CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: ultrabike on November 05, 2013, 06:17:52 AM
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Here are some measurements for one of the Alpha Dogs available at the meet. I believe these were originally demoed from the LG.
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1208.0;attach=4421;image)
CSD right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1208.0;attach=4423;image)
CSD left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1208.0;attach=4425;image)
While I didn't demo these with my own material, I don't think I heard the null between 3 and 4 kHz in the right driver with Dan's music. I felt these had pretty good bass and mids. Some felt these were a tad bright, but I feel they were pretty good in that regard. Perhaps there was a bit of lack of air, but consider these are closed cans. Pretty clean CSDs even in the location of the right driver null.
I like the looks of these quite a bit.
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Looks like the 3-5kHz behaviour in the FR for BOTH channels is not worrisome, as shown in the CSDs where they are smoothed over actually.
These measure very well, though the apparent channel imbalance is worrisome. That 4dB difference between 4kHz and 8kHz will probably drive a discerning owner crazy.
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Probably something was going on with that right driver. I also measured these a few times with sort of consistent results. Moving the cans a bit off center however filled out the null.
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Wooooah, what's with those measurements?
I have the tour pair of ADs in front of me and I honestly can't say I hear that severe of a dip in the 4k area. I also can't really hear the channel mismatch either.
Regarding the "brightness", that's one of those personal taste things, IMO. They're definitely brighter than the Mad Dog (and seem to lack a bit of high frequency extension), but they aren't quite as bright as my Stax SR-202 with 507 pads.
I think I've come to a realization that as much as I like the Alpha Dog's more neutral presentation, they're also a bit more harsh than the MD (Keep in mind both are being driven from an O2 with OPA2134 opamp) and I could imagine them getting slightly fatiguing after a long-ish listening session.
Just my $.02. I'll probably upgrade my Mad Dogs eventually once he starts processing upgrades.
They are indeed quite pretty though.
[Not sure how to link photos effectively, so I guess I'll just leave my photo off for now.]
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The null seemed a bit cup positional sensitive, but did not go away, affected only the right cup, and was around 3 to 5 kHz. Maybe something to do with seal + cup shape on that particular channel. Perhaps some positional sensitivity with the design.
The tuning goal seems neutral, within the possible limitations of the driver. I agree they are probably brighter than the Mad Dogs, but definitively not annoyingly so... at least for me.
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Ummm. I'm not sure why everyone is trying to justify the FR. Sure, maybe they sound decent, but $600 for that kind of channel imbalance? That is inexcusable in my mind. Considering how easy it is to rapid prototype cups (granted the R&D had to take a long time, so I have to give credit there), that price is not even remotely justified.
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Ummm. I'm not sure why everyone is trying to justify the FR. Sure, maybe they sound decent, but $600 for that kind of channel imbalance? That is inexcusable in my mind. Considering how easy it is to rapid prototype cups (granted the R&D had to take a long time, so I have to give credit there), that price is not even remotely justified.
This.
I didn't like the mad dogs 3.2 and I have a feeling I won't like the alpha dogs. Ill have a chance to try them out this weekend at the NYC head-fi meet to hear for myself though. :boom:
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Ummm. I'm not sure why everyone is trying to justify the FR. Sure, maybe they sound decent, but $600 for that kind of channel imbalance? That is inexcusable in my mind. Considering how easy it is to rapid prototype cups (granted the R&D had to take a long time, so I have to give credit there), that price is not even remotely justified.
FWIW, Marv had difficulties measuring my MD 3.2 when I sent them in (same pads as AD). I'm not saying this particular AD and other ADs can't exhibit what's seen here, but it's worth keeping in mind. I also think Dan said his tolerance is...2 or 3dB? Don't quote me on that. I'd hope that would mean it would be very unlikely a pair actually came out looking like this, as this example would exceed that on this setup. Though I suppose if he meant +/- 2-3dB from a reference curve, 4-6dB channel differences could be possible in an absolute worst case scenario. *shrug*
I'm on the AD "tour," so I'll hear them for myself soonish.
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The MD3.2 difficulties were the result of the pads being squished in the box too tightly. I was able to get better results the next day. Also, one driver was off with intermittent connection issues - that's why I was getting different measurements every time on it.
The alpha dog graphs above are consistent with what I heard. No ringing nastiness, but a bit of glare and hardness to the treble not unlike the HD800's 6kHz peak.
As far as the imbalance, take the measurements with a grain of salt. It was meet conditions and hardly ideal for perfect exacting placement / alignment of the cups on the coupler. Also the T50RP drivers tend to be not very well matched. It's just a fact of life with any of the T50RP mods.
P.S. I moved this thread to where only registered members can see it. I don't think it needs to be out the in public space yet because sometimes people get confused.
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Yeah, I could see one driver just not having a good seal or something like that.
Hmm, so is that why I've heard people saying the AD "sounds like" the HD800 Purrin?
@Hans: Is your shipping info correct in the PM chain for the AD tour? I believe I'm sending the ADs out today to you.
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I'll PM you.
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Yeah, I could see one driver just not having a good seal or something like that.
Hmm, so is that why I've heard people saying the AD "sounds like" the HD800 Purrin?
LOL. I haven't heard that one yet "AD sounds like the HD800" (I un-subbed from the HF thread - too much noise), but I would say that assessment is accurate. When I had my first sneak peek with the Vali, it was with the Alpha Dogs (courtesy of Dan) and Jason's HD800 (which I modded for him.)
The AD definitely has that stock HD800 hardness / peak at 6k and almost the same level of overall brightness in mid-treble. It doesn't have as much last octave air as the HD800 though, but we all know the T50RP driver isn't very capable of that.
It could come down to amp pairing though. The Schiit stuff is more forward and aggressive than some people would like. I would imagine the Burson HA160 (one of Dan's demo amps) or LG (with certain tubes - another of Dan's demo amps) being a good match for the AD.
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Yeah, I could see one driver just not having a good seal or something like that.
Hmm, so is that why I've heard people saying the AD "sounds like" the HD800 Purrin?
LOL. I haven't heard that one yet "AD sounds like the HD800" (I un-subbed from the HF thread - too much noise), but I would say that assessment is accurate. When I had my first sneak peek with the Vali, it was with the Alpha Dogs (courtesy of Dan) and Jason's HD800 (which I modded for him.)
The AD definitely has that stock HD800 hardness / peak at 6k and almost the same level of overall brightness in mid-treble. It doesn't have as much last octave air as the HD800 though, but we all know the T50RP driver isn't very capable of that.
It could come down to amp pairing though. The Schiit stuff is more forward and aggressive than some people would like. I would imagine the Burson HA160 (one of Dan's demo amps) or LG (with certain tubes - another of Dan's demo amps) being a good match for the AD.
Yeah, that's what a few people were saying when they first heard the Alpha Dogs. I don't remember the HD800 well enough to make a comparison though. That would make sense, considering we thought the treble lacked some air and sounded a bit off.
Also, the H-F thread is ridiculous. A bunch of people are asking for reviews and comparisons with Headphone X and all sorts of BS like that, and then when people do actually post reviews, everyone ignores them and then it gets brought back up a few pages later.
And if I may say, the cable and headphone stand do have room for improvement. That's all I'll say on that...
Good that you mention that, Dan PM'd me and said that the AD scales well with better amps. He said he would try and get up here to the next Seattle meet so us starving college student types could hear them with either his Burson or Cavalli.
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Yeah, I could see one driver just not having a good seal or something like that.
Hmm, so is that why I've heard people saying the AD "sounds like" the HD800 Purrin?
LOL. I haven't heard that one yet "AD sounds like the HD800" (I un-subbed from the HF thread - too much noise), but I would say that assessment is accurate. When I had my first sneak peek with the Vali, it was with the Alpha Dogs (courtesy of Dan) and Jason's HD800 (which I modded for him.)
The AD definitely has that stock HD800 hardness / peak at 6k and almost the same level of overall brightness in mid-treble. It doesn't have as much last octave air as the HD800 though, but we all know the T50RP driver isn't very capable of that.
It could come down to amp pairing though. The Schiit stuff is more forward and aggressive than some people would like. I would imagine the Burson HA160 (one of Dan's demo amps) or LG (with certain tubes - another of Dan's demo amps) being a good match for the AD.
Yeah, that's what a few people were saying when they first heard the Alpha Dogs. I don't remember the HD800 well enough to make a comparison though. That would make sense, considering we thought the treble lacked some air and sounded a bit off.
Also, the H-F thread is ridiculous. A bunch of people are asking for reviews and comparisons with Headphone X and all sorts of BS like that, and then when people do actually post reviews, everyone ignores them and then it gets brought back up a few pages later.
And if I may say, the cable and headphone stand do have room for improvement. That's all I'll say on that...
Good that you mention that, Dan PM'd me and said that the AD scales well with better amps. He said he would try and get up here to the next Seattle meet so us starving college student types could hear them with either his Burson or Cavalli.
Confirmation bias at its finest. Many people want these to be the end-all of headphones, as such anything neutral~negative is filtered out, and positive information is corralled upon. It's human nature.
Specifically, a bunch of people in the HF thread are actively seeking all-positive impressions of the cans, not just any impression.
Of course it goes the other way too, e.g. there's another bunch of people in the HF AD thread trying to get AD owners to belittle the ADs against LCD2.
At this point that thread is nothing more than social psychology at play. :)p13
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I've been able to read a few good impressions in the HF thread, but I also feel like there's an awful amount of noise in that thread.
That said, I'd like to direct a question toward jerg and purrin. I enjoy the MD more than any other headphone I've used so far, but I would prefer an even more neutral response. There's just a bit too little treble on the MD. Does the AD improve upon this a bit and does it sound better/cleaner than the MD?
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I've been able to read a few good impressions in the HF thread, but I also feel like there's an awful amount of noise in that thread.
That said, I'd like to direct a question toward jerg and purrin. I enjoy the MD more than any other headphone I've used so far, but I would prefer an even more neutral response. There's just a bit too little treble on the MD. Does the AD improve upon this a bit and does it sound better/cleaner than the MD?
I'm not jerg or purrin, but I'd say there's definitely more treble in the AD, and that it does sound "cleaner" to my ears.
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I've been able to read a few good impressions in the HF thread, but I also feel like there's an awful amount of noise in that thread.
That said, I'd like to direct a question toward jerg and purrin. I enjoy the MD more than any other headphone I've used so far, but I would prefer an even more neutral response. There's just a bit too little treble on the MD. Does the AD improve upon this a bit and does it sound better/cleaner than the MD?
I'm not jerg or purrin, but I'd say there's definitely more treble in the AD, and that it does sound "cleaner" to my ears.
Sure enough. But you and I have already talked about that, so I already knew you felt that way. I just want to see if I can get a consensus on that between at least two or three people whose ears I think I can trust. So far, I've got one.
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I've been able to read a few good impressions in the HF thread, but I also feel like there's an awful amount of noise in that thread.
That said, I'd like to direct a question toward jerg and purrin. I enjoy the MD more than any other headphone I've used so far, but I would prefer an even more neutral response. There's just a bit too little treble on the MD. Does the AD improve upon this a bit and does it sound better/cleaner than the MD?
I totally understand where you are coming from with the latest MD. It's just a tad too laid back for my tastes. The AD does improve on this and probably goes slightly too much in the other direction. The AD sounds totally different in presentation. Faster, more articulated, greater macro-detail, micro-detail even. But I don't think I can get past the AD's treble hardness and glare which were not present on the MD. It's not a major or even moderate level flaw, but I'm just less much tolerate of stuff that like these days, especially with longer listening sessions.
I'd give it some time. Mr. Speakers has improved his MD's over time to the point where I feel his latest MD sounds pretty darn good. This will likely happen with the AD.
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I've been able to read a few good impressions in the HF thread, but I also feel like there's an awful amount of noise in that thread.
That said, I'd like to direct a question toward jerg and purrin. I enjoy the MD more than any other headphone I've used so far, but I would prefer an even more neutral response. There's just a bit too little treble on the MD. Does the AD improve upon this a bit and does it sound better/cleaner than the MD?
I totally understand where you are coming from with the latest MD. It's just a tad too laid back for my tastes. The AD does improve on this and probably goes slightly too much in the other direction. The AD sounds totally different in presentation. Faster, more articulated, greater macro-detail, micro-detail even. But I don't think I can get past the AD's treble hardness and glare which were not present on the MD. It's not a major or even moderate level flaw, but I'm just less much tolerate of stuff that like these days, especially with longer listening sessions.
I'd give it some time. Mr. Speakers has improved his MD's over time to the point where I feel his latest MD sounds pretty darn good. This will likely happen with the AD.
Alright. I'll consider that before I decide whether or not I want to buy them soon. The thing is, if I purchase them soon, I want them to arrive around Christmas time. And since Dan is working on filling approx. 6 weeks worth of back orders, that means I need to make a decision within a week or so. I'm not sure whether the treble issue would be quite as problematic to me as it is to you, so I'll have to think about it.
Thank you for your input.
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You can always EQ and drop 6kHz a few db.
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There's also the Paradox, which to my ears is more neutral than the Mad Dogs without being too bright. LFF's new Slants were honestly the best commercially available T50RP mod I'd ever heard.
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Agreed. Don't overlook the Paradox Slants. I tend not to make specific recommendations for Paradox because LFF is a close friend.
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but I would prefer an even more neutral response.
Paradox... ;)
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I think the Slants are just a bit above my budget. It's between a standard (probably unpainted, since that would save some money) Paradox and the more expensive AD. I'll consider the Paradox as well, though.
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I just ordered a Slant recently. When I checked they had a bone stock Paradox ready to go out the door, just needed a buyer. You should see if it's still available!
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SHIP! You were the guy who bought the demo pair of slants, weren't you?
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Not sure. I just chatted LFF up about Paradox and Slants... he let me know what kind of stock they had around and it just so happened they had a Slant that sounded like the perfect set up for me so I asked him to put it aside so I can buy it. It might have been them... :-[
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I've been able to read a few good impressions in the HF thread, but I also feel like there's an awful amount of noise in that thread.
That said, I'd like to direct a question toward jerg and purrin. I enjoy the MD more than any other headphone I've used so far, but I would prefer an even more neutral response. There's just a bit too little treble on the MD. Does the AD improve upon this a bit and does it sound better/cleaner than the MD?
Yes and yes...
I'm definitely on the AD bandwagon!! :D Is it the end all be all phone? Nope... in fact... ermmm... I'm actually enjoying the Shure SRH1540s more than the ADs at the moment... (and they are lighter and more comfortable... The only "con", just too "bassy" as of now... yeah... Shure... close can ... bassy... Think SRH840s with a bit more sub-bass, more detailed, and cleaner...)
Still I feel that the ADs convey a more natural sound especially through the mids... but that's just my opinion. (Love vocals, acoustic work on the ADs!)
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Got the tour AD in today. Only real complaint from a very brief listen is that they do indeed sound a bit harsh. EQing down around 5.5-6KHz and 10KHz based on these measurements and the ones Dan released really seems to help.
I think most people would not have an issue with it, and most of my listening material isn't exactly what I'd call smooth (metal).
The HE-500 with Jergpads has similar problems around 8-10KHz, though to a lesser extent. Not a huge deal for either headphone, really. With a bit of EQ, the AD really does sound quite good.
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Got the tour AD in today. Only real complaint from a very brief listen is that they do indeed sound a bit harsh. EQing down around 5.5-6KHz and 10KHz based on these measurements and the ones Dan released really seems to help.
I listen to a good amount of aggressive music so this gives me some pause.
Have you heard the Paradox or Slant? Are those more agreeable in that region?
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Got the tour AD in today. Only real complaint from a very brief listen is that they do indeed sound a bit harsh. EQing down around 5.5-6KHz and 10KHz based on these measurements and the ones Dan released really seems to help.
I listen to a good amount of aggressive music so this gives me some pause.
Have you heard the Paradox or Slant? Are those more agreeable in that region?
It's been a while since I had a Paradox, and it was an earlier unit (socks held the pads on). I've almost always EQed the Paradox and Mad Dog...hell, most T50RPs, really. I find myself having to EQ the AD more, but it's not an issue if you don't mind that.
I'm not sure what sort of progressive music you're referring to. If it's something like Opeth, Dream Theater, BTBAM, Porcupine Tree...the heavier sections can be a bit hard to listen to without EQ, assuming you listen fairly loudly like I do.
I have not heard the Slant, though I am interested in it.
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I'm listening to these more, and the treble problems are unfortunate because they sound really good with a bit of EQ and are a bit too harsh for my ears otherwise. But for anyone that doesn't mind using EQ, I think I would recommend them.
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Got the tour AD in today. Only real complaint from a very brief listen is that they do indeed sound a bit harsh. EQing down around 5.5-6KHz and 10KHz based on these measurements and the ones Dan released really seems to help.
I think most people would not have an issue with it, and most of my listening material isn't exactly what I'd call smooth (metal).
The HE-500 with Jergpads has similar problems around 8-10KHz, though to a lesser extent. Not a huge deal for either headphone, really. With a bit of EQ, the AD really does sound quite good.
Sorry but I gotta ask, which revision of Jergpad are you equipping the HE500s with? It's just that there has been a ton of iterations done on the mod itself over the past many months and I think the resulting sound has changed (hopefully for the better) since the early days of this mod.
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Got the tour AD in today. Only real complaint from a very brief listen is that they do indeed sound a bit harsh. EQing down around 5.5-6KHz and 10KHz based on these measurements and the ones Dan released really seems to help.
I think most people would not have an issue with it, and most of my listening material isn't exactly what I'd call smooth (metal).
The HE-500 with Jergpads has similar problems around 8-10KHz, though to a lesser extent. Not a huge deal for either headphone, really. With a bit of EQ, the AD really does sound quite good.
Sorry but I gotta ask, which revision of Jergpad are you equipping the HE500s with? It's just that there has been a ton of iterations done on the mod itself over the past many months and I think the resulting sound has changed (hopefully for the better) since the early days of this mod.
Everything except holes on the outside of the pad. Don't Marv's measurement's show a spike around there relative to the mids before? Probably not an issue for most, but stuff like that bothers me. (I'd probably like the LCD-2 if I heard it.)
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Got the tour AD in today. Only real complaint from a very brief listen is that they do indeed sound a bit harsh. EQing down around 5.5-6KHz and 10KHz based on these measurements and the ones Dan released really seems to help.
I think most people would not have an issue with it, and most of my listening material isn't exactly what I'd call smooth (metal).
The HE-500 with Jergpads has similar problems around 8-10KHz, though to a lesser extent. Not a huge deal for either headphone, really. With a bit of EQ, the AD really does sound quite good.
Sorry but I gotta ask, which revision of Jergpad are you equipping the HE500s with? It's just that there has been a ton of iterations done on the mod itself over the past many months and I think the resulting sound has changed (hopefully for the better) since the early days of this mod.
Everything except holes on the outside of the pad. Don't Marv's measurement's show a spike around there relative to the mids before? Probably not an issue for most, but stuff like that bothers me. (I'd probably like the LCD-2 if I heard it.)
If you really don't like the slight treble emphasis relative to upper mids, you could do the felt-disc mod. Just get a thin felt disc, cut it out to be the exact same diameter as the driver, cut in holes where the screws secure the drivers, and then just sandwich it in between the drivers and the plastic ring/screw assembly between earpads and drivers. Conveniently HE300s have this foam disc, so someone with both the 300 and 500 could just transfer the disc over.
It simply pushes down the entire treble range by quite a bit, but bass and mids don't seem affected at all. Might take a hit on airiness and upper treble detail extraction but it might be the tonal balance you are looking for.
I used the foam disc mod + jergpads for quite a while actually, really loved the sound. But in the end I was thirsty for airiness so I popped the discs out. Might put em back in in the future when I want the dark treble again.
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Do you know of a good material that would work? While I do have foam discs (a common mod I do to headphones), they are all too small. When I put them "in" the pad, as in it was on top of the pad's mesh lining and the foam edges would go under the pads, the ones I tried stifled the sound too much. The treble was partially tamed, but the bass and mids also sounded softer as well. Your method of sandwiching it under the pads might work better, and/or your material might be better.
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Do you know of a good material that would work? While I do have foam discs (a common mod I do to headphones), they are all too small. When I put them "in" the pad, as in it was on top of the pad's mesh lining and the foam edges would go under the pads, the ones I tried stifled the sound too much. The treble was partially tamed, but the bass and mids also sounded softer as well. Your method of sandwiching it under the pads might work better, and/or your material might be better.
https://www.google.ca/search?newwindow=1&espv=210&es_sm=122&biw=1920&bih=955&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=felt+material&oq=felt+material&gs_l=img.3..0l3j0i5j0i24l6.19157.19865.0.20077.8.7.0.0.0.0.184.739.3j4.7.0....0...1c.1.31.img..4.4.421.WfBWJzc8RsY
You can just buy a bunch of thicknesses, easily cut out a bunch of them at once with a template, and do some tests to find whichever that attenuated the treble the most suitably for you. I just took the shortcut and used the pre-made felt discs in my HE300s.
Edit: you made me curious again and I just installed the felt discs back in. So now it's open grills + jergpads + HE300 felt discs (with a little slit cut out in the middle to accommodate for the steel strut of HE500 drivers). Sounds as good as I remembered actually, and surprisingly not too negatively affected in the airiness department.
Edit2: went back to no felt disc. There seems to be too much lower treble suppression with these particular discs that causes treble to sound hollowed out.
Edit3: went back to the discs again...after checking with a ton more music, the treble change does not bother me much anymore. On the other hand, I noted a pretty dramatic improvement to bass, specifically how tight/growl-y it becomes with the felt. I don't really know how the felt could do this...some sort of diffusing effect? damping of backwaves in the closed face/driver space?
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just got to hear the alpha doges - they're great.
not sure if pair was vastly different or anything but it didn't have such weird channel imbalance this pair. something about the upper mids but that's kind of nitpicking. awesome closed headphones.
good detail level, good imaging, pretty good balance, not perfect but very impressive overall.
good seal makes a pretty big difference I noticed though.
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Edit3: went back to the discs again...after checking with a ton more music, the treble change does not bother me much anymore. On the other hand, I noted a pretty dramatic improvement to bass, specifically how tight/growl-y it becomes with the felt. I don't really know how the felt could do this...some sort of diffusing effect? damping of backwaves in the closed face/driver space?
Haha, I like the back and forth! I can also vouch for felt changing bass in positive ways (including what you mentioned) when placed in front of the driver. Hell, front driver damping, even with just felt, can do a whole lot more than you'd expect.
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FWIW, I posted my lengthy thoughts on the Alpha Dog in that big thread in the land of the Fi-Heads. Main points:
- Seems to have a smoother, flatter response up till 1KHz or so than the Mad Dog. Could be wrong, but it's no worse at the very least. Does seem to have better clarity and control, most noticeably in the bass for me. For example, the bass drum had a stronger, more defined kick to it and the bass guitar was easier to pick out of the music (a tad fuzzy sounding on the Mad Dog).
- The emphasized points around 5.5-6KHz and 10KHz just did not sit well with me. I find the Mad Dog is actually very close in line with my tastes. It doesn't actually sound too laid-back to me, but I'm on the somewhat younger side of the spectrum and have never been too fond of uneven and/or emphasized treble. It took me a few years to figure out that was one of the aspects of certain headphones I didn't like but otherwise couldn't explain why (lots of thanks to this site for helping with that). But, realistically, I think the Alpha Dog should have been tuned right in between the Mad Dog 3.2 and what the AD actually is.
- EQ does wonders for the Alpha Dog. I really, really enjoyed listening to them like that, but otherwise it's just too much (makes it a bit useless for games and, say, online music streaming services, as I found it hard to tolerate without EQ).
- The overall look and finish of the Alpha Dog was really nice. Felt like a premium product for the most part. I liked the included extras and didn't mind that the stand required one to remove the cables and lower the headband height.
Very close, but just not quite there. I know Dan said he didn't plan to revise the Alpha Dog, but we'll see...(hoping he does because I liked everything else about it so well)
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FWIW, I posted my lengthy thoughts on the Alpha Dog in that big thread in the land of the Fi-Heads. Main points:
- Seems to have a smoother, flatter response up till 1KHz or so than the Mad Dog. Could be wrong, but it's no worse at the very least. Does seem to have better clarity and control, most noticeably in the bass for me. For example, the bass drum had a stronger, more defined kick to it and the bass guitar was easier to pick out of the music (a tad fuzzy sounding on the Mad Dog).
- The emphasized points around 5.5-6KHz and 10KHz just did not sit well with me. I find the Mad Dog is actually very close in line with my tastes. It doesn't actually sound too laid-back to me, but I'm on the somewhat younger side of the spectrum and have never been too fond of uneven and/or emphasized treble. It took me a few years to figure out that was one of the aspects of certain headphones I didn't like but otherwise couldn't explain why (lots of thanks to this site for helping with that). But, realistically, I think the Alpha Dog should have been tuned right in between the Mad Dog 3.2 and what the AD actually is.
- EQ does wonders for the Alpha Dog. I really, really enjoyed listening to them like that, but otherwise it's just too much (makes it a bit useless for games and, say, online music streaming services, as I found it hard to tolerate without EQ).
- The overall look and finish of the Alpha Dog was really nice. Felt like a premium product for the most part. I liked the included extras and didn't mind that the stand required one to remove the cables and lower the headband height.
Very close, but just not quite there. I know Dan said he didn't plan to revise the Alpha Dog, but we'll see...(hoping he does because I liked everything else about it so well)
Maybe someone will mod the modded headphones lol. "___(insert username)"mod for Alpha Dogs.
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Maybe someone will mod the modded headphones lol. "___(insert username)"mod for Alpha Dogs.
Fostex T50RP drivers are simply fantastic. I am not kidding, these deserve true admiration. I can attest that once you get rid of those ridiculous cups, put these drivers into well damped (wood) cups and get hold of some Alpha pads, you will be able to reach audiophile level.
I did own and sell some HE-500s and Paradox, but I will ALWAYS hold on to my Fostex Alpha Woodies. It seems such a nondescript driver, but it is able to produce world-class audio bliss at a price that everyone can afford.
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Maybe someone will mod the modded headphones lol. "___(insert username)"mod for Alpha Dogs.
Fostex T50RP drivers are simply fantastic. I am not kidding, these deserve true admiration. I can attest that once you get rid of those ridiculous cups, put these drivers into well damped (wood) cups and get hold of some Alpha pads, you will be able to reach audiophile level.
I did own and sell some HE-500s and Paradox, but I will ALWAYS hold on to my Fostex Alpha Woodies. It seems such a nondescript driver, but it is able to produce world-class audio bliss at a price that everyone can afford.
Oi! Pics pretty please.
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Oi! Pics pretty please.
This
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/915783/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL)
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just got to hear the alpha doges - they're great.
not sure if pair was vastly different or anything but it didn't have such weird channel imbalance this pair. something about the upper mids but that's kind of nitpicking. awesome closed headphones.
good detail level, good imaging, pretty good balance, not perfect but very impressive overall.
good seal makes a pretty big difference I noticed though.
Glad you enjoyed, they truly are my favorite closed headphones, and the Paradox did not quite hold its own against them as you heard for yourself the other day. I also agree that seal is tremendously important for its performance. I've not noticed any channel imbalance whereas I did with my past HE500's two years back.
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Glad you enjoyed, they truly are my favorite closed headphones, and the Paradox did not quite hold its own against them as you heard for yourself the other day. I also agree that seal is tremendously important for its performance. I've not noticed any channel imbalance whereas I did with my past HE500's two years back.
yeah, thanks for stopping by! :) will be trying to hear them on a better amp - the M^3 we used is still a bit of a WIP. I think they should have better imaging/soundstage/whatever with a better amp, right?
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Glad you enjoyed, they truly are my favorite closed headphones, and the Paradox did not quite hold its own against them as you heard for yourself the other day. I also agree that seal is tremendously important for its performance. I've not noticed any channel imbalance whereas I did with my past HE500's two years back.
yeah, thanks for stopping by! :) will be trying to hear them on a better amp - the M^3 we used is still a bit of a WIP. I think they should have better imaging/soundstage/whatever with a better amp, right?
I find the Alpha Dogs fantastic and all, but I'm not sure if it will scale to much higher performances. I have yet to try it on the McIntosh :-X
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The T50RP in general seems to scale really well, so it's very possible you could get more out of them, munch.
Also, in regards to channel imbalance, I did not have an issue if the pads were sealed correctly. Getting the pads to seal correctly was a different story, but they were a bit deformed and squished from being in the box after shipment. With a good seal, I found the FR to be much more in line with what ultrabike's right channel measurements show - less bass roll-off, harsher treble.
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As noted the measurement environment was not at all ideal and that channel imbalance is not something we would have let by.
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While the measurement environment was not ideal, I don't think that what were are seeing here is a result of that. Consider the FR results of the right driver from the HE-6 also at the same meet, and taken at different times and re-couplings:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1208.0;attach=4613;image)
The measurement coupling is flat, which allows for more repeatable measurements. Also note that the HE-6s are open and therefore isolate less from non-ideal meet conditions.
I feel the main culprit is that the Alpha Dogs cans are fairly position sensitive. This has been hinted before. This may be partly a result of the pads used by these cans which are not designed for sound absorption, but for seal.
Here is a second set of measurements with the drivers aligned differently relative to the mic:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1208.0;attach=4621;image)
The null at the right channel remains. However, the mic is probably closer to one edge of the pads which might account for the upper-mids null's frequency change to a higher frequency (shorter wavelength - distance to pads). The position change also seems to have an effect on the left driver. However, for some reason the left driver does not seem to develop as deep a null as the right driver. To further illustrate, here is a comparison of the measurements for each individual driver with the different mic/driver orientations
Right channel
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1208.0;attach=4623;image)
Left channel
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1208.0;attach=4625;image)
Again, IMO these measurements show that the AD are perhaps fairly positional sensitive relative to other cans. In regards to comments about square wave response during the meet, they are a function of the frequency response. Based on what I've seen, 30 Hz square waves might look great. However, 300 Hz square waves from these cans would probably be a little more distorted.
All these said, I don't think these are bad headphones at all. The factory tuning is relatively neutral, though perhaps a little tilted to the treble, which did not bother me at all.
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All these said, I don't think these are bad headphones at all. The factory tuning is relatively neutral, though perhaps a little tilted to the treble, which did not bother me at all.
I thought they were quite good overall, but also the treble response might be a bit too uneven and peaky for anyone with tastes and/or hearing sensitivities similar to mine (as I've repeatedly stated). I can't say for sure, but I might have liked them more even if the treble response was made smoother without being lowered at all as a whole.
The additional breakdown of the measurements is particularly interesting to me around the 5-6KHz spot with the variations between the two drivers and in the two left channel measurements. I had some trouble identifying the exact spot of the peak in that area, and now I'm wondering if it potentially had anything to do with very slight channel imbalances and/or placement on my head. I had the most trouble getting the left pad to seal. It was also more deformed looking than the right one (noticeably closer to the bottom of the pad), even after they had a day outside of their box. I didn't have that problem with my Mad Dog, and I'm assuming that's not a regular occurrence and more likely due to it being passed around by a lot of people, constantly being repackaged and opened, etc.
Once they were properly sealed, I can't say I had any problems with channel imbalances. Still couldn't pinpoint that one trouble spot for me exactly, but the bit of EQ I used fixed it enough that I no longer cared.
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Also got my Alpha DOG today, though my measurement equipment is not very ideal to closed backs
(dont know why, the bass always got lower than openbacks)
Anyway, here's the impulse and CSD plot I got from my pair:
(http://i.imgur.com/LHAae7z.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/LD74da8.png)
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Hey, thanks! Perhaps you could try lowering the CSD floor to -30 to -35dB or so. Could you also do a full frequency response and harmonic distortion test as well? Unless by "not very ideal" you mean really messed up or unreadable.
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Also got my Alpha DOG today, though my measurement equipment is not very ideal to closed backs
Not bad at all IMO. I also think that -30 to -35 dB floor for the CSD, like Hans said, would help. Can you provide the FR plot too?
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The CSD matches up with what I heard in many ways, but I'd like to see how the response looks when you factor in <500Hz. And since this is from a new unit that shouldn't be subject to the "screw issue" of the tour pair I listened to, I'm suspect that what I heard was due to that missing screw.
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Hmm, that doesn't look totally right. What did you set your FFT window rise time to and how far before and after the the impulse did you set the FFT window?
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http://www.head-fi.org/t/676095/mrspeakers-alpha-dog-revealed-the-worlds-first-production-3d-printed-headphones/5880#post_10291892
Wonder if this would change some of the impressions of a hard 6khz treble.
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Darn. Dan said he had made some tweaks at CHANGFest 2014. I wanted to hear them, but I never got to it.
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Did he have the new tweaks there?
I listened to uzi's Alpha Dog, which was most certainly the old version. Must not get along with my ear shape.
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I forgot to ask earlier, but when I heard the Mad Dogs for a couple days I thought their overall balance was rather good, but the entire sound signature has this plasticy, rubbery kind of veil over it, as if it was a result of being too damped and restricted or some kind of weird resonance that didn't allow the sound to be as defined as it could. Does the intricate design of the super cups on the alpha dog get rid of this veil effect?
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Nope. And its actually worse on the AD than the last few MDs I heard.
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I've had a set of mad dogs on loan for a week now and really haven't been impressed. There's an irritating tizz in the treble, and running a sweep I get hit with three peaks in rapid succession. Mids seem ok, midbass has a hump to it that warms things up but isn't spectacular or anything. The suction from the alpha pads also makes me feel a little claustrophobic.
If the Alpha Dogs are similar, I've lost any interest in hearing them.
As for the obedience update... so this is basically a reflector dot he's taping on the earside plus a piece of felt? ::)
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FWIW, the T50RP generally has something weird and irritating sounding about its treble to my ears. This was even true of the Paradox, and it holds for the Mad Dogs as well. I always used EQ. For some reason, I never tried front damping mods, even though that's a go-to mod I use often.
I'll be listening to the AD a second time (fixed tour unit) relatively soon. Not sure if it includes these tweaks or not, but I will inquire about it. EDIT: It will have the tweaks applied/available to mess with. Very nice!
TMRaven, despite not being fond of the AD when I heard it (noting those circumstances, of course), I thought it did a better job in regards to the points you mentioned. I was actually very happy vs. the MD with it once I EQed those peaks I heard.
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Well if anyone can provide impressions and/or send them in...
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Well if anyone can provide impressions and/or send them in...
Purrin, er marvey, what's the process for sending headphones to you?
If/when Dan processes my upgrade for my Mad Dogs (I think I may go through with it with this new revision) I could just have him send them to you? No idea how long that will be though.
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the maddogs are orthodynamic, which means if you dont run enough gain through them, you'll end up with sibilance, where as a dynamic coils will need much less gain. they also have a proper lack of attenuation, so the fuzzy quality people describe is occuring because of unbalanced music, where the bass is too high and the treble too low, giving that fuzz quality. given that most music is still mixed on coloured equipment, you'll run into that situation A LOT.
so the maddogs, or any reference cans with no attenuation usually need eq-ing and a fairly high gain. im running a -3db sloped bass cut and +3db sloped treble boost, and everything sounds great on coloured sources.
comfort wise, the phones have to sit near the top of your head, so you have to add the right height. they do become unnoticeable when they sit right, but if someone else is going to use them, you have to go through a readjusting process
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the maddogs are orthodynamic, which means if you dont run enough gain through them, you'll end up with sibilance, become unnoticeable when they sit right, but if someone else is going to use them, you have to go through a readjusting process
That's complete nonsense which does not jive with objective measurements or my subjective experience of many a ortho. In anything, turning up the volume (I think you mean volume, not gain) tends bring out bad sibilance because of the fletcher-munson effect.
So the fuzzy quality people describe is occuring because of unbalanced music, where the bass is too high and the treble too low, giving that fuzz quality. given that most music is still mixed on coloured equipment, you'll run into that situation A LOT.
The fuzzy quality is partly the result of the limitations of the T50RP driver. It's too darn small to produce clean non-distorted bass. Any mods to the T50RP just makes things worse because the mods usually lower the efficiency. The other part of course is, as you mentioned, marginal recordings with too much bass.
It's silly to attribute the MadDog's weaknesses purely to recording or volume.
BTW, I did not have any treble issues with any of the recent version MadDog's I have heard.
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oh I see. so the sibilance issue must be design based I guess? because I find they particularly need more power than other headphones. noise is still acceptable at high volume
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I forgot to ask earlier, but when I heard the Mad Dogs for a couple days I thought their overall balance was rather good, but the entire sound signature has this plasticy, rubbery kind of veil over it, as if it was a result of being too damped and restricted or some kind of weird resonance that didn't allow the sound to be as defined as it could. Does the intricate design of the super cups on the alpha dog get rid of this veil effect?
I wanted to come back and answer this question after listening to the AD for a while (with tweaks and my own damping disc in front). If I am understanding what you heard with the MD, the AD in its current state (and potentially with damping discs in front of driver) should be a notable improvement across the board.
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Hey, I was planning on getting the Alpha Dogs sometime this summer. What amp would you recommend for them? Or maybe even another headphone in their pricerange as I am not completely set on them.
Regards Moosecraft
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I preferred the MadDog Pros. No amount of dawg taming kit was able to transform the Alphas to something I found acceptable. Still has that bit of treble glare. Dunno. Hard to say not knowing your preferences of baseline. You could also go Paradox or Slants, but those orders are custom and can take a while. Another possibility is HE-560, but that's pushing your budget.
I recommend the Lyr 2 for orthos. Maybe Vali is you are on a budget. Dunno. I don't know your budget.
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Hey, I was planning on getting the Alpha Dogs sometime this summer. What amp would you recommend for them? Or maybe even another headphone in their pricerange as I am not completely set on them.
Regards Moosecraft
Perhaps wait a bit for the he-400i? I've read some people say that they're pretty similar sounding to the he-500 than the he-560i. You could also get the he-500 used for around that price as well.
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Yeah, I was also looking at the HE-400i. My favorite signature is probably a smiley shape of somesort but I'd rather have good timbre and imaging and slightly compensate in preferred sound signature. I would prefer to keep things around the 1k$ mark but prices over here in Sweden can vary quite heavily.
I also looked at the Mad dog pro but could not really find much about them.
Regards Moosecraft
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FWIW, I quite like the sound of the Alpha Dog with the new tweaks/taming kit. I always found myself wanting to EQ the top end of the Mad Dog (2.0 through 3.2, haven't tried Pro) and the Paradox (early model, and not Slants). If you've read much about the AD, my pair has two of the "dots" on each channel, and usually one felt disc in each does the trick for me. I think there are some further front damping tweaks that could improve the sound, which I'm experimenting with, and I actually tend to use different materials than the felt discs provided (or sometimes use my material with the felt). But I think most people would be very happy without taking those steps.
Keeping in mind personal tastes, equipment (I generally run the AD from a NOS DAC and a warm, vintage receiver), and product variance, YMMV. The Schiit offerings for amps will provide some good options.
Keep the two Paradox headphones in mind as well. If you're considering open headphones, that will give you a lot more options in your price range.
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Yes open or closed does not matter. There is so much to choose from so I came here for more straight answers :)p13
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... smiley shape ...
Mad Dog Pro or Enigma (although Enigma is more $ and longer wait). Latest Enigma's smiley curve is slight. Also, Enigma has slightly more headstage to Mad Dog Pro. Mad Dog Pro has some Alpha "technology" - namely the baffles, but still are not full wood cups like Enigma. You get what you pay for. Both are good options at different price points for closed headphones.
I'm not sure if anyone here has firsthand experience with HE-400i yet. Maybe HF has a stream of consciousness thread with 102323 posts on it where we may perhaps glean two sentences of real information in post #234 and #9823.
I'll be getting in an HE-560 soon for more formal measurements and subjective impressions so stay tuned. I did like the HE-560 very much at a meet a few months ago. I do not like the price though. But I would not say the HE-560 has smiley FR.
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I will hold out until the HE-400 and 560 and released then. Where would I order a pair of enigma?
Regards Moosecraft
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I heard both of the new HFMs at the Chicago meet but it was very loud there. Both have real drive. 400i sounds like a hybrid of 400's aggressiveness and 500's lushness, so it's a little mellower and noticeably warmer but there's some mushiness in the bass. Soundstage is much more open and wider than 400. (The HFM rep agreed that the number designation is misleading, as it doesn't sound close enough to the original; Fang settled on it earlier in the process when the sound was more similar.) It's not my preferred sound, but I enjoyed it for what it is.