CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone, IEM, and Other Audio Related Discussion => Topic started by: Skyline on April 01, 2014, 06:35:00 PM
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Anyone have plans to pick a pair up and/or measure them? I'm very curious.
I really wanted to like the M80s, but the bass/treble balance was just too skewed for my taste. I'm curious to see if these new phones do anything to balance that out, or if it's all just smoke, mirrors, and the typical head-fi hype train proclaiming these as the BEST. PORTABLES. EVA.
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Anyone have plans to pick a pair up and/or measure them? I'm very curious.
I really wanted to like the M80s, but the bass/treble balance was just too skewed for my taste. I'm curious to see if these new phones do anything to balance that out, or if it's all just smoke, mirrors, and the typical head-fi hype train proclaiming these as the BEST. PORTABLES. EVA.
I plan on picking them up this week sometime. I'm in the market for a new supraaural for on the go since my Amperior's clamp makes my ear sore after forty five minutes to an hour. I wanted to like the M-80s, but I couldn't get a good seal due to the way the thing was shaped. I'm hoping the headband changes and clikfold hinges from the M-100s change that.
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Austin, sounds like you have the same problem with the Amperiors that I had with the HD 25-1.
I've only owned a handful of on-ears, but the Senn PX-100ii was one that left a good impression. No isolation though.
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Austin, sounds like you have the same problem with the Amperiors that I had with the HD 25-1.
I've only owned a handful of on-ears, but the Senn PX-100ii was one that left a good impression. No isolation though.
I actually have the PX-100 original. I like it, but I need my on ear to be closed backed for L train, Metra, and bus use down here. Chicago is too damn loud ;) I'd imagine all of the HD25 permutations have largely the same clamp and annoying adjustment mechanism, so I'm certain that the two of us are not alone in our ergonomic difficulties!
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The M80's isolate better for me. I couldn't get a good seal with the LP/M100 as I need some swivel to get the cups to conform to my head. There's those new XL pads though which might make a difference.
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Valentine, anymore preliminary impressions on the XS? How's the comfort for you, did you had a chance to check it long term?
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Valentine, anymore preliminary impressions on the XS? How's the comfort for you, did you had a chance to check it long term?
Ergonomic Impressions: My V-Moda XS came in yesterday at around 12:00 noon central time. I used them from 12:30 to around 10:30 pm. These are the single most comfortable supraaural headphone I've ever used, and are up there with the most comfortable headphone I've used period (that includes the Paradox w/ Suspension Headband). I only took them off to eat and to watch this past week's Cosmos episode with my wife. Most of that listening was from my desktop rig (ALAC/FLAC files > JMRC > USB to ODAC > UHA-6S.MKII > XS). I did spend about 45 minutes walking outside to the bank and drugstore to pick up a few things as well.
It only took around 4 minutes to find my optimal fit - which was 3 clicks down for me, but YMMV. The odd part about the XS is that they don't *feel* secure, but they are. With most on-ear phones, the headphones are secured by the force of the on ear clamp. In this case, there is very little clamping force because of the redesigned Steelflex headband. Most of the force is carried by the far larger contact area between your head and the surface of the band, leaving the earpads free to be as loose or as tight as you need them to be for seal and stabilization only.
I don't have enough accolades for the design of these things. They are light enough to keep around your neck while on the go and not feel encumbered or impeded in the least. They isolate exactly the same as the old M-80s - which means not very well. They still have the same bass vents from before. For me, this is a plus as I don't want to get run over by a car navigated by some Chicago driver on a smartphone.
Re: Sound: The XS are still new and I don't want to let "new toy" bias overcome my better judgment. So, normally, I wouldn't say much at this point. I usually take around 3 weeks or so to make a final judgement on a new piece of gear. But, since you're making a buying decision soon and I have a few minutes, here is what I've got on my notes from yesterday's listening.
Playlist (in order of listening, a few tracks on each with the exception of Moondance and One Nil which were full album listens. Included because headphone tastes are often genre specific.): Bon Iver - For Emma, Forever Ago & Bon Iver; Van Morrison, Moondance; The Outfield, Play Deep; The Who, My Generation/Best Of & Quadrophenia; Bob Dylan, Bringing It All Back Home & Highway 61 Revisited; Athlete, Tourist; Modest Mouse, We Were Dead...; Paul Simon, Graceland; Gin Blossoms, New Miserable Experience & Congratulations I'm Sorry; George Harrison, Let It Roll; The Beatles, Help! & Let It Be; Jim Croce, The Way We Used To Be; Neil Finn, One Nil; Sixto Rodriguez, Cold Fact & Coming From Reality; Leonard Cohen, Songs of Love and Hate.
To my ears they are a substantial improvement over the M-80, especially in treble extension, bass evenness and bass tightness. If anything, I think that the two hype threads on the other site are undervaluing the sonic differences - seeing them more as a shrunken, clikfold M-80. I think - or at least certainly hope - that future measurements will bear out the improvements I'm hearing here. If it doesn't, well, then I shouldn't quit my day job ;)
The XS's treble response extends higher than its predecessor without becoming unduly bright or piercing. Cymbals and strings have the appropriate sparkle, while still lacking the expected bit of top end air. That's such a general statement that you can say it for most headphones, so put another way: the treble on the XS doesn't sound shelved like it did on the M-80. Despite the better extended highs, the XS retains the M-80's pleasant character. It's still a slightly warm headphone. Moreover, harmonicas and trumpets don't gain extra harshness. There is no added vocal sibilance, which to me is still the great crime of the HD25 and Amperior. My go-to test album for sibilance is Rodriguez's Coming From Reality, where the song "Cause" sounds like it was recorded with a backing orchestra of tearing paper. On any headphone that adds sibilance, that song becomes a torture device. On the XS, that track is still listenable.
Most of the time, the XS's bass output felt extremely even and well balanced. When measured, I don't think that the XS is going to seem particularly bass elevated in its frequency response. But, at times, certain tracks felt more bassy than I thought that they should. (In particular, in the opening bass notes on Paul Simon's "Graceland" and the bassline in Van Morrison's "Glad Tidings"). I switched back and forth to my Paradox, which I think makes a great palate cleanser, and even though the tracks sounded less bassy on the Paradox it wasn't immediately apparently to me why that was. Probably because I'm just so new to this, and most people would have figured this out faster. I didn't figure it out until I listened to The Who's "Baba O' Reilly": the synthesizer track, which sweeps back and forth, felt more narrow on the XS than it did on the Paradox. When I went back to the curious bass tracks and compared them again, it was clear: the XS's imaging/soundstage seemed taller than it was wide and my narrower perception of space on the XS made the bass stand out more.
The above might sound particularly negative, like I'm pointing out some sort of flaw in the XS. But keep in mind that this is a closed supra-aural headphone. It's been my experience that this type of headphone images poorly and even good ones tend to come off flat. The Amperior certainly does. Poor ones come off extremely muddled and confused. Given its headphone type, I found its ability to feel reasonably spacious pretty impressive.
As far as the mids: I rarely listen to purely instrumental music, so mids are important to me. The M-80s did mids very well and the XS continues to do mids very well. The upper mids might be a bit forward; I'll have to confirm that on further listening. If you look through my playlist, its indicative of my genre preferences and I think that the XS sounds very good with the type of rock music I've listened to on it thus far. Both vocal and instrument timbre sound natural and not artificial. Jim Croce and Paul Simon sound fantastic. Lisa Germano sounds ethereal while performing background vocals on Neil Finn's "Turn and Run" and "The Climber," as she should. Isaac Brock's syncopated vocals have all their appropriate squawk. Leonard Cohen's baritone stretches appropriately deep and sounds full on "Avalanche." Ringo Starr probably sounds better than he should on "Act Naturally." His drumstick tapping sounds great too. I plan on listening to some soul today, and I expect Sam Cooke to sound as great as he ought to.
TLDR: After a day of listening, these sound pretty damn good. I'd buy them over the DT1350, Amperior, HD25-II, and of course the original M-80s. Measurements are certainly needed to confirm this, but I think they sound much better than their predecessor. When you say you want a light, fashionable headphone that sounds good for on-the go-use (and works with the V-Moda boom mic) I think these are the headphones you want.
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That bit about the clamp is interesting. So far in my experience with on-ears (not a lot to be honest), the only one that I found to give a good clamp but not hurt my ears are portapros, exactly because the clamp isn't on the ears, but on the temple.
Do you wear glasses, Valentine? If you do, how comfortable is the XS with glasses?
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Thanks for the feedback. I liked the M80, but they never sounded quite "right" to my ears. Listening to Radiohead, for instance, was "fun" but just not the way I think Radiohead is "supposed" to sound.
Then I found the 1350s, fell in love, and haven't looked back.
I wonder if the XS would cause me to rethink things...
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That bit about the clamp is interesting. So far in my experience with on-ears (not a lot to be honest), the only one that I found to give a good clamp but not hurt my ears are portapros, exactly because the clamp isn't on the ears, but on the temple.
Do you wear glasses, Valentine? If you do, how comfortable is the XS with glasses?
I do! I wear a pair of wireframes that look just like these http://www.freepik.com/free-photo/glasses--wireframe_542825.htm (http://www.freepik.com/free-photo/glasses--wireframe_542825.htm)...but wicked worn out because I need to get some replacements.
The comfort is as described with glasses. I'm nearsighted, so I only take my frames off before bed. You're right, the portapros have that wonderful sponge pad right above the earpad that helps quite a bit. Other on-ears generally cause a pinching feeling either:
1. Where the frame rests on the top of the ear. In this case, the cups have too extreme of an angle.
2. Where the frame goes behind the ear, as the ear is clamped against the side of the head. The glasses-frame sandwich. This is just too much raw clamping force.
The XS doesn't do either of these. I even twisted the headband in similar to what Tyll does in this video at 3:56 (the inward twist, to increase the headband clamp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAwm-14yBDc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAwm-14yBDc)). Even with headband adjustment, it doesn't exert real pressure on the ears. Quite the design accomplishment.
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Interesting. I've always wanted a V-Moda headphone mainly because of the custom shield, but both the M80 and M100 aren't doing it for me because of comfort for the former, and sound for the latter.
Now to wait for the XS to come here to some stores.
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Thank you so much, Valentine! Nice write up, i enjoyed reading your impressions like before (read your review of Spirit Pro on HF).
Indeed, those looks like something that would suit me well. Decision made.
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Not a problem iRo. I expect that I'll review these on the other site too. I have to finish my Paradox review and put in more listening on the XS before I get to that. LFF's mod could use a review refresh to remind people that it's still around and really fantastic. There have been *two*...*two* on HF's F/S recently for just below $300 each. That shit is bananas. B a n a n a s. Bananas.
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The way things are looking these will be welcomed in my headphone collection pretty soon. Seems most on-ears have something negative about them one way or another. And i also wear glasses so the fact that it does well with glasses is a big plus, especially for an on-ear. I almost ordered a HD-26 pro but the fact that it has no mic and remote and it makes you look like a borg... fashion is futile.
So yeah i'll probably order tomorrow but for now i will search for some negative reports, hell i might even read the thread on head-fi :)p13
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You can audition the Vmodas (and lots of other headphones) for FREE without even leaving your home and compare them to others:
Alas you cannot test the fit and comfort this way :(
https://soundcloud.com/sonic-sense-pro-audio/sets/headphones-test (https://soundcloud.com/sonic-sense-pro-audio/sets/headphones-test)
Vmodas are on the bottom of that page.
I feel the headphone recordings are reasonably accurate and will at least give a good impression of their sonic signature.
Enjoy....
And while you are at it... don't forget to have a listen to the ATH-M40X and ATHM50X
thanks c61746961 !
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You'd need some seriously neutral headphones for that to work wouldn't you.
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Oh that is interesting, i'll definately play around with that!
Alas though i found something with the XS that might be a problem for me personally, it might be too small for my big head. And since i live in Holland and thus having to order from the US it can be a bit of a gamble.
Current thinking is the momentum on ear, i can check the fit on those out locally and the headband should be able to bend to my preference. Though i'm a bit worried about those alacantra earpads absorbing too much sweat and getting smelly seeing as i'm an avid runner. I reckon they can be washed quite easily though... but still pleather can be wiped off and won't absorb sweat.
Anyways more research and thinking to do, thanks for the tips Solderdude :)
Edit:
You'd need some seriously neutral headphones for that to work wouldn't you.
I reckon you reference it somehow with a headphone you have that is on the list. But yeah nothing beats listening for yourself.
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You'd need some seriously neutral headphones for that to work wouldn't you.
Gross relative differences (>= 4 dB) are pretty easy to spot and not really masked by a reasonably good pair if you are used to their FR, given that they do not roll-off dramatically on either end. I was considering the HD-25, XS, Momentum, DT-250 and others which sadly are not available for audition around these parts, and these recordings helped me pick a pair I believe will satisfy my current needs (M40x), so there's that.
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You'd need some seriously neutral headphones for that to work wouldn't you.
Yes, It is pointless to try to asses the sound of a flagship on a pair of cheap headphones ;D
Of course if you are listening with severely rolled off treble and picked a headphone that is a treble monstrosity you could be hearing decent sound. :-Z
Equally futile to 'asses' the sonic signature of the LCD-3 on a pair of Grados or K500...
It will give you a decent 'impression' of colorations when you are using decent speakers or the better headphones.
Something tells me most pirates (and others in this hobby) have at least a decent pair of speakers or headphones at their disposal. :)p7
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You'd need some seriously neutral headphones for that to work wouldn't you.
Yes, It is pointless to try to asses the sound of a flagship on a pair of cheap headphones ;D
Of course if you are listening with severely rolled off treble and picked a headphone that is a treble monstrosity you could be hearing decent sound. :-Z
Equally futile to 'asses' the sonic signature of the LCD-3 on a pair of Grados or K500...
It will give you a decent 'impression' of colorations when you are using decent speakers or the better headphones.
Something tells me most pirates (and others in this hobby) have at least a decent pair of speakers or headphones at their disposal. :)p7
Now that you mention it, would you like to measure the K500s? One is with stock ear pads and the other (my listening headphone) with K601 ear pads. Post in the Netherlands is swift enough.
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Now that you mention it, would you like to measure the K500s? One is with stock ear pads and the other (my listening headphone) with K601 ear pads. Post in the Netherlands is swift enough.
If you would like them (and or other HP's) measured I can do that and post the results.
No problemo...
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Measurements from Tyll:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/practically-perfect-every-way-v-moda-xs-measurements
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The measurements look promising. A bit more isolation would have been nice.
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Tyll says there's even more bass emphasis on these than on the M80s.
Too bad.
I really WANT to like these headphones...
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Tyll says there's even more bass emphasis on these than on the M80s.
Too bad.
I really WANT to like these headphones...
I encourage you to try the recordings linked above by solderdude, I found it's best to compare each recording to the original using a quick A/B switch such as foobar2000's ABX tool (ReplayGain compensation on). All colorations become readily apparent this way, allowing for a partial assessment of the performance in which most deal-breaking stuff is really easy to spot. The XS were my first choice for portables, but after listening to the recordings I decided I would be bothered by the humped bass and scooped mids.
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I used to have the M80 but there was some fuzziness in the 3-4kHz region that felt a bit off to me. I wonder if that's changed now.
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Tyll says there's even more bass emphasis on these than on the M80s.
Too bad.
I really WANT to like these headphones...
I encourage you to try the recordings linked above by solderdude, I found it's best to compare each recording to the original using a quick A/B switch such as foobar2000's ABX tool (ReplayGain compensation on). All colorations become readily apparent this way, allowing for a partial assessment of the performance in which most deal-breaking stuff is really easy to spot. The XS were my first choice for portables, but after listening to the recordings I decided I would be bothered by the humped bass and scooped mids.
The relationship between the bass/mids is why I ended up not buying the M80s. Was hoping that had changed, but it doesn't appear to be the case.
I'm very pleased with my DT1350s, so I guess it's all fine. I just like Val's attention to detail regarding the physical build of his headphones and keep wanting the sound to be equally good. Which it is for many people, I realize...
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Yes, there's a recession between 150 - 1000 Hz that's more severe than it looks in Tyll's graphs.
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I picked these up last week as part of a neverending quest to find a portable that's comfortable, convenient, sturdy and near-reference quality. Sad to say that the quest will continue. The XS is actually a good, fun sounding headphone with a fairly even and extended treble. The problem, as mentioned by Armaegis and Tyll, is that the 1-3khz region sounds nasty. My naive interpretation of this is that it is due to a breakup mode which is allowed in for purposes of HRTF frequency response compensation and made necessary by the duodiaphragm build (breakup from the smaller diaphragm made worse by its connection to the outer layer that is connected at its circumference, perhaps). I think a similar thing happens with some AKG models and is responsible for their boosted upper mids and periodic ringing. The low-treble/upper mids still sound all right and were it not for simple acoustic guitar and vocalist recordings I might not have been bothered by them. Unfortunately this upper mid annoyance also adds to imperfections in the recording, so if the audio's clipped in that range it will sound even worse.
The bass is elevated but not grossly so, certainly not to the level of the M-100/LP2s. I like a fun little mid bass boost, though in this case it makes what should be punchy sound a little loose.
The build quality, as always with V-moda, is remarkable. The XS is a damn decent deal at a little over 200$.
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I picked these up last week as part of a neverending quest to find a portable that's comfortable, convenient, sturdy and near-reference quality. Sad to say that the quest will continue. The XS is actually a good, fun sounding headphone with a fairly even and extended treble. The problem, as mentioned by Armaegis and Tyll, is that the 1-3khz region sounds nasty. My naive interpretation of this is that it is due to a breakup mode which is allowed in for purposes of HRTF frequency response compensation and made necessary by the duodiaphragm build (breakup from the smaller diaphragm made worse by its connection to the outer layer that is connected at its circumference, perhaps). I think a similar thing happens with some AKG models and is responsible for their boosted upper mids and periodic ringing. The low-treble/upper mids still sound all right and were it not for simple acoustic guitar and vocalist recordings I might not have been bothered by them. Unfortunately this upper mid annoyance also adds to imperfections in the recording, so if the audio's clipped in that range it will sound even worse.
The bass is elevated but not grossly so, certainly not to the level of the M-100/LP2s. I like a fun little mid bass boost, though in this case it makes what should be punchy sound a little loose.
The build quality, as always with V-moda, is remarkable. The XS is a damn decent deal at a little over 200$.
Maybe it's due time for a Franken-portable (XS's body, and maybe I dunno a Koss KSC75 or 35 driver, plus some damping).
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Maybe there's some way to dampen the diaphragm with a coat of something. These cans are already very sensitive so I don't think there would be much of a practical penalty in terms of efficiency.
Either way it definitely looks like there's room to add damping and/or switch out the drivers.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/4/4f/4f00a9dc_VModa_M80V80_photo_inside.jpeg)
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Looks like a good modding candidate. I bet you could smooth out some of those nasty spots. Also, Tyll's measurements reminded me of the CAL!, but with a worse FR and slightly better THD.
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Those are M80s, right? Do you find the bass level on the XS to be (far) more restrained than the M80? That was the impression that I got with my brief listen to the XS. As mentioned by others the XS does seem to have less clamping force which might mean a weaker seal. I finally gave my M80s away because the bass was just too much for me. It might have been my imagination but the bass seemed to be getting worse (heavier) towards the end. I was thinking that maybe the pads we just conforming and I was getting a 'better' seal.
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Maybe it's due time for a Franken-portable (XS's body, and maybe I dunno a Koss KSC75 or 35 driver, plus some damping).
I did do this once upon a time...
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/773637/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)
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Those are M80s, right? Do you find the bass level on the XS to be (far) more restrained than the M80? That was the impression that I got with my brief listen to the XS. As mentioned by others the XS does seem to have less clamping force which might mean a weaker seal. I finally gave my M80s away because the bass was just too much for me. It might have been my imagination but the bass seemed to be getting worse (heavier) towards the end. I was thinking that maybe the pads we just conforming and I was getting a 'better' seal.
I've only heard the M80 at stores/meets, so I doubt I can accurately judge the difference. From what I remember of the M80, the XS actually has a greater bass emphasis, though this could be due to auditioning the M80 in fairly noisy places rather than at home as with the XS. Also getting a pretty solid seal with the XS, though this too could be attributed to their newness vs the other M80s and the fact that my head is larger than average. Both have good bass, but I wouldn't go so far as to say great. Both the DT1350 and the HP50 have perceptibly tighter bass. HTH
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Maybe it's due time for a Franken-portable (XS's body, and maybe I dunno a Koss KSC75 or 35 driver, plus some damping).
I did do this once upon a time...
(http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/773637/width/350/height/700/flags/LL)
Was the experiment successful?
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Yes and no. (incidentally this was in an LP, not M80 or XS)
I managed to fit the driver into the existing baffle, but the driver is too big and covers most of the holes to screw down the baffle into the cup. Only 2 out of 7 holes were available, which left the baffle poorly sealed to the cup. The cup is also really too shallow to hold the driver and there's no breathing room at all, and the little that's there is uneven anyways, and a rather herculean effort with a dremel grinding out practically everything in the shell is required. I imagine if one could use a 3d printer (or good plastic/woodworking skills) to make a new baffle with a bit more clearance and finagle a new way to attach it things would be a lot better.
I played with a few damping schemes and ultimately just went with some acoustic foam and fiber filler in the cup, and some soft felt in front of the driver for simplicity. Oh and drilled a small hole in the cup. I think there was something else I'm forgetting, but that's the gist of it. It was decent sounding; better than a regular LP (not saying much there), but not nearly as good as a typical modded T50rp.
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Just got a pair of these myself and am more than slightly pleasantly surprised.
Decided to purchase a pair direct from V-Moda on a whim. One of the first headphones I ever purchased was the V Moda LP2, and while I don't think it sounded particularly good the build quality and packaging was amazing.
First impressions are quite favorable at $200. The biggest plus is V-Moda did something brilliant about the clamp. The pressure is very evenly distributed and it's likely the most comfortable on-ear I've ever experienced. The foldability and durability are big pluses as well. Soundstage isn't very airy and sounds compact, but detail is quite good and the overall sound signature is non fatiguing - I still prefer the HD 598 at this price point for an at-home headphone, but if you're looking for something to use on the go, I can give these a hearty two thumbs up.
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I've been using the XS since launch. I got rid of my IEMs due to comfort issues for me. Feather light and can be worn for 3-4 hours at a time. These are my travel HPs and in the gym as well.
There is a touch of warmth but overall the SQ is very good with very decent extension both ways. The bass will kick in when present in the recording.
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In case any of you have owned the HD25 and DT1350 I have a question. Is the XS like a good DT1350 that sounds more even than a wonky HD25? If the XS is at least DT1350 good and has a "pleasant clamp" while still isolating enough I am interested in auditioning it.
Besides, it folds p:3