CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on November 29, 2011, 07:21:43 AM

Title: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Marvey on November 29, 2011, 07:21:43 AM
By special request. Fostex T50RP FR with comparisons to another T50RP mod and LCD2 and LCD3. I didn’t realize the LCD3 is even more shelved than an LCD2. I thought so at the meet, but I didn't want to believe it. This is why measurements are always good. They don’t let our wishful thinking get the better of us.

Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17.0;attach=12;image)

Mystery Fostex T50RP modified
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17.0;attach=16;image)

Audeze LCD-2 revision 1 frequency response (known good pair)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17.0;attach=170;image)

Audeze LCD-3 frequency response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17.0;attach=14;image)
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: timjthomas on November 29, 2011, 11:15:05 AM
Very interesting (or should I say revealing) graphs!!
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: rhythmdevils on November 29, 2011, 09:45:10 PM
So with your compensation, are you aiming for the ideal to be a flat line like it is with speakers?  As opposed to the Headroom and Innerfidelity graphs that have compensation, but still need to be interpreted (they're not actually "zeroed out" with the human ear and ideal is still not flat)

The reason I ask is because LFF says his T50rp's are really flat, and I've never seen an HP graph as flat as those.  Other graphs would show "ideal looking dips and peaks"
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: LFF on November 29, 2011, 11:06:00 PM
So with your compensation, are you aiming for the ideal to be a flat line like it is with speakers?  As opposed to the Headroom and Innerfidelity graphs that have compensation, but still need to be interpreted (they're not actually "zeroed out" with the human ear and ideal is still not flat)

The reason I ask is because LFF says his T50rp's are really flat, and I've never seen an HP graph as flat as those.  Other graphs would show "ideal looking dips and peaks"

Good question.

That's how they sound to me....flat.

There are going to be 10 pairs in the wild after Friday.  :)  Hopefully some show up at meets.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: rhythmdevils on November 30, 2011, 12:25:49 AM
Cool, is someone going into production?  Do you need beta testers?  :-) 

I drilled holes into the back of my T50rp (like I do with all my orthos) and it produced very strange effect.  FR was fine, but the imaging got really wonky.  not something I've experienced with any of the vintage orthos I've drilled.  I think these drivers were designed to have some resistance in the enclosure behind them (small damped vent).  I'll have to post pics in the big thread.  But I just ordered another stock pair and I'll be doing my own thing probably with no clay or akasa. 
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: LFF on November 30, 2011, 12:41:34 AM
Cool, is someone going into production?  Do you need beta testers?  :-) 

I drilled holes into the back of my T50rp (like I do with all my orthos) and it produced very strange effect.  FR was fine, but the imaging got really wonky.  not something I've experienced with any of the vintage orthos I've drilled.  I think these drivers were designed to have some resistance in the enclosure behind them (small damped vent).  I'll have to post pics in the big thread.  But I just ordered another stock pair and I'll be doing my own thing probably with no clay or akasa.

Good luck!.... ;)
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: abhinit90 on November 30, 2011, 02:19:23 PM
Great, these graphs show a lot, I'm particularly amazed by the flatness of LFF's mod.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: timjthomas on November 30, 2011, 08:26:00 PM
So, how do the frequency plots "differ" from the waterfall plots?  Are they used together or is one "more useful" than the other?

-Tim
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: Marvey on December 01, 2011, 12:01:40 AM
FR graphs with CSDs provide us with a lot of info. I'll crank out more stuff tonight. Think of the CSDs as sort of an FR over time...

The third graph (or sets of graphs) I would like to produce would be full spectrum distortion graphs at varying frequencies or sets of frequencies. These are a major pain to produce though. You might see a few here and there though.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: Marvey on December 01, 2011, 12:29:30 AM
So with your compensation, are you aiming for the ideal to be a flat line like it is with speakers?  As opposed to the Headroom and Innerfidelity graphs that have compensation, but still need to be interpreted (they're not actually "zeroed out" with the human ear and ideal is still not flat)

The reason I ask is because LFF says his T50rp's are really flat, and I've never seen an HP graph as flat as those.  Other graphs would show "ideal looking dips and peaks"

Yes - these are my initial calibrations based on the massive amount of data I've collected from both solid plate and open measurements. Some tweaks have been applied in comparing with my DIY near-field monitors which measure flat at the listening position. I will post more later on this.

I've held off from posting FR graphs for the longest time, but I figure the the stuff I have doesn't have a lot the irregularities that are out there and more data points wouldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: timjthomas on December 03, 2011, 10:48:49 AM
A couple of days ago was an early Christmas, as when I returned home from work a package sat upon my porch.  Carefully opening revealed a present from from Santa LFF - a brand new set of Paradox T50RP headphones!!!
I will most a more complete review in a few weeks when I've had more time to listen to the Paradox's.  However, last night I used them to listen to the Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions Revisited.  This is a CD I have listened to many many times.

I only have one thing to say about the Paradox's:  HOLY SH_T!!!!  These are without a doubt, the clearest most resolving headphones I have ever heard.  Although I've listened to this CD dozens of times with my HD580's, K701's as well as Grado RS-2 and from my speakers, I am hearing sounds I have never heard before -- the intake of breath, subtle nuances to the decay of cymbals, etc.

In addition to sounding crystal clear (I can think of no better way than to say the headphones simply get out of they way of the music), they are very comfortable.  Most likely due to the large suspension band, after a few minutes on my head, I forget that they are even there.

Fantastic job Luis, just fantastic!!  I could not be happier.

More to come in a few weeks. . .

-Tim

Note that I originally posted this review at Head-fi (post #5231): http://www.head-fi.org/t/452404/just-listened-to-some-fostex-t50rps-today-wow/5220#post_7936071 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/452404/just-listened-to-some-fostex-t50rps-today-wow/5220#post_7936071)
 
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Marvey on December 03, 2011, 08:24:59 PM
I'm glad you are enjoying them! I have to admit that I have a tendency to poo-poo them because of their modest cost, but every time Luis brings them over, I can't but help feel the same way as you.

They are incredibly neutral with a very slight dark emphasis. They have more treble air than the FR graphs suggest too. I would never dare say any of these things on HF because people would never believe me.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: timjthomas on December 04, 2011, 12:52:51 AM
I'm glad you are enjoying them! I have to admit that I have a tendency to poo-poo them because of their modest cost, but every time Luis brings them over, I can't but help feel the same way as you.

They are incredibly neutral with a very slight dark emphasis. They have more treble air than the FR graphs suggest too. I would never dare say any of these things on HF because people would never believe me.

 :)
I think it just goes to show that good audio does not (necessarily) require high cost.  I suspect that the driver's in the T50RPs are likely as good as almost any other out there.

The same thing seems to happen with speakers.  I've heard some $20K speakers that do not sound anywhere near as good as the $1,600 Fritz Carbon 7s I use.

I am sure it is similar for amps as well. 

That being said, if someone is happy with there uber expensive gear, more power too them.  As long as they don't shit all over the lower cost stuff just because it's lower cost.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: LFF on December 04, 2011, 02:05:09 AM
Hey guys....I really appreciate the kind words.  :)
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: donunus on August 15, 2012, 01:26:33 PM
The paradox and the Orpheus are probably the best looking graphs I've seen. Damn! LFF is da bomb!
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Hands on August 16, 2012, 12:46:31 AM
The paradox and the Orpheus are probably the best looking graphs I've seen. Damn! LFF is da bomb!

I apply a teeny-tiny bit of EQ to my Paradox based on these graphs. No more than 1db either way (according to the foobar2000 EQ) in just a few spots. I generally poop my pants a little every time I listen.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Marvey on August 16, 2012, 01:03:01 AM
LOL. I still need to mod the monoprice. Still on my list of things to do, but the meet planning is driving me nuts!
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: grev on August 16, 2012, 01:23:26 AM
LFF, I'll get the paradox in about a month's time.  :)p1
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Hands on August 16, 2012, 03:30:59 AM
LOL. I still need to mod the monoprice. Still on my list of things to do, but the meet planning is driving me nuts!

Haha, no worries. I'm in no hurry.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Deep Funk on August 16, 2012, 08:19:54 AM
Very impressive, the HD600 should come close otherwise...
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox frequency response and comparisons
Post by: ihasmario on August 16, 2012, 12:57:12 PM
So with your compensation, are you aiming for the ideal to be a flat line like it is with speakers?  As opposed to the Headroom and Innerfidelity graphs that have compensation, but still need to be interpreted (they're not actually "zeroed out" with the human ear and ideal is still not flat)

The reason I ask is because LFF says his T50rp's are really flat, and I've never seen an HP graph as flat as those.  Other graphs would show "ideal looking dips and peaks"

Good question.

That's how they sound to me....flat.

There are going to be 10 pairs in the wild after Friday.  :)  Hopefully some show up at meets.

The problem with the term flat is that, even when you take an objective stance, there are multiple ways to achieve flat; free field, diffuse field, and so on. The culture of frequency compensation (to make it easier for people who don't understand headphone graphs) only allows one of these to "look flat".

It certainly looks that they are  neutral to this HRTF, while something else could be neutral to another
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: doublea71 on September 12, 2012, 06:45:50 AM
How much for a pair of these Paradox mods? Are there any threads with a list of all the mods done for this particular version?
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Dyaems on September 12, 2012, 06:54:32 AM
How much for a pair of these Paradox mods? Are there any threads with a list of all the mods done for this particular version?

you can pm LFF for it. and there are no list of mods done for the Paradox
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: AstralStorm on November 30, 2012, 07:14:55 AM
Is the Paradox mod open for experimentation or super secret sauce?

(Because I will be scoring some cheap T50RP.)
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Cristello on November 30, 2012, 08:29:25 PM
very secret sauce, indeed!

(I do have some idea of what might be involved based on the measurements here and @Innerfidelity, but for LFF's sake I shall not post further speculation...)
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Lizardking1 on December 08, 2012, 11:24:27 PM
you can pm LFF for it. and there are no list of mods done for the Paradox

I thought referencesounds.com was made by LFF making it more official than a forum PM. Or is it someone else's take on making the Paradox?
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: CCS on December 10, 2012, 01:50:19 AM
Purrin, did you listen to the Mad Dogs as well? And if so, what is your take on the Mad Dogs vs LFF's Paradox? They are obviously quite different, but the FR of the Mad Dogs does not look too out of sorts. I am also curious about Paradox and/or Mad Dogs vs HD600/650.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Hands on December 10, 2012, 06:17:34 AM
Purrin, did you listen to the Mad Dogs as well? And if so, what is your take on the Mad Dogs vs LFF's Paradox? They are obviously quite different, but the FR of the Mad Dogs does not look too out of sorts. I am also curious about Paradox and/or Mad Dogs vs HD600/650.

I have both (well, waiting on my MDs to return) and can offer up some comparisons later. The MDs in their current state are much closer to the Paradox than you might think.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: CCS on December 10, 2012, 02:17:21 PM
Purrin, did you listen to the Mad Dogs as well? And if so, what is your take on the Mad Dogs vs LFF's Paradox? They are obviously quite different, but the FR of the Mad Dogs does not look too out of sorts. I am also curious about Paradox and/or Mad Dogs vs HD600/650.

I have both (well, waiting on my MDs to return) and can offer up some comparisons later. The MDs in their current state are much closer to the Paradox than you might think.

I would appreciate that. Please share your thoughts sometime after you get your MDs back. Thanks.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: stratocaster on December 10, 2012, 03:05:04 PM
I am sorry, but I have to say that I would prefer measurements. Of the Mad Dogs compared to the Paradox. I have learned to mistrust impressions. Not only because I have found out that every too often I have not been able to share people's impressions once I heard praised headphones myself. Also, because I have learned it it's NOT sensible to trust your impressions of a specific headphone at a specific time in specific situations. If you unconsiously want something to sound great, it will. And only over time you realize that you did not get the right picture.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Hands on December 10, 2012, 05:20:25 PM
I am sorry, but I have to say that I would prefer measurements. Of the Mad Dogs compared to the Paradox. I have learned to mistrust impressions. Not only because I have found out that every too often I have not been able to share people's impressions once I heard praised headphones myself. Also, because I have learned it it's NOT sensible to trust your impressions of a specific headphone at a specific time in specific situations. If you unconsiously want something to sound great, it will. And only over time you realize that you did not get the right picture.

I am using or have measurements of both from a few different people/setups. Why are you assuming I do not? :P I can't give all of the details, unfortunately, and I did have to do a lot of inference across different graphs, but I'm fairly certain they measure and sound much more similarly than not. I did not say they measure or sound identically, and I also did not say one was better than the other. This is, of course, going off the latest "revision" of the MDs. I do, however, think the MDs get an unnecessary level of criticism. Yes, I'm aware of the name and the stickers. ;) They are horribad, but at least they don't affect the sound!

I want you to understand that I am on the same page as you. I generally don't trust impressions anymore these days. I can promise you that I have tried to back up my claims as comprehensively as possible with data and measurements. I am hoping that purrin can measure the pair of MDs I got (one of the main reasons I purchased them, honestly) and my Paradox so I can verify or discredit my thoughts on the matter.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: stratocaster on December 10, 2012, 06:17:04 PM
As I said, I would love to see measurements of both. On the same system. I am not asuming anything, not about the Mad Dogs, since I have not heard them, and I am also not asuming that your impressions could be unreasonable or wrong. Yet again, I would be interested to see how they compare objectively.
Personally, I do not care about whether a set of headphones has ridiculous stickers or not, if they look superb or not. It is the sound (plus comfort maybe) that matters. And, I am a 100% open to good headphones, be they Paradox or Mad Dogs. I would be really happy to see the Mad Dogs measure nicely on the same system on which the Paradox were put to the test. Although I do own and happen to appreciate the Paradox, I am not on a crusade to defend them.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Hands on December 10, 2012, 07:12:50 PM
As I said, I would love to see measurements of both. On the same system. I am not asuming anything, not about the Mad Dogs, since I have not heard them, and I am also not asuming that your impressions could be unreasonable or wrong. Yet again, I would be interested to see how they compare objectively.
Personally, I do not care about whether a set of headphones has ridiculous stickers or not, if they look superb or not. It is the sound (plus comfort maybe) that matters. And, I am a 100% open to good headphones, be they Paradox or Mad Dogs. I would be really happy to see the Mad Dogs measure nicely on the same system on which the Paradox were put to the test. Although I do own and happen to appreciate the Paradox, I am not on a crusade to defend them.

Yes, hopefully purrin will be interested in measuring them at some point. :) I've noticed that Dan's measurements tend to look similar to Tyll's in many ways. I've been watching the progression of the MDs for a while now, including measurements Dan puts out for them. I think his most recent measurements of the MD look similar to how the Paradox measures on Tyll's setup. Again, I know you can't make direct comparisons like that, but at least a bit of information can be gained. I do need more data to confirm or deny my claims, though!
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: CCS on December 11, 2012, 01:20:31 AM
Tyll has measured a pair of Paradox as well as (I believe a slightly older revision) MDs. Minus some poor driver matching, the MDs seem to perform quite well, and have a relatively similar frequency response. Bit of a weird rise from 50Hz-100Hz, but everything else looks pretty good. Also pretty poor THD performance at 100 dB, but I almost never listen that loud and its 90 dB distortion looks much better, below 1% throughout and often reaches down to 0.5%. Not too bad, I'd say.

P.S. Not sure which Paradox is the correct one, so I included both the w/ socks and w/o socks models. I would be interested to see the more recent Mad Dog w/ Dog Pads graph to compare. I would like to believe that it performs better than the one presented here, but I couldn't say so with any certainty.

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersMadDogA.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexT50RPDIYModifiedLFFnosocks.pdf

http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FostexT50RPDIYModifiedLFFwithsocks.pdf

Edit: As far as I can tell, the only thing that is really detrimental to Mad Dog's performance here is the poor driver matching in the bass, as hans and I have mentioned. The person who runs the service and performs the mods has addressed the issue, and it sounds as if this problem is not something that most users will have to deal with. The Mad Dogs probably do not outperform the Paradox, and may even be slightly inferior, but it does not seem that they are too far behind... It would seem, therefore, that the Mad Dogs are not a bad choice for those whose budget cannot handle the Paradox. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Hands on December 11, 2012, 08:04:28 AM
Yes, that should be an older version with the 840 pads. I also believe Dan said that particular pair had issues in the bass. I should probably dig through the MD thread on HF for old and new measurements Dan put out.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Deep Funk on December 11, 2012, 03:53:01 PM
I give a headphone a try for a day or two, just listening. If you don't like the headphone you'll take it off and ignore its existence.

Of course measurements do add...
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Valentin Hogea on December 19, 2012, 12:00:35 PM
Just received my Paradox... Very-very impressed. Impressions after longer listening to follow in 4-5 weeks.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: stratocaster on December 19, 2012, 06:05:09 PM
I do like the Paradox. I bought a used pair (#27) and I am quite satisfied with it, as I already pointed out in various threads. this has not changed.

There is just on thing I am wondering about. I recall LFF mentioning that the Paradox are hermetically sealed, this being a prerequisite of perfect performance. But when I blow through the cup vents of my P., I notice that air is entering the cups and exiting through that little hole on top of the cups (the one through which the small cable that connects the cups enters). In addition the baffle bass vent is open. Conclusion: I am wondering why LFF says they are hermetically sealed. At least MY baffle vents are open, the cup vents (must at least partially  be) as well.

Maybe LFF can clarify.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Hands on December 20, 2012, 02:07:35 AM
I do like the Paradox. I bought a used pair (#27) and I am quite satisfied with it, as I already pointed out in various threads. this has not changed.

There is just on thing I am wondering about. I recall LFF mentioning that the Paradox are hermetically sealed, this being a prerequisite of perfect performance. But when I blow through the cup vents of my P., I notice that air is entering the cups and exiting through that little hole on top of the cups (the one through which the small cable that connects the cups enters). In addition the baffle bass vent is open. Conclusion: I am wondering why LFF says they are hermetically sealed. At least MY baffle vents are open, the cup vents (must at least partially  be) as well.

Maybe LFF can clarify.

I can verify that mine are the same way. Pair No. 18. Got them new closer to the beginning of this year. There is also no resistance if you lightly blow through the 3.5mm jack (lips sealed around it). I can't tell if my baffle port is sealed or not. No sealant over it like the screw holes, but I looked in it with a flashlight, and I looked like there might have been something in it. Too hard to tell, didn't mess with it any further than that.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Valentin Hogea on December 21, 2012, 08:41:42 AM
They're not too shabby looking either...

(http://i45.tinypic.com/2yvpgrd.jpg)
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Solderdude on December 21, 2012, 10:37:44 AM
You cannot hermetically seal headphones ...  ;)
Ofcourse technically it could be done, but varying air pressure around you says you shouldn't for obvious reasons.
A bit silly to mention they are hermetically sealed though when there are openings (original 3.5mm socket) it is by definition not hermetically sealed, I would leave out the 'hermetical' part.  :)p17

a white version with black rods ? ... neat
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: stratocaster on December 21, 2012, 11:54:25 AM
Link: http://www.head-fi.org/t/452404/just-listened-to-some-fostex-t50rps-today-wow/9030#post_8582955 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/452404/just-listened-to-some-fostex-t50rps-today-wow/9030#post_8582955)
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: wiinippongamer on December 21, 2012, 04:49:57 PM
 popcorn
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: LFF on December 21, 2012, 06:40:56 PM
Maybe LFF can clarify.

Part of the art of tuning the damn things.   ;)

Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Sphinxvc on December 21, 2012, 07:26:15 PM
That's a sexy photo Valentin.  I'm glad I was eventually able to get one.  A 'premium' model that's out for delivery right now!  Serial#001 apparently, LFF hope you put some extra love into that one.  =]
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: LFF on December 21, 2012, 08:51:53 PM
That's a sexy photo Valentin.  I'm glad I was eventually able to get one.  A 'premium' model that's out for delivery right now!  Serial#001 apparently, LFF hope you put some extra love into that one.  =]

Nope.

They all get the exact same amount of love.  ;)
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Sphinxvc on December 22, 2012, 08:35:25 PM
Okay, one word: dope.  For anyone on the fence, these are a screaming bargain.  I'm impressed how detail retrieval increases with just a flat response.  No personality whatsoever, no distinguishing characteristics, and kind of boring in that regard if you are more into gear than music. 
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: mechgamer123 on December 22, 2012, 10:40:59 PM
Okay, one word: dope.  For anyone on the fence, these are a screaming bargain.  I'm impressed how detail retrieval increases with just a flat response.  No personality whatsoever, no distinguishing characteristics, and kind of boring in that regard if you are more into gear than music.
Which headphones are you referring to?
Also @Hans: Did you ever get your MDs back to do some comparisons with the paradox?
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Hands on December 23, 2012, 12:14:37 AM
Okay, one word: dope.  For anyone on the fence, these are a screaming bargain.  I'm impressed how detail retrieval increases with just a flat response.  No personality whatsoever, no distinguishing characteristics, and kind of boring in that regard if you are more into gear than music.
Which headphones are you referring to?
Also @Hans: Did you ever get your MDs back to do some comparisons with the paradox?

Yes, I have just been too lazy to write something up. I very, very slightly prefer the Paradox, but I couldn't justify the difference in the price in the end. Main difference is that the Paradox is slightly more elevated than the MD around 80-300Hz, but the MD has a slight dip in the 40-80Hz range. I've always thought the Paradox had a slight emphasis in that area I mentioned, and I've had it confirmed for me through an alternative source. Either way, I'd ultimately prefer something in-between, but both are easily "fixed" with a tiny bit of EQ. They're much more similar than not.

I'll probably sell both down the road and just mod my own again. To be honest, I find neither "magical" from a sound or price perspective. Both seem to get too much hype either way. I find it a bit sad that I have to pay $300+ to get decent, neutral sound in the end. More of a reflection of the industry/market than anything else, though. Rambling now...
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: mechgamer123 on December 23, 2012, 07:44:21 AM
Okay, one word: dope.  For anyone on the fence, these are a screaming bargain.  I'm impressed how detail retrieval increases with just a flat response.  No personality whatsoever, no distinguishing characteristics, and kind of boring in that regard if you are more into gear than music.
Which headphones are you referring to?
Also @Hans: Did you ever get your MDs back to do some comparisons with the paradox?

Yes, I have just been too lazy to write something up. I very, very slightly prefer the Paradox, but I couldn't justify the difference in the price in the end. Main difference is that the Paradox is slightly more elevated than the MD around 80-300Hz, but the MD has a slight dip in the 40-80Hz range. I've always thought the Paradox had a slight emphasis in that area I mentioned, and I've had it confirmed for me through an alternative source. Either way, I'd ultimately prefer something in-between, but both are easily "fixed" with a tiny bit of EQ. They're much more similar than not.

I'll probably sell both down the road and just mod my own again. To be honest, I find neither "magical" from a sound or price perspective. Both seem to get too much hype either way. I find it a bit sad that I have to pay $300+ to get decent, neutral sound in the end. More of a reflection of the industry/market than anything else, though. Rambling now...
Hmm, I'll be interested to see how these sound to me when I get them on Monday.
If they don't sound much better than my HD600s, I may end up returning them and get an HE400 or something else...
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Sphinxvc on December 23, 2012, 03:26:11 PM
Well, I appreciate all the little extras of high end phones, but I always thought an even response should be requisite once past a certain price point.  Unfortunately what's ideal in my head doesn't match up w. reality.  I'm copy pasting this list of phones I've owned from my HF profile:

Previous: Koss ESP950s, Sennheiser HD800, Hifiman HE-6, Audez'e LCD-2 (Rev. 2 w/ LCD-3 pads), AKG K1000, Hifiman HE-500s [loaner], (self-modded) Fostex T50RPs, Brainwavz B2, Hifiman HE-5LEs, AKG K701s, Sennheiser HD650s (x2), Sennheiser HD600s, Brainwavz B2s, Earsonics SM3s, Hifiman RE-252s, Hifiman RE-262s, Ultimate Ears Triple Fis (x2), Hifiman RE-Zeros, Etymotic ER4P, Westone UM3X, Sennheiser CX 985, and Klipsch S4s

Of all the fullsize above, save for the ESP 950s which I found too rolled off in both directions, the Paradox has everything beat for evenness of response.  I think the "hype" which there really wasn't much of to begin with (considering that I had to PM a couple of people to figure out details + order) is well deserved.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Deep Funk on December 23, 2012, 03:40:53 PM
Have you tried a vintage AKG from a seventies amplifier? My old Sansui kicked some live into my beloved K240 DF...
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Sphinxvc on December 23, 2012, 05:44:58 PM
If you're talking to me, I haven't.  But a local builder built a really cool tube amp just for his 600ohm K240 DFs last year, and I had a chance to hear it, some of the nicest vocals I can remember hearing. 
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Hands on December 23, 2012, 07:03:52 PM
Of all the fullsize above, save for the ESP 950s which I found too rolled off in both directions, the Paradox has everything beat for evenness of response.  I think the "hype" which there really wasn't much of to begin with (considering that I had to PM a couple of people to figure out details + order) is well deserved.

lolwut, not much hype to begin with for the Paradox? Many people might still be unsure of how to get them, but there is generally a lot of hype around them. They deserve great praise, and there is no doubt about that, but there is certainly hype surrounding them. BTW, "hype" to me is not necessarily a negative thing...just wanted to point that out. I know people all have slightly different ideas of what the word means.

I stand by my opinion that the MD in its current state is quite close to the Paradox, enough to the point where I can't justify the extra $150-200. I have third party measurements confirming this (sorry, private business, and not at my request). I'm hoping purrin will measure a new MD in the future so that something will be publicly available (I've offered several times). As I've stated, I find neither to be perfect. Something in-between would suit me best. I EQ both either way to account for their very minor deficiencies, so I might as well save some money!

I honestly just think it's sad I have to pay $300 or more to get genuinely good, neutral-ish sound without any outstanding issues. With the T50RP going for $75-125 and modding materials costing less than $100 generally, I can't believe that large companies are still offering the shit they do for crazy prices. It makes no sense to me, which is why, as mentioned, I'll probably sell both down the road (already working on selling my Paradox) and just mod my own T50RP again now that I have a better idea what I'm doing.

Don't get me wrong...I know Luis and Dan put a lot of work and heart into their products, but I think it's sad that I have to rely on DIY products because big companies have a hard time putting out decent products at decent prices. It's quite clear that they COULD do it...they just don't. I do appreciate that people are stepping in and trying to offer what companies choose not to, though, and I've done my best to try and support their work by purchasing their products enthusiastically. Either way, this is getting really off topic and more to deal with the industry as a whole than anything else.

Long story short, they're both great products that deserve praise (I will never understand the weird animosity towards the MD on this forum...seems counter-intuitive to the ideals and philosophies behind the community), but I'm going to try to save myself some money down the road and go the DIY route again. It takes time, work, and patience, but it's easier to get great sound out of the T50RP that matches the MD or Paradox than people might think, especially with all of the information available today (such as BMF's work).

That's just my two cents. I might not be happy with the current headphone industry/market and pricing, but you can't go wrong with either product IMO!
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Deep Funk on December 23, 2012, 10:34:31 PM
If you're talking to me, I haven't.  But a local builder built a really cool tube amp just for his 600ohm K240 DFs last year, and I had a chance to hear it, some of the nicest vocals I can remember hearing.

My Sansui AU-217 was an old integrated solid state. Nevertheless you understand why some people get hooked on them...
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: Sphinxvc on December 23, 2012, 11:13:43 PM
If you're talking to me, I haven't.  But a local builder built a really cool tube amp just for his 600ohm K240 DFs last year, and I had a chance to hear it, some of the nicest vocals I can remember hearing.

My Sansui AU-217 was an old integrated solid state. Nevertheless you understand why some people get hooked on them...

Yup.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: stratocaster on December 24, 2012, 05:36:11 AM

Not much hype to begin with for the Paradox? Many people might still be unsure of how to get them, but there is generally a lot of hype around them. They deserve great praise, and there is no doubt about that, but there is certainly hype surrounding them.

I stand by my opinion that the MD in its current state is quite close to the Paradox, enough to the point where I can't justify the extra $150-200. I have third party measurements confirming this (sorry, private business, and not at my request). I'm hoping purrin will measure a new MD in the future so that something will be publicly available (I've offered several times). As I've stated, I find neither to be perfect. Something in-between would suit me best. I EQ both either way to account for their very minor deficiencies, so I might as well save some money!


I would also be very intersted in measurements of all three modifications (Paradox, MadDog, BMF's) on the SAME SYSTEM. I just own the Paradox and haven't heard the others. I have learned to be very critical of subjective impressions and cannot stand  people who haven't heard a headphone condemning  or praising the very same headphone. I am all for talking facts.

Lots of people have modded their T50RPs, and - because of not having neither measurements of their mods nor a neutral reference - some might already have achieved a great sound without realizing it. The Paradox, I think, are such a reference headphone. People can use its sound as a reference to compare any mods they are trying with. 

I have modded my own T50RPs and, to my ears, I have come VERY close to the Paradox' sound. But without the P as a reference I would probably not have realized how good it is.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: D. Lopez on June 10, 2013, 08:54:00 PM
I do like the Paradox. I bought a used pair (#27) and I am quite satisfied with it, as I already pointed out in various threads. this has not changed.

There is just on thing I am wondering about. I recall LFF mentioning that the Paradox are hermetically sealed, this being a prerequisite of perfect performance. But when I blow through the cup vents of my P., I notice that air is entering the cups and exiting through that little hole on top of the cups (the one through which the small cable that connects the cups enters). In addition the baffle bass vent is open. Conclusion: I am wondering why LFF says they are hermetically sealed. At least MY baffle vents are open, the cup vents (must at least partially  be) as well.

Maybe LFF can clarify.

I can verify that mine are the same way. Pair No. 18. Got them new closer to the beginning of this year. There is also no resistance if you lightly blow through the 3.5mm jack (lips sealed around it). I can't tell if my baffle port is sealed or not. No sealant over it like the screw holes, but I looked in it with a led flashlight (http://www.robustbuy.com/led-lighting-gadgets-led-flashlights-c-505_1027_730.html), and I looked like there might have been something in it. Too hard to tell, didn't mess with it any further than that.

I have bought my one in this month and it is quite good. I got a new one, I don't like to mess with any of my stuff.
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: ultrabike on November 06, 2013, 05:25:40 AM
Adding LCD-2 measurements and impressions from the SD Coronado meet.

These sounded great out of Craig's 2A3, and shamed the LCD-X that was going around. Most other LCD-2s, which tend to be abundant at meets, sounded dark and boring to me. However, I did not feel these were dark sounding at all.

I wouldn't call them neutral however. Mids were somewhat scooped IMO, but somehow the cans were fun... maybe a little u-shaped, but not fatiguing at all.

Frequency Response

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17.0;attach=4429;image)

CSD right

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17.0;attach=4431;image)

CSD left

(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17.0;attach=4433;image)
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: MuZo2 on March 03, 2014, 02:58:36 PM
I can't believe how flat LFF has tuned paradox. Do they need lot of amping ?
Title: Re: Fostex T50RP Paradox, LCD-2, LCD-3 Frequency Response
Post by: LFF on March 03, 2014, 05:14:31 PM
I can't believe how flat LFF has tuned paradox. Do they need lot of amping ?

Thanks. 14 years of mastering and sound restoration experience went into the Paradox. I made it for myself in order to monitor my work. I never really intended to sell them.

As for amping, you can listen to them straight from an ipod or Clip+. They will sound good. However, they love and reward good, clean power and scale up really well.