CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: ultrabike on February 15, 2014, 07:35:49 PM
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A friend of mine got these on sale and let me take a listen...
Sound
The first thing that came to my mind when I tried these was WTF!!! This is a closed ear pad can, and if anything I was expecting a somewhat bass heavy presentation. Instead I got one hell of a lean sound signature. I moved them around and placing the headband towards the front did bring up some of upper bass and warmth, but things were still recessed. These are fairly position sensitive.
The vocals were panned to the left, and things sounded sort of wonky. Definitively some uneveness and driver imbalance problem going on.
The treble seemed well extended but also fairly uneven. These are not necessarily very fatiguing cans. Just awfully weird sounding.
Comfort
These fitted me fairly tight around my head. The headband was well cushioned and seemed similar to the B&W P5, but nowhere near the B&W comfort. I cannot miss them. The cans will constantly and unequivocally remind me that they are on my head.
Presentation
These absolutely look the part. Nice metal frame and leather like cushions. Very elegant.
Price
As of this post they are ~$80 (or cheaper) w an $300 MSRP. The sound is effed up. Maybe quality control problems.
Overall
Run Away. At least until Martin Logan fixes this thing (quality control, driver selection, damping scheme or whatever).
Measurements
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5563;image)
Distortion Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5565;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5567;image)
CSD Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5569;image)
CSD Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5571;image)
Frequency Response difference when moving headband towards front (Left Driver)
white - headband normal / blue - headband forward
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5573;image)
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This thing's being labeled as one of the most accurate and truthful headphones on HF by some optimistic followers. :)p13
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Maybe this set was broken... Dunno. :-Z
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as usual... speaker companies that want to get some cash by selling cheaply made headphones at a profit BOOO :boom:
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Oh god... After all the hype from various Head-fi threads, this is how these things sound?
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I'm having a similar feeling with the new Sony 7520 or whatever. It's being hyped up as one of the most accurate and neutral headphones on head-fi, however after looking at a hifi guy video on youtube who described the 7520 and the Z1000 sounding pretty much the same, and then looking at the Z1000 measurements on headphone.com, I'm kinda worried.
The 7520 would be a cool headphone to have if it had the general sound of the FSP, as it looks more circumaural and I really dig that all magnesium frame.
I guess what I'm saying is, somebody needs to get a hold of a 7520 to measure.
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Haha, someone is reading my mind.
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This thing's being labeled as one of the most accurate and truthful headphones on HF by some optimistic followers. :)p13
Oh you mean like the DT48?
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Guard your buns. :vomit:
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Browsed the last few pages of the Head-fi thread to see if you guys had set off any bombs yet. Was disappointed there were no fireworks. Then I realized I didn't recognize hardly anyone on these pages, figures the fans would be nobodies.
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It's a pretty odd can. The bass is there, just a bit below the rest of the spectrum, which may explain the leanness. Over time the cans seem to tilt forward, and when that happens the bass seems to fill up a bit... but IMO still recessed.
My wife also qualified it as sounding distant.
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This thing's being labeled as one of the most accurate and truthful headphones on HF by some optimistic followers. :)p13
Oh you mean like the DT48?
Ah... Dale ....
THD plots (aside from 3.5kHz and 6kHz peaks) seem to show the noise floor of the used pre-amp rather than distortion levels.
These could be much lower.
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http://www.head-fi.org/t/633514/martin-logan-mikros-90-on-ear-headphones/1605#post_10277475
walk the plank2
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Yes, dunno about that. However, to some extent I kind of agree w this other post:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/633514/martin-logan-mikros-90-on-ear-headphones/945#post_10245219 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/633514/martin-logan-mikros-90-on-ear-headphones/945#post_10245219)
From memory, the HP50 definitively has more bass quantitiy, while the Mikros 90 seems more forward and extended in the treble. As far as bass definition, the little that it's there does sound somewhat clean to my ears. It might complement well an HP50... sort of the anti-basshead can.
Not sure what to make about the driver imbalance though.
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Overall
Run Away. At least until Martin Logan fixes this thing (quality control, driver selection, damping scheme or whatever).
Remember who you're talking about. Martin Logan can't make speakers, so I am completely unshocked that they would also suck at headphones. What they are VERY good at is coming up with unpronounceable names like "Vojtko" and other dumb trademarks. I've always called them the Bose of ESLs.
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Took a look at that thread.
Off topic, but what's up with these "discovery threads" and people---I'm assuming younger, less experienced people---posting tons and tons of animated GIFs to try and communicate their experience? Was kind of novel at first as an occasional punctuation point, but damn these guys are like:
At first I was <WHY U NO PIC> but then I was <TROLLFACE PIC> and now with these mods it's like <BRUCE LEE PIC> and wow these mods <MINDBLOWN PIC>.
...seriously makes my brain hurt. I hope this is not the future of this hobby.
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<HATERS GONNA HATE PIC>
I blame this (http://www.head-fi.org/t/644128/audiophile-by-accident-the-hobby-an-unexpected-journey) guy.
I can kind of forgive (for a little bit) it if its a foreigner thing - can't convey things in proper English so use some GIFs. But if it has really spread that much, I'm glad I haven't run into those threads. I was thinking of doing a parody review in that style at one point, but that was back when it was just Dan and he was such a positive guy I didn't want to give him a hard time. May be time to revisit that.
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Yeah, you're probably right. I've seen it around in other places too though, like the anime thread, and I think it's part of a larger shift away from written posting what with tumblr and image boards like "the Chans" becoming such predominant factors in Internet culture. Livejournal and written blogs in general are becoming less fashionable.
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A lot of these GIFs seem like emotional shorthand - kind of just an updated emoticon. Sometimes I do wonder if either a) people are less able to convey nuance in emotions that the written word can contain, so a GIF suffices or may even drive home the point better than any words they could use, or b) To stick out on a place like the internet, your experience has to be to be over-the-top. You can't just say "I find most aspects of the K812 pleasant, and the negatives are outweighed." Such an opinion which is something other than pitch black or TV-anchor-teeth white just gets lost in the shuffle. No, you need to love/hate. And that means either lots of caps (Mercer) or Bugs-Bunny-heart-throbbing (that Romanian guy.)
Or maybe I'm overthinking it and a generation that grows up with the proliferation of GIFs is simply more likely to use them.
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Yeah, I think emotional shorthand is on the right track. It's significant from a psycho-analytic perspective that these images are in effect acting out the emotional responses, feeling for you so to speak. Much in the same way a laugh track isn't just telling you what's funny but also "laughing for you," so you can just sit and vegetate in front of the screen. In this hobby of ours there's a strong desire to make connections to others and somehow experience what others are hearing in an otherwise isolated event of listening via headphones. This way folks can participate without actually moving from their seats and going to meets. It's the same underlying mechanism behind unboxing videos: someone sees an unboxing and lives the experience of consumerism through the person making it.
I think it's also significant that most of these GIFs are cultural references and symbology in and of themselves, so there's this added meme subtext. It's a sort of comforting familiarity and further means of belonging to a particular subculture.
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That's also kind of the rub. It appeals to that subculture, but instantly turns off a large chunk of us.
It really does tie perfectly into the concept of mutual admiration. I don't fault people for it, a lot of people end up on forums needing that kind of support (I think.)
Here's the best Dan I could whip up in a couple minutes:
http://www.head-fi.org/products/audeze-lcd2-planar-magnetic-headphones/reviews/10517
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Off topic, but what's up with these "discovery threads" and people---I'm assuming younger, less experienced people---posting tons and tons of animated GIFs to try and communicate their experience?
This behavior is becoming quite prevalent in many online communities, especially ones that attract younger people. It's been interesting watching it develop over the years and moving from shady/seedy/weird sites to, well, everything. I'm sure you could write a lengthy, varied analysis on it all...the history of it, how it supplements and sometimes replaces regular language, how improvements in networking and other hardware/software technology allowed it to spread, etc.
I'm wondering if there's some hidden repository of GIFs that people pull from when posting like this. I'd get tired of posting images all the time even if I built up my own collection, I think.
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hello,
discourse is dead, all that's left are stock photos.
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Too lazy to make a long post atm, but I think it comes down to the internet's userbase expanding faster than ever.
There was a time when only people who had to or seriously wanted to express themselves online were found on message boards. Now, though, there are people who stumbled in through Reddit, FaceBook, Twitter, YouTube, etc. who see meme images far removed from their original context and think "that's the internet!" So they're more "internetting" instead of using the internet for some end.
Iuno how well that applies to Head-Fi, but it totally comes into play when i watch my mother and her friends use FaceBook or people who have never, like, been part of a real online community using a site like Reddit. It shows in how shallow and vapid most of the largest YT stars are -- they're not being dumb, just all-inclusive.
-Edit-
I have friends who would consider my post here a "tl;dr". They're not stupid or illiterate. Hell, one of the ones I have in mind actually reads a lot more often than I do. This behavior of mine is literally just foreign to them.
I have another friend who's been a bit bummed due to a lack of people in his life who share his level of interest in fighting games. I've often suggested he "just join SRK or something", but some mental block keeps him from doing such. It's just not a viable form of friend-making for him. He will passively read /v/, though, and post the occasional meme image.
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(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/20/200cfe185986bfe464b701f445f9f12a8082689237e97697007a20078a2863cd.jpg)
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hello,
awesome!
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(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/anthony-davis-unibrow-meme.jpg)
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I didn't like them either. I returned them the day after I got them. I did put them on a similar level with the headphones whose sound signature I didn't like in the first place, like the K545 and W1000X (though I think my pair of W1000X's were defective...the right driver blew the week I bought it), but I think even $90 is a bit much for them. I prefer even my Portapros to the Mikros. I wanted to be much meaner about them in the other thread, but they really don't like when people don't praise them, so leaving them be seemed like the better option.
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I'm giving it a shot. I don't think $70 would kill me. But, I can always return them (restocking fee, etc.)... walk the plank2
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There is so much hype about this , I am not sure if OP got a defective one or shills are just hyping it.
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^ Perhaps both?
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Possible I had a defective can. Might explain the channel imbalance. The lack of bass was present on both channels though.
If someone else wants to ship their cans for measurements, your more than welcome! :)p7
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^^ Yeah, if anyone here would admit to having them. Oh, that makes me one. I wouldn't mind lending it for measurements, provided you're not too far away. :)p7
The shill hype is pretty rampant. But then again, it's like the same 5 people posting in that thread continually.
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PM sent :)
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Does the pads make it difficult to measure and also reason for lack of bass in measurement ?
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To some extent.
I measured them on a flat and non-leaky baffle (like I did with most closed cans and my last electrostatic measurements) given the pads seem to be designed for seal. This should avoid excessive bass loss. But as you can see from the results, the bass measured quite below the rest of the spectrum.
These cans were actually quite consistent for any given orientation (measured like 10 times per headband orientation). As long as I kept the orientation roughly the same, I got quite repetitive results. The largest variation happened in the bass area as the headband got moved towards the "front". This was quite obvious in listening impressions as well. The bass fills in.
What I think happens is that the pads get squeezed as the headband moves forward, reducing the air gap the driver has to drive which in turn may increase bass.
However, they were still lean sounding (and measuring).
I brought my KSC-75s to my friend and after some quick comparos it was quite obvious to both of us that the bass of the Mikros 90 was bellow that of the Koss cans. Since I have the cheapy Parts-Express headband, my friend was a bit shocked at what he perceived better tone balance (and overall sound quality) from a much more humble looking headphone.
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It was probably plugged into the liquid lightning. Normally its deadpan flat down to 20.
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:)p13 Should have used one of those Kavalli Gilmore Super Sacred High Virginity amps. Like the O2+ODAC, wire-with-gain, only moar.
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The cans that I measured could have been defective. If someone has an extra pair, I have no problem giving them another shot :)p2
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I have a pair I could send you. I'd be very curious to see how it measures too, because my pair actually has a very healthy bass response. When I first got it, on first listen I was like 'sheesh!!! the bass is crazy big'... so I'm wondering too if your pair has something wrong.
Overall, I am certainly not behind this headphone like that ridiculous hyping thread! To me the biggest problem is that there's sort of a congested nature to the upper mids and treble. I think it's pretty good as a portable, but if I'd paid $200-300 I think I'd be pretty hacked off. At $75 though it's a decent pick up.
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PM sent, and thank you very much! :)p5 Hopefully we'll get to the fat behind of this.
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PM sent, and thank you very much! :)p5 Hopefully we'll get to the fat behind of this.
I think you might have had a defective one too, but that other hype thread is just way out there with some of their claims. I seem to be the only voice of dissension (or reason). At $70, it's great, but I'd be pissed if I spent $100+ on them.
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Got cn11 Mikros 90 in. Thanks mang! :)p5. To me the cans do seem to have bass in them, but perhaps less than other cans I have around with me. I tried some tunes, and even some test tones @ 500, 100, and 40 Hz. All the tones were perceivable in the Mikros, but 100 and 40 sounded a little attenuated vs what I got w other cans like my KSC-75s and HD600s.
Here are the mesurement results I got:
FR
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5933;image)
CSD right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5935;image)
CSD left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5937;image)
Distortion right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5943;image)
Distortion left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=5945;image)
These don't seem to have that much of channel imbalance. Again, the bass is there, just a little attenuated. These are also a little hard to measure, positional sensitive, and require good seal, so that is that.
Marv is giving them a shot too.
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Is it ringing at 4k & 6k
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4k might be OK. 6k ringing is more scary. I just got these in from UB. Will take a listen.
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I tried it because I haven't found a portable I enjoy. If you like some Grados (SRs except for 325is) and need more isolation, you might enjoy these. They're a little bright and colored, so guitar and vocals sound pretty good but not piano or orchestra.
Position is important as ultrabike's measurements show. Based on their sounding better toward the front of the ear, maybe the blue line should be considered the true measurement. They also need a lot of burn in for the brightness to subside enough.
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When you say you have the headband tilted forward to get moar bass, how much are we talking? Do you have to wear the headphones like a Geordi visor?
(http://images.quickblogcast.com/8/2/8/8/2/238726-228828/GeordiLaForgeairfilter.jpg?a=1)
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8) Funny. I hadn't tried that. I would say at most an inch.
The bass improved but the bigger improvement is they sound more open with the sound angled into the ear. There's a trade off in loss of isolation. But they're still somewhat bright and genre-specific.
They make treble-rich rock sound good, but I needed something more versatile for portable use because I wouldn't carry more than one pair with me and switch based on the genre.
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Just adding cn11's Mikros 90 impedance plot...
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1443.0;attach=6044;image)
Fairly close to the ~26 ohm impedance claimed in the specs. Could be I did something wrong but seems fairly resistive. The 3 to 4 kHz driver resonances are a bit interesting.
Also, cn11 provided an Auvio (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=19732556) 3.5mm cable that works great as a replacement/alternative cable for these.
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so whats the verdict on these? good, not?
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so whats the verdict on these? good, not?
Only if you want/need a closed Grado.
Materials and accessories are quite good, but build quality is suspect at best. So buy only if it's cheap.