CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: Marvey on April 28, 2012, 08:06:35 AM
-
http://www.head-fi.org/products/akg-k3003/reviews (http://www.head-fi.org/products/akg-k3003/reviews)
-
I was sorta expecting an 'in-depth' review on this one. :P
-
I'm getting away from in-depth reviews. They are too long for me to read.
-
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/a/a6/a6efdf99_K3003vsER4S.gif)
-
razors of death
-
Granted that IEM measurements are always difficult, the K3003 look like they have serious problems. Most IEMs have smooth curves, i.e. the ER-4S we see here.
-
I have a review coming versus the UERM and ES5.
I notice most of the folks that love them usually don't listen to modern popular music or rock. Usually classical or acoustic suited it's coloration best.
-
'that love them'
Which are you referring to?
-
k3003
-
what a mind-blowing review. i learned more from this in less then 2 minutes than compared to other reviews where you spend 30 minutes reading multiple pages on how awesome the silver is before even getting to the build structure.
-
Loved it!
Thanks for concurring.
-
Great review. And great response LFF! ;D
-
LOL hahahaha. I didn't read some of those responses until now.
Kiteki: Turn in into a thread... LOL!
-
The aftershocks of your executive summary are rippling throughout head-fi.
Quite amusing...
-
really? LOL. i wish i wrote more, but what more can i say?
-
they don't come in pink?
-
A little more pontification on the texture, feeling, taste and smell of the coloration with elaborate metaphors would be nice. I think that's what
Tdicksmeller some people want
-
really? LOL. i wish i wrote more, but what more can i say?
Well it at least spread to a thread that's not specifically K3003 related.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/591852/the-diary-entries-of-a-little-girl-nearing-30/5670#post_8345986
This K3003 thread looks like it's going to get pretty interesting as well.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/598273/akg-k3003-appreciation-discussion-and-reviews-thread/45#post_8344991
I've never heard the K3003 and it's not like I always agree with you either but some people seem to be getting a little defensive over there.
-
LOL:
Haha eke2k6, "I felt a great disturbance in the Force... as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced."
-
I've never heard the K3003 and it's not like I always agree with you either but some people seem to be getting a little defensive over there.
People always get defensive when you bash a "high end" product...especially if they own it and paid for it.
-
sighs....i wish more people were more calm and didn't flip shit every time something negative is said. they need to meditate more and learn to chill to do things more calmly.
also another possible reason and of course one other problem is, none of them aren't born with cool hair like me. not everyone could be me. i popped out in this world looking good awww yea. :P
-
It's funny. I mean, I love the HD800 and it's been my primary headphone for the longest time. But I am in total agreement with its detractors. Everything that say which is bad about it is true!
-
There, I wrote a "real" review: http://www.head-fi.org/t/598273/akg-k3003-appreciation-discussion-and-reviews-thread/60#post_8346463 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/598273/akg-k3003-appreciation-discussion-and-reviews-thread/60#post_8346463)
I hope they are happy.
-
"Shove it in! More! More! Harder!" 8)
-
There, I wrote a "real" review: http://www.head-fi.org/t/598273/akg-k3003-appreciation-discussion-and-reviews-thread/60#post_8346463 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/598273/akg-k3003-appreciation-discussion-and-reviews-thread/60#post_8346463)
I hope they are happy.
uuhhhhhh....too much reading....wall of text. i liked your simple review more.
-
Lulz...
You're still being too direct. They want you to dance around the shortcomings and only talk about what it's good for.
IMO there are basically two good ways to write a review. One is is short, to the point, and judged against a predefined standard like you wrote. The other type of good review is something that's in depth, fun to read, and discusses strengths and weakness of the product in a more abstract way that will better allow those with different tastes to get a feel for it.
Some people just want a word salad Headfonia/6moons style review though.
BTW, I love how you compared it to a cheap ML speaker with 'stats up top and normal woofers down low without even knowing that it's a 3 way with BAs for the mids and treble and a DD for the bass. You totally called it...
-
LOL, really? I still haven't gone to the AKG site to read it.
It makes more sense now.
-
IMO there are basically two good ways to write a review. One is is short, to the point, and judged against a predefined standard like you wrote. The other type of good review is something that's in depth, fun to read, and discusses strengths and weakness of the product in a more abstract way that will better allow those with different tastes to get a feel for it.
Some people just want a word salad Headfonia/6moons style review though.
+1
I can't stand reviewers who feel like "more is more" and are verbose just for the sake of being verbose. 90% of reviews I see are long without anything meaningful being said.
Not to say all long reviews are bad though. I quite enjoy LFF's reviews, for example, and they are pretty lengthy IIRC.
Shame about the K3003 though. The BA+DD sounds intriguing. Is it the first universal to use both?
-
There was an older UE universal that was a BA/DD hybrid. Never heard it but I think I read that it was supposed to be pretty awful.
The last time I said there weren't any others somebody gave me a list of models from brands I've never heard of. I don't remember any of them anymore though.
-
Is there something difficult about bass response for BA's? What was their rational for a dynamic bass driver, especially if it wound up sounding bloated and disjointed? The JH13 seemed to have awesome bass from what I remember of the universals I heard.
I agree with you Maverick. I think the people reacting negatively towards Purrin's review are people who arent familiar with him and don't know what his reference is, or sonic goals are. Which is kind of understandable. If you know his reference and ideal, than Purrin's review is great, because you get it straight and quick and don't have to skim through millions of adjectives. But if I read a review like that and didn't know the person or what they were comparing to or what they wanted out of a rig, it would mean absolutely nothing to me. Basically, you're trusting the reviewer's judgement. So if someone's favorite phones were the GS1000, then it wouldn't work at all (for me)
-
UM Merlin, Rooth, Fit Ear variants. It's cool thing to do now.
-
Well to my defense, I did indicate that the standard was the UERM. I don't think that Music123 guy has heard or had any experience with the great IEMs.
-
There was an older UE universal that was a BA/DD hybrid. Never heard it but I think I read that it was supposed to be pretty awful.
The last time I said there weren't any others somebody gave me a list of models from brands I've never heard of. I don't remember any of them anymore though.
Not surprising. I'd imagine it's hard to make everything sound cohesive with all those different moving parts. You'd think they nailed it for $1200 though.
-
Is there something difficult about bass response for BA's? What was their rational for a dynamic bass driver, especially if it wound up sounding bloated and disjointed? The JH13 seemed to have awesome bass from what I remember of the universals I heard.
There's a timbre in the low end people are used to w/ woofers. Many IEMers consider the overall tonality of a woofer more 'natural' though they do move more air more effortlessly by virtue of surface area. It's the same thinking like the AKG 340 rather than using a single large estat.
-
Four Words: Low End Martin Logan
-
Well to my defense, I did indicate that the standard was the UERM. I don't think that Music123 guy has heard or had any experience with the great IEMs.
I didn't mean to put you into defense.... They just don't realize that you know what you're talking about ;) And they might not want neutral/accurate/clean/flat/fast etc like you do.
-
Music 1234 has a few screws loose. Don't mind him.
-
There's a timbre in the low end people are used to w/ woofers. Many IEMers consider the overall tonality of a woofer more 'natural' though they do move more air more effortlessly by virtue of surface area. It's the same thinking like the AKG 340 rather than using a single large estat.
So BA's have trouble with a sense of impact similar to stats? Do you want a sense of impact in an IEM? ???
-
Well to my defense, I did indicate that the standard was the UERM. I don't think that Music123 guy has heard or had any experience with the great IEMs.
James444 does have the UERM and k3003 but he's a more reasonable chap and has a preference for a more 'natural' blended signature than BA precision and imaging. Pretty sure he's also not of the school of improving portable sources beyond the Clip+ so there will be less perceived scaling amongst the phones.
I know Music quite well and he's pretty cool on a personal level, he just likes to get set off and jump on anything that seems out of the ordinary. He'll pull a gun on a shadow and fire off a few rounds before identifying the target.
-
There's a timbre in the low end people are used to w/ woofers. Many IEMers consider the overall tonality of a woofer more 'natural' though they do move more air more effortlessly by virtue of surface area. It's the same thinking like the AKG 340 rather than using a single large estat.
So BA's have trouble with a sense of impact similar to stats? Do you want a sense of impact in an IEM? ???
Oh no! My ES5 BA bass driver hits harder and has more impact than any other IEM I've ever heard. More so than any headphone even. LCDx's can't do it either. ES5 is the only phone that almost knocked me out of my seat and made me duck for cover listening to my Fireworks track. BA's can kick ass w/ punch and impact.
It's a different, softer, fuller almost woolier bass that extend to sub bass effortlessly. BA's need more help w/ bigger armatures or multiple clusters to hit full extension.
-
There's a timbre in the low end people are used to w/ woofers. Many IEMers consider the overall tonality of a woofer more 'natural' though they do move more air more effortlessly by virtue of surface area. It's the same thinking like the AKG 340 rather than using a single large estat.
So BA's have trouble with a sense of impact similar to stats? Do you want a sense of impact in an IEM? ???
Oh no! My ES5 BA bass driver hits harder and has more impact than any other IEM I've ever heard. More so than any headphone even. LCDx's can't do it either. ES5 is the only phone that almost knocked me out of my seat and made me duck for cover listening to my Fireworks track. BA's can kick ass w/ punch and impact.
It's a different, softer, fuller almost woolier bass that extend to sub bass effortlessly. BA's need more help w/ bigger armatures or multiple clusters to hit full extension.
Sorry to ask something out of topic, but any non-custom that can get close to these (ES5), or closest?
-
Is there something difficult about bass response for BA's? What was their rational for a dynamic bass driver, especially if it wound up sounding bloated and disjointed? The JH13 seemed to have awesome bass from what I remember of the universals I heard.
I agree with you Maverick. I think the people reacting negatively towards Purrin's review are people who arent familiar with him and don't know what his reference is, or sonic goals are. Which is kind of understandable. If you know his reference and ideal, than Purrin's review is great, because you get it straight and quick and don't have to skim through millions of adjectives. But if I read a review like that and didn't know the person or what they were comparing to or what they wanted out of a rig, it would mean absolutely nothing to me. Basically, you're trusting the reviewer's judgement. So if someone's favorite phones were the GS1000, then it wouldn't work at all (for me)
I don't think that BAs have any issues with bass. I only have the Monster Turbine Golds as a reference to DD IEMs though. I haven't heard nearly as many as some other people. Lots of people on the IEM sub forum always talk about DDs having better timbre but none of the BAs I've owned had timbre issues. They were all much better than the majority of full size 'phones I've heard in that area and the only DD I have (the MTPG) actually has some issues with timbre.
That's probably not the best reference but if "good" DDs have better timbre than the BAs I've owned then they'd pretty much have to be world class. I don't have the data to back it up but I'm leaning towards some people just being used to slower and more plodding cheap ported HT subwoofer type bass. Even a cheap $50 single BA IEM excels in bass texture though you do have to spend a little more to get some more clarity throughout the spectrum.
I think full size headphones tend to do better with tactile impact though. When I heard the ES5 demo I don't remember it having the kind of bass that Anax mentions but maybe I just didn't get a good fit. It was awesome otherwise though. I don't really remember it too well since it was a long time ago but a post I wrote shortly afterwords said I thought it was light and airy but with good bass extension.
I think the only thing really "wrong" with purrin's review is that he didn't explicitly state what his reference was. If you know where he's coming from then that review tells you a lot.
-
Yeah but he's done more than enough work on there to establish credibility. If they are buying 1.2k earphones and didn't read the CSD thread then they are to blame.
-
I know Music quite well and he's pretty cool on a personal level, he just likes to get set off and jump on anything that seems out of the ordinary. He'll pull a gun on a shadow and fire off a few rounds before identifying the target.
You sure about that? Looking at his HF profile and lengthy IEM list of several dozen mid-fi units (and everything he's sold), it doesn't seem he knows what he really wants or what he's doing. Odd that he made such a dramatic jump (and I figure early adopter). It almost seems as if he read the AKG marketing materials and got bamboozled by them - and that he really hasn't heard anything better.
But yeah, I need to learn to add two good points for every bad point I make - like how Joker does it. I just read Joker's review and it seems that he pretty much said the same thing I did, but also mentioned the positives. But as you guys know, the instant there's a "showstopper" issue for me, the review is over.
I'll be taking IEM measurements soon, or kill myself trying to do so. Just need the right diameter silicone tube.
-
I know Music quite well and he's pretty cool on a personal level, he just likes to get set off and jump on anything that seems out of the ordinary. He'll pull a gun on a shadow and fire off a few rounds before identifying the target.
You sure about that? Looking at his HF profile and lengthy IEM list of several dozen mid-fi units (and everything he's sold), it doesn't seem he knows what he really wants or what he's doing. Odd that he made such a dramatic jump (and I figure early adopter). It almost seems as if he read the AKG marketing materials and got bamboozled by them - and that he really hasn't heard anything better.
My comments were about him personally IME via PMs and such. You have to realize, if even I can even get along w/ RD then anything is possible. ;D
He's had the ES3x for years so he's been down the custom route. It's really simple, some people are going to be fine w/ a certain set of criteria for their tastes regardless of whatever metric of improvement you present. They may even consider those technical improvements to be flaws or less preferable. Based on something along those lines he's long championed the universal = custom performance = customs overrated/hyped camp. For me it's silly because any phone can be overrated or hyped regardless of universal/custom, it's just too relative. Customs just allow for greater volume to utilize a wider array of driver packages and far more specific tuning based on ear and canal shape. Some manufacturers take advantage of that some don't.
Music isn't the most congenial on the open forums but he was one of the first and most vocal to attack hype, cost and shilling in the IEM threads. If he reads something he doesn't agree with and doesn't know where you are coming from, he will think the worst about your intentions. If you want to get into it he'll dance all night long till it becomes personal and Amos shoots him a PM. That's just how he is. It's not incompetence, it's prejudice and bias which we all have to some degree.
We don't agree on everything at all but I know his intentions and he tries to come from a good place. I used to despise him actually but eventually I came to realize he was one person who I could count on to express an honest opinion based on his criteria and preferences. You just have to learn where he's coming from. That's what I did. He's just a T-Rex in a China shop sometimes whereas I'm like a Rhino.
-
Seems quite a few other guys don't like him much...
-
Seems quite a few other guys don't like him much...
I didn't either. I know I have quite a 'following' myself ;) He's picked a lot of fights and locked a lot of threads. I guess us A-holes just recognize our own species.
-
You sure about that? Looking at his HF profile and lengthy IEM list of several dozen mid-fi units (and everything he's sold), it doesn't seem he knows what he really wants or what he's doing. Odd that he made such a dramatic jump (and I figure early adopter). It almost seems as if he read the AKG marketing materials and got bamboozled by them - and that he really hasn't heard anything better.
It seems "mid-fi" because he doesn't really like customs all that much and thinks that universals are just as good or better so he mostly sticks to trying out the newest universals.
-
Yeah, but why does someone like Inks (I believe he is into universals too) just emanate more knowledge and mastery of the subject?
I guess us A-holes just recognize our own species.
Except that you don't emanate a certain pathos or needyness - and you can actually hear stuff - making realistic assessments.
-
Just so you guys know how much I'm out of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KHIe8cWXE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KHIe8cWXE)
WTF?
-
Personality and objective inquiry. I'm cool with Inks too. We share a lot of phones and impressions w/ Joker as well like the Grado GR10 on my desk atm and DBA mk2 you heard. He's been trying to learn more of the objective stuff lately which is good but he been flirting w/ the objective absolutism a bit lately. He's changed quite a bit in preferences recently as he used to loath BA's and was all about DD timbre. It's cool. I'm open to rationality, wisdom and genuine inquisitiveness no matter who they are. It's the ones who have it all figured out that rub me raw. Inks and Music may not get along with each other or some others but I'm cool w/ both. They both contribute in their own way. Believe me, you could do far worse on H-fi by far. I'll forward you my ignore list if you like.
__________
Dude, what do you expect from Harmon and a $1400 IEM. It's the Googlei commercial.
-
Wait, wasn't it $1200?
Nice to see the IEM area is still HF, just an alternate plane. I'll probably not bother. Just take measurements and post 'em there. We may have to start hazing new people tho if that happens.
-
Wait, wasn't it $1200?
$1400 MSRP, JnR has it for $1200.
I think the portable forum has been historically worse than the desktop crowd, Currawong could chime in if he feels like.
Desktop folks have a higher threshold of auditory pain, portable folks will tar, feather and skin you if you don't like their DAP.
-
Music isn't the most congenial on the open forums but he was one of the first and most vocal to attack hype, cost and shilling in the IEM threads. If he reads something he doesn't agree with and doesn't know where you are coming from, he will think the worst about your intentions. If you want to get into it he'll dance all night long till it becomes personal and Amos shoots him a PM. That's just how he is. It's not incompetence, it's prejudice and bias which we all have to some degree.
We don't agree on everything at all but I know his intentions and he tries to come from a good place. I used to despise him actually but eventually I came to realize he was one person who I could count on to express an honest opinion based on his criteria and preferences. You just have to learn where he's coming from. That's what I did. He's just a T-Rex in a China shop sometimes whereas I'm like a Rhino.
TThat's a good description. He obviously knows what he is talking about, but presents it in a way that he has pissed off just about all of the hardcore IEM-using regulars. It's a line that's hard to draw well -- how much do you tell people to be polite when arguing their point versus how much do you tell other people not to be offended when something they like is disliked by someone else.
I'll have to see if there aren't a demo pair of these AKGs available while I'm in Tokyo though. With the DX100 it's much easier to make a reasonable on-the-spot evaluation of a pair of IEMs.
-
Yep music is quite an a hole, but one or two years back when the Earsonics SM3 was hyped to be the FOTM iem, he was one of the first to criticize it for lacking midrange clarity (just too thick and smooth). And in fact I was one of the earlier adopter and I agreed with him on this one. He is just one of those who are too direct and straight forward with his preference and opinions.
I really don't like how fast something can become the FOTM in the iem subforum of HF, I guess it's due to the cheaper price of the iem, and almost partly due to the greater amount of fresh members there. Things are always made up to be much better than what they actually are.
On the other hand I have great respect for Marv and the likes for their objective views on things. Over time through reading all the plots and CSDs, I have come to know my preference, and in some way I can deduce fairly well how something would sound from just the plots.
Speaking of which, in quite a few ways Marv and Music are similar, direct, straight forward, no BS.
On iems, even after one or two years I stop messing with them, there still aren't that many good-non custom-cheap iems that can provide me with what the Stax O2 has. I need to try the UERM and the Stax 009. One more month and I will get to hear them at the NYC meet.
-
Yes indeed we are similar, but with notable differences:
- I don't go off and attack people on HF in an indirect, veiled, or passive aggressive way.
- I don't attack people personally (unless they are making up stuff or have no idea what they are talking about), just their gear and how it sounds. Professional reviewers who claim Ultrasones are the ultimate in neutrality are excepted.
- I don't go bonkers:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=247.0;attach=895;image)
What he just did by removing all his posts reminds me a lot of what my 4 year old son did with he was 3: he trashed his room when mommy and daddy weren't paying attention to him.
-
Oh, that's just his ectoplasm. You find it everywhere. :D
-
Oh, that's just his ectoplasm. You find it everywhere. :D
Ewwwww......
-
Never heard of this dude or this IEM until today :p That commercial was hilarious!
-
Now hold on guys, don't eat the bird!
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSG0TusrdhyVo7CNbVsw4dA42pMIAVEJiOI5F1NyC7AEONVFPGs-w)
-
.
-
SShhhh!!! The kat will hear you! Anyway, glad to see you finally make a post. I think you'll be better off w/o that place. We are much more into constructive disagreement here IMO. Even between people that carry quite a bit a baggage from dealing w/ each other. I think we can appreciate each other's insanity as long as there are no attempts at religious conversions or crusades.
-
.
-
I think Currawong banned you for compassionate reasons (to help you take a break from all this), not for attacking anyone. As Tyll has said, gotta be able to push the keyboard away. I don't think anyone, at least anyone I've spoken to, felt attacked by you.
We do ban people without explanation here. Sometimes it's just bad fit. Most of the time, it's pragmatic and to keep the peace. As of right now, I believe only one person is banned (Dale Thorn does not count - as he is perma-banned because of this attempts to sign in 58 different times.) It was some dude who pretended to be pleasant and friendly with us, but then started to "join in the party" and talk shit about us somewhere else. This miffed one of the other admins. I rarely do ban people. So if anyone gets banned, PM someone else. I'm always the third or fourth to know about bans.
Quite frankly, it's been very peaceful here for a while; and I like it that way.
-
Hello music,
I would suggest that being overly focused on agendas and whether people are for or against you could be very unhealthy. I was saddened to see you make fun of going to psychotherapy in a post on head-fi a while back. I work in medicine and I'd recommend having a good therapist to anyone.
I'm not your enemy.
I'm certainly not your enemy because I like the k3003, but not as much as you do. There's no secret agenda or plot or scheme, etc. Nor do people need to like the earphones I like and there is no earphone I like unreservedly. I'm sorry for the animus that grew between us on head-fi. I've tried to move on and I hope you can as well.
-Kunlun
-
.
-
I really don't think this is a good place for you to hang out. Sometimes it's not about being right. It's about being able to get along. There is a dedicated thread for folks to make a proper introduction. You could have made it there but you chose to make it here instead. No one here even cares about the K3003 anymore. No one really even cares about what I think about it - they can make up their own minds.
So far, none of your posts has contributed to this forum. It's all about yourself, your justifications, your explanations, how you feel about other people, how you've been wronged by Amos, etc.
-
I really don't think this is a good place for you to hang out.
Yes, so it seems.
-
this is kinda sad to see. i get the impression that being active over at the other place means a lot to music. is it too late to change my profile coz i also own the k3003. ;) bought it after trying out some other high-end universals.
-
...back in the days of the top tier IEM's Shure SE535, ER-4, TF10 and CK100 etc. Music_4321 was pioneering the anti-CIEM agenda, along with James444.
James also had issues with "coherency" which he noticed in some 'too many driver IEM's'.
He informed me there wasn't any discoherency in the CK10 I was using at that time, in other words that I hadn't noticed it yet so I should stop hyping six driver-ness.
In retrospect...
1. They were right to go against the 'most expensive wins' phenomenon, which has escalated in recent times.
2. The JH16 (and other C/IEM's) DID have certain issues with 'coherency'. A few thought I had mental issues for saying the JH11 was better but the arrival of the Freqphase in a sense proved the JH13/JH16 were flawed in ways which hardly anyone noticed and/or were escaping all measurement data (unless you measure one driver at a time and then overlap the data, and/or measure for phase shift as it appears JH has done).
Anyway, Purrin pioneered saying the K3003 is horrid for the price, which it is.
The T-Peos two driver hybrid sounds really novel / nice btw.
-
One thing about the phase-time alignment stuff: It has NOTHING to do with, or NO CORRELATION with IEM coherency.
The entire Ultimate Ears line has probably the most coherent sound I've heard, despite in some cases, significant differences in frequency response. And the UE stuff has some of the most messed up phase response measurements. This seems to reflect my experience with speakers too, both DIY and commercial.
-
I think phase response can work for or against a specific sound signature --- it doesn't mean that a flat phase response will make something sound more or less coherent, but rather that it can help shape spatial characteristics of an earphone, like openness, intimacy, etc. I played around with the PRM for over an hour, and could not get it to duplicate the feel of the demo UERM sitting right next to it. Everything about the PRM felt 'off' to me, even though the FR was close to what I liked.
Coherence to me feels more like a timing and decay issue. A dynamic driver with gobs of decay just doesn't jive well with a BA with not too much of it. Time misalignment will make the problem feel worse. I thought this way when I heard the Astrotec AX60. The dynamic driver always felt half a beat "late", leading to my heightened sense of unease.
-
If you think UE is coherent for a CIEM, Westone is amazing.
-
We should get their Westone asses to the next Bay Area meet then.
-
I would like to hear the ES5 again. I would probably go that direction vs. JH13FP right now after RMAF.
-
...back in the days of the top tier IEM's Shure SE535, ER-4, TF10 and CK100 etc. Music_4321 was pioneering the anti-CIEM agenda, along with James444.
James also had issues with "coherency" which he noticed in some 'too many driver IEM's'.
He informed me there wasn't any discoherency in the CK10 I was using at that time, in other words that I hadn't noticed it yet so I should stop hyping six driver-ness.
In retrospect...
1. They were right to go against the 'most expensive wins' phenomenon, which has escalated in recent times.
2. The JH16 (and other C/IEM's) DID have certain issues with 'coherency'. A few thought I had mental issues for saying the JH11 was better but the arrival of the Freqphase in a sense proved the JH13/JH16 were flawed in ways which hardly anyone noticed and/or were escaping all measurement data (unless you measure one driver at a time and then overlap the data, and/or measure for phase shift as it appears JH has done).
Anyway, Purrin pioneered saying the K3003 is horrid for the price, which it is.
The T-Peos two driver hybrid sounds really novel / nice btw.
well bro, as this all comes down to a matter of opinion, i'd take the "horrid for the price" k3003 over the diabolical for the price piano forte x, lx, vlll and even the highly rated for the price ie800 - and did. ;)
-
The T-Peos two driver hybrid sounds really novel / nice btw.
Which T-Peos? I tried the first one they released, the one Eke did a tour with (I think it was the "100" model or something), and thought it was one of the worst IEMs I've ever heard.
-
well bro, as this all comes down to a matter of opinion, i'd take the "horrid for the price" k3003 over the diabolical for the price piano forte x, lx, vlll and even the highly rated for the price ie800 - and did. ;)
Hehe well the consumer decides the market trend so buying a Vsonic V7007 clone for $750 USD less and sending emails to AKG would put pressure on AKG to remove the fashion price and take actions versus cloning. The jewellery commercial proves they were marketing it with $20,000 leather jackets in mind, not saying that's necessarily a sin or anything but you know.
_______
Purrin what is your personal subjective term for how phase/time shift sounds?
-
The T-Peos two driver hybrid sounds really novel / nice btw.
Which T-Peos? I tried the first one they released, the one Eke did a tour with (I think it was the "100" model or something), and thought it was one of the worst IEMs I've ever heard.
Yes the 100 model. Did it sound defective or broken in any way?
-
The H100 sounded terribly disjointed and V shaped. Eke had 2 pairs (not at the same time) that sounded that way. And a different pair Rin measured was also a deep V, or perhaps deep W is a better description.
-
It says the H100 includes a frequency response chart to confirm it's FR of perceived flatness.
You know, which all the other 600+ universal IEM's out there don't, apart from a few Etymotics.
There's a rumour Rin Choi really doesn't like his Korean kin at GE, therefore his review is questionable. Yet, it still shows the flatness from 100Hz up.
-
I can unequivocally say the H100 I heard is not remotely close to flat.
When I have heard the exact set of iems he's measured, which is quite a few, his measurements tend to mirror what I hear. However I don't always agree with his conclusions.
-
I think we heard rather different units, there's not very much I like which muppet dislikes except for the virtual marionette Kiteki.
_____
Returning to coherency, a hybrid with a dynamic and a BA with very different THD patterns, speed, tone, that is one form of discoherency, right? Then there is time/phase alignment, then there is the crystal clear perfectness of the crossovers versus not. Then there is perhaps a fourth, high decay issues, which Tomscy2000 mentioned in this thread.
Then there is perhaps a fifth which is which is location and radiation. For example a triple-bore CIEM has three sound exits, thus the driver sound paths merge as late as spatially possible, this feature is usually removed in universalised CIEM's.
Edit: I don't know IME if the above is audible or not, but then why does multi-bore exist?
A dynamic driver tilted 90 degrees away affects location / radiation as well, that's why everyone says the Sony EX600 sounds more like a headphone than an IEM. Another example JVC FXC51 / FXD80 driver locality, these are audible especially with deep over-ear insertion, nice feeling.
/just my opinion
-
well bro, as this all comes down to a matter of opinion, i'd take the "horrid for the price" k3003 over the diabolical for the price piano forte x, lx, vlll and even the highly rated for the price ie800 - and did. ;)
Hehe well the consumer decides the market trend so buying a Vsonic V7007 clone for $750 USD less and sending emails to AKG would put pressure on AKG to remove the fashion price and take actions versus cloning. The jewellery commercial proves they were marketing it with $20,000 leather jackets in mind, not saying that's necessarily a sin or anything but you know.
_______
Purrin what is your personal subjective term for how phase/time shift sounds?
glad you could find a slot for me in your world view bro. like there's no way i would have bought them for the sound. ;)
-
/ no way i would have bought them for the sound. ;)
In a blind test versus Etymotic ER-4B, Ortofon E-Q7 and a UM Mage I'd think it's rather unlikely actually.
You spent your premium and you really like these, it's cool, I'll spend my premiums elsewhere.
Thanks AKG for pricing these so high and making luxury commercials about IEM's, please release a $2,500 IEM next with very heavy marketing.
-
The ER-4s and k3003 are my favorite iems. I enjoy them more than my jh13 the 1+2 and tg334 I owned before them. I paid less for a new k3003 than all of those, except the etymotic.
-
Yeah, I don't know what was up with the T Peos I heard, but it was definitely nowhere close to sounding linear. It had some really wonky ups and downs in the signature, and I think most of the people who heard that pair on Eke's tour heard something similar --- ie. bad.
Eke was sort of in disbelief it could sound so bad, so he bought a second pair, and it was pretty much the same. Maybe the real 'bad' element was Eke's luck? James, ever the pragmatist, suggested it might be a fit issue, however I experimented with different tips and insertion depths and didn't find anything that could save it. In either case, the frequency response chard T Peos supplied was obviously not a measurement of that particular unit we all heard. If their units are going to vary so much from one to the next due to bad quality control, then supplying measurements taken from one "good" unit isn't exactly helpful.
As for the K3003, I think you have to take the overall context of Purrin's review into consideration: the flaws were unacceptable to him at that very high price point. Personally, I like the K3003 myself and think it's a very good sounding IEM despite its having some very definite problems. Having owned the E-Q7, I'd take the K3003 over them just based on sound alone. Interestingly enough, when I heard a new pair of K3003s some of its flaws were less apparent, particularly the bass which seemed to keep pace with the other drivers more closely. There's that product variation factor again I guess?
-
Supposedly newer k3003 units have slightly reduced levels of bass and are a bit faster in that regard. My new pair certainly matches that rumor and according to Ader's recent shout, it seems idsynchrono's replacement pair might match that description.
I think the description of the k3k being a more polite 1+2 is a good description, having owned both at the same time. The 1+2 had more bass and more treble, making it even airier and grander, yet further away and more aggressive.
-
I probably would be less critical today on the K3003s. The K3003 was a price busting product at that time. Having been accustomed to only IEMs with good coherence and lack of treble spikes, I found the K3003 unacceptable.
Also I think I was goaded into writing this short assessment by some folks who knew a certain person would go ballistic. Back then, I didn't know there were so many crazies in the IEM world of HF. Or knew that there were supposed certain review protocols to follow, mainly the in TL;DR format which I eschew.
It's pretty normal these days for $1000+ IEMs to lack coherency, have funny treble peaks, etc. You have to understand my mindset in 2012 with the whole manifesto thing http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=487.0 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=487.0) where I was in fact railing against these massive increases of the price of products which either did not provide improved performance or bring anything unique (unique done poorly doesn't not count.) I would have been fine with the K3003 at $499 (and even that would have been too much.)
Now in 2013/2014 expensive shit, good or bad, is now the norm. So I've essentially given up on that old angle. Welcome to the land of big boy Hi-Fi.
An no, that manifesto in 2012 was not mocking HF. Some people can be pretty thin-skinnned.
-
I have been thinking of listening to the k3003 again, maybe buying from a place with a good return policy. I did enjoy the tuning, except for the bass driver not keeping up. If that's been corrected, great. The 1plus2 was nice, but woul've ended up in a drawer thanks to the V-sound and the bass not quite fitting. I understand that's been corrected as well.
Long listening times bring out things that shorter sessions miss entirely, I find.
I recently returned my ie800 as the treble didn't quite work for me. Maybe I'll return to it at a later time.
-
/ no way i would have bought them for the sound. ;)
In a blind test versus Etymotic ER-4B, Ortofon E-Q7 and a UM Mage I'd think it's rather unlikely actually.
you're referring to yourself here right? ;)
-
Tbh I wanted to buy the T-Peos when I demoed it in a store here in Asia, but the shopkeeper said it was his friends, he really liked it too btw, he's an Audio Technica headphone guy, so not far from Muppet. When I saw the negative comments at h-f I figured they break too easily, anyway it's just a fresh and novel sound, something similar to the Final Audio VI unit, or an ER-4 with sub-bass and tizziness, speaking in FR here, pretty far from what everyone else is saying. Rin's review of the T-Peos 200 suggests the company was smoking crack and tuning each IEM differently. My new ATH-CK10 also sounds a bit diff than my previous one, yeah I know long term sonic memory is not held in esteem but I noticed it has a white filter in the nozz instead of blue.
Point in case to all audio companies lurking here, don't change IEM's without say so, and include FR graphs like the ER-4PT has, that cost $200 a piece, it's not difficult. Also include a note FR is only a piece in the puzzle but needed for QC and uniformity. I don't know why anyone would want the PT instead of S or B and the "horn" shape of the Shure Olive exit actually makes it sound better than all Ety tips so they were smoking smt as well... /opinion
The E-Q7 is unusually dark tilted, but that can be fixed with extra impedance adaptors as Sonove found, the nice part is that Yashima driver though, with any impedance applied it's quite special, really need to review it.
"Now in 2013/2014 expensive shit"
It means IEM's are clearly way better than Dr. Dre now, which cost less, and soon we'll see review comments "This $500 IEM sounds like $2000!! Amazing!!"
Back in the day I thought it was a joke the FI-BA-SS cost as much as my several hundred kilo Kawasaki, which isn't only soldering a piece of wire to a driver inside a two conic shaped pieces of steel, but after a while it's normal and you pay anything to get that upper echelon feeling or whatever.
Still I refuse to accept that DAC's should be in the multi thousands considering how serene some of the sub-$500 DIY are which I can't imagine improve very much.
-
/ no way i would have bought them for the sound. ;)
In a blind test versus Etymotic ER-4B, Ortofon E-Q7 and a UM Mage I'd think it's rather unlikely actually.
you're referring to yourself here right? ;)
Ok you win they did a blind test with 500 high school students and 1 Dachshound and they all chose K3003.
-
Kiteki, is there a sonic v7007 review you can point me to?
Is there a relationship with the akg3003 or are you just saying they sound similar (assuming you've heard them both)?
I haven't been following vsonic, I just saw they had some dynamics in the pipe.
-
/ no way i would have bought them for the sound. ;)
In a blind test versus Etymotic ER-4B, Ortofon E-Q7 and a UM Mage I'd think it's rather unlikely actually.
you're referring to yourself here right? ;)
Ok you win they did a blind test with 500 high school students and 1 Dachshound and they all chose K3003.
winning feels good. the test subjects have impeccable taste. who's a good boy?
-
Kiteki, is there a sonic v7007 review you can point me to?
Is there a relationship with the akg3003 or are you just saying they sound similar (assuming you've heard them both)?
I haven't been following vsonic, I just saw they had some dynamics in the pipe.
It's a clone of the K3003 as the name implies http://headphoniaks.com/blog/eng-confidential-vsonic-interview-part-ii/
When Astrotec released a clone of the V7007 there was a flamewar, I remember Vsonic saying something like they'll prove how good Chinese technology is, which seemed like an out of place comment surrounding an Austrian invention with an American driver inside?
T-Peos H200 is a K3003 clone as well, however it looks iffy. Tomscy has experience with the Astrotec and K3003.
In principle I don't approve of clones, but if they're virtually identical at 20% of the price then at least it's a reality check and I think audio should be like Linux / Firefox afterall, not royalistic.
-
Thanks. When is the V7007 coming out? Looks like people have been talking about it since 2012...
-
The v7007 may never come out if Astrotec's Chinese patent on the AX60 is true.
-
Hmm, tomscy's saying that the ax60 has a slow bass that doesn't keep up with the BAs... not promising.
I'd like to hear the Sony xba-H3. Also, I wonder when Dale will get the new version of the ASG-2 out?
-
I haven't heard it, but if the XBA-H3 isn't using a crossover like the rest of their multi-drivers, it'll sound just as weak as every single Sony product has since the release of the EX600 / EX800ST / EX1000. No crossover is like watching a 3D movie without the glasses.
http://www.sony.jp/CorporateCruise/Press/201309/13-0905D/images/img_002.png
JH16 / K3003 no time alignment, Sony no crossovers, JVC all V-shaped FR, Vsonic GR07 no upper treble.
Rin Choi seconds my view, he doesn't measure crossovers or time alignment, but he thinks the recent Sony headphones are worse than those from the 1990's.
Ocharaku Kuro looks like the only product still around still continuing the Sony spirit, the rest are all marketing. /opinion
-
My internet skills are weak, because they lack a true foundation in the spirit of kung-fu.
Where is Rin's review of the xba-h3?
Also, I think MF has these?
-
To be perfectly honest, I don't really care what Rin Choi thinks about this or that. Especially as I've never come across his talking about sound in the actual context of music. I find his discussions of all this stuff to be quite soul sapping, personally.
I'm rather indifferent toward the EX600 and EX1000, but I like the EX800ST. I also like the H3, but only when it's modded to remove the ridiculous bass Sony felt necessary to tune it to have.
The Ocharaku connection is definitely there, since it's the ex-employee responsible for the [awful] PFV-1. Really though the "Sony spirit" in this case is an antagonistic one, the one that haunted the EX700SL that I loved so much for some reason, and one that will definitely not be some peoples' cup of tea. I've been listening to their newest invention, the Donguri, which is designed to look like a pair of acorns you shove into your earholes. It even comes with a wooden acorn pendant crafted by Oak Village in their ongoing partnership with the tea house. I was especially moved when I discovered that the housings of the Donguri were made from zelkova, the same wood used on the cups of the Sony R10. Overall the Donguri has a much more natural type of sound, somewhat removed from the wholly unnatural Flat4 (or EX700SL). They're definitely carrying to torch of Sony's madder, more adventurous and inventive side these days. However their ethos is wholly different to my mind. More one of reverence for the world at large rather than a burning desire to dominate and conquer it.
I know it's en vogue and even fun to be cynical about stuff, but personally I think the portable market is in a much better state than it was a few years ago, especially compared to the full-sized headphone landscape. $100 today will get you a lot more in an in-ear monitor than it would have before, and there's just a much wider variety of different flavors and subtle variations that exist in the comparatively young in-ear market. For instance I've been trying to decide between several "neutral-ish" CIEMs like the L05QD, UERM, 4C, and NT6. After hearing them (save for the NT6), I was rather impressed by how competently tuned they were, especially compared to the world of headphones where you just don't see that sort of thing. If anything, the world of CIEMs and manufacturers pooling from the same sources reminds me more of the hobbyist speaker niche en miniature.
As for crossovers, it really depends. Sometimes they aren't executed particularly well. Other times a crossoverless design can work well, as in the case of Custom Art's dual driver model. It's all about implementation.
-
Really? The CK10 sounds like watching a 3D movie w/o glasses?? It sounds more coherent than most triple drivers w/ crossovers I've ever heard.
Too much gross oversimplification in some of those claims for me.
-
The ck10 is a dual BA no-crossover design, too.
MF, could you describe the treble, mids and bass of the xba-H3 with the vent blocked? I think you said it was better for you than the ex-1000 and that makes me interested as I liked the EX-1000 (with some tuning changes).
Does the h3's dynamic blend well with the BAs? How is the detail? Sorry to ask, just that inquiring minds want to know and all.
-
Really? The CK10 sounds like watching a 3D movie w/o glasses?? It sounds more coherent than most triple drivers w/ crossovers I've ever heard.
Too much gross oversimplification in some of those claims for me.
The ck10 is a dual BA no-crossover design, too.
There is definitely an extra piece of circuitry inside the CK10, a green board like this http://www.colsanmicro.com/components/driver-assemblies/
At you two and MF yes okay there are 'natural' crossover designs too, like tweeters which naturally start at very high frequencies and so forth.
I don't have any evidence crossover overlap causes distress, but I'm sure there's a few which have experimented turning the "active" part in their active speakers on and off which will yield noteworthy differences.
The fact crossovers aren't measured very much doesn't really help either, you can block individual bores in a CIEM though, which I hope some CIEM designers do in the assembly and measurement stage.
would have thought rin would fit right in here. music takes a back seat to measurements and technical performance from what i'm seeing.
You can have a look at the "discovery thread" on head-fi if you want by Dsnuts, they mostly talk about music and IEM discoveries, a lot of them like the ATH-CKS1000 which measures like this http://www.seeko.co.kr/zboard4/zboard.php?id=cool_review&no=322 if you're interested. I think it sounds quite fun, now and then.
Ok leaving thread ciao.
-
Music 1234 has a few screws loose. Don't mind him.
'show me a sane man and i will cure him for you''
C.G. Jung
[ not all people like being robots , like say Max headroom]