicks on the newer Sonys and Ultrasones just to name a few. But I digress.
My M80s have just gotten more bassy since I first got them; so much that I gave them away. I’m not sure if the seal got better on them or my tastes have changed. Perhaps a bit of both. In that price range but perhaps a different category, has anyone listened to the MDR-7506 lately? They are quite “monitor-ish” sounding for me and maybe a tad lifeless. But I think they’re extraordinarily competent in a lot of ways. My biggest gripe with these older Sonys has always been the pads- that they get too warm for me quickly. But I found an alternative aftermarket pad (Yaxi) that is almost as good as any other non-leather pad.
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- FSP then with *noted for possible fit issues (big heads or big ears)? Let's go with this? Yeah or neah? I'm tempted to say yes.
- DT1350 I'm on the verge. I really do like the good ones. Still kinda pricey. I want to be sure they don't have issues with consistency.
- M-80. Just a little over $100. Yes, SQ is not perfect. Will the detractors make a better case on why they feel the SQ doesn't warrant the M-80 being on the list given it's price? (I can say it, but I want you guys who don't like to to say it and make a stronger case against it.) Can you guys name an alternative?
Works for me :D
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- FSP then with *noted for possible fit issues (big heads or big ears)? Let's go with this? Yeah or neah? I'm tempted to say yes.
I have a small head and medium ears but it was on ear and uncomfortably tight.
Nay because see photo after 24 days. I've had cables cut out a couple of times on other headphones but never an outright snap just sitting on my head.
If it were just my bad luck, fine. But many others have reported discomfort and cracks.
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IF you don't keep the FSP, take the FSClassic ;) ... Overally same sound but a bit less forward and a bit more relax. better built , same cups. I can understand fit issues and crackling issue but for SQ alone one of the focal deserves its place in the leaderboard. period. I Prefer the FSP but its a matter of tastes and there's nothing wrong to my ears with the Focal Spirit Classic.
pics of the Classic.. you can see the headband seems much more solid.
(http://www.tellementnomade.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Focal_Classic_Rotule.jpg)
(http://www.tellementnomade.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Focal_Classic.jpg)
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The M80 and DT1350 can wait. They will be put in the for consideration slot and either inducted or dropped in a few months.
Let's put FSP up there as a conditional basis (fitment, cracks, etc.)
Also, I'd like to nominate Metrum Octave. It fills a niche for laid back R2R warm sound. A "colored" DAC that works magic on vocals.
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Make me a favor Marvey and put the Sonett too. Then I'll have a Full Pyrate approved Headphone rig :P
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TH900 again... as a conditional. I don't like that treble sharpness, but its clarity, lack of distortion, bass quality (and quantity) are unsurpassed for dynamics.
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I'd be OK with the Octave on the list, though I'm curious how other R2R NOS DACs in a similar price range might compare. Some of those might knock it down for me if I were to try them. It would need to be a conditional entry - very smooth, laid-back, good sense of musicality, but also isn't a super detailed DAC. I love the presentation myself and don't mind the lack of super detail retrieval most of the time (it is more disappointing in back-to-back tests), and it might be one of the best if you're easily fatigued (without being totally boring), but it's not for everyone.
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Hmm, let me write a letter to MDHT.
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TH900 again... as a conditional. I don't like that treble sharpness, but its clarity, lack of distortion, bass quality (and quantity) are unsurpassed for dynamics.
Has anyone tried to tame that treble sharpness? I like the sound other than that treble. Also have an issue with the price. At $2K the price was absurd. They lowered it to $1500 but I still think that is too much. At $1K I'd say its a pretty good buy considering the competition. I really liked the TH-900 with the Stratus.
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I really liked the TH900 when I heard it...but $1500 does make me cringe a little. But, hell, if we're going to have the Abyss up there...why not!
+1 on the FSP. Good to see it up there...even if that headband quality is awful. Maybe sometime I'll pick up the Classic. It really does seem like it has a nicer build.
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Has anyone tried to tame that treble sharpness? I like the sound other than that treble. Also have an issue with the price. At $2K the price was absurd. They lowered it to $1500 but I still think that is too much. At $1K I'd say its a pretty good buy considering the competition. I really liked the TH-900 with the Stratus.
My guess is you could probably tame it with some TP, felts, foams, fabrics, etc. in front of the driver. I know the Denon predecessors had a nice spot in front of the driver where you could plop material.
Hmm, let me write a letter to MDHT.
I think you mentioned seeing if I could hit them up about a DAC to try, and while I am/was considering doing that, you'd probably be a better person to check with them than me.
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The nature of the TH900 peak is untameable with mods, i.e. felt, whatever, etc. it's just a bad spot. if it were pushed up to near 9-10k, then maybe. Similar reason why the Alpha-dogs really are not that tameable - at least not without throwing 5 layers of felt on it - which causes other very deleterious effects.
TH900 is nice on the Stratus though.
Fuck it, I'm putting it up. Mainly because the TH900 brings certain unique niche qualities not found on other dynamics. Conditional. If anyone objects, say so now.
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IF you don't keep the FSP, take the FSClassic ;) ... Overally same sound but a bit less forward and a bit more relax. better built , same cups. I can understand fit issues and crackling issue but for SQ alone one of the focal deserves its place in the leaderboard. period. I Prefer the FSP but its a matter of tastes and there's nothing wrong to my ears with the Focal Spirit Classic.
pics of the Classic.. you can see the headband seems much more solid.
(http://www.tellementnomade.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Focal_Classic_Rotule.jpg)
(http://www.tellementnomade.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Focal_Classic.jpg)
I so wanted to purchase a pair of these, or the Pros, but while doing my typical obsessive hours and hours of research, I read a few complaints that these headphones simply don't work when wearing glasses. Can anyone here who wears glasses confirm or deny this?
It's tough being bespectacled with a large head in this hobby. :)
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I use the FSPs with glasses. I don't have problems with headphones + glasses, though.
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Fuck it, I'm putting it up. Mainly because the TH900 brings certain unique niche qualities not found on other dynamics. Conditional. If anyone objects, say so now.
Despite the fact I hated this headphone when I tried it, I must recognize it's a very good heaphone. It brings something really special on the table.. unique mix between clean analytical sound and fun signature. i didn't forget the opportunity to try it out my sonnet to see if I can bear it form this amp but I'm afraid of the HO impedance of 12 ohms.
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The nature of the TH900 peak is untameable with mods, i.e. felt, whatever, etc. it's just a bad spot. if it were pushed up to near 9-10k, then maybe. Similar reason why the Alpha-dogs really are not that tameable - at least not without throwing 5 layers of felt on it - which causes other very deleterious effects.
TH900 is nice on the Stratus though.
Fuck it, I'm putting it up. Mainly because the TH900 brings certain unique niche qualities not found on other dynamics. Conditional. If anyone objects, say so now.
It wasn't perfect, but I loved the TH900. I'm all for listing it.
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Some possible nominees:
In the cheap as *$#* category: Philips she3590 and xiaomi pistons that ultrabike measured sound better to me than a lot higher costing in ear crap. JVC HAS400/500 is cheap as hell too
In the budget(under 100): takstar pro80 just so much value and the ue6000 sounds very inoffensive, I liked it better than mad dogs fwiw.
I vote nay on the m-80 just because those latter two sound better, plus I think those JVC carbon nanotubes are just as good as m-80.
In the mid tier: better construction of the Focal Classic and more musical(whatever that means) presentation kinda won me over
For a more monitor sound, I think the Sony 7520 betters the Focal Pro in bass impact and comfort, but the real upper treble might be too rolled off for some pirates.
In omg it costs how much tier: yay on the fostex, the bass is too addicting to not be included
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The nature of the TH900 peak is untameable with mods, i.e. felt, whatever, etc. it's just a bad spot.
That's a tempting challenge for our modders!
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TH900 again... as a conditional. I don't like that treble sharpness, but its clarity, lack of distortion, bass quality (and quantity) are unsurpassed for dynamics.
+1 Lol I'm sure you knew I would be onboard for them.
Despite the fact I hated this headphone when I tried it, I must recognize it's a very good heaphone. It brings something really special on the table.. unique mix between clean analytical sound and fun signature. i didn't forget the opportunity to try it out my sonnet to see if I can bear it form this amp but I'm afraid of the HO impedance of 12 ohms.
We cannot be friends (kidding)!
The nature of the TH900 peak is untameable with mods, i.e. felt, whatever, etc. it's just a bad spot. if it were pushed up to near 9-10k, then maybe. Similar reason why the Alpha-dogs really are not that tameable - at least not without throwing 5 layers of felt on it - which causes other very deleterious effects.
TH900 is nice on the Stratus though.
Fuck it, I'm putting it up. Mainly because the TH900 brings certain unique niche qualities not found on other dynamics. Conditional. If anyone objects, say so now.
It's a christmas miracle!
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What's everyone's thoughts on the Hifiman RE400?
From memory, it seems to be slightly darker than the Tenores but without the obnoxious bass. Very high build quality and cable for a cheapie though.
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I despised the re400b that came with the hifiman player
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Relatively neutral for the price but pretty much meh (lifeless and unresolving) for the $$ if you ask me.
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Too much 2khz emphasis. Not enough treble. Sounds plasticky. Good for rock but not so good for anything else to me. Decent clarity and soundstaging. Relatively neutral yes.
Pretty compact and super comfy though. For 70 or less it's a steal. For its asking price of 99 it's pretty decent value.
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I thought the RE400 sounded pretty OK.
Pretty OK shouldn't make the leaderboard.
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Flat sounding, unnatural timbre and funky tonality from the mids to treble. Not a bad value for the price with great built quality but I felt the Tenores were overall better sounding at the sacrifice of build quality.
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Pretty OK shouldn't make the leaderboard.
This!
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Just curious, are these infamous K7XX leaderboard worthy from those that have heard them? I'm wondering if they would be a good alternative for the HD600/DT880 price range. I'm asking mostly because it seems like for someone on a budget, the HD600 seems to always be the #1 recommendation, options are good IMO.
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I agree with most of the above, just wanted to check. Got mine for $50 so that might be skewing things. A valid alternative to the Tenores but it doesn't need to be on the list. Going to give them to my brother.
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Just curious, are these infamous K7XX leaderboard worthy from those that have heard them? I'm wondering if they would be a good alternative for the HD600/DT880 price range. I'm asking mostly because it seems like for someone on a budget, the HD600 seems to always be the #1 recommendation, options are good IMO.
Really? This talk about the Tenores, damn I want something smoother than my VSD3S for "vocal music".
Should pull the trigger...
Aren`t the Takstar Pro 80 going to the Leaderboard?
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Just got a pair of RE400s. A year ago I liked the pair I gave to my wife, but that was with fairly aggressive upstream gear and without UERMs or other really good IEM experience.
With my current setups, they're boring as hell. I felt like I cheated questhate because I shared the deal with him.
Tenores are better, but mine broke (two pairs)
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HE400 is dismissed already, but just for info, these aren't that well built. Cable reliefs come of, cable follows. Cheapy feeling TDK's are much more durable.
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This thread has been an awesome read.
Its too bad there is not something to recommend between the Clip+ and the Sony NW-ZX1. That speaks well for the Clip+ and less so for the industry.
Personally, I have a hard time recommending the M80, DT1350 or the Focal Spirit Pro. All of them were so painful to my ears, but I've come to realize I'm not an "on-ear" kind of guy. They seem to bother me more than others. I liked the FSP more than the rest sonically. What I really don't get is the isolation on the M80. Maybe it would be nice walking about but it seemed useless in a coffee shop. That lack of isolation makes it tough for me to recommend.
I feel the same way about the RE400 as several of you have mentioned. Meh.
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Don't see any wireless can category, so I thought I'd mention a couple that have come across my desk.
The Meelectronics Air-fi Matrix2 AF62 has a big name but a low $89 price. They sound amazingly good for the price...hell, they're pretty damned good relative to a lot of the wireless cans. http://www.meelec.com/product_p/hp-af62-cf-mee.htm
Also, FWIW, the new Parrot Zik2 is much better sounding than it's predecessor, and has some pretty damned cool and surprisingly useful DSP tricks.
The Pendulumic Stance S1 just really isn't up to par at it's price.
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Fake Carbon Fiber or even real carbon fiber aesthetic equals instant plank walk. walk the plank
AK240 tier.
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Who cares about looks?
Having a wireless in the bag to recommend is key, I'm always getting asked by friends and family about them. :)p6
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When the top part of your headphone's pleather headband has carbon fiber print it tells me you're a douchebag.
Jokes aside, aesthetics are a low priority.
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The Meelectronics Air-fi Matrix2 AF62 has a big name but a low $89 price. They sound amazingly good for the price...hell, they're pretty damned good relative to a lot of the wireless cans. http://www.meelec.com/product_p/hp-af62-cf-mee.htm
Thanks for the recommendation Tyll. I'll likely pick this up at the beginning of next month and demo it.
One of my students left a pair of wireless headphones in my classroom on Tuesday (a Photive BTH3) and...well...it was really crap. Rolled off highs and lows, muddled midbass that bled into the midrange, artificial sounding treble, piss poor bluetooth poor range...you name it. (Going to ask the student about their impressions of the headphone when I give it back today. I think they're an Audio & Acoustics Arts Major...)
But the BTH3 did get me thinking about Bluetooth Headphones. Screwing around with the Photive around the house made me realize how nice it is to not have to worry about impedance mismatching, amplification, the annoyance of cables in general, etc. etc. That's a nice luxury, and I should probably track down something under $100 that I can recommend for Xmas season.
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When the top part of your headphone's pleather headband has carbon fiber print it tells me you're a douchebag.
Jokes aside, aesthetics are a low priority.
I will agree that carbon fiber printed onto flimsy vinyl ear pad covers are relatively cheesy looking, but hey, it's not Hello Kitties.
And they do sound fucking good.
The new Parrot Zik, on the other hand, is a sex machine. Very nice look and feel. A little confining on the ears, but that's about it for criticisms from me.
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Oh, and fwiw, the Phiaton MS530 wireless can is good too. Best product they've ever made.
(Most of them sound pretty horrendous.)
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Thanks for the recommendation Tyll. I'll likely pick this up at the beginning of next month and demo it.
One of my students left a pair of wireless headphones in my classroom on Tuesday (a Photive BTH3) and...well...it was really crap.
Hey, I didn't know you were a teachers. Me too :)
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(I just want my vocals natural, not emphasised) and overall FR (maybe too bright).
... any ideas? I could have missed something, that's why I am asking here :)p1 Thanks in advance, really
Natural vocals and balanced signature with full treble ? Find a Cinderella called T1.
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In the T1's case, its treble is too 'full.'
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In the T1's case, its treble is too 'full.'
A - Yes, but that is the impression from the early production numbers, and then it became a mantra. T1s in that numbers range had an over-enthusiastic treble. About around number between 3900 and 3950 things improved, Beyerdynamic tinkered with T1's driver, due to practically universal reaction of those who bought or reviewed T1, and the treble peak was lowered.
B - The treble might be "too full" but it can be dealt with as long as it is also not screechy /distorted/ringing. T1 has pretty clean treble, notwithstanding its energy, cleaner than the treble of its biggest competitors HD800 and K812 [I have not heard K812 but the comments from the audiophile world are practically universal in describing K812 treble as problematic]. That's a big plus for T1 as the upper midrange + treble presentation is the most problematic part of the sound of all top of the line electrodynamic headphones.
C - Still, better headphones with a too full treble than headphones with 'rolled off'/missing treble, because out of line treble can be damped by either modding or/and by matching an amp with headphones. A good tube/valve or good hybrid amp will file high frequencies edge off and soften them as well. You might not believe it but the results can be convincing. On the other hand once a good portion of treble is missing there is no trick or spell in any book of audio witchcraft to help bring it back from dead. You can give a prayer of thanks for "too full treble" headphones.
A better upper midrange and treble of T1, compared to HD800, makes T1 sound more alive and having more convincing and more natural sounding tonality. On well mastered tracks T's upper midrange + treble sounds closer to perfect than the one of other top electrodynamics.
P.S. Reportedly the recent HD800s have an improved treble, I have not heard one of them but if it is true then 'kudos' to Sennheiser.
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Hey, I didn't know you were a teachers. Me too :)
#hifive!
The Meelectronics Air-fi Matrix2 AF62 has a big name but a low $89 price. They sound amazingly good for the price...hell, they're pretty damned good relative to a lot of the wireless cans. http://www.meelec.com/product_p/hp-af62-cf-mee.htm
Got them in today - these really do sound great for their price. (Bought them for $62 "like new" from Amazon Marketplace.) They also don't sound that much different wired than they over bluetooth...which is good thing too, because the 3.5mm jack is in the *back* of their left cup. I know that MEE did it so that the cable wouldn't interfere with the buttons on the bottom. Still, it's completely odd.
The carbon fiber print is (a little) nicer in person than in the pictures. It also has a purpose: The outside of the headband and cups are fabric covered with padding and the CF print helps with scratching. The headphone is mostly a matte plastic. The plastic seems durable enough. The case that it comes with is pretty nice and should protect more than adequately. It's not V-Moda case nice, but it's not a shit vinyl pouch either.
They have solid isolation too. So much so that I didn't hear a delivery I was waiting for when the parcel post rang. I didn't have any difficulty getting my ears into the cups/pads. That being said, I have small ears. I'd expect that fit will be a slight difficulty if you have larger ears. No Alan Greenspans allowed.
No detailed comments on the sound yet, because I've only had around 6 hours of listening on them so far - all of it while working on other projects. I think I hear a slightly elevated midbass, (maybe) slightly forward upper mids, and something a little bit artificial up in the treble. None of these are glaringly wrong. It's a really pleasant listen. Good deal!
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In the T1's case, its treble is too 'full.'
Not full IMO ... peaky is the word that comes in my mind.. Awful 8 khz treble peak precisely. Mine had the a S/N around 11000 if I remember well All beyer I tried seem to have such a treble I fully dislike . those peaks don't bother some of my friends but definitely bother me .
T1's measurements they're not so clean either... http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1.pdf
I had the T1 during 3 month and trust me or not I tried to like it. But I couldn't. it's sold to someone who seems reall happy with. Happy End story. :)
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Anyone like the Shure SE215 there ?
I live with those IEM for my on the go use. It sounds fine for that use. Warm signature but good bass and mids. The treble is definitely grainy but it does not bother me for the music I listen to in transports or when I walk in the streets. Soundstage is Huge for an IEM.
I had an tried many other IEM. Westone UM2, Shure SE535, ATH IM04, Vsonic GR07, Fischer DBA02 and some are better but none did a far better work for my daily use. I even sleep with them. best things I've ever met to isolate from ambient noise. the Cable never failed, THey isolate perfectly. They're delivered with a serious package and they're well built.
Not the best IEM ever but really a serious contender in my personal leaderboard .
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I think the SE215 has plenty going for it, but I don't like the sound signature. Too thick for me.
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I wouldn't use a SE215 at home , but outside the thickness does wonder . I realized recently that my tastes was differentsfor Home use and Outside use. I wouldn't liketo have an IEM that sounds like my HD800.
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I completely agree with you about home vs. "outside". With a noisy commute via train and tube I very much consider this daily.
That said, I think the Shure IEM sound might be too polarizing to put on the leaderboard.
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That said, I think the Shure IEMs sound might be too polarizing to put on the leaderboard.
Oh really ? Here in France , the Shure some sound is generally well regarded and not polarizing. Earsonics IEM or Fitear for example is more prone to debates with fanboys against haters.
I still have a broken pair of SE535 I will maybe send to be reshelled in CIEM... Dunno. I'll probably buy a used pair of Fitear Parterre next saturday.
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I won't try and speak for the crew, I'm sure they will weigh in.
I am a 535 fan. It was my #1 until I got customs.
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Actually its one of those unfounded myths of the internet. I had 3 HD800's to check this out early, middle and current production. They were all like "peas in a pod" they sounded just the same so this speaks a lot for Sennheisers manufacturing consistency.
I have had a very long love hate relationship with the HD800 as it is so revealing of any weak links or hot or compressed recordings. Over this period I have come to admire it and feel it has to be the best overall current production dynamic headphone and the one I use most often. IMO better all round than the T1 or the AKG K812 taking all factors into account.
P.S. Reportedly the recent HD800s have an improved treble, I have not heard one of them but if it is true then 'kudos' to Sennheiser.
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Anyone like the Shure SE215 there ?
I mean, if we didn't include the RE400....
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What makes the lower end Shure IEMs appealing at their price points, I think, is their build quality and detachable cables. That's the main area where the SE215 has a leg up on the RE400 and GR07. Sonically not so much.
The best IEMs I've heard under 200 USD are the Fostex TE-05, TDK BA20, FAD Heaven IV and... I'm forgetting some.
If the DITA Answer wasn't so expensive, I'd recommend it a lot more too.
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Yup. the example is good . I bought a pair of Vsonic Classic three weeks ago. its a bit cheaper than the shure and it sounds better. but I've the worst difficulties to get a safe fit ... so they have to go and i'm back to my good old shure. I had the 535 three month ago. sounds better thant the 215 . but for mobile use , they're not engaging enough ... I had a pair of UM2.. very good too. but dunno why, finally I kept the Shure SE215 . UM2 was good but a bit too boring.
I don't really love it but.. they seem to be glued to me. i tried many IEMS including Expensive ones and all those IEM do things better than those poor SE215 but After One year the IEMs I still take with me everywhere are the SE215. I've even walked on them without any damage.
I'm not a fan though. I much prefer some other sound sig but they' re just a very good compromise for the on-the-go use. A classic.
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If the DITA Answer wasn't so expensive, I'd recommend it a lot more too.
Could you please do a capsule review of the Dita?
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Oh really ? Here in France , the Shure some sound is generally well regarded and not polarizing. Earsonics IEM or Fitear for example is more prone to debates with fanboys against haters.
I still have a broken pair of SE535 I will maybe send to be reshelled in CIEM... Dunno. I'll probably buy a used pair of Fitear Parterre next saturday.
Parterre didn't do it for me. Though it was a prototype, and maybe the mid bloom has been corrected later. Have you tried it already ?
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Have you tried it already ?
Yup. I had them for two weeks at home and really liked them a lot. but I'll try one more time saturdy before any buy.
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Has anyone else noticed a trend in cheap IEMs lately? After the RE400 was released, a bunch of brands popped up with products that had similar sound signatures and price points. Releases from TTPOD (T1E), Fidue, Dunu (DN900), Vsonic (VSD03), Zero Audio (Tenore), Xiaomi (piston 2) and even Audio Technica (IM70) and Sony (C10) in the past year. I'm sure there are a few I forgot to mention. They all have this neutral-ish sound with bass emphasis, some more than others, and smooth treble. Similar to the updated Olive-Welti curve Tyll wrote about on IF early this year.
It's good for the average consumer who doesn't want to spend too much to get good sound. I can't really single out any one of them as better than all the others, though the Tenore would probably be it because of its size and build quality except for the strain relief.
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Has anyone else noticed a trend in cheap IEMs lately? After the RE400 was released, a bunch of brands popped up with products that had similar sound signatures and price points.
You could be right about Hifiman's influence on pricing. But RE400 and Tenore don't sound similar to me; I doubt Piston or A63 do either. The other firms' QC is generally not even on Hifiman's level: too much variation and worse, channel imbalances.
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I actually settled on the SE215 as my portable out and about, too. Whether its working, doing yard work or a quick listen in a coffee shop, its a satisfying iem w/ good isolation. I wouldn't choose to listen to lots of classical with it, but for the genres that Shure iems normally does well with it does fine. I really love Shure's out of warranty repair costs, which are perfect for an iem you want to use instead of baby. You can normally get them from an authorized Shure dealer on ebay for $80. Not cheap and not perfect, but solid.
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I actually settled on the SE215 as my portable out and about, too. Whether its working, doing yard work or a quick listen in a coffee shop, its a satisfying iem w/ good isolation. I wouldn't choose to listen to lots of classical with it, but for the genres that Shure iems normally does well with it does fine. I really love Shure's out of warranty repair costs, which are perfect for an iem you want to use instead of baby. You can normally get them from an authorized Shure dealer on ebay for $80. Not cheap and not perfect, but solid.
Agree for all. including for classical : unlistenable with the SE215 IMO because of the grainy treble. For everything else the 215 does the job.
Hey mates : A french guy speaks well about a US product. that should say something !! :)p13
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Yup. I had them for two weeks at home and really liked them a lot. but I'll try one more time saturdy before any buy.
OK then. The rendering of the soundstage doesn't sound funny to you ?
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OK then. The rendering of the soundstage doesn't sound funny to you ?
I don't remember anything strange. What's your opinion ?
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To me the parterre was clearly mid-centric, with a marked effect of the titanium shell on the soundstage. The construction is meant to enhance acoustic music, but to me it was a bit shouty and the soundstage too narrow. I still have the prototype, but unfortunately it died on me quite quickly after I received it. Suyama san offered to have it fixed, but I didn't really care for it from what I had heard.
Anyway, to each his own, and I am sure it works for some people. It's still a FitEAR, so top notch construction and attention to details.
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The production Parterres I've heard are the least mid-centric and have the widest soundstage of the FitEars.
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From What I remember , the Parterre has both some forwardness and a good, layered and realistic soundstage . I remember a kind of W sound sig too. i'll see saturday if there're as good as I remember. I'm not so much an IEM guy though so I'm still reluctant to spend money for that. I've not enough use of portable rigs.
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Granted "widest soundstage for a FitEar" isn't saying much; they still had a somewhat focused presentation and forward mids. That's just FitEar's house sound.
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I remember the Fitear Parterre as a kind of HD600 duplicated in an IEM. Maybe my memory fools me.
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@MP : You're talking about the universals, right ? My 335 are definitely in another league compared to both the 334TG and the Parterre.
@Sorrodje : No worries, maybe the proto already had a wonky sound because of the failure to come. As far as it suits you, all is well.
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@MP : You're talking about the universals, right ? My 335 are definitely in another league compared to both the 334TG and the Parterre.
No, I mean the Parterre is the most "un-FitEar" of all the FitEars I've owned in terms of its presentation. The MH335DW does some things better than the TG!334 and MH334, but it still sounds characteristically "FitEar" to me. IIRC the Parterre was designed specifically to present a theatrical presentation.
The titanium tube studio mods for the MH335DW give it more treble sparkle which people seem to think an improvement. Though personally I like the MH335DW as it is.
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propose the Code-X for OOP headphones. edit:The Code-X is the best hifiman I've ever heard.
To any and all: Are Code-Xs all and only modded HE-5s? Or have HE-5LEs been so modded? (Or even HEfivehundos for that matter). - Apologize if this question gums up the convo.
But to say something on the leaderboard topic: I've found the Amperiors to be very capable, even against headphones x4 the price.
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Code-X is the original wooden HE-5.
HE-5LE and HE-500 do not a Code-X make.
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No, I mean the Parterre is the most "un-FitEar" of all the FitEars I've owned in terms of its presentation. The MH335DW does some things better than the TG!334 and MH334, but it still sounds characteristically "FitEar" to me. IIRC the Parterre was designed specifically to present a theatrical presentation.
The titanium tube studio mods for the MH335DW give it more treble sparkle which people seem to think an improvement. Though personally I like the MH335DW as it is.
Wasn't aware of the mod, but I agree, the 335DW doesn't lack sparkles up top. Also agreed that FitEAR's soundstage is rather concentrated, but it felt weird to me with the TG334 and the Parterre, whereas the 335DW feels even. I have no problem switching from the HE500 to the 335DW, and while it's been a while since I've heard the TG334 and the Parterre, I clearly remember something funky with that last one. Might be the W-like soundstage that doesn't agree with me.
[Slight edit : I'm using the 000 cable which, regardless of my opinion on cables, does seem to make a difference.]
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Code-X is the original wooden HE-5.
HE-5LE and HE-500 do not a Code-X make.
But I would like to see what he could do with a 5LE! To me it would be starting with a better platform. If I still had mine I'd be sending them to LFF and pleading for him to sprinkle some voodoo dust on them.
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I believe he already tried with the 5LE (and possibly the 6?) but it didn't produce what he wanted.
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I think this Leaderboard needs one more category, bluetooth, really bluetooth, including IEMs and headphone together.
As far as I know the main reason for this leaderboard is to help people to buy nice audio products, not just pyrates. And I really see a lot of people asking for bluetooth headphones and most people just say:
"Oh, Sennheiser RS120" and as far as I know most of them haven't seen it in person, they recommend it just because it's Sennheiser.
Would like to know which bluetooth headphones I could recommend to someone who ask me. :)p5
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We'll have to see how that Aurisonics bluetooth iem sounds when it comes out. It has a high performance version of the Rockets' driver.
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I think this Leaderboard needs one more category, bluetooth, really bluetooth, including IEMs and headphone together.
As far as I know the main reason for this leaderboard is to help people to buy nice audio products, not just pyrates. And I really see a lot of people asking for bluetooth headphones and most people just say:
"Oh, Sennheiser RS120" and as far as I know most of them haven't seen it in person, they recommend it just because it's Sennheiser.
Would like to know which bluetooth headphones I could recommend to someone who ask me. :)p5
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.msg52547.html#msg52547 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.msg52547.html#msg52547)
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http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.msg52547.html#msg52547 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.msg52547.html#msg52547)
Ohh, that`s interesting!
And just by curiosity, anyone here with the RS120?
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Maybe add Hifimans to the IEM side of things (both RE400 and RE600; for OOP RE272), and perhaps VSonic GR07 and the successors. I bet those are already in the Tyll's Hall of Fame though.
I'd toss in Beyer DT770-250 into the value section too, it sounds exactly like a cheaper closed version of DT880-250, that is, not bad. One of the better closed headphones.
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Maybe add Hifimans to the IEM side of things (both RE400 and RE600
Read from Reply #368 and on:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.360.html
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TH900 is nice on the Stratus though.
The Fostex is incredibly nice on the Sonett too. Everyone knows How i disliked the TH900 but the try in my sonett Changed my opinion. DNA amps seem to do wonders ( miracles should I say) with this fostex.
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RE400/RE600 plasticky? What. What. What. What. What. I strongly disagree. If anything, they're metallic timbre - sounds like plate reverb or a trumpet, but much less pronounced than RE-ZERO. Old RE0 were plasticky.
They are dark sounding though and the Hifiman player is dark too, so that's an extremely bad combination. Really. That Hifiman player should be banned, it sports high output impedance and a huge high end roll off.
Applying a bit of equalizer fixes this right away - they do extend to 20k, but are very rolled off. This causes the "bland" or "muffled" feeling, the 2k boost could be gone too, but is not too annoying.
RE272 were somewhat better balanced, but still not bright.
GR07 are much more plastic-sounding and less extended, but much better balanced out of the box - unfortunately the flaws they have are not as easily fixed...
They approach neutrality from two sides of sorts for a dynamic, RE from the dark side and GR07 from the bright side.
UERM and TWFK bros (DBA-02/B2/GR01) are on the other hand aggressive sounding, sharing that with Etys.
(With UERM having only a slight hint of that.) And the TWFKs are actually way less extended than RE series - large roll-off at 16kHz and a sharp wall at 18kHz nothing can really fix. (except being deaf)
I really do not prefer the large 6-7k hike in TWFKs. It's like having your ears drilled. (And the ones that have the filter (GR01, DBA-02 mkII) sound muffled and cannot be equalized, unlike the originals.)
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RE400/RE600 plasticky? What. What. What. What. What. I strongly disagree.
They are dark sounding though and the Hifiman player is dark too, so that's an extremely bad combination. Really. That Hifiman player should be banned, it sports high output impedance and a huge high end roll off.
Applying a bit of equalizer fixes this right away - they do extend to 20k, but are very rolled off. This causes the "bland" or "muffled" feeling, the 2k boost could be gone too, but is not too annoying.
RE272 were somewhat better balanced, but still not bright.
GR07 are much more plastic-sounding and less extended, but much better balanced out of the box - unfortunately the flaws they have are not as easily fixed...
They approach neutrality from two sides of sorts for a dynamic, RE from the dark side and GR07 from the bright side.
UERM and TWFK bros (DBA-02/B2/GR02) are on the other hand aggressive sounding, sharing that with Etys.
(With UERM having only a slight hint of that.) And the TWFKs are actually way less extended than RE series - large roll-off at 16kHz and a sharp wall at 18kHz nothing can really fix. (except being deaf)
I really do not prefer the large 6-7k hike in TWFKs. It's like having your ears drilled.
1-I seriously doubt the sound of veil, bland or muffledness is from what happens at 20khz. For example, you claim the TWFKs roll off earlier (which they do) and neither have the muffle, veil or anything remotely close to it. Any hit the UERM takes compared to the DBA in this department is more due any combination of crossover issues and/or acoustic tuning in a custom shell or filter choice.
2-A lot of your treble issues with TWFKs are simply the immense length of your ear canals which are longer than I have ever seen before. You simply can't obtain the proper acoustic impedance to balance the signature and tame treble issues of those IEMs the way many others can.
3-I do agree with your assessment of the GR07 though. Plastic+etch/sizzle+bloom is just too much timbre trouble even though the overall sig has a seemingly neutral signature that should please.
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No, REs are rolled off, not cut in highs. Think ancient vinyl x2. They reach -16 dB at 20k, but it starts around 3kHz. First order Butterworth kind in shape.
By the way, Olive-Weiti is wrong for IEMs, overestimates high frequencies. It does work for headphones though.
Now about TWFK - I've managed to get one of those lodged really deep in ear canal with the same filter. (Modded the heck out of B2 shell.) It helps, but not enough. Instead of 12 dB of annoying boost I get 6 dB of annoying boost. Makes them listenable, but still not pleasant. (This in comparison to 3 dB boost in GR07.)
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Well, looks like the peak went in the right direction lol. I'm impressed you went that far to try it. Bottom line is they call them 'universals' but really YMMV. ;)
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Fuck it, I'm putting it up. Mainly because the TH900 brings certain unique niche qualities not found on other dynamics. Conditional. If anyone objects, say so now.
Wholeheartedly in favor.I still <3 the TH900.
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I spent some time with it on the DNA. No objections.
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Spent a lot of time with the Th 900 and the G/M stack. While certainly enjoyable for rock, the whole set up resulted in a more pronounced V shaped experience. Could not have extended sessions with this in spite of the ridiculously comfortable HP.
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Yeah, I definitely don't hear the RE400 as plasticky either. Just dark. Still think they're a valid option seeing as how there have been QC issues with the Tenores.
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Plasticky, tinny, whatever other completely subjective audiophool words I can think of. That's what the RE-400 sounds like to me. A combination of cramped and not very coherent sound, too much energy at 2khz, with too little energy beyond 2khz, gives it a wonky timbre. RE-400 handles rock to me the best, giving added aggressiveness to the upper midrange, but for orchestral or anything acoustic, I think they're subpar.
The RE-400 isn't bassy for me either, so I don't consider them dark. I think they're midrangy. Sony Z7, Denon D2000, HE-400 (minus treble spike) are dark.
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We must have different definitions of dark, as I don't consider bassiness a prereq for darkness. I'd hate to think of what your opinion is on the Etys if you find the minor measured 2k bump to add plastickiness. I really don't hear the 2k bump (despite the plots) probably because it's being swamped by the rest of the darkness.
Added aggressiveness? The RE400 doesn't seem to have enough attack (dynamic capability) to be called aggressive. I would say orchestral and acoustic sounds poor on the RE400 for that exact reason.
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Added aggressiveness and shoutiness from the 2khz, but lack of attack and edge that you'd get from having enough lower treble in the 5khz area. That's what makes it sound weird to me.
If the Etys had the lower treble to go along with it I probably wouldn't mind them.
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My Tenore developed a channel imbalance in the past month that's gotten much worse. It's basically unusable now unless one EQs in balance (not worth it to me). :spank:
RE400 is kind of two-dimensional compared with ER4S. But I prefer it because it's comfortable and less fatiguing. (ER4S with orange filters are roughly the same degree of fatigue; PM me if you want some). I wouldn't characterize RE400 as either dark or bright but it's definitely warm-toned and not cool-toned, presumably because of the linear bass together with the treble roll off. I happen to like it and actually want it a little darker so I ordered RE600.
I'll stick with my original judgement about both: neither makes the cut.
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If you are willing to EQ a disposably priced phone. $18.50
http://www.yourbrainwavz.com/alpha.html
Easy to drive, good extension for the money, takes EQ like a boss. Clear midrange and treble, eq bass cut rather than elevation leading to distortion.
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My Tenore developed a channel imbalance in the past month that's gotten much worse. It's basically unusable now unless one EQs in balance (not worth it to me). :spank:
RE400 is kind of two-dimensional compared with ER4S. But I prefer it because it's comfortable and less fatiguing. (ER4S with orange filters are roughly the same degree of fatigue; PM me if you want some). I wouldn't characterize RE400 as either dark or bright but it's definitely warm-toned and not cool-toned, presumably because of the linear bass together with the treble roll off. I happen to like it and actually want it a little darker so I ordered RE600.
I'll stick with my original judgement about both: neither makes the cut.
There is a fix for the channel imbalance. There is a metal plate behind the nozzle mesh that has a very small opening. Apparently moisture can build up there and cause the imbalance. Several users have found that if your replace the mesh screen with a small amount of cotton wool, it permanently gets rid of the imbalance.
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I like SE215, it is very durable (http://www.thebestearbuds.com/5-most-durable-earbuds-under-50/), though, I feel the bass is quite heavy for me.
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New iem for consideration at $100, the Thinksound Rain2. Take one home, it's pretty nice for a hundred dollar earphone. Slightly warm, good timbre, extends well below, treble is present but non-ear-ice-pick-y, bro. Detail is reasonable but not phenomenal, soundstage is good, it's made of wood.
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Sounds like a Thinksound signature.
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Speaking of which, there's a 25% discount for all models at their store.
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New iem for consideration at $100, the Thinksound Rain2. Take one home, it's pretty nice for a hundred dollar earphone. Slightly warm, good timbre, extends well below, treble is present but non-ear-ice-pick-y, bro. Detail is reasonable but not phenomenal, soundstage is good, it's made of wood.
That was a poetic review on HF my man ! ;D
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Thanks! p;)
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May I nominate JVC FX-850 in the IEM category. The Best bass I have heard on an IEM plus sound so open & has clear airy treble. Has replaced the Shure SE846 (which costs 3 times more) for all my iem listening , except when I need isolation (like on a plane, in the gym etc.). It doesn't isolate very well due to its open vents. I was fooled by the cost ($275) & ordered it just for kicks as it looks good. But :-DD was Wowed by the sound.
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Disagree on the FX850 for nomination.
They do have a nice open sound and some dynamic driver charm, but I found the bass to be way too boomy and overwhelming, bleeding into the midrange and muddying up their sound. They absolutely need to be modded in my opinion using a slip of rubber under the tips to tame the low end, which is an annoying prospect because it's fiddly and slips out and has to be fixed over and over. Also they're huge and don't fit some people well at all.
The Sony EX1000 and DITA Answer are far better examples of dynamic earphones IMO.
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Cool. Will put the Ditas on my to try list. The Fx850's remind me of the TH900, which I also like a lot. Also I listen mostly to EDM so guess never noticed the bass bleeding into mids.
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Nominations:
Berkeley Alpha Series 2 DAC (esp, at current prices and used)
Schiit Yggdrasil DAC (granted only 12 people here have heard it)
Schiit Fulla (not the greatest SQ, but much better than laptop outs and ridiculous price)
NVX XPT100 (little bit spikey in treble, but $90, good mids, very clean sounding for price)
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+1 on Fulla. Beats out Fiio gear and is priced similarly. Need to compare against dragonfly 1.0 which can be had for $75 or less.
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+1 on XPT100
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OK, so on XPT100 we have 5 yeas (Anax, Greed, Austin, OJ, me) and 1 nay (Hans) so far . . .
Apart from being pretty good and likable, it also fills an important gap: "closed over ear under $150" till something better comes along.
Next topic: I would like to nominate AD900x. But I've heard it only at meets, so please take this as the half-formed idea it is. I found it inoffensive, which is much more of a compliment than that sounds. 900x sounded grainier than HD5x8 but more accurate = not blurry / smeared. Soundstage size easily beats HD5x8 and HD6x0. Of course there's the issue of the Audio-Technica headband, which cuts both ways. I wonder what y'all think of it.
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I say put the XPT100 up if everyone else likes it. Not sure how different, if at all, the HM5 was (might have slightly different ear pads), or if I had a bad pair or something. HM5 just sounded weird to me, and it might just be that its imperfections were of the sort that bother me but not most others. No fuss on my end if I'm way in the minority on it!
But, to better clarify my thoughts on them, they sounded too thick and bloated for me but had that weird effect due to the 300Hz scoop. Slight low-bass roll-off didn't help either. Something was off with the treble too, but I haven't seen any measurements that have been able to explain what I heard there. Oh well!
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Berzerkley Alpha 2? Not unless a used original PWD mk 1>2 makes it. The Alpha is a bit tonally cleaner and linear sounding (maybe a bit tonally compressed?) but the PWD is still more micro dynamics and resolving to me. Also depends which inputs. It will crush the PWD via USB. The Alpha 2 signature seemed something in between the PWD mk1>2 and a Lavry, which is not a bad thing.
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Nominate X-Sabre for DAC. Good resolution and attack. Some minor downsides. But right price and good construction. Stands above other SABRE DACs.
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Berzerkley Alpha 2? Not unless a used original PWD mk 1>2 makes it. The Alpha is a bit tonally cleaner and linear sounding (maybe a bit tonally compressed?) but the PWD is still more micro dynamics and resolving to me. Also depends which inputs. It will crush the PWD via USB. The Alpha 2 signature seemed something in between the PWD mk1>2 and a Lavry, which is not a bad thing.
PWD1->2 deserves a spot in the OOP / Legacy list. Hesitate to say "PWD2" because don't want people getting the new production PWD2s which seem like a crapshoot.
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Agree with X-Sabre. Unlike you, I actually enjoyed it better with headphones than the Gungnir, although I give the Gungnir an edge with my slightly laid back speaker setup. CEE TEE's PWD 1 > 2 via coax is much better than either, though.
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Is the X-Sabre the DAC we compared to the PWD2 in Anax's rig at that mini meet? I thought that thing sounded awful.
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Is the X-Sabre the DAC we compared to the PWD2 in Anax's rig at that mini meet? I thought that thing sounded awful.
Yeah. it was noticeably softer among other things. Maybe a fw update can help? :P
The machined casework is brilliant though. It becomes confusing when picking tradeoffs of sonics for feature sets at certain lower price points. Is it better than a Pulse Xfi+LPS would be my question. I doubt it but I haven't heard for sure yet as it's not yet shipping. Maybe we just need to separate SABRE DACs into their own category.
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Is the X-Sabre the DAC we compared to the PWD2 in Anax's rig at that mini meet? I thought that thing sounded awful.
That was the Vega. Luis hated it too.
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That was the Vega. Luis hated it too.
We had something like 4 DACs stacked on top going into the Super 7 didn't we?
Would I take an XSabre over the Vega? Hmm...I'd have to think about that.
Agreed with MArv about the PWD. Just too hard to protect people from the PWD box o chocolate effect.
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Yeah. it was noticeably softer among other things. Maybe a fw update can help? :P
The machined casework is brilliant though. It becomes confusing when picking tradeoffs of sonics for feature sets at certain lower price points. Is it better than a Pulse Xfi+LPS would be my question. I doubt it but I haven't heard for sure yet as it's not yet shipping. Maybe we just need to separate SABRE DACs into their own category.
If QH had made the meet, I would have compared the two. I think the XFi + LPS was superior to the X-Sabre.
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Here's the pic and thread (yes, that's my laptop lol. Thx Alex!):
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1364.0;attach=5246;image)
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1364.msg35788.html#msg35788 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1364.msg35788.html#msg35788)
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If QH had made the meet, I would have compared the two. I think the XFi + LPS was superior to the X-Sabre.
On that note, I'd nominate/second Geek Pulse Xfi + LPS as a good general all-in-one solution. Price is a pity, though.
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Err, that unit was a Geek Pulse XFi SE + LPS4. The cheapest you could have gotten that stack is just south of $3k.
We should see where the regular XFi + LPS lands.
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Oops.
Yeah, my bad... then in that case, I don't think I'd know where Xfi (without upgrades) would land.
Will definitely have to give the low-end version a try then.
The high-end at $3k would probably be not such a great value because Yggdrasil + some DIY amp would still beat that combo in terms of sound quality and value.
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LHL is confident that the Geek Pulse Xfi could at least compete against ~$3K DACs very well, the MSRP is $3K without LPS anyway.
Well...We'll see.
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LHL is confident that the Geek Pulse Xfi could at least compete against ~$3K DACs very well, the MSRP is $3K without LPS anyway.
Well...We'll see.
I have no doubt of that. The Yggy is NOT your typical $3K DAC though wrt performance (unless you power it on, listen cold and put it back in the box).
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So, I was going to mention this in my review, the unit you and I have heard is version .96. There are new chokes and transformers and the production units will not take 6 hours to warm up :)
The Yggdrasil competes against $15-20k DACs very well. The MSRP of $2300 is a steal. It is a different category of component to the Pulse XFi. The XFi SE + LPS4 was not a comparable DAC to the Yggdrasil, but it was a great all in one desktop unit. I can't think of any other DAC/amp that I like better off the top of my head.
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I think the Xfi SE + LPS4's problem is that the Sabre DAC chip can't give the same tonal density as Yggdrasil. It was wonderfully transparent, clean, and tight, but too thin... so not as 3D as Yggy.
Even my TransDAC does better with tonal density than the Xfi DAC in that regards. But I totally can like that amp, since it somehow eliminated most of what I didn't like with Sabre DAC.
And you're right. The whole package is quite good, though... at $3K, I'm not sure if it's good enough? Maybe if they used R2R in there instead.
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The Yggdrasil competes against $15-20k DACs very well.
F@ck me, I am saving now.
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I haven't even heard the Yggy myself, but based on early impressions and what I know about the hardware and implementation alone, it would be priced much, much more from other companies and sounds like it will be an awesome DAC. I say good on Schiit for trying to price it under $3K.
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So, I was going to mention this in my review, the unit you and I have heard is version .96. There are new chokes and transformers and the production units will not take 6 hours to warm up :)
Among other things. ;) Still the proof will be in hearing the final production unit. I can think of 3-4 different prototypes from different companies that I've recommended in the past who's sonics changed significantly enough to me in production that I wish I hadn't said anything about. From now on I'm going to caveat the hell out of my prototype impressions if I say anything at all about them.
I think the Xfi SE + LPS4's problem is that the Sabre DAC chip can't give the same tonal density as Yggdrasil. It was wonderfully transparent, clean, and tight, but too thin... so not as 3D as Yggy.
Even my TransDAC does better with tonal density than the Xfi DAC in that regards. But I totally can like that amp, since it somehow eliminated most of what I didn't like with Sabre DAC.
Is this dynamics, punch and impact as a DAC only or headphone amp AIO? If it's just thin versus full as opposed to weight or heft, then I'd ask what filter was being used and whether you got to hear FRC versus TCM?
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Actually, I'm not sure whether it was FRM or TCM. I was so engrossed in the music that I forgot to check. The sound was very thin and tight... and yet smooth at the same time. It was smooth enough that I managed to notice harsh in only one track.
I suspect it's FRM... due to descriptions elsewhere on the net. But TCM would have to be audibly different from top to bottom, and still retain the clarity and speed just to match 90% of what the Yggy can do IMO. I think Yggy would still have a clear advantage as far as soundstage go.
All in all, I think the Geek Pulse was a pretty enjoyable device, but... to go up against Yggy is quite a monumental task IMO. Yggy sounded almost... unbelievable.
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REMOVAL???
Audio-GD Master 7.
Very good DAC with OR5 via i2s only. USB is too mediocre. Latest firmware improves USB's odd tonality (syrupy and strident). Too soft and resolving enough without band-aids. Basically, I didn't realize / forget about the fact that M7 does need a lot of band-aids, hence I would like to withdraw this item from the leaderboard.
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USB is so usbiquitous ( :)p7 ) these days, that I don't think a device that doesn't do it well direct should be on a recommended list --- unless it doesn't do it all, and is intended for the no-computer hifi stack.
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M7 is hard to place. Yeah, you can get it new, but the main chip needs to be in the old/OoP category. Tough call. Yggy may knock it out anyway. It may become clearer in the spring. Just put in an additional clause that it's better for headphones than speakers because of dynamics presentation.
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Tascam TH-02 should be on this list. It's $15 :-0
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Would it be convenient if we consider Sony MDR-EX1000? it remains the best dynamic, universal IEM in the market.
http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B0042BXSMU/
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Is the ex1000 still being made? We could put it on Out of Production.
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Is the ex1000 still being made? We could put it on Out of Production.
yes as of 2015 Feb in sony jp catalog http://www.sony.jp/products/catalog/AVacc_sou.pdf
but if not widely not available in US, then can list under OOP
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Well, I would definitely like to nominate the Sony NWZ-A17.
Have had it for like 3 weeks+ now and I absolutely love it. Excellent UI, GREAT battery life, technology correctly implemented and working (i.e. Bluetooth, NFC), haven't encountered ANY bugs yet, easy to use, very VERY light, and 'Ok' sounding.
Have been using it way more than my ZX-1 and my AK 100MK2... already selling the ZX-1 and will possibly sell my mk2 as well...
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Personally I'm not comfortable rec'ing a $300 dap with 'ok' sound based on feature set. Maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy that's used to 0.10c coffee.
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Personally I'm not comfortable rec'ing a $300 dap with 'ok' sound based on feature set. Maybe I'm just an old fuddy duddy that's used to 0.10c coffee.
Thing is, under 300, what is really out there with better battery life, features, UI, and "Ok" sound? (:p) The X1... no. Cowon players... no (unless you love the BBE enhancements which I do, but still, no NFC, no bluetooth, weird UIs if not based on their slow-ass android implementation, etc.). Hisound ... hell no! Sansa, errmm, I'm in the camp that believe they are "Ok" players especially once Rockboxed but, again, no contest in features, battery life and I do find the Sony's better sounding as well and let's not forget, 64gb internal and microSD support... so up to 192gb of space...
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I'm with gelocks. Feature set is outstanding + tiny form factor and better sound than meaningful competitors. Its not the best evar, but it made me realize how much I was avoiding portable music due to dissatisfaction with player options under $500. Oh, lets not forget about the FM RADIO!! Everything has compromises for price, and I think the a17 nails it with that in mind.
Also, anax, you can still get 5c coffee in Wall, SD... hell, I think its free for veterans.
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Thing is, under 300, what is really out there with better battery life, features, UI, and "Ok" sound? (:p) The X1... no. Cowon players... no (unless you love the BBE enhancements which I do, but still, no NFC, no bluetooth, weird UIs if not based on their slow-ass android implementation, etc.). Hisound ... hell no! Sansa, errmm, I'm in the camp that believe they are "Ok" players especially once Rockboxed but, again, no contest in features, battery life and I do find the Sony's better sounding as well and let's not forget, 64gb internal and microSD support... so up to 192gb of space...
hello,
the thing is that with the death of the iPod Classic, there seems to be a dearth of portable DAPs for say, listening to tunez on the Metro.
i, for one, would not want to risk carrying more than a kilo buck's worth of gear with me that i might lose one way or another.
mayhaps, a bang for the buck suggestion of a pocket-able system?
assuming of course that a dedicated music player is the desirable solution, not just a smartphone and a pair of ER•4PT
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It would be helpful if the descriptions of DAPs (and portable DACs) stated whether they hiss with more sensitive IEMs.
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I'm glad I listened to the Pirates and got a GO 450. Received it today and it's very nice for the price. I almost blew my fucking head off before updating the firmware though. Damn thing maxed out the volume on my PC.
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Downgraded HE-560 and Master 7 to * conditional recommendations.
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Downgraded HE-560 and Master 7 to * conditional recommendations.
Purrin, can you give me some more explaination on "conditional" level? Ie, did this mean 560 is recommended when set up right or something?
Thanks!
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Perhaps also a conditional recommendation for the GO 450 since it has so many issues. Mine is brand new and I'm already having problems. The LH forums are littered with people having issues too. It seems to play better with Windows as well. It does sound very good when working though.
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Perhaps also a conditional recommendation for the GO 450 since it has so many issues.
I second the motion. It won't play nice with IEMs and there are other issues.
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How DAPs and other appropriate gear works with iems would be great, yes.
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Not sure if any of you guys have heard them but I quite like the Soundmagic PL50 IEM's. Very comfortable, warm sound, decent detail levels and good price of around $70. I might compare them to the Carbo Tenore tonight and see how they go.
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Not sure if any of you guys have heard them but I quite like the Soundmagic PL50 IEM's. Very comfortable, warm sound, decent detail levels and good price of around $70.
It sounds thick to the point of being unclear. The cables are somewhat stiff with too much memory. The housings feel really cheap. The only thing it has going for it is a certain sweetness in the mids.
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I'm surprised to see the UE Reference Monitors on the leader board since my experience with them has not been a happy one. Sure fit and build quality is fine and parts of the sound is OK IMHO but bass is really not there. At least in mine. Mailed UE about that but they didn't think anything was wrong so maybe they agree, just suggested that I would buy another model. NO thanks.
Mine roll off the bass from about 80-100 Hz (subjective listening), hardly "reference quality". Mine need a lot of eq for everyday listening.
Is this in line with your experience? Is something wrong with mine?
cheers
Ferrum
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I'm surprised to see the UE Reference Monitors on the leader board since my experience with them has not been a happy one. Sure fit and build quality is fine and parts of the sound is OK IMHO but bass is really not there. At least in mine. Mailed UE about that but they didn't think anything was wrong so maybe they agree, just suggested that I would buy another model. NO thanks.
Mine roll off the bass from about 80-100 Hz (subjective listening), hardly "reference quality". Mine need a lot of eq for everyday listening.
Is this in line with your experience? Is something wrong with mine?
cheers
Ferrum
Nope. Kick drums sound accurate and that's around 60hz. Something is wrong with yours or your fit/seal is off. Do you have other customs to know what a proper fit should be like. You could have proper shells but bad impressions.
I'll have more to say about the UERM experience later.
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Or it simple could be different expectations. UERM tends to be leaner than most other IEMs I've used. What's your standard of neutral bass?
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No, sadly I don't have any more IEM's to compare with but isolation is fine and however hard I push them in seal doesn't change and I interpreted that as the seal should be Ok. Can I check something else?
As to reference in bass I use all kinds of Choir where male bass singers consistently take two steps back on the soundstage with these compared to my ATC monitors (pictures in my members presentation) or Focal Spirit headphones I bought to replace the UERM. Also checked against both Audeze LCD2 & 3 and they are maybe a step in the opposite direction. Choir simply isn't balanced in my view.
But the same apply with A Perfect Circle - the Noose or David Thomas Peacock - Retribution or Elenor MCEvoy - I got you to see me through, all tracks contain a fair amount of deep bass that are clearly reduced in level.
Do they want a higher output impedance from the amp? Could that be it?
cheers
Ferrum
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I've definitely found the UERM to benefit from a little more voltage swing. What are you driving them from? The UERM sounds like shit out of my Sony players (F887 and A17) straight out of the HP out. My portable reference is much better with regard to bass response, Geek Out 450 > Leckerton UHA-6s MKII.
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Slighter higher impedance amps of a few ohms may do the trick for you. The reference for UERMs were the Yamaha NS10s. Those monitors were kinda bright and people put toilet paper over the tweeters. The FSP are bassy compared ot the UERMs.
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Thanks guys
So what I'm hearing is true since the NS10 have no real bass, ie NOT neutral. Natural music or choir do contain bass so maybe a slight rewording could be considered? Something like Since they are based on the Yamaha NS10, very close to their voicing, therefore match with appropriate gear. One of the most coherent and together sounding multi-driver CIEMs. Every other founding pyrate owns this.
Ferrum
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Thanks guys
So what I'm hearing is true since the NS10 have no real bass, ie NOT neutral. Natural music or choir do contain bass so maybe a slight rewording could be considered? Something like Since they are based on the Yamaha NS10, very close to their voicing, therefore match with appropriate gear. One of the most coherent and together sounding multi-driver CIEMs. Every other founding pyrate owns this.
Ferrum
I think your vocabulary is off wrt 'neutral' 'real bass' etc. The idea that the UERMs have no real bass or has 'severe' roll off after 100hz is absurd. I'm wondering if you are simply used to more elevated bass than neutral or you listen at low volumes for your hrtf out of a weak amp or dap?
If THX speakers might be neutral to you, then our reference curves are simply different.
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THX speakers?? I haven't referred to any THX speakers. My private speakers were ATC SCM100 ASL, a pro monitor in my view.
http://www.atcloudspeakers.co.uk/professional/loudspeakers/scm100asl-pro/
But lets drop it and have beer instead next time we meet.
cheers
Ferrum
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Beer's cool and all but that doesn't tell us anything about your sources, amps, listening voluem and hrtf wrt the UERM.
If you suspect a severe roll-off below 100hz and UE disagrees tell them to provide you with a measurement. Simple fact is you happen to be in the minority of people that would consider them bass light relative to neutral so it would be nice to know what's going on with the unit you are hearing. Certainly for some folks who might be more accustomed to a room gain effect with some loudspeakers the UERM could seem bass light I suppose.
Is this neutral reference bass to you?
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FocalSpiritProfessional.pdf
If so I suspect your upstream might favor the leaner side as a possibility or you might just prefer an extra +5dB in the low bass region.
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To be fair, the uerm does have some bass roll-off. I found it had a nice amount of bass, generally, though. The sub-bass extension wasn't fantastic, so not exactly neutral in the bass. A great sound, overall, no question.
In terms of sub-bass, I may have mentioned before that Dr. John Moulton of Noble Audio cited some research showing a little extra sub-bass sounds more natural to listeners, this may be exactly what Anax is referring to.
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To be fair, the uerm does have some bass roll-off. I found it had a nice amount of bass, generally, though. The sub-bass extension wasn't fantastic, so not exactly neutral in the bass. A great sound, overall, no question.
In terms of sub-bass, I may have mentioned before that Dr. John Moulton of Noble Audio cited some research showing a little extra sub-bass sounds more natural to listeners, this may be exactly what Anax is referring to.
Right. Nothing severe from 100hz. Kick drums sound perfectly fine without needing 'lots of EQ'. If the FSP is neutral it measures and sounds about 5-10dB over from 100hz from what I'd call reference.
Lots of EQ from 100hz sounds like something is broken or he's listening to a DBA-02.
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To be fair, the uerm does have some bass roll-off. I found it had a nice amount of bass, generally, though. The sub-bass extension wasn't fantastic, so not exactly neutral in the bass. A great sound, overall, no question.
In terms of sub-bass, I may have mentioned before that Dr. John Moulton of Noble Audio cited some research showing a little extra sub-bass sounds more natural to listeners, this may be exactly what Anax is referring to.
Room gain and room modes. Room modes = especially if small enclosed room. Also keep in mind target responses (like the B&K) at listening positions. I don't EQ speakers for flat response in a room and a little sub-bass doesn't hurt either.
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I just got my UERMs and am quite shocked about the bass, there is certainly more mid bass than I was expecting although I last demoed the universal version 1.5 years ago so maybe my memory failed me or I never sealed quite right. That being said while I find the mid bass slightly boosted with a natural and solid level of impact, things start to get a little lean at 50-60Hz and roll of beyond there. My Hidition Viento-R have less mid bass but actually grow towards 20Hz and is a Much more realistic feeling. All this being said I can't fathom how one sees these as bass light unless the bass drivers are switched off!
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Wonder if the FSP shows some beyerisque qc issues (box of chocolates), since there's no way that I've heard a 5-10 db increase in bass relative to >400Hz, as innerfidelity's graph suggests.. Paradox, HD650 and even the K702 ani (now that I picked it up) show more response regardless of music material. Hmm...
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I just got my UERMs and am quite shocked about the bass, there is certainly more mid bass than I was expecting although I last demoed the universal version 1.5 years ago so maybe my memory failed me or I never sealed quite right. That being said while I find the mid bass slightly boosted with a natural and solid level of impact, things start to get a little lean at 50-60Hz and roll of beyond there. My Hidition Viento-R have less mid bass but actually grow towards 20Hz and is a Much more realistic feeling. All this being said I can't fathom how one sees these as bass light unless the bass drivers are switched off!
I agree with this from my experience. YMMV.
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Wonder if the FSP shows some beyerisque qc issues (box of chocolates), since there's no way that I've heard a 5-10 db increase in bass relative to >400Hz, as innerfidelity's graph suggests.. Paradox, HD650 and even the K702 ani (now that I picked it up) show more response regardless of music material. Hmm...
I think there were revisions with the eaarlier units being warmer and bassier (modelled after the 650 with a warmer slant). Tyll can correct me if my memory is failing me.
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I agree with this from my experience. YMMV.
Yup yup
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Some people have an ear for that below 60 or 50 Hertz audio region.
When I had more closed headphones, the ones with good sub-bass and overall balance were a joy to listen to. Then I would switch to my AKG and the first few minutes I would miss that low end impact and definition. I still have my bass-head headphone for that reason.
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Anyone think the K7XX may be vying with the DT880 for a place on the leaderboard?
Need a little more time with it, but the DT880 is too hot in the treble at times.
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I think there were revisions with the eaarlier units being warmer and bassier (modelled after the 650 with a warmer slant). Tyll can correct me if my memory is failing me.
Thanks. This would explain some things... I've only heard my pair (my friend has another one, should visit him) of FSP and one of Spirit Classic. The Classic was very different. I would say much bassier overall, a clear warm tilt, not as resolving either... I would rather correlate that experience with Tyll's measurements.
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Unless I missed it, it looks like the least expensive closed can on the Leaderboard is the Focal Spirit Pro. I think it would be nice to have an additional closed can in there for the $150-$200 price point, or thereabouts. Is there something worthy in that range? Perhaps ATH m50(x), Shure SRH840, others, Bueller, Bueller...
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Unless I missed it, it looks like the least expensive closed can on the Leaderboard is the Focal Spirit Pro. I think it would be nice to have an additional closed can in there for the $150-$200 price point, or thereabouts. Is there something worthy in that range? Perhaps ATH m50(x), Shure SRH840, others, Bueller, Bueller...
I really like my srh840, its a simple cheap and good sounding headphone
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I really like my srh840, its a simple cheap and good sounding headphone
I certainly prefer it to the M50.
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Unless I missed it, it looks like the least expensive closed can on the Leaderboard is the Focal Spirit Pro. I think it would be nice to have an additional closed can in there for the $150-$200 price point, or thereabouts. Is there something worthy in that range? Perhaps ATH m50(x), Shure SRH840, others, Bueller, Bueller...
There is one: XPT100 / HM5 / FA003 (original version, not Ti). I agree with the description, and it can be tuned with simple mods.
See also: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2013.0.html (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2013.0.html)
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SRH840 is superior to the M50, but is still wasn't a strong headphone. It's been a while since I've owned it, but I remember it sounding artificial and shouty to me, which is why I quickly got rid of it.
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Anyone think the K7XX may be vying with the DT880 for a place on the leaderboard?
Need a little more time with it, but the DT880 is too hot in the treble at times.
Initial comparisons were done with the Magni2U as the amp, on the Bottlehead Crack the DT880 is another animal. However, it is hard to compare the 7XX on the Crack because of the impedance mismatch.. Regardless, the DT880+Crack is better than the 7XX+Magni2U.. for whatever that's worth.
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SRH840 is superior to the M50, but is still wasn't a strong headphone. It's been a while since I've owned it, but I remember it sounding artificial and shouty to me, which is why I quickly got rid of it.
Yeah, I felt the same way about the mids. And the treble peaks didn't help. The Takstar Pro80 sounds better to me for like half the price
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Nominating two:
- AKG K7XX: less wonky than Q701, not lean and cold like K701. Not perfect, but at $200 a fantastic alternative to HD600 doing some things better and others things worse.
- Mad Dogs: dark tonality akin to Audezes, but price isn't bad at all.
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I preferred the Mad Dog Pro to the regular Mad Dog. Can't really pinpoint why. :-S
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I liked MadDog Pro better than MadDog too.
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MD Pro does use the new baffle, so that probably brings some improvements to the table. But regular MD is a good deal too at $300. Treble can be a bit rough and peaky despite overall dark nature, but not bad overall (maybe Pro is better in this regard?). I still keep mine around for a reason.
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how much more does the MD Pro run?
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399
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I don't hear any endorsements of the MadDogs or MadDog Pros?
K7XX was discussed before - I think it belongs b/c it's $200.
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I'll second the Mad Dogs, although I haven't heard them in a while. A respectable dark sound from what I remember.
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Agree with the K7XX. In certain systems it outperforms the DT880/600ohm, and only for $200 brand new. A DT880/600ohm used goes for $225. It's been too long since I've heard an HD600 so I can't comment on that.
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Nominating two:
- AKG K7XX: less wonky than Q701, not lean and cold like K701. Not perfect, but at $200 a fantastic alternative to HD600 doing some things better and others things worse.
- Mad Dogs: dark tonality akin to Audezes, but price isn't bad at all.
Add the AKG K500/501 if you want an alternative to the AKG K7XX-series. They are not as plentiful as a few years back.
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I'll second the Mad Dogs, although I haven't heard them in a while. A respectable dark sound from what I remember.
They are $300 no? If they were $260, would be a shoe in... any others want to chime in?
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In my brief time of owing them, the Mad Dogs were a bit too dark for me, to the point of smearing over a significant amount of detail. It may have been the tuning though.. given he had like 400 versions (1.0, 2.0, 2.5, 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, etc...).
Haven't heard the Pros.
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I meant my post as a MD endorsement, sorry.
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Nominating two:
- AKG K7XX: less wonky than Q701, not lean and cold like K701. Not perfect, but at $200 a fantastic alternative to HD600 doing some things better and others things worse.
- Mad Dogs: dark tonality akin to Audezes, but price isn't bad at all.
The k7XX is an open can, yes? I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't go up there, but I was hoping to see a closed can nominated at the price...
Edit: Maybe the closed cans are too iffy at that price to be leaderboard candidates?
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How does the MD compare to the Slant?
I wasn't too taken with my MD + Vali pairing.
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IMO Slant has more of an emphasis centered around 40Hz-400Hz where as MD pushes that down a bit into the lower bass and in general has more of a darker tilt or perhaps more U-shaped. Think Slant sounding thicker/more woolly in comparison because of that particular emphasis. Slant has larger soundstage, more air, and generally sounds smoother. MD can get a bit congested sounding and is less pleasing in the upper treble than the Slant. In general I like how the MD has the bass and low-mids tuned vs. the Slant but would say I preferred the Slant in basically every other regard. I'm probably more just a regular Paradox guy. LFF's T50RP mods are the most refined I've heard yet. If you find the treble a bit rough on the MD like I did, front damping tweaks can alleviate this.
Also, IME, I wasn't crazy about the Vali paired with most orthos.
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Owned the Mad Dogs, loved the Mad Dogs.
I did like the 'original' Alpha Dogs better though. But at $300 for the MDs (less used), I think they are a good buy especially compared to A LOT of what's out there at the price range. And speaking of $300 headphones, the Sony MDR-1A BETTER than the MDR-1R!!! Just thought I'd say that because I would actually pick the Sony's over the Mad Dogs... ;)
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1R are not so good. Did you say 1A is bettar? When did 1A come out? Still a Sony fanboy at heart.
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FOR CONSIDERATION (still debating)
V-Moda M-80
Is it still being debated? I ask because I wondering what's best for the plane or the train. Has to be closed, of course, compact size, and comfortable to wear for long boring hours when everything and everything irritates.
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If the V-Moda M80 is under consideration, the XS should replace it. Better isolation and higher sensitivity. Similar sound though the XS has a smoother response. Both have similar distortion in the bass (really can't expect much from a small on-ear) and upper mids. Good comfort and decent isolation if it fits your ears. Minus points because the cups don't swivel on the vertical axis which could cause fitment issues for some, but the super-compactness, durability and case are a big plus for portable use.
I had the Mad Dogs for a while and was kinda underwhelmed. The pads are nice, but beyond that they didn't feel like much beyond a good DIY T50rp mod. Those pads are something like a $100 though right? So I guess factoring that in the Mad Dog is a good value.
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Is it still being debated? I ask because I wondering what's best for the plane or the train. Has to be closed, of course, compact size, and comfortable to wear for long boring hours when everything and everything irritates.
DT1350 has better isolation, and would still be my nomination over the M80s.
As for comfort, that varies by user. I could wear mine for days. Other people can't last 5 minutes...
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DT1350 has better isolation, and would still be my nomination over the M80s.
As for comfort, that varies by user. I could wear mine for days. Other people can't last 5 minutes...
All on ears have pretty crap comfort really (especially if you're a glasses wearer).
That being said, the M80's are not great for high noise commuting. They have vents that let in wind, train, and plane noise. The vents are useful when you're walking in a high pedestrian-automotive environment, but not so much otherwise.
IEMs, a DT1350, or a set of over ear noise cancelers (QC15/25) are still going to be the best bet for those situations.
If the V-Moda M80 is under consideration, the XS should replace it. Better isolation and higher sensitivity. Similar sound though the XS has a smoother response. Both have similar distortion in the bass (really can't expect much from a small on-ear) and upper mids. Good comfort and decent isolation if it fits your ears. Minus points because the cups don't swivel on the vertical axis which could cause fitment issues for some, but the super-compactness, durability and case are a big plus for portable use.
The XS is definitely an upgrade across the board - but I think that part of the reason the M-80's were up for contention at all was that their price has dropped so substantially. The XS is still really holding reasonably firm on it's price both new and aftermarket.
The DT1350 is a sonic upgrade over the XS and the M-80, especially in detail extraction and bass extension/quality. But, like the XS, it has held it's value a bit too well. DT1350 also has the chocolate-box Bayer issue too, where you never know what flavor of Whitman's Sampler you pulled until after you try them.
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The DT1350 is a sonic upgrade over the XS and the M-80, especially in detail extraction and bass extension/quality. But, like the XS, it has held it's value a bit too well. DT1350 also has the chocolate-box Bayer issue too, where you never know what flavor of Whitman's Sampler you pulled until after you try them.
You can get the 1350s dirt-cheap on the used market these days, but I don't know if that should be taken into consideration.
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You can get the 1350s dirt-cheap on the used market these days, but I don't know if that should be taken into consideration.
Cheapest DT1350 I've seen in over a year was the one I sold to Ringingears in November. (And it should be the best deal, sold it to a pirate!) Prior to that, lowest price has been the $140 sale at Cowboom in January 2014. To find it lower than that, you have to go back to 2012. (Camelcamelcamel places the lowest ever for Amazon at $100, but that was for one day third party sale in 2013. 3rd party used price average for Amazon is $189.00.)
Lowest price for an M-80 was the $40 deal from Radioshack deal in September 2013. That was a statistical outlier, but these days the M-80 floats on the used market at $50-60.
$140-150 vs $50-60 used is a pretty substantial difference at this price point.
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I own the thinksound on1 and found them avobe average in portability, isolation, comfort, detail extraction and dynamics. Stock they are very bassy and a bit rough in the treble which works in noisy environments. Modded they trade blows with the dt250-250 and my modded t50rp; some things worse, some things better.
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Wow I had no idea the M-80 was going that cheap. I can barely keep track of all the nutty US pricing.
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So, out of the snazzy-looking V-Modas (travel with ear bling) the extra cost for the XS.
DT1350 is getting a bit too expensive. The trouble is that I am not a frequent traveller (it's per year, and I actually haven't been anywhere for the past one) and I've already pitched in to this at more than I can afford.
I'm telling myself (one always looks for justification!) that a decent pair of closed phones could be worth owning anyway. I should take this to another thread, where the question can be me-centric, rather than leaderboard best-buy-for-travel-centric....
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1R are not so good. Did you say 1A is bettar? When did 1A come out? Still a Sony fanboy at heart.
I think you had the same issues as me with regards to not liking the 1R at higher volumes. Not weird upper midrange stuff on the 1A. I think the MDR-1A was released at the end of last year.
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All on ears have pretty crap comfort really (especially if you're a glasses wearer).
The XS is definitely an upgrade across the board -................................................
+1. I used the XS exclusively on the move and found it extremely useful in the gym...until my daughter decided she liked it better and literally snatched it from me... You just can't beat its portability.
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hello,
+1 for the XS.
they were a holiday prezzy for the GYTW. (she breaks EVERYTHING.) however she now gets the notion that certain cans are for certain uses and is happy with the sound. and i'm happy with their build quality and portability. :)
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Can we have a heading on the leaderboard, condensing this useful stuff under headphones for travel?
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Does anyone like the Creative Aurvana Live! as a relatively cheap closed can? $75 on Amazon. I have a pair and they seem ok. Not really sure if they are recommendation-worthy though.
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Does anyone like the Creative Aurvana Live! as a relatively cheap closed can? $75 on Amazon. I have a pair and they seem ok. Not really sure if they are recommendation-worthy though.
Just got a set in from a fellow pirate to add to the cheapo headphone comparo. Stay tuned.
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IMO they're good budget, portable headphones. Responds well to basic damping mods without a real need to swap out the pads. Helps fix up some of the stock weirdness. Falls apart at high volumes.
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Haven't heard it in nearly a decade, but the Denon D1001K, which is a clone of the CAL!, was my first ever headphone purchase. Can't speak to it sonically, but it's got a special place in my heart
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Interested in Anax opinions on them. By the way guys, I will go to the US next year so stay tuned to my ill behavior that may surpass the anax infamy bwahahahaha. Looking forward to drinking with you fuckers for the first time finally!
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Not sure if anyone wants to know but I happen to have the Etymotic ER4S and the Schiit Vali.
Here are my thoughts:
I have been using a rather neutral portable amp (Tralucent T1) before the Vali. Being my first tube and desktop amp, it was quite an experience listening to the same songs. I have to say that they pair very well because of their sonic characteristics. The Vali expands the lower end to make it sound a little fuller.
One thing that bothers me a little is the barely audible noise floor.
I would definitely recommend the Vali. I just received them and they already sound good. Not sure if I will hear a difference as it burns in.
Personally I'm more used to a neutral sound signature. Listening to the Vali makes the ER4S sound a touch warmer and fuller, which is different and would take some time to get used to. It is not as tiring to listen to songs with the harsh treble.
Lastly, I feel that the jump between portable and desktop amplifiers is huge. Or maybe it's just the Vali being competent for its price range.
Thanks for reading!
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I never thought of using ER4S with Vali because it's an IEM but it should work fine given the high impedance. So thanks for mentioning that idea. I'll give it a try.
Update: This is a winner. Piano notes sound more rounded and have more presence. The texture of sometimes troublesome strings is somewhat smoother. The soundstage is definitely airier and maybe a bit wider.
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+1 for the Ety ER4 (S or P with 70ohm adapter)
I've burn thru many IEMs over the years but kept (and use) the ER4P. For newer music that tends to be mastered to compensate for the bass impaired (Adele?) these are just wonderful. And as I like listening to podcasts (mostly speaking voice) the Etys are excellent. Also best isolation without custom fittings (although comfort is an acquired thing with the accompanied tips).
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Is the Koss KSC 75 still a good throwaway to get?
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Is the Koss KSC 75 still a good throwaway to get?
It is one of the best value-for-money keepers and gifts.
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It is one of the best value-for-money keepers and gifts.
Absolutely. Bought one for a friend as a gift. He likes them better than his Carbo Tenore IEM's. Make sure you get one for yourself.
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For those of you who use the Geekout 450 as a portable, does it need a separate battery pack to run out of a phone (I use Galaxy S4)?
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For those of you who use the Geekout 450 as a portable, does it need a separate battery pack to run out of a phone (I use Galaxy S4)?
My Moto G doesn't support USB OTG, but it powers up the 450 easily bright lights and all.
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Is the Koss KSC 75 still a good throwaway to get?
I'd probably go for a Sportapro since they have KSC35 drivers, and a parts express headband. But yeah KSC75 is still a good buy.
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the sportapro is better IMO as well. more balanced without being bloated like the portapro. The sound sits perfectly in between the portapro and the ksc-75 in tonality.
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My Moto G doesn't support USB OTG, but it powers up the 450 easily bright lights and all.
I got 450 to work with the latest Android Lollipop. However using UAPP the music would stutter and glitch at times. What UAPP settings would make it run smoothly?
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I got 450 to work with the latest Android Lollipop. However using UAPP the music would stutter and glitch at times. What UAPP settings would make it run smoothly?
Shoot zerodeefex a pm if he doesn't see this. He's our phone guru. I'm not even on Lollipop yet.
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For those of you who use the Geekout 450 as a portable, does it need a separate battery pack to run out of a phone (I use Galaxy S4)?
As far as I could tell from browsing HF and LHlabs forums, no one has gotten the GO to work on the Galaxy S4. I have a Micro USB OTG cable coming in the mail tomorrow so I can try my GO 450 with my S4. I can post my results here if you like.
UPDATE:
My S4 will powered the GO 450 without a separate battery (but it will drain your phone battery pretty quickly). However, I had to use the USB Audio Player Pro (trial) app in order to get anything to play through the GO. I'm running Lollipop if that helps anything.
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As far as I could tell from browsing HF and LHlabs forums, no one has gotten the GO to work on the Galaxy S4. I have a Micro USB OTG cable coming in the mail tomorrow so I can try my GO 450 with my S4. I can post my results here if you like.
UPDATE:
My S4 will powered the GO 450 without a separate battery (but it will drain your phone battery pretty quickly). However, I had to use the USB Audio Player Pro (trial) app in order to get anything to play through the GO. I'm running Lollipop if that helps anything.
Did you have any stuttering with the GO450 on S4 and UAPP? My GO runs on that combo too, but it doesn't run smoothly all the time which is why I'm probably going to sell it. If you could share your UAPP settings that would be appreciated. I suspect it could be it's getting inconsistent power from the S4. I'm crossing my fingers that the v2+ works well with Android as it's advertised.
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Did you have any stuttering with the GO450 on S4 and UAPP? My GO runs on that combo too, but it doesn't run smoothly all the time which is why I'm probably going to sell it. If you could share your UAPP settings that would be appreciated. I suspect it could be it's getting inconsistent power from the S4. I'm crossing my fingers that the v2+ works well with Android as it's advertised.
I haven't heard any stuttering yet. I only listened for a bit more than 10 minutes though (my phone battery was low). I'll give it a little more time. I don't see that I have any special settings. All I did was enable the volume buttons for my phone. Nothing in the settings menu is checked outside of User Interface and Volume settings.
EDIT: This (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009Z6A0KA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) is the cable I'm using. Also maybe this (http://www.extreamsd.com/USBAudioRecorderPRO/) page will be helpful?
EDIT 2: I finished the trial period, uninstalled and reinstalled the amp, and finished a second trial. I still didn't experience any stuttering. Not while surfing the web, playing a mobile game, or with the screen off and locked.
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Hello. Any suggestions for closed circumaural headphones with solid, tight/speedy bass?
For instance, I have Denon D5000 (it's a Denon D2000 with stock D5000 cups - as far as I know the driver is the same) which has bass and subbass which isn't very well defined. My Sennheiser HD250 II is a bit tighter, but I don't find them the most comfortable and they are quite sibilant at times. The Denon D2000 was pretty great in this regard, but the treble was too much, which is why I opted for the D5000 cups.
Second thing is that I'm using a Leckerton UHA760 with the inbuilt USB DAC. On the first page, the UHA-6S is listed as having an inbuilt DAC that is not great. Does this also apply to the UHA760? Any suggestions for a reasonably priced DAC, or DAC/amp combo that could be considered up to scratch?
Best regards,
namaiki
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Hello. Any suggestions for closed circumaural headphones with solid, tight/speedy bass?
For instance, I have Denon D5000 (it's a Denon D2000 with stock D5000 cups - as far as I know the driver is the same) which has bass and subbass which isn't very well defined. My Sennheiser HD250 II is a bit tighter, but I don't find them the most comfortable and they are quite sibilant at times. The Denon D2000 was pretty great in this regard, but the treble was too much, which is why I opted for the D5000 cups.
Second thing is that I'm using a Leckerton UHA760 with the inbuilt USB DAC. On the first page, the UHA-6S is listed as having an inbuilt DAC that is not great. Does this also apply to the UHA760? Any suggestions for a reasonably priced DAC, or DAC/amp combo that could be considered up to scratch?
Best regards,
namaiki
If I am correct the D5000 and the HD250 II should be easy to drive. Are you a loud volume listener, in between or low volume listener?
I ask because in the past I found the HD250 II very easy to drive and I used to listen at low volumes. Even then though the HD250 II could bring out quite some details from the highs.
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Hello Deep Funk. I'm probably a loud volume listener. The Leckerton UHA760 drives both fine on low gain, though sometimes for the HD250 II I bring the UHA760 to medium gain because I've maxed out the volume at low gain.
Best regards,
namaiki
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Will the board be updated to reflect some of the more recent releases like the Yggy, replacing the Master 7 and such?
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Hello Deep Funk. I'm probably a loud volume listener. The Leckerton UHA760 drives both fine on low gain, though sometimes for the HD250 II I bring the UHA760 to medium gain because I've maxed out the volume at low gain.
Best regards,
namaiki
It is a closed headphone so the highs can become annoying at higher volumes. If you like listening at higher volumes have you considered semi-open headphones?
Philips has a few nice headphones that allow higher listening volumes due to the semi-open or open constructions while still giving you plenty of bass. An AKG K240 Monitor could do the trick too. 600 Ohms and semi-open so it likes the extra gain.
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Second thing is that I'm using a Leckerton UHA760 with the inbuilt USB DAC. On the first page, the UHA-6S is listed as having an inbuilt DAC that is not great. Does this also apply to the UHA760? Any suggestions for a reasonably priced DAC, or DAC/amp combo that could be considered up to scratch?
No, the 760 has a much better DAC than the 6Smk2. Though something like the GO450 or v2 will offer notable improvements as DACs. However, the amp sounds a little bit worse than the 6S due to how the digital pot is implemented. The more you crank the 760 volume the better the amp will sound compared to the 6S. Running the 760 at max and volume matching it with the 6S reveals they sound the same, ergo the digital pot is the limiting factor.
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Even though they are going away, I will place a vote for the Mad Dogs. I never found the highs to be rough at all, but I am running a rather smooth sounding linux box, deadbeef player and Lake People G109s amp. The HRT II+ dac is also rather warm. Where I think it needs most help is in the 3-4k or so range. Needs a bump there to bring upper mids a bit more forward.
At its last regular price point, I think it is amongst the most comfortable and better sounding available. Not perfect by any means but very likable if you like a more laid back signature. Gets the leading edge mostly right.
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Hello again. I actually had quite a good listening session with the Sennheiser HD250 and UHA760 last night on low gain with the volume knob higher rather than on medium gain and the volume knob lower. They sound very clear and lifelike. I assume they must have quite a fast decay. At least Faster than my "D5000." I might try the D2000 cups again for less warm sound and see if I can tolerate the treble or listen with a lower volume. That should make a sound closer to the HD250 which I really do like but maybe more comfortable.
I'm not sure what makes the HD250 sound so great. Is it the impulse response? Huge spike and settles reasonably quickly.
I suppose I will try the Geek Out 450 or maybe even the 1000 if I find a good price here in Australia.
I'm not too sure about the AKG K240M. From what I have read it might not be able to provide the bass extension or subbass rumble that I crave.
I'm not too sure about the mad dogs. Distortion figures from innerfidelity are just too inconsistent. And the T50rp driver always seems to measure with that random distortion in the midrange.
Best regards,
namaiki
May 25 edit: I tried the Denon D2000 cups again. It just sounds thin. The Sennheiser HD250 sounds more lifelike and interesting. The Denon "D5000" however is very good for general listening though. Its warmth does good in other ways.
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The HD250 II is one of those unique headphones that was made in the experimental time the K1000 came out. Diffuse field technology and special drivers for headphones were introduced. There is one AKG that is very similar and that is the AKG K240 DF.
What makes the HD250 II the headphone it is you have to ask the engineers behind it. See this thread: http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=564.0
If you really like the HD250 II cherish it. The next best thing is in the HD800 league and (semi-)vintage headphones do not come better than a mint HD250 II. Consider it the KSC75 that turned into Hulk and smashed Loki on a stroll through town.
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We should replace the ZX1 with the AK Jr. if we are going to have mediocre high priced DAPs with good build and UI on here.
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Is the AK Jr. better enough to dismiss the loss in battery life?
Still not liking the touch screen operation. Might have to go the A17 route..
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I can't answer a sonics versus battery life question....
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Is the AK Jr. better enough to dismiss the loss in battery life?
Still not liking the touch screen operation. Might have to go the A17 route..
Jr runs two full days without problem for me. Sonic wise A17 gets completely raped. UI are same sluggish.
But whatever, it's your money.
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Two full days, as in close to 20 hours? I quite often spend times without access to mains outlet for many consecutive days, that's why I'm intrigued. Price wise they are very close, so obviously I have to make the call myself and sacrifice something.
Thanks.
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Two full days, as in close to 20 hours? I quite often spend times without access to mains outlet for many consecutive days, that's why I'm intrigued. Price wise they are very close, so obviously I have to make the call myself and sacrifice something.
Thanks.
I think when you are talking about multiple days of battery life and no access to outlets you should look at battery packs. It's not practical to expect a device that delivers top-notch performance AND has top-notch battery life. Doing things the "best" way is usually not the most efficient way.
http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-usb-battery-pack-travel/
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Yeah I've got one of those... The multiple days may be on a skate- or snowboard and every gram off my pockets or the 10L backpack is welcome though, but on the other hand if I were that tight on space/weight I would probably let the better quality DAP go first :)
I'm overanalyzing. I'll wait till I get the customs and see what I'm missing or where I can go then. Thanks for the input anyways.
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For the Planar Headphone list, do you think the Oppo PM-3 should be considered? I think it is a great sounding headphone for the price, especially being Planar Magnetic. Great build quality and while not completely neutral, they sound natural to me - at least with my setup (Bifrost Uber, Valhalla 2). hans measurements for the PM-3 look good as well for their price point, and as hans said, I think Oppo hit their targeted audience with these, and while some find them to be bass heavy, I don't hear that on my setup. I think the bass sounds great (I actually would prefer MORE bass out of them), but the bass is natural sounding to me on my setup.
I think the Oppo Pm-3 should be considered on the list for Planar Magnetic headphones, especially at their price-point.
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Haven't heard the PM3 yet, but hear positive things. I can tell you for sure the HE400S will be on the leaderboard. Unless it gets retuned somehow. For $299 it's a no brainer unless you want a HD600/650.
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PM3 gets no rebuttal from me, I think it's Oppo's best headphone.
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Haven't heard the PM3 yet, but hear positive things. I can tell you for sure the HE400S will be on the leaderboard. Unless it gets retuned somehow. For $299 it's a no brainer unless you want a HD600/650.
hello,
this is very good to hear!
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PM3 gets no rebuttal from me, I think it's Oppo's best headphone.
PM-3 is in. Craig likes it. A bit fun bassy, but I think it deserves to be there. Great comfort, great form factor, good price.
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PM-3 is in. Craig likes it. A bit fun bassy, but I think it deserves to be there. Great comfort, great form factor, good price.
which matey is scheduled for the HE-400S and could that bump out the PM-3 from the leaderboard?
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New consideration: Cavalli Liquid Crimson. Either in place of the Liquid Glass or not. I've had it for about a month now and I think it kicks some serious ass. No blatant flaws and the presentation is spot on. Best pairing I've heard with the Slants. Killer form factor, priced a bit high but for this quality of build and casing I can't think of a reason not to have it on this list.
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PM-3 is in. Craig likes it. A bit fun bassy, but I think it deserves to be there. Great comfort, great form factor, good price.
How big are they in real life? Much larger than the circumaural portables like the momentum?
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If you've worn an M50 before, they're about that size, but slightly deeper and the pads breathe easier.
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Ever perplexed on this PM3 craze...
Bass was loud, unrefined, round (not at all punchy or fun), completely atonal and not to mention dismissing very basic information. Even though everything else was ok, it made them sound very low- mid-fi-ish.. Am more and more starting to doubt my amp/source gear.
That's it, going to the shop today with my Lecks. We'll see if it's just a faulty unit they have for demo.
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What headphones do you come from as reference?
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Say bass from M4U2 (with or without NC) is much more palpable and easier to "tab".
Anyway, I have to partly eat my words. Be it the UHA-6 or just its low output impedance, it does open these up and not even that marginally (I think it was Marv that pointed out that low output Z is a prerequisite). That's right, I did buy them in the end. :)p8
The bass clarity on the PSB's is simply astounding though, so it's difficult to beat those. In all other regards these shred those or the Spirit Pros to smithereens.
Overall I like the inoffencive signature, effortless presentation and never piercing treble, which the Focals sometimes portrayed, but not badly. I thought I would never be commenting on staging qualities, but these are a bit closed in vs. the SP for instance. If the bass was better, these would be winners. Most of the info is there, but you just sort of have to focus on it to make out the pieces. The only poor quality of these..
What won me over though is the overall form factor. They stay on my head whether biking or jumping on a skateboard in high speed. Pretty good for something not so light weight.
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Can't forget potential product variation on the PM-3:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/OppoPM3.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/OppoPM3.pdf)
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/OppoPM3SampleB.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/OppoPM3SampleB.pdf)
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/OppoPM3SampleC.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/OppoPM3SampleC.pdf)
Also it's very sensitive to fit and seal, so different shaped and sized heads and ears can absolutely affect how it sounds to the end user.
That said, I do really like the PM-3 for being stylish, portable, comfortable (yes, my ears are at least average sized and I am not a particularly small person), and relatively good sounding if you don't mind some extra bass and perhaps a bit of extra upper-mids/lower-treble. I definitely recommend them.
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Ever perplexed on this PM3 craze...
Bass was loud, unrefined, round (not at all punchy or fun), completely atonal and not to mention dismissing very basic information. Even though everything else was ok, it made them sound very low- mid-fi-ish.. Am more and more starting to doubt my amp/source gear.
That's it, going to the shop today with my Lecks. We'll see if it's just a faulty unit they have for demo.
Agreed. I'm guessing big variations in quality by the crazy differing opinions.
Edit: just saw the graphs above. I didn't like them, bass was bloated imo and overly so.
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That said, I do really like the PM-3 for being stylish, portable, comfortable (yes, my ears are at least average sized and I am not a particularly small person), and relatively good sounding if you don't mind some extra bass and perhaps a bit of extra upper-mids/lower-treble. I definitely recommend them.
Agreed +1
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No love for the Crimson :(
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I like the Crimson. Only heard it at meets though and haven't had a chance to run it through as the loaner unit got pulled temporarily. I just have no reference where to place it based on a meet impression were I was really focused on comparing headphones and not the amp itself.
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No love for the Crimson :(
I liked what I heard at Marv's place, but unfortunately Mr. Cavalli's loaner never got around to us.
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Kind of a bummer, but it looks like the sansa clip+ is being discontinued. The new sansa jam is based off the sansa sport.
Not really related, but are there any smartphone that are leaderboard worthy? For me a budget smartphone would be all the dap I'd need... If it sounded good enough!
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Kind of a bummer, but it looks like the sansa clip+ is being discontinued. The new sansa jam is based off the sansa sport.
Not really related, but are there any smartphone that are leaderboard worthy? For me a budget smartphone would be all the dap I'd need... If it sounded good enough!
Best older, budget smartphones I've used for that purpose are an OG Galaxy S Captivate and a Galaxy Note II. Both of them use WM solutions (WM8994 and WM1811 respectively).
- The Captivate is decent if you want to use it *exclusively* as a DAP. The single core snapdragon in it is too long in the tooth to do much else. Put CyanogenMod, Semaphore Kernel, and Voodoo Sound on it to get hardware access to the full power of the phone's amplifier. Use a lightweight player - Neutron, for example, will be frustratingly laggy and prone to frequent crashes.
- The Galaxy Note II is still solid hardware wise (other than it's screen) and can be used as a DAP, phone, and media device. The best part is: all Galaxy Note II's are identical hardware wise - all of them use the Samsung Exynos system on a chip regardless of if it's a U.S. or International model. The phone supports USB-OTG and has enough power to run an ODAC or a Geek Out 450. It can use a ton of other USB-OTG compatible hardware by use of USB Audio Player Pro. Get the latest release of CleanROM Ace for a completely carrier debloated experience and install a Perseus-based Kernel so you can get hardware access to the phone's amp with the application "Headphone Amp Control", available on the Google Play App Store.
If you're looking for an 'out of the box' solution that you can use for listening, the Note 4 sounds decent enough and has a 0.9 ohm output impedance. I've seen them go for around $400 used already - go go Android smartphone depreciation. That's what I use for my daily driver. Some iPhones are also decent enough if you don't require expandable SD storage.
All that being said, its probably not a good idea to stick smartphones on the leaderboard. Even the best ones are only marginally better than a Rockboxed Clip+/Zip...if really better at all.
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I don't quite understand why the HE-560 is on the board and the T1 isn't. The T1, while isn't the most resolving headphone, is just outstanding in the imaging department, with instruments and voices always placed and proportioned correctly. Plus being a semi-open design, it immediately 3-5dB lower noise floor in real world listening environment compare to the Hifiman design.
The imaging of the HE-560 is down right poor, with instruments all over the place. Where on earth, except car audio and being on stage, I should hear the vocalist and guitarist in front but with the drummer playing right behind/next to my seat? In stock form the HE-560 is just poor. Even my Alessandro MS2 would give better more correct imaging.
I have a HE-500 myself. It took the heavily angled Audeze Vegan pads + sticking 160 4mm half plastic beads to the baffle plates to bring the image forward.
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1) T1 had serious production variation - measured here. Some units came with two nasty peak bright treble drivers. Some units came with one nasty peak bright treble driver which didn't match the other one.
2) 880-600/250ohms is better than T1 for much less.
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Balance and product variations aside, the T1 is too crazy colored a phone in a bright way for me. HE-500 > T1 IMO.
In short, T1 was a brain fart. DT880-600/250 are proly the best Beyer has put out so far.
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I don't quite understand why the HE-560 is on the board and the T1 isn't. The T1, while isn't the most resolving headphone, is just outstanding in the imaging department, with instruments and voices always placed and proportioned correctly. Plus being a semi-open design, it immediately 3-5dB lower noise floor in real world listening environment compare to the Hifiman design.
The imaging of the HE-560 is down right poor, with instruments all over the place. Where on earth, except car audio and being on stage, I should hear the vocalist and guitarist in front but with the drummer playing right behind/next to my seat? In stock form the HE-560 is just poor. Even my Alessandro MS2 would give better more correct imaging.
I have a HE-500 myself. It took the heavily angled Audeze Vegan pads + sticking 160 4mm half plastic beads to the baffle plates to bring the image forward.
I use Hotel California a bunch for A/B (unfortunately) and never have heard the drummer behind my head on the 560. I would have remembered that. Like the old SM3 putting people on top of my head and underneath me. I remember some referring to the SM3 soundstage as being amazingly spherical. Uh-huh. That's amazing....
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1) T1 had serious production variation - measured here. Some units came with two nasty peak bright treble drivers. Some units came with one nasty peak bright treble driver which didn't match the other one.
2) 880-600/250ohms is better than T1 for much less.
Perhaps I am just lucky getting a good T1. I use EQ all the time thus treble peaks (of any headphones) does not bother me more than poor imaging.
The price of the 600ohm DT880 is never below £200 from Amazon UK, while one can often get the T1 from Japan online stores as low as Yen90,000. So the T1 is only about twice the cost of the DT880 600ohm but would image much better.
I guess I am the rare one who value imaging capability the highest.
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Balance and product variations aside, the T1 is too crazy colored a phone in a bright way for me. HE-500 > T1 IMO.
In short, T1 was a brain fart. DT880-600/250 are proly the best Beyer has put out so far.
At moderate volume level, the T1 is fine. I listen at volume no louder than my wife talking next to me (have to).
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I don't listen too loud often either (unless doing some evaluations or on special occations). Can hear my wife just fine with open cans.
The DT990 did not work for me, but they may work for you. Have you checked them out? They may be a little more open though.
It may also depend on your source. What are you using for amp and DAC?
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At moderate volume level, the T1 is fine. I listen at volume no louder than my wife talking next to me (have to).
Anax, OJ, and I listen at realistic concert levels (not to be confused with abusive / distorted concert levels). We don't grade gear according the lower levels on the Fletcher-Munson curve. Otherwise, the GS1000 and PS1000 would probably be tops on the Leaderboard.
Perhaps I am just lucky getting a good T1. I use EQ all the time thus treble peaks (of any headphones) does not bother me more than poor imaging.
I guess I am the rare one who value imaging capability the highest.
Abyss, K1K, HD800, MA100, SR009, Slants, a few others image better than T1. MA100 is less than $150, even less if you find a deal. MA100 is also more resolving and has smoother FR.
If you truly value imaging, you go speakers.
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I don't listen too loud often either (unless doing some evaluations or on special occations). Can hear my wife just fine with open cans.
The DT990 did not work for me, but they may work for you. Have you checked them out? They may be a little more open though.
It may also depend on your source. What
are you using for amp and DAC?
I don't listen too loud often either (unless doing some evaluations or on special occations). Can hear my wife just fine with open cans.
The DT990 did not work for me, but they may work for you. Have you checked them out? They may be a little more open though.
It may also depend on your source. What are you using for amp and DAC?
I use J River MC 20 -> Erato (not well known Chinese made) XMOS USB Interface -> 1st Gen no USB AGD NFB-1 (no love here) -> Phasetech EPA-007 -> T1
I always use the Voxango CurveEQ VST plugin in J River
I have never tried the DT990, mainly because I hate the bathroom drainage like grill cover... The DT990, especially the 600ohm one isn't popular in Hong Kong so I doubt I will have a chance to try it locally.
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You could try the DT990 Pro 250 ones that don't have the bathroom drainage cups. I think they like $200 right now in Amazon US.
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I usually listen fairly quietly and I'm not a big fan of the T1 either.
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I never thought the HE500 or HE560 were particularly good, but the T1 will never be on this leaderboard :boom: walk the plank2
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I usually listen fairly quietly and I'm not a big fan of the T1 either.
Why U no like imaging? :D
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I never thought the HE500 or HE560 were particularly good, but the T1 will never be on this leaderboard :boom: walk the plank2
More likely that Ronnie James Dio comes back from the dead.
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Anax, OJ, and I listen at realistic concert levels (not to be confused with abusive / distorted concert levels). We don't grade gear according the lower levels on the Fletcher-Munson curve. Otherwise, the GS1000 and PS1000 would probably be tops on the Leaderboard.
I see. But I still don't find the T1 particularly colored
I must admit I am not very sensitive to colored sounds except guitar and drums. Those are the only 2 acoustic instruments I hear every Sunday in church. The other live instruments I listen to are electronic piano/synthesizer -> DSP -> Class D amps -> cheap JBL speakers.
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I listen to are electronic piano/synthesizer -> DSP -> Class D amps -> cheap JBL speakers.
Ouch. That might explain it.
Check how much upper treble sensitivity you've lost m80 :))
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Another suggestion would be the HD800. IMO superior to anything Beyer if you are looking for imaging and resolution. (shit, just found out a few post ago these were already suggested among others... Oh well)
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The good T1's aren't bad. I've heard a few. Are they down to $399 now? We are still of the mindset that they are still going for $1000 as when they were first released.
I know they can be sold for $399. Some distributor in Asia was telling me they get them for $167 or something ridiculous at wholesale volume.
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A good T1 at $399 or less can be an interesting argument to make.
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Why U no like imaging? :D
I just looked up my notes from AXPONA listening to a T1 on a Woo prototype portable tube amp.
Mids recessed a bit?
Even with tubes still a bit metallic and sibilant.
Above average soundstage
so-so imaging
ringing not so bad
bit of bass bloom
Not terrible, but not 1K material. Google shopping isn't exactly the end-all-be-all of bargain hunting but I don't see them any cheaper than $1,017.
$399 might be a good price for one though.
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Another suggestion would be the HD800. IMO superior to anything Beyer if you are looking for imaging and resolution. (shit, just found out a few post ago these were already suggested among others... Oh well)
I actually chose the T1 over the HD800 when I made my last purchase, all because I know I will end up pouring much more money to keep scaling up the HD800. T1 is good for my purpose and keeping the budget in control... I know it does not make any sense for all you here.
FWIW I bought my T1 brand new for YEN83000 before shipping.
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MA100 is less than $150, even less if you find a deal. MA100 is also more resolving and has smoother FR.
I find the MA900 too mellow sounding. I tried that once in Yodobashi Japan when it was sold at Yen15000. May be I should try that again when I got my Black Widow.
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Add a good DT1350. A few issues are holding it back but otherwise it was almost the portable headphone to rule them all. I can also personally suggest the DT250-250 as a serious alternative to the HD598/600/650.
Vintage Beyerdynamic headphones can be pretty good too. The DT480 for instance is basically a Beyerdynamic that sounds like an open AKG in a closed construction with a cleaner sound. Drive it well and prepare for audio goodness.
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I actually chose the T1 over the HD800 when I made my last purchase, all because I know I will end up pouring much more money to keep scaling up the HD800. T1 is good for my purpose and keeping the budget in control... I know it does not make any sense for all you here.
FWIW I bought my T1 brand new for YEN83000 before shipping.
:-Z
That does not make sense, especially in light of your imaging argument. I understand the concept of intentionally hobbling yourself for the sake of budget control (even if I don't agree...) but even out of mid-level amps, the HD800 is better in almost every conceivable way than the T1. Also, I haven't heard a headphone that images better than the HD800.
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:-Z
That does not make sense, especially in light of your imaging argument. I understand the concept of intentionally hobbling yourself for the sake of budget control (even if I don't agree...) but even out of mid-level amps, the HD800 is better in almost every conceivable way than the T1. Also, I haven't heard a headphone that images better than the HD800.
The HD800 also demand good quality recordings. Many of the music I liked (e.g. Mandarin pop) are not available in particularly well mastered form (i.e. clearly out of phase DSP effects annoy me a lot)
I must say well proportioned scaling is also one of my requirement in imaging. I once tried listening to a Bach Harpsichord track (can't remember which) on a HD800, and the Harpsichord sounded like it is 5 meters in length across the stage. Could be due to particular recording.
For T1, the image is much smaller/condensed, often come down to a miniature point source. But as least it is not "super sized" distracting.
I think I am still at mid-fi level, avoiding distraction more often than adding enhancement.
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:-Z
That does not make sense, especially in light of your imaging argument. I understand the concept of intentionally hobbling yourself for the sake of budget control (even if I don't agree...) but even out of mid-level amps, the HD800 is better in almost every conceivable way than the T1. Also, I haven't heard a headphone that images better than the HD800.
I dunno. Even out of mid-fi amps the T1 is far less picky. A T1 pretty much sounds like a T1 most of the time. Using any given Burson, CEntrance, RWA, Oppo, Bakoon, etc. the HD800 could run the entire gamut of possible listening displeasure.
He does bring up a good point about Mandarin pop too. Though I do have some rather high quality Asian music from China and Vietnam but none of it is pop.
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Stupid question, but is the MA100 referred to above the Sony MDR MA100? And are these discontinued?
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I dunno. Even out of mid-fi amps the T1 is far less picky. A T1 pretty much sounds like a T1 most of the time. Using any given Burson, CEntrance, RWA, Oppo, Bakoon, etc. the HD800 could run the entire gamut of possible listening displeasure.
I see your point, but I'm saying its not like you HAVE to buy an $2000 amp to enjoy the HD800, but at least you have the option later. T1 may be less picky in a lot of ways, but I don't think it would sound better than the HD800, especially in the imaging department. On the issue of Madarin Pop, I absolutely lack relevant experience.
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You are right, there are much more vialble alternatives below $2K for the HD800 now. It was really really bad choices back in the day when the B22 was the default recommendation.
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I see your point, but I'm saying its not like you HAVE to buy an $2000 amp to enjoy the HD800, but at least you have the option later. T1 may be less picky in a lot of ways, but I don't think it would sound better than the HD800, especially in the imaging department. On the issue of Madarin Pop, I absolutely lack relevant experience.
To illustrate, I tell you my choice of my other hobby.
I chose buying a Suzuki SV650 over a GSXR600 even though I could afford the initial purchase price. The GSXR600 has better suspensions, rev quicker, corners better, with more upgrades available. The GSXR600 scales up just like the HD800 does.
But I figured out I would have the same amount of enjoyment cornering my the SV650 at 50km/h compares to cornering the GSXR600 at 70km/h (because my fears kicks in). Thus I chose the SV650.
But my point is not the T1 is better than the HD800. I still think the T1 is better than the HE-560 overall, especially when considering the build quality/variation/revision factors... and the T1 and the HE-560 are similarly priced now.
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Give it up. This ain't HF where everything you like is awesome.
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better than the HE-560 overall, especially when considering the build quality/variation/revision factors...
What evidence or personal anecdotes of this do you have of this?
I have listened to and/or measured no less than four HE-560s and a dozen T1s. The HE-560s have all been consistent. The only thing cheap-ass about the HE-560 is the veneer, and from what I hear, that was because idiots on HF were bitching about the use of wood on the protos.
The T1s sounded all over the place. The construction of the T1 is no better than the DT880, other than a few external cosmetic touches. The insides of the T1 have no damping. The T1's treble is pure shit. Even if you EQ, the metallic timbre comes through. T1 bass also has issues with cavernous resonance issues.
Please explain better on what merits the T1 should be on the Leaderboard, other that that it suits your budget and 40db low SPL listening needs personally. Good soundstage + shitty peaky and rough treble + overall mediocrity + $1000 price + inconsistent sound / driver matching <> Leaderboard.
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To illustrate, I tell you my choice of my other hobby.
I chose buying a Suzuki SV650 over a GSXR600 even though I could afford the initial purchase price. The GSXR600 has better suspensions, rev quicker, corners better, with more upgrades available. The GSXR600 scales up just like the HD800 does.
But I figured out I would have the same amount of enjoyment cornering my the SV650 at 50km/h compares to cornering the GSXR600 at 70km/h (because my fears kicks in). Thus I chose the SV650.
But my point is not the T1 is better than the HD800. I still think the T1 is better than the HE-560 overall, especially when considering the build quality/variation/revision factors... and the T1 and the HE-560 are similarly priced now.
Your analogy is terrible (coming from a former SV650S owner).
All of the T1s I've demoed have sounded like horse shit, especially given the price. The HE-560 (especially bill's pair) sounded pretty darn good. I have no idea why you're so adamant that the T1 is a good value and that it deserves a spot on the leaderboard hand curated by all of the people who are agreeing in this thread that the T1 is not very good.
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HD800
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Lotus_elise_green.jpg/280px-Lotus_elise_green.jpg)
T1
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/2008_Fiat_500_1.4_Lounge_by_The_Car_Spy.jpg/266px-2008_Fiat_500_1.4_Lounge_by_The_Car_Spy.jpg)
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The T1 isn't that bad...
Still LOLed though.
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LOL.. So what would an HE-560 be?
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Maybe Fiat Abarth.
LOL.. So what would an HE-560 be?
Maybe...
(http://www.easterncapemotors.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/2013-Ford-Fiesta-ST-Photos-13.jpg)
Modded HD800 more like...
(http://autoetecnica.band.uol.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/bac_mono.jpg)
Stax 007/009 are...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Shinkansen_Nozomi_in_Tokyo.jpg)
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Stax 007/009 are...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Shinkansen_Nozomi_in_Tokyo.jpg)
I love duck train! :D
(http://www.quackergiftshop.com/eCart/catalog/(414)conductor%20rubber%20duck.jpg)
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LOL.. So what would an HE-560 be?
Picture of an icicle in someone's ear. :P
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What evidence or personal anecdotes of this do you have of this?
I have listened to and/or measured no less than four HE-560s and a dozen T1s. The HE-560s have all been consistent. The only thing cheap-ass about the HE-560 is the veneer, and from what I hear, that was because idiots on HF were bitching about the use of wood on the protos.
The T1s sounded all over the place. The construction of the T1 is no better than the DT880, other than a few external cosmetic touches. The insides of the T1 have no damping. The T1's treble is pure shit. Even if you EQ, the metallic timbre comes through. T1 bass also has issues with cavernous resonance issues.
Please explain better on what merits the T1 should be on the Leaderboard, other that that it suits your budget and 40db low SPL listening needs personally. Good soundstage + shitty peaky and rough treble + overall mediocrity + $1000 price + inconsistent sound / driver matching <> Leaderboard.
I have stated separately in my earlier posts:
1. The T1 images better than the HE-560 in terms of instrument positioning and proportion which I value higher (and obviously most of the people here don't)
2. I listen at more like 85dB SPL, not 40dB SPL
3. I bought my T1 bland new for about USD750 including shipping. Which is about the same price I can get a HE-560. If I buy used I can get a lightly used HE-560 at below USD500 as most Chinese people don't like how the HE-560 sounds. Most of us like the HE5/HE500/HE6 better.
Besides the wood veneer issues, the HE-560 has uneven thickness pads, stains (not sure if it is glue or just scratches) on diaphragms reported issues in China/Hong Kong. Then there are other minor issues which does not affect sound quality like easily snapped headbands.
I am not sure if Hifiman ships all the grade A HE-560 overseas. There are also sellers on taobao in China selling T1 at low prices and people are saying those are refurbished T1.
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Your analogy is terrible (coming from a former SV650S owner).
All of the T1s I've demoed have sounded like horse shit, especially given the price. The HE-560 (especially bill's pair) sounded pretty darn good. I have no idea why you're so adamant that the T1 is a good value and that it deserves a spot on the leaderboard hand curated by all of the people who are agreeing in this thread that the T1 is not very good.
I am new to here and I honestly didn't know the T1 is so hated here.
I had only listened to the stock HE-560 in shops. I followed Bill's HE-560 mod thread in HF and understood he had to put a substantial large sheet of shelf liner in front of the HE-560 drivers to cure the HE-560 reflection problem. I did similar mod to my HE-500 (sticking 160 4mm half ball beads to the HE-500 baffles) so I kind of know why the HE-560 would need that mod.
My T1 has serial# 18XXX. Not sure if it evolves like the HD650. I do agree at times the T1 treble sounds a bit metallic. Anyway I think I shall stop here.
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I am new to here and I honestly didn't know the T1 is so hated here.
It's not that we want to hate it, we really have no choice. But if you search the threads here you'll know why.
1-The hype train claims they are HD800 killers and god's gift to audiophiles yet come no where close to the scaling and maximal performance of an HD800, 009, etc.
2-12 pairs we've gone through all measure differently. Their own QC video shows one lone chick measuring only one side of a driver for half a millisecond before boxing them up to ship out. I'm not even sure she really bothers to look, just sticks it on the mic and if it shows some sort of horizontal type signal that's fine.
3-None of them have cup damping because apparently Beyer marketing believes the 'Tesla' magnet makes the phone immune to resonances, yet all cheaper DT880's that are almost $1000 cheaper have proper damping and better driver matching. Go figure.
4-Many T1 fans tend to believe using metal materials in herring bone patterns makes things sound better automatically. Of course it does....
5-Many people here on many rigs have had issues with the treble mountain. Peaks and mountains tend to sound more offensive. Many of us AB gear at live acoustic performance sound levels at minimum (avg 75-80dB; not peak) so those peaks turn to daggers and only get progressively worse as you crank it.
Hope that helps explain. At $399, you would be able to make a solid argument. At $1300, no flippin' way that phone ever gets on when it's outclassed by the DT880 in a number of relevant ways.
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Just my own 2 cents on the T-1. I am nowhere as proficient in the technical details of HPs as Anax et al are. I did have an opportunity to audition the T-1 for six weeks. I tried it with the Gungnir as the DAC and a few amps - Zana Deux SE, Project Ember, Schiit Mjolnir. Man, that treble is a killer. It was literally ear piercing and after about half an hour, I had to remove them. My ear would still be ringing. Raising the volume was really not an option. My antidote to this unpleasant sensation was to listen to the LCD-X immediately after. The darker sound was almost a soothing sensation.
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Can't be worse than the DT900Pro 250 or the DT770Pro 250.
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Yes it can.
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It's not that we want to hate it, we really have no choice. But if you search the threads here you'll know why.
1-The hype train claims they are HD800 killers and god's gift to audiophiles yet come no where close to the scaling and maximal performance of an HD800, 009, etc.
2-12 pairs we've gone through all measure differently. Their own QC video shows one lone chick measuring only one side of a driver for half a millisecond before boxing them up to ship out. I'm not even sure she really bothers to look, just sticks it on the mic and if it shows some sort of horizontal type signal that's fine.
3-None of them have cup damping because apparently Beyer marketing believes the 'Tesla' magnet makes the phone immune to resonances, yet all cheaper DT880's that are almost $1000 cheaper have proper damping and better driver matching. Go figure.
4-Many T1 fans tend to believe using metal materials in herring bone patterns makes things sound better automatically. Of course it does....
5-Many people here on many rigs have had issues with the treble mountain. Peaks and mountains tend to sound more offensive. Many of us AB gear at live acoustic performance sound levels at minimum (avg 75-80dB; not peak) so those peaks turn to daggers and only get progressively worse as you crank it.
Hope that helps explain. At $399, you would be able to make a solid argument. At $1300, no flippin' way that phone ever gets on when it's outclassed by the DT880 in a number of relevant ways.
All good observations and measured facts, and valuable for potential T1 buy to read. The lady in the youtube video was obviously checking merely for the soldering/assembling works she was responsible for the DT770. By right the drivers should had been matched before she received. So mismatched drivers was not her responsibility.
And I believe it will be more likely to have a USD399 HE-560 by clearance time comes. The last HE-500 clearance price was USD450.
Looking at the T1 design, I believes Beyer chose to use the fabric mesh material on the driver frame to do all the dampening. On the cup behind the driver, there is actually a circular plastic ring part that reflect the sound wave (which can be replaced with a even lower cost felt if Beyer choose to cheap out). There are also people trying to add dampening felt to T1 cups reported back the image becomes less precise. I guess it is a trade off, or one can say a fundamental design flaw/limitation.
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All good observations and measured facts, and valuable for potential T1 buy to read. The lady in the youtube video was obviously checking merely for the soldering/assembling works she was responsible for the DT770. By right the drivers should had been matched before she received. So mismatched drivers was not her responsibility.
And I believe it will be more likely to have a USD399 HE-560 by clearance time comes. The last HE-500 clearance price was USD450.
Looking at the T1 design, I believes Beyer chose to use the fabric mesh material on the driver frame to do all the dampening. On the cup behind the driver, there is actually a circular plastic ring part that reflect the sound wave (which can be replaced with a even lower cost felt if Beyer choose to cheap out). There are also people trying to add dampening felt to T1 cups reported back the image becomes less precise. I guess it is a trade off, or one can say a fundamental design flaw/limitation.
If what you say is correct I imagine this happened.
"We have this driver technology which we want to sell at huge profit margins."
"So?"
"Do you think adding some padding to the driver construction will make a difference?"
"Does it cost money?"
"Yes."
"Then no, this headphone is to be expensive because expensive is good."
"What if we add some high-tech cloth and say it adds value?"
"Why not? High-tech equals expensive and expensive is good."
"What if people do not like the sound of the headphone?"
"Expensive is good, nothing else matters."
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I was stupid enough to buy one after the hype train on hf a couple of years back. Looking for an upgrade from my Hd600(LOL!). You need muddy tubes and heavy eq to make them listenable. The drivers are matched quite well the problem though is that treble wants to decapitate me all the time...
And then the build quality i mean really? There's something inside the headband that came loose that makes it feel weird, hard to describe and on one side the cup is loose in the hinge which gives it sort of a rattle. And this all happened so quick i can't even sell this pos and thus has been sitting on a shelf for a couple of years. And ehm i voided the waranty by balancing it and then unbalancing it, so if they measure the cable length i'm fucked. So getting it fixed first is not an option either i guess.
Are they doing the design of their pro and consumer stuff seperate? I mean there is such a big difference in quality..
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A good T1 on a decent tube amp (e.g., an upgraded Crack) sounds fairly good, but that's not good enough.
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Agreed, i have a modded crack with speedball but on that amp the T1 is easily bested by my Hd800/600 and DT-150. On my other tube amp which is not an otl, it is also outclassed by the He-500. I guess i'm still bitter about the purchase :)p13
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Ronnie James Dio isn't coming back from the dead.
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Ronnie James Dio isn't coming back from the dead.
I was surprised you did not compare the T1 with the Caparo T1.
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I was surprised you did not compare the T1 with the Caparo T1.
Caparo is smoking fast when it works and driven properly. I thought of it for the HD800 but the Sennheiser is far more reliable and doesn't catch fire. I really don't see the analogy to a T1 except the name T1.
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hello,
all this Beyer talk has got me into research mode.
is the recommendation on the leaderboard applicable to the DT 880 Pro (250 ohm) or just for the Premiums?
thanks
[edit: the Pro model is noted by Beyerdynamic as "Robust, easy serviceable construction as all parts are replaceable" which is a definite plus for me.]
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Just throwing out an odd-ball here: Every time I pick up the Noontec Zoro HD I'm surprised at how good they sound. Probably need quite a few pirates to have a listen for some consensus, but I think they're very good.
There's a pair of Zoro II waiting for me in London. Hopefully they will be making my flights and train journeys more pleasant over the next few weeks
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hello,
all this Beyer talk has got me into research mode.
is the recommendation on the leaderboard applicable to the DT 880 Pro (250 ohm) or just for the Premiums?
thanks
[edit: the Pro model is noted by Beyerdynamic as "Robust, easy serviceable construction as all parts are replaceable" which is a definite plus for me.]
Then go pro. I prefer audio gear which can be fixed without being forced to buy a whole new replacement. Hence I usually had two of my favourite headphones. You can still play with the padding anyway.
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Kind of a bummer, but it looks like the sansa clip+ is being discontinued. The new sansa jam is based off the sansa sport.
crap. mine just stopped working...
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The new ones do away with the voice recording feature, one of the most useful features for me :(
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I still have a Clip Plus left. There is still some life in it. I use the Sansa Fuze V1 more.
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I just bought a Koss KSC-75 based on this leaderboard. I have to say that its a downright amazing headphone for $30 AUD. Unlike many headphones many times more expensive, there's very little wrong with its sound signature. Upper mids/lower treble is a little much but its still really easy to listen to.
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I just bought a Koss KSC-75 based on this leaderboard. I have to say that its a downright amazing headphone for $30 AUD. Unlike many headphones many times more expensive, there's very little wrong with its sound signature. Upper mids/lower treble is a little much but its still really easy to listen to.
Yes. It is amazing. I bought a pair for a friend as he likes to listen to music while he works around the house. He was amazed at the sound. His favorite for just kicking back and listening.
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Figured this is a good place to ask since one of these is on the leaderboard. I need a neutralish but warm iem for relaxing, I have Sony XBA H3 and the cheapo Xiaomi Pistons and both are good for bassy trebly nonsense but well yeah. Currently using the cheapo Monoprice, they're pretty decent but snares are kinda rough and trumpets are shrieky, looking at the the RE-400 measurements those are deemphasized where the monoprice are peaky. The other option is Carbo Tenore which seems like sick value. If anyone can chime in thanks, in the meantime I'll go try to make sense of what ultrabike did with the Tenors measurements. :)p13
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Figured this is a good place to ask since one of these is on the leaderboard. I need a neutralish but warm iem for relaxing, I have Sony XBA H3 and the cheapo Xiaomi Pistons and both are good for bassy trebly nonsense but well yeah. Currently using the cheapo Monoprice, they're pretty decent but snares are kinda rough and trumpets are shrieky, looking at the the RE-400 measurements those are deemphasized where the monoprice are peaky. The other option is Carbo Tenore which seems like sick value. If anyone can chime in thanks, in the meantime I'll go try to make sense of what ultrabike did with the Tenors measurements. :)p13
Assuming by relaxing you mean in the house and in a relatively quiet room? If so the JVC HA-FX46 from Japan is nice for that. Warm velvety mids and unobtrusive highs with warmish non-overbearing bass. Noise blocking is not the greatest but they are comfy and stay in place. I tried the tenore and my unit suffered from lack of bass, pretty good details in the highs and a slightly lean mid by comparison to the JVC.
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Recommend removal of Sony ZX1 and AK Junior to replace it. I still prefer the Sony UI, but the AK UI is pretty good once you get used to it. Also, the AK Junior does sound better than the Sony.
Any seconds?
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I liked what I heard, and the price point of the Jr is pretty reasonable. Good to see them pulling an Oppo with some trickle down tech. I'd take a Jr over the ZX1 at the going rate of each right now.
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It's done.
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Nominating HE400S on the leaderboard, possibly replacing DT880 given the price.
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Nominating HE400S on the leaderboard, possibly replacing DT880 given the price.
Or for that matter, isn't the Phillips Fidelio X2 pretty much universally considered better than the dt880? At roughly the same price...
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Or for that matter, isn't the Phillips Fidelio X2 pretty much universally considered better than the dt880? At roughly the same price...
I don't feel either of those are a replacement for the DT880.
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Nominating HE400S on the leaderboard, possibly replacing DT880 given the price.
Even if they don't replace the DT880, I think they're phenomenal at the price point and probably should be on the leaderboard.
Also going to piggyback on this and nominate Garage1217's Project Ember V2 for the Amplifier (Value) section.
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I don't feel either of those are a replacement for the DT880.
Not necessarily suggesting the replacement. OTOH OJ, would you second the nomination?
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Or for that matter, isn't the Phillips Fidelio X2 pretty much universally considered better than the dt880? At roughly the same price...
Not to me...
I'd need to listen to the X2 again, but looking at just the data wouldn't put them on par to me. At least for my priorities and recollections.
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/PhilipsFidelioX2.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicDT880600ohm.pdf
400S is a no brainer. I bet it measures closer to the 880 than the X2 (not in signature, but refined performance and technical accuracy)
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I like the DT880 better than the X2. I also find it's less sensitive than the X1 and needs amplification. It just isn't up to snuff when stacked against other mid fi competition.
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Also going to piggyback on this and nominate Garage1217's Project Ember V2 for the Amplifier (Value) section.
I second the nomination for Project Ember V2.
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I second the nomination for Project Ember V2.
Third.
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If 400S does most everything 880 does, without the brightness, it sounds like a good contender for replacement.
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Thanks for the reply comments on the X2. I think I was under the impression that these were a cut above, maybe based on Tyll's wall o' fame. Seems that they may not be all that. FWIW, I don't personally like some of the stuff on Tyll's wall o' fame, such as the vModa m100 - I don't think this headphone deserves it.
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If 400S does most everything 880 does, without the brightness, it sounds like a good contender for replacement.
Maybe more of a complement. I was trying to avoid the notion they were the same/similar sound signature.
Base on my limited listening, 400s is more for those wanting an inoffensive and relaxed neutralish signature without over warmth, bloom, mud and slop. Maybe something more akin to what some were hoping the Nighthawk sounded like.
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Thanks for the reply comments on the X2. I think I was under the impression that these were a cut above, maybe based on Tyll's wall o' fame. Seems that they may not be all that. FWIW, I don't personally like some of the stuff on Tyll's wall o' fame, such as the vModa m100 - I don't think this headphone deserves it.
I only briefly heard the X2, but I don't understand the hype for them personally.
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Not necessarily suggesting the replacement. OTOH OJ, would you second the nomination?
I'd need to hear it again with my own gear. I know many others have sung its praises but I like to be more thorough.
The Philips shouldn't be on the list IMO. Just isn't on the same level. Overhyped and firmly entrenched in mid-fi purgatory. DT880 is at least edging toward being hi-end.
I also dislike the idea of replacing classics with new stuff especially when it's riding in on the hype train.
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I also dislike the idea of replacing classics with new stuff especially when it's riding in on the hype train.
Agreed.
I almost feel like there should be a rule. No product makes the leaderboard unless it is x years old. But, that would be an arbitrary number, and there are bound to be exceptions.
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Anax: mmmm 400S sounds good to me.
lmader: i was misled by that list, and bought an M100. Thank God it was on heavy discount. I really disliked the fit and sound.
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The Philips shouldn't be on the list IMO. Just isn't on the same level. Overhyped and firmly entrenched in mid-fi purgatory. DT880 is at least edging toward being hi-end.
Indeed. People call is great for bassheads, but it lacks sub-bass umph. People also call it similar to the HD650, which isn't even close IMO. The HD650 is much more resolving even if I don't love it.
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- Ember added
- No to X2 - I don't care for it. OK tuning, but more toward consumer-fi.
- Wait on 400S
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I thought the X2 was ok. I recommend it to people who want full sized open backed consumer-ish sound but don't want to invest in amping.
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HE400S added to Leaderboard (value ortho segment)
Nominate Liquid Crimson / possibly replace Liquid Glass.
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Nominate Liquid Crimson / possibly replace Liquid Glass.
Would like to hear it again but definitely concur.
Let's have a retired segment, kinda like vintage/OOP.
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Agreed on the LC. Definitely.
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HE400S added to Leaderboard (value ortho segment)
Nominate Liquid Crimson / possibly replace Liquid Glass.
I'd have to hear both. Any reason to replace the LG? Kinda different things. One is designed as set it and forget it, the other isn't.
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I really like the updates to the original list--especially agree about the HE6, UERM, Gamma2, and Berkeley feedback given that those are the gear I'm most familiar with :) I don't know about the 009 and smooth treble but that thing gives me a headache. The vintage sections is neat, too--FWIW, I heard there were two sets of drivers for the 007MK1s based on the S/N.
Did the LCD3 not make the list due to inconsistent production? I've heard some meh LCD3s but one or two that sounded really good. It does seem sensitive to amping, though less so than the Hifiman headphones.
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Any reason the GoV2 cannot replace to GO 450?
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Any reason the GoV2 cannot replace to GO 450?
If the V2 in question doesn't have 450mw output. That's the best technical sounding Geek output level with IEMs IME.
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If the V2 in question doesn't have 450mw output. That's the best technical sounding Geek output level with IEMs IME.
So the 100mw setting is shit?
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No, it's not.
The sound of the GOv2 in 100mW is quite a bit smoother and fuller than the GO IEM100, though.
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Is it better then the original 450?
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So the 100mw setting is shit?
None of them are shit. Most people won't notice the difference probably. Think of it this way.
GO100 GO450 GO1000
<--------------------------------------------------------------------------->
reduced dynamics best balance (UERM) red res/air, incr bass
It really comes down to basic power versus distortion.
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Is it better then the original 450?
The amp section didn't entirely change to my knowledge or ears. The digital side did and how power output is managed.
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Ok thanks for the clarification no one has talked about the 100mw setting at all
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Ok thanks for the clarification no one has talked about the 100mw setting at all
The 100 v.1 was a little limp, the V2 signature sound helps to fill it out and add some needed warmth making it more pleasing. I still don't find it slams or swings hard and fast enough for my tastes. Hope that makes sense.
Bear in mind, some might be using very sensitive IEMs and maybe the 100 setting is much quieter for them if they tend to get hiss on their rigs.
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I have noted the Theta Data III - which has been pretty much unobtainium this side of the world for months. Any other worthwhile spinner recommendations?
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Nominating the ALO RX MK3B and 3B+ for the Vintage or OOP section. I've seen a number of these going for $300-375 lately used just sitting with no one scooping them up.
It has too loud of a hiss with (most) IEMs, but with full size headphones it's really a gem. Just like Anax just mentioned over in the portable amps thread:
Yeah, it really sounds quite good with headphones. Not aggressive and not too laid back, but very nice soundstaging and layering. Decent plankton/resolution and not offensive up top or down below.
That's almost exactly how I hear it as well. At their current prices, they're a crazy bargain. It sounds better than most desktop amps at or around that price point.
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I have noted the Theta Data III - which has been pretty much unobtainium this side of the world for months. Any other worthwhile spinner recommendations?
I'd like to second this. Theta transports are nigh-on impossible to find where I am and I would like to know about comparably excellent spinners to improve my digital setup.
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You could always pick up the Pioneer D704 which the Theta was based off of. They can usually be found for $150 or less if you look around and perform quite well as transports for the price.
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Thanks! I've little to no experience with comparing transports, and I appreciate the advice. At the present I'm looking to get my feet wet with them after reading the posts about squeezing the maximum out of the Yggy. Are there other transports that provide perhaps a distinctly different effect on sound?
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My advice is to stay away from transports unless you are willing to go to extreme lengths in finding a good one or tweaking one which often equates to money and time. Anaxilus did a lot of legwork and I got lucky with a cheap Data III.
ALO RXmk3 is awesome.
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My advice is to stay away from transports unless you are willing to go to extreme lengths in finding a good one or tweaking one which often equates to money and time. Anaxilus did a lot of legwork and I got lucky with a cheap Data III.
ALO RXmk3 is awesome.
Thanks Marv. You are probably right about this being a difficult undertaking to say the least. On a side note regarding the leaderboard, will the HE-1000 be considered for addition to the board under the no-limit planar classification?
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Nominating the ALO RX MK3B and 3B+ for the Vintage or OOP section.
What's the difference between B and B+?
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What's the difference between B and B+?
About 4-5%. :P
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What's the difference between B and B+?
Lowered noise floor for IEMs and longer battery life (~14 hours balanced out vs ~10 hours balanced out). ALO never got the B+ noise floor low enough for sensitive IEMs to not still hear a hiss, so it's really battery life for any use case that you'd reasonably want a RX mk3B/B+ to fill.
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Iiiiinteresting. Thanks guys.
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Don't know if I missed it... About the geek out 450 recommendation, does the 1000 sound as good or better?
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Don't know if I missed it... About the geek out 450 recommendation, does the 1000 sound as good or better?
It has more drive for headphones like the HD800. It sounds warmer due to added bass distortion with more power. 450 has better separation and sounds cleaner and more balanced. The Geeks prefer kernel streaming on Jriver IME which is unusual. I've heard some people with foobar describe overly warm and compressed sound signatures.
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Does someone need to do a brief blurb for the Ember II?
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It has more drive for headphones like the HD800. It sounds warmer due to added bass distortion with more power. 450 has better separation and sounds cleaner and more balanced. The Geeks prefer kernel streaming on Jriver IME which is unusual. I've heard some people with foobar describe overly warm and compressed sound signatures.
Kernel Streaming hmmm so I guess ASIO4ALL(supposedly kernel streaming) would be fine? Ive noticed standard Kernel streaming gives me problems with some other dacs I've tried on Jriver.
So far as the sound sig is concerned, I just hope it's not too warm sounding. I am about to receive mine soon :wheel:
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My GO 1000 arrived and I find ASIO to sound better than KS. KS has some distortion. This was a quick comparison though and theres nothing scientific about my quick switching method for this one. I also prefer the FRM mode on the DAC as well. So far as the thick sound is concerned, Its fine when used with my Grado SR60e. It gives these cans the anchor they need. I'll try it with some senns later but yah I hear what you mean about the extra warmth. Its probably as warm as the vali but these are less grainy sounding overall compared to the vali/modi combo on the Grado.
EDIT: Nevermind about the TCM and FRM modes... It seems LHlabs info is conflicting here with two different instructions. One page says FRM is the one beside the headphone jack and vice versa. Plus My concave button is not in the same place as the one on the site as well. Mine is near the HP jack side. Anyways, I prefer whatever that mode is that is nearer to the headphone jack and lights the 3/4 leds
EDIT: KS is better than ASIO for GO1000 if set up to use 32 bit integer and LH labs volume control. Nice!
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EDIT: KS is better than ASIO for GO1000 if set up to use 32 bit integer and LH labs volume control. Nice!
Nice catch on your part. I forgot to mention that.
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Has anyone heard the Beyer DT1770 pro?
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Has anyone heard the Beyer DT1770 pro?
Not yet, but I want to even though I feel I will be disappointed!! LOL ;)
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If they have the treble issues that their other headphones have then...
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Beyerdynamic wants more money as this is three times the price of the DT 770s, which Beyer discontinued the consumer versions of. Similar comfy headphone with V-shaped sound that's not so great for listening to music. Watch it have major QC issues due to the variability of Beyer's Tesla drivers and shoddy plastic injection. Thousands of 770s have defective drivers with major amounts of distortion and Beyer does nothing.
The DT1770 also has no damping material in the cup like the other Tesla headphones. :boom:
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I have only had the NAD HP50 for about a week and that was a while ago. The Focal Spirit Pro did not fit my head/ears, and the headband cracked in the first month of use.
What I am wondering about is why is NAD HP50 not considered Leaderboard material, while the Focal Spirit Pro is?
Please enlighten me :)
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The Focal Spirit Pro did not fit my head/ears, and the headband cracked in the first month of use.
The headband of my Focal Spirit Pro also cracked on both sides after a couple weeks of very light use.
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The NAD HP50 is good stuff and doesn't break the bank. I think it's too warm to call neutral but it's a great headphone. I'd give my vote for it being leaderboard material. Haven't heard the Focal's but have heard the PSB versions. They sound good too but build is questionable.
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I have only had the NAD HP50 for about a week and that was a while ago. The Focal Spirit Pro did not fit my head/ears, and the headband cracked in the first month of use.
What I am wondering about is why is NAD HP50 not considered Leaderboard material, while the Focal Spirit Pro is?
Please enlighten me :)
Re: the NAD Viso HP50, I thought that the pair I had more than a bit of cup coloration in the male vocal range. Something of a hollow coloration going on.
Also, FWIW, the HP50 was just as crap for me durability wise as the FSP: the headband on mine cracked above the gimble/adjustment mechanism after just three weeks of use. Caused the one cup to lose all clamping force. I had to make a warranty claim for replacement. After that, I sold the replacement locally.
These two things combined made me sell them off. I *did* think that they imaged better than the FSP and had better treble definition and extension.
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What I am wondering about is why is NAD HP50 not considered Leaderboard material, while the Focal Spirit Pro is?
HP50 doesn't sound so good: a little too V-shaped. Also, the headband bears noise and one of the swivel mechanisms stopped working within days. (I voted against the Focal too, because of bad fit and build quality.)
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The headband of my Focal Spirit Pro also cracked on both sides after a couple weeks of very light use.
Funny. Tried these out, a guy brought them to a meet. They were brand new. Put them on and the headband cracked right away. I hated how they sounded anyway, only redeeming quality was the bass imo.
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NAD HP50 to me was as uncomfortable as Focal Spirit series were. In terms of sound, it was pretty meh to me. From memory HP50 was not as balanced or clear as FSP. Among $250~300 range portable closed cans, I vote nay for HP50 on leaderboard.
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I tried HP50 from Clip and liked these. Reasonably comfy and light. Most neutral closed can I have heard. what I noticed was some haze or glare and funky bloom that distracted a bit. As such I wouldn't cast my vote for them.
For half the money or less as good IEM-s can be had.