CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on June 08, 2015, 11:11:55 PM
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About a year ago, or maybe less, Hans asked me if I wanted to have a go at the ZMF x Vibro. I declined because I was busy with other stuff; but having a had chance to finally meet Zach at THE SHOW and listen to one of his headphones, I thought I should definitely take a listen and talk about it at least a little bit. Zach only made this easier when I unassumingly sat down at his table (with me trying to hide my name tag as I always do) by recognizing me and immediately proclaiming "Hey, you're Purrin. By the way, I AM NOT [like] Dan!"
Per HF custom (I don't know who the fuck started this shit), I will begin with unboxing photos. Let us get all orgasmic by feasting our eyes on the packaging of the product.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2497.0;attach=10052;image)
I am beginning to really like Zach.
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One of the reasons, albeit frivolous, that I didn't want to take a shot at the ZMF x Vibro about a year ago was because I though the moniker "ZMF x Vibro" sounded too awkward or perhaps too much like some sort of sex toy. I gave Hans a bunch of shit about it. Hans' reply was "don't complain to me, I didn't come up with the name." It appears that Zach has wizened up since then by more appropriately naming this headphone the Black Wood.
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On to subjective impressions.
Well, I actually like this headphone. If I didn't like it, I would not have asked Zach for this loaner. (And no, I didn't ask for a discount, nor did I request as a free keepsie). I will be succinct as usual:
- Has tonal similarities to HD650. Mid-bass bump - nice punchy bass. Touch warm upper bass, but blending well into the mids with a smooth response to an even treble. The HD650 might have a touch more upper-mids, but really, a lot of tonal similarities.
- Bass and lower mid quality is better than HD650, but HD650 has cleaner upper and mids treble.
- The closed cups actually provide a nice woody coloration and spacious effect, kind of like R10 or AT woody (but without the AT midrange weirdness or "charm"). I like this!
- Maybe a slight suckout at 200Hz. Nothing major, probably difficult for most people to hear, but I've heard this effect with quite a lot with closed headphones.
- Rather inefficient. Maybe a little bit less efficient than other T50RP mods. Not really a big deal with most of today's amps, even the modest ones.
- Something I just noticed today, a bag of pegs, presumably to tune the bass. There are two small holes in the wood cups. I'll play with this and report back.
BTW, I think the wood cups look fantastic. The headphone is comfy with a padded headband. The earpads are also nice and comfy.
Here is a picture of the headphone at work. I'm using a GOv2 (proto) as a DAC hooked up to a Magni 2. The GOv2 is off the docking station for bettar powah. Unfortunately, I can't show you guys what's on my screens because I could get fired. For all we know, they might be stills from the new Star Wars movie.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2497.0;attach=10056;image)
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Measurements tonight...
Measurements (without the hair simulator, which is not baseline = stronger seal + more bass):
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2497.msg69924.html#msg69924 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2497.msg69924.html#msg69924)
Measurements with bass ports and hair simulator (which is the normal baseline) in place:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2497.msg71055.html#msg71055 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2497.msg71055.html#msg71055)
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Measurements tonight...
Want.
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Hmm I have some measurements of the Blackwood with the cowhide ear pads...just a quick take. Was testing out the new pads for Zach a bit. I think the pair Marv is testing has the lambskin pads? Can't remember off the top of my head if Zach said anything about other differences between these two Blackwood pairs, but I can post them if he doesn't mind.
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Yeah no probs. The only differences in what Hans had and Marvey has is the pads (which do seem to make a little difference). Ofcourse the measurement rigs I believe are completely different, but both phones were tuned to the same curve.
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OK, left channel measurments of Blackwood w/ cowhide pads, all ports open in back. Bass and mids look good. Ideally I'd like to see a bit more of a bass-to-mids connection in that 200Hz area, but nothing major. The emphasis around 5.5KHz bothered me. Didn't hurt my ears so much, just made them sound a bit grey, hazy, and hashy. Coupled with the rolled-off upper-treble, it was a bit odd sounding to me.
Unfortunately, I didn't get to try these with the lambskin pads or alpha pads. I know Zach originally tuned these for the alpha pads, and I think the odd treble was mostly due to the thickness and semi-rigidity of the cowhide pads. Something that is less thick or compresses more easily would probably sound a bit darker and smoother up top.
CSDs looked good, too lazy to post. They're clean and fast.
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Yeah, the 5.5khz peak was the only thing that bothered me really. Zach knows and won't deny, hide or make excuses for anything like some ortho modders will. The rest was quite well done for a T50.
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In the future I'm just gonna send Blackwood and Omni owners the Cowhide and Lambskin Pads so they can find out what works best for them, as Hans pointed out, the Lambskin pads are a bit softer and easier to compress, while the Cowhide pads are stiff-ish.
Vibro works best with the softer lambskin pads IMHO.
Weirdly on my rig that peak is closer to 7K, while the rest looks similar. Will be interesting how Marv's measurements turn out with the Lambskin pads. The final Cowhide pads are a little different than the ones Hans had, but not too much to make a major difference I don't think.
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Weirdly on my rig that peak is closer to 7K, while the rest looks similar. Will be interesting how Marv's measurements turn out with the Lambskin pads. The final Cowhide pads are a little different than the ones Hans had, but not too much to make a major difference I don't think.
Yeah, I think I heard it higher when I listened to your rig too.
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Measurements attached. All three ports open. My preference one or two holes stuffed with those black plugs. I forgot to use my hair simulator, so bass seal is probably stronger on the rig than is typical on a human head.
You guys are both right on the peak... typical T50RP variation.
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Fascinating how all our measurements vary based on our set-ups.
Here's what they typically look like on my mic, a set I just finished (left side/right side).
I've been meaning to copy your C.U.N.T. design for a while Marv. =)
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Fascinating how all our measurements vary based on our set-ups.
Here's what they typically look like on my mic, a set I just finished (left side/right side).
I've been meaning to copy your C.U.N.T. design for a while Marv. =)
Thanks for posting this, Zach. Thanks to Marv and hans for the measurements, as well. I really love all of the work so far!
How much do the ports change the sound? Roughly what frequency range is affected?
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If it's the same/similar as the Vibro, those are bass ports...
I think I tried the Vibro's (and preferred them) with 2 closed.
(yep, 2 closed --> http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1771.msg49861.html#msg49861)
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Thanks for posting this, Zach. Thanks to Marv and hans for the measurements, as well. I really love all of the work so far!
How much do the ports change the sound? Roughly what frequency range is affected?
I'll do some measurements. Not sure if I like stuffing one hole or both holes. Tending toward one hole since both holes seems kinda ghey sounding.
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I typically go all holes open when I listen. Each hole covered reduces the mid bass, or the "front of the hump" by a db or so. At least on my set-up. It actually does more on the Vibro's than on the Blackwood's because of the way each is tuned.
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Lemme provide my Blackwood hole stuffing comparison measurements...sometime.
All this talk of Vibros, Blackwoods, one, two, or three hole stuffing...BRB...(Zach, you might as well run with this for naming schemes and otherwise).
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All this talk of Vibros, Blackwoods, one, two, or three hole stuffing...BRB...(Zach, you might as well run with this for naming schemes and otherwise).
So when does the ZMF Magic Wand come out?
:&
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hello,
@Imader, i just did. holy Schitt!
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Time for one of these.
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Hah - I saw that too...
Yeah...maybe I need to rename the Omni something ***sexier***
:wheel:
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Time for one of these.
Haha. Apparently you were right...
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I prefer Blackwood with two ports closed. As I hear it, closing the top one tones down the low treble very slightly. Closing one of the two bottom ports tightens the bass a little; I went back and forth on which bottom port to close (and I don't remember which I settled on except that it's opposite of the stock configuration). That was the most genre-versatile configuration for me.
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Is there a way to have a "one and a half" plug for the Blackwoods?
I think I might like the sound with a half opened hole for extra fine tuning...actually thought about slicing one of the grommets(??) in half, or widening one of the three holes a bit. But the Blackwood is so beautiful, I'm wary to do anything to the cups.
BTW--Zach is a super guy to deal with, even half a world away. And makes decent cables at a decent price.
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I think I might like the sound with a half opened hole for extra fine tuning...actually thought about slicing one of the grommets(??) in half, or widening one of the three holes a bit.
Try tape with a pinhole in it first.
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Esp on the blackwood, the ports aren't going to make as big of a difference, like .5 to 1 db or so per plug. The Vibro reacts much more.
I know the rubber dowels aren't ideal, don't be afraid to really push em in hard.
I'll bring up this to Luke (Vibro Labs) to see if he can think of any possible "fix."
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- Yellow (per first page measurement): Without the hair simulator - which should have been there in 1st page, measurements, but I left it off because I was lazy.
- Green - with the hair simulator which is the typical baseline / how all other headphones are measured.
- Gray - with hair simulator and one port blocked.
- Orange - two ports blocked.
- Blue - all ports blocked.
With the hair simulator in place, measurements are more in line with Zach's.
NOTE: the headphone measurements are VERY sensitive to pad deformation and positioning. I tried not moving the headphone much for placement of the hair simulator strip. For the ports, I did not move the headphone at all.
SHIPPED to Hans#
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- Gray - with hair simulator and one port blocked.
- Orange - two ports blocked.
Thanks for doing this. Which ports did you close? From what I remember, the top port tamed the upper range for vocals but I guess it's not apparent in measurements.
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I started with top port first.
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Has anyone heard both the PM3 and Blackwood? If so, how does the bass impact of the blackwood compare to the PM3. I have a pair of pm3s but I just can't deal with the small cups anymore and i'm looking for a larger sized headphone. The bass impact on the pm3 is just ok. It was there but not much of it and my mad dogs that I just bought don't have any and the bass is very loose sounding too. Any replies are appreciated. Thank you.
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I feel the Blackwood is more tactile. In terms of overall bass volume, you can get them to match as the Blackwood has the adjustable ports. I'd get another opinion from Hands since I know his has experience with both at home. Summoning Hands...
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Wow that was fast. Thanks Marv I appreciate it!
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Honestly the pm3 isn't even in the same sport as the Blackwood IMO. The Blackwood is leagues better in every way other than midrange clarity and portability.
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Whoa....for real? That's quite a statement there haha. That's very nice to hear though. After getting used to the pm3s bass which was actually pretty tight but with little impact, the mad dogs REALLY disappointed me in that regard. If that blackwoods are THAT much better then I might look into getting them.....well unless the omni decides to come out and absolutely destroy everything else haha. Thank you for the reply Keanex.
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I think you can count on the Blackwood or Omni for having pretty consistent bass quantity and impact. Strong, thick, girthy.
My PM3 hit really hard and was surprisingly bassy. Clearly not all PM3s have this attribute due to varying levels of consistency. That, and they are incredibly picky about fit and seal. Thick or long hair? Might not get enough seal. Big ears? Might not get enough seal. Weird shaped head? Might not get a good seal. Glasses, even the smallest and least intrusive? Gonna affect PM3 seal. I measured the effects of wearing glasses with my PM3, and it really dropped the bass down to a relatively neutral and not particularly impactful level.
Sure, Blackwood and Omni are very seal dependent too, but thanks to their plush pads, it's much easier unless, again, you wear glasses.
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Thank you very much Hands! I have really short hair(basically buzzed) and my ears are 2.8in long and they stick out too so the pm3 are definitely not over ear for me. I wear contacts too so that wouldn't be an issue either. Yeah I loved your pm3 review but was immediately confused and in disbelief when I saw the frequency response graph you posted because there was absolutely no way the bass was emphasized on my pair. Then I saw the graph that showed the effects of a proper seal and that looked way more close to what I was hearing.
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Yeah, I really wonder about the pm3 consistency based on my experience compared to others. Boomy bass that bleeds into the midrange and uninspired highs. Midrange was great but overshadowed by the bass. This doesn't seem to be common based on reviews/measurements that I've seen though.
That and I'm in love with the Blackwood.
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Yeah I am extremely disappointed in how inconsistent they measure. Literally every single response graph is different and that's extremely disappointing. How good of a seal could def be effecting the sound but from how different all the graphs look it almost seems like there might be a quality control issue.
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Honestly the pm3 isn't even in the same sport as the Blackwood IMO. The Blackwood is leagues better in every way other than midrange clarity and portability.
FWIW -Did not do a side by side, but the blackwoods did impress me and PM3s not.
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Tyll measured three PM3s, I believe, and while they weren't entirely different headphones, they did have enough variance alone to explain subjective differences. With a bit of fiddling, they worked as over-the-ear for me and sealed very nicely. Boom, tons of powerful, thick bass. Break that even a tiny bit, and bye bye. Even then, from measurements, there seem to be pairs floating around that have lacking bass even with a good seal. One thing I can't take into account as easily is personal taste. One man's too much bass is another man's too little bass, or could be track dependent even.
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Has anyone heard both the PM3 and Blackwood? If so, how does the bass impact of the blackwood compare to the PM3. I have a pair of pm3s but I just can't deal with the small cups anymore and i'm looking for a larger sized headphone. The bass impact on the pm3 is just ok. It was there but not much of it and my mad dogs that I just bought don't have any and the bass is very loose sounding too. Any replies are appreciated. Thank you.
I heard the PM3 when it first came out, and own the Blackwood (Purpleheart). Agree with pretty much everything above. Mids and highs are smooth and clear (I don't have the hearing ability or vocabulary of Changstar veterans). Bass extends VERY low and is impactful on my head/ears w/ Alpha pads and all ports out. Mid-bass slightly recessed, but I've become accustomed to it and really like the sound now.
Have also replied to your post at the other place.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/728144/zmf-x-vibro-zmf-blackwood-discussion-thread/900#post_11940044
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Yeah I also saw the 3 pairs tyll measured and was pretty confused about which graph would represent the production model that consumers would be buying. I asked him this and he told me "Sample B and C. The first one was early production. Samples B and C are quite close." When ever I first put them on and listened I was taken aback and wondered why they sounded like they had very little bass and had a peak at 1k. After a week or so that peak settled down and the bass sounded like it got stronger in both impact and volume.
That could have been because the peak relaxed a bit though since that area would definitely effect the perception of bass. I'm glad you brought up the variation of bass on different tracks hands because my god, these also had the weirdest and most inconsistent bass i've ever heard. Some tracks I knew pretty well to have good low end just didn't transfer over to the pm3 while some tracks that were softer had low end that I never even knew was there just pop out. Just my experience with them though. Very strange and off putting to say the least.
gixxerwimp - Once again, thank you for replying. It seems like the general consensus is that they are really good.
To anyone - I've heard the 400i and I know they have pretty damn good impactful bass, How do those compare to the blackwoods regarding bass. I apologize for all the questions and comparisons. I'm a picky bastard. Thank you.